Pivot - Kara's Washington Post Bid, Trump's TikTok Plans, and Tesla's Sales Drop

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

As 2025 gets underway, Kara and Scott discuss Donald Trump's latest moves to stop the TikTok ban, net neutrality struck down again, and Meta's big staffing change ahead of inauguration. Then, Tesla's annual sales numbers fall for the first time in over a decade. But do investors even care, given Elon's bromance with Trump? Plus, Kara talks about assembling a group to make a bid for The Washington Post, and why she believes a fresh approach to the business is needed. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on Bluesky at @pivotpod.bsky.social Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's sexism. When I'm late, it's a crime against humanity. When you're late, it's because you're so important. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. It's 2025. I'm Scott Galloway. How are you, Kara?

Good. We're back. We're both in New York and we're not together. You're with your other side piece, Jess Tarloff down at Vox. Younger. I'm up at a hotel. Younger, more beautiful, more witty, and yet not me as usual because I'm the one you always come back to. That is why, Scott, today,

I was searching and searching for a song that we could begin our 2025 year with or yet another year for this. This is going to be so bad. Do you have the worst taste in music? I'm literally cringing before I hear this. And I picked this just for you. Cue the tape. What is this feeling so sudden and new?

I felt the moment I left this TV. Oh no, really? My pulse is rushing. My head is really. Well, my face is flushing. What is this feeling, the fervent of the flame? Does it have a name? Yes.

Loathing an adult terribly. Okay, okay, I get it. I think it should be the intro music for that, to catch a Predator series. I love that song. I think it should be the intro music for that to catch a Predator series. That's good. I love that song. That song has become a viral hit online by the way. Everybody's copying that dance with the books.

It might be viral. It's so good. It's such a nice song. I feel like first we start off in M&E's, we're M&E's and then we become like this, and then we become a joint togetherness and we sing together. I just feel it's perfect. It's a perfect theme.

It's loathing that becomes love. That is what we are. That is what I'm saying. I got to go see Wicked. Everyone says it's great. You want to go tonight? You and I can go. I'd say yes, but I don't want to. Okay. I tried to think of an excuse. We could go. Listen, here's what an idea is.

Listen, we go to Bond Street, we get really drunk, we go see Wicked. What do you think? You're halfway there. I'll do half of that. Okay. By the way, we should definitely do- We'll bring Thoreau, we'll bring our friends.

I'm doing this Bro-Topia dinners where I just invited a bunch of men to dinners. Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for inviting me, but go ahead. Well, you might be an honorary guest sometime. You invited me to the women dinner, the chick flicks, so I can serve. That's my favorite. You think it's hilarious that men serve you. Yes, I do. I think it's appropriate.

But where I'm going is, if we went down, we should try this test. If we just immediately, like 9 p.m., headed to Zero Bond or Casa Trapani or one of my other douchebag members clubs, and we started texting people, I bet so many people would join us. My new theme is last-minute texting.

Hey, do you want to grab a drink or do you want to grab dinner? And so many people are more available than you think. Well, you should do that. I'm going to be with Anderson Cooper tonight. That's what I'm doing. AC? What are you doing with AC? Yeah, I'm going on the show. Yeah, I'm going on the show. All right. AC 360? Yeah. Yeah. AC? What are you doing with AC? Yeah, I'm going on the show.

Yeah, I'm going on the show. All right, AC 360? Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll bring him. He's got the biggest show on CNN. He gets like 40, 45 viewers. So that's a big deal for you. Good. I love AC.

Don't be. By the way, he was great on New Year's, wasn't he? With Andy Cohen, that was pretty funny. I don't watch TV anymore. Do you actually watch TV? I watch, well, yeah, I watch. You got all angry. I thought that woman was hilarious.

What was her name? Who? The comedian who came on. I didn't get angry. I thought that woman was hilarious. What was her name? Who? The comedian who came on. I didn't get angry. I don't care. There was a comedian who came on. No, I just don't think she's funny. I don't think she's very funny.

Whitney, Whitney Cummings. I don't think she's, I didn't get angry. I just don't think she's funny. Whitney Cummings has become increasingly unfunny. I never thought she was particularly funny, but now she's deeply unfunny. I love that New Year's show. I love when people drink on TV.

That was a good show, I have to say. The whole thing was great. He kept every time Andy Cohen, when he kept going, Eric Adams is over there, by the way, he was indicted. He kept saying, that was so fun. We should do that. We should do a New Year's show. We should.

I like that they drink. I think we should do that. I'm going on a thing here. I don't know if you've heard, but S general Vivek Murti wants to put a cancer warning on alcohol, which I get. Yeah. But I'm on a pro, like, I think if you're under the age of 30 and your liver can process it, I think you need to drink more.

All those medical doctors, those famous doctors, they see drunkenness. I see togetherness. I think that was an interesting statistic. The statistics are pretty scary. Around breast cancer, it is actually scary. All kinds of stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's why I'll live forever. You and Trump.

Anyway, we should go out drinking tonight and go see Wicked, I dare you. We'll take you, we'll kidnap you and make you a see Wicked. Yeah, no, I'm down for half of that. You know, on one half, look, we'll have like George Hawn and maybe Justin Theroux sitting on one side singing. I'll be on the other side singing. I'll get someone else who knows the words.

It'll be really great. It'll be fun. Anyway. I'm doing a breath work lesson tonight. Can you believe that? I have fallen so far. I have someone coming over to teach me how to breathe better. What? Marty, I'm literally getting anxious thinking about it. You hired someone to teach you to breathe? Yeah. I went to Summit and I met this dude who seemed very groovy and

she and chill and he's like, he only grabbed my hands and looked into my eyes and he's like, I just really want to do breath work with you. And I'm like, all right, come over and we'll do breath work. I think it's just that you know what's going to be happening. Yeah, I think you're going to be having, I think you're having an experience tonight. That's what I think is going to happen. You think I'm getting oral sex? Yeah, I do.

Is that what you're trying to say on Pivot? Yeah, I think that's what's happening. But good, that'll be it. You know what? Every summer solstice that happens for me. You might be giving it. You might be giving it. Every summer solstice.

Breathwork. That's a good euphemism for the whole breathwork. Breathwork. Yeah, no, my kind of objectives for New Year's are relax the throat and maintain eye contact. There you go. Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Anyway, so let's get up. What are we talking about?

We're talking about, we're talking about, we have a lot to catch up on today. We've been, you have missed me so much. It's true, we talked a lot over the holidays actually. And there's a lot of news including the end of net neutrality, not as interesting, Tesla sales dropping, Metis preparation for Trump, Europe attacking. Elon of course has made a spectacle of himself.

He spent New Year's with the president dancing to gay songs at Mar-a-Lago. It looks sad. That looked so sad. I was like, I didn't feel sorry for him because he's an asshole, but there's a lot going on. Let's start. Actually, there's been some major important stories happening. This is January 6th when we're taping this, which was not a day of love by any stretch when Trump lost.

But he's back and he's going to let off quite a few of those people apparently. But first, the most important thing that's been out is this, for us, at least the TikTok ban. President-elect Donald Trump has urged the Supreme Court to pause the TikTok ban. In a legal finding, Trump said the delay would allow his administration to pursue a negotiated resolution. The Justice Department has responded by asking the court to reject the delay request. The Supreme Court has said to hear arguments on the case on Friday.

And I have suggested that Elon Musk is going to try to buy it and merge it with X. And probably Larry Ellison will probably be in there. A whole bevy of Trump supporters will get the inside track to that. Also, Kevin O'Leary, who I'm not a big fan of, has joined the People's Bid for TikTok. It's being led by Project Liberty founder Frank Bacourt to purchase the assets. I talked to one of the other people named as a bidder, and he said the whole thing is ridiculous. It's not going to get sold.

There's just no way and the Chinese aren't going to allow it, etc., etc. Any thoughts? I wonder if nothing happens in the sense that, so I met Frank McCourt's kid or son, and he was talking about how Frank wanted, just a while ago, wanted to put together a consortium of it on it. I don't see, I think this is a CCP influence company, I won't say controlled.

I don't think the Chinese want to be forced into doing anything right now. And so, and the idea that you and the information have floated is that Musk and Alison will partner with the blessing of the Trump administration and Trump will try and give this to them like a gift and force the Chinese to divest it. I don't think she scares that easily. I thought that if he was able to dictate the terms of the sale and maintain some economic

interests that it might, you know, I predicted it would be divested. I think now it likely won't because I think what might happen is that the Supreme Court can rule that the banning is legitimate and uphold it because defense issues typically trump First Amendment issues. Yeah, they do. That's what's been, for people who don't know, that's what the courts have been saying. The appeals court said that people suggest the Supreme Court will do the same thing. But my understanding is Trump, in a kind of sleight of hand, could direct the DOJ and law enforcement to not punish Apple or Alphabet, who would be responsible for enforcing its

removal from the app stores and basically say, we will not prosecute you or enforce this legislation or law if you violate it and leave TikTok on these platforms. So a possibility here that's less dramatic, but increasingly likely is, you know what happens? Nothing. Interesting. Anyway, your thoughts, Kara?

I don't know if corporations will do that. Interestingly, oddly enough, I think it was Andrew Jackson who didn't follow, I think it was Jackson, who didn't follow a rule the Supreme Court set for Indian tribes and he just didn't enforce it. Like there is precedent for not enforcing what the Supreme Court says, which is really, it's not unprecedented, but it's very, it's not very common. I don't know if Apple and Google will go along with that because eventually there won't be Trump, right? And there will be lawsuits and things like that. So I'm not quite sure they will do a, ha ha, great, we don't have to do anything.

I would suspect maybe he'll try to get Congress to pass another law that isn't a ban, right? It's got to go through Congress, I think, this thing. And since he has control of it, he could possibly get a new law that supersedes this law. That would be what I would imagine happening. But the fact of the matter is, I think, by not enforcing it, it doesn't mean the companies won't enforce it themselves. That's a big decision on Tim Cook's to have a wink and a nod with Trump on not being prosecuted. I don't know. I think they would listen to the Supreme Court over Donald Trump in that regard. That's a fair point. But here are some numbers. So 15 percent, 100 million, and 15 million.

So 15 percent is the percentage of TikTok that Jeffrey Yass owns. In the private market, TikTok is trading at $300 billion. And that's low, I would imagine. Actually, what's interesting is it hasn't gone down, despite the fact that it might have been sort of suppressed, but the last private round valuation was around 250, and it's actually ticked up to 300. And this guy, Yass, owns 15 percent,

so he has about a $45 billion stake in this company. And here's the fun part. He donated, him and his wife donated $100 million to Republicans this past election cycle. And then the final number, Trump has 15 million followers on TikTok. He loves it. He's talked about it publicly.

So people talk about the $250 million and counting that Musk gave to Trump. Well, okay, probably a close second here in terms of individuals is the guy who has a 15% stake and a lot of economic interests in maintaining TikTok's momentum. He's in for 100 million. And personally, I would imagine that Trump loves

having 15 million people to communicate directly with. He's not dumb. He understands. No, he says it. He said it explicitly. He loves TikTok now. They love me on there. I'm huge. He attributed his winning to his popularity on TikTok, not to Musk's TikTok, which was interesting. Just to remind, I had breakfast with

Jonathan Haidt this morning and I said, of all the platforms, what do you think is the Sith Lord? What is the most dangerous? He said, in his view, TikTok is the most addictive. My experience with my 14-year-old is that everything else is math or opiate and TikTok is, you know, heroin. Like it is just, I find it too. I find I can just go down a rabbit hole with TikTok.

Yeah, I don't go on it because I watch it too much. I watch it. The others are already, you know, already Instagram is already really interesting. And I do it rather than watch television or whatever, because I like weird videos. But yeah, TikTok, I don't fire it up. I just don't. I just can't because I do it rather than watch television or whatever, because I like weird videos. But yeah, TikTok, I don't fire it up. I just can't because I know it's really addictive, and I don't have an addictive personality,

and it works really well on me too. It responds to everyone in the way they like, right? That's the thing. That's what's so powerful about it. I don't know. I just feel like there's, I don't actually know what's going to happen here. Like what everybody, because there's so many different things. I would imagine.

A lot of moving parts. If I had to guess, I think the Supreme Court will stick with national security. I think they will do that. They've done it all the time. Like this one seems very obvious. At the same time, there are some free speechers over there. Like, why are we doing this?

But I don't think they wanna be, you know, tarred with the idea that they're against national security and for China. And somehow I feel like there's some weird roll up with Musk and Twitter and this, and maybe through social and Ellison's got to be around the basket, hovering around the baskets. He was in the last round, if you recall. Around the hoop, is that what you're attempting? The hoop, whatever, yes, I know. And I spent all Christmas with my son, Alex.

So, I don't know, we don't know what's going to happen. That's our answer to this question. Very briefly, a federal appeals court has struck down the FCC's restoration of net. Everything is tech and politics this year, just so you know. We should do a podcast on this. Yeah, I know that. Of net neutrality rules, the decision was made by an all-Republican panel.

The judges ruled that the FCC does not have the authority to prohibit telecom companies from blocking internet content or creating fast lanes accessible with fees. I mean, this goes back and forth and back and forth on every administration. I just got lost sight of this. What do you think the biggest consequences are here?

Well, to be fair, a lot of our progressive brothers and sisters, a hair was on fire when net neutrality was, wasn't this, didn't this kind of happen a couple years ago? And we thought, oh, it's the end of the world. I feel like I've been covering it since the beginning of time. Because the fear is, the wonderful thing about the internet was it essentially cut out. The way I see it is, the greatest greatest one of the greatest tax cuts for consumers Was to say all right for the people who weaponized government and figure out a way to have regulated monopolies I am monopoly and say we're the only cable company

that can offer you cable in Manhattan which makes no fucking sense because it costs so much, you know they make all these arguments and they get basically a mandate to have a because it costs so much. You know, they make all these arguments and they get basically a mandate to have a monopoly similar to the NFL or whoever you want to, pick your favorite monopoly that's kind of quote unquote a regulated monopoly.

And net neutrality basically says, I know you don't need Comcast or you don't need, you know, an editor from the New York Times or from Fox. With net neutrality, you're Netflix and you don't even need Blockbuster or, you know, with YouTube, you can become your own creator. With Substack, you can write your own views on net neutrality. And whatever voices bubble up using this amazing means of production that's just infinitely less expensive called the Internet, and everyone has equal access to it.

And the fears, though, has been that large corporations who weaponize government or have more capital are just going to get preferential access or speeds or they might throttle the bandwidth for certain organizations over the other. To be fair, those fears have not, as far as I can tell, been realized. I do think it was in good faith that they tried to do this, right, tried to have this done and that these companies could have really charged way too much for some people and not enough for others and others don't get access to it. But I think you're right.

I think it's a very, very difficult thing. But the question is whether the FCC has authority. And I think that's the issue is who has authority over, that is to me a really interesting question for 2025 and beyond is like, there aren't really, it's not very clear which of these agencies, the FDC, the FCC have authority over the internet, right? Of who should have it.

And it's never been made clear. But is that a bug or a feature? I don't know. Right, exactly. But the issue is everyone else has. It's very clear where planes go. It's very clear where pharmaceuticals go. And the tech industry has no, and it has to do with the First Amendment.

It has to do with a lot of things, because it's not just a pill. It's not just a plane, right? It has First Amendment issues. It has political implications, it has all kinds of things attached to it. But it's, look, this is what's going to be for the next four years. They're not going to, net neutrality is dead for now, right? And I think when the Democrats get back in power, if they do, and they will eventually, or someone, the facsimile

of that will, they will try to protect consumers more. That's their inclination more than this. These guys are like, let's let the markets figure this out in the way the market should. If one of the big companies gets screwed by any of these telco companies, they'll be other ways. But now people are getting their internet through Starlink, or they're getting it through the telcos, or they're getting it through all kinds of satellite companies, not just Starlink, but others.

So I do think you're right. There's been sort of a that there has been a lot of options for people. To me, I think internet access should be like utilities. I just feel like it should be regulated like a utility. Everyone should have it like they have lights or they have water or they have POTUS, remember POTS, Plain Old Telephone Service. That is not happening. But to me, that's how it should have been done from the start. This is a utility. Everybody gets it. The government pays for it.

In an effort to sex up the story, which should be pretty easy, I remember when the South Korean government, when Squid Games came out, they said basically, the internet is being stressed so much here, we need to charge Netflix some sort of carriage fee because we're literally running out of bandwidth because of download of Squid Games. By the way, I watched season two of Squid Games. Not watching it, I can't watch it.

It's really violent and upsetting. Yeah, that guy is brilliant. That guy is brilliant. I've read all about it. I haven't watched it, but go ahead. No, this notion that a media property can still basically, I mean, it's broadband and processing power and fossil fuels. No matter how much we find, produce, or what kind of innovation

there is, we always find ways to utilize all of that additional energy. Always. There's always more, there's more ways to arbitrage petroleum, bandwidth, processing power. And now AI, of course, which is raising rates all over the country, of course. Yeah. Well, that's another talk show. And going back to that, that's why I think nuclear is making a

comeback because everyone's like, oh, gosh, we're going to need a lot more energy. Yeah. The only bigger arbitrage in history other than petroleum is finding really talented young people and paying them 20% of what you pay a less talented 45-year-old. That's been the biggest arbitrage in economic history. Seriously, think about it.

I know that. I've been, I've had some time, I had a lot of free time and a lot of edibles over the holidays and one of my big themes for 2025 is I used to think we were an attention economy. Now I'm totally sold on the fact that we don't, we live in an addiction economy. If you look at the 10 companies that have had the greatest stock returns over the last 10 or 20 years, they're all in the business of addiction, whether it's Metta or Alphabet. And then if you look at the companies over the last 50 years that have had the greatest returns, they're really salty, sugary food companies and

or tobacco companies or they're pharmaceutical companies. So basically our entire economy runs on addicting people to content, sugary, shitty food, and then treating them with GLP-1 drugs or hospital systems. Our entire, every company, if you look at all the stocks that have outperformed the S&P for the last 50 years, they all have, and I think AI is the fentanyl that speedballs addiction, makes Facebook ads much better, makes TikTok much more addictive.

But I had this recognition that essentially our entire economy has run on addiction. Well, attention is addiction, right? Isn't it? The attention economy is a version, is a subset of it. But attention is a measurement for addiction. The reason why TikTok garners so much attention and YouTube does is because they have figured out a way to zero in on what hits your dopa and gets you addicted, and you'd end up spending way more time on these things than you should. And then they'll hand you over to GLP-1 drugs or hospitals or high blood pressure medication

or whatever it might be to try and get you off of social media, off of sugary, fatty foods. But anyways, my other big realization was that the most valuable companies in the world culturally have one thing in common, and that is they're able to attract the ultimate arbitrage. And that is a really smart, educated 24-year-old who for 80, 100, 150, 200,000 will work their ass off,

won't complain about not getting to see their dogs, their spouses, or their kids, and do 80 percent of what a really talented 45-year-old will do for 30 percent of the pay. If you look at the most valuable companies in the world, they have a disproportionate amount of incredibly talented young people who are being armed against 40 and 50-year-olds. Although they're getting old, the founders are now getting old. Yeah, but the top people always do fine, right?

They can get old. But if you look at sort of kind of upper senior management to all the way down to the workers, the arbitrage, unless you make the jump to light speed by the time you're 45, is to say, and I've done it quite frankly at companies, I'm consistently impressed and find, oh, this person who's 35 or 40 who's making really good money, wants to leave, and then we find some 25-year-old graduate of Syracuse or Cornell, and we're like, wow, their 80% is good for 40% of the price.

And you don't like to say that out loud, but the most valuable companies in the world, whether it's Goldman or McKinsey or Alphabet, they all have one thing in common. They're able to attract more of those people and engage in that arbitrage. Anyways, that's what I did this holiday season. What did you do? I had all the kids in San Francisco. We did a lot of stuff. You were in Africa, correct? South Africa. South Africa, yes.

Yeah. I was in San Francisco. We had a great time. I win. I win. No, I had a ball. Yeah, no, I win. My boys and girls. South Africa, San Francisco. Love my wife. My ex I had a ball. Yeah, no, no, I win. My boys. South Africa, San Francisco.

Love my wife. My ex-wife was there. My mother. Total modern family. Yeah, I literally was. I was like, I should be a reality show. Megan is not married again? She doesn't have a-

No. Really? Ladies, she's single and rich. So anyway. Hello. Hello. Jeff was there. Oh yeah, I love Jeffrey Swisher.

How was Dr. Swisher doing? Great, we had a great time. We was there. Oh, yeah. I love Jeffrey Swisher. How was Dr. Swisher doing? Great. We had a great time. We had a great time, I have to say. Oh, nice. Yeah, you seemed very happy when I talked to you the other night.

Yeah. I really enjoy my family quite a bit. They make me laugh. And we had a lot of beefs. There was a lot of beefs happening, which was good. We like a beef. A little beef? A lot of beefs, but little beefs, but nothing drastic.

So anyway, let's move on to something else. I like this idea. I like this. I like, we're going to spin narratives all through the year, I think. I think there's a lot of narratives we're going to spin and bring new insights to our listeners. By the way, in San Francisco, it was approached by so many people, again, who love our show. Oh, here we go. I was wondering how long we started patting ourselves in the back.

Here's why, because I feel like it invigorates me to go into the new year. People really like what we do and they feel- You like me, you really like me. You're like Sally Fields on repeat. No, no, it makes them feel good and I like that. I like the idea that we're delivering products that people like and they want to listen to. I'm doing breath work. I'm sorry. I can't believe you're doing breath work. You literally make fun of liberals.

And you're like a San Francisco lady person who with yoga pants. Why don't you wear your Juicy Couture while you're doing it? I'm fighting the erectile dysfunction and the arthritis as long as I can. I need to learn how to breathe better. You're like an ad for a Palo Alto mother. It's like just like breath work. Palo Alto mother. It's like just-

Palo Alto mother. Okay. Anyway, you're a type and that you make fun of, which is my favorite part. You go on and on about me being the liberal crazy. I'm like, I would never do breath work. I think it's ridiculous, but go ahead, go for it. You're a liberal on crazy. Let me show you how to breathe.

I do it without even thinking about it, it's incredible. Here, give me $25 for that. So- Oh no, it's much more expensive than that. I gotta pay this guy like 500 bucks. I am certain it is. That's what I'm gonna come over and do. Maybe I am getting oral sex.

500 bucks. I hope so. Something to look forward to. All right, let's get to ads. I gotta get going. No, no. So another thing, a cartoonist at the Washington Post has quit after a cartoon depicting billionaires,

including Jeff Bezos kneeling before President-elect Donald Trump was blocked from publication. And Telneas, I think that's how you pronounce it, published a sketch of the cartoon on Substack saying it was the first time a work had been rejected because of who it depicted. She's a Pulitzer Prize winner, by the way, amazing cartoonist. The Washington Post editorial page editor David Shipley said the cartoon was rejected because of its similarity to columns at the paper rather than its subject, although he managed to publish many similar columns over and over again. This is nonsense what David Shipley said. And now I can say it very explicitly because Amanda quit the Washington Post. He is really, this was nonsense, his excuse.

In other related news, Amazon has announced that it will release a behind-the-scenes documentary on Melania Trump by Brett Ratner, who was sucked up into the MeToo stuff rather egregiously. He seems to be a really problematic person. The New York Times did some really astonishing coverage on his behavior. So that was nice. What do you think, Scott? You want to buy the Washington Post with me? This is such peacocking. First off, if I'm going to spend a lot of money to be put in pain, he or she better be wearing leather and be hot. I just, what do you do? Anyways, now I'm not crazy. That is literally, I think I told you,

one I haven't experienced- I'm waiting to hear your feedback, but go ahead. Well, no, I brazed back in the heyday of hedge funds, I convinced a hedge fund manager to give me $600 million to become the largest shareholder in the New York Times. And I learned a decent amount about newsrooms and the collision between shareholder governance and journalism and newsrooms. I've quickly learned or I've got

a very expensive lesson in the following and that is, these are important institutions. I even wonder at some point if they should have some sort of tax benefit, because I think they do really important work. But at the end of the day, these are institutions that should be owned by trusts and they should have a trust that basically hires the right guy or gal to run the thing and they just stay the fuck out of it. But-

Well, maybe I have that idea. Maybe I'm not doing it your way, Scott Galloway. Well, I know, but what I would argue, so just to bring in the viewers, just to bring the listeners up, just to bring the listeners up, there's been a lot of rumors that you're assembling a group to make a bid for the Washington Post. And what I haven't heard is that Jeff Bezos is willing to sell it. Correct.

And so all of this in my view, and I don't know, sort of all ship no salsa. Doesn't matter. Yeah. So we can, we or when I say we, I mean you complain about the post and the ownership. But if you, and I told you this on the phone the other night, if you were serious about doing this, you would have had offline conversations with Bezos and said, can I put together a group that includes you

and gives you some shark repellent and inoculates you from this bullshit and grief, which you are probably not enjoying right now, and gives you plausible deniability where you can say, oh, it's up to the, it's kind of like what you, I think, if you were serious, get, you have to get Jeff on board. Yes, you're correct. This is what I'm attempting to do. Try and get, um. Because again, you're not asking if I'm attempting to do this.

Well, uh, right. But the way you would do this, Kara, is quietly. I think you're wrong. You're not going to shame this guy into selling the post. I'm not shaming him. I actually have praised his ownership until recently. I have been very much praising his ownership until recently. I think it's much more complex. I don't think that's what I'm doing.

I think there's ways to do things and calling attention to it, and bringing it to the conversation. There's a lot more people than me looking at this, by the way, FYI. And I think the only way, and I'm meeting with everybody, this is how I'm approaching it. I'm a reporter, I was an excellent reporter. I certainly was a much better reporter. I think you still are an excellent reporter.

I am, much more so than the guy who's the CEO of the company, by the way, by far. You are not going to get this thing, ship-posting the current CEO. I think he, fine, whatever. It doesn't matter. It's not ship-posting. I'm telling, I'm saying what I think. That is not ship-posting. That was the definition of ship-posting.

I am a better reporter. I'm sorry. It's a factual thing. Okay. So I think the way to do it is start the conversation and get it going rather than these. I am so sick of these quiet little deals that largely white men make with each other. They get done? You mean deals that get done? They get done. So I'm doing it a different way. I'm doing it a different way.

I don't think that you have to do, like you know how you don't talk about try to do things differently, try to think of new ways to do things? That's what I'm doing. I'm talking to everybody. Everybody, and you'd be surprised who I'm talking to. By the way, someone who was doubtful, I had a long, long conversation with a billionaire who was doubtful, had a long, long conversation last night.

Suddenly, he's very engaged in the idea because he'd started to listen to the various ideas. I think it's okay. What else would Mark Cuban say? No, no, that's not what I'm talking about. So, but he would be great, someone like that. I welcome his input because I think he's really smart. I welcome the feedback of

negativity that you are displaying. That's fine, that's great. I think it's good to talk to everyone and understand what the various possibilities would be. One of the things that I think doing this thing, and then we'll end this, is why not just talk about it explicitly? If I ran this thing, everything would be transparent. I would broadcast.

You know how you have all these media reporters like feeders talking about what happened at a meeting? I'd broadcast the fucking meeting. What's the secret here? It's losing money. Here's how much money we're losing. Here's why. Here's what we invested in.

I think one of the reasons Pivot's successful is because we're very transparent about what we're up to most of the time. We really are. And we say when we make mistakes, I would make it public, I'd make it a narrative. I would come up with lots of ideas. And I agree with you,

it's not a money-making situation. You do an HBO series like Drive to Survive or Behind the Music or those things where they go, they depict the season and the team. You're out, survivor. Yeah, it's a great story and at the heart of it is something you said. I think you think those people in that institution is more interesting than it is. I think you find it fascinating. No, I think it is. A small group of Beltway people in Calorama find it interesting.

No. Most of them find that the reporters in the newsroom are amazing at reporting and they brighten up a room by leaving it. I just don't think it's that dramatic a story. I think it's a great story. I think it's got it. The Washington Post has

a particular hold on this country in a way that's really wonderful in many ways. By the way, you don't think Ben Bradley was interesting. That was so fantastic. He was such a fantastic. Catherine Graham. I have all kinds of ideas to make it interesting, and it is actually inherently interesting. And the idea that there's one newspaper, the New York Times, and also you could do all kinds of things with papers around the country. Like, what's the fresh idea here is all I'm going for is

I'm open to the fresh idea of how you could save this institution in a way that is really interesting and it doesn't you don't have to have a foregone conclusion of every single thing. I agree it's easier to start it from scratch, it's easier to do it by yourself, it's easier to do it very lightweight, you run all over the country without a lot of things. But this is a particular and peculiar institution I think is important. I obviously have an emotional connection to it because I started there in the newsroom.

I have an emotional connection. But there really is something about, there cannot just be the New York Times. By the way, something's going to happen with the Wall Street Journal when Rupert goes, who knows what goes on with that institution. Then over in the West Coast, you got Looney Tunes,

the guy who's running that guy, who seems to have started off a liberal, now he's a Trump-er. It's like, and he's got, like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah, but you're defining media by the fact that it's printed on dead trees. You're defining media. There's a lot of competition. There's a lot of- I agree. I told Don Graham when I left, why are you even printing it? This was back in the 90s. I was like, I don't even understand why you print it. I don't Graham when I left, why are you even printing it? This was back in the 90s. I was like, I don't even understand why you print it.

I don't, I don't actually. I still don't. So I'm just saying, I think this is interesting. I find it to be like, it's an interesting puzzle to Kara Swisher. And I have a million other things I'm doing that are much more lucrative, that are much more promising. Enjoy, just be-

I love this. You're so good. You're leaning. Just promising. Enjoy, just be- I love this. You're so good, you're leaning. Just be a billionaire, just be a wealthy lesbian. Buy like a roller derby team or something. I don't wanna do breath work. I want to do, this is my breath work. This is my breath work. Be like, bathe those guts that you don't.

He's on a fucking yacht with a woman in a G-string in St. Barts and you're talking about all this pain, self-inflicted pain. You're about to go into a dentist's office and say, hold off on the Novacaine. I mean, you've been in newsrooms, I'll give you that. I know, I've been in all of them.

I can't believe you would subject yourself to that bullshit. I think there's a new way. Let me just tell you, this is my breath work and I'm going to fucking do it. You literally hired someone to teach you to breathe today and you're giving me a hard time about something that is actually slightly noble even, and that's not and I'm going to fucking do it. You literally hired someone to teach you to breathe today and you're giving me a hard time about something that is actually slightly noble even. And that's not why I'm doing it. I think it's fun.

I actually, anyway, we'll see what happens, but I predict in 2025, I will meet with Jeff Bezos or my name isn't Kara Swisher. Okay. I'm going to meet him. I wouldn't put it past you. I wouldn't put it past you. He's going to do it. And you know what?

He's going to like it. He and me and Lauren and he will be laughing it up on his yacht. I wouldn't put it past you. I'm doing it. He's going to do it. And you know what? He's going to like it. He and me and Lauren will be laughing it up on his yacht. But let me just say, I think this is fun for me. I don't know why he owns it. And I want to give him, I know a Jeff Bezos that's different than this, let me say, that loves the challenge. And this is the Jeff Bezos behaving here is not the Jeff Bezos I liked.

I'm sold, but I don't matter. And I, anyways. I'm gonna give you a column, just like a video column. I'm in for a dollar and I'll come to the party in DC. Okay, here's what I'm gonna do for you. I'm gonna strap a GoPro on your head. Strap what? And just broadcast it. Oh, I'm sorry.

On a part of you. I'm gonna strap on you. And I'm gonna just have Scott Galloway every day. And that's just it. That's all I'm gonna do. All right. That's one of the content. You had me at strap on you and I'm going to just have Scott Galloway every day and that's just it. That's all I'm going to do. That's one of the content. You had me at strap on. Go buy the Washington Post. I shall. You'll see. You're going to help me. You are going to help me. It doesn't matter.

You're going to help me because I know you can't resist. I'm going to save you from yourself is what I'm going to do. No, you're not. I'm doing just fine in all my other endeavors. Oh, you're doing ridiculously fine. Don't fuck it up. I'm not going to fuck it up. I have plenty of energy. I have plenty of energy. Anyway, it's invigorating me, Scott.

It's invigorating. Again, you're doing breath work. This is my breath work. Let me do my fucking breath work. And all right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Tesla sales slip and Meta plays nice with Trump. What a shock. Come back, Tesla sales slip, and Meta plays nice with Trump. What a shock.

It's a new year. Maybe you're taking a month off from drinking, you know, dry January, and maybe you're replacing it with something else. Puff puff pass. Some like one in five people who do dry January say they're smoking weed instead. And more Americans are now smoking weed daily than drinking daily. Current president is into it.

No one should be in jail merely for using or possessing marijuana, period. Future president is into it. I've had friends and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing, the medical marijuana. Failed president and former prosecutor was down to clown. People shouldn't have to go to jail for smoking weed.

Even health conscious brain worm guy likes it. My position on marijuana is that it should be federally legalized. Everyone's getting down with pot, but legislatively we're still stuck with a hot mess in the United States. Today explained. Wherever you listen, come find us. Support for Pivot comes from Coda. Turning your back on a napkin idea into a billion dollar startup requires countless

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Some troubles for Tesla. Tesla sales fell in 2024, the first year over year global sales declined since 2011, but it seems inevitable. The drop was not used about 1% but signals increasing competition from Tesla's rivals like China's BYD, which has never has newer models, lower prices and, frankly, better cars. Tesla shares dropped 6% following the news of declining sales, but the company did end up 68% on zero economics thanks to the post-election surge and the idea

that Elon Musk owns the world, which he kind of does. His value has gone up double from a couple to a hundred billion to 400 billion right now. You know, I love two things. What do you see happening with EB sales in 2025 just beyond Tesla, by the way? Rivian shares have had their best day ever after the EB company reported slightly better fourth quarter car delivery data than Wall Street. That's a beautiful car, that Rivian. I got to tell you, really. Every time I see it, I'm like, that is one hell of a looking car.

Obviously, the Cybertruck got sucked up into that guy who killed himself, the troubled man. And that photo, you posted a photo of the Cybertruck in flames in front of the Trump Hotel with the Trump brand right there. Give me your bigger thoughts on EVs and what's going on here with Tesla shares, obviously. It's a meme stock at this point.

Yeah, but I've just been famously wrong about Tesla stocks, so I'm allowed to say anything. But it's difficult to understand how a company is trading on every metric at a greater multiple than any other automobile or even manufacturing company, maybe the exception of NVIDIA, which arguably is an IP company, not a manufacturing company, when its sales were down year on year. Just name a tech company. I'm, it's all on his friendship with Trump, right? This guy jumps from lily pad to lily pad.

I've never seen someone so adept at jumping, like finding some other hand waving bullshit. He actually has actual power. It's not like he doesn't, he has actual money. You got to give it to the guy. A lot of people have said, Scott, you're just not privy to his genius. He's playing chess, you're playing checkers.

But so far they're right and I'm wrong because he gives a quarter of a billion dollars to Trump and his net worth after his election, 12 weeks post his election, or excuse me, eight weeks post his election is up $150 million. So the best trade of 2024 was at $250 million. And the value, his net worth has largely been driven by the expectation and the acknowledgement that we are now in a full kleptocracy and that he will be on the right side of that because he gave a quarter of a billion dollars and it's impacting everything else, including this notion that TikTok will probably figure out a way to get around this because a hundred million dollars will buy that. The EV market itself was up 24% in comparison to 2023, and yet this company was down.

BYD is probably the most important manufacturing company in the world that you haven't heard of. It's now besting Tesla in terms of global sales with a- Explain what BYD is, just for people who don't know. Well, it's essentially the Tesla of China, and they have figured out a way to punch out into the marketplace, you know, sans tariffs, a $12,000 or $14,000 fairly competent EV. Yeah, I want to buy one. I see them. I think they're adorable. They look great. They look fun. They look, you know. Rivian was up 24% on Friday because it beat expectations,

but even Rivian is probably not, is probably subscale and can't survive on its own. When you buy a Rivian, you're basically getting 30 or $40,000 from Jeff Bezos and the shareholders of Rivian because I think they cost about 110 or 120 to produce and they sell them for 80 or 90. Rivian's production was down 13% from 2023, but still above revised production forecast. So it's struggling. I would argue that the thing that is overperformed in the automobile market is hybrid, specifically in Toyota took advantage of that.

And there's still a stubborn group of people, despite everyone saying electric is the future, that really like a internal combustion engine. And so, look, I don't, the company also announced it was free from the part shortages that plague Q3 and forced the company to shut down assembly lines and revise down production guidance. That was Rivian again.

But I don't, I've never understood the valuation on Tesla and used the word meme style. It's Elon, it's the valuation on Elon is what it is. That's all it is, where he is in any moment in time. It has nothing to do with the system. And by the way, the cars just aren't interesting anymore. They were absolutely innovative at the time. But so many complaints.

It's so clear that they haven't done anything innovative in the car space. I don't think he cares anymore. He's bored with it, right? This is not his interest. He has other interests now like plaguing Britain or Canada or Europe, stuff like that. He has other interests that take his time now

or hanging out at Mar-a-Lago in the cottage. I don't get it. Neither of us get it and nor will we comment, but as long as he's on the up swing with Trump, it will stay that way, correct? There are two stocks where I think if they went down 50 or 60 percent, we would say, well, of course they did, or actually three. I think Palantir is basically an analytics company that has this incredible storytelling

CEO in this veneer of spy versus spy. And I think he's redefined investor relations as it means, as it relates to storytelling, going on Bill Maher, being very kind of pro-America, creating this veneer. We work with the CIA and what we do is so sophisticated. I can't talk about it. I think the guy is just a masterful storyteller. I think he's fascinating. Alex Karp, he really is.

But it's basically Gartner with cooler branding and a cooler CEO. And it trades it. It's not going to like that. Well, by the way, Gene Hall, the CEO of Gartner, has been fantastic for shareholders. I agree. I just love that. And a very competent CEO. You amuse me, Scott Galloway, but go ahead.

But the other two, I would argue, would be NVIDIA. I think so many big players are coming for Nvidia. So many well, the deepest pocketed firms in the world are looking at this giant carcass of the GPUs, the power, AI, and saying, I want in, I need to take a bite of that. The biggest sharks in the world are circling this carcass. And every major company from Meta to Apple has decided we need to be in the business of making these chips.

And so, you know, the first time there's- We said that last year, commodity eventually. Or a slowdown, or a slowdown in AI, reduction spending, whatever it is. It does feel like it's not going to be Cisco where it goes down 90% from 99 to 2001. But if that thing got cut in half in 16 weeks, we'd all say, well, of course it did. You know what you're going to see? Let me just point out with Cisco,

remember when they started to do all kinds of wacky stuff, like presence, like videos and stuff like that. That was the sign for me when they came off their main business, which was making the money and they started investing in all kinds of nonsense. If you see that in Nvidia, it's a signal. Anyway, go ahead. I was living in San Francisco. I bought the house that's next to where Mark Zuckerberg moved in.

It was this 99. I decided I had an existential crisis. I'm glad we can bring this back to me. And I thought, I don't like San Francisco. I don't like technology. I don't like startups. I don't like VCs. I don't like being married.

And I stopped all of those things and moved to New York and joined the faculty of NYU. I literally, when I think of Cisco and what happened in 99, I think of that's when I started, I literally pressed the restart button in my entire life. Anyways, I don't know what we're talking about here. That's a good story I'd never heard, but I like it. Go ahead, finish your, wait, NVIDIA?

NVIDIA, like some of these can be NVIDIA, Palantir, and then my favorite short where I have been wrong consistently for five years is Tesla. I just don't get it. They have some interesting products. They say, oh, it's an energy company. They wrap steel around a motor, and it's great steel and a great motor,

but it trades at 40 times revenues versus five. So at some point, you know, I'm Nouriel Roubini, who has been predicting economic crises since he got his PhD. He has. He's Dr. Doom. Every seven or 15 years, he's right. He's right. Yeah. You are. You are Dr. Doom. Interestingly, it depends on, to me, he's right. He's right, yeah. Yeah, you are. So. You are Dr. Doom. Interestingly, it depends on, to me, it's all the stock market of Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

That's really what it is. And so, in the latest episode of On with Kara Swisher, I was talking to New York Times senior political correspondent Maggie Haberman today. She's been covering Donald Trump for years, and now she's also covering Trump's BFF, Elon Musk, Our Lives Have Intersected. She talked what happens to that relationship when Trump takes office, which could be not good news for Donald Trump. Let's listen.

Sarah Bruckner-Maloney, Ph.D., Ph.D., Ph.D. Musk comes with something that, you know, quote unquote, President Bannon did not, which is a lot of money. And I think that buys him a fair amount of time. But I just think that when Trump goes to Washington and he's not sitting on the patio, you know, when Musk can walk over from from Banyan Cottage, you know, where he's been staying, I think it's gonna be tougher. Tougher for Musk. Tougher for Musk.

Yeah. I mean, again, I don't think it's gonna completely change. These things are like it's like it's like watching shifting sands around Trump. Do you know what I mean? It's like this one's up, this one's down, and I don't, but nobody's ever totally out. I like quicksand. Yeah, I think you're right, Scott. Quicksand. I think one of the things no one's ever out and obviously their interests are aligned at this point, but there is a moment that

Trump will, you know, once he gets into the Oval Office, it's a very different thing than being at Mar-a-Lago, right? Doing this weird Mar-a-Lago thing. And the question is what Maggie was saying, which is interesting, there's a card, it's either a blue or green card that gets you instant access into the White House, whether he gets one, whether he gets an office in the executive office building,

whether he gets a West Wing office, that'll be a lot of things. And if he gets a West Wing office, the Tesla Sheriffs will go up. That's how I look at it. I don't know. We'll see. By the way, I don't know about you, but absolutely the most terrifying thing that I could conceive of when I was 11 was not Darth Vader,

it was not Jason, it was not illness, it was quicksand. Quicksand. Remember all the shows that like, yeah, they always are. It was Gilligan's Island. Gilligan's Island. Oh my God. They'd be running after something or running from something, and then all of a sudden they look and they were sinking and was like, it was Gilligan's Island. Gilligan's Island, oh my God. They'd be running after something or running from something.

And then all of a sudden they look and they were sinking and it was like, no, quicksand. Don't move, don't make any quick moves. If you struggle, you'll go down faster. And I remember even in class, our teacher talking to us about how to survive quicksand. You swim, you don't struggle, you swim. Okay, next time I'm in quicksand, I'll remember that.

Oh my God, quicksand. I have the same memories as you. We are so united. We have so much in common. It's true. I watched the Gilligan's Island. When you said it, I had like Gilligan and Skipper in the quicksand, right? Now where things converged in a much deeper level is you like me, like the Barbara Eden in I Dream a Genie.

We do. You were feeling the same thing I was. I was. I love that Barbara Eden. Anyway, so let's go on to the next thing. Metta is also making some big staffing changes, replacing President of Global Affairs, Nick Clegg, the handsome British man with Clegg's deputy and the company's most prominent Republican, Joel Kaplan,

best friend to Brett Kavanaugh. Kaplan, a former advisor to George W. Bush, sparked drama at the Facebook in 2018. I remember getting frantic calls from Sheryl Sandberg when he attended his friend Brett Kavanaugh's Senate hearing. Interestingly, Nick Clegg in his statement said something that I thought, I need to find him and ask him because several people were close to him said, look at that sentence, Kara. He said, clearly Kaplan is the right person for the right job at the right time. He kept saying the word right, which everyone thinks it was because Nick is too liberal

and Kaplan is one of the people who presided over removing content moderation stuff, being much more very friendly to conservatives in a way that was disturbing to people internally. All kinds of manner of nonsense that a lot of people had been pushing, that people like Clegg had in fact been pushing against internally. So what do you think has happened here? They just are picking the guy who Trump likes better. It seems like that's it. That's the game. Do you know when Nick joined Facebook or when he joined Metta?

A while ago and then Sheryl left and he got Sheryl's job, I guess, in a weird way. I forget, but he was this gallant British, well-spoken guy. He had a mixed bag of a reputation in Britain, to be honest. But yeah, he's been the one who's been the forward leaning person. I want to preface my comment with the following, and that is Nick Clegg is the new or was the new Sheryl Sandberg and that is he was the heat shield, he was the airbrush over a company that has done more damage and hurt more of our young people while making more money than

probably any company in history. He has not served the Commonwealth well as he has done an outstanding job of delay and obfuscation and, you know, grabbed a baton from Sheryl Sandberg and figured out a way to stave off much-needed regulation and pretend that they're concerned and call for regulation and manage to ensure that Facebook continues to create rage and make our discourse more coarse and make 14 and 15-year-old girls much more likely to engage in self harm. So he has not done the United States of the world any favors.

Having said that, what's really dangerous about Nick Clegg and Facebook in general or Metta is that he is really fucking smart. And that is, and I think about the five or six years where he got this big jobs, Facebook stock is up tripled. I bet he's made somewhere between $1 and $300 million, and this is exactly the right time for him to leave. He's made a shit ton of money.

It's a new administration. He doesn't want to do this work, yeah. He doesn't want to hang out and be nice to Republicans. They're bringing in someone who is the Republican version of him. He's got his money. He's probably going gonna hold onto the stock and probably, I wouldn't be surprised if he announces

that he's moving to Malta or the Isle of Skye or to Florida or Texas to recognize the capital gain and the options he sits on. He's a very bright guy. He did a great job in the eyes of meta shareholders and he's smart to leave now. The stock has run up enormously. He's made a ton of money.

The environment has shifted to the right. So peace be with you, and pray there is no heaven or hell, boss. Well, this guy Kaplan, he's the one most linked to discouraging, to shield right-wingers from content moderation efforts around misinformation and hate speech. He really is the guy who's done this. If there's one person- I think of him as the guy sitting behind a cabinet. Yes, he did. That was, oh my God, when that happened,

I remember they were like, what in the actual fuck because I think his wife was very good friends with his wife. That's what I recall at the time. But he was a very good friend. And a lot of people, one of the top Facebook people was like, why couldn't he just be,

he was there to be supportive of his friend, I think. And of course, he can't do that as the main lobbyist of Facebook in Washington. And so they were like, why can't he just go in a quiet room and pat him on the back and say, you get out there, Brad, and start yelling about whatever you want to yell about. But he didn't, he was physically behind him and it was a crisis at Facebook. Now, as usual, the Overton window has shifted rather drastically,

and this guy's in charge. This guy has a very MAGA-friendly approach, let's just say. And I'm saying that in a, that's a polite way of saying it. They're smart, smart thing to do. And so this is what he'll do. And he's had an increasing influence on Zuckerberg, very smart guy. I would say of all the people that when I hear about him is not positive internally, somewhat of a, he runs over things. He's not Nick Clegg in that regard.

And he's very Trump friendly in a way and has moved further to the right, that's for sure. And so that's just what it is. Mark Zuckerberg is always, you know, he's always looking for his own hide, always. There's never a moment where Mark Zuckerberg is not concerned with his own well-being. This is what he's done. I think he was tired of getting pilloried by Congress. He doesn't want to go to one of those meetings again. Of course, they walk right into it this week with they're deleting a number of its AI-generated

Facebook and Instagram accounts after a backlash. One exchange of Metabot said that it perpetuates harm. Another acknowledged the use of cult leaders tactics. Instagram users also reported they were not able to block, restrict, report the AI characters. Floating this media with these bots is dangerous. Of course, they don't give a fuck. They don't give a flying fuck. But they were trying to drive engagement doing it. And that's what they're going to do. Let me just say with this appointment, nothing's changed with Mark Zuckerberg. He's the same person.

He's a brilliant, arguably the most brilliant business man in the last 20 years, totally shareholder driven, and it's taken a huge toll on society, whether it's incumbent political parties being consistently booted out, which you could argue some of that is good, but I would argue some of it. The coarsening of our discourse globally, the thing that scares me the most about AI, in addition to loneliness and convincing young men they can have a reasonable facsimile of life on a screen with an algorithm, is that you have an economy or you have a society now

where the primary arbiters of expertise and knowledge are LLMs that are crawling the online world, which is increasingly coarse, ugly, and prone to misinformation because it drives shareholder value. And all you need to do, and one of the reasons I decided to come down and do this podcast in person is, and it's sort of sad. I find people in general are just lovely. Whenever I go out into the wild of the world, people are just so nice, so thoughtful. I mean, occasionally someone cuts you off in traffic or whatever, or whatever it might be.

But in general, I'm looking at this handsome kid with a beard in the control room, and I think he just looks like a nice man, and he's nice, and it's nice to see him. And if I had him on zoom or I just wouldn't, I don't feel the same level of connection with people. And unfortunately, LLMs aren't crawling that they're crawling a world of coarseness, misinformation and rage as brought to you by the algorithms,

ad alphabet and meta. And it is, it has done tremendous damage to our society. And they don't want to take responsibility for it. He's the most dangerous person in the world who doesn't even know it, who doesn't think he is and he feels mad when you question him. And so this is a big fuck you to everybody, this move. I just is. That's what it is. And he doesn't care anymore.

Now he wants to wear his chains and his hairstyle, and he wants to upload fun bags video he puts up there, whatever. I just, he's whatever. Good luck, Mark. You've Do jujitsu. But I mean, going back to the inauguration, if you don't believe we've gone full kleptocracy, Bezos, Bezos, Satya Nadella, Cook, all these people,

all of them are donating a million dollars plus to Trump's inauguration. You don't think this is a fucking kleptocracy? No, it's like, it's literally like, if you've ever been to an Italian wedding where people walk up to the mobster's daughter and put money in this little sack she has on her arm, that's like, this is like the wedding I went to.

What I don't get is, and again, I have a bias here, but I think one of them would garner so much affection if they just said, I'm not gonna be a part of this. Fuck you. I don't, I'm sorry, folks. I'm not gonna be a part of this pay to play. And instead they've all done the math and they're smarter than me.

And they've said, no, just hold your nose, give a million bucks and say that he's matured or he seems calmer now. It's so— It's grotesque. They really are. That's when I saw the picture of Musk at the New Year's. I was like, you're the richest man in the world and this is what you're—wearing like an ill-fitting richest man in the world and this is what you're wearing, like an ill-fitting tuxedo and you're doing YMCA with Trump at a tacky, tacky. I'm sorry to be an elite, but that is a fucking tacky place.

I'm going to start offering classes on how to have a midlife crisis. Can I just ask you, if you were the richest man, what would your New Year's be? I literally hire Beyonce. What would my New Year's be? I don't know. It'd be what it is. I'm either in South Africa about to go on a safari with my kids and my nephews and nieces or in Cape Town,

or I'm in St. Barts with ridiculously hot people who, you know, want to give me breath lessons. Breath lessons. That's how you roll. What is the craziest thing you'd buy on New Year's? I would buy Beyonce or whatever and Taylor Swift together. I give them an untold amount of money. This is what you do.

100 percent. This is your fun. Are you kidding me? You're singing YMCA next to Steve Bannon? Yes, exactly. I don't think he was invited, but I'd rather be with Steve Bannon, honestly. exactly. And one of the things, I don't think he was invited, but one of the, which I'd rather be with Steve Bannon, honestly, I hate to say that. And you could also do what guess who, Mackenzie Bezos is doing, which is give away billions and billions and billions to people to help them.

Oh, but her gifts are concerning. Concerning. Fuck you. Yeah, that makes sense. Fuck you. Oh, God, I would totally hire Beyonce. That's what I would do. I think I would. I would. I swear, I don. Fuck you. Oh, God. I would totally hire Beyonce. That's what I would do.

I think I would. I would. I swear. I don't know what else I'd do. I'd hire Emily Radikowski from Breitwerk. No, that's wrong. That's wrong. You take that back.

That's wrong. Anyway, Marc, you really ceased to not surprise us. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for Pivot comes from DeleteMe. The personal data that you enter online every day, it might be worth more than you think. Data brokers can make a profit off of selling it,

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Now at a special discount for our listeners. Today you can get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash pivot and use the promo code pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash pivot code pivot. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. There's so many. Would you like to go first or I can?

You go first, Kara. I'm going to do a couple of different things because first of all, TV show, No Good Deed, Lisa Kudrow and Ray Romano and this amazing cast. I can't name them all. I watch a lot of these things on Netflix. Ray Romano or Ray Romano? Ray Romano. He's amazing.

He's great. He's great. Oh my God. This was the most delightful series. Often I watch stuff on Netflix and it kind of falls apart in a way. This does not. It's so incredibly funny and incredibly dark. Lisa Kudrow is a national friggin treasure. Like Gene Smart, same thing. National treasure. But everybody in, same thing, national treasure. But everybody in this is great.

There's a guy who, I don't even know who he is, he plays a real estate agent who's delightful. It's about a couple selling their house in Glessand, a very lovely house that everybody wants and all the various people that are trying to buy it. And it is such a pleasure to watch. We binge watched it. So, so, so good, like really good. And the second one was Demi Moore's speech. I think you noted it, Scott, at the Golden Globes.

What a great speech. I thought that was really, she could have gone off in lots of directions. She's won her first award ever. And she talked about the judgmentalness of Hollywood, which isn't new to anybody. But I thought she did in a way that didn't seem scolding or tisking or high-handed or self-righteous. I thought she did a very honest speech about calling her

the popcorn actress and had never, I thought it was a very genuine speech from her and I really appreciated it. I thought Nikki Glaser did a great job by the way in that. Then my wins, it's all women, Mackenzie Bezos, once again, she shows them how it's fucking done, along with the last person, which is, I think it's Keir Starmer, who's head of Britain. Musk is putting out all kinds of information across Europe, really dangerous stuff, including about these weird grooming teams or whatever, it's all nonsense. And Keir Starmer did a speech that you should listen. I put it up several different places that was so good and so smart. I'm not sure it'll work because I think Musk's toxic nonsense works really well, unfortunately.

But boy, did he, if you're talking about all these people giving a million dollars to people, I would say this speech was exactly right. He handled it really well. And putting yourself in the crosshairs of the mosque is not a great place to be these days. So that is again my win. And my fail is the opposite side of this. All these people who continue to be as craven and grasping and desperate when they own the world. And it's really a disappointment to see them doing it. I know why they're doing it.

I get their ridiculous, I've heard their explanations because I've talked to a number of them. But honestly, you're really just terrible people. You're just, you have no backbone whatsoever. And I get why you're doing it, but I don't really care. I don't really care. I have no time for you. Anyway, your turn, Scott.

So my fail is, I don't know him well, but I've had, I think I had drinks or dinner with him, a guy in London named Sriram Krishnan from Andreessen Horowitz. Oh yeah, I know him well. Do you? Yes, I do. And I've, I'm already worried about this.

I found him to be thoughtful and insightful and understood technology. And he's 39 and he was appointed to this AI committee and immediately some of the MAGA folks came out with I thought was just some pretty vile shit about. That was vile. That, oh, they're indentured servants taking U.S. jobs. And just a little bit about. He's an immigrant, just for people who don't know. He's a long-time technology person around Silicon Valley.

I'm not as enamored with his skills, but he's a lovely guy. I was very impressed with him. And I merely thought, okay, this guy's totally out of place in this administration because he's credentialed and smart and qualified, which makes him an anomaly here. However, what was kind of on point for this administration was the immediate, ridiculous, racist, xenophobic bullshit that came out. And just a quick primer on Indian Americans and Indian immigrants, it would be hard to think of a substance that has created

more economic value and ultimately more American jobs, more prosperity for Americans than people from India who have immigrated to America. On average, they make twice what Americans do, and they're half as likely to need government resources. They're twice as likely to get bachelor's degrees. I see this firsthand at NYU, and I don't know how to do this

without doing identity politics, but they're just so fucking impressive. We get the most impressive people from India or many of them decide to come be academics. 100%. If America were a sports team and we had access to the best farm team in the world, and for some reason they kept wanting to come play for us,

and then we are so fucking stupid, we decide to disparage them? This is arguably, if immigration is the secret sauce of America, the secret of our secret sauce is Indian Americans. And this is just, I understand people's concerns about immigration policy. It has not been handled well.

There are real concerns, valid concerns about a nation without borders. I get it. India and immigrants from India have been a gift to America and Americans. And this administration shows its worst side and arguably it's best side. Kudos to the AI people that said,

we should have this guy involved. And then immediately the MAGA crew goes and starts saying that they're indentured servants coming here against their will and taking American jobs, they're creating American jobs, folks. They're making you richer. They're taxing our social services less and paying more taxes on average than Americans. Well, Scott, they're racists. They're racists. I don't know what to say. It was just racism, like incredible. My issue with Sriram is he kisses up to people. Just like I was just saying with the previous week, he does a lot of kissing up to people.

Well, he's 39 and he's trying to make a good living. I was kissing a lot of ass when I was 39, not doing as much breath work, but I was kissing a lot of ass. I understand. Anyways, I actually sent him a text, I don't know him well, and I'm saying, I'm just so sorry on behalf of America

that you would have to endure this bullshit. Anyway, my win, because I don't think we had a chance to talk about it, is the life of James Earl Carter. Oh, wow. Why didn't we say something? Yes, you're right. Well, we've been out of commission for a couple of weeks while you hang out with ex-wives and I hang out with the big five in Cape Town or just outside of Cape Town. But I'm struggling, I'm writing this book on masculinity

and people constantly ask me, what are great role models for masculinity? And you first have to think about, well, what does masculinity mean? It's a social construct anyways, but I think James Earl Carter is a really nice role model for young men. So born to a very middle-class family,

decided to join the Navy and serve his country, where he went on to get a graduate. He was a submariner, then went on to do graduate work in nuclear physics, became an entrepreneur, took over a peanut farm that was sort of meddling, turned it into a robust economic enterprise, married for 77 years. Seventy-seven years. 77 years, 77 years, and served his country in a variety of capacities, including running as kind of an outsider for governor of Georgia, successful presidential election on the heels of the impeachment of Nixon and then kind of the overhang on Gerald Ford, kicked out

office for a variety of reasons, some his fault, some not his fault, and really went on to identify and give it, really set an example for losing presidency after one term in many ways is kind of the ultimate flex fail. And that is, okay, you made it to presidency, but it's always stained by the fact that people decided to kick you out after one term. But what I think he taught, or the role model I take from him, is that after what must have

been the most crushing disappointment for a career that had only been upward, he went on to redefine the post-presidency. And while I actually think George W. has done a nice job as a post-president, I think Clinton's been a little bit haunted and has been too focused on money, although I think the world of him. Carter was next seen building houses for poor people with his wife. For Habitat for Humanity. That's what he decided to do.

And also continued to teach, I believe well into his nineties, Sunday school. Yep, and peace. He did a lot of peace initiatives throughout. A Nobel Prize winner. Just such a great guy. Such, and peace. He did a lot of peace initiatives throughout. A Nobel Prize winner. Just such a great guy. Such a great guy. And the speech, I went back and looked at some of his speeches.

He had this incredibly prescient speech that was somewhat chilling. And in it he said, I liked him because he occasionally gave America a talking to, as opposed to saying, you know, American, a great American. He occasionally said, no, you got this wrong. And one of those talks, he said something really powerful and was so well ahead of his time. And that is he said that Americans are no longer evaluated based on what they do, but what they own.

And that he saw the idolatry of money coming down the pike. And he was, because things were different then. It used to be, if you were, you know, if you were a good athlete, a nice man, strong, kind, in the army, in the Navy, you know, a cop, a fireman, interesting, kind, went to church, faithful. Those were, those were the assets of character. And now at the end of the day, you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want, as long as you have money.

And money has replaced character. And he saw that coming. He was actually pretty well ahead of his time in terms of as long as you have money. And money has replaced character, and he saw that coming. He was actually pretty well ahead of his time in terms of understanding human nature. Good guy. Good man. And married for 77 years. And the reason why I think his passing is getting

so much attention is not only because of him, but specifically the contrast of one president leaving and one president reentering the White House. Oh, that's really interesting. See, that's what I think our country loves Jimmy Carter in a way they don't realize deep in its heart. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of, like, he resonates. By the way, I would recommend,

just for people that don't know, there's a really great CNN documentary called Jimmy Carter Rock and Roll President, and it's all about his music, how he used the Allman Brothers and Willie Nelson. And he affiliated with them, even though there was criticism around their weed smoking and things like that at the time, which was shocking at the time.

But it's a wonderful way to listen to music and learn about the heart of this man. I think you would love it, Scott. It's called Rock and Roll President. And I like it, I'll look for it. Yeah. Yeah, after Rock and Roll President. I like it, I'll look for it. Yeah. Yeah, after I see Wicked. Ha, with me.

You see, and also, my other Wink Hara, and I said this to the other guy on the phone, I don't know what happened over the holidays. You seem very happy and optimistic. I think that's nice. I'm happy for you. That's because I'm doing my breath work at the Washington Post.

That's why. Yeah, that. Fuck you, Jeff. No, Jeff, let me help you. Anyway, I love that. I love Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter is the best, truly the best. Really the best of us, right?

I mean. 100%, nice man. 100%. Great love affair. Yeah. Great publisher. Roslyn, I love that Roslyn too. I was like, I was just, I went to the White House at Christmas. I went to see, because I'm not getting in there for a couple more years,

although I have been in the Trump White House. I saw the Roslyn Carter portrait. All the portraits of the First Ladies are lovely actually. But I remember staring at hers for a while. I just think she was so quiet and so under appreciated as a First Lady. I think she had such dignity and honor and kindness that she exuded. This portrait in the White House really exudes it. Everyone looks at Michelle Obama because it's such a beautiful portrait.

But I just love that Rosalynn Carter. I did set and I explained it to Clara who she was. All right, Scott, I don't want to keep you from your breath work and everything else you're doing. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. Our first one for 2025.

I think it was a very good one and I missed you. I missed you. I missed you. I said that to you. I called him and told him that. We'll be back on Friday with more with our special guest. We have a new way we're going to be doing some things around here, but we have a special guest, Bill Maher. We're going to do it in a special new way and we're going to argue all over the place, which will be really fun.

I'm excited for 2025. I'm excited to be back with Scott and I'm so excited for our listeners. I hope you enjoy the show and I hope you enjoy them all year. Scott, please read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Neim and Zoey Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertotte engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Silverio, Dan Shulan, and Kate Gallagher.

Nishak Kherwa is Vox Media's Executive Producer of Audio. Make sure you subscribe to this show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Submariner, Sunday school teacher, married for 77 years. Rest in peace, James Earl Carter.