Pivot - Lyft and Uber consider franchising, Apple becomes the first $2 trillion company and a listener mail question about social distancing with Aminatou Sow

Episode Date: August 21, 2020

Kara is joined by author and podcast host Aminatou Sow to talk about more trouble for ride-share companies in California. They also discuss Apple becoming the first company valued at $2 trillion. In listener mail, we get a question about navigating the challenges of social distancing during the pandemic. Plus Aminatou gets challenged to fill Trump's shadow cabinet ahead of the RNC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London and beyond and see for yourself how traveling for business can always be a pleasure. Hi, everyone. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. Scott is still in Nantucket.

In his absence, I'm joined by my friend, Amina Tussauds. She is the author of Big Friendship, How We Keep One Another Close, and the co-host of the podcast, Call Your Girlfriend. We have a lot to talk about. Amina, welcome back to the show. Hi, Cara. How's it going? How are you doing? Good.

It's a busy week. I have a busy week. There's a lot going on. I dropped Louie off at college, which went well. And I know. Can you believe it? He's so old now. I mean, that means we're older.

I don't like this. He is with you now in New York. So you're going to take care of him once you can visit him. But you can drop things off. They have him quarantined in the dorm. I will drop things off. I'll take him to party. No, no, no party. Just the two of us. Dinner parties, Kara. Dinner parties. No parties. No people. No, no. We want NYU to work out as opposed to all the other colleges.

Fair enough. fair enough. Over the weekend, a lot of colleges closed down, which was, you know, kind of, when you saw the pictures, you could see why. I mean, I saw a really good TikTok from these two boys who were essentially saying that if they saw anyone partying, they would snitch on them. And it made me really happy. I was like, yes, this is what snitch culture is for. It is for a global pandemic. Please tell everyone and bust up all of the parties. This is not okay. Yeah. Well, he's having a good time. I left him a ton of food in his room and his cooking and I left him his pots and pans. So he's very happy. Does everyone on the show know that Louis is literally like the best cook in the world? He is. He is. I dropped a lot of dimes at like Russo's and all this,

all these, and Citadel to get him, to make him. Anyway, he was, he's very happy. Let's go a couple of things. The post office updates, the postmaster general, Louis DeJoy, I hate that he has a name like my son, is halting the changes the post office made in response to the outcry from the public. But of course, he's not rolling back any of the changes. Of course, he could say it now that he's wrecked everything. So what do you expect to happen next? He's coming to Congress. Obviously, this is, you know, they're hoping it's another awful thing they did that's just going to go downstream with the next awful thing they do, like backing QAnon. So what do you think about that? I mean, I find it fascinating that, you know, it takes this amount of public outcry for the Postmaster General basically to say,

oh, I guess this kind of looks bad. So in the interest of it not looking as nefarious as it is, I'm going to just put it on pause. It's just so nefarious it's just so nefarious it's so nefarious but also you know the thing that really it's just like management failure from the top when you look at it where you're like okay you are literally carrying out your bosses um you're carrying out your bosses like orders but now that you are called into accountability and you have to explain yourself your boss is nowhere to defend you like no one is there to have your back and you are accountable to Congress and you're accountable to the American people. And he looks like a coward now. And except they've already done the damage.

I know they've already done it. They're going to keep doing it secretly. And the, you know, it's the thing that Mary Trump was talking about. The chaos really is the point. And so they unleash the chaos and you can't put that gen chaos really is the point. And so they unleash the chaos and you can't put that genie back in the bottle. And now there is already doubt sewn into whether we are going to have a fair election in November. So this, you know, I was like, don't do it from the beginning. And we're not here as a country. But that's the whole point is to make a mess and then hope that you can pick it up. Secondly, Airbnb has filed a public, but it was just a surprise.

So it looks like that's a good piece of news. I know, that's a good piece of news. I was excited for them. It felt like, you know, COVID was going to really scuttle that for a long time. So, you know, hopefully this is a good thing. How do you feel about it? I think it's good.

I have a little bit of insight. I think their business was picking up more than people realize because people are going near their houses, right? They're renting longer term. So they actually have, their business is rebounding because people either want to get out of the city or go to a place or have other places to go. And so they have a lot of localized thing in this country and other places. There's not a lot of travel elsewhere. Like I'm not going to, you know, wherever Oregon and renting something, but people nearby their areas are growing rather significantly. I mean,

I think that this is a thing that they did really smartly is that they really redefined what travel was, you know, and instead of saying, Oh, you have to go to Europe for three months or get on a plane and go far, you know, explore, explore travel near you. Anecdotally, I've been getting a lot of their marketing emails. And so some of them are geared towards that, but they're also doing this new anti-discrimination push, which I really wonder what that's about as someone who, you know, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I've been discriminated on, on Airbnb multiple times. Yes. That was a big issue. I mean, it is a persistent issue. So it was just interesting to get that email this week,

you know, and then like on the heels of the IPO is like, yes, please solve the discriminatory issues on your platform. That'll be better for everyone, including you. Yes, 100%. All right. Speaking of things that were good news, the Democratic Convention, National Convention is pretty good. It's good TV. I was really surprised. I'm voting for Kerry Washington. You're not voting for Eva Longoria? Wow. Wow. No, she was good too. I thought that was ridiculous. I was like, come on. It was a host. That's all. And they're fine. And they're very political. The hosts have been great.

It's good. It keeps it moving. It keeps it moving. great. It's good. It keeps it moving. Like it keeps it moving. I have to say, this is the way to do a convention, not from the roll call to like the speeches are short and sweet and to the point. And then you got Barack Obama is the best speaker ever, the best speech he's ever given. You know, it was really strong and everything looked different. It felt like, I don't know. What do you think? You're talking to someone who was like very negative about this whole enterprise from the start. I have to say that my favorite part of the convention i've been watching every night my favorite part of the convention has been the roll call um because uh america is so big and beautiful you know it's so nice to see that every single state is so quirky and weird in its own way and

everyone is doubling down on the weirdness and the quirkiness of where they're from yeah i hope they do the roll call like this forever and ever and ever um you know like the production values could be higher there was a great tweet there was a great tweet cara about why um you know it's like someone was like a why uh this is why ellen has to yell at people they were like yeah uh fix this they were like who's producing this this is why ellen has to yell i like i think they're doing it on purpose. I like the quirky. Listen, I think it's quirky and it's fine. The thing that is like very.

It's a telethon kind of vibe. It is like a telethon, which I appreciate. Another thing I think that is like very true and fair is that this convention is very much not geared towards young voters, which I think is a very practical and good choice from the Biden campaign, because that is not the electorate that is going to send them over the top. They have done the math of that. So whenever I see people just complaining so much about, you know, like, it's like, where are the young people? Where are the this? Where are the that? It's like, this is not for you. It's not for us. They pulled out Billie Eilish. I know, but it is not for, it's not they pulled out billy eilish they pulled out i know but it is not for um by and large this is not a thing to convince us and also sometimes the production value being so good also like obfuscates the message like the the violence against women's act and domestic

violence um peace the other night was very very very good like that was good like that is an incredible contribution joe biden has made to our politics but also you know the violence against women's act was literally rolled up into the crime bill the one thing joe biden doesn't like to talk about and also how can you have a montage of all the women that joe biden has been you know politically uh consequential with and not mention anita hill so it's things like that where you're like okay yeah i see what you're doing you're putting a band-aid on the whole thing it looks nice i. I can't put any of the hell up there. Listen, I am very emotional about it. No, I'm telling you that I know

what the point of the convention is. I think that it is doing it well. It is also a point of frustration because you're like, oh, this is how we win every time. It's not meant to be all of good Biden. It's his greatest hits, really. Of course. And it's an infomercial.

It's like by, you know, I'm not going to say MyPillow because that lunatic. I know, that was a really good ad before that man came out as a Trump supporter. Well, I like the one with the paste that goes on everything and keeps everything waterproof. I can't remember, Flex Seal. But nonetheless, I thought it was a very good infomercial.

And I think the hokiness was the little quirkiness that it didn't go to the right thing that Nancy Pelosi started speaking before it started. I thought Kerry Washington handled it beautifully, you know, and you have a feeling, you know, that what they're doing is they're meeting Trump where he is. She's known for scandal right now, even though she's a great actress and lots of things, but she, people are like political, right? You know what I mean? Like they're sort of meeting, they're sort of using a lot of Trump style kind of stuff, but with a better narrative. I'm really eager to see next week. Listen, I think the narrative is great. I love, you know, like showcasing America's diversity has been, it was really moving to see that, you know, and to be

like, yes, like this is why we are uh we are the big tent party look at look at how i was counting i was counting look at everyone you know it's like also even you know the the woman who nominated biden is literally and you know like uh you know she's she's a working worker neck yeah i'm i'm interested to see the rnc i think that will be very different give me before we get to big stories what is the prediction besides like possibly having the cop that oh the rnc there was a joke that they'd have the cop that killed who killed oh it's gonna be it's gonna be the hunter it's gonna be the hunter biden show they're literally they're gonna be like you know like because hunter biden ukraine no are you kidding me this is the kind of like quirky stuff they love to do that's going to be there there's's going to be there. There's definitely going to be like a random, very Joe the Plumber

kind of person. Probably Scott Baio. Probably Melania is going to plagiarize Michelle Obama's speech word for word for word. Yeah. It's going to be a lot of it's going to be very strange.

It's going to be very strange. I'm into watching it. What do you think? Who do you think's the host tonight? It's got to be Oprah, right? Who's the host tonight? That would be good. That would be good. I did not look it up, but I'm sure it's going to be a superstar.

Right? They had Jennifer Hudson. They're kind of like, I'm trying to think, who could they get that's kind of a topper? If they got Oprah, I would be excited. If they got Beyonce,

I would be over the top. Beyonce would never do it. Come on. She would absolutely never do it. Beyonce would be the one that is nominated for president, obviously. I don't know who it's going to be. I wonder who the host is. I think it's got to be Oprah. You think so?

Okay, we'll see. We'll see. Yes, I feel like that is the case. We'll see. That'll be nice. In any case, let us get to big stories. Uber and Lyft are moving to a franchise model amidst gig worker issues as companies grapple with how to work around classifying their drivers and employees.

Rideshare Services are considering licensing their brand to fleets around California. Uber has already used this type of model in Germany and Spain. I interviewed Dara Khosrowshahi yesterday, and we got into it about that issue. He's going to close down in California, I think today, depending on what the judge says, and said a lot of stuff about that it just doesn't work and the money is going to cost too much. There's not going to be enough workers. And then we had a representative of gig workers who thought it was all bullshit, this third way of employment. So what do you think? We had Vanessa from Gig Workers Collective, Vanessa Bain.

Well, don't you think, I'm like, is this just me or is this just a return to taxi style monopoly? Yeah. Is that what they're proposing? Which is very, I'm like, oh, this is hilarious. Well, they have AB5 that they don't want to follow. And so they have Prop 2 they're waiting for that would sort of gut it in a lot of ways. And so, I mean, I think the issue is

your business don't work. And I think that's the point I was making to him yesterday is that your business is not sustainable if you have to pay for people. Now, he's been pushing this idea of this third way, that it's not an employee, not an independent contractor, but an independent contractor, essentially with certain rights.

Vanessa made the salient point that people already have employment rights. Why not just extend them to these people? And then maybe have a number that you worked more than 20 hours a week. You know, if it's people that just do five or 10 hours, that's different, obviously. Right. I mean, the thing with Uber too, like with Uber specifically in this arrangement, is that they were already kind of operating this in like, you know, pseudo franchises for the black car services.

Right. And also they're literally reinstating a system that they were purporting to disrupt. So this is just as bad for the drivers. What do you imagine is going to happen here? What do you think is, what has to happen with this, with these companies? Because this whole concept of gig workers is really, I mean, most people are going to be gig workers. There has to be, I'm not saying a third way, but do we have to radically rethink what an employee is overall and then use some of the right things? I mean, do we have to rethink what an employee is or just treat employees well? I'm like,

employees are employees are employees i just i find it like you're on the nest of them yeah i find it very grating that these companies are you know acting like a gig work one is this like completely new category of work and that because it's gig work they don't deserve rights i think that what you are going to see is more labor organizing around this and you i think that the drivers and the labor organizers are who are going to push these companies to change because it's just not tenable. And truly, it's not fair. And you're just seeing that the company itself has no imagination. They're literally bringing back a system that they're like, this is a system we're disrupting.

And all of this is to squeeze more labor and money out of workers. It's like Uber, like you would do better to treat your workers well. Well, so what do you, what do you mean is going to happen here? If, if, if prop 22 passes, it's at odds with the law. So what do you have, what has to happen? Just, just treat them as employees if they work a certain number of hours. I mean, treat them as employees, like figure out the worker classification for sure. Because what this is looking like to me is a pretty desperate gamble. And, you know, I'm like gambling. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

And long term, this does not feel like a winning proposition for the company itself. So I don't understand why they are, you know, using this as a band-aid. This is bad. Yeah. So what do you, you know, you're someone who band-aid. This is bad. Yeah. So what do you, you know, you're someone who has, a lot of people who work for Uber are people who are, lots of different kinds of people work for Uber. And so they have, does this help or hurt workers to have this, to have this idea of more workers' rights in terms of extending it to everybody? And what can we do

on the federal level? It's got to be universal health care. That, I think, is one of the biggest showing to this. Other rights, including unemployment insurance. Vanessa was talking about inability to collect her AOR $10,000. 100%. We need to give people health care. We need to figure out retirement and insurance. Because, Cara, the whole way that the companies, you know, the companies lure people to drive

for them is telling them that it'll make them financially secure. And all you're doing is, is, like, increasing the precarity that they're in. But truly, the drivers are, the drivers are the force of the whole thing. There is no company without them. So, I always struggle with this because... Yeah, you've been an independent contractor. Yeah, I've been an independent contractor for... Talk a little bit about that. And you also have visa. You're from...

I'm a refugee. I'm like a full refugee, independent contractor, had to figure out a green card. This country is a nightmare for anyone who wants to work for themselves. Explain it to people who don't understand what the difficulties you go through. Because I think it gets so sucked up into partisan.

Talk about the, you know, being an independent contractor and the difficulty of doing that and getting the rights you deserve. Right. So being an independent contractor for me, I will say, has been like generally a net positive because I, yeah, it's everything they tell you about the gig economy. It's like you're flexible. You get to be your own boss. You get to set your own. Which Dara was pushing. Yeah. Which I think is, like, is great. And honestly, like, something that, you know, more conservative people should definitely push for. I was like, this is the pull yourself by your pants shit that you guys are preaching about all the time. We love it.

Yeah. But the truth is that also, like, being responsible for your overhead in this way is, I think, like, really stifles entrepreneurship. way is I think like really stifles entrepreneurship because we live in a country that does not have a solid like safety does not have a solid like safety net like I you know like I had cancer for two years and was not able to work and the only like truly the only privilege I had is that I had like a pretty healthy savings account but it is nuts to have to live through your savings because, you know, like we don't have good programs for that. Or also, you know, like I, my health insurance at this point costs thousands of dollars a month, like between health insurance and the drugs I have to take hanging on by a thread. But I'm also very much like, I don't have kids. They

don't have responsibilities. So I can figure it out. But at scale in this country, this, it's not normal. It is truly not normal to want to just like make a living and to be a little more creative and how you do that and not want to participate in corporate America and not have any of these structures. So much of retirement, healthcare, everything is tied to like corporate employment here in a way that is going and that is going in a way that, and especially after this pandemic, people are not going to be hiring people back, you know, and people are going to be working from home and people are going to be gig workers more and more and more. I mean, it's just, I think most people feel like that's the way of the future. I think it's the way of the future. I think that, you know, for a lot of like people who are, you know, like a little bit younger, um, we can figure it out a bit more because you can have like one foot into, you know, like doing corporate work and then come out and consult and do the like back and forth. And if you want to leave, you want to leave. But this country is very discriminatory

towards older people. So that is not like an opportunity that a lot of people have. But I do think that this model of work is the future for so many people, whether you work at a fancy tech company or you don't. And so for that alone, I think that the federal government really needs to get involved in regulating this. But all of the other issues that we have, like childcare, healthcare, like whatever, all of that needs to get solved in order for people to just be able to contribute at work and to not feel like they are hanging on paycheck to paycheck. That was the point of Elizabeth Warren, who was just such a troller last night. I love the whole thing. She was the best.

She had Joe in the corner, BLM in the blocks. She was like, I was like, that lady just cracks me up. All of it is true, right? I think that there is a model in which these companies can get rich and still not treat people like awful. You know, we need to figure that out, especially if you are saying that the people are the power of your company. Like, billionaires need workers. Workers don't need billionaires. So figure it out. And beyond that, I think a lot of parents who are of means and who had child care, who had adequate child care and had the ability to do that now. Like I had someone's like, this is really hard having your kid at home without child care. I was like, welcome to everybody else. Like I think for people, whether they go back to it once they get their full-time child care or whatever, I think everyone understands the necessity of child care. That was to me the most important thing.

Last question on this and then we'll go to a break what do you uh dara did talk about the idea of uh of doing this and it happening and having this thing happening today which is closing down do you think consumers are gonna he's hoping that there's a hue and cry that we need our cheap ubers uh i don't think it's gonna happen quite that way. I think people are going to realize what this business model really means is they've been getting a free ride forever. I don't think it's going to happen that way. I'm literally one of the people who bought a car in the pandemic. You know what I mean? There is a growing trend of people who are going to buy cars.

And yeah, I was like, if the alternative is to figure out public transportation or to own your own transportation, I'm like, I will do either of those things before, like, I will do ride sharing again, you know? And I think that that's something that's worth considering. But truly, it just makes it hard if you are a consumer who is even a little bit conscious of the choices that you make to support them as a company. And they're the ones that make it hard for you. Right. And such as Uber, it's Lyft and Instacart. Yeah, all of them. And the problem is that that convenience is what we really do need in the pandemic, but you can't turn regular people into frontline workers and not pay them like their jobs matter. So. 100%. That's as%, that's as Nicole Hannah-Jones says,

they are sacrificial workers. Yeah, it's awful. I will say that over and over again. I thought it was one of the most important things. All right, Aminatou, let's take a quick break and come back to talk about Apple becoming the world's first $2 trillion company and a listener mail question

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The leadership team founded the company with a commitment to an ethical approach that puts humanity first. To learn more, visit anthropic.com slash Claude. That's anthropic.com slash Claude. And we're back. Apple was the first company to become a $1 trillion company back in 2018. And now two years later is the first company valued at $2 trillion. A lot of people thought Amazon would get there first. As recently as mid-March, Apple's value was under $1 trillion, but quickly climbed back in recent weeks.

Despite growing calls from Congress to examine the monopoly power of big tech companies, Facebook, Google, Amazon have grown even more powerful during the pandemic, along with Target and Walmart, by the way. They're doing rather well. All the big companies are doing well. What do you think about this $2 trillion situation? I mean, Apple adding a trillion in value over the past, I guess, like 20 weeks, 21 weeks is, to me, it's concerning when you consider that the backdrop is that the global economy is shrinking faster than it ever has before. So I'm like, that concerns me. That really, really, really concerns me. It concerns me that we are, you know, inequality is just like growing leaps and bounds

and rich people are just getting richer and richer and richer you know i just i if apple were a country i think at this point it would be like the eighth like richest country do we really need that do we need that i'm not sure that we need what do we do about that though because it's not this is the stock market putting these valuations on these companies so there's not it definitely is a juxtaposition when they're getting to $2 trillion and then they're fighting with something like Fortnite and all the developers over power. What's the, what's the, what's, what to do about it? What is your perception? Because you can't really change what Wall Street is valuing. Yeah. I mean, we can't change what Wall Street is valuing enough, but I think that what we can do

is hold them more accountable to what they're doing. You know, we were talking about the issue with Fortnite and I'm like, that is, it's interesting that this is happening as they're facing the biggest legal challenges that they ever will in their history. And I think that we're just going to keep, this is just going to keep happening more and more. For me, it's really a question of like, what are you doing with that growing revenue? How are you being held accountable? Because the more valuable the company is, the harder it is for, you know, for people outside of the company to really have a grasp on what's going on. And so that, I don't know, that really concerns me. It's also just, it's one of these, like watching them like really tout this in a press release during COVID is, during COVID, that seems very crass to me.

But yeah, I, like you, I'm watching and I'm curious. But I feel that we are watching an acceleration of something that cannot be good happen. So we'll see. What do we do? What do we do? What happens? Watching it is one thing. I don't know if there's anything you and I can do.

No one's thought of breaking up Apple. Apple was not thought of being broken up. Others have. They think about all the others, Google, Facebook, Amazon. That's been discussion. Is there a breakup here or is there a necessity for a breakup? I definitely think that they need more regulation in their hardware ecosystem. That's one thing that can happen. I think that, you know, something needs to happen with the payment systems. Like, there is a monopoly there also that is concerning. And, yeah, you know, it's like, now, just thinking about the fact that they take a 30% cut in the App Store, it seems like extortion at this point.

It's like, what do you need all of this for? But yeah, it's like the way that I look at this is that the government has to step in again. There's nothing that you and I can do. And the rest of us are all watching. But I just wonder, I'm like, is the government also watching this and just excited about it? Or are they understanding that this is actually a problem? So what is the next $2 trillion company? Because that's where this is headed. I mean, I like thinking about that.

It's giving me agita. Amazon. I mean, Amazon, obviously. Do you think they're mad that they didn't get there first? No, I don't think so. I think Jeff Bezos is very happy with himself. He's very happy with himself. Very happy with himself, the Jeff Bezos story. Yes, exactly.

I think he has no problem with that. I don't think he cares. I mean, yeah, probably them and who else? Google, followed by Microsoft. It's just big, big, big, big, big in all areas. And again, let's just stress, this is not just tech companies. Walmart and Target had their best quarters ever because they were designated the places people could shop compared to small businesses. Even though, you know, you could buy anything at a Walmart or a Target, it was designated a grocery store, an essential service. And so everybody who had all those smaller stores with other things that were not deemed essential, even though they're inside of a Walmart, you know, got killed. You can see boarded up, you know, just even in New York,

watch. The only thing that seemed to be doing okay were finally restaurants. Some of the restaurants were doing better because they were able to operate outside. But, you know, the boarded upness of the entire city was really, and here too, the same thing. Yeah, I mean, and small businesses are just, you know, I think in New York, the stat that I saw in the Times Metro section was that probably a third of those businesses will never come back, which is so sad. You know, I, like, I also just, I know that we've been like very negative about this, but you know, I think that I just want to be clear that we're not intertwining the performance of tech companies with the wealth gap. You know, I'm like the, the tech companies are not responsible for, for the growing inequality that we're seeing seeing but they're definitely an example of it right and yeah so i'm like i'm not blaming apple or the stock market or whatever for making

trillions i'm just saying that millions of people are out of work um because of how we handled coronavirus and the backdrop of this are these companies who are thriving and everyone else in a small business is doing very poorly. And that is not, that is not an America that is, that is sustainable. This is all going, this is all going to end badly. So maybe, maybe they will talk about it at the, at the democratic convention tonight. I hope so. I hope so. They sort of did. They talked, let's see, gun control, gun, gun violence. They talked about sexual harassment. They talked about immigrants.

Yeah, I guess they could. They could talk about this idea of that. They didn't really zero in on the rich versus the poor yet. Next time you should have like a hedge fund person or whatever talk about, do you love how technical I am? A hedge fund person or whatever. I just want to hear more about these valuations because they're very perplexing.

They're very, very, very perplexing. And I have so many questions about them. Well, Wall Street is not Main Street. Okay, we're going to move on to another thing. You asked listeners, speaking of touching, and someone's going to talk to us, you asked listeners how they're navigating one another during the pandemic. Your book is about how to navigate friendship and other relationships.

So here is one listener's dilemma. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hi, this is Jeff from Oklahoma. I wanted to give an answer to Ms. Sal's question regarding boundaries during COVID. Hi, this is Jeff from Oklahoma. I wanted to give an answer to Ms. Sal's question regarding boundaries during COVID. My oldest son is a congenital heart defect patient and at great risk of the most detrimental effects of the virus were he to be infected. Thus, we've been in various stages of quarantine since late February.

We haven't let a single person even near our home without specifying that they need to be in a mask and distance from all of us. But I'm having to make a much different decision now. My baby brother is dying of liver and kidney failure at 32. I've had to make the agonizing decision to not be there as he moves into hospice. Even if I were to quarantine for two weeks after his inevitable passing, I can't guarantee that I won't myself contract the virus, pass it on to my children, or possibly die from it. I feel life's experiences and problems are relative, so I'm sure there are horror stories that make my own current circumstances pale in comparison, but having the courage to make sure that I extensively question anyone who comes near my home has been a no-brainer. I'm curious how the two of you are negotiating these things and what kind of boundaries you set up. Thanks

for everything. I love your show. I'm okay, comparatively. Wow. This is such a heartbreaking kind of voicemail to get. I am, I, yeah, I'm really grateful for this, to this person for calling in and just really just heartbroken for them because you, how do you figure it all out? And, you know, it, it makes me, it makes me really upset, Cara, because there, there was a different way that this could have been handled where people would not have to choose between which relative do you have to see? Like, whose safety are you putting first? What are you doing? It is just, this is really upsetting to me. It's a grating thing because it's not, this guy obviously has a worse time with his child and relatives being very sick, but people do also deal with it on a very basic level. I know, I think Amanda's very,

the baby can't see her grandparents and she's very close to her family. Friends can't see each other. You can't the baby can't see her grandparents and she's very close to her family friends can't see each other you can't i can't see you for example i've gone to two zoom funerals since quarantine has started um we have another uh shiva on zoom next week this is all very very very upsetting to me you know, people cannot grieve appropriately. There is no closure. There is no end in sight. And again, when we are confronted with choices like the one the listener is making, I think that having a little bit of grace for yourself is important. And, you know, making choices and rationalizing them to yourself is the only thing that you can do. Like I, you know, we are not in a position to say like, what is, what's the best thing to do? But I think

that for anyone who is, but I think that for anyone who is listening at home, I think that really having this perspective of, okay, like, sure, like maybe you want to go to a bar or maybe you want to see people or, you know, or maybe you really do need to see your parents or you want to go to a bar or maybe you want to see people or, you know, or maybe you really do need to see your parents or you want to socialize with people. But I think that really remembering the sobering truth that there are harder and other choices that people are making and every choice that you make as an individual impacts the collective. And so that is, you know, I think that like from an ethical perspective and really from a, from a place of just like wanting to be a good citizen and a good member of my community, that is something that I struggle with all the time, you know? Well, it's interesting because I think people are, the level of selfishness has surprised me, although there's been a lot of moments of grace

and people are being lovely. Like I found people in New York great this weekend. You know, I mean, I was expecting like an onslaught of attitude, but it wasn't that. It was actually lovely. People were really masking up. They were being respectful. New Yorkers are great. New Yorkers are great. It was sort of, of course, but then I was getting to the toll booth. I was putting on my mask. I happened to be talking to my mom. I always use my mom's example. And she's like, why are you doing that? I'm like, the toll booth operator has to deal with people every day. Why should I try to get them sick? And sick and oh that's silly and i was like what is i was like literally i like had the because i'm like what is wrong with

you are you homicidal like are you homicidal like it was weird i was sort of like what is it's a total lack of empathy and the lack of just i i i'm going back to like michelle obama speech on night one of this thing. And when she really talked about the empathy piece, that has stayed with me for a long time because, you know, like Mary Trump talked about that when we were with her also. Just this complete disregard for other. It's like, what does it cost you to wear a mask for five minutes to pass a toll booth? It doesn't cost me anything. It's like, what does it cost you to just be a decent human being to other people? And so I don't know,

it doesn't surprise me. It really disappoints me. Let's do something positive. Your whole book is about how you and your best friend have maintained closest through difficulties. How do you maintain it in the digital space now? What advice do you have for people who are having trouble staying close to friends during time? It doesn't have to be as dramatic as a funeral. I will confess to you that we did not write an advice book because we are not experts or qualified. Like, it's very much, you know, a memoir of our friendship. I think that in COVID, you know, Anne and I do not live in the same city. So at the beginning of the pandemic, very much our friendship was not

affected because we don't, yeah, it's like, it's the friendships with the people that you live in town with that are, you know, those had to go digitally very quick. But the longer this has gone on, the more challenging it's been for all of us I will say that the thing that has helped me the most is just being a little vulnerable with your friends and saying and actually telling them like hi I am struggling to stay in touch with you and I want to figure it out together because I think that the biggest lesson I have learned at least in my own life about any kind of relationship strife is that it is mostly a thing that you are talking to yourself about and not to the other person that's involved with in the thing. And so I think that just saying to your friends, like, hi, like I am zoomed out, or I am, I am, I have childcare responsibilities. I have a lot of things. I don't know. I don't know

when I'm going to get a moment to myself, but you are someone that I think about a lot and you are someone who I want to try to integrate into this, you know, into my quarantine. To be very explicit about it. Sometimes even just saying that like takes all of the pressure off because you have now both reassured each other that you are struggling with the same thing. Are there better tools that you found that, you know, to do that? I think FaceTimes, like we're doing a lot of FaceTimes. I don't, I have been really baffled with how, I understand why for work we have to use Zoom and video chat. I completely understand it. Right. I don't understand why everyone has decided that the technology of work also has to apply to friendships and to relationships. I see. Because that just makes it harder. Just call people. What do you

do with people who don't live in your town? Just call them. I was like, I call my dad. I call my friends. I think people appreciate that. I also say, when you think of someone, immediately get in touch with them in a way. It doesn't have to be a phone call. You can drop them a letter in the mail. You can drop a postcard. Kara, I send you postcards. Don't act like this is weird. You know what I gave? I know. I know. I'm teasing you. I gave Louis stamps and he still can't figure out where to put the address. I know. Remember when Louis called us one time because he couldn't figure out the postage situation, the post office? He was like, what do you do? He was like, so you stand in line and then you buy stamps and then they make sure.

He didn't know where to put the address. I literally mailed something for him and he had the address in the return address. That's not his fault. They should be teaching that in high school. Okay. That is not his fault. But listen, I was just saying like, you should get in touch with someone.

Like this, like I have a friend who is very good at this, who she will just call you and leave you a voicemail. Like she knows that you're not going to answer and she just leaves you a voicemail. I love to listen to the voicemail. You just have to figure out what your people want. I don't think that there's one size fits all advice, but I think that instead of carrying the guilt.

What do you not do? What do you, what is the worst thing in this digital space? I do not video FaceTime people who I know don't want to be on FaceTime. I think the worst thing that you can do also is just not being explicit with your words. It's just not telling people that they matter to you and you care about them. Like that is the worst. Just tell people and then figure it out. That's the beautiful thing about friendship is

that the two people in the friendship get to define the rules of how they do their friendship. Right. And when you take away from, if you were writing this book that you wrote now, what would be, so you already had the long distance relationship, you were already working on that. But in general for people, if you were adding a chapter right now of how to deal with it in this timeframe, what would you put in it? Always connect? I would put in it like connect when you can, but also talk about how you are going to connect. Like I think that that's important. Keeping in touch is a muscle that you have to exercise. If you don't

do it, you're going to be the person who doesn't keep in touch. If you try, you will probably get better at it. I also think yeah, you have to be consistent in the way that you do it. I don't mean that in that you have to do it every day, but you have to figure out a rhythm that works. And again,

you're in a relationship with someone else, so you should figure out what rhythm that works. And again, you're in a relationship with someone else. So you should figure out what that is. It's like, are they, you know, do they like it when you text them? Do they like it when you DM them? Do they like, I know it sounds very cheesy and it's all very, you know, it's like, you've got to talk about a lot of this stuff, but this is why, this is what makes like relationships great. Like whether they're romantic or not is that you figure out each other's boundaries. You figure out what like people like and you get to infuse like your own, you know, your sense of like wonder and magic into it. And I think that you cannot do that if you are not in dialogue about what each of you want out of the relationship.

I would like a hologram with you. Oh, I would give you a hologram, Cara. I would just be in your house all the time. What do you like? You would probably be like a really good, like Alexa voice. Like that's what you would be. I would be. I would be. I would like, I like FaceTime, especially with the baby. The baby loves it. Loves FaceTime. The baby is always like very expressive on FaceTime. I get excited because I'm like, oh, maybe she's recognizing my voice. No, she's just stimulated. We love it. No, she recognizes you. But it's really,

I like FaceTime. I have to say I find FaceTime great for personal, especially because of the baby. But I like, you know, I like FaceTime. I do. I think it depends. Like I like FaceTime and you like FaceTime. So I'll FaceTime you. But like, what do you do with the people who don't like FaceTime? I just, I text. That's my other, texting is my number one way to communicate. Do you do like voice totext or do you text yourself? No, I hate voicemails. No, I mean when you're texting, are you talking into the phone or do you type the words? I sit there with my little tiny digits.

Yeah, you're a prolific texter. This is true. I am a prolific texter. This is true. I can move a book with my text. Anyway, this is a really interesting time, but we're going to have one more quick break and we'll be back with predictions. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere

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Invest 30 minutes in an episode today. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. Okay. Last week, Andrew and I talked about what cabinet positions might look like under a Biden Harris administration. I know you thought that's what you were going to talk about, but you know what? The RNC is coming up. It's a scary thought, but any ideas what the Trump cabinet might look like if he gets reelected?

I'm sorry to put this burden upon you. I can't believe Andrew Russ Sorkin gets the like, everything easy, and you're asking me to imagine the worst empire possible? Come on. Come on, just a few. What are you, who's gonna, are they gonna bring people back?

What is this? He literally has dregs now. No, he literally has dregs. He doesn. Just a few. Are we going to bring people back? He literally has dregs now. No, he literally has dregs. He doesn't have anybody good. I was like, when you lose an evil name like Rex Tillerson, can you get higher than that? I don't think so. Right. Right. So will he, if he loses, I think he's going to protest out the yin-yang. I think if he wins, this is going to be one... I think he's going to name one of his kids in the cabinet. Like, he's going to have to. Like, a kid or a relative. Like, there's just no... Like, you know,

I'm just like, where else is he going to find these people? I think, like, one of the... Who would you like him to have? Act like he suddenly goes, oh, God, I better, like,

clean this up a little bit. Who would you see work? Oh, like, in a good, like, he gets a mind and he cleans it up. Yeah. Cause Hillary Clinton talked about that. I thought he might rise to the occasion. Barack Obama.

I thought he might like understand the gravity of where he was. And then he didn't. I don't know. Maybe like. If suddenly he understands the gravity. This is such a like demented game, Kara, but I'll play along for two seconds.

All right. Okay. Maybe Mitt Romney, like have Mitt Romney as something important. Have- Not make him have an embarrassing dinner, right? I mean, the dinner, like Mitt Romney has already humiliated himself.

So that's his problem. Well, he's redeemed himself slightly. Like who else? Kara, these people are all bad. Like have, I don't know, Colin Powell, like somewhere at defense have, no, this is a bad game. It's like, I literally cannot see it because all the people who could have been, you know,

doing this are all speaking at the DNC. So, uh, unclear. Yeah. But yeah, I just, I, I can't like, uh, I can't play. Who would be the worst? Who would be, okay. The worst is Betsy DeVos staying at her job, like, education. She was just, like, ripping the whole place apart from the beginning, so that's bad. Having, like, a straight-up conspiracy theorist, like, which there already are, but, like, someone, like, fully from QAnon.

They're winning GOP nominations. Yeah, those guys are winning GOP nominations. It's bad. You know, like, Tom Cotton joining the administration, also bad. I don't know, like Ben Shapiro, you know, like press secretary, bad. That kind of stuff. No, thank you. Okay. So you don't see any, it just can't happen. I mean, why do you think that it could happen? I always, you know what? I'm one of those people.

I mean, but don't you think that that is... Cheater's going to cheat. I think he's going to cheat. I think if it's close, you're going to see a real... I think eventually he'll be out, but he... I think the Democrats are making their strongest bid right now. I think, you know, you could have a younger person than Biden. You could do a lot of things, but it's a good looking pair.

It's a... Everybody likes him. This is the best effort going at this moment. And so if it doesn't work, I think it'll be protests 24-7. I hope there are protests 24-7. I hope he does not win. It's just, you know, Barack Obama's speech was really, it was like, this cannot go on.

A pissed-off Barack Obama? I thought I'd never see it. Oh my gosh. I honestly was so scared. It was like between him and Hillary last night, and they were like, good luck, everyone. Take care of yourself. I was like, I cannot handle this. This is not okay. Yeah, I agree. But I did like Kamala Harris. Kara, if you were going to be in the government, maybe not of this evil person, but if you were going to have any government job in an administration that you like, which job would you like?

I would create a director of the internet. Oh, that's good. I would create a new area because we have an SEC. It's a very distinct industry. Andrew Yang wants the job, so I'd have to arm wrestle him. Kara, no offense to Andrew Yang. Kara, no offense to Andrew Yang. Well, some offense to Andrew Yang. You have

more tech experience than Andrew Yang, okay? Selling an SAT company, I'm like, is that what makes you a tech entrepreneur? But that's just me. Oh, just very quickly, Steve Bannon was just arrested. I think he misspoke to Congress.

Oh, no. I love it. Are we still facing consequences? Probably. He'll pardon him. I mean, he'll definitely pardon him. Are you kidding? Who knows? Oh, man. I think he did actually lie to Congress. They did a criminal the bipartisan commission, the Senate commission did

say Eric Trump, Steve Bannon, a number of people. Oh, he was charged with fraud for the border wall campaign. Oh, oh, that one? Okay. I thought that was the Senate thing. Wow. Fraud for the border wall. Whatever. Talk about it. It all begins and ends with him, doesn't it? It really does. I have to say, Steve Bannon is probably one of the most single, most damaging personalities in our country. Just awful. Awful, awful, awful, awful, awful.

I think he really did predict and facilitate Trump in a way that I think people don't appreciate his impact. Same thing with Rupert Murdoch. Yeah, I mean, really weaponizing people's xenophobia. Weaponizing people's xenophobia and hatred. Well, let me tell you the job that I want. I want to be on the board of the USPS because I looked up the board members. It's like nine white dudes. Everyone is a lawyer.

It is such a cushy job. First of all, you get paid like $50,000 for the board assignment. And then all of this other, you get paid like $50,000 for the board assignment. And then all of this other, you know, like travel stipends or whatever. I'm like, none of these people need this. Please reform the board. You'd be so good on the post office. I know. I'm like, reform the board of the USPS. That's the, I'm like, that's where I want to serve on that. Or just be postmaster general. I love the post. I love the postal service. Okay. I'm Postmaster General. I love the Postal Service. I'm telling

you this so that when you're Queen, you remember to put me at the Post Office. It's the only assignment I want. Alright. Okay. It's done, Amina. You've got it. You've got it. I will make you the head of the Postal Service. If I had any cloud, it would happen. It would be very funny. I can't wait.

You'd be so into stamps. You'd be like, all right. Actually, you know what? They have good stamps. They do have good stamps. They currently, the best stamp at the U.S., the best stamp at the post office right now, if you're looking to buy stamps, is they have issued a Ruth Asawa stamp. She's an amazing

artist. Those stamps are beautiful. There are, yeah. Look at the stamp collection online. You don't have to go with the boring ones. They're like, there's some beautiful, beautiful stamps. And the postal service, when I was there recently, they were like, buy some stamps and help us. And these are great. They were all excited about showing

me their stamps and they were all great. Anyway, Amina, it's been a pleasure hosting with you this week. What advice do you have for Bar Attendee Thurston who is co-hosting with me next week? What should we discuss? Wow. What should you discuss? Well, definitely ask him who his creative picks for the Trump administration 2.0 will be. I'm curious about hearing those. I'm going to ask him.

Yeah, I think you should ask him that. I think you should ask him, yeah, you should also ask him what he wants to do in the government. I see what you're doing. All of your guests are just your shadow cabinet. So I'm loving this for you, Kara. You would totally be my chief of staff. What's Scott up to?

Is he, like, what's his deal? When is he coming back? He's in Nantucket. Living his best life. Well, his fans have been tweeting at me. So like Scott will be back from Nantucket very soon, everyone.

No worries. Oh my God. They love you. Listen, they love Scott. He has a good fan base. I'm into it. I know it does. I know. Don't say anything. He has a good fan base. I'm into it. I know it does. I know. I know. Don't say anything. We did a live pivot yesterday and so he got his game on and they got enough of Scott. So that's fine. Anyway, I'm going to be happy to have him back too. But I love having someone like you

and all the Stephanie Rule and Andrew and I'm excited for next week. I can't wait. Anyway, speaking of Scott, we hope you've been loving our live stream series called Pivot Schools. You can still get tickets for next week's show at pivotschool.com. Next week is Sundar Pichai. Yay. It's Tim Wu and Sundar Pichai. I think it'll be great.

And now I'm going to, can you read us out? Can you read us out, Amina? That would be great. I can read us out. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sananess. Fernando Finate engineered this episode. Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Thanks again to me, Aminatu, for co-hosting this week. Kara, thanks for having me. Make sure that you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommends, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever

you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. Carol will be back next week with Baratunde Thurston co-hosting The Breakdown on all things tech and business. And just remember Amina's book, Big Friendship, how we Keep One Another Close, How We Keep One Another Close. And she's also the co-host of a fantastic podcast called Call Your Girlfriend. Thank you so much, Amina. Thank you, Cara.

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