Pivot - Midterm Map Wars, AirPods Revamp, and Trump Phone Grift

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Kara and Scott discuss ABC pushing back against the FCC and how the escalating redistricting wars could reshape the midterms. Then, Apple’s AirPods with built-in cameras move closer to reality. Plus, the Trump Phone remains MIA, and the Pentagon releases a new batch of UFO files. Have a suggestion for Kara’s Scott-free August guest co-hosts? Leave us a message at 855-51-PIVOT, email [e-mail], or tag us on Bluesky or Threads. Watch this episode on the ⁠⁠Pivot YouTube channel⁠⁠. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcastofficial⁠⁠. Follow us on Bluesky at ⁠⁠@pivotpod.bsky.social⁠⁠ Follow us on TikTok at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcast⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. So I didn't hear from you yesterday on Mother's Day, but that's okay. I'm teasing.

Yeah, I can't even imagine the Royal Ascot Wedding Coronation Jubilee that is Mother's Day at your house. It is. It's great. I got so many things. It was really nice. Alex, I came back from Europe yesterday, and Alex was at the airport with balloons, and we took a picture in which I looked like a hobbit, which was sweet. And then the littles left me the most beautiful things they did. Clara did a whole book to me, Mudder, M-U-T-T-E-R, and Saul did this beautiful shrinky-dink, which I liked. I like a shrink-y-dink. And then decorated something, and then Louise called several times. So that was really funny. I just can't imagine the operational complexity of Mother's Day in your household. Seriously.

Three mothers. You got three mothers, an X, a ceramic mug business, and somebody definitely crying in a Subaru. That's Louis. It's got to be There's a lot of moving parts. There's a lot of mothers, yeah. No, I have to say, and also my mother, too. Oh, my gosh, I forgot lucky.

Yeah, Alex wins the thing. He went and made flower bouquets with my mother and went out with her for lunch. He hung out with Megan, which was great, and did all kinds of things, Megan, and then he met me. And he went out with Amanda and the kids to a playground and played with the kids

and helped her. And so Alex wins, mothers' day. I would have to say. That's nice. What did you do for your lovely wife? Not a lot. All I do is remind the boys to call her. Oh, wow.

That's what I do. I basically, a lot of angry texts of something along the lines of have you called the person that gave you life? Oh, nice. That kind of thing. Because men are just not that considered on their own. Yeah. There's this illusion that my boys are incredibly considerate thoughtful people in this household. Yeah.

And it's their prefrontal cortex walking around whose name is dad. Yeah, yeah, because they're here. Yeah. Yeah, do you have a good memory of your mother for Mother's Day? Since you're so close to, you were so close to. That's a generous question. I don't remember specific Mother's Days. I don't, yeah, I don't.

I remember them when I was out of the house and when I was older more than I remember them when I was younger. We used to do the same thing, Kara. Whenever it was anything resembling a celebration or birthday, We used to go to this deli on Western Boulevard called Junior's Dally. Oh, yeah, of course. And get the brisket dip, and my mom would get the locks eggs and onions. And inevitably, a waitress who had been there 20 years would just come over and talk about how much I'd grown.

And then we'd get Halva on the way out. Halva. Yeah. Wow. That's a nice memory. I love those. In any case, I'm back from Europe. I know you're concerned.

I was a Cambridge. Oh, you're back from Norway. No, I was in England. I was in London with Tina Brown. That's right. That's right. Then I went to Norway. We're big in Norway, Scott.

I have to tell you. It's good to know. Many fans in the Nordic Media days. They were great. That'll get us another 10 or 12 downloads. Well, there's only 5 million people in Norway. But I got to say, they're really good. But they were really great audience.

And then I was at Cambridge, at the Cambridge Union, which was really fun. I got to stay at King's College, which, you know, the punting boats and the beautiful lawns and the giant cathedrals and everything. It's quite a beautiful town, Cambridge. One of the things they're so obsessed with Trump, all these countries and the danger he poses. And they're all very concerned about these U.S. companies. And, you know, and sort of the feel is, are they colonizing us, you know, backwards colonization,

which is, I know a loaded word, but we're sort of extractors of their stuff. Anyway, it was really interesting to hear. I learned a lot by just hanging out with all these people from Europe. Yeah, my thesis is that London is going to boom over the next three years. and not for the right reasons, but my thesis is that there's been this enormous transfer of human and financial capital out of London into the Gulf. Even if you talk to kids who are about to graduate from college,

there'll be a few of them that are planning to go to Dubai. And my thesis is that, traditionally speaking, these masters of the universe from Europe who all migrated to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Riyadh, that in the last several weeks, their wives have been on their, taking their kids to school and seen an incoming projectile and then went home and said, we're out of here. I think that the kind of the veil of the veneer of security and safety, more security than safety, there's still exceptionally safe places to live, has been pretty badly punctured.

And I think that's going to have a dramatic reversal of the tides into Geneva, Milan, Madrid and London, most of all. Also, I hate to say it, but beautiful. Beautiful places. You know, the same thing, Al-Lena is happening. There's just more statistics out of San Francisco in terms of the recovery and everything else, which is interesting.

And, you know, just in real estate terms, I had someone, like, contact me to buy my house. Like, the housing market is now on fire. For all, for everyone's moved back, which is really, it's just an interesting shift of these people. And then they complain, you know, they complain and then they come right back.

Because they are the, I don't like to pick and choose places, but I have to say they really are the best places, these beautiful New York, San Francisco, London, Milan, they're just beautiful places to live and full of really interesting people. I don't know. Anyway, it just struck me. Look, I've been, as I said,

for the last 30 years, I've been molesting the earth for business and my reductive analysis of all regions, if I were described the world and where to live and for what reasons. America is still the best place to make money, and Europe is the best place to spend it. If you're in the making money part of your life, then you should absolutely figure out a way to get to the U.S. or one of 20 super cities where two-thirds of all economic growth will take place. It's better to be good in Shanghai than amazing in Melbourne. Actually, Australia is a pretty robust economy. But if you have the luxury of being a part of your life where you

have the disposable income and flexibility, it's very much. very hard to beat Madrid. It is a night. I was walking around thinking I could live here. Madrid, Paris, Oslo, in the Northern Europe in the summer. I was thinking, the south of France. Oh, maybe we'll just take a quick hop over to Capri or go check out the sites in Rome. Europe is fantastic.

Of course, you have to have money to do that. One of the thing that, though, there is sort of hanging over England is this, you know, the Starmer government is in real trouble. it's going into a multi-party system. And obviously the Nigel Farage group to restore, whatever the fuck they want to restore reform movement is really gaining power. But it's more like a fractured power,

like a many-party system. And if the conservatives are falling off the map, it's just they're very worried about Nigel Farage being the prime minister, that's for sure, a lot of people. Or else creating a situation where they can't form a government. because of too many different power centers. And then the greens are also gaining, which is interesting. Like, I don't, I am blissfully unaware of the UK politics,

but I would have, I think people would have a difficult time thinking of one person that's no more damage to the UK than Nigel Farage. I would agree. I would agree. If they pick him, boy, do they deserve what they get because this guy. I think if I were Starmer, I would be running on Baxit. They should absolutely rejoin the EU. It's a few more self-inflicted wounds than our entry into Iraq and also the UK.

He is a nefarious figure, and so, I don't know, so Putin close and just the whole thing. The whole, every bit of Navajo Farage is awful. I don't know where to turn in that way. Anyway, we should get to the news. This is a really interesting story. I thought, and I was paying attention to it was why the FCC's lone Democratic commissioners accusing the Trump administration of waging a, quote, sustained, coordinated campaign of censorship and control against ABC.

In a letter to Disney CEO, Josh Tomorrow, Anna Gomez said the FCC under Brendan Branda Carr has been weaponized to pressure of free and independent press and all media into submission. The letter comes after ABC accused the FCC of attempting to chill free speech, which it did, in a petition filed last week. That filing is tied to the FCC's probe into whether the view violated equal time rules when tennis, Texas Senate candidate James Telerico went on the show earlier this year. ABC argues if you got an FCC exemption in 2002 as a bona fide news interview program, which it is, and that ruling remains in effect today.

And, you know, as usual, Brenda has said so many things publicly that are really damning in terms of when they come to court, you know, as being such a suck-up to the Trump administration and not an independent person he's supposed to be. You can have his opinions about things, but it has made become more censorious than all. all the left he accuses them of and is making all manner business threats. It's interesting that Disney and ABC is pushing back rather hard under this new CEO, something probably, I suspect, Eiger wanted to do, but felt he couldn't at the time. But any thoughts on this? Well, yeah, they're learning. They have figured out that second Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump's cock has not paid off for them. No. Remember the economic warfare that DeSantis was trying to levy for political reasons? And it doesn't

pay, it doesn't pay to appease these guys. They did push back on DeSantis, if you recall. Remember, they sort of played games with him for a while. Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. Well, anyways, this is, they did not. That is correct. And now go to the legal veracity. This isn't, this isn't legal ambiguity. This is a government harassment campaign with an FCC seal on it. saying that the equal time probe or that the view violates equal time time, that basically essentially means Fox and Friends have been violating equal time for 25 consecutive years. This is just ridiculous. And then the lone FCC, or the lone Democrat on the FCC is a woman named Anna Gomez,

who essentially is yelling into a void while the institution continues to be weaponized. against the press. It's not, I mean, Commissioner Gomez basically can't even dissent. It's more like a hostage note when she writes her letters of dissent. So this is nothing but again, more weaponization of media or weaponization of our government agencies to try and squelch free speech. It's just insane when they talk about, I mean, all this bullshit that supposedly Democrats call for violence and the language they use. And Brenda is just making it worse by giving these stupid speeches with this smug little, you know, shit-eating grin that he always has on his face. And again, Brenda, I'm following you everywhere you go after you leave office, and I will make sure people understand what you did

constantly. This is, and I hate to say this, and it goes into our next story. Do you want to talk about gerrymandering? Yeah, we will, yeah. I can read, I mean, for people know, obviously, this got big press, has redistricting wars ramp up ahead of the midterms. Democrats are facing some major setbacks. The Virginia Supreme Court just struck down a voter-approved map that could have netted the Democrats up to four house seats. It's not over yet. We'll see it's going to go to the Supreme Court. But the Supreme Court, of course, did its business by weaking the Voter Rights Act and recent ruling, setting off redistricting pushes in several southern states.

Rovalkins could now have around 15 new winnable districts, but Trump's approval ratings are still a massive hurdle. As one Democratic strategists put it, Trump has the power to rig the maps, but he doesn't have the power to get his approval rating higher. It could slap back at them. It's really interesting. One of the long-shot options reportedly tossed around in Virginia lower the mandatory retirement for the state Supreme Court and replace. place the entire bench. I think there's a bunch of things they may have to do. But what's a real

shame is that now the Democrats are going to have to jurymander their states, which is not good for any, none of this is any good to be breaking this precedent of 10 years following the census to do this, what is essentially stealing. Just when you look at the map in Tennessee, it's insane. Like there's like people are 210 miles away from other voters, which is crazy. It's a crazy. It's a And it's all done to retain power, which I think they won't actually doing this. I think people are offended by having their votes stolen from them. Well, Democrats, and I agree with this, wanted to fight fire with fire or gerrymandering with gerrymandering and they lost both the map. And you could argue the moral high ground, although I think it was the right move. And you can't

argue with the fact the other side is destroying democracy. I mean, Tennessee is the template, right? There's two Democratic Congress people in 2020, Nashville and Memphis. Republicans redistricted Nashville in 2022, and now it's Memphis. The playbook is pretty straightforward here. They find a Democratic district, and they redraw the lines until it disappears. Now, I actually believe, I don't believe, I mean, a really interesting message in the right message for a candidate, specifically a presidential candidate. And right now, the only one actually talking about fucking issues is Rahm Emanuel. They're all just cosplaying Obama, hoping rhetorical flourish and talking about breaking bread with Jews and Muslims.

And we need to come together. Although, I have to say, Newsom got the job done in California. He, like, hit them hard and won. He fought back and he won. He fought the law and he won. Yeah. But we need structural reform. One, a really decent talking point in issue for a presidential candidate would be the following.

Within 90 days, I'm putting up for a vote in the Congress and the Senate to de-jerrymandered the entire United States. Six Republicans, six Democrats. We're going to use technology. It might be just as much as putting a grid on top of the United States map and saying, okay, it might be AI, whatever it is. But we need to de-jerrymander the United States. And then I think another structural form, and it goes to a larger issue, a lot of the world's problems right now can be reverse engineered to old men who won't fly. fucking leave. It infects, it creates fascists who find reasons to deny democracy. It creates public investment that lacks investment in young people and children. It creates a demographic

collapse because young people don't get money because old people keep voting themselves more and more money. I see it in academia, young academics are leaving the field because there's no fucking room for him because a guy who was the bomb in 1988 in Gapwin accounting won't fucking leave because We give them tenure about the time they become totally unproductive. There needs to be a shedding, a healthy shedding of skin. I have self-imposed term limits on boards. You need to move on. And one of those structural reforms should be term limits and age-gating for the most important people

over the long term of the United States, and that is our Supreme Court. Well, at both at the same time or one or the other. Yeah. For God's sakes, if you're 72, your prefrontal core, your brain is shrinking. your brain starts shrinking at 45. By the time you're 72, most people have a very difficult time with cognitive function. And I'm sure there's exceptions that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was very smart at 80. She should have been forced to retire at 72, as should the rest of them. You need young thinking. You need people who occasionally have a fucking child in the house so they can relate to the issues facing young people. You don't want to pack the court because all that means is when a Republican gets in, they're going to expand the court from 12 to 30 people under their watch. You need age gating and you need term limits. But more than anything, a great talking point for a Democrat right now would be, I am going to de-germaner the U.S. within 90 days.

I'm going to put a vote up and you can find out who is not up for true democracy here. Right, absolutely. I mean, one of the things, it's just when you look at these maps, you know, at some point, obviously gerrymandering around forever, but these are like the Republicans are committing unnatural acts. They really are. It looks like a weird sex position the way they have drawn these things. And it's grotesque.

It's grotesque. And you know what it was, I have to say, those images from Tennessee with those fat, white, old men laughing at young, very vibrant, interesting black legislators. Like, you're nothing more. It really did look like the Confederate South. They looked like the Confederate South. It was aversion. And then laughing, you all, by the way, y'all are going to die of a heart attack, right? relatively soon because you look like you could get out for a walk or two. But one of, it just was,

the visuals were so like these old racist fucks. And I'm not sure that's, and then at the top of the heap is Trump, who looks like, who was cognitively. I keep saying this, Scott, we have to, you know, we did it with Biden. I think we have to zero in on his cognitive difficulties that just continue. And today, Dr. Oz and the other one, Britt, Katie Britt, were like talking to him like he was a toddler, like a toddler when he was something or the old. Mr. President, it's like you talk to someone in old folks home. He's old. Age-gating. Again, age-gating. No one should be allowed to run for president if when elected they're going to be older than 70 or pick a number. Have neurologists decide. But at some point, neither Biden nor Trump should be entrusted with overseeing the Sixth Fleet

or NAFTA agreements or trying to stay up until four in the morning to get the votes they need, whatever it is. This is a young person's job. Agreed. You know, when I said that to you, I think you were surprised. You were like, hmm, when I said, I'm leaving at 72. I have 72, and that's it. That's it. I'm gone. I'm off to Cambridge. That's the number you fixed, 72. Yes, I bought myself a cap in Snowway. I bought myself a cap. I love it. I'll send you a picture. I, yes, that is it, 72, and I'm gone. I'm gone. Like, see you later. Maybe I'll sit and write historical novels from my cottage in Cambridge, but I'm gone, like, gone, gone. I'm pretty sure your third wife's going to be Susan Collins. I think you're going to be one of those tech people that goes MAGA on us.

No, Susan Collins. And I'm up for you, Mary. By the way, if a man and a woman need a marriage license to get married, what do two women need to get married? A liquor license. Oh, very funny. I don't think that's sexist. See, I think it's profane and vulgar, but I don't think it's sexist. I don't think it's funny is the issue I have. It's not that funny. It's not that funny. Anyway, these redistricting, I think he cannot fight the polls.

The polls are so bad. Everyone doesn't like him. That's one thing I did, the message I gave to people. I was like, he is widely, he has his group that like him, but I got to tell you, you got to watch the cracks in MAGA and you got to watch the polling, which is everyone is sick to fuck of this guy. And he is cognitively disabled. I'm going to say that in every single show until the 20, past the 20th.

That's the cold comfort that we as progressives are serving ourselves up this morning, and that is that Trump can rig the maps, but he can't rig his approval rating. It will infuriate people. That's the hope that basically segregating voting again, with taking a rate, neutering certain parts of the Voters' Rights Act, this ridiculous, corrupt gerrymandering that it'll come back to Hahnemann vives. And my fear is the following. Okay, tell me, because I have a few, too.

I believe that America is still highly sexist, highly luxist, and opts for a person who may be wrong more often than not, but is effective versus people who are right and ineffective. And this is the key distinction between the Democrats and the Republicans right now, is the Republicans are wrong in being highly effective, and Democrats are right and virtuous and totally fucking ineffective. I'm not so sure. This whole thing with the ballrooms. and the weird thing with the weird title base and et cetera. It's just getting like... I don't think people vote based on a ballroom. No, I know they don't, but it's part of the whole crazy old man thing.

One thing that I will say, I was with a bunch of cyber experts, and the two things they did point out anything correctly is one, the Russians are preparing to attack during the midterms, you know, in Trump's favor. As they, as recent studies have shown, they did obviously against both Clinton and parents. I'm sorry they're going to attack. You know, online. Like a lot of online. Cyber.

It's not so cyber and information fuck uppery, essentially. And then the second thing is, I sat next to one guy who's an American who was talking about, who's obsessed with Steve Bannon, and he feels they're going to try to, and Trump has sort of talked about it a little bit, put, go to 80 districts that matter and put martial, you know, martial law in place or create all manner of ice and proud boys, et cetera. So if you listen to Steve Bannon, he does talk about this. And I think a couple of the cyber people were paying a lot of attention to Steve Bannon and what he's doing. And, you know, that sack of, that meat sack of rumpled whatever is very effective in many ways, speaking effective. Although I can't believe he keeps hanging on, looking at the way he does.

Anyway, let's go on a quick break when we come back, a game-changing feature coming to Apple's AirPods. Support for this show comes from Harvey A.I. The future of law is agentic, not just tools that assist, but AI agents that navigate complex matters. Harvey was built on legal agents that analyze draft and execute with precision. But great lawyers don't just complete tasks, they strategize. That's why Harvey created agents that can do the work from end to end. They build a plan, pull from secure data sources, run sub-agents in parallel, and draft the work product ready for your review.

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The cameras would help Siri understand what's around you so you could ask questions about objects, landmarks, or directions in real time. The new AirPods are expected to look similar to AirPods Pro, but with slightly longer stems to fit the camera hardware. This is astonishing, I think. Apple originally wanted to launch the AI wearable sooner, but delays since upgraded Siri pushed the timeline back. You will, of course, lose 50 pairs of these, Scott. 50. 50.

By the way, this has no pods in it because I can't find them. Oh, my gosh. Jesus. You did. I can attest in Scott's New York apartment, there's so many air pod cases everywhere. And there's like one air pod in them. Some are never been opened. It's really, it's funny.

I love those things. So talk about this because one of, there's, they're obviously privacy because a lot of people have been pushing back on the meta glasses, which sell just okay. They're popular, but not that popular. So talk a little bit about this because there is a privacy issue here, like people looking out. At the same time, it's inevitable you're going to have these heads-up displays in some way. And this is a version of heads-up display that isn't in your face, which I think is more effective that it's in your ear, of a camera in your ear. I love your thoughts on this because you have big thoughts on visual, like heads-up displays.

Well, as much as I hated mixed reality headsets and the actual. Oculus, I love this. And it goes back to a very anthropological thing. What is harder for people to adapt to when they lose their vision or they lose their hearing? A vision, I guess. But it's not seeing. Hearing, okay. As a matter of fact, when your hearing goes, you stop processing words and you become more, this is going to sound strange. Well, it's not strange. People have a much more difficult time maintaining societal contact, relevance, and relationships when their hearing starts to go as opposed to their vision starting to go. You're hearing, the last sense to go when you die is hearing.

You're supposed to, when people pass, you're supposed to keep telling them that you love them. They're supposedly, that's literally the last sense to go. And I think it's the most underrated of the senses. We have over-invested in visuals and under-invested in hearing. AirPods, if they were a distinct company, just AirPods would be a Fortune 50 company. And what is this, what is Apple doing here?

they're turning your ears into eyes and sending the footage you know, unfortunately they might be sending the footage to Cupertino, but the AI wearable race is now happening. What's interesting, though, is it's not happening where people thought it was going to happen. It's happening

in their ear canal. So META has ray bands. Apple has AirPods. Google probably has some glassing. I don't know what they're calling it this week. They originally had contact lenses. Remember a long time? We broke a story about them working on contact lenses with

visuals in them, but go ahead. The problem here, I think it's a great idea, and I'll buy one. The problem is, at Apple, the hardware is always ready before the software. And they wanted to launch this sooner, but Siri has, is probably one of the worst tech products of the last 10 years. It is. It really is. And Apple, I mean, think about it.

Apple has the world's best supply chain and the world's most embarrassing AI assistance. It is. It's so bad. I hate Siri. If you think about... I hate Siri. I mean, essentially, AirPods is the envisioner right now with cameras, is essentially because of a very weak AI assistant overlay, it's like a Lamborghini chassis waiting for an engine that works. So the hardware will be the best looking hardware, the best operating hardware. The problem will be the AI overlay. And I told you what I believe. They have to get it right. I think they're going to shit can Siri and license it to someone else for tens of billions of dollars. Yeah, why not? Just make it good. Like, I am constantly, Siri call Scott or Siri, you know, text Scott or something. And it never works. It sometimes works. And it just, it should work every single fucking time. But what if it was Gemini? What would, what would, Gemini needs to catch up? What would Gemini pay Tim Cook or the new guy to design something? To say, we're your default AI. Look, Siri just talk to me, even though I didn't want to go away, Siri.

I think they're in the poll position here. I think the most elegant move to massively. throw $10, $20 billion a year to the bottom line would be to have a bake-off and say, one of you is going to be the intel inside of Apple. That's kind of a big thing to give up, though. But they're not good at it, just like with maps. They're just not good at it. They're fine.

They give it up and search, and it worked out well for them. Yeah, exactly. Let me ask you a physical question. So when AirPods, people do not remember this. When AirPods first came out, people made fun of the look of it. You remember everyone, you look like an alien, you look like you're wearing earrings for men, and then everyone just loves them, right?

And they fall out of your ear. There was all manner. Now, if they're even longer with these like stems, it could look odd. But it seems to me the best solution is the in-the-ear, AirPod looking like things, not over the ear,

not around the neck, over the head, except, you know, I'm on an airplane. I wear, you know, a pair of really good noise-canceling headphones, but that's different. So you think that's okay. And the privacy issues,

you don't have an issue with the people, it can see everybody, and it's recording, presumably. Well, that is a big issue. I haven't thought that through, right? Because you're not supposed to be taking pictures of people's kids, the surveillance.

Government, government, you go into the White House. Uploading your data, your whereabouts. But no one creates tech hardware that is a better signaling device than Apple. And pulling out your iPhone, I've always said, pulling out your iPhone is like pulling out an Amics Black Card, but for a billion people, not 10 million. It says that you get it. It says

you're one of the seven most wealthiest people on the planet. It says you're probably in the creative arts industry. It just, it's, it is incredible signaling. I wear my AirPods. If I'm at a conference and I just need to get somewhere without getting, without speaking to people, or I'm just feeling exhausted by people, I just put my AirPods on, uh, in and I act like I'm talking to somebody, like I'm speaking to myself. I know that trick. But let me just say one of the things. I like to not look at my iPhone anymore. I like, like, I use my watch quite a bit, but it's not good enough. And I use my, if my AirPods were better, I would not pull my phone out at all. 100%. You know, that's the thing. So I think this is really interesting. Another interesting

piece of tech, and we're very tech heavy today, SpaceX's chipmaking project in Texas will have an initial price tag with at least $55 billion and could eventually grow to $119 billion, according to a public hearing notice. The project called TerraFab will create chips to power AI for SpaceX and Tesla. I think This is a smart move by Elon. SpaceX is asking for tax breaks for the project, of course, which will be discussed at a hearing next month, and Texas will definitely give it to them, because that's what Texas does.

They bend over, speaking of bending over. SpaceX is, of course, preparing to go public with one of the largest IPO offerings in June. To me, more than the robotics focus, this is really important. I mean, the way they do energy is sort of rapacious to the people living in the areas they're living in, and it's getting a lot of pushback.

But the idea of your own chips, all these companies really have to be in that game, seems like, and it's important. Elon really does know this. I don't think he's as highly technical as he makes himself out to be, but he does understand this is the heart of it. I agree. This is a really smart move. And it's one of the most interesting, and it's also, quite frankly, it's fundraising. It's going to be a big slide in his roadshow for SpaceX, IPO. They, you know, they're talking about a $60 billion chip fabrication plan, tariff,

Fab, and it would be bigger than the biggest one in the U.S. right now is a $65 billion plan from TSMC. So the world's most advanced chipmaker with 50 years of experience, Elon is trying to out TSMC, TSMC. So it creates, he's very good. He and Trump are both obsessed with being in your fucking face every day, and they're very good at it. And so this is, it may, I'm not, I think it's going to happen. The guy is a big. Exactly. Like X-A-I went nowhere. It may or may not. He may not be very good at this. It doesn't matter. It is a great. This guy is a big thinker. He's bold. He's pulled off some incredibly big bold.

This is the right direction. Yeah. Let me say he did surrender X-A-I by doing the anthropic deal. Just everybody's left. He's not going to win here. He could win in this. And I think he probably might. This is a better focus for him. Speaking of focuses from French prosecutors are summoning Elon and X's former CEO, Linda Yakorino. Oh, Yakarino. Where did you go? She's doing some health company. To face preliminary criminal charges into X. The investigation includes charges of child pornography and sexualized deep fake. It was interesting when I was in Europe, they were like, oh, he's not going to look. It's not going to go anywhere. I don't really care. I'm glad a government is doing it, right? Because

ours certainly wouldn't. And they should, they should face an investigation of what was happening there at X doing all this. Who made the decisions about these child pornography and sexualized deep fake creations? like to know, and I'm glad a government is pursuing it. I don't even care if they win. I'm glad they're doing it. That's my feeling. There you go. More power to them. At some point, big tech executives, their flight pattern is going to look like gerrymandered because they're not going to be able to go over the airspace. The world, we forgive these founders, especially during a Trump administration for the economic growth. Yeah, these sociopaths, that's the word I would use.

Yeah, but we are, we are neck gainers from big tech. We just are in the U.S. They still should pay the price for stuff like this. I agree. That's not to say we shouldn't hold them accountable. It's not to say that shouldn't be subject to the same rules and regulation as other industries. But if you had a red button to push and do away with all big tech, you wouldn't want to do it. And for all the problems and externalities, there isn't a single nation in the world with presented with the opportunity. Wouldn't say, put your headquarters here.

The problem is, you know, the big tech, I don't think Italy is a net gainer from big tech. The U.S. is. but I'm not sure other nations are. Yeah, they are. And so a lot of these nations are doing the math and saying, you've got it at our media companies, you don't pay that many taxes here. You haven't really increased employment a lot.

You're just creating tremendous disruption. And sexualized deep fakes. Yeah, and also you now appear to be an existential threat to our kids' emotional and physical well-being. We're not down with, you know, the idolatry of innovators for a lot of good reasons and some bad has totally kind of infected or overwhelmed the U.S. The worm has turned a little bit, AI's way down,

people are realizing what a negative impact this has had on our children, and then going much bigger, it's manifesting itself in terms of being ground zero for frustrations around income inequality. But these other nations just aren't that impressed by these guys. They're like, okay, you broke a law, we're going to charge you. Yeah, I like the activity. And I think, as you said, a long time ago, early in our relationship,

someone has to do a park walk on whether it's chatbots and kids dying or something like that. Someone has to go to jail. They won't, but I like the effort by these governments. And I don't think it's, I think someone needs to investigate how they made these decisions about sexualized deep fakes and child pornography on whatever service that does and what they did to stop it or not stop it. I think it's important for public to know. There was a guy, I think he was a McKinsey partner on the board of Goldman, and he took

insider information and traded on it, he went to jail. Think about what's happening in the Trump administration around oil prices. Think about what's happening in tech in terms of teen, self-cutting and depression among teen and being weaponized. You said, you expect the Russians to cyber attack us? They've been cyber attacking us. Yes, I know. They use these poorest platforms that are totally focused on shareholder value. They create lists of people who are pro-Ukraine or people who are polarizing and they infect their comments and the people's perception of them, they diminish their credibility, and they create fights everywhere to try and atomize this. We've been, we're attacked every day and the ultimate Trojan horse is Big Tech who charges them a small fee to go sit

inside the Trojan horse and start attacking America from within. That's correct. And by the way, they'll shift in a dime. I don't know if you notice, suddenly David Sachs is like, Anthropics is going to be really successful after needlessly attacked. I heard all of a sudden he likes Anthropic. Oh, God. He's such a... Let me just tell you, we were right about that one. Like, immediately when they're back, he took...

Because he's losing the fight over unfettered AI, and they're just better, that's all. Anyway, he was lying the first time about when they attacked him. And for a government official to do that to an American company without any proof is really grotesque. I don't mind if there's proof, but in that case it was because he wanted to feather his own. nest. Anyway, let's go on a quick break and we come back. We'll check in on the Trump phone, speaking of, dare I say it, fraud. Support for the show comes from CoreWeave. AI isn't just a new tool. It encompasses so much more. It's spurring a revolution across all

industries and reshaping itself to become a big part of our future together. Corweave is at the center, powering some of the biggest names in AI. As the essential cloud for AI, CoreWeve provides an AI platform that combines next generation infrastructure, intelligent tools, and expert support. It's powering the world's most complex AI workloads, faster and more efficiently. From medical research and diagnosis to education from complex visual effects from movies to breakthroughs in science and technology. If it's AI, Corweave is uniquely ready to power it with purpose-build tech. The big idea is the wild visions and what-ifs and why nots. Coreweave is working to build what's never been built before.

Coreweave is the essential cloud for AI, ready for anything, ready for AI. To learn more about how CoreWeave powers the world's best AI, go to coreweep.com slash ready for anything. This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Tank Sinatra, the meme king, with over 15 million followers across Tank's good news, influencers in the wild, and his personal account. Tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is, how much a single sponsored post pays, why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes, and how meme culture, think Preparation an H, starter packs, and a perfectly timed screenshot is actually reshaping how we think about money and

value. Get ready for a conversation that will change the way you scroll, make you rethink what going viral is really worth, and prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the silliest of jokes. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash your rich BFF. Scott, we're back. It's been almost a year since the Trump phone was announced, and there's still no sign the device is anywhere close to shipping, but that hasn't stopped Trump mobile website from continued to accept a $100 deposit for the phone. The fine print notes, a pre-order deposit provides only a conditional opportunity if the Trump mobile later elects to offer the device for sale. And while the phone was initially touted as being made in America, the site now

describes as being shaped by American innovation, looks like these aren't coming and that people have lost their money, which we said would happen. This is exactly. You know, I'm not sure where the phone ranks among various Trump grifts. Another Trump venture where things weren't looking so great, Trump media just posted a net loss of $406 million, and I think they made under a million dollars in revenue driven largely by unrealized losses in crypto holdings. And while they're doing all this grift, the Pentagon has released a batch of, quote, never before seen UFO files on a dedicated government website. The files include details from over 400 reports from the 40s in recent years, including several Apollo missions, President Ope Tow to the administration transparency and

truth social posts saying now the people can decide for themselves what the hell is going on. We cannot decide. They're just more lights. Hey, I can get more out of just like a book I buy at the airport about these things. So it's just a lot of, you know, hand waving all over the place. And Gryft. I mean, the Trump phone, which Scott and I both said was never going to happen, is not going to happen, people.

And that's 60 million bucks or something like that. They think that's how much they collected. It's grift. First off, this wasn't a down-to-payment on a product. It was a donation. I don't think anyone's going to care. I think the likelihood that he was ever going to have a competent phone was probably didn't escape these folks.

As it relates to aliens, I'm convinced that aliens have been monitoring us, including all of our media. And if we're really honest, about two-thirds of our media is porn. So I think this explains that the aliens aren't using anal probes for information. They're just trying to speak our language. Can you ask me a question? Do you believe in aliens? I'm just curious.

When you think about UFOs and you see these pictures, and let me tell you, everybody, I looked at some of these pictures. They look like the pictures you always see. Bright lights, things moving across the sky, unexplainable phenomena, often lights, you know, or lights moving in a pattern or something like that, which could be explained lots of different ways. Do you actually believe in aliens, sir? This isn't going to sound like I'm on edibles, but I'm not. But I believe in everything. What do I mean by that?

But if you believe, well, there's some logic here, I think. Like Loch Ness Monster? Well, no. Most astrophysicists believe it appears the infinite space theory that space never ends. So if space never ends and it's regenerating and the space time continuum curves and space never ends, that means everything exists. That means everything that's happened has happened before. Because if space never ends, that means the infinite possibilities of,

of everything exist and everything that you can imagine is out there. Oh, God, I need an edible at this point. Okay. That means we exist all the time forever, you and I? No, it means that if there's an infinite number of universes, at some point, there's a universe very similar ours with similar lifespan, similar earth and gas and organisms and similar carers and Scots. And if you don't believe, if it's not exactly like it,

just keep going through infinity and eventually you'll get to it. Oh, wow. The fact that the notion... This is like the plot of interstellar. or something like that. Well, if space is infinite, and I'd like to hear an argument for how it couldn't be, then, of course, there's a galaxy

and another alien intelligence that can send probes here. Having said that, I don't think they'd be that interested with us. So I don't. Do I believe they exist? Yes. Do I believe the ones we have seen our actual alien intelligence or life? I don't think so.

Maybe there flashes from another universe. Maybe that's what we're seeing, like in all the sci-fi, or the Marvel movies, all the different universes, suddenly the sky gets ripped open and one of the universes comes in to this one. You have to close the, it's always having to close a fucking portal

in those movies, which I never understand. But I vaguely do. I think we should ask aliens to hunt down all the people on Jeffrey Epstein's island. I think we could call it Alien versus Predators. They show that. Ha, ha, ha. I would like the aliens to arrive just about now.

That's what I would like them to do. You ready for it? I would like them to come now. It's time. It's time. Either Jesus or them. I don't care. Jesus needs to come back or they do. I don't either one.

I'm good with anybody showing up and like getting our, that's the distraction we need. And I would like. But that's what this says, Kara. Yeah. Distraction, of course. This was meant to be a distraction. Of course. Absolutely.

Anyway, well, we wish you will come aliens. All I got to say is if females invade the earth and kidnap men with large cocks, you're in no danger and I'm just riding this to say goodbye. Oh, can I have your stuff? Can I have your stuff? Can I have your stuff? You have my stuff. I show to my house in New York and I'll be like down two cashmere sweaters.

I know you've been stealing my sweaters. Yeah, that's true. I have your stuff. They're in Brooklyn right now. Anyway, you can stay at Brooklyn anytime. You'll never come to Brooklyn, which is fantastic. Never. I've been there twice.

Both times they go to the new Soho House over there. That's it. Alex and I will be in Brooklyn. If you're not, if you're not, If you're not on the island called Manhattan, there's no reason to ever visit the Northeast. Well, Legs and I will be in Manhattan on Tuesday. The Northeast is so overrated except for a seven by two mile island. That's it.

Let me just say, Legs is going to be in Brooklyn with me and he's going to eat. You know, tonight, by the way, let me just say, it's Amanda's birthday today. And happy birthday, Amanda. We're going out for oysters tonight in D.C. And I'm literally going to have to take out a small loan because Alex is coming. Like, I'm at least. Last time I took him for sushi, it was like 400. $100. Anyway, one more quick break, and we get back, wins and fails.

Okay, Scott, wins and fails. I feel like I shall go first. Speaking of conspiracy theories, this is one that I find very troubling. And look, listen, I even kind of believe it. One in four Americans think the April shooting at the White House Correspondent was staged, according to a new survey. Roughly one in three Democrat respondents said they believe the event was staged compared to one in eight Republicans. The same thing with the other. A lot of, like, Marjoriegel Green, all these people think the shooting in Butler was staged. I just feel the falling off of assuming, and this does go back to Kennedy assassination and before, there's always been a conspiracy theory-minded populace we have. But it's just a little, it's slightly depressing because, like, remember when you said, I thought Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself, just like nobody believes anything.

And I find it really depressing that our shared, like, I get conspiracy theories and I see why, you might think this, and I hate myself for even, oh, maybe it was, right, without any proof. And I find that feeling in me really gross. I have to say, the conspiracy theory minded. But you become more that way as you live in this world where AI and social media and everything else just sort of spins your brain in a way that's really gross. And speaking of clarity, I have to say, one thing is, first of all, Matt Damon on Saturday Night Live was superb and he looks like he's great in The Odyssey. He was super. That was a superb show. S&L is really bringing it. He's a really solid actor. Anyway, but I have to give, talking about clarity, Chelsea Handler at the Kevin Hartrose

was fucking super. So was Tom Brady, by the way. But let me say, Chelsea Handler handed it back to the MAGA sort of adjacent comedian bros. You love that. I thought of you when I saw that. Let's listen to her call out the comedians who went to the Saudi Comedy Festival. Now that your favorite leader is making the draft mandatory, I assume that all of you will be signing up to go fight in Iran. Or do you tough-talking pussies only go to the Middle East for comedy festivals? She had so many lines. That was a nicer what. And then she had some choice words for Tony Hinchcliff.

And she said, Tony is what happens when women don't have safe access to abortion care, which I thought was funny. And then also, like, who's warming Joe Rogan's. in their mouth now that you're here tonight. He looked sick the way she attacked him, and it was so good. She did such a good job. I have to say, Chelsea, I love you, marry me. I got to say so good. She was fantastic.

And they just, he was so uncomfortable. Like they can't take a joke, these people. They can dish it out, but they can't take it. And Chelsea put them down, put them down. And I love to see it. Anyway, your thoughts? I agree with you on that. So my wins and fails.

My win is Mayor Mamdani's Pietaterta tax. I'm not even going to get into whether the city of New York should be cutting costs or spends too much money. I don't have enough domain expertise. I'm a resident of Florida. But the percentage of federal employees as a percentage of the population has steadily gone down. I've never bought that there's just waste, fraud and abuse everywhere. And if we're going to get our fiscal house in order, do we need to cut spending and raise taxes? the answer is yes. So I'm just going to talk about the raising taxes side of it. If you're going to raise

taxes, it feels to me that there's a very legitimate argument that the people who have done the best over the last 30 or 40 years are the very wealthy and specifically owners. And it's pretty basic. Productivity has gone up 45 degrees. Wages have gone flat. The delta between those two lines is trillions of dollars in value creation and almost all of it has gone to the top. one, if not the top 0.1%. So it seems to me that just basic math is it makes sense for the wealthiest among us to pay a disproportionate amount of incremental taxes needed to operate this great experiment called the U.S. to pay for our Navy to pay for food stamps. And the problem is, okay, so what do you do in New York if you need to raise revenues? Do you increase corporate taxes? The problem with that is,

and J.D. Me. Diamond pointed this out. J.P. Morgan has gone from 30,000 to 20,000 employees in New in the last 10 years because it's a very expensive place to do business. It is. It is. No question. Meanwhile in Texas, it's gone from 10,000 employees to 30,000. So at some point, you get diminishing returns. And a lot of the people to work at corporations are middle-class people who commute in

from the different boroughs. So you've got to be very careful about raising costs on business because New York is getting to the point where a lot of businesses are contemplating, leaving or at least doing the bulk of their hiring somewhere else. Then you think, well, we could just go after all rich people. The problem is there are a lot of people in New York, making a half a million, 600, 800 grand a year as a couple. And they can't, I was that couple, and I had to leave because it's just so goddamn expensive there. And you're already paying 13 to 14% incremental taxes.

So I like the idea, and let's bring this back to me. In 2017, when I sold my company, I made the mistake of giving NYU, I think, 2% to the company. the dean called me and said, can you come up here? And when the dean calls you and says, come up here, it's either very good or very bad news. And he said, we just got a check for X. And he said, first off, thank you. And he said, if my math is correct, that means you sold your company for why. And I said, yes. And he's like, I need you to move out of faculty housing right away. That's right. You lost that house. And he said, you liked that house, didn't you? I loved it there. It was all a bunch of 110-year-old widows from some 10-year-old history professor that

died 40 years ago. No one makes eye contact. No one talks to each other. I loved it, Washington Square Village. It was amazing. No one even looks at you in the eye. Occasionally there'd be a little mimographed paper saying, join us in the third floor to celebrate Lois Frankl's life. Occasionally there was a notice about someone who died. That's it.

Oh, my God. I absolutely love it. Anyways, he said, he was really funny, too. Peter Henry, one of my role models in the best box I've ever had. He said, you're in strategy. He's like, answer me this. What do you think the objective is of faculty housing? And I'm like to provide housing for young faculty who could otherwise not live here.

And he's like, bingo, I need you to move out next week, not the week after that. Anyways, I bought a place, which Kara Swisher is very fond of. It's one of my second homes. And I spend about, I don't know, about 60 days a year there, maybe 90, I don't know. And here's the bottom line. This tax, I figured out I did the math. If it goes through unfettered or un- I didn't know one that told you about this,

by the way, but go ahead. You told me about it, so I began looking into it. It's unlikely to, it'll be watered down. But if it goes through as Mom Donnie has proposed it, it would be an incremental $100,000 a year tax on me personally. I'm not fond of that. It's a form of a wealth tax because all that really does is take a, say, a condo worth $10 million and make it worth $8.5 million because it's an extra $100,000 a year.

But here's the bottom line. And the reason why I think it's a win. One, our municipalities need to get their fiscal house in order. Two, it's clear that if there's going to be incremental taxes, it should be on the wealthiest among us. And three, a tax on second homes, which is also being proposed, by the way, in San Francisco and Montana, is a very elegant way of going after those of us who, quite frankly, have the money.

Right. It's over $10 million, the house is correct? Over five, as it stands now. In addition, it also kind of, you get a two for here, and that is if people decide to sell, it does free up housing stock. So nobody likes a tax. I get it. And the wealthy are going to come out of their skin. I get it. Ken fucking Griffin needs to shut the hell up. He looks like a... Oh, hold on. I'm not done to my wins and my fails. All right, okay. I get it. I actually think as far as taxes goes, which nobody likes, see above the meaning of the word tax. I think this is an elegant, thoughtful, less bad tax.

My little lesbian communist from San Francisco finally. Go ahead. And as long as I can roll out of my apartment and I have the money, which I do, and go to Jack's wife, Frida, and sit there and order a latte and watch the freak show of commerce, sex, capitalism, art, fashion walk by me. It is worth $100,000 a year to me. And it's still worth that to a shit ton of people because if you have a second home in Manhattan, My brothers and sisters, you are doing just fine.

Yeah. Piattaire. So the Pietater tax and the second home tax being proposed across municipalities that need to raise revenue, it is an elegant, thoughtful tax. This is what you're not going to like. My fail is Mayor Mamdani and his class warfare against the rich and docks in Ken Griffin. That was totally out of line. I would agree with you.

Totally out of line. And here's the problem with Democrats. We want to redistribute virtue, not income. Propose a tax on the wealthiest. I get it. Get on with it. Stop complaining about billionaires. Do your fucking job and raise taxes on the wealthy.

But instead, do not go to their homes and docks them. And this is what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. Ken Griffin, who had a $6.5 billion project underway in Manhattan, supposedly has given a quarter of a billion dollars to New York-based charities. You know what he's going to say? Fuck you. And he's absolutely going to take capital he was investing in Manhattan

and move it to Florida and Texas. And here is the problem with Democrats. We'd much rather signal virtue than do our fucking jobs. And that is, it is one thing to be right, but it doesn't matter if you're ineffective. And the Democrats are going to lose if they continue to try and with this undercurrent of young men are the problem, don't have problems.

Most white people are racist. and all billionaires are evil. Well, guess what? You're going to lose the young male, the wealthy, and quite frankly, the white vote, if you keep this class warfare demonization of success up. One of the most wonderful things about America and the reason why we have consistently attracted

the best and brightest around the world is we celebrate success. Now, do we need to redistribute income to the middle class? Abs of fucking lute. But notice how they never talk about Oprah or Bayon, This is identity politics at its worse. It's demonizing success. And you are going to end up with lower treasury receipts, but great, you're going to virtue signal.

All right. Let me ask you, what is the thing? Because I think the most effective messaging around this area, and I often would please are saying, are billionaires off? I'm like, not all of them. No, of course not. Like, you know, I think the most effective way is to say everyone needs to pay their fair share. That, I think, is a very effective thing.

And you're saying the same thing. And remember, I think Gore. tried to sort of demonize rich people, of course, which is ironic since he is one. But one of the things that I think is effective is everybody should pay their fair share. Like everybody shouldn't get breaks. Everyone shouldn't get to meet with the president if I don't, right? Everyone shouldn't be in a meeting where they get stuff. I think they get well they're getting good stuff of them standing there and pulling in like Scrooge McDuck all the money is a very good message. Like why do they get the first, why do they get the best bits and you don't? I think.

think that is not demonizing them. It's saying fair share. This is how much they pay. This is how much you pay. This is how much corporate tax has gone down. This is how much your taxes have gone up. I think that is fully a great way to do it. And I agree that I didn't love the thing of the Ken using Ken Griffin. I think you could have done much wider is all these people have second homes and they should pay a tax on it. And that's that. And they're very rich and they can not just they can afford it. They don't have to pay taxes. And win with math. is the way you kind of do it with people, in a smart way. That's my feeling.

What about you? From a marketing perspective, what do you think? If teachers' unions were much more powerful, and they had figured out a way to weaponize government and were getting paid $500,000 a year on average, plus benefits plus retirement, they would not be saying, enough. We don't need anymore. People will always respond to incentives in a capitalist society

to get more and more. Until we get rid of Citizens United, the wealthiest among us will weaponize government and always incrementally seed the transfer of power of our economy from laborers and consumers to investors. The entire shooting match around income inequality is the following. The point of America is to make the jump to light speed by evolving from an earner to an owner,

because once you're an owner, your wealth compounds tax deferred. And owners are so powerful and have such powerful lobbies because of Citizen United, they keep coming up with new tax rates. I can buy a jet today and write the whole fucking thing off in year one being cash flow positive. If I own a home and I put it in an LLC, I'm an owner, I can sell it, don't have to have a capital gain. I can roll into another investment property, put it in a trust, $30 million exemption and start building a dynasty. Until we have an elected populist, elected representatives who stop transferring capital influence, well-being health per your series from labor and from consumer. to shareholders, none of this is going to change. And the key to all of this, none of this happens

unless you do away with Citizens United. And for Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who keep complaining about the wealthy, well, then do your fucking job. When you controlled all three houses of government, taxes went down on the rich during the Biden administration. So everyone can, it's like the guy complaining that the game was rigged is wearing a referees uniform. Yeah, I agree. I agree. You need structural reform. But demonizing billionaires, everybody does the same thing. Everyone responds to incentives and feathers their bed the most they can.

I also think they do it to themselves. I do think, on the other hand, the look of the Bezos's at that MetGala wasn't good. Totally different issue, but I agree with you. They do it to themselves. They do it to themselves. So let them do it to themselves.

Rent Venice. Everyone knows how that feels. I agree. I have to say, I agree with you. You're right. I think it was a rare misstep by Zamandani, who's a little more deft as the way he handled Trump. Very savvy politician.

I thought that was a little clottish of him. I think you're right. I think you're right. Anyway, those are good ones, although Ken Griffin's still been a whiny bitch about it. Anyway, he's always a whiny bitch. Smart guy. I understand. Really smart guy. All of them need to stop talking, every one of them.

Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to NYMag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 Pivot. And we have a specific question for you listeners today. Who do you want to see co-host with me in August when Scott goes away on a big. We have, we already have a really good list, actually, and they're really good, including Chelsea Handler, is coming. So I'm very pleased about that.

We want to hear your ideas, and maybe we can get them for you. So we'll pick at least one from the people, the suggestions of the people. And don't be kooky. Don't be like, you know, the pope. I can't get the pope, although I'm working on getting an interview with them. But, I mean, I could try to get the pope, but it's not going to work. So email us, call us, or tell us on the socials. We want to hear your suggestions.

I would prefer an alien if that's possible, if anyone's listening from up there tapping into this show. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on On Was Kara Swisher, I'm talking with author and journalist Patrick Radden Keefe. He's one of my favorite journalist. He writes amazing books. Obviously he wrote about the opiate crisis. He's written about the crisis in Northern Ireland. He's just amazing journalist. His new book is called London Falling. It's about a mysterious circumstances around the death of a 19-year-old who was pretending to be the son of a Russian oligarch. I asked Radin Keefe why he's drawn to these true crime stories. Let's listen to a clip. I don't really even think of myself as a crime reporter, but it is a situation where when I go out and I kind of pursue what's interesting to me in the world,

it's often stories about people transgressing in one way or another. It's often stories about people kind of using their own charisma to change the world a little bit, to find some little wormhole, some loophole they can get through, or actually to kind of reorganize the world in a way that they would want. And it's funny because we talk about those stories as if they're outliers, but I feel as though that is the era we live in.

It's a great interview. He's so smart. Also, he's very handsome. He was in, he was in loaded too. Yeah. That will be, that hands down will be on Netflix within 24 months. Oh, I think he's already sold it.

I'm sure. Say nothing. Like I hear that story and I want to know more. That's correct. It's going to be great. I actually was asking him who's going to play the kid in the movie. I think he's already sold it, I believe so. By the way, it's a riveting read.

It's really, you can't put it. I'm not sure it has that as much meaning as he's putting in it, but it's fantastic read. And it is, it does, it's about modern-day London, too, which is interesting. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was produced by Lara Amman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Weissman.

Ernie and Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Miss Averio, and Dan, on. Ashikuroz, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things, tech and business.