Pivot - Is there a Trump without Twitter? A mini class on "dispersion", and a prediction about CNN

Episode Date: February 12, 2021

Kara and Scott talk about Twitter's fourth-quarter earnings and the decision to ban Trump's account for life. Scott gives a mini-class on the idea of "dispersion". In listener mail we get a question about whether Clubhouse is a threat to podcasting. In predictions, Scott sees a CNN being acquired. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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a lot of AI systems feel like they're designed for specific tasks performed by a select few. Well, Claude, by Anthropic, is AI for everyone. The latest model, Claude 3.5 Sonnet, offers groundbreaking intelligence at an everyday price. Claude Sonnet can generate code, help with writing, and reason through hard problems better than any model before. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And this is Scott Galloway. I've been cleared by my urologist. I'm going to be the backup quarterback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next season.

No, you aren't. Have you ever played football? Yes. As a matter of fact, anyone can try out. One of the wonderful things about UCLA athletics is anyone can try out for any sport. Yeah. So I've been cut from several sports at UCLA. And at football, you can go through the combine and then they give you notes, feedback,

which is really wonderful. And my notes after it was cleared. What's a combine? What's a, I'm sorry. Well, it's a series of drills that test your athletic ability footing to football. It's everything from the 40-yard dash to something they call, they do,

when I was there, you sat on your knees and you threw the ball as far as you could. Oh. Something called the shuttle run. Just a bunch of stuff that supposedly tests your athletic ability. Anyways, my feedback, no joke, was three words. Small, but slow.

There you go. That kind of sums up the dog. Small, but slow. Like an old Puerto Rican rescue hound. Stupid but ugly. That is not the slur. Stupid but ugly. Wow.

Wow. Small but slow. Small but slow. That's your new name. That's your new name. Small but slow. There you go. There you go.

Oh, I didn't think that was going to be a good story, but there it is. There it is. That's a good story. Wow. So, you had no athletic prowess in school ever? I was a varsity athlete at UCLA. I rode crew where all the failed athletes end up that are over six foot two. Okay.

And were you good at that? And by the way, got me a job in the fixed income department. Oh, sure. Those crew guys. Hold on. Hold on. Of Morgan Stanley with a 2.27 GPA to UCLA and the head of the department said anyone who can row crew gets an automatic

offer. He was an Oars person. So again, I think we call that white privilege, Kara. Oh my God. I think we call that white privilege. Jesus. Of course you haven't asked about my sporting history. What do you think I played? Guess. I want you to guess. Field hockey. Yeah. I got that? Second one. Yeah.

Two of them. There's two. Point guard on the basketball team? No. Coxswain and the Oars? No. What do rich people do? Did you play lacrosse? No, of course not.

I hate lacrosse. My kids play lacrosse. Polo? No polo. Tennis. Tennis. Oh, tennis. You play tennis.

Yeah. Nice sport. You can play it the rest of your life. Yes. I don't play it anymore. I played all the time. I went to tennis camp. We had a tennis court, everything.

But I no longer play. I was pretty good, but no longer. Tennis and field hockey. I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say you felt more at home on the field hockey field. And I say that in the best way. I say that in the best way. Are you making an anti-gay remark? Give me a fucking stick and let me go at it

hit a ball I'm going to hit everything but that ball I was a I don't know I forget halfback I don't remember

anyway it was fun and let me just tell you the coach is the only person I let call me Cara she said Cara get the ball

isn't that the only sport they play in? Skirts? Yeah, we had skirts. There was skirts. It was ridiculous. I just, I didn't play. It was not a long career.

Were you a good athlete? I was okay. I was one of those, okay. I was like, fine. I was, no one was like, oh God, don't give the ball to Kara. I was good. I was good, but not superb.

How's that? But that's the key to sports, is be good enough to play, but be bad enough to not have any delusions that you should do that as your career. Yeah. I lived, or I knew some world-class athletes at UCLA who went to the Seoul Olympics, and it was a bit of a curse because at the age of 28, they were calling me and asking me for help. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Very few, very few figure out a way to make a living in athletics. I like sports. I like sports. I don't do them a lot. I like my cali time. It's wonderful. It's just don't count on it to make a living in athletics. I like sports. I like sports. I don't do them a lot.

It's wonderful. It's just don't count on it to make a living, in my view. But anyways. Well, unless you're like some people. Does Dr. Swisher an athlete? He looks like he could have been a fullback at a Division II school. I'm trying to think. He must have played.

Who should we ask? Maybe one of his other siblings? I don't think we were big. Tennis. He was a good tennis player. He was a very good tennis player. So was my other brother. We were all good tennis players. But not, I don't think we were big. Tennis. He was a good tennis player. He was a very good tennis player. So was my other brother. We were all good tennis players.

But not, I don't remember. We'll have to ask him on the internet since you have a personal relationship with him. I like Dr. Swisher. Listen, we're going to, just so you know, I'm going to move on to actual things rather than our lives. TikTok's sale to Oracle has been shelved indefinitely.

I know that comes as a shock. That's a surprise. That's suspicious. President Biden is reviewing the security risks from Chinese tech companies, as he should, like TikTok's parent company, ByteDance. And that's that. That is that.

And by the way, China is doing a lot of looking at their, they just arrested someone else on corruption charges that I think the WeChat company, the company that owns WeChat. There's all this activity going. China's just putting those screws to a lot of their internet moguls. that I think the WeChat company, the company that owns WeChat, there's all this activity going. China's just putting those screws to a lot of their internet moguls. I don't know if you've noticed that.

We'll talk about that as a full thing as I do some research on the situation. You mean they're being smart when power corrupts and people start abusing their consumer base or trying to manipulate the banking system or depressing their teens. They say, you know,

we're going to put a stop to that. I hate to sound pro-Chinese, but on this one. It sounds like it's not. The way they deal with it is a little different than how we deal with it. Fair enough. Fair point. But TikTok. So what's going to happen to TikTok now?

It's not going to be sold necessarily. It's still going to be doing a deal with Walmart around the products that get sold on the site, which is okay. Sure. Look, this was an easy one, Karen. We called it. What's going to happen with TikTok? Absolutely nothing. Biden will use this to actually do something called policy, thoughtful policy, and he will use TikTok and everything from WeChat to Alipay

as leverage to say, if you want access to the biggest consumer market in the world, you have to give us access to the fastest growing consumer market in the world. And they will have thoughtful people, not the B-League, Bad News Bears, Peter Navarro, like Joey Bag of Donuts team over there negotiating trade agreements that consist of one thing. How do you make Donald Trump look good and let him build a 12-carat gold hotel over here? Yeah. It's an actual policy. But I think at the end of the day, we embrace competition. Competition is a fantastic thing for innovation and job growth.

And something tells me in a year to two years, we'll still be scrolling through TikTok videos. What do you think? I think so. I think you're exactly right. I think it's, you know, we've got to figure out how to deal with China as a power, as they have more popular stuff that moves into this country.

TikTok's really the first company that really did that, I think. And even though they talk about all the protections, there's an idea about putting the data somewhere. Right now, I think it's in Singapore, but really having a third-party company deal with the data, that's a possibility. You can see Microsoft doing something like that for a piece of it or something and it going public eventually.

I think that's really where it's headed. And probably in the US, they'll probably go public on the New York Stock Exchange or NASDAQ or whatever. But the whole thing was ridiculous. Peter Navarro literally dipped his beak in COVID. He sucks. In this, he sucks.

In everything, he sucks. Just literally made a mess of a situation that requires policy, really does, like serious policy. And I think everyone just was waiting out the clock and heaved a giant sigh of relief, and now we can actually talk about the serious issues around surveillance, et cetera, and more, all kinds of stuff. So, you know, it's just ridiculous.

The fact that they were able to do things like this and even let relatively credible people like Steve Mnuchin had to deal with it, although I'm not going to give him too much credit for anything because he was sitting there letting it happen. I think it's good. It's good. And we'll see where it goes.

But it definitely slowed that company down, which was, I think, the intent. Slowed TikTok down? Yeah. I think, the intent, which, you know, you have to- Slow TikTok down? Yeah, I think it got, you know, they got all that attention with all their employees.

They, you know, it's an innovative company and, you know, now everybody's sort of focused on Clubhouse at this point,

but it was, it had a lot of momentum and it slowed that momentum down. I don't know. I don't, it may have slowed it internally and we'll know,

maybe in six months we won't see the level of innovation because people have been distracted, but my sense is TikTok has got a ton of momentum it's interesting TikTok was developed to Twitter it was called Vine except in their infinite wisdom of strategic head up your assery they decided to kill it we will get to Twitter in a minute um yes but they you're right Twitter Twitter has a lot of this stuff was at Twitter the other thing uh Salesforce

is leaving behind a nine to five work day in a blog post they said after the pandemic, employees can create their own work weeks and only go to the office one to three days a week. That's kind of how I've operated my whole career. But what is this like? Everyone's sort of decided you don't need to go to the office. I think that's a giant, you don't need to go to the office kind of thing. But this is where I think the world is headed. And that is, we like to process information in zeros or ones. Either companies are going to go back to the old way or they're going to be all remote. And the reality is 98% of corporate America is going to develop a hybrid. And we know at a minimum people are going to be more comfortable with you saying, look, on Thursdays and Fridays, I don't have childcare or I need to be at home or I commute to NYU from Princeton, New Jersey, which some of our outstanding administrators do.

And they're going to say, okay, well, Wednesday and Friday, you can stay at home. But if you think of a 20 or 30 percent net demand destruction in the office, I mean, the unintended consequences here, not only around capital relocation, but unfortunately, I'm fascinated with second order effects. And I think that some of the second order effects are going to be really negative. And the most obvious one is the one we've already talked about. Office space. Well, that's the first order. The second order is that when dual income with kids, households decide to move further out of town,

or because the school is closed, someone needs to be at home, it's almost always the woman. And one of the most frightening statistics I have seen, and I keep repeating it because it's important, is that women's participation in the labor force has regressed 35 years. And I've always thought that the key to equality, the key to civil rights, the key to solving systemic racism comes down to one thing, money. Firms where there are women making just as much money in just as high positions, raking in just as many millions as men, do not have as many instances of harassment because it's about power. And my sense is if you take women back 30 years economically you're going to see an increase in sexual harassment you're going to see an increase in child poverty you're going to see all kinds of

bad things happen in addition what i tell young people don't work from home get to hq because i agree there's three people qualified to become the editor. There's three deputy editors who are qualified to become the editor or three directors qualified to become the VP. And the SVP or the managing editor that gets to make that decision will ultimately regress to relationships, who they trust. And the way you build relationships is a function of proximity. So before you collect dogs, before you collect kids, put on a dress, put on a suit or a pantsuit, and get to HQ. Interesting.

Get to the office. Although I have to say, let me just say, I have built lots of relationships just online with people, like strong relationships. So I think you're right. It does set women back 100%. But this idea of, hey, do what you want. It's like the, hey, do what you want vacations. Take it whatever you want.

Yeah, right. Nobody takes as much. That's exactly right. We're worried. We're going to talk about this more. This is a good topic, Scott. But first, we're going to go to the big story. Twitter says they will be banning Donald Trump

from the platform for life. He's banned for life, even if he runs for president again in 2024. During the company's fourth quarter earnings call, CEO Jack Dorsey said that we're a platform that is obviously much larger than any one topic or any one account in regards to the Trump ban. Meanwhile, the Indian government threatened to have Twitter employees jailed. Twitter blocked over 500 accounts criticizing the country's prime minister, but not enough

for the government, apparently. This week, Twitter's earnings report and company failed to beat user growth expectations. So talk to Twitter. There's a lot going on here. They obviously did a lot of hand-waving around the Donald Trump things, I guess, so it wouldn't focus on the earnings report. But, you know, I didn't think they were going to bring them back. I didn't think there was a ban that would be unbanned. But what do you think?

Disclosure, I'm a shareholder. Yes. So, look, Twitter needs to do three things to get to 100 bucks, right? Mm-hmm. They need to go to subscription. Right. They need to go vertical with content, and they need to have a full-time CEO. They announced a week ago, just a week ago, that they are getting serious about subscription. The stock is up 20% in the face of anemic,

kind of anemic user growth. Jim Cramer, who gets a lot of shit online, I feel better about myself because I've gotten so much shit on Twitter lately. And I just put out a tweet. Jim Cramer said he thinks Twitter is going to a hundred bucks. And my Twitter feed got flooded

with all these very negative things about Jim. I've always found Jim, he's an easy target. I've always found him a thoughtful, nice man. But anyways, he says, and he had an interesting take, Twitter moving to kind of starch its hat white, moving to more, I think the term he used was kindness or purity.

When Pinterest went kind, when Snap went kind, their stocks accelerated. I didn't make that observation, and his viewpoint is them kicking Trump off is a move towards becoming more kind or a gentler place. And there might be some truth to that. But here's the thing, they have used, they have, the laziest move ever was to let the rage

and engagement and short-term sugar high of these very controversial misinformation spread by, not primarily one account, but most distinctly one account. Attached to one account. And they never showed the backbone to kick them off. 1,449 days into its 1,460-day tenure, they kick them off. And what do you know? The stock is up dramatically.

It dipped. It went down 11% when they first did it because investors got worried. And now everyone's like, wow, even Twitter feels—I now feel like i need to shower a little less often on twitter right it's interesting i was talking to someone from a glad the gay and lesbian organization that looks at these things and i was asking about how they um uh sarah kate ellis how they deal with these companies because they're start they're doing the social they're going to do a grade like they did for hollywood companies and she said if i had to pick one they don't none of them get great grades, but Twitter at least is responsive. This thing that they did just changed

the equation for them with us. You know what I mean? It started to start a thing. They go, none of them are perfect. Assuming that this is not their business anymore is a good thing. What is their actual business? What is their better business, I think,

rather than being a hair on fire place where people scream at each other. It's not their best business. You know, it's just not like, as you said, if they bought CNN or they did subscription, you know, they missed so many turns. I mean, they missed Vine. There's so many turns they missed. They missed Clubhouse, really. They missed, so did Facebook, right?

Substack, Clubhouse, TikTok. Right. And they're coming to the realization that being a handmade to sedition is, it can be a good business model. Oh, the handmade to sedition. What does she care? But you have to be a handmade to sedition at scale, like Google or Facebook. Yeah. Like if you're, and they've also recognized that having any part in a Capitol Police officer being bludgeoned by a fire extinguisher is a bad business model.

Yeah. And so they've recognized, I think they're finally coming to the grips. It'll take them twice as long because their CEO is part-time, but they're coming to grips with the fact that they can't be the number three player in rage. It's not only bad for the Commonwealth, it's bad for shareholders. And any threat, think about this, if they just get to 10% of the revenues from subscription, the stock hits triple digits. All right.

And this is, I think, I mean, by the way, Twitter shares have doubled in the last 12 months. Yeah, yeah, you note that. I mean, I think they've got to really, because they do have, people are enjoying themselves on Twitter a little bit more. You still have Ted Cruz lobbing an idiot thing, although he was right about, he correctly quoted

Macbeth this week and other people jumped on him, which was really, and specifically Andrew Mitchell was inaccurate. But they're still going to have that sort of back and forth, but actually there's been a lot of really interesting and thoughtful things. It feels more interesting and thoughtful as a news consumption vehicle, especially like analysis and things

like that, and that's very helpful. The more news, actual good, not good news, but news that is, you're, that's very helpful. Like the more news, actual good, not good news, but news that is, you're able to debate in an interesting way or to get insights in, it's so useful as a medium. You know, as I told you, my son is using it a lot. He likes it for news. That's where he, you know, he reads, he follows certain people, he gets different points of view. It has a lot of utility in that regard. And I think that's a great thing. Question is, can Trump make a successful political comeback without the Twitter mega-home? Can you

imagine if you had Twitter this week during the impeachment hearings? Like, I'm so glad you can't hear from him, except for those stupid statements he releases, or his dumb lawyers. Everything, it's like George Costanza with that episode in Seinfeld, where every instinct he has, he does the opposite. Every instinct I have around Donald Trump, every prediction I've made about Donald Trump, the exact opposite has happened. I am totally incapable of understanding his supporters and him. So I'll pivot it back to you. What do you think?

I think it's going to have a hard time. I think it was his expression. I think it was his oxygen. And I think that combined with the rallies was something. Now, he could keep doing those, but I think people are tired of covering those, right? So, he's going to have to do a lot of rallying, like go and

do this sort of barnstorming tour, and he's old. Like, I'm sorry, he's four years older, he's four years, you know what I mean? And the act gets a little wearying after a while. And so, I think his favorite people go to see the same, play the same songs over and over again. But it gets a little like, what's next, you know, kind of thing.

And I think without Twitter to change things up, it's hard. I think it's really hard for him. And I think this stuff, even though he's not going to get convicted by the Senate, apparently, because the Republican senators are just ignoring reality. I think this stuff that they're doing, the Democrats are doing, are putting a real stain on him in a way that's just, you know, ugh, this guy. And I don't know if it'll stick, but it's certainly damning historically. It's damning historically to him. But the other thing, and I wonder, and this is his projection,

that, okay, they're no longer in power. They no longer have the office of the president, which basically kind of almost- Free pass. Yeah, is basically makes you immune from any serious legal prosecution and your family members. I wonder if they just gathered all of them in a room and at some point all that money buys you

some clear blue flame thinking legal counsel and someone sat him down and said, you know, Don, Don Jr., Ivanka, you guys would just be better off keeping a low profile for a while. You are, you need to stay out of the line of vision of every attorney general in the nation for a little bit. Just go low for a little bit. And I don't know if they're capable of that, but I would imagine at some point somebody with a decent legal mind and a decent head for strategy. I think Pat Cipollone is the one that was like, you need to do this, this. You need to not do this, this, and this.

And it probably saved him in that regard because he could have done even worse. I think one of the things that's come through from watching these hearings is that how close this was to actual serious death. You mean the vice president being hurt? Everything, all of them. Or Nancy Pelosi being hurt? Any of them. Mitt Romney just turned around because one cop told him, what if that cop hadn't been running there when Mitt Romney was there?

He would have run right into the crowd. You think they would have not done something dangerous, they would have tried to attack him? I mean, it's just, I don't know. It just was like, that's the closeness of how close, what a close call all those people on Capitol Hill had. And how vulnerable. I'm embarrassed by you bringing up Mitt Romney.

And I'm trying to, you know, we're having Adam Grant on Monday. And he's written a new book. And he has this thing on, okay, flip-flopping is when you back off your positions because the mob comes from you. But evolving is recognizing other people's points and changing your view because you're generally concerned about learning. And that's what I'm trying to do through this whole GameStop thing, because I realized I made some stereotypes that weren't accurate. But one of the things I look back on is I physically didn't like Mitt Romney when he was running against Obama because

of the bubble I'm in. I thought he's not a decent person, not stupid, but I just really didn't like him and really didn't like what he stood for. And what I've recognized is that I don't agree with Senator Romney on a lot of issues, but I think he's a good man. I think he really does care about the country. I think he has backbone. I think he demonstrates courage. I like the fact that he's a family man. I think we are better having Senator Romney in the Capitol. And I'm kind of embarrassed that I took part in this partisanship

and I immediately leapt to the filter bubble I'm in. He also made a lot of political mistakes of buying dirt. Well, who doesn't? I know, but I'm saying he came off as, I don't think he was the ideal presidential candidate. In any case, that's very nice that you learned. You learned. So did that Louisiana senator. Unlike the Green Mile, every great story is about a white man pursuing redemption and achieving it and achieving it

see i'm trying to say that subtly to you right now but explicitly yes i your feels that's the story i have overcome my flaws applaud me applaud me all right good for me i was trying to be polite there but thank you at my heart and a very decent man forgive me for my flaw how does it affect scott let's talk about these things. Hey, Kara. Kara, I just got to say, there are a series of lies I tell myself, and if you were a better friend,

you would support those lies. I will not. You would support those lies. All right. Let's go to a quick break. When we come back, we'll have a mini lesson. I'm going to let Scott go on. I can't believe I'm saying this.

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Okay, Scott, we're back. We're going to change things up a bit. Instead of talking about a news story, there's plenty of news stories. We're going to go wonky into a concept because we want to teach people things. We're teachers, not me. You talk about the idea of dispersion in your book. Let's do a mini class. I want you to explain the trend and you have to let me interject while you're explaining, Professor Galloway. But talk about, explain this trend and what does it mean for young people listening to how to invest their time and money. Dispersion by Scott Galloway.

Well, first off, if you want to interject, you're going to have to get comfortable with interrupting me, Kara. I know that's difficult for you, but you're going to have to see if you can do that. Anyways, look, there have been three major shifts in our economy over the last 50 years that have created unprecedented wealth. And one of your keys as a young person, if you get to waves that are perfectly formed and with an offshore breeze, those make great surfers. If you get to fresh powder, you can commit yourself a great skier. You want to get to where the best waves are and where the best snow is. And in the last 50 years, the best three waves have been first globalization, people with international skills that understood the arbitrage between a comparative advantage and globalization, created massive shareholder value.

The next was digitization. That's how I developed economic security. I rode the e-commerce wave. I started an e-commerce company, and then I advised other companies on their e-commerce strategy, and then I held Amazon stock for 15 years. Anyways, the third big wave is upon us, and it's dispersion.

And loosely speaking, it's taking the source or the producer or supplier of value and figuring out a way to get to the end stakeholder by skipping points of distribution. The most obvious example is Wonder Woman 1984 shows up on your TV screen and it skips movie theaters and it adds core value to the end consumer. We're gonna see dispersion

and trillions of dollars of reallocation. And what I coach young people to do is get in front of the dispersion wave and specifically, specifically, in order, the third biggest wave of dispersion will be the dispersion away from campuses to deliver education using technology and give people some sort of vocational skills

without using artificial constraints on supply to create a transfer of wealth of $1.5 trillion to administrators and endowments and universities. There's going to be a dispersion education. The second biggest will be the dispersion of headquarters. And that is the $12 trillion asset class. It is commercial real estate, 20% to 30% net destruction. That'll move to the residential asset class. That means home prices, lumber prices, sub-zero refrigerators, cold storage, Sonos, restoration hardware, anything with the term remote in it, working out from home. The home is about to take two, our residential ecosystem is about to take $2 to $3 trillion out of the dispersion from headquarters.

And the biggest dispersion, the biggest opportunity you want to put yourself in the midst of is the dispersion of healthcare. you want to put yourself in the midst of is the dispersion of healthcare. 17% of GDP, $3 to $4 trillion, 99% of the people who've contracted and endured and developed antibodies for novel coronavirus will have never entered a doctor's office, much less a hospital.

That means insurance companies, that means medical centers that host doctor's offices are going to lose capital and it's going to go to phones, smart speakers. And if you really wanna become a trillionaire, you gotta build a time machine. Netflix is a time machine.

If your kids are only allowed to watch Netflix, they save 11 days in commercial. If you only shop at Amazon and use Amazon grocery, you save nine days in a grocery store. And if we can get primary healthcare out of the doctor's office and out of the commute to a mother whose child has diabetes, we can save half of that 12 weeks a year

she spends managing that kid's diabetes. Not only is it an economic opportunity, the real cost is in time. We can begin offering people primary healthcare, distributing it out to the 90% of the population that has a smartphone and access to broadband. And we can begin going off our heels and onto our toes and treat medicine and healthcare as offense and health-driven as opposed to disease-driven and people end up in the emergency room. Three key areas of dispersion that will have tremendous, tremendous shareholder value. Headquarters, education, and healthcare. The great dispersion is will have tremendous, tremendous shareholder value. Headquarters, education,

and healthcare. The great dispersion is coming our way. Dispersion is a fascinating word. Isn't this just time savings, time reallocation, that people are moving their time instead of it going, it's moving, physically we're moving elsewhere, you're talking about, which is dispersion. And then time is shifting in terms of how we use it and the waste of time. One of the things when I started doing, not working in the office, is I actually said that to my boss, it's a waste of my time to come down here. It's a waste of my time. I don't want to talk to you. And they were like, you're so rude. I'm like, well, it's a waste of my time. I can get more done and then do whatever I want to do. like, well, it's a waste of my time.

It's a way, like I can get more done and then do whatever I want to do. How do you build communities then if you're doing, let's start with the office because I think that's the idea. How do you build a community without having, because we don't have, church is not as popular as it was. That's, you know, although it is popular with some people.

A lot of community-based things aren't as popular as they were. How do you create, and the office had become a place where people gather and interact. That is exactly the right question. You should consider a career in podcasting or interviewing people. That is exactly the right question, because there is a very ugly downside to this. Yeah.

And that is the cousin to- I always like to find ugly. The cousin to dispersion is segregation. And when we would draw to our homes, when we no longer interact with people from different income classes and different ethnicities at the mall or at the movie theater, when we no longer see the homeless vet at the off-ramp and the on-ramp on our way to work, when we no longer interact with people from different economic classes at school or university. There's studies in Britain showing that when different demographic groups grow and you don't interact with them, when that

nice Polish family moves in next door to you, you find out, you know what? They wake up in the morning, they love their kids, they work hard, and you appreciate each other. When different ethnic groups grow and you don't interact with them, you begin to resent them. And the problem is we are withdrawing to our own little bubbles even more so. We're not only dispersing in terms of our media consumption, we're dispersing geographically and physically. And there's a very dangerous, we're basically segregating. Yeah. And segregation simply means one thing, it means a lack of empathy. And we are going to have to force,

and what you're saying about church, as nations become wealthier, the church attendance and reliance on a super being goes down, and unfortunately we have filled that need for mysticism and answer with our new Jesus Christ, which are these tech innovators, which primarily are sociopaths. That's not my religion, but go ahead.

Anyways, but you're absolutely right. So we are going to have to figure out a way, a national service. We're going to have to figure out a way such that we begin bumping off of each other and seeing each other as Americans first. Public squares are now digital squares, right? That's a great question. Thank you. I think it's national service.

This is why you and I have this thing going on. You see, I'm trying to bring out your smarter ways. But like, so national service. I've always thought national service was something everybody should do. That's why I wanted to go in the military. I thought there was a way, although physical military is not as important as digital. You know, look at all these cyber attacks. Like, that's where it's all happening, essentially, where people will be looking at screens and dealing with this.

So one of the things that you talked about, education, is the same way. Although I think colleges are sort of a lot of rich kids in lots of places. You know what I mean? It's like gatherings of essentially rich kids in too many ways going forward. But this idea of artificial constraints on supply, this is a really interesting one, which is colleges, right? That only so many people can get in.

Stanford's increased its endowment from $3 billion to $30 billion in 30 years. They have tripled the number of applicants. And do you know

how much they've increased their freshman class? None. Zero. They think of themselves as luxury brands. They're like,

we're not public servants. We're our mess. The head of Harvard admissions says, we could have doubled our freshman class with no sacrifice in quality. And then the correct question is, well, boss, with an endowment, the GDP of El Salvador, why the fuck aren't you? I mean, we have totally lost the script because we're all drunk on luxury. We all think about, we all brag that we turn away 92% of applicants. For God's sake.

They're doing that again. I just saw something like, oh, we see our applicants going up now that everybody wants to get back. It's skyrocketed. And it's actually because of a weird reason because we're no longer

demanding the SAT. All these kids who bombed the SAT thought I might as well not apply to Harvard. Now that they don't have to take the SAT, they're like,

I'll throw in an application to Harvard. The consolidation that's taken place across every industry is happening in education. And that is the top 50. So the Harvard's of the world will be where everybody is the top 50 getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

And so bottom line, write them off. What you need to do, what you need to do is go to the gangsters, the upward lubricants of this great society, and that is our public and our state schools, University of California, University of Texas, Michigan, Florida. They'll be constrained because states are going to have to pay for the COVID. So it's, you know, I think that's one of the things

and that's one of the places they tend to cut. One of the things you talked about was cutting staff and every, you know, cutting like that. You don't have to have all these tenured professors and stuff like that. Let me move on to something else though. Residential ecosystem that is going to be, what does that mean for people looking for jobs?

Like focus in on the house stuff and not commercial real estate? What happens to the commercial real estate business? There's so many employed in that and there's so much wealth, you know, most of the rich people in most cities are commercial real estate people. It gets crushed because most of these things, I mean, they're only levered up about 50%, but a lot of buildings, if they have a, the real, my office space in Soho, I made the rookie move as an entrepreneur, and I leased 8,000 feet at like 75 bucks a square foot. I cut a check for a million dollars to get out of it when COVID hit. They're trying to release it at 45 bucks a foot, and there's no takers. You're going to see, you know who also, speaking of a pivot on my part, Retail.

You know who's gonna do okay is WeWork. I think WeWork's gonna go public in a SPAC and actually perform quite well, because what's gonna happen is small companies are gonna say, we need to get everybody together. We need them to have more socializing. Young people wanna get together at work. So we need to make the office a really nice,

interesting social place, even if it's only one or two days a week. Right. But you are gonna see anything in the commercial, I don't care if it's only one or two days a week. Right. But you are going to see anything in the commercial. I don't care if it's a chopped salad restaurant that serves Midtown, or it's the people who sell those fluorescent light bulbs for workspaces, or people who sell those coffee machines and workplaces. Anything linked to headquarters, get out of.

Anything linked to residential or remote, get into. Although that's going to be dispersed. Speaking of dispersion, I just talked to someone who I thought was in New York and they went for a month and a half out to New Mexico. That's going to change. I know, they'll come back. The death of cities has been greatly exaggerated.

Yeah, it was interesting. Everyone looks at San Francisco and they're like, San Francisco is expensive but bad. Fine, go short San Francisco. Young people, the most talented people in the world want to be in cities. Yeah. And it's – I'm fascinated by that idea because I was thinking, why didn't I go to New Mexico?

What am I doing sitting here? I actually have a more complex life. But it was an interesting thing. Like, how do you come back? And then how do you build those communities with people around schools? That's another thing. Like, if you're just, everyone's dispersed. Like, I'm going to New York this weekend and just driving up, staying somewhere and not seeing anybody.

I'm just going to go see my son. Kara, what happened to you? I moved to Albuquerque. I'm coaching field hockey. Call me Kara. Call me Kara. I'm not moving to Albuquerque. But it was interesting.

I was like, all their, you know, Amanda was going to see her friends, but they're all somewhere else. Like, how do you, they're all somewhere else. They'll all come back. They'll all presumably come back. But it was really interesting. It's like once things go to the winds, they go to the winds. You know, we don't want to disperse. You know where we should have spent a disproportionate amount of this relief package instead of propping up the wealthiest cohort in America, small business and fucking Delta Airlines.

My guess is school. We should have done anything we could to maintain the communities of K through 12. I think we look back on this and we think, how could we have taken some of that $3 trillion in stimulus and reduced mental health, reduced strain on working mothers would have been to allocate the requisite resources to ensure that teachers, parents felt comfortable figuring out a way to get K through 12, keep K through 12 schools open. The dispersion of teaching to mostly mothers in the household and taking kids, young kids out of that socialization

has created real lasting damage. That was a big mistake. We should have figured out a way to keep K through 12 open. Agreed. All right. This is fascinating. Scott, I really like this lesson. I learned a lot. This is really exciting. I like it. I think we have to go back and have another concept, but everybody, dispersion is happening. Dispersion. We're going to talk about coalescing next time. You know what we need more of? What? We need more dispersion of pain to wealthy people.

Yeah. If Amazon, I'm telling you, Karen. I always like to do that. If Amazon stock had gone down 70%, not up 70%, the Amazon van that's going to be in my driveway later today would pop out and vaccinate everyone in my household. Yep. The rich, it's been stop, stop. It hurts so bad. Israel, NASDAQ's down in 2020, or they're tasked on 25. And what do you know? They're vaccinating people at seven times the rate. If rich people had lost money during this pandemic, we would have made the response in Singapore and South Korea and Taiwan look like amateur hour.

Agreed. Although, I think we're just, we've got so many crazies, like with the masks. They're doing double masks now. And I'm like, we couldn't get them to put on the first one. Like, how are we going to get them to put on the first one? And then I had someone say, why didn't we know this? I'm like, it's't get them to put on the first one. Like, how are we going to get them to put on the first one? And then I had someone's like, why didn't we know this? I'm like, it's called science. We find things out and then we adjust. I was like, do you ever do that in your life? And then I realized they didn't. Anyway, moving on.

This is fascinating. Thank you, Professor Galloway. Let's take a listener mail question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hey, Karen Scott, longtime-time listener of the show. I love what you all are doing. So my question really is about the future of podcasting and media to some extent. So I've been on Clubhouse now for a few weeks, and the engagement levels there are just incredible. I'm actually hosting a group of people to talk about the Pivot podcast later on today. I'll let you know how it goes.

But the real question is, is this kind of medium, this idea of social audio, is it an existential threat to podcasts? Or is it something that becomes additive where you can actually extend the show to platforms like that? I'd be curious to hear you all's opinion on it and maybe even a deeper analysis on what this new social audio space and where it's going. Thank you. Let's let the godmother of podcasting, podcaster of the year, according to some, to every media outlet to answer this. That's me. Here's the deal. I think everybody thinks they're a star. It's the woman with the stick and the skirt. I'm sorry, go ahead. Everybody thinks they're a star. And I like these social media audio sites,

and the way I focus on them is the community aspect. I think this idea of everyone doing their own little show is fine, but doing shows is a marathon, my friends. I hate to say that, but there was a point when podcasting, I had been doing hundreds of them for years, and then everyone and their mother decided they could do an interview podcast, they could do this, and then they fell off. It's just this one thing that takes, it's a marathon, and you got to keep doing it, you get better and better at it. These things on these sites, people hosting, it's a nice feeling

of power that you get to run something and talk about what you're interested in. But it takes forever and people start to fall off, You've got to keep people interested. So that's one of the things that I think, that's not where the focus of this thing should be. This thing should be on conversations that groups that never can get together, just like the original AOL conversation groups were in text. That's what this is. I remember those, the chat rooms. Yeah, the chat rooms. It's like, this is not a new fresh idea. It's just audio applied to it. And audio adds a really interesting element to it, for sure.

But it also adds, like, fatuous poppin' J's going on and on. Like, and that's an issue. Like, you're at a bar and someone won't shut up, essentially. And so I do think where the real power of this lies— That would be me. That would be me. It's not creating these social media stars, clubhouse stars that are going to, like— Because where's the—first of all, where's the monetization of those?

And there can be, there will be a few stars on this thing, just like it is on all these other things. But the most interesting part are these community groups where people talk about interesting things and you can drop in and listen to interesting conversations. Conversations, not podcasts, essentially. And so I think it's interesting, but where the focus is right now is on, oh, Elon was on it. Oh, Serena Williams on it. They're not going to keep going. They're not going to keep doing it. They don't want to interact with

their fans that much unless they're paid. Just like cameos are much better kind of, I understand that trade very easily. So I think it's an interesting way, and I think everyone's getting into it. Facebook is reportedly, of course, making them better because they don't have a new idea. Others are moving into the space. Twitter should be moving in here. And so I think it's, conversations are always interesting to me, and that's where I see it. Scott? Yeah, so it is difficult for me to

objectively evaluate. First, let me start off by saying I am hearing a lot about Clubhouse. That happens, right? Wasn't it trending? I'm just hearing a lot about it. But from influential people and they generally seem interested in it. Why not? I have such a negative gut reaction to it just personally personally, because I started, right when it started, I started getting all these emails saying that this guy is obsessed with you and is constantly criticizing you on Clubhouse. Here's an invitation to come on

and get back in the space and defend yourself. And I thought, that's just not why I wanna be on platforms. Yeah. You know, and it just left such a bad taste in my mouth. And it was this kind of usual cabal of Silicon Valley guys that I know, and I just want nothing to do with them. So I personally just can't do it. I have this negative gag reflex around this concept. But having said that, a couple of things, I'm hearing a ton about it. And two, there's something about audio that creates a level of intimacy. When you're watching TV,

you're focused on the set. Like Shonda Rhimes says, okay, the dialogue's important. The sounds they're making are important. But if I can create a visual stimulation that just arouses all sorts of sensors, that's how I'm going to add value and it distracts me audio. When you don't have visuals and you think about the conversation, the voice, the words are saying, it establishes a level of intimacy and a focus on the concepts and a focus on the IP they're actually trying to get across. The friction of a dialogue, that friction can be a wonderful thing or that synergy, whatever you want to call it. When people come up to me, if someone on the street high fives me and says, dude, love, Prof G, love you. I know that person has seen a video.

If someone comes up to me and like grabs my hand and looks at me like, you know, they say, you really moved me. I know they read something I wrote. And if someone comes up to me and starts speaking to me as if they know me, I know it's from the pod. Pod, yeah. Because you establish a level. Agreed. So audio, it's interesting. There's been so little investment in audio because everyone looked at audio as radio. And so they sort of, it's been underinvested and now it's finally

getting the investment that it warrants. What you're going to see though is a lot of these things, I think probably including Clubhouse and, as we're seeing now with some of the discussions we've been having, are going to incur this incredible ARB, where if I can get an hour of someone's day twice a week at an NPS score of 60 or 70, and then use it as a means to sell more towels, more handsets, or a subscription to a streaming video or audio service, then these things become worth much more. So it's not what you're getting with audio

and the value of these things is not in their cash flows. It's in their NPS and their command of the attention graph. Agreed. Let me interject. One of the things that I was thinking, sort of the same thing with Substack, what would it take to get me on there? Like stuff like that.

You don't need me. And by the way, new stars are going to be created and that's great. We love that. But it also degenerates into dudes, like the podcast where dudes talk to each other and some of them work and most of them don't. And that's really where you are.

And so I think it will degenerate into what it always degenerates into, which is, let me read, I'm going to read my stream on this about Clubhouse that I put up, because Charlie Wurzel said he wasn't on it and he doesn't understand it, right? And I said, he doesn't know why he should do it.

And I said, maybe, Charlie Wurzel, you don't want to paint a rich VC's fence by giving up your attention and analysis gratis. Reminds me of when Facebook was bugging everyone to do Facebook Live. All I could reply was, what's the actual benefit to anybody but Facebook? It's certainly good for

those who need or want to make a splash or as a place for new voices to emerge. The real benefit of the service to users in my humble opinion is that the non-famous for Silicon Valley groups that are creative and additive to life and work in some way, but the planoply of achingly dull interviews

with famed dudes is fine. Being in the same room, even virtual, is exciting, like being near a celeb at a cocktail party, and you don't care a lot that it is a retread of remarks or just PR, but it'll get tired, like those endless Silicon Valley parties. This sounds like a column, except it feels small compared to important issues

like climate change, pandemic recovery, and seismic shifts in our politics. But I get that people want to talk in a safe space and that works for them. If they keep focusing on their Silicon Valley-ness, who the fuck cares? I think if they get more creative and the most interesting stuff, just as on Twitter, is going in the areas with people of color talking. That's what's building this thing, a lot of these discussions. And I think they'll ignore it for Elon's on here, Mark Zuckerberg's on here. And that's not where it's going to be powerful. And it's also a little bit dangerous, or not dangerous. So for example, they had the CEO of Robinhood on. And there was a conspiracy theory that the CEO of Robinhood was coordinating

with Citadel to screw over a younger generation. That's not true. They just got killed in a liquidity crisis. Anyways, I think, and as I've said before, I think Robinhood is a menace. But they have the CEO on interviewed by Elon Musk. And I listened to bits of it that were circulated on the web. And the reality is you got a lot more from the interview of the CEO of Robinhood when Andrew Ross Sorkin did it.

Because Andrew Ross Sorkin, it's like Andrew Ross Sorkin, as far as I know, does not do a great job of landing two projectiles concurrently on two barges, nor does Elon Musk do a great job of interviewing the CEO of Robinhood. And it's all about, let's just find this kind of Silicon Valley celebrity thing.

But the interview was lousy. I mean, there's a reason that there's a reason we have journalists and people who interview other people. So, but I got, you know, let me be clear. I can't get over how much I'm hearing about Clubhouse. If I were Andreessen Horowitz, I'd figure out a way to monetize that buzz and sell it now. Because I agree with you. I think that's going to be- Remember Peach and Oi? They were all like, I got a million of those.

So the question is, can they make it substantive in a way? And can they make it safe, by the way? Like lots of crazies are going to flood onto this platform and they're going to have like, let's have the, you know, the white supremacy hour. How do you keep that out? How do you, and that's difficult. And all the bullshit with like the ugliness between New York Times journalists and some Silicon Valley types.

Who cares? It's just like, do we need another platform with that shit? Yeah. Do we need another platform spewing digital exhaust in the form of rage and toxicity? And I'm sure that's not what it's all about. I hope they implement safety standards. But that's kind of the stuff that makes the news.

Yeah, and that's ridiculous. It's either celebrity or anger. Its power is elsewhere. Its power is elsewhere. If they do it right, it could be great. They should sell it because everyone's going to get into it. But if they don't, it's going to be one of those, oh, remember Clubhouse?

So I think that's the thing I would sell right away to Facebook I will give them this they're smart they're talking about moving to subscription

I think that's really smart yep yep we'll see how it goes they have certainly created buzz by the way are we going on we're not going on Clubhouse

I don't see a plus yet if they could show me a plus I'm happy to otherwise no thank you I don't feel like arguing with Silicon Valley dudes about anything. All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for predictions. The Capital Ideas Podcast now features a series hosted by Capital Group CEO, Mike Gitlin. Through the words and experiences of investment professionals, you'll discover what differentiates their investment approach, what learnings have shifted their career trajectories, and how do they find their next great idea. Invest 30 minutes in an episode today. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees

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Okay, Scott, prediction time. Let's go. Okay, so the best way to make the future or predict the future is to make it happen. I'm a shareholder on Twitter, and I've been advocating for this. And people say it's a ridiculous idea, but I think it's so obvious. I think Twitter should and will acquire CNN. I think Twitter- I like this, you keep saying this. This is, go ahead.

Well, first off, the moons have all lined up here. AT&T took on too much debt acquiring Time Warner and DirecTV. They need to shed assets. They need to shed assets. They need to raise cash. The best valuation in the M&A world is always one situation, and that is a corporate parent looking to orphan a failed acquisition. So the price that CNN will get will be great for the bidder.

CNN does about a billion and EBITDA supposedly they're going to get somewhere between six and nine billion. It is very difficult to shop a company like CNN without word getting out. Word has gotten out. CNN is on the block. CNN can be purchased right now. Can I ask you a pushback question? Do you think Jason has talked about doing a subscription news service using CNN as the main brand? He seemed rather excited about the idea. Do you think they want to give it up for that? And if they could do something interesting with it? This is Jason Kylar, who's now running. I think Jason has made some bold moves.

I think AT&T's move around the Warner films going dispersing straight to your TV with HBO Max. Yeah, that's settled down, hasn't it? Gangster smart move. I don't think, to be blunt, I don't think Jason's in charge. I think John Stankey is going to get together with the CFO, run a quiet process, and if they can get $7 billion or more for CNN, it's gone. Okay, interesting. I don't know. Well, I don't know either. I thought the idea of leaning into CNN could be really, truly,

with Jeff leaving in December. Like, what is it then? It's a subscription news service that's valuable is an interesting idea. The problem is AT&T, okay, so what do you have here? CNN is worth seven, eight, maybe $10 billion to AT&T. It's worth 20 billion to Twitter because Twitter right now is a $60 billion market cap.

Say they pick it up for seven. We're talking about a 12% or 13% dilution. And then all of a sudden, Twitter has the heft and the IP to become the dominant circulatory system for real-time news globally. They start putting that amazing content of Michael Smirconish, Christiane Amanpour, and, of course, the most trusted journalist in the world right now. The most trusted journalist in the world right now, who is it, Cara? Anderson Cooper. You're number two. You're number two. It's Anderson Cooper. You figure out product innovation. You use that as the anchor to start charging subscription. You go vertical. By the way, when did Spotify and Netflix stock absolutely begin their tear up? When they went vertical

around Joe Rogan and House of Cards. I'm coming around to your idea here. I just want to know what the reaction is from the media people. Like what? Like Twitter running? Who runs it? They've got to get someone really fantastic. Well, I think CNN, my sense of CNN, has a lot of outstanding management.

I think Zucker's been a decent steward. You know, I know who I would want running it, but no one's, I'm not even going to say it because I'll just get mauled on Twitter. If Twitter, think about this. You're so scared of Twitter. Think about it. I'm like a dog that's been hit by a car and then it backed up and ran over me.

Suck it up, sister. Get in there. Get in the fight. I need a stick and a skirt. This is like a Rocky movie. I need a stick and a skirt. I'd throw water in your face. I'd cut your eye and I'd toss you right back in.

That's what I would do. I need. Get back in there, Rocky. I need a stick and a skirt. Okay, whatever. You can reach me in Albuquerque. Anyways, but think about this. What an incredible risk. They take a 12% dilution and they own CNN and they have vertical content. They absolutely cement their position as the world's newsleader. They can use that to create all sorts of subscription services around verticals and news, politics, finance. They get amazing talent. Their stock, they pay for this acquisition within 60

days of the acquisition. This is like Amazon announcing they're buying Whole Foods, and within 48 hours, it's already paid for. This makes so much sense. You have a corporate parent. Is there any other buyer? Because we got to get going, but was there any other buyer? Of CNN? Yeah. Oh, gosh.

I think there's a bunch of them, including Comcast. Comcast. You could see. They're not, that'd run into trouble. I don't know. I mean, this sounds crazy, and I don't know because of antitrust, but I actually think Apple would be an interesting buyer, CNN.

They have the money and to just say, no, we're putting it on Apple TV Plus, you're our news group and it's going behind a paywall. Yeah. I think there's actually quite a few potential. CNN is a great bargain. It's an incredible value right now. Investment banker, Scott Galloway

is offering up CNN to the people. Why don't we buy it, Scott? You know, there's cra incredible value right now. Investment banker, Scott Galloway is offering up CNN to the people. Why don't we buy it, Scott? You know, there's crazier things are happening. I've been contacted by some SPAC. I'm not joking. I've been contacted by some SPACs in the media space. They're getting calls from SPACs. AT&T, the problem is it's a pretty big buy for SPAC. Bill Ackman. Karen and Scott want to run CNN. Give it to us. No, I think our guy's Dan Loeb. I like him. He's salty. Let's do Dan Loeb. He's salty.

What a disaster that would be in a kind of a great way. We'd just be like New York Post fodder for years. It would be like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I like it. I like it. I like it.

I volunteered to be head of the internet for the Biden administration. You know who else is going to buy CNN and it would be great? Bloomberg. Oh, yeah. That's another, yeah, sure. Put it on the terminal. Sure. I mean, unfortunately,

unfortunately, the bad thing here is that we're taking all of what I call, I mean, CNN is, is got its own partisanship and has its own bubble and has its own anger factor, but they do things like fact-checking. They have responsible journalists.

And the problem is almost all of that stuff, fact-checking, responsible journalism is moving behind a the problem is almost all of that stuff, fact-checking, responsible journalism, is moving behind a wall. And all the stuff that is going to be consumed by people who don't have the money to pay for these things is going to be the crazy town shit. Very bad. It's going to be Jeanette Pirro or whatever her name is.

Well, you know what? They're getting sued. They're acting like it's not a big deal. Those lawsuits are a big deal for Fox. Supposedly, if you listen to legal scholars, those lawsuits have real teeth. They do. And that had even gotten to their COVID shit that they pulled. You know what I mean? Like, this is going to, I don't know.

I think I'd be worried if I was over there. I was Rupert Murdoch a little bit. I know he's gotten out a lot of scraps, but this one's a scrap. They really allowed that to go on. I don't think he's going to start worrying right now. I think that guy has had such bigger reasons to worry. And it's a scrap. They really allowed that to go on. I don't think he's going to start worrying right now. I think that guy has had such bigger reasons to worry. And it's just amazing. I think Rupert Murdoch,

I think the most amazing thing about Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg is not what they've accomplished. It's not their incredible blue flame genius. I think those guys sleep really well every night. I think they sleep really well every night. I think they're like, oh, you know, people being pulled out of cars and hanged in India, misinformation that threatens the

democracy of the greatest experiment ever, you know? I think they just go straight into REM. I don't think, I'm a fucking wreck when people insult me on Twitter. I know, you are. These guys. Get back in there, Scott. I'm a little bit more like that. I'm like, yeah, whatever, come at me. Anyway. You mean a sociopath? Yes, exactly. All right, Scott. Thank you a little bit more like that. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Come at me. Anyway. You mean a sociopath? Yes, exactly.

All right, Scott. Thank you. That was a really good prediction. I'm fascinated by this prediction. Thank you so much for it. And thank you for your teaching. It's really, you're a very good teacher. We forget that aspect of you.

I appreciate you saying that. I appreciate you saying that. But nonetheless, get back onto Twitter and start screaming at people. All right. Read us out. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis, our sound engineer, who doesn't get the credit he deserves, is Ernie Indretot.

Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you've subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts. If you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for a breakdown

of all things tech and business, CNN and Twitter, Twitter and CNN. The future isn't what happens to us. The future is what we make of it. Oh, my God. Yoda. Thank you, Captain Kirk. Thank you, Captain Kirk. And with that, we're out. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees. And it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you,

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