Pivot - Inside Elon’s New Bio, A.I. Goes to Washington and Guest Kristi Coulter

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

Kara and Scott dish on their big date night at the U.S. Open. They also preview A.I.'s big week on Capitol Hill before Kara gives her no-holds-barred review of Walter Isaacson’s Elon Musk biography. Our Friend of Pivot is former Amazon employee Kristi Coulter, who's pulling back the curtain on tech company culture in her new book, "Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career." You can follow Kristi at @kristicccoulter. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway. Coco! Oh, yeah, that's exciting, right? Yeah, you tweeted about it. What an amazing thing. She was this little girl at the Open a couple years ago, like, jumping around and dancing and watching the action. What an amazing show.

We went. We will say we went, and we saw an amazing match of the semifinals. We had a great time. We did. We had a date. Yeah, we saw an amazing match of the semifinals. We had a great time. We did. We had a date. Yeah, we had a date. Took us two and a half hours to get there. We literally involved jumping over a fence. God helped me with his long legs, me and his friend, Mike. We were shorter and we literally had to jump over a fence and wander across a wet meadow. And we managed to get there and had a beautiful time. As close as I've been to Burning

Man. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, there was's mud there was mud um we had a good time that was really nice don't you think and of course um i got did you get a shit ton of text messages because the yeah is that ben stiller yeah karen scott ended up on the big screen at the u.s open but only because in between us was zoolander yeah which, who they identified as Derek Zoolander, which was funny. And the evening kind of was epitomized by, I of course went to the bar to get a drink because neither you nor Ben drank.

And so I'm at the bar and someone comes up to me and is like, hey, I have a quick request. And she had her camera out. And I'm like, oh, that's a fan, of course. I'm like, and I immediately go, oh, I'm happy to. And I posed with her and she's like, do you think I'm like, oh, that's a fan, of course. And I immediately go, oh, I'm happy to. And I post with her and she's like, do you think I could get a picture with Ben Stiller? And I'm like, sure, just come over.

And what I will say about Ben is 10 or 20 people must have come up to us at different moments, including like pivotal match point or set point. And he could not have been more gracious, excited to see them, whether he was or not, and just really, I don't know, a scholar and a gentleman or a model and a gentleman. He really is. He's so, he's such a, like he produces, I was just thinking about it as I was taking the train home, like what he produced from Zoolander to Dodgeball to Tropic Thunder, which is my favorite.

But then also he was doing Severance, just to really, and of course his parents are legendary. His parents are Ann Mira and Jerry Stiller and just legendary people. But what a, he could have been such a douche. He's not. Speaking of douche, you know, he and I enrolled the same day at UCLA. He dropped out, you know,, things have worked out for him. Literally. Severance is Amanda, my wife's favorite thing she watches.

She's so smart. And, you know, she's an intellectual, unlike the two of us. It's very dystopian. Dystopian. She loves it. She thinks it's so beautifully constructed. He's working on it, of course, because of the strike. It's not coming out yet.

But getting back to the tournament, boy, we were super impressed by the crowds and how fun it was. Great event. You know, USTA is doing very well, obviously. Yeah, great event. It's largely because of Pickleball, but no. But, you know, they have some stars now. I mean, this young guy, Carlos, was it?

Alcaraz, is that his name? Alcaraz. He was amazing. He was in the semis, and he was such an exciting young player. And, you know, he got beaten by more experienced people, but it was close. It was much closer. And then 19-year-old Coco Goff won the tournament, the youngest American to do so since Serena Williams in 1999, the first American to

reach the U.S. Open final since 2019, beat Venus Williams at Wimbledon 2019. And Novak Djokovic won on Sunday, marking his 24th major championships. Well, just before we leave the discussions around the U.S. Open, I used to date tennis players and or a tennis player. And I've decided I will never have a relationship with a tennis player again because, Kara, love means nothing to them. That's good. Oh, God. At least it wasn't a penis joke. That's good. You literally, you cringe.

You're like, here it comes. I got four or six emails. Your son was so charming and penis guy's back. Yeah, that's right. That's right. All right. Well, that was a good one. I liked that one.

A little luff, luff, luff. It means egg. It means zero. I explained that to you during the tournament in case you're interested for people. It means luff. Literally, Ben was like saying, okay, this is how they score tennis and i'm like i know how they score tennis maybe he doesn't think you're very smart yeah he was helping me out there you know we just we it was good we also were there with stephanie rule we like hanging with the famous people

you know we do oh no we're total whores we're total whores someone said that to me i'm like yeah what of it like what you just figured that out they're like oh you've posted this a lot we're like yeah famous friends like I don't know what to tell you sorry we're those people

anyway but he's actually a lovely person too at the same time by the way speaking of famous people I was on the latest episode of the Smart List podcast

which is hosted by Jason Bateman another nice guy Will Arnett and my good friend Sean Hayes let's listen to a clip let's listen to a little clip

of me talking to Jason Bateman. But then he also has Starlink, which is different, which is doing satellites. What's Starlink? Which is internet. It's satellite internet. It's being used in Ukraine quite actively for battlefield communication.

As opposed to fiber optics? Yeah, it's a satellite. And he's got the, nobody is as far along as he is. Same thing with SpaceX. Why is that more advantageous than fiber optics? Because it's a satellite, and he's got the— nobody is as far along as he is. Same thing with SpaceX. Why is that more advantageous than fiber optics? Because it's in the air. Places where they don't have the cable laid. You can't drag the cable to where—

I got you, I got you. Where do you live, in Los Angeles? It's all cable. You got cable right up your ass. Yeah, Will Arnett did not like Elon Musk. Yeah, he hates him. He's really aggressive. Hates him. I was defending him, and I am not did not like Elon Musk. Yeah, he hates him. He's really aggressive. Hates him.

I was like, I was defending him, and I am not a defender of Elon Musk. I was sort of like, there's something, you know, visceral. It's almost like love. It's like love, hate, love, hate, love, hate. Yeah, that podcast, first off, congratulations. And I'm a little bit jealous. I've never been asked to be on a podcast. You will.

I hope so. Call me. Anyways, never been asked to be on a podcast. You will. I hope so. Call me. Anyways, so, but those guys do a great job. They're super likable and they have great chemistry. And did you enjoy being on the show? I did. I did. I was very, you know, I've known Sean for a long time.

Because you're gay, right? All gays know each other. Is that right? All the gays know each other. No, I did an interview with him a million years ago and we just hit it off. We're just, I just really like him personally. He seems very likable. He's super successful too. He's super successful, too.

He is. Oh, yeah. No, he's a producer. He's one of these people who seems like, oh, just Jack, but he's not just Jack. No, he's a baller. He's a little like Ryan Seacrest in that way. He has a lot of irons in the fire, including he just won the Tony Award for this play he did. And everyone says Jason is a really sweet man, like a really nice guy.

Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet. Will was a lot. Everyone says Will is weird. No, he just was really nice guy. Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet. Will was a lot. Everyone says Will is weird. No, he just was a lot. I was like, calm down, Will. It's fine. Speaking of which, today we're going to talk about the revelations from the new Elon Musk biography by Walter Isaacson, AI's Big Week on Capitol Hill, and we'll speak with another former Amazon employee, Christy Coulter, about her revealing new book, Exit Interview, My Life and Death of My Ambitious Career. I love that title.

By the way, speaking of smart, Disney and Charter reached a deal ending the blackout fight. Not good for either of them. The agreement was reached just in time for Monday Night Football. I think that probably was the pressure to air on Disney's ESPN. Terms include subscribers receiving discounted wholesale prices for Disney streaming. A big deal for Charter because Disney's been just shoving all their shit on their Disney Plus platform. And Charter's paying an increase in subscriber fees. So everybody gets something.

That's always a good way to settle these things. Yeah, good. I'm glad they did it. And it feels like they all said, all right, you know, this is just bad for everyone to be. Anyways, I'm glad they settled. I hope everyone's happy. Yeah, I think they just pushed the problem down the field of where this is all going, which is linear televisions in severe decline. And they've got

to figure out new fresh ways. It doesn't mean it has to completely be because it's distributed all over the world and in the country. But it's certainly they've got to really not do these things anymore. It's a fight from a different era, and they've got to figure out how to work together. But I don't know. United Auto Workers are headed for a strike. This is a big strike. The union, which represents more than 140,000 workers, is negotiating with General Motors, Ford and Chrysler maker Stellantis simultaneously. Both sides have until Thursday to reach a deal. The UAW wants a 40% pay hike over four years, increased retirement benefits and shorter working hours. A strike as short as 10 days could cost the big three automakers $5 billion.

Agreeing to pay a 40% pay hike would cost between $4 and $6 billion over four years. That's a lot, according to Goldman Sachs Equity Research. The UAW has raised over $800 million in funds to support members if the strike happens. The last automaker strike was in 2019 when GM workers hit the picket lines for 40 days, causing GM to lose $3.6 billion. Not good. Good for Elon. I think that's it because he's anti-union and does not have a union shop. Just to be fair, most non-U.S. auto plants, whether it's Rivian, which is obviously an American company, but Toyota, Honda. I mean, the market share of essentially of U.S. automobile companies in America has been cut in half. of essentially of U.S. automobile companies in America has been cut in half. Now, you could argue, well, if a Toyota is being made here, is it an import or is it domestically made? But this is another example of, I would argue, that unions don't work. And that is the most

heavily unionized automobile manufacturers have seen their share cut in half. And then they would argue, okay, Scott, but this has been an enormous opportunity for the working class to get health benefits. Unions, to their credit, have been outstanding forces for more diversity in the workplace. I think they take that very seriously. It'll be interesting. I would bet this gets settled. You know, one has said, I'll give you- UPS did, right? UPS did.

Yeah, because their incentives are aligned here. I think the auto industry, I don't know if it's strong right now, but I think it's, they're not striking when the companies are weak, which is where the riders really screwed up. screwed up. They're striking when the industry is actually, you know, used car prices have come down and automobile prices have come down since COVID, since the supply chain was getting ungunked. But the auto industry, you know, they know they're going to have to give them raises. Many feel these are not untoward, some of these requests they're making. Yeah, they say, give us more money, all right, and better working conditions. Don't stop using automation, right? Don't use AI or we need, there has to be, you know, 12 workers per every station. They're not saying, they're not making these amorphous planning minds for the company that they just don't want to plant behind them or in front of them. So my guess is this, they end up somewhere in the middle and continue to produce, you know, big, big trucks.

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. I was sort of looking, this is more the UPS strike, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll rattle some chains, but eventually they'll settle this one. They have to compete. The stuff that's ahead for them is really tough. The shift to electric being innovative and different is going to be hard for them, very hard for them to do in the first place and make changes on the fly and et cetera, et cetera. And they've got real competition from not just Musk, but others who are sort of doing auto manufacturing in a new, fresh way. But it's a difficult business, no matter how you slice it. Okay, let's get to our first big story. Obviously, we'll be hearing a lot about AI on Capitol Hill this week. There are

three Senate hearings over the next few days focusing on oversight, safeguards, transparency, and more. This is quick for Congress. Last week, Senators Richard Blumenthal and Josh Hawley introduced their latest framework to regulate artificial intelligence. Plans include licensing AI, creating a federal office to oversee the technology requirements for data transparency, security standards, and more. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is also hosting a closed-door forum on AI on Wednesday. Everyone's coming to town. The biggest names will be there, including Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Bill Gates. Musk and Gates will be the worst, or they don't like each other.

Well, none of them like each other right now. Well, Musk and Zuckerberg don't like each other. Altman and Musk don't like each other. Gates and Musk don't like each other. So nobody likes him. They all hate each other. No, Zuckerberg and Gates are close. Zuckerberg and Gates are close.

Well, okay, because they're not a threat to each other. And Altman and Gates are close. They're all the people standing up at Miss Universe or for Prom Queen and they pretend to like each other and they fucking hate that bitch. Well, yeah. It's funny that Bill Gates is now sort of like liked much better. The statesman? The gentleman? The gentleman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it is. So what do you think of the proposed plan? Senator Blumenthal has said the framework should, quote, should be put on a path to addressing a

promise in peril of AI. I think they're moving quickly. Blumenthal is a sharp cookie on this stuff, I think. He's put himself front and center, at least. I think they're, it sounds front and center, at least. It has been effective in the sense that I think they realize we really should get out ahead of this, unlike being constantly behind what's happened with the rest of big tech. So hats off to them. I think Senator Blumenthal, Senator Warner, I think, you know, Senator Klobuchar, I think they really do understand where they have staff. I should say they do understand tech. staffs, I should say, that do understand tech. And, you know, we're two-thirds of the Senate really, really understands this technology called catheters. These guys... You need to stop.

Enough already, Kara. Send them home. Jesus Christ, send them home. Okay. Anyways, I think that I've heard from some folks, you've heard from some folks, and they're asking really good questions, and they have really smart staffers. I think there should be a division of NATO. I think the Joint Chiefs of Staff need somebody in the chiefs that understand or are specifically charged with this. I'd like to see an individual, not a cabinet level, but I think that this is a defense issue. This is an economic issue.

level, but I think that this is a defense issue, this is an economic issue, and it should probably include more than AI, because there is a decent feeling of, you know, there's a decent train of thought that AI is coming out of its hype cycle, and that AI isn't going to have, you know, quite the impact that this techno-narcissism that my technology that I've invented is the singular point that will save humanity or destroy humanity is It's kind of cut from the same cloth. But I would like to see, I think our Defense Department has to be very involved here. I'd like to see, you know,

I don't know if it's the FTC or the DOJ that get involved early. I don't know. It feels like it. I think another division is necessary. I do. That probably makes sense. Like Space Force.

Space Force. Space Force. I do think there's the difficulty is that it does affect like everything from agriculture to state to everybody. And so when you have someone over all that, they have no power, right? That means, you know, master of none, right? You know, essentially master of none. And that's the problem where if you don't actually have the agency power, you don't

have the power. So how can you have an innovative people who understand technology and is staffed by people who understand technology? You know, some of the stuff they could do is punitive, like Section 230, how Hawley and Blumenthal want Congress to clarify 230 to say it does not cover AI. I do think this is an important thing. Absolutely. Because then, you know, they have litigation over their heads, which is from regular people and everywhere else. And I think that's important. There have been a lot of hearings over the last couple of months. Laws on the books would be great. A clarification of Section 230 to me is the most important thing.

But, you know, Senator Schumer tweeted the other day, because this is making him young, speaking of young, we're moving forward quickly on aid to meet the urgency of the moment. I just think he's decided it's a good press release myself. It's hard to take someone seriously around technology that uses a flip phone. And that's not a joke. It's the truth. Yeah, I agree. So again, I mean, he's one of the younger ones at 105. He's the one that once told me Facebook wasn't that bad many years ago. His daughter works for Facebook. Yeah, but that's not why. That's not why.

He just does. He thinks that. But I think he must get. He thinks that. But go ahead. Yeah. So, look, I don't. They need.

This all comes back to the same place for me. We need more churn. We need more turnover. Even look at our politics now. No one is happy with the options at the top of their ticket. And we have a system that where the incumb win 92% to 95% of the time. And the result is we have the oldest elected leadership and the most intransigent, the least amount of churn. And the result is we don't have the skills and the youth and the fresh thinking we need to stay ahead.

And private sector moves in to take over everything. Well, I mean, let's talk about, I don't know if I'm skipping around here. If you look at the antitrust here, look at Microsoft and Google now, right? Google has learned so much from the sins of the father. And that is, okay, let's talk about lobbying. Let's talk about the individual and the perceptions. Microsoft decided, no, we're so awesome and we hate this whole pay-for-play thing, we are not going to give money to lobbyists. And that just came back to bite them. They had no friends in D.C. when they came up on this huge antitrust monopoly case, too. the individual and the perception of that individual are really important. And if you look at Bill Gates' testimony, he comes across as diffident, arrogant, dismissive.

You didn't want to like him. And the reality is the judge and whoever, if a jury ultimately ends up listening to this thing, they're human. And then, so what have they done? I think Sundar Pichai, in addition to probably being an outstanding manager, is just so fucking likable. So Google has spent a shit ton of money on lobbying. And then when Sundar gets up there, you're like, he's so nice and gentle. He wouldn't engage in monopoly abuse. They have- He's reasonable. He's reasonable. But the similarities are also quite striking and why Google should ultimately, in my opinion, be broken up. And that is Microsoft, when they went to court or were accused of antitrust and

when they went to court or were accused of antitrust and monopoly abuse in the late 90s, had a 90% share of operating systems. Basically, your on-ramp into the digital world was controlled by one company. Now let's look at search. It's a $150 billion business, maybe even a quarter of a trillion it's headed that way. And one company has a 93% share. And right then, and then they will say, but size isn't necessarily bad, Scott. I'm like, you're right. And we can get so many benefits we can offer to consumers with size, even though everybody uses it and we're the dominant player, size is important. I'm like, you just described a utility and utilities are regulated. Their prices are regulated. So which is it, guys?

Yeah. Well, you know, I told you Mark Zuckerberg described Facebook as a utility to me when we first met, the day we met. He says, we're like a utility because he was all, you know, tweaked about how popular MySpace was as sort of a club. He said, well, we're a utility. And I was like, great word for yourself. It was, you know, it was striking. Well, we'll see. The European Union is already further along than the US. The European Parliament passed an AI Act back in June, one of the first, world's first AI regulation laws. We'll see. We'll see. I'm glad they're doing this, I guess. I just would like something to actually happen. I do think, you know, Blumenthal and Hawley are probably the more competent of these. And again, I don't often compliment Josh Hawley, but I think he does know what he's talking about here.

He's smart. He's very smart. Yeah. And he's on this stuff. If he gets away from the, I'm being censored bullshit, it's fine. Like I get it.

Power. And all I'm concerned is power in a single hand is a private sector is a problem for me. No matter what you think, we'll talk about that next, but it will be interesting to see what will happen. If there was a cage match among those people, who would you pick? I think Altman. Cage match between who?

Musk, Zuckerberg, Altman, Gates. Are we talking about the cage match of life, intellect, physical? I don't know. Just the cage match? You pick. Yeah, cage match. I don't know. I think Bill Gates thinks the long game. I don't know. I think Bill Gates thinks the long game. I don't know. I think, and not only that, I don't think Bill Gates is like shoving up ketamine up his ass in every orifice every 30 minutes. Not that I'm accusing anyone of anything.

No, no, we'll get to that next, speaking of which. All right, we'll see what happens. We're looking forward to it. We hope it's more than a press release and a lot of jabber jabber. We'll go on a quick break. We come back, Russia, Ukraine, and Elon, and we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Christy Coulter, who's sharing a lot about the inner workings of Amazon in her new book, Exit Interview. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night.

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Oh, my God. But perhaps the scariest story involves his interference in the Ukraine-Russia conflict. Elon essentially, he didn't foil a Ukrainian attack, but he hadn't enabled the Starlink satellite internet that they needed to use at the time. I had told you about this many times a year ago. Remember I told you the Ukrainian official said, can you get him to not geofence Crimea? Which is, you can't, basically geofencing is, I don't know if you've ever ridden a scooter, you can't go to part of an area and it just doesn't work.

So it doesn't work in a certain area. That's what he does, essentially. So, and I was like, why are you asking me? But just press pause there, because this is a key, and this is, I'm asking this to learn not to make a comment. Is your understanding, there's a big difference here. Did he turn it off or did he refuse to turn it on? He geofenced. They wanted him to not geofence it.

That's when they came up to me. I've said this on this show. He was geofencing Crimea or 100 miles within it or something like that. They were very disturbed. And they said it's really hurting because they can't make attacks on the heart of where they're shooting these rockets. Can you get him to not geofence? Okay, so Ukraine reached out to you.

I was at a party and this Ukrainian defense official came up to me and said, what can we do? And I was like, well, first, don't mention my name. Second, are you fucking kidding me that this guy is making these decisions? And, you know, and I thought he had become somewhat of a Putin asset from his tweets. His tweets sounded like when he parroted the talking points of Sergeirov or whatever his name is? Yeah, exactly. Anyway, it wasn't on. He didn't go and actively get in the way of a move that they were making. I think it wasn't on, and they weren't able, maybe they thought it was on.

Well, Isaacson got it wrong in the book. When I read it, I was like, that's not right. And then he corrected himself, but in correcting himself, he also complimented Elon for not probably stopping World War III, which is horseshit. And I focused in when I was noting this, the fact that one person gets to decide this right or wrong, he shouldn't be doing this. He's unaccountable. He can do whatever he wants. He's unstable. He's prone to being manipulated by the Russians. So that was, you know, Elon thought he was going to cause a major war. Anyway, I read the book. I've read the book. Well, first of all, that was the thing that really struck me. And I think similar to Will Arnett, I have a bias against Musk.

And so I just feel like that's a fine print here. But I feel like almost everyone that comes into this guy's orbit leaves damaged reputationally. And it's already happened to Walter Isaacson. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, I got this wrong. But they were clearly coordinating with each other. They were clearly like, okay, this is serious shit. And people are understandably very visibly upset. So Walter came out. And I think Walter

strikes me as a person of integrity and says, I got this nuance wrong, and I'm correcting it. But then he went on to say, he thought, Musk thought he would start nuclear war, and I agree with him. And quite frankly, Walter, neither you nor Elon Musk are qualified to make that assessment. And there are thousands of men and women who spend years in military college looking at every scenario, who coordinate with our NSA, our security apparatus, MI6, the Ukrainian government, and they get to make these decisions. And the ships the Ukrainians were targeting are also shelling civilian neighborhoods. And the Russians invaded. Russians invaded. Let's start at this top.

Again, we're not experts, but it seemed like, I think at the very least, we can say, why is this dude deciding these things? That's exactly right. So ignore whether you like Elon Musk or not. And let me set some context here and acknowledge something. The fact that he's had the vision and can bring together the resources, the capital, and the technology to put 51% of all satellites into space and then use innovative ways to leverage them and it becomes so crucial to the world, including geopolitics, that is nothing short of amazing, of amazing. The problem becomes that when we have an enemy, Russia is our enemy. Yeah.

Meeting with North Korea. This is the definition of treason. The definition of treason is betraying one's own country and or aiding the enemy, aiding and abetting the enemy. Aiding and abetting the enemy. How is a unilateral decision by an individual who has not been elected, not been appointed, has no background in geopolitics, is not coordinating or checking in with our elected leadership? I think he might have checked in. He might have checked in, but he shouldn't be doing this. There is no way. No, apparently he did.

That's what he says he did. They said he did. Well, okay. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I'm going to go with the whole he's lying thing when he says that. Because so far, the Defense Department and the government are pretty freaked out about this. But do we want a situation, and this is where it's headed, where all of a sudden the Chinese Navy starts getting closer and closer to Taiwanese shores. Yeah, and he geofences them. And they start looking as if they're going to invade Taiwan. And the only way Taiwan, which has a fraction of the kinetic power of the CCP in China, the only way they can fight off these folks is with the deft use of new technologies.

kids, is not living with anybody and sleeps with a gun next to his bed, is going to turn off their communications when China begins to invade because he has his largest factory in China. Yeah, I agree. I'm going to stop you just for a second. There's a couple of things. I agree. There's not going to be any consequences. I don't think it's treason.

I don't. I just don't. It's just, it's really problematic for our government. We've got to find alternatives to him because he's not reliable, I think, in that way. Brilliant, but not reliable. I will read my review. I did a mini review because I'm reading all these reviews that are trying really hard not to insult Walter. I'm interviewing later this week. I like Walter. I don't, I can't say I like this book, I'll be honest with you. But here's my mini review of the Musk bio. Sad and smart son, solely morphs

into mentally abusive father he abhors, except for with rockets, cars, and more money. Often right, sometimes wrong, petty jerk always. Might be crazy in a good way, but also a bad way. Pile O' Babies, not Steve Jobs, you're welcome. That's my review. Pile O' Babies. Pile O' Babies, yeah, that's the name of my band,

Pile O' Babies. There's another baby shows up in this thing. It's a lot of silence without coming to conclusions about someone. He wants to have it both ways, Walter does as a writer. And at one point in the interview, he goes, well, I just was silent. I'm like, okay, you were silent while you're doing the interviews. I get it. Let him talk and spin things out. But you don't have to be silent now. What did you think? You never know what he thinks except for a couple of asides. He never, he interviewed far too many of Elon's friends. And then when he's shitty to people, he gives them equal status to Elon's thoughts on what happened versus the persons like that guy who actually created Tesla, like they're

on equal ground. And I'm like, well, which one is lying? Like, you know, I kind of wanted a little bit more analysis from a smart person than Alter is. It actually makes Elon boring. I don't know what to say. I'm like, rocket blows up, rocket blows up, rocket blows up. Oh, one worked. And it doesn't feel soaring in any way. And his accomplishments around rockets and cars are inspirational. They are. But he's still a jerk to everyone. And that's, then you're like, oh, God, what a jerk. And then he's sometimes right.

Like, he's like, let's just get rid of Val. Let's take the risk. And Walter keeps going, and the risk worked. Or the risk didn't work. And I'm like, well, what's the conclusion? He's just lucky half the time. Like, is he lucky? Is he smart?

Is it smarter to be lucky or lucky to be smart? I think Walter Isaacson, we'll go down, is the iconic biographer of our generation, right? And the reason why is in addition to being exceptionally talented and putting in the work, he has – this is a form of access journalism, what's going on here. Because at the end of the day, if he were to say, this is an individual who, regardless of whether he had a tough upbringing, he's also had a very privileged upbringing. Regardless of his upbringing, regardless of trying to find a reason to justify it, this is someone who is behaving like an asshole. Who has, he describes it as a lack of empathy. This is someone who is behaving like an asshole. He describes it as a lack of empathy. This guy is cruel. Walter has this premise around all these people, which I don't think he likes to click in like a Lego, which is, you have to be a demon to be great. And I'm like, really? Let me just read you the last paragraph. I'll just do it.

It's a pleasing concept, an impulse control button that could diffuse Musk's tweet as well as his dark impulsive actions. So impulse, impulse, there's no editor around. And the demon mode eruptions that leave rubble in its wake. Block all these metaphors. But anyway, but would a restrained Musk accomplished as much as Musk unbound? Is being unfiltered and untethered integral to who he is? Could you get the rockets to orbit or transition to electric fuels without accepting all aspects of him, hinged and unhinged?

Sometimes great innovators are risk-seeking man-child who resist potty training. Again, block that metaphor. They can be reckless, cringeworthy, sometimes even toxic. They can also be crazy, crazy enough to think they can change the world. I mean, I don't know what to say about this paragraph, except, oh, we're going to have it always? They can also be crazy, crazy enough to think they can change the world. I mean, I don't know what to say about this paragraph, except, oh, we're going to have it always? You're not going to come to a conclusion? Walter is engaging in our favorite pastime right now, and that's an idolatry of innovators that excuses cruelty, that excuses anti-Semitism, excuses misogyny, excuses being, quite frankly, not an ideal father,

as long as you're really fucking rich. He's being an apologist, an apologist for this new class of assholes called tech innovators, that this whole notion that would he have been able to accomplish these things if he wasn't cruel? So, we should forgive him for this totally unacceptable behavior. And guess what? There have been a lot of people who have changed the world, who didn't feel a need to spread homophobic conspiracy theories. There have been a lot of people who have changed the course of history that didn't feel a need to start doing these anti-Semitic dog whistles. So this notion that we have to—what he's saying is he deserves to be forgiven because he put rockets in space and he's really rich. And that is, Walter is engaging in the same techno-masturbation idolatry of these folks that sets a terrible example

for young business leaders. Yeah, I actually wrote to one, a pretty big guy who was like going on about it. I was like, you love this tech porn, don't you? You love it. You just, it doesn't, you don't understand the damage. Let me say, Sean McCreesh of New York Magazine, who's a wonderful writer, wrote what I think is the smartest sentence about this. He goes, when Isaacson wrote about Steve Jobs, he was already a largely beloved figure at the end of his life. He wasn't

influencing wars or foreign policy, pimping for Tucker Carlson, fulminating against something called the woke mind virus, or beefing with the Anti-Defamation League. He was making really cool consumer technology. There's a risk for Isaacson in applying his time man of the year approach to Musk to cover him as he did Jobs. He can be a real prick, but he'd check out all these neat toys he made since Musk is probably going to be around for decades more. Who knows what his ultimate legacy will be? I thought Sean got it. That's right. By the way, I know Walter is like, Steve had demons, not even fucking close in terms. And also, if you go back, and as I recently have with my memoir of listening to some of the things he said, they were smart, they were prescient, they were, you know, if you're

talking about the public Steve Jobs, not, just not this. This is something very different. And they are forgiving Elon for it in this book. You know, if you don't know anything about Elon, it'll be interesting to you to see rocket blows up, rocket doesn't blow up. Let's use a valve that's on a bathroom sink and that'll work. That's, it's fine. You'll like it. Like, but in general, I want him to, I want, I'm going to press him very hard in our interview. Why can't he come to a conclusion at this moment and at this juncture in time?

I think he's scared to. I don't know why he doesn't. Here's the thing here. The way he becomes, continues to be the most iconic biographer of our time is that all these famous people agree to have him in country. And they're not going to do, if he had decided, wow, I have, I have bunked down with this guy for the better part of three months. And I've come to the conclusion that despite his incredible accomplishments, that he is a megalomaniac and dangerous, and there just aren't enough safeguards, and this guy has become a national security threat

and a threat to our society, the next ridiculous Sam Altman is going to be less likely to say, hey, come do a biography on me when he becomes the most famous tech guy. This is, in my view, you could argue, well, he just sees the best in people. Okay, that's a nice thing. It's also, in my view, just an understandable form of access journalism. Even if he had come to the conclusion that I think a lot of smart people have is that power corrupts, and this is the ultimate example. If he were to say that, if the last paragraph were to say, Sam Altman summarized this individual perfectly, and that is he really is interested in saving the world as long as he is the savior. I thought that was the best description. Yeah, I agree. I think Sam's very prescient. I think one of the things, you know, when we were trying to make the Jobs comparison, which I think Walter's going to try on the show, but I knew Jobs

as well as he did, so I'm going to not allow that to happen. Steve Jobs ultimately was quite wise, right? Was quite wise and tasteful and just wise. I think Elon's a dilettante after reading this. Like, he's like, I'm playing this game. Like, he's quoting, like, you ever been around someone that suddenly starts quoting Proust to you? That kind of stuff. And doesn't really know Proust. Like, and I don't either, by the way. That's what it feels like throughout this book. We roll in different crowds. Yeah, I know. But you know what I mean? Like, it's like, I'm like, Steve Jobs was really, like, when I went back to listen to those interviews, he predicted podcasting. He predicted, like, I didn't even remember him doing it, but he did. Like, it was kind of interesting. This guy is an accomplished entrepreneur, no question. And you come away from this book knowing that, but a prick the whole way, and it became,

and he became a dangerous prick is what happened. The amount of anger he has towards taking credit and is also weird, which I think Walter does. It's impossible not to point out like the anger he has toward all these various people who have left the company is just enduring and then being excused. And what he uses is he uses women to let him off. He's like, well, he's a demon, but when he's nice, he's nice. I don't want to be around bad Elon. You know, and you're sort of like, Amber Heard gets a harder time in this book than Elon Musk. And that to me was like, all right, crazy actress, fine. Like, I don't know. But Amber Heard

and his first wife, Jessie Musk, who is, I think, wonderful, get a harder time in this book than Elon, which to me was sort of weird. The most damaging thing you said about the book is that you found it boring. Boring. I did. I did. If you don't know about him, I guess it's not. I don't know. I was trying to know so much. I know these stories already. But yeah, we'll see.

I think it'll sell a ton of copies. Even my mini review got a million views or whatever. I mean, people are super interested in this guy. And I think it'll sell a ton of copies. You know, even my mini review got a million, you know, views or whatever. I mean, people are super interested in this guy. So, and I think they're, you know, pushing my stuff down anyway. Like the New York Times. I don't know if you just saw that. Yeah, Mr. Free Speech throttling the New York Times.

Yeah. By the way, have you seen I'm 60 days Twitter sober. I'm still not back on. I know. You're doing a lovely job on threads and elsewhere. So, and one of the things I love being asked is, I get a lot of shit from people who are like, you've turned comments off.

We can't comment for you. How dare you as a journalist? Which I'm like, go fuck yourself. But I'm like, you know, let me just say to people, once and for all, the reason I, I've been on Twitter since 2007. I was there at the very beginning. Now some 15 years later,

I had to turn off comments after Elon took over about six months in because I got called a bitch and a cunt all the time, and I don't want to deal with it. And so I'm sorry I turned them off. I wish I could turn them on, but I had never experienced it in 17 whatever years, some odd years, and then I did. And so if it's too bad for you, it's too bad for you. Anyway, I will have this upcoming on interview with Walter. I think Walter and I, I've interviewed him in New Orleans last year. We had a tussle. I think he thinks things behind the scenes that are different than what he's saying,

but we'll see if he'll actually, I want to hear what he actually thinks. We'll see. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot, Christy Coulter. She's the author of a new book, Exit Interview, The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career. The book details her 12 years at Amazon, where she held leadership roles in merchandising, publishing, Amazon Go, and more. Welcome, Christy. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. So you're really pulling back the curtain here, sharing all the ways Amazon made me smarter and all the ways it damaged me. This is not a happy story. Tell me why you wrote it, sort of these company tell-alls. And we were just talking about the Elon Musk book where Walter Isaacson was embedded with him, which we're not impressed so far, but I'm sure it'll sell a lot of copies. Tell us why you wrote it.

Well, I mean, the glib answer is when I left Amazon after 12 years, I didn't get a formal exit interview. And I felt like I had something to say. And I thought, well, here's another way I could say it. The better answer is that I am fascinated by jobs and work and there's not a lot of work memoirs out there, especially by people who aren't famous for the job that they're doing. You know, Elon Musk is a different case and especially by women. And I thought, you know,

we spend so much of our time at work. There's so many dramas there. We fall in love. We reenact our family traumas. Why don't we talk about this more? And so I thought this is an opportunity to do that as well as to talk about ambition, female ambition, which is something that's still kind of a hot button in our culture. And I wanted to just kind of address it head on. I see.

So you left in 2018. You've been there longer than almost all the employees. It's a long time you were there. I want to just say, for people who don't understand it, you were there. I mean, I started covering them further back than that, way back in the 90s. But you've been there quite a long time. How do you push off the idea that you're, and I'm going to say this in a nice way, a disgruntled employee, right? So that's like, there's disgruntled employee books and there's disgruntled employees. And most of them, I believe, and when I used to cover people, I would have to make sure, are they just disgruntled because they're right or disgruntled

because they're wrong? You know what I mean? That was always the thing. So talk about dealing with that because you want to point out the difficulties, but at the same time, you stayed 12 years, right? policy book. You know, every year, I would think, I can't do this anymore, and that I would stay. And part of it was, frankly, the money. You know, money solves a lot of problems. It's really nice to have. The thing about Amazon is it's fascinating. It was, it damaged me. And it was also the most fascinating place I've ever been. I was never bored a day of my life. Some boredom would have been nice, maybe. It was a place where you could work on crazy things that nobody else would let you do, that nobody else would fund.

I basically almost never felt like I ran out of runway there. And that hit something inside me. I think, you know, I also have an addictive personality, which I talk about in the book. And I think it also kind of touched that addictive part of me that wanted those little dopamine hits from really doing things I thought I could not do. And, and finally, it's a company where you can reinvent yourself over and over if you want to. Yeah, but it's also a company. I mean, the New York Times chronicled this and others did. It's not just sometimes not so kind to warehouse workers, which has been well-reported,

or unions, et cetera. But that piece in the New York Times is all about how mean they are to executives, like, or that it's a tough culture. I don't mean mean. And it comes from Bezos, I can tell you. His sunny personality is not as sunny as people. Of all the people I

know, what he's really like and what he puts out in the world and what he's actually like is quite different. You write a lot about sexism, for example, you encountered Amazon. And you do make a distinction between the culture of Amazon and Silicon Valley's reputation, writing, quote, masculinity at Amazon looks more like stoicism and duty than cocaine and ball pit orgies, having never been to a ball pit orgy. Can you talk about that? Yeah, Amazon, you know, the culture is so fearful and so relentlessly pressured, that it really is sort of like you're on a death march together. Not always. I mean, it can be fun, too. But I think it's brutal for everyone. And it's not so much any always. I mean, it can be fun too, but I think it's brutal for everyone and it's not so much any individual.

I mean, I do think obviously it's coming from somewhere. Most of the people I've worked with were actually quite kind and fun, but it's like Amazon, the organism just thrives on this fear that you're never doing enough and you'll never be enough. And at this point, I don't even know how you would interrupt that. So yeah, I think it is tough. I think it's tougher for women, but I think it's hard on absolutely everybody. I was in something like the 99th or 98th percentile for tenure when I left. Most people, anecdotally, I hear don't make it two years. So there's a reason for that.

Yeah, it's a tough culture. totally, I hear, don't make it two years. So there's a reason for that. Yeah, it's a tough culture. Nice to meet you, Christy. So my sense is that high-pressure trade-off that people make for the money and the prestige and being associated with a platform like that, that that is pretty common across any of what you would call high-performing companies or companies that add, I don't care if it's McKinsey, Goldman, Salesforce. They talk a big game about balance. My impression is they say, look, we own your ass for a good decade or two decades. And if you don't like it, go to work somewhere else, which you can do more easily than 99% of the population because you have this name on your resume.

And in exchange, we'll give you economic security so that you can have a lot of balance later in your life. And I generally find that monopolies, and I think Amazon is a monopoly, I apologize for the long-winded question here, treat their employees really well on a risk adjusted basis. And if you don't like it, you can go somewhere else and have a greater quality of life. At one point, Amazon was hiring like 20% of my kids. When I say my kids, my students at NYU. And generally speaking, they had a really super intense, super high pressure, but on the whole said wonderful things about having worked at Amazon. What are they missing? What do you think are the – is there anything here when you peel back the onion here that you found that people aren't talking about that is bad about Amazon?

Because generally the reviews I get on a balanced scorecard are that working at Amazon, it's a good place to work. I'm glad to hear it. I would be curious as to what kind of game plan they went in with and whether they plan to, you know, make a career there or get in, learn, get that name on the resume and get out. I think it can be very good from that

perspective. You learn a huge amount. Amazon made me so much smarter in a lot of ways. I think for me, a lot of it was just hitting the wall over and over, over 12 years and realizing that I could not outrun the culture, you know, that that culture was never going to love me back, was never even going to like me back. Well, hold on. Let me just press pause there. And granted, I haven't had lunch, so I'm in a bad mood. Didn't they love you by paying you a shit ton of money? Which she noted, but go ahead. Okay. I'm just saying. They did. They paid me a shit ton of money and I appreciated it. Okay. That's corporate love.

Okay. That's corporate love. Yeah. And I think I was, you know, in some ways I think of this as a coming of age story, even though I was 36 years old when I started. I had worked at a small company in the Midwest that was, you know, 250 people. And I was the kind of girl starting from girlhood, you know, who was like promoted every two years, like clockwork. I was used to getting that kind of external validation. I certainly knew that it wasn't the only thing. But at Amazon, just even a simple thank you, I needed that. I needed that on top of a shit ton of money. Well, the question is, should work be more, right? Because this is what these companies are struggling with, especially like Andy Jassy, as tough as can be. I wasn't, when everyone was like, I can't believe he said this, but he

reportedly told employees in August, it's probably not going to work out for you if you don't return to the office. Now that's a tough line. It's not a like, we're working with you. He could have done a number of different lines. And Andy's one of the nicer ones of that gang. Let me just say. He is, he is. There's a term for that, the corporate world up until 2021. Right, exactly. But I'm just saying, this was a sentence he could have said a very different way. Is that, do corporations, as Scott says, owe you anything more than money or, and then you choose to go or stay? And I'm not talking about warehouse workers, because that's a very different situation.

You know, they need to have air conditioning for, they just do. Right. They shouldn't be painting. Yeah. I don't think they owe employees anything. I think it might be intelligent to give employees a little more. I know that in Seattle now, you know, I hear over and over about people who won't even take the Amazon phone call. They've just ruled it out as a place to work. I think at some point, you know, you start running out of the kind of candidates that you want to hire, unless you are bringing people in relatively early in their careers, like Scott's students, who can go in, kick ass for a couple of years, and then a lot of them are going to think, okay, I'm moving on. I think it would be smart, but they don't owe it. No, they owe the compensation

they promise in return for labor and time. That's all they owe. You know, my observation is that, similar to living in New York, when you work at a place like Amazon, the big decision point is, quite frankly, when you have kids or you have something else in your life that requires attention and passion and your focus. That that's when, I mean, I've always thought, and I'm curious what you said about sexism at Amazon. at least gender discrepancies and pay on people under the age of 30, where sexism really still rears its ugly head in the labor force, is when women decide to have children. But I'm curious, one, if you agree to that, and two, what types of sexism you saw or registered at Amazon that you think is, you know, is or is not endemic to the big tech? Yeah, so I don't have kids. I knew a lot of women who either left Amazon when they did have kids, or just kind of their careers just kind of faded almost went on, you

know, it's like a mommy track. You know, having like a 7.30am meeting at Amazon is not uncommon in person. And you know, unless you've got someone out striving your kids to school, that's really, really hard. It's definitely not a company that, that goes to any lengths to accommodate people who have children. When I got there, you know, there were no nursing rooms. There, just little things like that. I would not expect that of a Jeff Bezos run company. Yeah. They have them now. So, you know, they, so things have changed. But so that kind of thing was really tough. And most of the women I knew who stayed a long time were women who did not have kids. Not universally, of course. Is it different between Bezos and Jassy? Because, again, he's a softer side of Jeff, but Jeff is tough. But Jassy was trained under him. Is it

different? Is it, when you say it has to change, what do you think? Because hard charging and hardcore, and again, just having finished this must biography, that's a favorite word of these people. Hardcore, hardcore, right? Meanwhile, they have all the help in the world, and they've got women having their children for them. They've got suck-up people who work for them, who will put up with shit for the money. Is it different from Jeff to Jassy? And then what is the biggest problem they're facing,

if that's the case? You know, it's interesting. I've worked closely with Jeff Wilkie. I don't know Jassy as well. We've met a couple of times. He's always impressed me. I think he's super, super smart and actually has a fair amount of emotional intelligence or displays it more readily than Jeff does. It's been interesting in watching the return to office stuff. A lot of other companies talk about luring employees back to the office, you know, with silly things like free food, but also just, you know, kind of acknowledging this is a change. From what I've seen and from what I've heard from friends at Amazon, Amazon's not, there's no carrot. It's been all stick. It's kind of just like, yeah, you're going to come back and, or else it's not going to work out for you, which I thought was an incredibly blunt thing to say. In kind of a nice way, frankly.

I appreciate that. frankly. I appreciate that. By the time I left Amazon, the physical environment was so crowded and loud that I found it difficult to do any work that wasn't a group meeting there. And that's what I keep thinking about. Maybe people want to stay home because now they're doing less work at midnight because they can actually think during the day. I think Amazon, and you know, I mean, I am me. Amazon is Amazon, they're going to do what they want. But I think they're going to need to start thinking about, can people, you know, I often felt like I was being dared to get my job done at Amazon. And do people want to feel that way? Or do they want to feel like there's some place where they can be minimally supported in working for such a tough company and having a life and being able to work during the workday and not just at home at night.

Again, I think it's intelligent. I think it's intelligent to think about these things unless you plan to just keep churning through people for the rest of your existence. people for the rest of your existence. So being on the other side, seeing Amazon's leverage from the inside, is your view that Amazon should be broken up, that slowly, incrementally, the company, as they're supposed to do, in a focus on their own stakeholders, their shareholders, their employees, their own community, slowly but surely engages in monopoly abuse and monopoly power. Do you think Amazon should be broken up? Yeah, I'm inclined to think so. I mean, I don't consider myself an expert on this, but it seems to me in my understanding of monopoly that, yeah, I think Amazon should be methodically broken up. It is too powerful. It is, and I'm not one of these people who's like,

oh, it's a great evil plan. I mean, I heard 12 years of people acting like Jeff Bezos was Dr. Evil sitting with his hairless cat, you know, plotting world domination. That's not the deal. Although let me just tell you, Christy, when I met him, I found my notes from that first meeting, and I wrote feral. Wow. Which was interesting. It's in my book.

I was like, feral was the word I used because he did this laughing thing and his simple guy thing. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, yeah. Feral. Right. That's what I thought. I thought he would eat my face off.

That's what I thought. Just FYI, because I've been spending time with him on his boat and the one word I've used was thong. Oh, God. That's good. Yeah, yeah. spending time with him on his boat. And the one word I used was thong. That's good. Let me, let me ask you one last question. Actually, if you could be the CEO for a second, what was the, what is the one thing you would change there? And again, you're not the experts, they've done very well for themselves. Let's just acknowledge. But what would be the one thing you would change? Company daycare, company subsidized or supported daycare, ideally, you know, on site or conveniently

close by. It is the one thing women at Amazon have been asking for, for, you know, since time immemorial. There was an all-hands meeting where Michelle Wilson, who was then the SVP, I was told this by someone who was there, I wasn't there, said, someone asked, and she said, if I can make it work, anyone can. You know, and she's, I don't know how many millions of dollars she's worth.

That did not go over well. I think Amazon, yeah, I know. Don't even say it if you think it, lady. I wonder if she thought, why did I just say that? It was terrible. And I think the company has steadfastly resisted it. There's no, I don't understand why. I think they would have access to a lot more talent.

Because you have to work on a desk for fuck's sake. That was also, I actually did a story where I went and found out desks were just as expensive as a fucking Ikea desk. I was like, this is just performative bullshit. Oh, it is. Your simplicity. Especially overseas.

I've heard that shipping them overseas, like, because I guess they do just ship them over that it costs a fortune. Such bullshit. And they suck. They snag your clothes. They're terrible. Just buy a Kia.

Like, what the hell? Like, for goodness sake. Anyway. All right. This is a great book. People should read it. Christy, thank you so much. Exit Interview is out today.

Enjoy your Exit Interview with Christy. Thanks for your time, Christy. Thank you very much. So after we hung up with Christy, Thanks for your time, Christy. Thank you very much. So after we hung up with Christy, just before she told us, before we finished taping, she said that Jeff Bezos likes pirate booty, just so you know. Well, we know he likes booty. I'm sorry, pirate booty. Oh, I thought I walked you right into that. Come on. I happen to like pirate's booty, too. Just going back to what Christy said, I don't think child care offered by Amazon is the way to go.

I think that calling on CEOs, better angels, don't hold your breath until the companies that can afford it do it and end up becoming more and more powerful. In other words, monopolies can afford that, and then they begin to pull away from other companies and other companies can't afford it. I think child care is so important and would be such an economic boom to our society because it would unlock a labor force, not only new entrants, but people who – I've told you this before. Other than you, every talented – almost every talented woman I know, when she hits about a certain age, it's just like if she has the choice, she's just like, fuck it. I'm sick of hitting my head against a wall here, and leaves the workforce. So, we have this massive brain drain out of corporate America. And universal childcare should just be federally mandated. So, nobody, it strikes me that there's very few places, whether it's funding the IRS or giving

more money to lower-income people in terms of tax structure that creates more of a multiplier effect, they spend all of their money. The recession, quite frankly, has been held off by these stimulus payments that we're giving to lower- and middle-income households who spend all of it. There are a few things we could do to unlock more productivity in our economy over the medium and long term than universal pre-K child care, because too many talented people have to leave the workforce. And while we'd like to think that it's a new age and that people are taking across genders

more responsibility for the household, 80, 90 plus percent of childcare responsibilities still ultimately digress, fall to the woman in the relationship. And it strikes me that you're never gonna get there or you're never gonna have, the ones who need childcare the most aren't the women working at Google and Amazon. Most of them can afford it. It's a smaller company that's not nearly as profitable that ends up – they just can't compete.

They don't have the money for it. Anyway, my TED Talk is over. Okay. I like it. I like it. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for Predictions. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to

free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fizz.ca. Scott, we're back. Let's hear some predictions. My predictions, I have two. The first is that power abhors a vacuum. And the biggest power void, the biggest black hole of power right now is in the most powerful sphere in the world. And that is nobody is happy with the choices for president right now.

Two-thirds of Democrats don't want Biden to run. I think that there are just a lot of people, while Trump has a very hardened silo, the majority of America just does not want to go back there. It strikes me that when you're talking about the most powerful position in the world, and it's basically like, you know, Snow White and the seven dwarves across both parties now, there's an enormous vacuum. So my prediction is within the next, I get the time, my predictions are usually right. I get the timing wrong. In the next 90 to, I don't know what the timing is around filing, someone we're not talking about is going to pull a 20% plus because both parties are unhappy with their candidates. And I wonder, that's just such, and I'm not saying that person will be successful. I'm not saying that person will get the nomination.

Someone we're not talking about is going to, I think if Mark Cuban announced he was running for president, he'd be pulling at 20%. I know, I love, Mark Cuban online slapping around Vivek Ramaswamy is a fantastic moment in my life. He'd be at 20% overnight. I mean, this is who we have. We have a, literally an insane have literally an insane vaccine denier. They pulled it like 15%. That shows you how desperate we are for any other name. And everyone, like they should, is falling in line behind Biden. But the vacuum here is just too, the void here is too big. All right, second prediction. I think in the fullness of history, when we're writing about this time and this era, my general sense is that as someone who loves alcohol, someone who, I don't say I love it, but I like THC, I do not believe that drugs and substances, the majority of people are functioning when they use substances and can use alcohol to enhance

their lives. I've also come to realize there is no free lunch. And what I see in the kind of master of universe sphere or cohort is that they have talked themselves into believing that pretty substantial use of these new technology or these new drugs, that it is all upside. And I think we're going to find, you know, a hundred shades of Tony Hsieh start to emerge and the word we're going to start to hear more and more when talking about some of the behaviors that infect, and I'm not talking about any individual, I'm talking about the entire community, the word we're going to hear more and more of is ketamine. And I was in a situation a while ago in a Master of the Universe place where everyone was partying, and we went to a lounge, and I said, can I get everyone drinks? Or I said, can I get you a drink? And they're like, oh, no, we don't drink. And everyone around the table, we're talking about

a dozen people, men and women, all one thing in common, all very successful, all very influential, they were all on ketamine. And I don't think there's a free lunch here. I don't think you can use something, an external substance, and you would argue, well, that's when use becomes abuse. But I think you're going to find, I think when the biography of this cohort is written, I think a lot of this behavior and a lot of this weirdness, we're going to start to hear the word ketamine more and more. Interesting. It's going to be like Oxycontin or something like that for the rich.

Yeah. Interesting. We'll see. It's definitely too bad because there's some really good uses from other stuff, medical, in terms of medicine. A hundred percent. And that's what's irritating. I think there's some good uses of it recreationally in small doses. But what I find with a lot of people is that the world becomes smaller and smaller.

They justify substances as, oh, this is different. This is new technology. And I'm like, brother, there is no free lunch. Occasionally, there's a freer lunch. Edibles doesn't have the same hangover as alcohol. But if you are using these drugs on a regular basis and more and more, you're going to pay a price across relationships, paranoia, conspiracy, whatever it might be. There is no free lunch. This is a conversation I have with my kids a lot. I'm like, fine, use it, but just think about the implications. Be mindful. And it happens incrementally and you wake up and the people around you, especially if you're rich and powerful, will enable your use or at least not sit you down and tell you how much this is impacting your relationship with them. But I just can't, it just seems like it's

hit a tipping point. It has. It does. They feel mentally ill to me. Some of them, not all of them by any means, but a lot of them feel like, would you please just get therapy? And let me say my prediction, I think this book is going to sell a ton of books. And I think reviewers, if you read the reviews, are trying very hard not to say it's not a great book. It's just not. I love Walter personally, and I think he's very talented in many ways. But I think he pulled his punches here in a way. And I didn't have to do a Kara Swisher, slap him upside the head. him upside the head. But oh, for God's sake, you spent two years with this guy. What do you think would have been really fucking nice to hear from this guy? And I'm going to ask him that. And again, he could have come like, well, Kara, you're wrong. He's okay. Like, okay, explain to me why it's okay to be a dick to everyone. Explain to me why it's okay to make mistakes all the time and then get credit for the times you were, you know, anyway, I just, I wish he had an opportunity here given the close, the access. And again, you're right, access is a drug. I know it

myself being, I think a lot about my own reporting, punches I pull, there are different things on the Elon particularly. I just sleep with people. You just sleep with people. But it's a shame because he was there. And I would really like, Walter, this is going to be a question I'm sure you're going to hear this. I want to know what you actually think. And I know you actually think something. So I'm going to press you on it. And I'm going to give you that question in advance. So please, what do you actually think?

And I don't want qualifications. And he'll say, Cara, we should talk about this over a mint julep. Will you wear my full head of hair in my disarming southern drawl? He has fantastic hair. He's the most likable guy in the world. I have been to New Orleans with him. We've had lovely dinners. He's so charming and likable.

He is with his thing. I have so many good Walter Isaac stories. He turns up the southern when he wants to be super charming, which is a high-five charming. So likable. He really is. Anyway, I think it'll sell a lot. I think it's an opportunity missed here. And, you know, it's just an opportunity missed.

And I'm sorry. I'd like to really hear the actual. I'd like him to write this utterly, completely drunk on mint juleps is what I'd like to hear. It's like type any type type. Well, just a minute. That's what I would like to, I'd like the mint julep version of this. So Walter drink up before our interview. That'll be great. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. Another great show with you back.

I really did miss you. I had such a good time at the open with you. Wasn't that nice? Yeah, someone was like, are you really friends? I'm like, I think we might be at this point. I feel like maybe we are friends now. How do you like that? I know, it's a big deal.

What a thrill. I'm trying to get rid of friends. What a thrill. But I had a great time and I'm glad you're back. I'm having a really good time. Oh, I'm glad. We'll be back on Friday for more. There get rid of friends. What a thrill. But I had a great time, and I'm glad you're back. I'm having a really good time. Oh, God. Thanks for having me. We'll be back on Friday for more.

There's tons of news, so we'll have more to talk about. Read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertott engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Neil Severo, and Gaddy McBain. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. My

advice to any young person is not to ask yourself whether you're living under a bridge or if you've gotten fired. That's not the litmus test for substance abuse. The question is, would you just be a little less shitty? Would you be a little bit more kind to yourself and others if you just toned it down a bit? Do an assessment, do an audit of your addictions around, whatever it is, trans fats, sugars, marijuana, ketamine, porn, online shopping, codependence. We could all use an audit. Could you be a little kinder?

Could you be a little less shitty? Add a bunch of things, just dialing it back a bit.