Pivot - Market Mayhem, Iran Protests, and Guest Jessica Yellin

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

Kara and Scott discuss the growing protests in Iran, and what dramatic market declines mean for the future. They also chat about Elon's pre-trial deposition in Delaware, and how Meta allegedly bypassed Apple’s tracking transparency policy. Then, Friend of Pivot Jessica Yellin joins to discuss the neutral news trend, and her independent media company, News Not Noise. You can find Jessica on Twitter and Instagram at @jessicayellin. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. How you doing? How's it going? Did you listen to my new podcast already? Kara, Kara, you know we're not interested in each other's work outside of Pivot. No, that's not true. That's not true. How many of my books have you read? All of them. I just finished Adrift. Yes, I have. Yes, I have it. I haven't. I'm showing Clara through it. Yes, I am. And I made Alex read it. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Thank you for that. No, I have not listened to it, although I'm excited about it. I'm saving it.

Are you? I'm saving it for. You're not listening to it at all, are you? You know, it's Chris Cuomo. Really? Chris Cuomo is the interview. Yes, indeed. That was your inaugural pod is Chris Cuomo?

Yes, it is. And the next one is Hillary Clinton. Okay, so let's unpack that. So I've met Chris once, and I didn't listen to a word he says because he's very handsome. That was my first observation. Does he come across handsome on the podcast? Yes, and he was wearing a very muscly shirt, a t-shirt, when we were doing the interview. But it doesn't have an impact on Kara. So, give us a preview. you do? Well, you know, it's interesting because a lot of people have feelings about him because of what he did and how he got fired from CNN. So we talked a lot about that. And he's trying this new thing called News Nation. I think it's called News Nation, something like that. Anyway, it's this company from the superstation WGN, it used to be. So they're trying to create a news organization

that is down the line, aiming at the sort of middle of people who don't like Fox or MSNBC or CNN, that kind of thing. And so, which is interesting because he sort of was the king of that at CNN. And so, he wants to hear from all kinds of people. He was making the argument that he did before. We talked a lot about the thing that happened with his brother and the decisions he made, all of which were bad for him. It was a lot about sort of ethics and journalism, him. It was a lot about sort of ethics and journalism, the changing journalism scene, you know, the price he paid, I think, for what he did. And we had a disagreement about, you know, he said he would do it over again. And I said, I would never do such a thing for my brother.

I wouldn't advise him and then not tell. Thanks, Jeffrey Swisher. Well, I think he'd agree with me if he was involved in something like that. And I was behind the scenes without telling people that I was doing that. I wouldn't do it. It's unethical. Anyway, we talked about it, but, you know, I let him talk about his reasons. So it was good. It was very good.

I suspect you'd agree with him more than me. I think you're right. So some just inside baseball. As you know, I had a show on CNN Plus, Kara. I know this. I know this. I know this. Yeah, you and seven other people. So, the two things you hear about Chris Cuomo inside the walls of Time Warner.

May I interject? I watched both of them. But go ahead. Keep going. I had six episodes. Anyway. Did six go up? Six.

I think five got aired. Anyways, back to you. I don't think so. All right. five got aired? Anyways, back to you. So, one is, after all that stuff went down, people really felt like he behaved inappropriately, that he was universally, as far as I could tell, really disliked after that whole thing went down. People felt a lot of anger and resentment that he really damaged the network and that he just didn't acquit himself well. The other thing that I didn't know is that-

With the lawsuit, you mean? With the lawsuit. Yeah, the lawsuit, the way he sued them. Because he brought Zucker down, really. That's what he says he did not drop that down. Yeah, that he just became destroying everything in his path. He became just burning the village to save it, so to speak. And the other thing is that he is one of the most talented people that anyone's ever worked with.

Yeah, broadcaster. He's a very gifted broadcaster. That supposedly the monitors could go out and it would be no problem for him. That some people, if the monitor went out, that was it. They were dead in the water. You wouldn't even know when the monitor goes out with Chris that he was that talented and that natural. Yeah, very talented broadcaster. when the monitor goes out with Chris, that he was that talented and that natural. Look, he gets to come back like a lot of people don't, right,

in terms of where he's coming from. And I do admire anybody who does new things. He's trying this new News Nation thing, which I think is interesting, and we certainly need more outlets. I think I like not redemption stories, but an attempt at redemption. I like those stories. And so we'll see.

And then we also added Naima is on the show. She's sort of a ringmaster a little bit. Oh, really? She's on air. She's on air. There's lots of pieces to the show. It's many features on the show. And I do an essay at the end, which is good.

You do an essay? A little touch of Kara? A little touch of Kara. A little swish for dessert? I'll have the swisher souffle and a bottle of wine to chase that. I'm going to mention you a lot. I mentioned you several times during this show. I think it's going to be a nice click with Pivot.

I think it's a nice, it fits a lot better together. It has a sassiness to it. It's a nice click. So it'll be good. Anyway, but today, we'll talk about the protests in Iran, the outlook for the market, and we'll speak with journalist Jessica Yellen, who I just met recently, the founder of independent media company News Not Noise. So this is the same thing, neutral, neutral News Not Noise. So it's the same thing on what we

talked to Chris Cuomo about. Jessica and I had a three-hour lunch in Colorado. Did you? She's great. Literally, we couldn't stop lunching. We could not stop lunching. You have a very similar attitude towards her, I think. I had a nice little coffee with her recently at your apartment, actually. But first, Twitter is getting its first chance to hear from Elon Musk under oath. Musk is currently answering questions in private deposition about his attempts to pull out of his $44 billion Twitter purchase. That should be interesting.

Twitter is also making a rare move of questioning Musk's attorney, Alex Spiro. Together, both sides have subpoenaed over 100 people, including former Twitter CEO, Jack Dorsey, who I believe has testified. This is the discovery period, as they say. It's a five-day trial in the Delaware Chancery Court, kicks off October 17th. It's like our Super Bowl. We are going to have the cinematic universe of Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway to cover it for you with content feeds across Pivot, Prof G, and on with Kara Swisher. So we're going to do it up. So what do you think about right now where we are? Just getting ready? She's getting ready.

Look, I think what's going on behind the scenes is that his lawyers, who have got to be very bright people, have said, this is a tough one, boss. And so I would imagine that he's already made overtures to Twitter saying, we should settle this. And Twitter's in a weird spot because unless they settle it for, you know, the better part of $20 billion, they're going to—their best course of action here is to get a decision that says he is legally obligated to pay $54.20 and then start the negotiation there. So, I don't think they have any motivation. I think their likelihood, if you game theory it out, I think there's a 90% chance likelihood they're going to get a decision in their favor. So, you know, 0.9 times 54 bucks is what, you know, $49. So, and then the natural level of the stock is around 20 bucks. So, $29 delta times 750. So, unless he's willing to settle for 22 billion, they're better off, in my view, going forward with the case. And I think this, I don't think Elon Musk is going to do well under oath, because I think that individuals of his power with his sort of, that register his sort

of idolatry, begin to believe that they have their own reality. I don't know about that. He won that case with the pedophile thing, the pedo thing he did. I think he does have discipline when it comes to that. Remember, he didn't go off the rails there. He goes off the rails in real life when he does 420 and things like that. But when he gets under oath, I think he's much more in control of himself. Yeah, but that was, he didn't, he could say the truth there because the reality was that was in poor taste, that showed a lack of character. But in a slander case like that, unless the individual can show it's cause of economic harm, unless he's not getting cave diving tour expeditions because people think he's a pedophile, he's not going to win. And so, but in this case, he's just so wet.

He's so wrong. And I also think there's so many things that are going to reflect poorly around his true intentions here. I mean, he kind of shows up having lied. I want out of this deal because of the bots. Well, that's not true. And I think that they're going to begin to ask him very uncomfortable questions around his financing and who was in the deal and who got out of the deal. I mean, they're just going to ask. They're going to be so pointed. And his previous texts and emails. Yeah, no, for sure. I think one of the things. I mean, they're just going to ask. They're going to be so pointed. And his previous texts and emails. Yeah, no, for sure. I think one of the things, though, is he, if you've noticed, his Twitter has calmed

down a great deal. A great deal. His lawyers have said, stop it. I know, but he's done it. Like, listen, Trump hasn't. Trump hasn't shut the fuck up. You know, he has done it. He's very responsive.

I've been trying to reach him for a while. He suddenly responded. Very cordial. I've been trying to reach him for a while. He suddenly responded, very cordial. I think he knows he has to be cordial and really not, he can't indulge himself. And he, unlike Trump, who literally is doubling down on idiocy and just convicting himself, I think he has realized what a situation he's in. So I suspect he'll probably be on his best behavior and he's capable of it in these depositions.

So I don't think he's going to play games. It's far too much money, and it's significant money for him. So we'll see. We'll see what happens in this case, but I think you're right. He's going to lose. I mean, there's so many questions. You have 90 million followers. Have you not put out text messages estimating that somewhere between a third and two-thirds of your followers are bots? Yes, I have said that. Have you not put in place strategies to have these bots weaponized to artificially support your stock price? Yes.

Doesn't that mean you are benefiting from these bots that you also knew? I mean, this is going to be so much fun for the lawyers at Wachtel, the Twitter lawyers. I think they salivate over the opportunity to question this guy under oath. They want to knock him off.

They want him to say something crazy under oath. It'll be a big test of his control ability. The only person that's toned it down more than Elon is Chamath, who all of a sudden everyone's discovering has made $750 million in what is the largest transfer of wealth from failed enterprises since Adam Neumann and WeWork. And he's gone very quiet. Bill Cohen wrote a terrific column. Outstanding.

Outstanding about the SPAC king. And, you know, but he's still making excuses for it. He is, like, still touting his book. But I would agree with you. I think he's got to keep quiet for a little bit now. The thing is with Elon, I'm going to make this, it's not a prediction precisely, The thing is with Elon, I'm going to make this, it's not a prediction precisely, but I think if he tones it down and doesn't go overboard again, he can regain this brand. I think he's done so much damage to his brand in general. Anyways, remember last year when your iPhone started asking you whether or not you wanted a new app to track your activity? Two lawsuits alleged that Meta created a workaround allowing it to monitor activity whether or not a user gave permission. Tracking users is a direct violation of Apple's app tracking transparency policy.

It's also a violation of federal and state laws against unauthorized data gathering. Meta says both lawsuits are, quote, without merit, is the alleged move by Meta Desperate. I know they're angry about it because Nick Clegg said something about it in a recent interview with Ben Smith for Semaphore, where he talked about Apple and privacy. And then I got, I tweeted it. And then Andy Stone, who I really enjoy, because he's really quite pugnacious. He's a face, meta PR person, came back at me. Like, anyway, you know, privacy as a business model. I'm like, Like, anyway, you know, privacy as a business model. I'm like, I'm good with that. I'm good with that.

So anyway, so he said, by the way, Clegg also said he'll be the one to decide whether or not to allow Donald Trump back on Facebook. He hasn't said which way he's leaning, but gave a deadline of January 7th, 2023. So what do you think of these two things? Same old, same old. Well, the thing that has just struck me is Apple's power. When was it? Sunday. So yesterday, I was with my 12-year-old, and I'm like, what should we do today? And I think, let's do something British.

We're here in London. He's like, kind of thought about it for a minute. He's like, I know. Let's go to the Apple store. And I'm like, okay. So we went to the Apple store. It was packed. We went to the Apple store.

It was packed. And in addition to it being chaos, immediately someone found us, helped us. I got the new iPhone, two screen protectors, one for me, one for my boy, a new case. The service was flawless. I didn't have to go to a cash register. Yeah, that's what you're right there. And the place was on fire. On fire. And I thought-

It's very British. That was a very British thing for you to do. Well, I like to hang out with the locals. It was global. Yeah, I thought so. At a firm based in Cupertino. But if you look at what Apple's done here, it's remarkable. Their ad business has gone from a few hundred million dollars in the late tens to about

$5 billion this year. That was the point Andy Stone was making, although it's still small. It's still like gigantically small. Yeah, it's supposed to be $30 billion in four years. It's going to be one of the largest meetings. Yes, but that's still small. Yeah, still small compared to them.

They're like $160, $180 billion. Yeah, but that revenue will be like 90 points of margin. It'll be another revenue stream. I get it. Facebook was trying to put out that Apple's their real competitor from an advertising point of view today, and they're not. I mean, Amazon certainly has made inroads, and I think they definitely are facing competition from Apple. But nonetheless, what do you think of Facebook doing this if they did this?

Well, I mean, that'll be for a court of law. But what's just striking to me is that an unintended consequence, and I saw this as somebody who has startups and used to acquire customers online, the cost to acquire a customer online or the ROI is down 40% because we all talk about privacy. Meta and Google's inability to track people in the same fashion and target them as well has meant that small, medium, and large-sized businesses, their costs of customer acquisition have gone up dramatically. Now, what does that mean? It means offline advertising is more or is less deficient relative to online advertising. So you go there. And it also means that Apple is now in the driver's seat and has first-party data that they can begin to weaponize or use for their own assets. But there's just no doubt about it. Apple, under the auspices of privacy, and this is one of the great genius brand-slash-business moves, has transferred tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars from mostly meta but some from Google to Apple under the auspices of privacy.

Yeah. And speaking of butthurt, they can't stop it. They're doing a lot of very reaching out and slapping of Apple, saying, oh, it's their business plan. It's this, it's that. They want to be in the ad business. They're trying to advantage their ad business by using privacy. They're doing everything. It must be going crazy inside of Facebook because one, they fail with their phone. Two, they have no control over this and it's the center of their business, right? Apple really has a stranglehold on the center of their business. And the meta thing's not working out as well as they hoped. But what do you think about letting, that Nick Clegg is making this decision and not Mark Zuckerberg? I don't like that one person makes this decision, but here we are.

January 7th, he could be back on Facebook. My understanding is Nick Clegg is basically like the solid in all cap letters number two now. Yeah. But look, this has exposed the vulnerability. I mean, a few things have happened. Elon Musk has kind of demonstrated under bright lights what a shitty business Twitter is. I mean, he's really damaged the thing and he's brought, whether he wanted to or not, he's just highlighted this is

a shitty business that's been poorly run for the better part of a decade. And Tim Cook basically said to Meta, you know, we're just so much more powerful than you. With literally a flip of the switch and a few press releases, we can take your business down $10 billion in top line revenue. You know, when a company's doing $150 billion and it's trading at like, what, I don't know, three to four times revenues, they took $30 or $40 billion in market cap out of the company. And not only that, it's even more than that, because instead of growing 5% or 10%, they grow negative 1%, which takes their multiple on EBITDA down. Tim Cook single-handedly took a quarter of a trillion dollars out of Meta. And so, and their general, I'm not surprised at all they're doing this. Facebook, all of big tech is pretty much their approach is, you know, ask for forgiveness, not permission. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's interesting because I did ask Tim, I think I've said, I don't want Apple to be the regulator. It's still, we still should be passing legislation.

Of course, we're not, you know, Amy Klobuchar is struggling to get those things, the things she's trying to get through, and we're not getting it on this one, on privacy. And he said, I don't want to be the regulator either. You know, I don't think, I don't think, you know, Facebook's accusing it of being their business. I think it's a good brand attribute. I don't think it's their business to try to screw Facebook. I think that's just the way they've been forever. I think it's a twofer. I think it's really enjoying this. They've been that way forever. I think they've been that way forever. i think i think they have been that way forever we'll see where it goes but meta that we'll see what do you think that they should let trump back on facebook do you think it matters uh you know god i don't know i i really i don't think it

matters twitter will be twitter is the real twitter's the big one facebook yeah yeah who cares if elon buys it he'll be back on if elon doesn't there's no way twitter's letting him back on they're just going to be like why do we why revisit that we've already gotten the slings and arrows for knocking him off yeah you got a you got a guy who refuses to acknowledge the peaceful transfer of power and so you want to spread that that's what you just let it stay let him stay buried that's what i stand by our decision they could put out we'll revisit it on a regular basis we'll revisit it on a regular basis. We'll revisit it.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's who cares what Facebook does. Anyway, let's get to our first big story. Protests continue in Iran following the outcry over the death of a young woman, 22-year-old Masa Amini, in police custody. She had been arrested for allegedly wearing her headscarf too loosely by the morality police. Over the weekend, protests spread to at least 80 cities.

In response, authorities have repeatedly shut down mobile internet connections for most of the 80 million people who live there. The government has also disrupted Instagram and WhatsApp services, which is one of their go-to moves. Last year alone, 23 countries, including Cuba, Bangladesh, India, and more, shut down the internet a collective 182 times. Talk about this. This is a real, this is really something that's growing in power, these protests, which is critically important.

When I interviewed Hillary Clinton, she did talk about the need for this to keep going. What do you think about this? What's going on here? I think it's exciting. If you take the lens back across the world, democracies are beating autocracies. And for all the grief we give big tech and social media, the poorest nature, I believe that social media and the poorest nature of media now is in large part responsible for the protests in Russia. These autocrats, you weaponize the media,

then you weaponize the economy, and that gives you license to take over the military. But if you have a media where you can no longer control state-run media, or state-run media is no longer what 80% of people see, it's 8% because they get their media from other means, it's really powerful. And not only that, there's a striking contrast here between when you look at what's happening in Russia with men fleeing. And then in Iran, you have women staying and fighting. And it's really, I think it's really inspiring. So I went to UCLA. LA has the largest concentration of Iranians outside of Tehran. And I had several close friends who are Iranian. And I've always thought that the Iranian people are more American than almost any other people, at least the ones I

knew. They were super into capitalism, super into education, super hardworking. And it's always struck me and the people I know that came over and people who still go home and visit their parents, I've always thought it's such a tragedy that Iran is not an ally. Because I feel like at least the people I know, it seems like they are so, I don't know, I always thought that we would get along other than this extremist group running the country. And I think the younger population there wants a different life. I think there's a universal agreement around anyone under the age of 40 that we're not down with a future that looks like this type of oppression. I mean, some of the shit is just so out of, it's just beyond the pale, right?

That women can be married off at the age of 10 or 11. Women aren't allowed to go to sporting events. And people are pulling off their hijabs and cutting their hair. They're putting themselves in very danger from these people. These people are very off their hijabs and cutting their hair. They're putting themselves in very danger from these people. These people are very good at cracking down. And what my worry is very similar to Ukraine, although, look, they keep going as the attention moves elsewhere or the protests can't continue. These hyper, you know, religious regimes have a tendency to come back again and again and again. Like, even if they've been liberalized, they get unliberalized rather quickly. I do think it's really interesting that they do get information

without it. This stuff's getting out. One interesting wrinkle was, and I talked about it on my new podcast, was Christiana Manapour was supposed to do an interview with their president, and she refused to wear a hijab, and they canceled the interview because she was in this country. She often wears it in other countries as a sign of respect, if that's their laws. But he or she refused to, and then they canceled it. And a lot of people thought she should do a hard interview on him, but I felt like the visual of her wearing it right now with him would have been very damaging to these protests. And so I'm glad she refused. Everything's about imagery and everything else and getting that stuff out with these

protests in lots of ways. Well, so the median age of protesters is 20 years old. Get this, 70% of the population in Iran is under the age of 25. You think they're down with this shit? I mean, change is coming, and it's coming in the right direction. And it's going to get in. It's going to get in. Elon Musk, for example, said he's activating Starlink service in the country, even though some cybersecurity experts say there's still logistical challenges. He did that in Ukraine, and it's up and running. And so they're going to get their information no matter what. And so no matter what these, you can shut down these things, but there's lots of forces in the other direction. But you're right, the young people are going to get their information

one way or the other. Yeah, and I think it's exciting what's happening, and Russia's inspiring in its own way. The unfortunate thing is the people on the front line of that, whether it's a young woman who was, you know, beaten to death in prison, or a lot of these young men who are being kind of sent to their imminent death, they, you know, they will be, I don't want to call them martyrs, but it's just a shame, but they will, there's a spark here, and it's catching fire. Well, one would hope within the country, I mean, leaving the country is one thing, but staying and fighting for your rights there would be another thing. Of course, you saw those videos of them getting beaten and thrown into buses, essentially, like dragooned. It's dragooning them.

It's just that's what they're doing. And so, we'll see what happens. We'll see if there is a regime change at any of these places. I'm not so sure that will be the end result. But it certainly does. It must give these leaders pause, especially Putin. But I think Putin's so far gone. I doubt he will do anything except what he wants to. Apparently, he's running the war now and ignoring everybody, which means it's going to end fast, presumably, and not in his favor. going to end fast, presumably, and not in his favor. Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk markets here and abroad, and we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Jessica Yellen. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time,

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Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back. What is up with the markets? The Dow dropped 100 points on Monday morning after a week where it fell to its lowest close since November 2020. The NASDAQ is coming off its worst two-week stretch since the start of the pandemic. The S&P is down about 23% for the year. It's on pace for its biggest annual drop since 2008. The VIX hit its highest level since June. Give us some thoughts. Give us some thoughts. Yes, I don't have a lot to say here other than I would describe our entire economy as the Elvis economy, and that is we've decided to bring in outside forces, a doctor, whether it's Chairman Powell or money printing, and wake the economy up. Our economy, in my opinion, the best thing that can happen to an economy is we go through a recession. And we've bought into this notion that we need to avoid a recession at all costs. And you know what a recession does? A recession in some ways is a transfer of wealth

from older people to younger people. And the reason why I'm economically secure is as I was coming into my prime income earning years in 2008, Apple and Amazon fell to levels where you could buy them for 1 20th what they're going for now. What about these rates? The Fed raised rates three quarters of a point last week. Have an impact of that? It's exactly what we should be doing

because the fastest way to revolution isn't forcing women to wear a hijab or even a bad war. The fastest way to revolution is to universally, severely diminish people's quality of life with Weimar Republic-like inflation. Inflation, if it gets out of control, is really something you cannot control. And so these are – Jerome Powell is really something you cannot control. And so, Jerome Powell is doing exactly the right thing. And the only thing you could criticize him for is being late to it. So, to get inflation under control, you have to dampen demand by making things more expensive by raising interest rates, and you need to increase supply through structural investments that take longer. What about the job market?

Well, the job market's a full employment. Yeah, it is. And so we can afford, quite frankly, we can afford layoffs. And under the auspices of it couldn't happen to a nicer group of people, the people who are taking the brunt of the layoffs are people who are these unicorns. And I don't mean to be cynical about that. Layoffs anywhere hurt. But where you're seeing, let me put it this way, if you're interested in being a waiter, if you're interested in being a driver, construction, you're fine. There's not layoffs there. Where there are layoffs is in the Patagonia vest economy. And we're seeing layoffs at these organizations that were overfunded, that businesses make no sense. But I think a recession, at some point, I think we just

need one. We need to get through it. Here's the terrible thing about recessions. They always happen. Here's the wonderful thing about them. They always end. And it's a natural part of the economy. It slows down. We're out over our skis. We lose some capitals destroyed. People reinvent themselves, reinvent their companies, get laid off, go to a greater use of their human capital. Prices come down. You know what we need? We need prices to come down for a new generation of young people. The president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta said over the weekend he thinks we can get to 2% inflation without severely damaging the economy.

We'd all love them to stick the landing. That's unlikely. To thread the needle between slowing the economy just enough, such that it tamps inflation, but not enough that it hurts job growth, that's almost impossible to do. And here's the thing, the disruption that took place in 2000, a lot of companies came through it much stronger. The disruption that took place in 2008, and then if you were coming into your primary income earning years, you could buy real estate in Brooklyn for $400 instead of $1,400 a square foot. So the down cycle or the recession in an

economy is a healthy thing. Now, people don't feel that way when they get laid off, and that's understandable. But this constant printing of more money, this constant trying to engineer the economy. Like you said, Elvis, we'd rather have more drugs to sing Unchained Melody once again. There you go. Let's just get on it. Bring the Arlott. We'll get through it. We'll be fine. I wish the Colonel wasn't around for Elvis. He would have been singing today. He would have been singing today. The Colonel. The Colonel. There you go. Anyway. Okay, Scott, let's bring in our friend

of Pivot. Jessica Yellen is an award-winning journalist who covered the White House for ABC and CNN. She also is a founder of an independent media company, News Not Noise. She joins us today to talk about the role of the news media and how she's built a news organization outside the traditional media framework, which is not easy. Welcome, Jessica. All right, Scott, I usually, you know, take over because I'm the alpha dog here, but I'm going to let you start this interview because you and Jessica have a bond from your long, boozy lunch. Well, I think the question everyone wants to know is, have you ever had a better lunch than the one we had? Honestly. I really, I can't remember one, Scott. There's truly A, no better company, and B, it made me such a superstar.

Everyone's like, you had lunch with Scott Galloway. Oh, I bet. Go on, you can see why I love Jessica. No, Jessica, Jessica. Okay, so a real question here. You've been at kind of the helm of the bobsled. You cover the White House. You've been on a major network.

Now you're doing something very cool with new mediums. Talk about not the message so much or how news has changed, but how have the mediums changed? What have you noticed about trying to communicate news through a new medium like Instagram versus like traditional broadcast news? Well, the main difference for me is the conversation you can have with the audience. You know, I used to be on these big channels, and I would have some nights millions of viewers, and you just broadcast into this black camera and have no idea how it went over. Now I put something up and I instantly get feedback. And it's not just what everybody thinks, which is, I disagree with this point of view or show me your sources, but

also a lot of like, I didn't know what that term means. I hear it used all the time. Would you explain that? Or now I'm scared, what's going to happen next? And so it becomes more of a conversation and a community. And that's what becomes A, rewarding. B, it gives you real direction on what to report next. And C, I think it's what builds trust with the audience. That you have a back and forth, correct? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you're addressing their needs. Right. Interestingly, I had an interview with Chris Cuomo today, and he's often gone to News Nation, same thing where they're trying to be neutral. Talk what news, not noise is. What does that mean? I mean, it seems obvious, but why don't you explain it?

Well, I started this in 2018 out of the couch in my home. I was doing work from home before it was cool. And I'd been in TV news all these years, and I'd spent a lot of time talking to voters. I was a political reporter. And I was basically, not knowing it, doing market research and discovered in these conversations that there were a lot of people who wanted the kind of information TV news could provide but couldn't stand how we were giving it to them. They hated the outrage and the negativity and the left-rightism. People would

describe it as like walking into a dinner party 10 minutes after it started and you're like, wait, what does that one word mean and who's that person? And sometimes they'd say they feel less informed and more dumb after watching a segment than before because now there's all this stuff they know they don't know. And so I decided— And the screaming. And the screaming. 100%. Or the fear mongering, the panic.

Yeah, exactly. I say what we do is facts, not fear, experts, not pundits, community, compassion, conversation. conversation. And it's really about identifying not just the stories that you absolutely should know to be an informed person in this world, be able to execute on big decisions in your life, but also pointing out you're going to hear a lot about this one thing. It doesn't matter. You can pay attention to it if you want, but that's kind of like the Us magazine of news. You can ignore it too and be just fine. What surprised you most in terms of the topics that get the most engagement versus the least engagement? What surprised you? Well, right now, I'm sorry to report that Ukraine does not get a lot of engagement.

As important as it is, it's a little like, okay, we did that. I still keep it up there, but that's not drawing eyeballs. What is drawing a lot of eyeballs right now is mental health issues, which is, I know, something you talk a lot about. And people are extremely passionate about it. They have a lot of points of view about what needs to be done, what works, what doesn't. And those conversations get so much engagement. I've deliberately worked in sort of wellness and mental health breaks into the news, especially on days that I say have a lot of awful. People just need the let up. I even do one newsletter I call News

That Doesn't Suck, just to give people a break from how much really high stakes negative information there is out there right now. Well, in one case, they sort of lean into that idea of fear mongering. In the other case, there is some tough stories out there. And so when you think about large news organizations, the way they attract right now is through fear and anger. Fox News is like in a constant state of grievance, but MSNBC and CNN tend to do the same things. And, you know, and then it goes all the way down to local news, which I characterize as the expression, it could happen to you. And then no matter what it is, mold, or killer bees, or, you know, a rash, it could happen to you. It could happen to you. My favorite is,

your shoelaces could kill you after the break. Yeah, right. That kind of stuff. What do you think the biggest problem facing them in is if this is their formula, this is their business model. And then I'd love you to come on on your business model because it's hard just on the other side of it. So I think that they made a decision in TV news far predating today. You know, when I was a baby reporter, that conflict is what draws eyeballs, period. And that accelerated over time to fast forward to the Trump era when there was a lot of cause to be outraged. But it then was like outrage on steroids. And it's left people in this place where showing you care equals outrage. Like there's not another, you're either at zero

or 10, no in between. And that's just the model. It's got a lot of fear. Like there's not another, you're either at zero or 10, no in between. And that's just the model. It's got a lot of fear, like you're saying. Also, just a sense of negativity, like a negative valence. The motto when I launched News Not Noise, my motto was, we give you information, not a panic attack. And I used to feel when I was on the White House lawn that some days we were just competing for your anxiety. I grew up in LA and this is the home of Hollywood where they made an entire business of doing content that's largely based on another set of emotions, which are compassion and empathy. And I thought there's an audience that really wants this

and there's a way to do news that has compassion and empathy. And I'll just say there is neuroscience that shows that some of that screaming shuts down learning in some people, in some brains. And so it actually turns off the audience. That's what they're committed to. I think- But they can't stop watching, right? At the same time. No, I know a lot of people who like, they turn it off. Or if I do speeches and I'm in audiences of people, it's people under 50 who go, I can't take it. I just can't. They do this consistently with their ears. They put their hands to their ears. I can't do it. And it's not that they don't care about the information. It's not that they

can't handle how awful the news really is, like the information. It's the added valence we put on it of just rage and conflict and outrage. So I worked hard on thinking, how do we do that differently? How do we unpack that part and bring people into a conversation with a vibe of caring and curiosity? How do you make money doing that? Yeah. So when I started, I honestly didn't know how I was gonna monetize.

I thought, you draw an audience, with an audience, you can figure out how to monetize. So the first thing, I have three revenue streams. I take money from partners or sponsors, however you wanna call them. I get money from the audience and I have deals with some of the platforms. And I think it is wise and really effective to have multiple revenue streams in a content business. In that

space, my biggest regret was not asking the audience to support me sooner. I was so sort of hesitant to do that. And once I did, the response was like so overwhelming and gratifying. And it also gives you this deeper connection with your, you know, everyone calls them super users. It actually helps direct the business. So whether it's YouTube or Instagram or email newsletter, is there a medium you wish you'd invested less in another medium you wish you'd invested more in? letter, is there a medium you wish you'd invested less and another medium you wish you'd invested more in? Oh, that's interesting. You know, my biggest dilemma is something you talk a lot about, which is TikTok. And, you know, if you talk to sort of brand experts, they're like, you got to

be all over TikTok. TikTok's the place. But so much of what I do is also about, is mission-driven. It's about democracy. People need to be informed to engage. And I just am a little uncomfortable. So and then I always, you know, why are you a little uncomfortable, Jessica? China. I just I feel like why am I going to drive more people into deeper engagement in a platform where I believe that the Chinese government can scoop up their data and even drive sentiment here? And I don't you know, why do I need to be feeding that? So let me just press pause there because this is an interesting,

and we get a lot of discussion or questions around this. You are more concerned with the negative externalities of having content on TikTok than having it on meta. Yes. Now, maybe you know more than I do, and you can tell me I'm wrong. I just... No, trust me, I don't.

I think we all struggle with this. It's like, how can you be so critical of TikTok? I mean, it's just... Anyways, I think everybody's trying to figure this out. Yeah, we had a lot of people at Code talking about this. Like Axel Springer's CEO said, we're doing everything to resist it, and eventually we're not going to be able to

because it's the medium of the moment. I think a lot of people are, you know, struggling. I think they're all problematic in their own ways. I'm curious, a lot of what you're talking about is something that Chris Lick at CNN, where he used to work, is pushing. You know, and again, Chris Cuomo's at this News Nation, which is project neutral.

Is that the right direction? Do you see more of this? And can they keep audiences, you know, Fox is only growing with their anger machine, their persistent rage machine. the Tiananmen Square moment, and it was just the centerpiece of the world to me. CNN drew huge eyeballs at major events and accepted that they would get less audience in between. It also became a place where, you know, you could actually reach independents and swing voters, which is enormously valuable and profitable, right? You can charge more for that. So I do think there's a space for that. I think, listen, when I started on Instagram, I was one of the only people doing what I do, but now there's a bazillion people telling you what matters in the world, all outraged and,

you know, dancing and screaming about how awful this party is or that. So there's plenty of left-right content out there. And I think there is a white space sort of that attracts the people who feel a little homeless right now. And I don't know, you know, exactly how CNN is going to execute on that. But I think that Chris Licht in particular has a track record of making very watchable TV. And people should just give him a moment to do it. Yeah. Scott, last question. What advice would you have if you started this new media company and you've done it

yourself? What advice would you give to somebody who wants to start a media company that's news centered? What mediums would you use? Business model. It sounds like you've already said go right to, I mean, is it fair to call it tipping? I don't know what you call it, like the telegraph model or the guardian model. What advice?

You're starting this with a clean slate. How would you do it differently? I guess I would start with a platform outside of any of the current social media platforms and consistently drive to your own website or your own newsletter or whatever the thing is you're doing outside the algorithms from day one, even if it didn't have super high numbers.

And just really focus in on what the audience is responding to and continue to deliver that. It's this conversation. I think, you know, everybody pooh-poohs Web3 or where's it going? But the thing that I find interesting about Web3 is it's this ongoing circular conversation. And I do think conceptually that's where the media needs to go. And those are the businesses that will really excel because we are sorting into sort of, I call it not like-minded, but like-valued communities. And so lean into that. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Just a quick follow-up. I get the sense you're working all the time. I mean, I'm a huge follower of Newsom. She's having three-hour lunches with Scott Galloway. That was a vacation. That was for her mental health, Kara. But I love, I literally love Newsom. I find it so rational and calm and informative.

And it's like a quick burst of information. Get me to what I need to know without the superlatives or the adjectives. But you are putting out content all day long. Do you have a team? So, yes, I have a team and they're amazing. And also, I am one of those people who I just I need to sometimes share. Right. So for me, it is somehow therapeutic to be able to comment on these things and respond to people. Sometimes it's exhausting because people now write me and they'll say things like, do you think I should get the monkeypox vaccine? I trust you. So tell me what to do. I'm like, I can't be your doctor. But it's so that can get it can wear on me. But I just I really love it.

And that's why I do it. And now I got a puppy and that really, he, it's crazy. He sometimes knows when I'm like in a Twitter rabbit hole, he starts yapping at me. So he gets me out. Bruno. Bruno. It's game change. Oh my God. It's dog talk time. Anyway, that's okay. Don't worry about it. Jessica, this is really exciting. I'm glad you did it so early. Just remember, Jessica was doing this in 2018 before it's now sort of the thing to talk about neutral news, but you did it, you called it much earlier.

Thank you. Of people talking about it. You can find everything News Not Noise on the web at newsnotnoise.com and on Instagram at Jessica Yellen because someone else has taken News Not Noise on the Instagram and we're going to get on that soon. Thank you, Jessica.

Thank you so much. Long-time listeners. So glad to be on. Favorite lunch date. Favorite lunch date. Okay, Scott, would you invest, have you invested in that? How would you think of it as an investment opportunity? I asked Jessica and she said she wasn't ready or she was just kind of figuring it out. I think news, not noise is, I just, I think the world of her. And I think it's so important that talented people find new mediums to communicate kind of just the facts, man, like straight down the middle, tries not to give in to the need to tickle our sensors and get engagement through enragement. And she, I would just advocate enormously for, and I didn't know Jessica before

this. I reached out to her and said, I just want to know you and I want to know how I can be helpful because I think what you're doing is really important. You're a fan. So you're a fan. Anyway, that's really interesting. Okay, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Go for it. ones. The new prime minister, Prime Minister Truss, has decided their first move was to enact an economic package that essentially the centerpiece was to eliminate the top marginal tax rate. So it used to be 40%, then she got rid of that. And the thinking was, and you'll recognize this, that our quote unquote most productive citizens, when they have more money, reinvest in the economy and grow the economy. Now, I think there's an argument for that,

but at a minimum, you want to pay for it through other means or other revenue increases, but they've decided to embrace this sort of trickle down economics where let's cut taxes on the rich and explode our deficit. And it's as if they have learned nothing. America has been in a 40-year experiment that that just doesn't work. It might send stocks up in the short run, but it creates income inequality, divisiveness, polarization. Households or one in five households have kids that are economically insecure. And what do you know? They've decided to ignore that, but the markets have decided, no, we've learned from that, and the pound has crashed. I mean, literally, you're seeing the pound for a brief time today, it was at $1.03. It's at an all-time low. Because the market goes, sister, this shit doesn't work. It doesn't work when you've decided to give money to the wealthy and pay it with the credit card. She likes the wealthy. When pay it with the credit card that our children and our grandchildren are going to have to pay it back.

It's like, have you learned nothing? Anyways, that's my line. I like you going into British politics. There you go. Ah, Liz, I don't like it. I don't like it. My win is CNBC journalist or reporter Deirdre Bosa. She did an interview with Keith Raboy this weekend

or on Friday talking about Opendoor. And Keith kicked off the interview by saying that Opendoor has been profitable for five years straight. That is not true. As a matter of fact, I think they lost two thirds of a billion dollars last year. And when she politely stopped him and said that is not true, he said that it was insane and stupid and started walking it back and saying on a contribution basis, on a gross margin basis. He then went on to say that stock-based compensation was fake. No, it's not fake. It's a real thing, Keith. And he then went on to say that he would love to buy shares in this, but he's prohibited from doing so, which is an outright lie. And this is continuing a pattern

of SPACs being the ultimate vehicle for transfer of wealth from retail investors to their promoters. And this stock, this algorithmically driven real estate buying industry is unproven. The one company that should have owned this, Zillow, got out. It was losing so much money. And we gave Opendoor the benefit of the doubt and said it's a pure play. It's now off 84% over the last 12 months. And his, in my opinion, inaccuracies and mistruths were so brazen. I mean, I got to give the guy credit for being so confident when he lies like this. And Deidre was just, she defined forceful yet dignified. And there's a lot about CNBC I've been critical of. They consistently attract journalists who are able to bring that sort of

a composure. I wouldn't have been able to control myself. Yeah. You know, he's probably on Twitter now insulting her. That's his other go-to. Oh, he called her comments. He called her comments insane and stupid. It was a mix between cringe, SEC violations, and mansplaining wrapped up in a CNBC interview. Yeah, he's aggressive. Literally, first ballot hall of fame for worst spokesperson for a company ever. But she did not take the bait. She was cool as a fucking cucumber and just stopped him and said, no, that's not right.

You are not profitable. According to Gap Accounting, you are hemorrhaging money. not profitable. According to Gap Accounting, you are hemorrhaging money. Anyways, my win is CNBC and Deirdre Bosa, who was really, I thought, showed tremendous discipline and grace and just politely pointed out that this guy was enormously full of shit and wasn't going to let her viewers get co-opted by this constant stream of, trust me, I'm a billionaire. I know better than you. Buy my stock. I'm selling, but you should buy. Yeah, I'm a billionaire. I know better than you. Buy my stock. I'm selling, but you should buy. Yeah, there's a whole strain of that

among those types, his types. There's a whole gang of them that do that. They try to bully people into thinking you're stupid and you're not. Deirdre, well done. Anyway, my- Do you have any wins and fails? Yes, I do.

It's interesting. The New York Times has published a story that said TikTok's seen to be moving toward US security deal, but hurdles remain. It would keep the Chinese-owned video app operating in the United States under review. It could mean ByteDance still owns it. I don't know how they're going to thread this needle of it being a Chinese company.

I don't get it either. Do you have any details on that? Do you know what that means? No. This says the two sides have hammered out the foundations of a deal in which TikTok would make changes to its data security and governance without requiring its owner, the Chinese internet by dance to sell it. I just don't understand. It's being run by Lisa Monaco, who's very intelligent about this stuff. And obviously, those people, they're quite sharp. I don't quite know how they can protect the, I don't know. I think it will be politically very difficult to complete an agreement that doesn't have a spinoff at this point. And the Biden administration doesn't want to be seen as soft on China, I think. So Senator Marco Rubio, who's such a dumbass, but this is what he said, anything short world. I think they're just not letting go of it. So we'll see where it goes. But I don't

know if it's a win or a fail. I'll be interviewing the US CEO soon. So I don't know. I think it's so sucked up into a political thing now. And it's also a good cudgel by media companies who aren't as competitive creatively to them. And then a win is, I love that Olivia Wilde's movie Don't Worry Darling did incredibly well at the box office,

along with Woman Warrior, by the way, even despite all the noise about her fights with the, which is so ridiculous. It's always the woman fighting with the,

having a cat fight. There's all kinds of problems on most sets of Hollywood movies. Is it a good movie? Have you seen it? No, but apparently it's about the metaverse. It's about the metaverse. Oh, good.

We'll see. We'll see. So, no, I haven't. I want to. I want to see Woman Warrior first, but I don't, I have not a lot of free time. I am right now watching, as I said, The Dropout. So good. Amanda Seyfried. I hadn't seen it. It I said, The Dropout. So good. Amanda Seyfried.

I hadn't seen it. It's mind-blowingly good. I'm on the last episode and Amanda fell asleep last night. We're going to watch it tonight, I think. But it's really good. I'm really, so I'm excited to see both those movies, both by women directors and doing really well at the box office. So I'd say that's a plus as far as I can tell.

Anyway, that's it for our show. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Scott, as I said, that's the show. It's great being with you. I love our show. You know, I love our show, my new show, but I love our show too. Pivot still remains a joy to do every day. We do it. And I will be in London in like a day or two to stay with you for a month. We could go to the Apple store in London. That would be a real British highlight. That's where I take all the tourists.

We'll be back on Friday for more. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Injertot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. England versus Germany tonight in a friendly at Wembley Stadium as we begin our march towards Doha. Go England!