Pivot - Inauguration Day, Biden's antitrust issues, and the future of Fox News

Episode Date: January 22, 2021

Kara and Scott talk about Inauguration Day and the Biden administration. Big tech critics are concerned about his potential DOJ antitrust division appointees. They also discuss several big names at Fox News departing the outlet and what happens to the cable networks without Donald Trump. In listener mail, Kara and Scott answer a question about how to teach students K-higher education about misinformation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We've learned that quiet isn't always peace. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. President 2048, Amanda Gorman. i love your dramatic reading of her beautiful words that's did i just totally bastardize it did i just did you listen to her reading it reading it was also an important part of it you know anderson cooper tried this last night your boyfriend anderson cooper me and ando i'm going on with ando tonight i know well he he was reciting her to her which was my favorite part. He did a little better than you, I'll be honest with you. I love a white guy reading.

Kara, it's always, I like to think of it as not a white guy appropriating other people's intellectual property. I like to think of it as shavings of shit on a beautiful salad. Listen, she was amazing. She was a star. She was a star. It was a very good inauguration. What did you think? We're going to talk about that in a minute, but I thought in general, the show was good. Well, I was saying I cry every four years just

for different reasons. I found it very moving, very emotional. I think all of us are, have this kind of catharsis. You know, they say when people return. Well, not all of us. Some of us are unhappy. Like there's half the country's unhappy. Let the dog run. Let the hound run. Okay, go ahead. You know, when soldiers come back, when soldiers come back, supposedly when they touch American soil,

they get very emotional. And I think a lot of us had unexpected emotion yesterday and what I would call like a 24 hour exhale. But what struck me, and what I would call like a 24 hour exhale. But what struck me, distinctive, the inspiration and the hopefulness is that the bottom line is an inauguration took place in a militarized green zone.

We are not in a good place. And if you had not known what was going on and you had gone to sleep four years and a month ago and woke up and you saw that inauguration, you would think, are we in a nuclear war? You would not understand what was going on. They managed to cover it up pretty well. A lot of imagery, a lot of flags, a lot of military. Those flags were a genius move.

I think they did a lot with the military in terms of whether they're the Trumpet Corps or whatever. And Tom Hanks and they used the memorials rather well. You know, I think if Donald Trump had done it, people would have been angry. But there was Biden, right, at the memorial. Kamala Harris was there watching the fireworks. Katy Perry was singing. Bruce Springsteen.

It was really interesting. It was a nice piece of, I hate to say it, propaganda. It was a nice piece of propaganda. Imagery's important. Imagery's important. Yeah, imagery. And I think they did the lovely thing with the fireworks and they did cover up what was essentially a militarized inauguration. I'll tell you, if I could get in anyone's head, I'd like to see the master class called mixed emotions that it is Vice President Pence at that thing. Yeah, he did a good job. He was good. He was dignified. He walked down, he did his job. He comes out of this a winner.

He comes out of this a winner. McConnell was sitting there. They put Cruz way in the corner. Ted Cruz, he was way in a corner. But I thought it was nice to see all the presidents. It was nice. Why would he show up for something he doesn't want to certify and he thinks is illegitimate? I don't know.

He's going off on Twitter now these days about everything. He's such a dope. Anyway, let's just get a little more banter. Apple's reportedly talks to start a subscription podcast service to compete with Spotify. Is it too late for Apple? I know everything is what it means to us. Excellent.

But they're in there too. I mean, this was going to happen, correct? Yeah, and they're a player overnight because when you own the rails, when two-thirds of all income flowing through apps. Even if they don't, let me back up. The gangster move across media platforms has been pretty straightforward, and that is launching original content.

Netflix stock went on a tear from the moment they dropped Netflix full season. That was the innovation, dropped to full season. Joe Rogan did a terrible deal. He has added billions in shareholder value since agreeing to do a deal with Spotify. Spotify is going vertical because they realized that the music industry has smart people representing them.

They have their own oligopoly and they starch most of the margins. So it's very difficult to make money off of streaming music platforms. You need to launch your own original content. And Apple needs to go vertical. And they've launched their own content in the form of Apple TV+. And now they're coming for podcasts.

And heads, they win if they can establish a stable of vertical content and then drive a ton of people. I watch, the only reason I watch the morning show is because it was from Apple TV+. They've got some interesting things coming, actually. Some shows I was noticing. But I turn on my phone and I see, you know, it's three clicks. I've done this. It's three clicks to Apple TV+.

It's 17 clicks to get to Bridgerton, right? Because when you own the rails, you have certain advantages. So they will, if they can just come up with B plus talent, right? Yeah. So if they were to do me without you, come up with B plus talent, right? Yeah. So if they were to do me without you, even they could make me you, right? Is that the plan?

Ooh, perhaps I should not have said that. Tell Tim I'm busy. You cannot quit me. You cannot quit me, as they say. I hope I don't end up like that. But even if they don't establish, even if they don't establish their own vertical content, do you realize across every streaming platform from Disney Plus to Hulu

to Peacock, Apple gets between 3% and 12% of their total revenues by being the toll keeper for the app store. Yep. Yep. So this was a matter of time. And there'll be some issues. We're going to get into this in a second, but I think they got to be careful as they tread into this area because of antitrust issues. Because they're already at war with Spotify over music.

So the other thing that was interesting, we're going to get into the Biden administration in a second, was Trump's last minute floor. Remember him, Trump? Who dis? New president. He pardoned ex-Google engineer, Anthony Lewandowski, who was convicted of stealing trade secrets from Google

when he moved to Uber. It was supported by bigwigs in Silicon Valley, a lot of VCs, but Peter Thiel at the head of the line. That's a weird one. So that was Thiel? Yeah, of course it was Thiel, yeah. Well, it's nice to know that we have billionaires who can not only put media companies out of business,

but now can exonerate people from any scrutiny of the law. Yeah, that was a big case. That was a big case. That's going to piss off Google. That was a big case. You know, he was a complex figure, let's just say. But that was sort of the era of Travis Kalanick.

Can you give us just a quick note on what happened there? Well, in this era of Travis Kalanick, when Travis was- Oh, he's the guy that left with self-driving technology? Yes, he left with self-driving and whether he took it on this. And I don't even remember. We had reporters on it all the time. And it was really a significant trade secrets case.

Oh, wait, wait, wait. He's the guy that stuck a thumb drive up his ass, went to China and then Russia. Now everyone says he's a hero. Oh, wait, no, that's Edward Snowden. He didn't get a pardon. He didn't get- I would have given one to him over Anthony Lewandowski. Perdona me, son, Eduardo Snowden. He did not.

He gets to stay in Russia for the rest of his life. So Trump was his ticket out. But, you know, he was, I don't think he was going to get one. There was way too much pushback from the intelligence services. I didn't even know that was on the table. Yeah, oh, yeah. Him and Julian Assange, all those characters from that intelligence services. But- I didn't even know that was on the table. Yeah, oh yeah. Him and Julian Assange, all those characters from that whole era.

But it was Lewandowski that got it. It's just- What about Julian Assange's cat? That is an innocent victim. Steve Bannon. That's who got the pardon. I know. And then Janine Pirro's husband, Albert,

her ex-husband. She has a husband? Yes. Wow, I did not know that. She has a husband? Yes. Wow. I did not know that. You know what? They're all gone. We're at this point, we're sort of like, fine.

We don't, who? Fine. Kaylee, who the fuck? The way I did, the way I felt about all of it was, I'm in the midst of raising money for my startup section four. And I've worked with the same venture capitalist for a decade now. But when I used to raise money,

towards the end, they and their lawyers would just wear you down. And you would just be like, okay, you can have a pref of 7%, not 6%. They would literally just wear you down. That's how I look at our relationship, but go ahead. Don't say that. You don't mean that.

You don't mean that. I put spring in your step. In any case, they're gone. I am a blooming bouquin via across the home that is your life. Listen, we have to get to the big story. They are gone, Scott. You're going to have to leave. Let's have a moment and leave.

Let's smudge them out of our- You need to be more delicate with my emotions. No, I do not. I am very emotional. I am very emotional. Scott works out before these podcasts, which is really a problem because he gets all testosterone all over the place.

In any way, that's a verb, by the way. Listen, we're going to get to the big story. I am not a podcaster broken, but unfinished. Oh, hello, Amanda Gorman, my new role model. Oh my God. Anyway, this leads us to the big story. Amanda Gorman was fantastic. But we did a scout.

We have a new president. This week, Joe Biden was sworn in as 46th president of the United States. We just discussed that. Kamala Harris, the first woman to be vice president and the first woman of color to be vice president. Madam vice president. That has a nice ring to it. Madam vice president. She looked great.

She looked great. Everybody looked great. The whole gang of them looked fit. What? I think it's insulting that you would reduce the... Would you have said that about Joe Biden? Yeah, you would have. He looked great. She looked great. Everybody looked great. The whole gang of them looked fit. What? I think it's insulting that you would reduce the, would you have said that about Joe Biden? Yeah, you would have. He looked great too.

I thought everybody looked good. I thought everybody looked like, like all the ex-presidents looked good. I thought it was like a nice clean group of people. I don't know what to say. No, Biden, Biden looks 70. I kept thinking they're clean and well-dressed and I'm happy to see them.

Biden looks 76 again. Did he? I was thinking Bill Clinton. I think the mask, given what Bill Clinton's going through, I think the mask is perfect because it's sort of like, there's Bill, we generally have good feelings about him. Generally, I don't. But we don't want to see the contour of his face

and his emotion and think about him anymore. The mask works for Bill Clinton. Did you like the three presidents talking to each other? That was nice. That was wonderful. You know what I also thought? George Bush is funny. I saw Madam Secretary Clinton taking photo.

I think every time I see Madam Secretary Clinton in an unscripted moment, I actually like her more and more. I like Hillary Clinton. I do not like her husband, but that's okay. You don't have to like every couple. What a shocker. What a shocker you don't like her husband. What a shocker. I'm sorry like her husband. What a shocker. I'm sorry.

He got away with a lot. Anyway, nonetheless. Did a lot for America, Cara. Did a lot for America. Yeah. Last president to get in the way of genocide in the Balkans. I'll remember that.

Look, you know what? There's a lot of things I don't like about him. I'm not going to go into it. I'm not going to go into it. And anyway, let's focus on Joe Biden. Joe, just regular Joe is our president. Grandpa's, I'm grandpa and uncle or whatever you want to look at him. 46. So what do you think of the takeaways? He did all those executive orders, one of which was the first of which was around COVID. Obviously he's really getting to work.

His press secretary, Jenner, I think it's Saki. I think it's Saki, was like, I'm not here to yell and scream at you and flounce from the room, which was nice. You're not an enemy of the people anymore. But what was interesting is a lot of the stuff around COVID. And Amazon, as we have talked about, reached out to President Biden immediately offering to help with COVID-19 vaccine distribution. Amazon executive Dave Clark said in a letter, Amazon stands ready to leverage its operations, information, technology, communications capabilities, and expertise to assist your administration's vaccination efforts. It's interesting that they hadn't before this.

And why did they wait, for example? They also want to get vaccines for their own people because they've got 800,000 people, a lot of them frontline workers. So what do you think? What do you think? Well, you know, you hear about these stories that when people are diagnosed with cancer and the surgeons go in to remove it and they open someone up and they find that it's everywhere and they just close them up. That's the process we're undergoing right now, the Trump administration. We're doing an autopsy on his administration, and we're going to find that there was just cancer everywhere. And one of those cancers was that, you know, an immigrant who went on to lead the most valuable company in the world, Microsoft, a man who has, who was raised in the South as a gay man, a man who owns the Washington Post, and I think sees himself as a progressive.

They had no desire to assist in the lies and the disability and the disease that the previous administration was fueling with incompetence and propaganda. And that really hurt us. Nobody wanted to work with this guy. No one wanted to say, all right. Yeah, they just didn't know. Remember that meeting where he had the Walmart people? They just didn Nobody wanted to work with this guy. No one wanted to say, all right. Yeah, they just didn't know. Remember that meeting where he had the Walmart people?

They just didn't want to work with him. They all just saw he's not interested in actually saving lives. He just wants to get in between us and the camera and vampire off our credibility and our star power. And so it's no surprise that the moment he's out, you're going to see, you're going to see a plethora. I'm on the board of a company and we're talking about, and I'm, forgive the virtue signaling, we're talking about figuring out how ways we can send supplies or just food and sandwiches to vaccination centers. I think everybody, and this is the opportunity, everybody is thinking, how can we work- Kitchen in. Unity. With competent people who share our values to try and destroy this virus.

But I still, again, and again, I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. You know what would have saved 100 or 200,000 lives? Amazon. Well, not so much Amazon, but if Amazon, Google, Apple, and more generally the NASDAQ had declined 50% as opposed to accelerated 50%.

And the people who control our government, the people, the shareholder class, if their wealth had been cut in half and they had felt a fraction of the pain of people of color and- Stephanie Ruhl like point. That is an excellent point. This is, unfortunately our incentives are not aligned.

And if you are wealthy and this is a dirty secret and the ugly secret of the pandemic, you are living your best life. And so we have not had a full-throated capitalist response. We have, the virus has not seen what America is capable of. And, you know, within 10 days of World War II breaking out, Chrysler converted a factory to building tanks. And they were punching out tanks in 15 days.

And that one factory produced more tanks than the entire Third Reich. And we haven't had that kind of mobilization effort because people don't want to. What do you think of Amazon getting in here? It also makes me a little nervous. I'm like, oh, what are they going to get out of it? Like, you know what I mean? Knowing things. I think it's wonderful.

I think it's wonderful. I think there are a lot of people. Well, I'm not a fan. You well, I'm not, I'm not a fan. You know, I'm not a fan of Amazon. And I think, I think Jeff Bezos doesn't, doesn't, doesn't reflect the blessings. He's, he's registered in terms of his own code. But I know a lot of people at Amazon.

It's generally, generally speaking, as are most of these firms, a group of very bright people that want to do the right thing, that are blessed with a trillion dollars in market capitalization and the best supply chain infrastructure in the world. Let's put that bitch to work. Let's put that motherfucking supply chain to work. I'm so glad, for example, that Trump doesn't have his Twitter because he'd complain about this,

like Jeff Bezos did nothing. Now you'll see COVID going away. And I'm like, you'll see COVID going away because competent people are running the show, actually. And it's not going to go away. It's a long haul. You know, it's going to be difficult to get. I'll be interested because they didn't have much insight because the Trump administration didn't let them do transition efforts very well. What they find inside, right? When they open the drawers and be like, oh, look at this. Yeah, this is awful. Look at the cancer. But back to nationalizing the supply chain or enlisting it in our efforts here. There is a Walmart within 10 and a half miles,

on average, of every American citizen. The average hospital is 11 miles. They own, essentially, their parking lots are like, combined, the size of Rhode Island. You're going to see Doug McMillan, working with competent people at the Biden administration. This is just a projection. I don't have any inside information here.

Launch, remote, pop-up. Instead of click and collect, they're going to have click and vaccinate. Apple and Google could easily figure out an app strategy that scores you. They did though. The thing is Apple and Google, remember they were working on the app thing.

Walmart was at one of the first press conferences. It was all bullshit, is the issue. All bullshit. Nothing ever happened. So they had the inclination to do that. Like Jared Kushner called people and made them show up at the White House without masks, by the way, if you recall that. I remember that. I was like, why aren't you wearing masks?

What's going on? So it will be interesting to see how much corporate America does move in that direction. He now, you know, and that the Twitter noise is down. I know it sounds crazy, but it's like, it's governing time, not this loud, constant rondelay with the press and anger and statements and bullshit. It's so, that is, will take a lot of pressure off of everybody, I think, including politicians. But critics of big tech are concerned about Biden nominees to head up the antitrust division of the Department of Justice. There is an ongoing case about Google, and there have been others looked at. Renata Hess, who defended Google a decade ago and helped shepherd through Amazon Whole Foods merger, is the leading contender for the assistant attorney general position.

That is worrisome, worrisome. I have said this several times and people have slapped back at me. I'm like, these people are not enemies of tech in the Biden administration. They're quite centrist. So where's Elizabeth Warren when we need her kind of thing? We have racked up during the Trump administration

$7 trillion in additional debt, just another four to five trillion in the last 12 months. And at some point, we have to think about managing our house responsibly. Countries fail. Civilizations decline, not because they're invaded, but because they go broke. And we are on a path at some point, maybe not in our lifetime, but at a minimum, our children's lifetime of going broke. And one of the things we need to do, we need to have, in my view, and this is the first time I've ever actually come to this side of it, we need a one-time wealth tax. We are quick to do one-time

extraordinary bailouts when something exogenous happens, but we've seen the mother of all exogenous events, and that is billionaires massively increase their wealth, absolutely explode it. We need to do away with capital gains tax. And the most oxygenating revenue increasing thing we could do, we could do, would be to overfund the IRS, the DOJ, and the FTC. The concentration of power here has been like putting a boot on the windpipe of the American economy. Agreed. We talked about this, but look who they're putting in. Look who they're putting in. Oh, I think it's gonna happen.

I think he, I mean, you know these guys better than I do, but quite frankly- I know them, I know, I think they're centrist. I think Kamala Harris is in the center of this. I just, I don't think she's a- Well, the centrist, you say centrist like it's a bad thing. We need more of that. I understand that, but this is not,

this is a group of people that have to stick with our friends of tech. They are a little too close to tech. And there's a lot of tech people invading the government at this point. And I think you have to stick with the plan that the Trump administration started around these cases. I think they're going to. I think the breakup, the oxygenation of our economy has moved from the far left to the center. I think it's a centrist view now. I even think, I mean, we've been talking about this. This isn't true of Mark Zuckerberg. But I think Sundar Pichai is probably like, for God's sake, just get it over with so I can get back to planning products.

Right, absolutely. But I think that it's not, you know, especially around Facebook and some others. And Amazon, like Amazon's helping the government do the vaccine thing and then needs to be looked at around the marketplace. And so it'll be, it'll be interesting to see who gets power here. I'm going to wait and see, I'll do a wait and see, but a lot of it looks like same old, same old with the Obama administration. And honestly, the Obama administration, you know, blew this issue rather badly. You know what I mean? And I don't blame Joe Biden for this. I think it's Obama was in charge and his people, but there's a lot of Obama people there. And I think they're like, look, we have enough to point to that we have to deal with. And so we're not going to go after big tech

in the way they need to. I don't know. You know, it's the most underreported motion against big tech is the Texas AG going after Google and Facebook for cartel pricing. And the reason why that is so significant. Is that the one that needs to go to jail, Texas AG? Well, first off, the feds should adopt that because the Texas AG is, I don't know, what's the term, insane and corrupt. But the case is very interesting.

And the reason why the case is interesting is around cartel pricing, the remedies can be criminal. And there's nothing like the threat of an orange jumpsuit to get people talking and negotiating. They're not going in a jumpsuit. They're helping us to distribute vaccines. They're going to be our best citizens now. I don't think they're that easily fooled, Kara. I don't.

I think people have really, and maybe I'm just projecting here. I think people have said, okay, it's overdue and it's time. That's my sense. The House Subcommittee on Antitrust did a fantastic job. Yeah, David Cicilline, yeah. There have been cases propping up everywhere from different states.

I think they're going to stack right down to nothing. I think this is not their priority. And they've got a lot of other priorities. They do. By the way, was it in all their priorities that they were mentioning? You know, they were talking about the things.

And the things they're mentioning are critically important. That's the thing, racial justice, climate change, vaccinations, and COVID. I get that this is getting people back to work, back to school. These are much more important issues. I think I would have done a better, I would have said our top three priorities

are eliminating the novel coronavirus, eliminating the novel coronavirus, and eliminating— I would have gone all in on that. Yeah. Instead, it felt like Bill Clinton's triangulating off of all the key issues from a focus group. But anyways, I appreciate that he incorporated those things, and I think all those things were important. I like that he added in the Dreamers, the Muslim ban.

Oh, yeah, that stuff was wonderful. I agree. That was just like slapping— What was interesting about that event last night, and then we're going to take a break in a second, was how they were slapping Trump quietly without saying his name. There was a lot of slapping. There was a little underhanded slappage in the song choices. It's a new day.

Lovely day. The thing that defined, in my opinion, was like the icing on the cake or the exclamation on the point on the exclamation here was, was Vice President Pence's send off. It's like, okay, Donald Trump decides to even abdicate this responsibility. Yeah. Hey, ditto, nice job.

And that was, that was actually very lovely with the four of them. I thought so too. The couples. I thought so too. Also the winner of course was, is it Emma M. Hoff, the daughter, Ella? Ella M. Hoff.

Anyway, the one with the fantastic outfit she's fantastic she's from brooklyn she's so brooklyn the whole thing it's all about her it was like nice the new fashion icon so i'm a little i'm a little upset action was fantastic all over the place i'm a little upset you don't buy into my nerves the big tech's been breaking up and also by the way dorsey's out of a job and Tesla stock is crashing. All right, you keep going. I'm right about this. I think they're going to like... No, you've been more right than me on this.

I am going to keep banging on them on this issue. This needs to happen. And if it doesn't, Carol's going to be angry. Anyway, Scott, we're going to go to a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about management departures at Fox News and a listener mail question. Fox Creative.

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Managing Editor in Washington, who was assigned on the night of Fox News, called the election for Biden in Arizona particularly. He was very critical to that decision desk, announced his departure, his retirement. Fox also laid off 20 other staffers, including political editor, well-regarded political editor, Chris Stierwald, who worked on the, who was a key member of the decision desk. This is the one that called Arizona that sent Trump into a crazy,

and got in the way of his plans to declare victory that night. That's what happened. Like he was, he had a whole plot in place to declare victory and cause all kinds of problems. And things could have been different had Fox not done this. So let's talk about how Fox moves forward in its coverage because its ratings are down. Its ratings are down quite significantly, actually.

And CNN's happened to be up. I don't know if none of this will last, I think. But they're down quite a bit. And then I did a disfavor to myself by watching Hannity last night, and he's really doubling down on crazy in terms of all kinds of stuff. Having that Boebert person,

whatever the one with the gun, I call her murderous Sarah Palin, essentially, on with, who else was on with her? Oh, Matt Getz, all those horrible chuckleheads. What are they going to do? What do you do if you're Fox News? They got rid of people who were very significantly fair. So what do you do if you're the Murdochs?

And Rupert's entered the picture again because he was worried about how that decision was made. So I think that more important than the individuals or whoever the fall guys are. So I've always found that Fox is generally crazy, but prone to fits of sanity. I go on Fox. I like Neil Cavuto. I think that there's some, I like Chris Wallace. I think there are some outstanding journalists. Well, day side and night side are different. Chris Wallace was very clearless, was fine yesterday, did a good job. Agreed. And the problem is, do they just add a veneer of legitimacy to the crazy? But I think the more significant thing is the following. Linear TV thrives in crisis. The Iraq war made CNN. Trump has been the four-year gift that keeps on giving

to linear TV and the cable bundle. And just as Twain described going bankrupt is happening slowly and then very suddenly, Trump's or Biden's inauguration, in my opinion, is really the final death blow to linear TV. And it's not only going to happen to Fox. Their ratings are the first to go down because they come across as the most confused. And the crazies on the right, even they feel deflated and kind of, I think a lot of them are horrified. You know, the majority of us are center right or center left. And the center rights that went to Fox and saw what happened two weeks ago, I think are legitimately horrified and also exhausted like the rest of us.

And have decided, I don't need to tune in every day to see. Yeah, my mom's been watching Netflix. That's right. She's taking a break, right? I think a lot of people are taking a break, but quite frankly, we like to backfill and say, oh, it's Fox's fault. That's why their ratings are down. You know who's also really going to suffer? MSNBC. They're really going to suffer. And these linear TV that benefits from an immediacy from crisis, the most exciting thing about a Biden-Harris administration is they might be strikingly boring. Yeah. We might just have an administration that's not in our face every two weeks.

Competent, but boring. We might hear about our president every two weeks instead of every two hours. And that'll be wonderful for us emotionally. It'll be wonderful for the country. It's going to be awful for linear TV and the cable bundle. Yeah, you're not like waiting to see what's next. And you don't want to get, you're not as obsessed with getting Rachel Maddow's take on the latest outrage today because there is no latest outrage.

So the notion- So what do you do? What do you do? I want you to be like, you're at Fox, they bring you in and they're like, Scott. So what do you do? What do you do? I want you to be like, you're at Fox, they bring you in and they're like, Scott, I don't, golly, what do we do? Well, you know, they have, they have probably, but anyways. I mean. And also generally, I found generally nice and very smart people, but anyways. All right. Okay. Look, this is where the whole world, the whole world is bifurcating into Android and iOS. And this is what's going to

happen. Fox is going to double down on the crazy and the masses that are angry because there's money in it. They need to buy pillows. They need to buy investment trading schemes. That guy's going to be sued. It's going to be called Dominion Systems. They need to buy remedies for restless leg syndrome. They need to call personal injury attorneys. There is a market for that. CNN is going to go iOS and is either going to be acquired by a company like Twitter,

if Twitter gets its head out of its ass and decides they need to launch their own vertical content instead of chasing Google and Facebook. You're going to have CNN go iOS and go into some sort of pay model. And Fox is going to become the Android free, but we molest your privacy, lie to you. And Tucker Carlson is going to become the leading candidate on the right for president. Yeah. Right. So, but what do you do if your ratings are going down and you're, you do, you are getting slammed in terms of viewer, you know, being part of either the COVID problem, which I think they had to pay Seth Rich, obviously, on the

Seth Rich issue, where they had to pay the family for their lives. And, you know, there's going to be more around election fraud, I think. So what do you do? You just go crazy. Because I think OWN is going to be in trouble, too, all these things, because people can't stand I don't think they can stand the craziness for most people for that long.

So what do you do if you're OWN or Newsmax or whoever? So I want to be clear. I'm not saying what is the right thing to do. I'm talking purely, which is what I used to do as a consultant, think about putting myself in the shoes of a shareholder. If I'm a shareholder of Fox, if they're just economic animals, which I believe they are, and they're willing to tear the fabric of our society for shareholder value, you just simply put,

you just continue to lean into it. Because I think the smaller crazy guys aren't as smart and aren't as legally- And there's no Trump, really. Yeah, and they're not, the other crazy guys don't have the resources. They do not have the quality of personnel. And they, quite frankly,

don't have the billions of dollars and lawyers to serve as Kevlar. So Parler, I don't want to say Parler is an easy target, but when you go crazier and you don't have the resources and connections and user base of the Fox, you're just more vulnerable. So rumors of Fox's death have been greatly exaggerated,

or Fox News's death. All right, that's interesting. And not only that, and it's not good for society, but when CNN goes more truth, look, the truth is boring. Novelty is more interesting. Conspiracy theory is a lot more interesting. I got to say, CNN's got a cleanup sack.

Some of their nighttime anchors are just, I'm like, stop it, stop it. Like, I'd like to have- Well, they're the same flavor. I think you're definitely not, I'm not going to it, stop it. Like I'd like to have- Well, they're the same flavor. I think you're definitely not, I'm not going to tune in every night. I've noticed my shifting on Twitter. I'm not tuning in all the time.

It's an interesting thing. Like you don't need to worry, essentially. You don't have to see what crazy shit is going on. And I think that's both an addiction and an emotional, like not a good thing emotionally for people. So I think it'll be interesting to see. I do think that what's interesting about Fox,

obviously it's being run by Lachlan Murdoch and now Rupert's back, even though he's 117 years old, is that when he dies, the other kids get control, not Lachlan. So that'll be interesting. It'll be James and his sister Liz and their other sister Prudence and they have control of the company and

yeah but one of them is a progressive and has publicly said he's horrified isn't he he's horrified of the content all of them are all of them

is that true I think there's going to be a really interesting situation when he dies that's my impression yeah but people have a tendency to value money over ideology

and when you're talking I think they've gotten plenty of money out of it I guess they'll probably end up selling it i don't think the kids are yeah they'll sell it they'll sell it off i'm just saying it's not going to be this isn't going to go on for too much longer in terms i mean although rupert murdoch's mother died at 106 or something like that so who knows yeah wow we'll see but that's going to be an interesting moment i'll tell you that that's going to be you know but. I'll tell you that. That's going to be, you know. But you bring up something that I think it's important. And that is, look, I think MSNBC, you know, I'm a progressive, so I didn't find their content as offensive.

But it was a similar spice dish in terms of, okay, let's spend three hours tearing down the president and exaggerating. It wasn't as bad, but it was bad because the business model is just much better around novelty and exaggeration and inflammation. And I think this is not only an opportunity for them, but I'm trying to take this opportunity to heart. I've decided I am not going to get back in people's faces much on Twitter. I am not going to respond as aggressively. I faces much on Twitter. I am not going to respond as aggressively. I'm going to try to be more thoughtful around, okay, say more. I don't understand that point, but say more. First, I'm going to investigate if they're a bot. I find 90% of the people that really say something inflammatory on Twitter or Facebook, actually,

I don't go on Facebook, are not actually a real person. But I think it's an opportunity for everybody to say, all right, if you think of yourself as being bipartisan and reasonable, then be bipartisan and reasonable. Oh, Scott, you're going to ruin our show. They open the patient up and there's cancer everywhere. Listen, speaking of which, moving on, let's take a listener mail question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hi, Cara and Scott. This is Kristen in Sacramento. We've reached a dangerous point where a large part of the U.S. population ardently believes in conspiracy theories and ignores science, fact, and rational thought. What changes, if any,

could be made to our educational system from kindergarten to university to teach critical thinking and counter these undemocratic forces? Thank you, Christian from Sacramento. That is a very smart question, I have to say. Let me just begin and then Scott can talk about the educational system. I think these people believe this stuff before. Conspiracy theories have gone on since the beginning of time. What's happened is they're becoming weaponized and amplified through online. And where people usually got news, they're getting a bad information diet.

And so they believe it more because of where it's coming over, either through Fox News or OWN or Newsmax and then online. So I think this has already been there forever. And it was not like people didn't believe in the moon landing. They didn't believe in the earth was flat. This is humanity. And unfortunately, it's been given amplification tools to do so. How to fix it, Scott?

I'm going to leave that to you. Oh, I don't know if I have a silver bullet. I turn to, like I've said, I think Mark Zuckerberg is what you get when you replace civics with computer science. I think civics and more importantly, history and science are really important. And that is, I was studying with my, or helping my son study for a history test. And, you know, I said, okay, who's the European explorer that first saw the Pacific Ocean. And once they saw there was a Pacific Ocean and they had a credible individual that they trusted, they redrew the maps. And that was a new starting point. And we have to, I think, teach our children that throughout history, the most important advances in our society

is because we get to a point where there is a new base called truth that is evidence-based and data-based and science-based. And we all come together as a society around a set of values and a set of truths. And if we don't come together around a set of truths and work from that base, we don't have a country. We don't have a society. And I think we've lost fidelity to that. And that is we've let people say, okay, if I deny a truth or I put out a falsehood, if it's out there enough with these amplification algorithms, that eventually it seems less outrageous or less false or more true.

And there has to be a truth and there has to be training at a very young age that says the most wonderful things in our society are a function of we continually build on this base of science and data and truth. And at some point- How do you stop the flood though? I mean, it's really is a flood now and it is over stuff that used to be delivery of really decent news or news that was not this bad. Accountability. We can't have unity unless we have accountability. Otherwise we're not unifying around anything that's real. It's squishing and it's amorphous. And one of the things we need to unify around is that there is a truth.

And when a senator refuses to certify a legitimate election, when the CEO of Twitter refuses to do away with a Trump account for 449 of 416 days of his tenure and then finds out within 48 hours, or we find out within 48 hours of eliminating accounts, 72% of the misinformation goes away. And they clearly knew that.

We need to hold these people accountable and teach people that there is a truth and there are ramifications for intentionally ignoring that truth for your own economic benefit. But where do you do that in the educational? So she's asking specifically, where do you do it? In high school, college?

I think there are a lot of very interesting lessons about dark points in history, about people who have weaponized the truth using the media, and also to link the truth around a truth that is evidence-based, peer-reviewed. We have, I mean, i work with 190 faculty and 99 of the research they put out has what i'd call no commercial relevance because we've decided in a modern society ev the pursuit of truth that is evidence-based double-blind peer-reviewed is the base from which we build a society and we need And we need to inculcate our youngest people in that once we get to a truth,

once 62 judges have rejected any allegations of election interference, that is our truth, Senators Cruz and Hawley. That is our truth. Their whole argument is they didn't get to hear the evidence because they didn't have standing. They kept pushing on that, just so you know. I listen to a lot of their craziness. So here's the problem, I think, is that we don't,

that Bannon got pardoned, that Brad Parscale is still out there. They know they have been able to manipulate this stuff. And now I think they're off getting new versions of that. And that's what I'm worried about. And who do they affiliate with? You know, I think they've used Trump up like an old paper bag, essentially, and they're going to toss him. And well, they'll use him until they need to. And they'll prey on his many, many weaknesses, including narcissism and et cetera.

But they are going to figure out new ways to misinform. And that's where I want to be sort of ahead of the game here is what are they up to now? What are they moving in on now? What are the abuses they're going to take? The tools they're going to take advantage of and the abuses they're going to perpetrate doing that. And I think they stay ahead of us so quickly in terms of us trying to teach people civics or ethics in school.

But you're right. These companies are where this starts. These companies have to not tolerate this happening again and again and again. And they do. They tolerate it. And they're doing it maybe out of some laudable idea around free speech, but it's really not. You know, the Peter Thiel's are in charge here, not the most.

I'm more hopeful than that. The algorithms of amplification are weapons. And we have mostly, mostly dealt with how to regulate and punish people who abuse weapons. And over the medium and long term, we have to have an appreciation for education and history and science and truth. In the short term, absolutely. Absolutely.

The thing that would have the most impact, the most impact is a big tech executive does a perp walk. You keep wanting a tech. This is never, I know this is your dream fever sequence, but they're never gonna take a perp walk. We have put people in prison for so much less. Aunt Becky, she's out now.

If we put Aunt Becky in prison for sending $50,000 to a tennis coach, we should arrest somebody who has knowingly, knowingly aggravated, inflamed, and used their infrastructure for the coordination of sedition. And that has happened across these platforms knowingly. Somebody needs to do a per block. And it was outrageous when I said these companies were going to be broken up

three years ago. It was outrageous when I said Sheryl Sandberg was in the next coming of Christ. You watch. It may not happen. She's supposedly reaching out to democratic people, just FYI. Yay. I just want you to be prepared for her re-entry into the political scene. It may happen on European soil. It may not be the individual, the most famous individual. The most effective thing we could do in the short term across any of this comes down to one word, accountability. The only way we unify is we need to unify around a set of values. And these values have been torn apart

and there needs to be accountability. I just think they throw someone to the line. Like, I don't feel badly about the parlor guy, but I think he's a scapegoat. I think that's right. I think that's true. I mean, I think he deserved it. He's a heat shield.

Yeah, I think I gave him a heat shield by doing that. Anyway, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Thank you, Kristen from Sacramento. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact. You know what's not easy? Marketing. And when you're starting your small business,

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Okay, Scott, it's the end of an era. We start a new one. Besides your perp walk situation, give us a hopeful prediction. You can give us a non-hopeful one. Well, I am hopeful, Cara. And I think that there's enormous opportunity that once we enlist, you know, the reason we won World War II,

people like to think, and our young men and women demonstrated exceptional bravery and creativity, but quite frankly, we overwhelm them with gasoline production and just brute force. And the engine of capitalism, young people are embracing socialism. They're wrong to do that. The friction and prosperity of capitalism, the full body contact friction, and also the recognition that we'll be winners and losers creates a level of prosperity that we then, through empathy and redistribution of income

and social programs such that seniors don't starve, such that people are not food insecure, creates more prosperity, more mobility, and wash, rinse, and repeat. Capitalism works. And when we finally have the opportunity to put a full-throated capitalist response to this virus, if we just get to, if we get to 100 million vaccinations,

which is approximately a third of the population, if it's targeted at our most vulnerable and the people who have the most contact with other people as a function of their profession, we could probably take fatalities down 80%. And I don't want to say that as a means of providing cold comfort that this war is over, but I would argue that the war has begun. We have a fantastic weapon. We have been given a P-51 Mustang. I don't want to say we've learned how to split the atom because that sounds a little macabre, but we have been given a fantastic gift.

I think the Trump administration deserves some credit for that. I think you have to give the science, the pharmaceutical companies, the CDC, and to a certain extent, the Trump administration. But we have a fantastic weapon. And now when we put a full-throated capitalist response behind it,

the greatest engine of productivity and prosperity and history behind it, I think in 90 days, 120 days, we could see a dramatic crushing of the growth. 100 million in the arms. That's what they say. That's right. And the key is that it's in the right 100 million arms. You know what? I want Jeff Bezos to show up at my house and give me my vaccine.

They're so well-positioned to do it. They're HIPAA compliant. No, I want him. You want him? I want him in particular to come to my house and give me my vaccine. Well, they're so well positioned to do it. They're HIPAA compliant. No, I want him. You want him? I want him in particular to come to my house. I think he's sticking himself every week with something called testosterone. Jesus, have you seen how jacked that guy is?

My God. Yes, said the man who like jacks himself. That's right. Hello, ladies. Gun shows in town. Oh, no. He's showing me his arms. It's really disappointing on many levels.

That's right. I'm going to do a thing. Speaking of working out, Peloton will be in the White House. You do that silly story in the right. I'm going to do a thing, speaking of working out, Peloton will be in the White House. Did you see that silly story in the Times? Oh, he's doing a Peloton? I love when our Times story was silly. He has one, and they were going on about the digital problems with it

because it's a connected device. But Peloton has been in the White House, according to my sources. Who uses a Peloton? Michelle Obama had one. I think Michelle Obama had one. And they can unconnect it and then just put a computer full of all the classes right there. And bring a new bunch of classes in every couple of weeks, I guess. It's very easy to bring a Peloton.

It was such a ridiculous, oh my God. But I'm glad, frankly, he's working out. Like, God, we have a president who actually works out. Actually, I heard Melania had one and she hung her Christian Louboutins on them. Okay, that is my prediction. Come on, you love that. She was, that outfit change of hers, I was like, I really can't stand your lady, but well played. Like, she put on the Gucci.

She, like, was wearing all black. She went from a man who said Black Widow to, like, Gucci Palm Beach lady in, like, 14 seconds. Let me ask you. Did you see that picture, I'm just curious to hear your take. That outfit was like, seriously, I was like all black. Like she looked great, even though kind of in that kind of cheap way. I want to ask you something. But it's not cheap, the expensive cheap way. Give me a sense.

Yeah. Two, four years out. What is Melania's legacy? Nothing. She's just a nothing worker.. Two, four years out. What is Melania's legacy? Nothing. She's just a nothing. To zero? I'm sorry. Zero.

She's a selfish, rich lady. I don't know what else to say. I hope her kid turns out well, I guess. I think she seems like a very good mother. But her values are just, even just reading that Stephanie Wilco, just the tapes, she's just a type. If you're ever around really rich people, that's what a lot of those ladies are like. I have been around a lot of those ladies

and she's just like them all. I think that's biased. I think that's a cartoon of rich people. I think a lot of rich people got rich because they're good people. I get it, but not her. Yeah, no, I 100% agree with that. There's a class of Florida lady that you have met

and she is the top level of that. We're talking about Ivanka, right? Oh, wait, no, Melania. Melania, sorry. I know, Ivanka. That'll be the interesting one. We'll see how she does legally. Governor of Florida.

Whatever. I got to admit, I would enjoy that. I'm thinking of writing her a check just as a point of light to push her into the race. I would enjoy that. I just, you know, Melania's I get. I totally, she's garden variety, rich lady, you know, that kind of lady, bought rich lady.

Ivanka, I don't even begin to understand and unpack that. Try something new. That was her advice to people struggling. Try something new. I'd like to see her real personality. I'd like to, I'm like, let me see what you're actually, I mean, she's mean.

She seems mean to me underneath. And I don't know. I just would like to see the real Ivanka. Yeah. Ivanka. She reminds me of a couple people I covered in Silicon Valley. Can you get her on? Would she ever come on Swag?

Would she ever come on Pivot? You know, Jared is in my class. I wouldn't call us friends, but we're friendly. I wonder when he- Difficult person to interview. Let me get your advice and then we'll go. There's a couple people like a Josh Hawley who I was thinking of interviewing for his book

about tech and stuff like that. I don't know whether I really want to have them on because the constant lies that you just sit there. So, you know, Bill Mayer had Kelly and Conway on. You know, someone pointed out, and this is correct, is he blocked 25% of her lies, but then the other 75% got through. Bill and her have been friends for decades.

Okay, fine. But nonetheless, whatever, if you have any of those people on, I don't want to, I am not going to be able to block every stupid lie. Like in the case of the parlor executive, no one knew what he was thinking. And so I got his, but we know what Josh Hoshley thinks.

He's also seditious as far as I'm concerned. And so, you know, I'm just using his as an example. It's like, I don't like Ernavonk or any of those people, which I'm not interested right now. But you spend your whole time blocking lies and you can't block them all. You know what I mean? It's like slap shot, slap shot, lie, lie, lie. And so I don't think that's helpful. And if I do well and get like 60%

of them, everyone compliments me for blocking lies. And I don't think that's a very big, I don't think that's a very big talent. I think it's just what it is. What do you think? So I think with Kellyanne Conway, we should just stop giving her oxygen. I saw this TikTok of

these screeds she goes on against her daughter. And I thought, A, that's an invasion of privacy. And B, I'm just, let's just stop giving her oxygen. I think you are a reasonably good interviewer. And so, look, I think a journalist such as yourself, who's informed and not afraid to push back on a senator who's trying to position himself as a presidential candidate and also sees himself as someone who's thoughtful about tech, I think that can be productive. Okay. Yeah, I think there's a difference between giving oxygen to Kellyanne Conway and to Senator Josh Hawley because he is elected by the people. He is a viable candidate for president. because he is elected by the people. He is a viable candidate for president.

And he's, in my opinion, you know, guilty of sedition. And I think you will have the ability and you have the backbone and quite frankly, the balls to say, a lot of people would argue that you understand these cases were sent down. Aren't you guilty of sedition? Your turn. I mean, I don't saw. Yeah, I think that you're a legitimate journalist. I have to say, there's a lot of people like that. And I'm like, yeah. But sometimes journalists love to get these slap masks. And then they go, oh, what a winner. And I'm like, nothing's been won there.

Nothing's been illuminated. You're just slapping down lies. And they get kudos for it. Like, oh, good job slapping down Trump's lies. I'm like, why? Why? We knew he was a liar. Like, why is that?

Yeah, but here's just one last thing. Scripture tells us to envision that everyone shall sit under their own vine and fig tree and no one shall make them afraid. Says Amanda Gorman. Says Amanda Gorman. Oh my God. Oh my God.

I'm going to talk, you know who I want to talk to? Amanda Gorman. I want to talk to Amanda Gorman. I want God. Oh my God. I'm going to talk. You know who I want to talk to? Amanda Gorman. I want to talk to Amanda Gorman. I want to talk to people like that. Anyway, Scott, as usual,

this was fascinating because we are so fascinating. And why are we so fascinating, Kara? Because it's because being American is more than a pride we inherit, Kara. It's more than a pride we inherit.

Oh my God, gangster. I love this young woman. Okay, but we're not, let me just say, even though MSNBC and Fox have problems, we don't because there's always trouble in business, Phil. So we are always there to give you insight. What happens to us when Trump is gone?

Have we contemplated that? No, we don't talk about it. We talk about a lot of things. Oh, we've got lots of places to go, my friend. The places we shall go. There's always a WeWork around the corner. My green eggs and ham's lover. There is always a WeWork around the corner. My green eggs and ham's lover. There is always a WeWork around the corner.

That's right. Okay, that's the show. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your question for the podcast. The link is also in our show notes. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Our show was engineered by Ernie Indretod.

Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or if you're an Android listener, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech.

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