Pivot - How Facebook and Twitter are dealing with racist posts and Friend of Pivot Baratunde Thurston on why “now is the time to step up, show up, or shut up”

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about how protests have played out across the country and corporations responses. As US citizens take to the streets to protest police officers killing black people, Facebook workers go on strike. Then, they are joined by Friend of Pivot, activist, comedian, writer and producer Baratunde Thurston who clarifies how the protests are playing out on social media. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. I think we just should get into this rather than chitty chat because this is really the only story. If we talk about big stories, it's the only story, which is civil unrest hits the United States of America in a massive dose. We watched it unfold on social media, on cable, everywhere. The killing of George Floyd on top of years of social media videos that show black people dying at the hands of police led to national protests in Minneapolis, Atlanta, New York, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, and the list goes on. Social media platforms Facebook and Twitter are central to our understanding of how this is unfolding and a place for a lot of misinformation.

By the way, dozens of Facebook employees did a virtual walkout today, Monday, after the company refused to take down Trump's inflammatory posts about protesters over the weekend. Meanwhile, the president moved to an underground bunker, which apparently still has Twitter access because he tweeted that he will be adding Antifa to the United States terrorist list. He also tweeted fake news, etc., etc. Finally, there are also concerns that pictures of protesters on platforms could be used by police using facial recognition technology. Scott, I don't know where to start. This has been something we actually talked about on a show last week about some predictions you had heard about from, I think

it was a bank or another big business. So let's talk a little bit about it. What's your reaction? Well, so the social unrest isn't surprising. I think it's surprising it's taken this long, and that is if you look at the percentage of retail that's done via e-commerce, it's loosely speaking, and Derek Thompson pointed this stat out to me, which I think is really interesting, from The Atlantic. Really interesting from the Atlantic. Essentially, e-commerce has been 1% growing by 1% of retail when it started, and it's grown 1% a year, and it's 18 years after e-commerce got traction. It's now 18% of retail, but in the last eight weeks, it's gone to 28%. Ever since the 70s and 80s and Reagan, we've decided that the new nobility are rich people, and we've sort of embraced this notion, this ugly notion of

a meritocracy where billionaires deserve what they get and poor people deserve what they get. So let's reward the billionaires. And now we have taxes on the top 0.1% lower than everyone else. So we've sort of embraced what I would call this massive move towards income inequality. And then in the last eight weeks, it jumped from 18 to 28%, if you will. And that is inequality has been so dramatically escalated over the last 60 days. And throughout history, it's just pretty straightforward. When you reach a certain level of income inequality, it self-corrects with war, famine, or revolution. And right now, we have two. We have famine and we have revolution. And the scary part is, usually when you have two of the three, it leads to the other third. So, I don't think this is, I don't think it's surprising,

Kara. Because there have been shocking videos over and over, over and over again. And this one was particularly, the New York Times has an amazing breakdown of it from minute to minute, the whole arrest. And it is, even to watch it slow or just watch the thing by itself, it was horrific. It was, and especially the people on the street saying you're killing him, stop. Like there's several people that are attempting

to stop the police who are being obstructive. I think the whole thing is astonishing. It's an astonishing situation when you look at that video. And I think they're all awful. By the way, every single one of them is awful. I would argue that as it relates to, or I think, as it relates to systemic racism, that the arc has been curved, but it bends towards justice until Trump. And that is, I don't want to say presidents have been curved, but it bends towards justice until Trump. And that is, I don't want to say presidents have been good, but I think over time they've become less bad. No, I don't think so. I think it's deep and we pretend it doesn't exist and everyone's surprised

by these white supremacists. I'm not surprised by them. And by the way, this is us two white people talking about this. I think the experience of, I have a friend who is so scared for her sons. We had a long talk about that. Different world. He's scared for her sons. Different America. And this is someone who is money and means and everything else, still scared for her sons. And so they have plenty of money.

They've got plenty of ability to put the kid in a nice school and this and that. And it doesn't matter. It just doesn't. And so I just don't, I think we, again, we're two white people talking about this, so we're never going to get it right, but we certainly have to start to talk about our culpability. And it, either by ignoring it or allowing our elected officials to continue,

you know, just the idea of these police forces with these military-grade weapons. It's like crazy. That would be a start to demilitarize the police. Oh, whoa. Like who did that? It wasn't Trump. I mean, listen, Trump is absolute worst. I'm not saying that, but it's like, we have to, we have to have a larger discussion with all of us. And I don't want to, you know, you don't want to say truth and reconciliation because I don't think they're ready to reconcile yet and shouldn't be, shouldn't be ready to reconcile yet. So someone, if someone from the Trump administration was here, they would say,

well, Carol, what about criminal justice reform? Do you think that's a step in the right direction? Yes. Yes, it is. But it's still, it doesn't, it's sort of like putting a Band-Aid on what is really at the heart, the dark heart of America, which is racism. I'm sorry. I just think it's, I think there's dark heart reasons that we do not experience.

And again, I've had some great discussions with my sons. I'm like, he does not, my sons do not experience it. They've only had either no interactions with the police or nothing problematic, like nothing. And in fact, we had an interaction with the police where my son broke off a leaf of a tree the other day. Your son broke off a leaf of a tree? Well, he was grabbing a leaf, and he pulled off the whole branch. And we happened to be passing a cop car, and the cop goes, put that back where you found it, and scared the shit out of my son. And he was kidding, and he goes, oh, I'm just kidding.

And it was a nice interaction. Do you know what I mean? And my son was like, I wonder what that would have been like if I was African American. I said, I don't know. And then he all went and had lattes and a Chick-fil-A. No, he did not have lattes and Chick-fil-A. In any case, it's a time that we've got to really face the ugly face. And Trump is our ugliest face, but none of us are so pretty.

That's my feeling. Scott, again, our discussions, of course, are not talking about business, but let's talk a little bit about business. Obviously, as civil unrest continues, Facebook is having some of its employees who never really complain at Facebook. They've been the least, they're sort of the most culty. Mark Zuckerberg has sort of tried to put himself into the Trump camp by appearing on Fox News and saying he doesn't want to be a part of Truth and attacking Jack Dorsey from labeling some of Trump's tweets. Arbor Truth and attacking Jack Dorsey from labeling some of Trump's tweets. So what do you think its responsibility for its users, their employees, and specifically their Black employees, and also sort of what should be the response from companies? There's been relative silence from tech. Nike and Adidas, longtime rivals, released powerful ad campaigns in support of the protests.

Nike produced an ad that flipped their Just Do It tagline to Just Don't Do It, as in don't ignore systemic racism. Then Adidas released an ad that added, together is how we move forward. Record labels across the $10 billion music industry issued an agreement to give employees Tuesday off in protest. Warner Music Group, Sony, Universal Music, Motown, Capitol Records, and Columbia Records are some major labels participating. There's all kinds of things going on. Any comment about how companies should react to this?

And Facebook first, Facebook first. Well, I'm just kind of sick of hearing Facebook people going on background saying how disappointed and upset they are as they cast their checks and go down to the cafeteria. I think – I just don't think it's getting around it. People need – have a right to make a living. I think it's a great company on a lot of levels. But I think you're complicit if you work for Facebook and what is one of the most damaging and dangerous organizations in the world. And your grandkids are going to be really embarrassed to say that you're – that Nana worked at Facebook. I just don't think there's any getting around it.

I think history is going to judge you and your co-workers really harshly and going on background of the New York Times saying that you're distressed and upset about Trump. I don't think that does anyone any fucking good. Oddly enough, that's my columnist. I called Mark Zuckerberg the Susan Collins of the internet. I'm disturbed. I'm concerned. I'm disturbed and concerned. Yeah. This is not good.

You know, this kind of bullshit response. I agree. How should companies respond? Like, they did these ads. And, of course, there are all those pandemic ads, right? Right. So what? And those were all like, we're here to help.

This is a very important thing to do and also a dicey thing. So, over the weekend, in the last 72 hours, I've talked to a major apparel and shoe manufacturer, a large CPG company, and then a big specialty retailer. And the question was, how do you think we respond to this? And they're all with their agencies saying, this is an opportunity. And my attitude is, I didn't like the Nike yet. I love Nike, but I think, I thought Amazon actually had a stronger statement. They just said, we stand with these people. But I don't even think that's the right thing. I think unless you're going to come out with concrete action. Okay, so Nike, 8% of their 350 VPs or whatever it is, are African-American. And you might argue, well, okay, if 8% of their 350 VPs or whatever it is are African American. And you might argue, well,

okay, if 12% of America is African American, but 80% of the athletes, they support in the NBA. I mean, it just, you subject yourself, I think unless you're going to come out with a specific goal or action item or specific commitment, I just think you keep it to yourself. What was that number you just said? I didn't know that about Nike. I'm sorry. I should know that. I don't know. Nike, to be fair, Nike does have, I think, a real concerted effort to try and advance. They're very self-aware around the fact that they are largely, their brand is largely a function of the endorsements from people of color on, you know, athletes. And I think they've made a concerted effort. But the reality is it's still, and I like that. It's really difficult. It sounds weird. It's not easy to find

executives of color in Portland, Oregon. So, and that's not an excuse, but it's a complicated issue. And my advice to anyone right now is in this environment that is so serious, unless you're going to announce a specific action, we are going to ensure that by X date, our executive ranks look like America. We are going to fund X initiative to ensure more young men and women of color have access to affordable, whatever it might be, whatever. I thought what you just said is a fantastic thing saying we're giving the record labels that we're giving people the day off

to protest if they choose to. Just like voting. That's the same thing. But these platitudes around. Yeah, I know. I have a coconut smile, although I didn't like that. And we're going to get through this. And we stand with, you know, I just,

I might be cynical because I just see so much of it. Yeah. But I don't think you are. I think we may have jumped the shark here. I think we all are susceptible to marketing. I'm thinking of the, I'd like to teach the world to sing or have a Coke and a smile or any of those, any Kodak commercial can make me tear up in a second.

But if you're watching them from a different perspective, you'd be like bullshit, like bullshit with a Coke and a smile. That's not how it works. I'll grab a Coke and I'll get stopped for shoplifting, even though i did nothing i mean i think that's the thing is this marketing does not you know the pandemic stuff is laughable for everybody because everyone's experiencing because it's like stop you're not with me you know you're not trying to help me just give me my stuff you know give me a job give me the money give me a way to not have my business closed that's different.

But I think that marketing right now, I think all companies should say, you're right, say something concrete. Should say something for once because, you know, a lot of these companies are saying nothing. And then do something. Like, Mark, take down Trump's terror, cover them or whatever, label them. If you don't feel comfortable taking them down, label them as dangerous. Like the fact that they didn't take that one looting and shooting one, which is such a clear, crystal clear example of inciting violence and using a racist trope to do so. To me, I don't know what would make him do it. You know what I mean? And then there was reporting from Axios, for example,

that he had had a call and saying he was concerned. You know, he strongly disagreed with Mr. Trump and he was concerned. He gave him a call. Like, what is he, customer fucking service for President Trump? Hey, dude, you might be being a little problematic for me, but it was all about Facebook

and none of it about solving the problem. You're right. They need to, concrete things need to be done. What would you do if you were any of these tech companies, or any company? What would be a move? Disney, whatever, pick one. Well, first off, I'm not sure I agree with say something. I think that, so the NFL put out a statement, Roger Goodell, and I just read this thing. I'll just read the last paragraph, and I just pulled it up. As current events dramatically underscore, there remains much more to do as a country and as a league. These strategies inform the NFL's commitment and our ongoing efforts. There

remains an urgent need for action. We recognize the power of our platform and communities, and it's part of the fabric of American society. We embrace that responsibility and committed to continuing the important work to address these systemic issues together with our players, clubs, and partners. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. I find if you're going to – that's how to say nothing. And I find that that's worse than saying nothing. Pretending, wanting credit for actually saying something, and then clearly this was massaged, strangled by a series of $850 an hour PR and communications consultants that said, okay, we're going to water this down

and we're going to bastardize and gangbang this statement until you can't recognize it. When they're through making people lose their minds through not having adequate protection and stuff, look, be nice to Colin Kaepernick. He couldn't play in the league because he peacefully protested police violence, ironically, by taking a knee, which is amazing.

I know. He takes a knee and he loses his career. That is thick with irony. No doubt about it. You know, it's just like astonishing that, and them doing that was a controversy, including for President Trump. Like back Colin Kaepernick for doing what he's doing. It is literally, and they're worried about their TV rights. You know, I get it for, you know, a second to feel that way, but then putting this out, I'm sorry, anything that comes out of the NFL is, given that 70% of the players are African-American men, it's just like, stop.

Please stop. So there is a gangster opportunity in all of this. So do something, so you say say nothing, not even make a statement? I think, let me put it this way, I think this is worse than nothing. Yeah, okay. So if you can't get your act together and commit to something or say something that's heartfelt and real, keep it to yourself. I don't think it's heartfelt. So have you seen anything that's heartfelt and real from anybody?

I think giving the day off is one thing. Well, I don't love Amazon, but I think they came right out and said, we stand with, you know, we stand with. What does it mean? I think it was, I don't know. They basically made a statement and it felt political and it felt dangerous and clearly alienate some people, but they, it was short, sweet, and it didn't have a specific action item, but I thought it was a declarative definitive statement that took a stand. And I think all these other guys are like, well, we don't want to piss off our white owners. We don't want to piss off the people in Green Bay, but we don't want to piss off our fans in Detroit. I mean, they were just trying to have it. The NFL

is just trying to have it all ways. And I realized- So you like the record companies giving people the day off, giving them an actionable thing. I think that's outstanding. I think that's outstanding. That's what Hearst does, by the way. Hearst for a long time has given everyone the day off on all election days, which I think is wonderful. Yeah, well, that should be a national holiday. Yeah, they may get a national holiday. But, look, you asked about social media. I think there's a moment here of real opportunity for Twitter.

And as it relates to Trump, and that is everything has been politicized from the environment used to be a bipartisan issue. Then it became politicized. And fast forward now, mass have become politicized from the environment used to be a bipartisan issue, then it became politicized. And fast forward now, mass have become politicized. And now there's just no getting around it. Social media is about to become politicized. And I think Twitter has an opportunity to lean in and start enforcing their terms of service, kick off tens of thousands of accounts, including the person who violates every term of service, the president, and lean into and use this as cloud cover to go to a slowly but surely a subscription model where they charge people based on the number of followers they have. I think it would not only get rid of the fire or the kerosene underneath the

rage machine that is tearing apart our society and the world society, but at 120th the market cap of Facebook, they have the opportunity to take bolder, bigger risks. Interesting. And even if their revenue declined by 20%, 30%, 50%, their share price would likely go up because it would move to a recurring revenue business model. Well, that's an interesting question. So I think we're— It is interesting.

Here's where it's interesting, is that I've talked to a lot of lawyers this week. All of them tell me their safest thing legally, actually, is to kick him off. Oh, they're fine. And he's probably— That's their safest thing. For the first time, I'm coming to your side of the boat. For the first time, I think he's actually not going to get reelected. So he wouldn't have time to really go after them.

Yeah. But there's an opportunity for Twitter here to do something not only meaningful and good for the world, but also good for shareholders. Because the bottom line is their ad model, which is the underlying rage machine, isn't working. Twitter's tools suck. They have not innovated around nowhere near what Facebook has done. Anyway, let's take a quick break. We'll be back to talk about corporate response to the protests. And we'll be joined by a friend of Pivot, Bharatunde Thurston.

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Tex's response to Trump's racist and violent remarks on Twitter at the end of the week. So tell us what you think of them, Baratunde. Hello, Cara. Hey. Hello, Big Dog Scott. Go on, Baratunde.

No, no. I know what I did there. Don't start by kissing him. I know what I did there. I know what I'm walking into. I'm sorry, Cara. I didn't like this thing. That's okay.

It had to be fair. All right. I know what I'm walking into. I'm sorry, Karen. I don't have any nice thoughts about the president of the United States. I think there are moments that call for leadership. There are bad leaders, and then there are people who are absent in the face of a nation that is in severe pain and can do nothing but cause more of it. And that is what we're faced with now. It is worse than a bad president. It's like the inverse of a president, the opposite of what we need right now. So his decision to inflame already inflamed cities even further certainly goes beyond the terms

and conditions and policies we've all co-signed onto by being a part of these billionaire platforms. And the Republican Party's decision to co-sign on everything he's done so far means this is a much bigger problem. What do you think of what Twitter has done? Let's review last week. And what do you think the social media sites should do? And in general, the narratives that have to change on these sites? To my knowledge, what Twitter decided to do last week was to start flagging the flagrantly false and probably dangerous tweets from the President of the United States. That's good. I was honestly shocked. I had, like with my expectations of the United States as a black citizen, I had lowered my expectations to expect nothing and had adjusted to that normal. So I was pleasantly surprised to see them enforcing their policies against just another user.

Years late into the game, but later is better than never. I was also totally not shocked by his temper tantrumic response, temper tantric. I'm not sure the appropriate version of that, but his response to go even harder because it would be one of the few times in this person's life that he's actually faced accountability or public judgment for his actions. So it's a beginning. It's not enough. I think, look, at this stage, we all have a choice to make, whether you're a citizen, a voter, a member of Congress, a corporate leader, controlling a platform. The stability of our nation and the world to some extent is at stake. And so you have to choose, are you going to upset a thin-skinned man, or are you going to enable the destruction of even more of society? And so this isn't even,

to me, about policy consistency. It's about preventing death, preventing harm, preventing further inflammation of actual violence at this stage. And certainly we all know people who've been kicked off the platform for far, far less. Yeah, we do. So if the U.S. Senate won't do it, maybe Twitter will. That is hold this president accountable for something. And Baratunde, you've been really successful in digital and in comedy and in media and in sectors that aren't, for lack of a better term, very diverse. What message do you have for young people of color around? I mean, what are your, you know, if you can give a, if you can send message to young people of color around trying to be successful in markets and sectors that traditionally have

just lacked diversity, is it, you know, how do you inspire young people? What is your message to young men? Thank you, Scott. And I will give two messages, two states of the union, to young people of color, especially young black people in the United States. I would say, you're amazing. There is a lot of negativity and a lot of language

and messaging around our vulnerability, our weakness, our susceptibility, our targeting by the system and the state and the racism. And those are all true. But there is another truth, which is we're still here. We're here through all of that. Our ancestors ensured that we would be here, which means we are strong as hell. We are resilient. We are creative. You are resilient. You are creative. There is no easy promise from a slightly older person. I'm 42 years old that things are going to get better. Maybe. And if they do, maybe they'll last. Maybe they won't. going to get better. Maybe. And if they do, maybe they'll last, maybe they won't. But your existence is proof of your brilliance. And so hold on to that as the world tells you directly and indirectly that your life doesn't matter. The fact that you have it is a testament to your strength. So keep

hold of that. And then if I could add two white people, whether you're young or not, I don't want to just limit my audience to the youth. But one, I want to thank a lot of white people for belatedly acknowledging the validity of our experiences. Later is better than never. And welcome. Welcome to America as we have been experiencing it for so, so long. And thank you. And I think there's a great opportunity here to deepen our relationship with each other and our empathy with each other. And to recognize that it's not just up to people like me who make a partial living off of talking about race to solve this thing. Just like it's not just up to people like me who make a partial living off of talking about race

to solve this thing. Just like it's not up to women to solve sexism. It takes men to show up better and check other men. It takes white people to show up better and check other white people. And it's not for me. And it's not for the unborn black baby boy or girl. It's for yourself. It's because we all got to figure out how to live together.

Or this whole thing's a shambles. And we might as well stop pretending. Yep. And that's an option. I'm not there yet, but I have flirted with it a lot over the past week. So show up. Ask questions. Educate yourself.

I've done my part to make it easy. You can find me on Instagram and all the other platforms where Baratunde's are known and read the resources and find the workshop leaders and do it. This audience above many others is resourceful and curious and smart. So use that. Use that now and use that power. That's absolutely true, Baratunde. One of the things that happens is a lot of people feel nervous to say something wrong in a lot of ways, in a weird way. But this idea of anti-racism, a term that's new for many white Americans, it's an idea just saying you're not racist is not enough. In fact, it's passive. Can you talk about the idea of anti-racism versus just saying, hey, I'm not a racist person?

Here's the beautiful thing. There's a book for everything. And they're in audio and they're on digital. And if you're cool with shipping things to your house and leaving them on your porch for three days, they still make them physically. There was a great book literally called How to Be an Anti-Racist by Ibram X. Kendi. Buy the book. He lays it out in great detail or listen to it while you're walking or jogging or cleaning the house or pretending to teach your kids something. We're all trying to survive here. Feed this in at the same time. We have to actively counter what has been created. Scott, you might appreciate this

as a financial person. I spent some years in the Microsoft Excel world of putting businesses in software and trying to forecast what would happen to them. And I remember this concept of cashflow projections, and especially for a business that makes an upfront investment, say in equipment and marketing, and then has a recurring revenue stream, which is quite in vogue, you're digging yourself out of a hole. And you end up with this net positive perspective of, okay, cumulative cashflow positive. You've paid off the investment. Now you got free cashflow. You're good. You're actually making money. And it might take some companies years. With respect to justice in the United

States, we are in a significant hole. When we started digging, when we brought the first captive Africans here in 1619 and kept digging formally, legally, until at least 1965, maybe until very much today. So we don't just get to say, oh, we're making money. I did a good thing today. So none of that stuff happens. We're still in the hole. So we've got to dig ourselves out. And the value and the idea of anti-racism is to counteract, not just stop doing bad stuff, undo the harm, is to counteract, not just stop doing bad stuff, undo the harm, the multi-generational financial, economic, psychological, physical harm that's been done to the communities for so many years. We've got to get out of the hole. And we can, but it's a lot. It's a lot.

You need this massive investment to create an asset that yields dividends moving forward. And what would that massive investment look like or to get out of this hole? Give us a concrete example of something we could collectively do. For those of us who want to be anti-racist, for those of us who would be willing to vote for elected officials

that would allocate capital towards that big, bold, definitive investment, what might that look like? How does that manifest itself in something actionable? Yeah, I can think of a few things. In the very immediate moment, there are efforts to shift public funding away from law enforcement resources

and into community resources, positive investment rather than negative investment. You can find those and support those. They're in every city in this country, every state in this country, and in places around the world who are facing some similar challenges. I think there is a relationship investment that people can make, which is to, especially for white people, talk about race with other white people. I think it's really uncomfortable. I think, Kerry, you brought up a very fair and real point about people being nervous to say something wrong. And many of us who are trying to do this work haven't always been

welcoming. We're tired. We're burnt out. You say the wrong word. Get out the pool. But amongst yourselves, where you can be safe and vulnerable, start asking questions about your own relationship with what it means to be white, with the unearned privilege. It's not a negative thing, but it's a true thing. And what else you could do with it besides feel bad about it? Feeling bad about your superpower helps no one. Superman doesn't mope around about his super strength. He uses it to help people. So start having that conversation.

about his super strength. He uses it to help people. So start having that conversation. I think from an economic perspective, the climate challenge represents a really interesting, positive investment opportunity. We have some rebuilding to do, and we cannot rebuild the way we did before. Normal is below good enough. And so we have a chance to actually pay workers, to create jobs, to invest in the things that we actually all want, but also to prioritize the folks who've been most harmed. You saw what happened with weed. When they legalized weed, the people making money, the people who've always made money in this capitalist system, well-funded, advantaged investors, mostly white, mostly men, and very few people who got locked up for doing the same thing over the past 40 years. We cannot repeat that. So if you're in

a position to make investments, make them with the communities you claim to respect and love. If you're in a position to hire, go out of your comfort zone and your comfortable way of the networks you already know from this university and this professional society. Try harder. Stretch. Because that's how we dig out of the hole. When people who haven't put forth the effort start to do it. And then we get this magical thing that works in finance and works in physics that's called leverage. But we need more people bending their back into that

stick to actually generate how do you think the media is covering because a lot of it does have to do with these it's the imagery you know what i mean which what's really interesting about this imagery and i noticed my son's watching it is when they're talking about the looting it's always sort of linked with racism in some way this alluding and my sons were counting it was interesting i don't know why they were doing this. The white people coming out of looting and who had, that's a white guy with a, they all have skateboards. There are a lot of skateboards, it's true.

I'm like, what the fuck are you doing with the skateboards? Have you noticed they're using skateboards to break the windows? And there was one really amazing video of an African-American woman pulling a white guy away from destroying a sidewalk. And she kept saying, we're going to be blamed for this, and it's you who's doing it.

You're not doing it for us. And it was really interesting. And I was like sort of, in one case, the media is doing a good job because you're seeing it. You're seeing who's actually doing the looting. At one point in Beverly Hills, it was a bunch of white ladies who were walking in and out of one of the stores, which was.

The ultimate discount. Which was, and they weren't getting stopped, but they also weren't getting stopped, which was amazing. And you could see the police all grabbing black people. It was really, it was interesting to watch. How do you think the media is doing? Because they, of course, want to focus on the, oh, there's a firework, there's a bang, there's tear gas.

What should be done differently? I always want more from the media. There've been some good moments. There've been some horrible moments. On average, it's probably a C, because it takes flames to draw their attention in the first place. Otherwise, we would have stopped talking about this probably about a week ago as we sit here. Looting is a charged word and it's never applied when it's done at scale. When it's done with human bodies from a continent to create a free labor force, it's not called looting. When it's done with human bodies from a continent to create a free labor force,

it's not called looting. When it's done to indigenous people in the land that was here first, it's not called looting. When it's done in the form of a massive over a trillion dollar tax break to take from the poor and redistribute to the already rich, it's not called looting. It's called tax policy. And so we have different words for it in different areas of our society. But when it's a black kid with a flat screen TV, it's called looting. And I we have different words for it in different areas of our society. But when it's a black kid with a flat screen TV, it's called looting. And I think what we're seeing, what I want from the media, I'll put it this way. It's hard for especially television media to do this, but I need them to try harder to paint a broader picture of what we're seeing. What I've seen,

and I've been following the live streams of people who I know are organizers. And I literally see how they set this up. I see how the Black Lives Matter Los Angeles organizers coach people with the masks, with the water, with the like, we're going to march this way, do not engage. We're here to have our voices heard and that's it. And it's peaceful. And then a couple of things happen that lead to violence. One thing that happens is police show up and their presence and the police are showing up as their own kind of gang. And I think we need to raise the bar. We need to raise the bar on who can become a police officer, how they get trained, and finally actually hold them accountable. When you can get away with murder repeatedly and have nothing done

about it, you don't mind committing murder. There's no signal in this system that says to any law enforcement officer, don't do that, including your fellow officers who hide behind the badge so often in a very gang-like structure. So who's the gang? Who's the organized crime? The officers show up and they are shoving people with their vehicles at time, and they're often making the situation worse. You have rogue agents of a more anarchistic nature who are just taking an opportunity. You have some right-wing people who always want to sow discord, and they're jumping it. You have some really aggrieved and angry black people who are showing up as angry and aggrieved and have been told by the system that there's no

right way to protest. If you're Colin Kaepernick and you take a knee, well, that's too disrespectful, even though he got the permission of a member of the armed services to do it in a most respectful way during the national anthem. It's not good enough for some of the pundits in the media of the world. And then if you burn something on fire, well, that's not good enough. Then if you block traffic, well, you're inconveniencing. So what's the right way to demand your rights? There is none. So I want the media not to solve it. It's not their job, but your job is to tell the story. So tell a more complete story and don't so lazily fall into the old tropes of, oh, it's just a bunch of thugs, aka black thugs, wasting the memory of George Floyd, a memory you had no interest in honoring until those thugs started burning stuff.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let me finish up and Scott may have a final question. In terms of what, we were talking just before you came on on what social media needs to do to stop it, because they are sort of the megaphone for someone like Donald Trump, who is so clearly racist and using the platform incorrectly. What would you do if you were Mark Zuckerberg and you had unlimited power? That's a stretch. I would just walk away like in a Michael Bay, Jerry Bruckheimer. Quietly.

You know, just fire behind me, slow motion, a rap. I gave y'all 12 years of this. I'm done with shutting it down. That would be so nice and sweet. But what would you do? Like here you are with unlimited power over this, pretending you don't have unlimited power. But say you actually recognize the fact that nobody holds you accountable for anything, what would you do? What would be your first move?

That is a big... Besides getting a fresh kombucha shake, what would be your second move? It's a big question. It's a hard question, Kara. So I don't pretend to have an easy answer. An easy answer. I think that what would go a long way for me as a reluctant member of the Facebook universe is an acknowledgement by Mr. Zuckerberg of the unforeseen, but now very much seen negative consequences of what he's helped unleash on the world. There's been so much denial at every turn, every turn, this guy resists. Back, I remember when Dana Boyd gave a fiery address at South by Southwest Interactive so long ago, it was three Americas and 20 internets ago. And Zuckerberg at that point was very addicted to the idea of everything's public, everything's real name. And Dana said something like, it's very easy for you to say if you're

a cisgendered white male from the upper middle class background, but you can't be that person if you're in the South, if your father's a preacher, if you're in the closet, trans teen or gay teen, that standard doesn't hold. And so I need him to stop resisting everyone who's been right every time about everything that they've been wrong about every time. And just acknowledge, I've gotten this wrong and I've been playing defense and I'm sorry for that. A lot of y'all were right. And I'm sorry for that. That's the acknowledgement phase. I also need the mechanisms, the financial mechanisms that run that service to shift. A lot of what is wrong is what's encouraged. And what's encouraged is what we pay for. And what we pay for is treating people as means and trading on our identities and selling us back to ourselves

or the highest bidder. I'm descended from a people who were literally sold. I'm not excited about the idea of me and my data being auctioned off. And yet we have an entire industry built on selling people by the slice and the dice in a way that's disgusting. And we need, if not these leaders, then new ones to step in and build a different way of doing this. I don't know if Facebook's going to be able to make that turn to let me own myself again. It's not in their nature. It's not in their economic interest. They're a publicly traded company. They've got every reason not to. So why would they do it? To be a leader? To stay relevant? I think number one is,

I think it's not in their nature. But it'd be nice to hear the acknowledgement. It'd be nice to have them try. It'd be nicer to see actual innovation again by someone who isn't swallowed up by their hyper acquisition spree or copy everything spree to actually have a market. For all the sins of capitalism, we don't even have that version of it here. We have a crony system. And they've been deep

practitioners of the crony arts in stamping out competition rather than facing it head on on a level playing field. I clearly have a lot of thoughts on this, but I don't have a simple answer. Those are some initial directions. Well, along those lines, where can people find more information on you and your work? Yeah. I do a show for this moment. It's been called Live on Lockdown. I just did my 20th episode this week, baratoonday.com slash live. And then my social home, like I said, I'm a reluctant member of the Facebook universe because I also find value there. Like America, I don't want to burn it all down. I got to live

here. So Instagram is my chosen dialect of Facebook. And you can find me as Baratunde on Instagram. And I have a bunch of resources and I point to other people. I mean, Weapons of Math Destruction was a great book. The Algorithmic Justice League is a wonderful organization of other people who are showing us a different way to use these tools and don't just want to stop progress or shut everything down, but build something better. And now is the time to step up, show up, or shut up. Agreed. All right. Perfect. Thanks, show up, or shut up. Agreed. All right.

Perfect. Thanks, Gertrude. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me. You're a great man. And I'm going to make you CEO of Facebook someday. That's my goal. That's what I get.

I can do it. That's what I get. Listen, y'all do a wonderful show. I get results. I listen to two of the 13 episodes a week that you make. Keep it up. I think you're doing some real good stuff. To resist is futile.

Thank you. All right, take care. It's futile. Thanks, everybody. All right, Scott, that was fantastic. I think I found a new co-host. Anyway, we'll be back after one more quick break. We'll be back with wins and fails.

The Capital Ideas Podcast now features a series hosted by Capital Group CEO, Mike Gitlin. Through the words and experiences of investment professionals, you'll discover what differentiates their investment approach, what learnings have shifted their career trajectories, and how do they find their next great idea? Invest 30 minutes in an episode today. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact. You know what's not easy? Marketing. And when

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all backed by Constant Contact's expert live customer support. Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. Constantcontact.ca. Okay, we're back. Scott wins and fails. I'm going to give it all to you. You already slapped Roger Goodell around. He deserves it. What else do you have as a winner or fail? or fail? So, like, you know, cursed with riches or whatever the term is around a loser. So, I'm not going to go there. I'm going to go with wins. I do think this is a unique opportunity for Twitter. And I would absolutely lean in to their terms of service. I think they should begin

qualifying, labeling, and kicking off people from both the left and the right on the platform. I think they should begin qualifying, labeling, and kicking off people from both the left and the right on the platform. I think it's just time for them to raise their standards, start applying terms of service, and take some risks. And I think they're in a position to take some risks because, quite frankly, the company just hasn't lived up to its expectations. And I think it's time for Twitter and Jack Dorsey to command the space they occupy. I think it would be good for shareholders. I think they should move to identification, demand that people are who they say they are. I think they should move to a subscription model. And I think they should begin kicking people off the platform

if they're motivating violence, committing hate crimes, trying to intimidate people based on their gender, their sexual orientation. I think this is not only the right thing to do, but I think it's an incredible opportunity for them. And I think it started, I'm hoping it started last week. I hope the board supports Jack and encourages him to be bold here. And I think that Twitter could become, if you will, I don't call it a beacon, but I think if Jack Dorsey, who's worth $4 billion, wants statues and wants his grandkids to go,

wow, Pop-Pop was a gangster. I think there's a unique moment in time here to do what's right for shareholders, but more importantly, to do the right thing. And that is begin the healing around the rage machine and turn it from the rage machine to a media company that's subscription-based. Because Netflix isn't tearing us apart. It's these ad-driven social media companies that are tearing us apart. So my win is what I hope is the first step in a real movement by Jack Dorsey and Twitter. Yeah. I think the loser of the week, I think, the failed week is Mark Zuckerberg and his

arbiter of truths. You know, Mark has been the Susan Collins of the internet, which is what I called him. And if he's going to, he's not going to be Elizabeth Warren, which he's not because he's terrified. So explain what you mean by Susan Collins. Oh, I'm disturbed. I'm concerned, but doing nothing. Like that, it's just so much bullshit. Just shut up if you're going to do that stuff. And if not, if you can't be Elizabeth Warren.

Oh, it's Senator from Maine Collins. Yes, Collins, Susan Collins. I thought you were like the romance novelist. No, that's Jackie Collins. Oh, okay, Senator Collins. You're dating yourself, Senator Collins were like the romance novelist. No, that's Jackie Collins. Oh, okay, Senator Collins. You're dating yourself. The one who pretends to give a shit and always votes for Trump. Yes, that one.

Who's going to be voted out, by the way, by Sarah Gideon. Please send her money. I don't even know about Maine politics, but I know about that one. If he's not going to be, be Mitt Romney if you can't be Elizabeth Warren. Be someone else besides Susan Collins. At least have some guts. And stop sucking up to the Trump administration. And move Joel Kaplan somewhere else.

He's got the knee pads out for the almighty dollar. It doesn't matter who the John is. No, move Joel Kaplan to another place and bring in anybody else that will give you a wider range. Move Peter Thiel down a notch down at the board meeting. I don't know. You need a Department of Justice or an aggressive attorney general to start talking about civil and criminal charges. He's not.

Don't expect Mark Zuckerberg's better angels to show up. I am. You know what? Bill Gates got better. Oh, Bill Gates never did a fraction of damage to Mark Zuckerberg. Well, at the time, it seemed bad. Bill Gates was Darwinian. He wasn't sociopathic.

All right, then. Okay, on that note. And a win? I don't know. We got to end on wins, Scott. Let's have some wins and then we will go. I thought,

did you see the Medium post from the Obamas? No, not yet. That was very, very strong. And I would encourage, and I think it's starting to happen, that both the president and First Lady Obama are starting to get more actively engaged. I think there's such powerful, graceful voices.

And I also think they're pragmatic. I think they're taken seriously by moderates. And I think they have an ability to say activism isn't calling out people. What Baratunde said that, you know, there is a real risk. In order to have a dialogue, intention leads to dialogue, leads to action, but you can't have a dialogue if people are constantly worried about being called out in a cancel culture. And I think the Obamas have a role to play around catalyzing a dialogue, being very, getting people registered to vote, and also creating what I'll call safe spaces for us to have a productive dialogue.

But anyways, my win is their Medium post. I thought it was fantastic. Oh, that's a good win. That's a really good win. I don't have a win this week because it's been a hard week, I have to say. I'm trying to think of something that has been nice. It was nice to have DC open up for a second.

I think people were a little bit happy to go out and have a restaurant. Now, of course, everything is boarded up. I haven't gone to a restaurant. No, I'm not going to. I believe in COVID-19. I don't think it's over by any stretch. I'm a believer. It's for real.

I feel badly for these retailers. I'm trying really hard to spend money there and things like that. It was just heartbreaking. I'm testing really hard to spend money there and things like that, but it was just heartbreaking. I was riding. I'm testing electric bikes, so I was riding my bike. Oh, wait. I have another loss.

What? Okay. Go ahead. I think these declarative, bold statements from university heads pretending to be, well, it's not pretending, saying that we're welcoming back our students in the fall. Oh, you do think that. And they tend to be from universities that have high tuition and high experience value propositions. And it strikes me, it reminds me of a CEO

talking up their stock in the midst of a disastrous earnings call saying basically send in your 500 million in tuition deposits. And the reality is, and I know this firsthand, we have no idea what we're going to be doing in the fall. We have no idea. And any statement around we have a moral obligation or a national responsibility to open our campuses in the fall is nothing. Anyone who says we're in this together or we have an obligation to open is either a CEO

looking for a bailout or a university president telling parents to send in their deposits. I think it's disingenuous and borderline reckless. All right. Well, that's not a win. All right. All right. Here's one win. Young people. The ones that were protesting. A win? Young people? You mean the ones that don't vote? No, going, the ones that, no, they do vote. You're wrong. Let me just say. Trying to bring the average age of our listener down. My sons both went to the protest with my permission. They asked my permission because they were worried about COVID-19.

They went. They were safe. They were safe as could be. Did they de-leaf any trees? No, stop it. Listen to me. They're big boys. Let me just say they're trying to learn.

My son is so interested in voting and he's getting his friends interested. My youngest son is becoming more politically active. I think you're wrong. I think young people do get politically active. And I think they do it on their own. And they see the challenges being faced. And I'm hoping for this next generation. Hey, I have a show on Vice. I get the young people. I get the young people too. My win is young people. I still think that is where my greatest hope is. Oh, you're going out on a limb there. That's bold. My greatest hope is... No, I'm going on the young people. I still think that is where my greatest hope is. Oh, you're going out on a limb there. My greatest hope is. That's bold.

My greatest hope is. No, I'm going on my own people. Where's Baratunde? Let me just say I'm going for my sons. I'm naming my next son Baratunde. All the sons. I like that name. Baratunde.

You know, you cannot do that. Meet my son Baratunde. Okay, we're going to go now. Okay. Listen, Scott. We're going to go now. Yeah. Kara, keep it real.

You're keeping it real here. Don't forget if you have a story in the news you're curious about and want to hear our opinion on, email us at pivot at voxmedia.com to be featured on the show. Also, send us suggestions of who we should have on. We would really like to hear your suggestions because we're just essentially two overprivileged white people who need a lot of help becoming better people. So it would be really great. We'd love all your feedback. And there she goes to the woke spa. She's getting her nails done at the woke spa. No, I'm not. No, I'm not.

I'm just saying we don't think hard enough. You know what? We're not awful, but we could be better. You know what? I'm not going to begin with you. I'm going to go loot a van store. No, stop it. No, you know what? Are you triggered? No, I'm irritated by you. Anyway, a Patagonia store. No, stop it. Now, you know what? Are you triggered? Are you triggered?

No, I'm irritated by you. Anyway, read us out, Scott. Today's episode was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. And thanks to Fernanda Finite for engineering this episode. Our executive producer is Erica Anderson. Special thanks to Drew Burrows and Rebecca Castro. If you like what you heard, please download. Please stay safe.

There is nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed with what's right with America. If you don't like your prosecutor, canvas for the opposition. If you believe that our elected officials are doing nothing but borrowing from future generations to flatten the curve for rich people. If you believe we have a dangerous imbecile in the White House who is fundamentally a bigot, then hey, let's vote. There is nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed with what's right with America. Cara, have a great rest of the week and stay safe. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. It's not always easy to harness the power and potential of AI. For all the talk around its revolutionary potential, a lot of AI systems feel like they're designed for specific

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