Pivot - Microsoft Takeovers, the World's Richest Person, and Jack Dorsey's Legacy

Episode Date: December 16, 2022

Kara and Scott open the ol' listener mailbag to answer queries about LinkedIn etiquette, Microsoft products, and why Jack Dorsey is the best CEO ever. Also, a Pivot listener may have saved someone's life. Want to hear your own question on the show? Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Pivot comes from Virgin Atlantic. Too many of us are so focused on getting to our destination that we forgot to embrace the journey. Well, when you fly Virgin Atlantic, that memorable trip begins right from the moment you check in. On board, you'll find everything you need to relax, recharge, or carry on working. Buy flat, private suites, fast Wi-Fi, hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. delicious dining and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash podcast.

Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway. And it's the end of the year, and so we're opening up our listener mailbag, because just what you want for Christmas is advice from us. We've gotten a lot of great questions since our last mail episode, and today we're going to dig in to answer every one we can, even if they're naughty, even if they're nice. Just a quick note, some of these have been edited for clarity, brevity, and sanity. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. Just a quick note. Some of these have been edited for clarity, brevity, and sanity.

You've got, you've got. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Okay, Scott, let's kick off with a question we've heard a lot. I'll read it. Hi, Karen Scott. Big fan of you both. One question.

Why do you and others in mainstream media, I hate that word, by the way, keep talking about Elon Musk and Twitter? If Twitter went offline tomorrow, the world would not change and competitors would fill the gap. I'm not a Twitter user like both of you, so I may be minimizing it, but it seems to me, looking from the outside, that journalists and thought leaders are letting their personal habits and information consumption drive the conversation rather than the impact on people, the economy, and the world generally. From Chad. Chad, you're 100% right. You absolutely are correct. Most people don't give a fuck what's on Twitter. I think Elon is a compelling business figure. It is an interesting business story. I think that's why we cover it. But you're right. Media and politicians are just

obsessed with Twitter, celebrities less so over time. Scott, your thoughts? Yeah, Chad's right. There's an obsession with Twitter because I like the term you use, the chattering class loves Twitter. It's totally irrelevant to anyone under the age of 30, even maybe with Musk. What they're really saying is, I don't like that you're critical of him. And they always have Tesla in their profile. In other words, this is a thoughtful, honest commentary. We should be spending our precious attention and platform on other more important things. But I find, unlike this, a lot of times I get criticized and people say I'm obsessed with Elon, what they're really saying is I don't like that people are obsessed with Elon or Twitter, Twitter, really, and not Elon, because they're purposely rude to Elon, by the way, the Biden administration. But one of the things they were like, we didn't really pay attention to Twitter, because he doesn't want to use it. And we're not, we're not, they're obviously not on TikTok

because of the issues around security in China. But they were like, we didn't think Twitter is not the real world. And, you know, there was a congressperson, what she said is, I knew I was going to win, even though it was a close toss-up race. It was one of these toss-up races. She was, I thought I was going to win because I was talking to actual people in my district. Every time I went, the only time I didn't think I was going to win was when I went on Twitter, which was funny, because it was the chattering class without any information. And she was talking to people on the ground. And I think that's absolutely true.

Most people do not pay attention to it. It gets ginned up by especially, I have to say, politicians are worse than media in that regard. And so it becomes sort of this punditry class. And we agree with you on that. We completely agree with you. But Elon Musk is still, he owns one of the most interesting and important car companies, whether you think it's worth that or not. He has pushed forward EVs.

He has a rocket company. He's deeply involved in what's going on in Ukraine and with Starlink and stuff like that. So there's no end to, and he's, this transformation from a pretty even middle ground centrist to this sort of raging right-wing lunatic is interesting. You know, I think a lot of it's performative, but some of it isn't. So he's interesting, no matter how you slice it. Yeah, there's also the, just more broadly, I've been thinking a lot about this. I don't know where I read this, but it struck me that you are where you pay attention. read this, but it struck me that you are where you pay attention. And that is one of the things I don't like about myself as I've become especially curt and was looking for opportunities to dunk on

other people and aggressive. And I'm like, oh, fuck, I've become Twitter. I'm spending too much time on Twitter. And if you read books about history, you become more thoughtful about historic,, because when you spend that much time online in a platform that does all of those things, it can begin to shape you. And that's one of the things, I think you have to be careful. And that's what worries me about young men and women spending so much time on Instagram.

It's so much porn. And when I say porn, I mean, it's wealth porn. And it's constantly trying to say, look how rich I am or look how hot I am. Happy. Happy. Or look how you should be jealous of me because look how just fucking amazing my life is. Very performative. And it's just, it really is kind of gross.

And it's like, okay, I remember one of the things, when I met with Senator Michael Bennett, he said something that was just fairly obvious. I said, we were talking about Twitter. And he said, you really need more of a president on Twitter. And he's like, you know, he's like, what I have found is that the world just isn't Twitter. And it's very easy to start believing it is. You start taking your cues. You start believing what Twitter believes is what everyone believes. And it's just not true.

Yeah, this congressperson said. The only time I was losing was when I read Twitter. I thought is what everyone believes. And it's just not true. you know, he's messing around with Apple and all kinds of other companies. But there are also important things we should be absolutely focusing in on. That's the media. That's the way it goes. Okay, next question about social media etiquette. I'll read. Karen Scott, I have a friend from college. We used to be very close. After graduation, we stayed in touch a few more years, and I endorsed him on LinkedIn for some specific skill sets. However, he became an ardent Trump supporter and started sharing conspiracy theories about election fraud on social media. I have since blocked him and stopped contact with him socially. However, I've been hesitant to revoke my endorsement or block him on LinkedIn where he hasn't posted anything about Trump. On one hand, his social posts reflect poor judgment and lack of critical thinking. On the other, I don't think it's necessarily preventing him from doing his day

job. Should I rescind my endorsement? Thanks, Ray. Oh, Ray. That's a sticky situation of the month. I don't know. Scott, why don't you go first on this one? I don't think you should. I think you have to separate the person from the politics. And even it sounds like this goes beyond just a simple endorsement of Trump and the conspiracy theory. I think you always err to the side of, I don't even call it grace, but being overly generous. I had a kid that's triggered a thought who we gave a bonus and we said, but you have to be here for the next pay cycle for your sign-on bonus. And he literally

waited till his sign-on bonus hit the account and then didn't come in back in the office because he had accepted another job. So he accepted one job with us to get his sign-on bonus. And then even though he had another offer, so think about this, came to us for 30 days, knowing he had another job, waited till his sign-on bonus cleared and then started his other job. I mean, that is really brazen. That I would, yeah, brazen.

And the guy running the company who took my job as CEO said, we're calling the employer and telling them. And I'm immediately like, yeah, I'm so fucking, and then I'm like, I call them back. I'm like, don't do it. Don't do it. We're just not going to work with them again. We'll have nothing to do with it. But I think when it comes to professional, unless someone is putting another firm in danger or there's something that would make people less safe or you have a personal relationship with that person, you want to save them some headache. I think you let live and let live and just move on. If they're not doing it there, if they start doing it there, I would. If they started to put out conspiracy theories, that's one thing.

But they usually don't do that on LinkedIn. I would if they started to put out conspiracy theories. That's one thing. But they usually don't do that on LinkedIn. So if it comes out, the only time I've ever, one thing I don't do is if I really don't like someone, I don't necessarily go out of my way. But when people call for recommendations, I'm like, I can't give one. You just say no. You just say no.

And they'll say why. This date to this date, and I have nothing else. I have nothing else to say. And they know what that means, essentially. So yeah, in that regard, if they don't express it on that platform, I would just leave it alone. I mean, and not, that's it. If someone calls, say, I don't want to talk about it or something like that. Anyway, next question. But just one thing, Ray's learning a valuable lesson. Almost everyone you know in your life, when you start following them on social, you will like them less.

Yeah, it's true. You will be disappointed and a bit horrified when you start following your family and friends on social. Disappointed and horrified. It's like seeing someone at a bar drunk. Anyway, here's a question about a proposed acquisition. I'll read it. Hi, Karen Scott. Could you please explain why you keep mentioning Microsoft as a good takeover candidate for Twitter or TikTok? My company was acquired earlier this year by Microsoft Shop, and I'm now using their products for the first time. They're horrible. Well, we know that one.

The idea of them buying another company to somehow integrate into a bloated microsphere is mind-boggling. Clearly, you see something different, so I feel your listeners could benefit from understanding what you see. Thank you, Jonathan. Jonathan, this is a very good question.

They tend to leave those acquisitions. I think they do a good job with, for me, Twitter, TikTok, cleaning it up, keeping it safe they do a good job with, for me, Twitter, TikTok, cleaning it up, keeping it safe, doing a great job on the technology, on the AI, on the machine learning. They don't integrate on some of these acquisitions like LinkedIn as much as this other stuff. Their software, yes, I don't use Microsoft software either. I mean, I do a little bit Word, but the ones they keep separate, they own Minecraft, for example. They would just be good on the things that are important to those particular products, which would be AI technology and infrastructure and a judgment call where they would think that safety was important over mostly anything and quality of, I think they do get that. And you've seen that with their other acquisitions that are similar.

Scott? Yeah, well, they have the technical horsepower and domain expertise to handle some of the very difficult issues around just sheer volumes of data that TikTok would require their owner to have some sort of command over. I think both of us, like Microsoft, generally as an acquirer, any company as an acquirer, where we think the CEO is a responsible person and a good citizen, and we both feel that way about Satya. And Dave, I would agree with you, Carol. I think they've been really good stewards of Minecraft and LinkedIn. Yeah, they bought Mojang, which is the studio behind Minecraft. They bought Skype, GitHub, LinkedIn, a bunch of stuff. They're potentially going to buy Activision Blizzard, although that's why it fits in with all those acquisitions.

But that actually might be subject to regulatory scrutiny. It looks like it's going that way. Microsoft, it's just so interesting, the evolution there. They've gone from, it's like Darth Vader, whatever the third installment of Star Wars was, when Darth Vader is dying and they take off his helmet and he turns nice again. I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you.

You already have. Yeah. All of a sudden, Microsoft has literally morphed from Darth Vader to Nice Anakin again. That's true. They're considered one of the better partners in the tech world. Nice Anakin. Let's go up there and call them Nice Anakin. I'm sure Frank Shaw would love that. Frank, you're not as evil as you used to be. Okay, next up,

Fun Mon, it came via voicemail. Let's listen. Hi, Karen, Scott. This is Ashley from Brooklyn, New York. If you were the richest person in the world, what would you do? And I ask this because I know you talk about Elon Musk a lot and about how imaginative and creative and talented he is. But if this is what he's doing as the wealthiest person in the world, bragging about

how he sleep crashes on his friend's couches and making really stupid gay jokes that my 12-year-old would think is not funny, then I really don't know how creative he is. I'm curious as to what you would do. Thanks. Interesting.

Well, you know, people contain multitudes. You can be a terrible person and still be creative. It's just the way it is. Sorry. I would agree with you, Ashley, in that regard. I would not do what he's doing. What would I do if I was the richest person? Do you want to go first, Scott?

Well, that's easier for me. I'd bang so many hot chicks, Kara. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That is inappropriate, Scott. Hello, ladies. Hello. I cannot believe someone come and cancel this, ma'am.

That's what I can't stand about Bezos. Dating someone age appropriate. If he's going to have a midlife crisis and be one of the wealthiest men in the world, he's got to do it right. She seems rather attractive, but go ahead. Anyways, what would I do? What would you do? My role model, first, it's impossible for that because I believe one of the algorithms for happiness is to be rich but anonymous. It's impossible to be anonymous when you're the wealthiest man in the world.

My role model for extreme wealth in terms of how they acquit themselves or how they behave is Mackenzie Scott. She's taught me a lot about giving. And I'm doing exactly what I say I don't admire. When I give away money, I'm now trying to do it anonymously and bring it to the real notion of giving. Because I found most of my giving, and I think most what I'll call male centric or traditional giving, I was talking to universities about a naming opportunity, or they'd get me on the phone to get my views on education. Right, yeah. It's just, it's all, it's a bit of a transaction.

And it moves away from the true notion of giving. And I have someone who's involved with a charity, the McKinsey, just sent an email saying, I love your work. Here's $15 million. Right. So you want to get that way. Yeah. That's how I give money. I just gave some money.

I gave a speech and I had them give the money. And they called me like, we'd love to know what you think. I said, I don't have any thoughts. Just take the money. Isn't that your job? Like Mark Zuckerberg understands public schools in Philadelphia? No, Newark. Newark?

Come on. She's my role model for extremely wealthy people. Okay, so that you give away money, obviously. But what's the crazy thing you would do if you had like crazy money? And I know you're not, you're pretty well off, but what would be the craziest thing you would do? I don't know. Be the largest donor in history to Planned Parenthood. You know, there's just, there'd be some, you could do some crazy cool things.

I don't have any desire to go into space or anything like that. Yeah, nothing? crazy cool things. I don't have any desire to go into space or anything like that. Once I had a big TV, cool shoes, and could pay for dates, I was kind of set. I was rich from the age of 34. So no clothes, no things like that. Yeah, nothing. And people overestimate the happiness things will give them and underestimate the happiness experiences will give them. I don't know. What would you do, Kara? I would do nothing different. I love my Kia. I don't know what to say. I would not buy a car.

I would not buy a boat. I would not buy, I mean, I don't know. Sam I am. Sam I am. There's nothing I, I make enough money to do what I like. I'm trying to think. I'd get a baller plane. I'd get a Gulfstream 500.

For the personal stuff, I might get someone who cooks for me because my son does that. So that's good. Again, move to Thailand. No, I'm moving to Thailand. Gulfstream 500. I got a Gulfstream 500. I would give away things rather aggressively. I give away money in fun and interesting ways. I would probably get very politically.

If someone asked me this because I did have job offers from places where I would have been very, very wealthy, like extraordinarily wealthy. I would have sort of done the Soros thing. Like, I'm going to be the, you know, that Rebecca woman who gives all the money to the right or Sheldon Adelson. I would do that. I would be like, I'm going to like everywhere you go, I'm going to pour money into defeating Ted Cruz or whatever. I would just be make myself such a nuisance. I think probably I would do that. I think I would probably give away all of it.

I just, I don't have, I'm not a big money-motivated person. Along those same lines around philanthropy, I would date Emily Ratajkowski. No. The missing piece in our relationship is me being the richest man in the world. No, no. You know what I would do?

I would buy Dolly Parton. That's what I would do. You'd buy Dolly Parton? And make her be my friend. That's what I would do? I would buy Dolly Parton. That's what I would do. You'd buy Dolly Parton? I'd make her be my friend. That's what I would do. I would buy her park. I would just own Dollywood. I don't know.

That's what I would do. I'd be so bad. I wouldn't dress. I would dress the same. I think I'd like Sam Bankman Freed. Just a step, just a scooch up from. Anyway, let's move on. It's Rebecca Mercer.

Yeah. Like a 15-year-old boy. I love, do you shop at the JCPenney's junior section? Where do you shop? It's my kids' clothes from when they were 10. That's what I have. I literally have clothes from high school. I have clothes from, I know, I just.

See, SBF, Sam Bankman-Fried is literally. I still have your shirt that I took. He's trying to create the perception he doesn't care. It's your reality. You really don't care. It is, I don't care. I do not care about clothes. He's trying to create the perception he doesn't care. It's your reality. You really don't care. I don't care. I do not care about clothes. It's true.

And it shows. The Ray-Bans are a bit performative. Stephanie Ruhle was like, you need to upgrade your clothes. I was like, no, no, I don't. No, I don't. Anyway, she looks great, by the way. So I'm very pleased for her.

I'd buy Stephanie Ruhle a beautiful present. That's what I would do. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll hear from a listener who may have saved a life. Thank you for your question, Ashley. We are the most uncreative rich people ever.

Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank.

Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face

is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness,

a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk. And we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Uncertainty. Self-doubt. Stressing about not knowing where to start. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done.

Out. Word art. Sorry, Live Laugh Lovers. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. in knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Okay, Scott, we're back. The listener asked to be anonymous, so we'll call him Nate. He writes, why are we calling him Nate? Okay, fine. He writes, hey, Karen, Scott, for many years, my career focused on public service. I've always envisioned myself bettering society through the public sector. However, as I saw the growing impact of social media on public discourse, I decided I would have an even greater impact by working in trust and safety. Enter Elon. When I saw how the work of great people at Twitter was erased within less than a month, I was reminded of the inherent limits of public impact through

private sector. Now I'm a professional crossroads and need to decide if I continue pursuing a career in trust and safety or shift back to the public sector. Setting aside the question of pay, do you think a career as a private sector employee can indeed be focused on bettering society? Thanks, Nate. This is not Yoel Roth, who I just interviewed, who kind of said the same thing on the subject of Elon. We also heard from listeners who wanted to know if they should leave their job at SpaceX or sell their Tesla stock because they don't want to support or be associated with Musk. Leaving aside Musk, I'll answer that last question last. But I think that when people buy things, that's who's owned it. I left News Corp eventually, largely because Rupert Murdoch, I think, is a menace. I really do. And I did not like working

with him. And it made me uncomfortable every day after he bought the company. And he got worse and worse, of course. And of course he was going to, I should have left right away. But I do think you can do good things at private sector companies. I do. I think we make great content here. I think I like working for Jim Bankoff at Vox Media.

I like Vox Media. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think we are doing things that make people happy, that better them, that change their lives, change their thinking. We can hear it from a lot of our fans and stuff. And public sector is hard because you don't have control over it.

You have much more control in the private sector. Honestly, I would start a company if I wanted to really impact things rather than be at the beck and call of whoever buys your company like Elon did. And I do think trust and safety people at Twitter and elsewhere have thankless tasks. They're the custodians of the internet, and they often get slapped for the wrong things they do. But boy, it takes a lot of commitment. I was with a lot of them down at the Knight Foundation Forum Conference where I interviewed EOL. And they really do care about safety of people. So I think that's a great thing that you do. Subject to Elon, like I said, I didn't want to work for Rupert Murdoch and I left and I was able to make that decision because I was lucky, but others are not. So, if you work in a factory and you can't afford it on a case-by-case basis. I think there's private companies where you can, Nate sounds very socially conscious.

You know, I think driving a lot of value and building economic security for others is a good thing to do. And sometimes if you're interested in trust and safety, you can, you know, compliance is important at investment banks. The person managing risk, ensuring there's not a run on it. I mean, that person's adding public value.

Figuring out a way to make a shit ton of money such that the corporation pays a lot of taxes to fund our Navy and our parks, there's value there. Going to work for a nonprofit that's very focused on whatever it might be, teen depression or loneliness or Alzheimer's research, whatever it might be. There's ways to add value across private and public. When kids come to me and say, should I go to work for Amazon or the Red Cross? And I say, well, do you have offers from either? And they're like, no. And I'm like, then just come back to me when there's a choice here. What I would suggest to Nate is that he pursues both. And what he'll find is his decision will be more driven based on the situation, who's with the organization, the role, whether he has sponsorship there, whether it seems like a nice environment, the compensation there. Compensation

has come up in nonprofit. There's been a lot of giving, so they're professionalizing, if you will. So I think it's more about assembling a kitchen cabinet of smart, thoughtful people to know you, know what you value, and then looking at the specific situation. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think you have to just decide where, I think there's contributing in a different way than other things. Honestly, I do, I'm very happy when this whole Spotify thing came out and people have been writing us on Twitter and elsewhere about how they listened to us, whatever, 2,000 minutes. And they seem happy. They seem we made them happy.

And that's great. I feel great. People feel smarter and happier. I think that's contributory and not negative necessarily, but helpful. So, you know, wherever you go. But I'm sorry what happened there. I know having talked to a lot of trust and safety people there, they certainly weren't perfect before Elon,

but I feel bad because I really do think a lot of these people are very much committed to public safety, and I appreciate that. Anyway, here's a good one for someone who's just celebrated a birthday. I'll read. Dear Karen Scott, I'm 51, fairly successful in my field. I feel mid-career more valuable than ever and hardly headed for retirement. After 30 years of creative services, the change is overdue. On the theme, Bob won second act, comes after the first, which started around age 50. For him, he must have had many preparatory career chapters. Would you care to muse on what 50 was for you in career terms? Did the years leading up to 50 help

you see your value in new ways? Oh, interesting, Scott. That's a good question. Yeah, 50 for me was big because, but it wasn't around what I want to do with my life. You know, I've always worked to make money. And I know that people find that offensive or, I don't know, sad. I think you like to enjoy yourself too, Scott. Well, but I'm in a position now where I can literally do what I want because I didn't do what I wanted and I worked really hard at it to make money and get economic security so I could have these kind of options now. But through most of my life, zero to 30, I was broke and had negative net worth because of student

loans and graduate school. 30 to kind of 40 or 45, I made a lot of money, but it was very volatile and insecure, whether it was divorce or the dot-com or the great financial recession. I always felt financially insecure trying to fashion a living with kids in New York. And then I sold my company and had a fairly big exit in my late 40s. And it just kind of changed everything for me. I felt like I could exhale for two or three years. This kind of changed everything for me. I felt like I could exhale for two or three years. And then, so a lot of it comes down to what are your options?

But if you're at 51 and fairly successful and have some economic security, you might be in the position to have what is one of the great, you know, really one of the wonderful things about our society. And that is you might have the options to go, what would give me a reward? Do I want to teach? Do I want to write? Do I want to start my own business? Do I want to wind down and spend more time with my kids? Do I want to start volunteering?

Our society produces more of that optionality than any society in the world. It does indeed. Yep. And you have the choice. You should make it. And you might enjoy doing a new company. I'm going to answer this one. I'm about to turn 60 actually very soon in a very short time. And I have to say, I have never been more successful or more energized about work. And I like what I do. I think one of the things I

decided, and it was well before 50, I think it was when I turned 40, right after I had Louis, I have been more successful since I had kids than ever I turned 40 right after I had Louis. I have been more successful since I had kids than ever, which is interesting because I had more time before, decided more time. I think what Scott said is absolutely true. You have choices. And one of the things that I have done a lot is make my choices. Like if I don't like something and everything I do now is based on that. If I'm not having a good time, see you later. Hasta luego kind of thing. And I just, that's how I make my choices. And the minute I don't like it

or it becomes, it feels like I'm doing it for the money or this and that, I don't do it. And so I think turning 50 wasn't that because I think I've made amazing things since I turned 50, like new things, fresh things. And so I definitely have always seen my value. I don't, when I was 20, I knew I was good. And so I definitely have always seen my value. When I was 20, I knew I was good. And so I don't think you have to be an age, but when you finally do

know you have a set of skills, you should appreciate them and stop asking, saying I'm sorry or saying you're not worth it and use that leverage if you have that leverage. So I don't know. I think you should do what makes you happy. By the way, when you're 51, guess what? Let me just give you some news. You're going to be dead in 30, 40 years. So you should do what you want. You know what? What you just said is really powerful. I refer to it as atheism. Recognizing the finite nature of life is incredibly motivating. And you also said something else. I don't think I would be nearly as successful or economically secure as I am unless I'd had children. And not because they've given me reward or security or perspective. It's because they fucking freaked me out in terms of how much money I would need to make to offer them the life and the security that I think they deserved.

I never think of that. And I started working my – I really got my shit together when my first kid came marching out of my girlfriend. I'm like, I got to get serious about this whole career and economics thing. I found that very motivating. But you can also really evaluate, if you're blessed,

and there's other things in economics, but if you're economically secure and at the age of 50, and I hope this is true, or 51, that you have people who love you. You have the ability to do things, like being able to say what you want, even if it risks sanctioning by your colleagues. It risks you getting fired. That, for me, has been almost as rewarding as any economic thing.

Same, same. Because a lot of times people, and we're both bringing this back to ourselves, but people will call me and say, I love how provocative you are. I want to be more fearless. And I'm like, don't. Because if you make a misstep,

it could cost you your career. And you're not at a stage where you can take those kinds of risks. I am. Yeah. If Vox or anyone else. I don't know. I've always been like this. I would tell people to, well, let me go this way. You've navigated that. I can do it now as a consultant, as someone running companies with VCs, with someone who wasn't economically secure.

I could not say the kinds of things I say publicly on a risk-adjusted basis. It would not be a smart thing to do. Yeah, that's true. And so you got to not only evaluate what you want to do professionally, but how do you want to acquit yourself personally in your professional life? Yeah, be who you are. Be genuine to yourself. I think that's what Scott's talking about. One of the things, you have to also do what you want. Honestly, I remember several people when I started working with you, Scott, they're like, Scott's going to ruin, Scott's too provocative. He's too controversial. He's going to ruin your reputation. I was like, go fuck yourself. I'm not, I know. I literally, I had several people. You're the one with the Kia. You're bringing my rep down. Emily Ratajkowski would be dating me

right now if it wasn't for that Pontiac Leaf you're driving. I am serious. Several people are now like, you and Scott are the best ever. And I found their text, which is like, Scott's going to make trouble for you because he says provocative things. I said, this is exactly why I like him, because he manages to say interesting things unlike you. Anyway, I'm just saying, just do what you want. Do what you want. You have the luxury of doing that in this society.

And he's right. In America, you can't do it other places. You can't do it in China. And remember what Kara want. Do what you want. You have the luxury of doing that in this society. And he's right. In America, you can't do it other places. You can't do it in China. And remember what Kara said. It's all going to be over fast. What other people think really doesn't matter because guess what? They're going to be dead really soon too. This podcast is going to last longer than Scott and I.

Anyway, here's a question that Scott's not going to like. We'll do it for the fans. This comes via email. I'll read. Hi, Scott. Kara, love the show. But I got to say, Scott has spent a lot of time bemoaning Jack Dorsey's half-assed reign at Twitter. Now the sale is complete, investors are paid,

and the new billionaire is on the throne. I have to ask, isn't Jack Dorsey the greatest CEO ever? Jack took a wildly unremarkable product. Twitter was barely functioning under his divided attention while returning Square investors mad cash and sold a flaming bag of poo for three to four times its fair value. Actually, he wasn't there when it sold, FYI. What other CEO has done for that? For investors, I think you owe Jack an apology. Cheers. No, I love you. This is bullshit, but I love you. Go ahead, Scott. So, no, you're wrong. Jack-

So, no apology, right? Apology. I apologize to, on behalf of the board of Twitter, who put up with a ridiculous situation that took the company sideways because this person spoke in hushed tones and was thoughtful. And again, this idolatry of innovators kicked in, and he made the company vulnerable to a megalomaniac who came in and fucked up the company. Yes, he did. He also invited Musk in, I think. Jack has enough sense. Notice how quiet Jack's gone. Notice how quiet Jack's gone. Even no hushed tones, just quiet. The notion that an individual can run a company like this part-time and not set it up for failure,

a lot of what's gone on here, a lot of the anxiety, the tumult, and the sheer wreckage can be laid at Jack's feet. That is correct. All right, there you have it. No, he's not going to be apologizing, Noah. I think he's 100% right. I think the reason it is where it is is because of his reign. I have to say, I thought Dick Costolo did a much better job in comparison, and it was

headed in the right direction, but it's always been a troubled company. But Jack's reign was very bad for the company. It missed a lot of opportunities under many, you know. Anyhow, Scott, next one. Can you read it? Our last piece of mail isn't a question. It's a good story, a little long,

but I think you'll like where it goes. Go ahead, Scott. I'm the CEO of a small firm. I find tremendous value in listening to Kara and Scott for their perspectives on business management and tech. However, it was another one of their conversations that helped save a life this past weekend when I took my kids to see a football game in Atlanta. As we were entering, I noticed an elderly couple. The woman seemed to be struggling.

I reached the couple just in time to catch the woman as she collapsed. My 14-year-old son ran and pulled over a large cooler for her to sit on while her husband found help. I began speaking with the lady, and she explained that one of her legs went numb and something was wrong with her tongue. I noticed that she couldn't move one arm, and I immediately knew she was having a stroke. I grabbed the two ticket workers and told them to get an ambulance now. I told her husband to call 911 as well. Even though we were in the stadium, time was of the essence. I knew that her best shot was to get to the hospital. I just stayed and hugged her and told her she'd be okay, trying to keep her calm. The EMT arrived and we got her out on a

stretcher. I texted with the husband and he confirmed that she did have a stroke and was recovering in the ICU. My kids understandably freaked out and asked how I knew what to do. I said I didn't, but the woman on the podcast I listened to had a stroke and I was able to recognize the symptoms, stay calm, and know that the faster she got to the hospital, the greater chance of recovery. I'm not sure what you think about when you talk about the story of your stroke. Maybe it's to remind you of how strong you are or how far your recovery has come. Maybe it's to remind you that life is important. Last Sunday, your story helped me recognize a dangerous situation and hopefully help a couple that needed it.

I'm not sure what the latest is with that couple. I will check in a couple days. But thanks. That's a great win for the week, Victor. Kara? Yeah, it's amazing. It makes me tear up, I have to say. I'm glad.

See? We're not all cancel culture. I mean, it's really important, don't you think? I don't know what to say. It makes me cry. It's a lovely story, and that's a blessing for him, that he was in a position at the right place and the right time to help other people.

That's a blessing for him. You know, there's been a lot around the stroke thing because of Fetterman and this and that, and I definitely got beat up by assholes because I defended someone who had a stroke and was recovering and giving them. I knew the voters of Pennsylvania weren't going to put up with that shit. You know, insulting people who are trying their best to get better and who had the grace to get up again afterwards. And things like this, knowing this is one of the reasons we do this. We help people understand things. Sometimes we make tasteless jokes, but we also impart a lot of important information for people. And this is wonderful. I hope that

woman got better. Stroke is a very difficult thing. And in fact, it's totally changed my life. I don't know, Scott, I don't think you've had a health, a big health crisis, have you? No, I've been blessed that way. I have not. Yeah. Yeah. I think not. Yeah, yeah. I think it really does put things in a perspective. You should always have things in perspective when you enter the health crisis. We sort of wander through this world thinking we're totally invulnerable

and we're not at all. And much of the world doesn't wander through their world like that. They know they're in danger and different things. And so I think it's a really great thing. This is really, it made me cry there for a second. Just for people that aren't aware, I'm actually having heart surgery in December to put the hole in my heart to bed and cover it and seal it, which is what caused my stroke. And a little bit nervous, but not really. The strides in medical, I'll report about it once it's done. But the strides in medicine have been so amazing. I'm very eager not to have that happen again. And

so I think it's great. I think it's really great. Well, just keep in mind that the most dangerous thing about that surgery would be riding there in the Kia and also the lamest thing about that. The Kia's in DC. I'm getting driven there probably by Casey Newton, which will probably kill me. My brother is going to take me. By the way, kudos to my brother. He's going to take me to the surgery and he's going to be there with me. He played a key role in your stroke, right? He's the one that called it, absolutely, 100%.

And so I'm very glad that he's going to be there. He himself has medical challenges. He has muscular dystrophy and has handled it beautifully. And I think it's made him, I don't want to say it's made him a better person, but he's handled it beautifully. And it shows his goodness because the way he's handling it. Anyway. But the other thing about, the thing I thought about reading this, Victor, is what a gift to have your sons. To see you do that.

Yeah. To have your sons or... To see you do that. Yeah, but to see you take a leadership, to see you move to action, to see that you're smart, capable, and that you impact people's lives like that. I mean, dads, that's what dads want. We all dream of a situation where our kids get to see our character and our leadership. Your kids will bring up that story at your funeral. They will. They will. And just remember, if people don't know, there's a thing called FAST with strokes when you see them. It's an acronym to help you recognize a stroke. It's the letters F-A-S-T,

and it's face, arms, speech, and time. You can see the symptoms of acute stroke in someone else and find them as soon as possible. It often first happens in the face, then the arms, then speech, and you've got to move quickly. And those are the warning signs for doing that. So just so you know, there's lots of information on the internet about this, but I carry it with me, this fast thing for people to know if I'm having another one, for example. I don't expect to now, but still. Anyway, Scott, we'll take one more quick break, and we'll be back to give our end-of-year resolutions. Okay, Scott, we're back, and we're going to do some end-of-the-year resolutions now. Do you have one? I didn't, and then I read this. And the first thing that popped

into mind is I want to try and develop some behavioral tricks or figure out ways to slow time down. It is really, it's generally frightening for me how fast time is going. And I had my, like, my, whenever I'm feeling, not sad, but melancholy, I look through that, I do that Apple thing where they string together a bunch of photos and they theme them

and they play cheesy music in the background. Literally yesterday, my 15-year-old was a little boy. Now he's like this, like kind of like young, angry man roaming around the house. And it just, that 36 months, it would happen between the ages of 12 and 15. And I have another 12 year old. And if we had it not been for pictures, I can barely point to things in those three years. Time is just, years have become seasons. Seasons have become weeks.

And I'm going to try and do some research around how to slow time or the passage of time down. Because, Kara, it's just gone too fast. Yes. I mean, you remind me of the great Shakespeare quote. Do you know the Shakespeare quote on that? I don't. Since you're in England? I wasted time and now doth time waste me.

For now hath time made me his numbering clock. My thoughts are minutes with sighs. They jar their watches unto mine. The outward watch where to my finger like a dial's point is pointing still in cleansing them from tears. Now, sir, the sound that tells what hour is are clamorous groans which strike upon my heart,

which is the bell. So sighs and tears and groans show minutes, times and hours. It's from Richard II. I love that. That reminds me of that passage, there once was a girl from Nantucket. Never mind.

Never mind. Never mind. Essentially, it's saying, hurry up because time's a waste. Get on it. So that's a really good one. I think that I like to have, do you have a practical resolution? Like, just like I want to do more running or anything like that. No, I'm in good shape.

My family's healthy. You know, we just moved to London. But I love our listeners. And I don't know if I'm inciting a riot here. Is it meditation? Like, what is... I don't see you meditating. Do you know how to slow time?

I don't. Do you know how to slow time? No, I speed up myself. That's what I do. Every decision I make in my life is, I'm going to be dead in 50 years. That's a deathbed, though. So I do the same thing. Times are wasting.

Times are wasting. I do it all the time. And I often say to people when they're in some weird funk or something, not a funk, a depressing- Snap out of it. Snap out of it. No, I say a version of that. I'm like, it's an Anne Lamott phrase.

She was being sort of furthering away, talking to a friend of hers who was dying of cancer. And her friend who was dying of cancer ended up dying relatively quickly after this looked at her. Well, she was on some dumb thing. And she looked at her and said, you don't have that kind of time. And it was really, she stopped talking. She stopped the stupidness. I have a lot of friends who are doing stupid, sometimes stupid things. And I'm always like, you don't have that kind of time.

You really don't. Anyhow, I'm going to do mine. I get the same one every year. I want to finish my book this year. That's so I can get it off my chest kind of thing, get it off my back. And it's really funny, actually. I have a great, someone who's helping me

move faster on that, which is great. I shouldn't say her name yet, but I will at some point. And for the more esoteric thing, I give the same one every year. Everyone tries to do these deep and meaningful things they're going to be and be like and this and that. And I always say I hope it rains more this year. And I mean that in a, like, not just a drought position. I just love rain. And I like rain. I hope it rains. Rain's always good, not when it's flooding and stuff like that, but when it's good. Raining is one of my favorite times of day, or my favorite weathers, when it's not flooding and ruining people's lives in that regard. But I hope it rains for a lot.

Well, Cara, come visit us in London. Rains a lot. I can help you there. Rain slows you down. You slow time down for me, and I'll give you rain. No, can I just tell you, rain does slow you down, You slow time down for me and I'll give you rain. No, can I just tell you, rain does slow you down, doesn't it? It makes you go, oh. I would say it kind of makes me depressed.

I'm not sure it slows time down. All right, you need to get out. You got to, yeah, I can't believe you live in London. That's my thing. That's really, my sister-in-law lived in Seattle. She couldn't take the rain. She didn't like it. And she's not a particularly depressive person, but it depressed her.

I remember. So, well, enjoy. Have the tea is good. The crumpets are good. didn't like it and she's not a particularly depressive person but it depressed her I remember so well enjoy have the tea is good the crumpets are good and I'll be there to cheer you up I'm coming in to London in January

and beautiful time of year coming in we're gonna have some fun I gotta organize that the Americans are coming in

the Americans are invading again and because we're good at that we're gonna have a good time with our British friends

and you can slow time as our producer said by going to a cricket match Scott so if British friends. And you can slow time, as our producer said, by going to a cricket match, Scott. So if you need to do that, that's their suggestion. Anyway, those are some great questions.

They were lovely. This has been a great year, Scott. And you, again, you have been a big part of that. I've really enjoyed the time. Not a bit of it is wasted, which is a really big thing for me to say because a lot of people waste my time.

Well, we don't have enough time for that, Cara. We don't have enough time for that. We don't have no more time. Send us more. If you've got questions you're curious about, go to nymag.com slash pivot and submit it for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Scott, that's the show.

The year's almost over, but we aren't done. We'll have more episodes of Pivot to get through the holidays, so stay tuned. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Ernie Andretat engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next Tuesday for another breakdown of all things tech and business. You don't have time for that.