Pivot - Mr. Zuckerberg goes to Washington ... again

Episode Date: April 12, 2019

Kara and Scott talk about Congressional hearings on tech platforms responsibility for spreading white nationalism and other hate speech. New Zealand, Australia and the EU are so far ahead of the US in regulations ... when will we catch up? They also discuss the Pinterest IPO and AirBnB reversing their decision to pull out of the West Bank. MacKenzie Bezos becoming the 3rd richest woman in the world is a win. And Scott has some predictions for 2020.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and reporting tools that get your marketing running seamlessly, all backed by their expert live customer support. It's time to get going and growing with Constant Contact today. Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And this is Scott Galloway. Scott, we just had a long interview. We did.

About your book, The Algebra of Happiness. I know. I'm glad you got the title. I feel spent. I feel emotionally vulnerable. You feel emotionally vulnerable? Yeah. So you're not going to whip up another rant like last week about Lyft?

No. I'm on my meds, which is something I probably shouldn't joke about, right? Is that a hate crime now? Anyway. In any case. Yeah, I'm feeling kind of mellow. I'm going to be visiting the Lyft guys next week

and I'm curious if they listen to you. Oh my gosh. Throw a dime at their head. Say, can you drive me somewhere and throw a dime at their head? Say that's what you do to your 1.4 million drivers.

No, I'm not going to do that. Oh shit, don't get me started. Seriously, don't get me started. I won't get you started on that. Would you hate the Uber people more? Because I'm going to see them do. I'm seeing everyone next week. I think ride-hailing is—I got a ton of shit saying this on Twitter.

I think ride-hailing is the tobacco of the gig economy. I think we've figured out a way to separate, you know, the everyday workers from the white people who split all the money with their investors. I shall see what they say. Yeah. They're nicer than the Uber people. They were in the old days. They're nicer. I'm just saying. I mean, they're all nice. No, They're nicer than the Uber people. They were in the old days. They're nicer. I'm just saying.

I mean, they're all nice. No, they're not. Really? N to the O, my friend. Yeah. They look nice. Do you think that matters? I don't think it really matters

if they're nice or not. I would agree. It matters what they're doing for society. Anyway, there's so many big stories. There's so many big stories this week already. Obviously, these hearings

on white nationalism. Yeah, crazy. Where they're just discovering that it's available online. It's incredible. I was talking to someone pretty high up at one of the tech companies who isn't one of those social partners. And they're like, you know what's amazing? Around the world, like in New Zealand and Australia and Europe, they're already like making moves about how to fix this.

And like here we're just deciding whether it's a problem. But that's the myth, Kara. It's ridiculous. I would agree. I didn't think of that. of that I'm like you're right they're like debating the problem well in Germany where they're more liable before the Germany has figured out a way to have more moderators and the content slowly but surely has become less offensive I'm telling you start finding them a billion dollars a day they'll figure it out no they'll figure it out like New Zealand is just shuts it down New Zealand's gonna to just send us on it, like that kind of stuff. And so is Europe. The perfect metaphor for me is they can literally target households with teens who just got their driver's licenses,

but they can't figure out a way for me to stop getting birthday alerts from a friend of mine who died of ovarian cancer four years ago. It's like, okay, where are their priorities? All right. I think it's interesting with this because one of the issues was when they had the hearings yesterday, it was kind of ugly. Candace Owens was there fighting with Ted Lieu. The whole thing, you know, the whole thing, it just brings out all so much hate. And they didn't get to the point, which is how do you protect people, make people safe online and prevent attacks like this and from ginning everybody up. What was really interesting is that the comments on YouTube had to be shut down.

Didn't they anticipate that? So, you know, the big winners, the big winner. It was such an incredibly depressed. The big winners. It was such an incredibly depressing. The big winners were the haters. Yeah. The haters showed up, started making

anti-Semitic comments, and that was the story. All kinds of it. It's like. And you had people on the far left and the far right trying to embarrass each other,

not make any progress around the issue. I think these hearings, I miss the wonks of like Ross Dankowski and Dingell who actually dug in. Barney Frank actually dug in to the content of the issue.

I used to love listening to him. Barney Frank. Barney Frank, I have some questions for you. He's fantastic. He's great. I used to watch him on C-SPAN. No, he's a gangster. I think he lives – someone told me he lives like up near Boston.

He's on the Cape or something like that. Anyway. But yesterday it was just partisan bickering and then the platform got shut down because of all the hate commentary. It's literally a large amount of what's going on. But didn't they anticipate, like, I would know to turn that one off. Like, that one is not one. Just shut the comments off. Shut the comments.

Why can't they just do that? Common sense. Well, here's the thing, and this is what's so ironic, is they claim they don't want to have editorial control and they wrap themselves in First Amendment. First Amendment is for the public square, not for a private company. And also, they are the master, you know, they are the Uber editors, if you will, because their algorithms decide which content we see more of. So they're editing to the, you know, they're editing on steroids. They've been editing for a while. So why couldn't they just edit more responsibly? So the whole thing, but yeah, yesterday was, I mean, I think the appropriate term for yesterday was it was just a total shit show.

Yeah, it really was. And the Republicans bringing Tandis on who's so controversial with so many people. It was just like they're making fun of it. They don't want to actually get something done. It said Republicans turn white nationalism hearing into a GOP pity party. You know, the whole – you're right. The whole side – but the whole idea of like having these moments of not revelation. What's the opposite of revelation or solution building?

Like what do we do about this? And other countries are onto it, like onto the idea. Like Britain with their new proposals this year – this week that they dropped, which is essentially you're going to pay for this. Yeah, we've had it. You've made a mess. We've had it and we're going to have. And Theresa May backed it. It seems so civil.

Like this is what we're going to do. And reasonable. Reasonable. And we're going to think about it and we're going to have. And Theresa May backed it. It seems so civil. Like this is what we're going to do. And reasonable. And we're going to think about it and we're going to do it right. I think it's going to go further than that. I think we're going to have, and I've been saying this for a while and I've been wrong, I think we're going to have a Latin American or small European nation, Northern European ban one of these guys. They're going to say, enough already. You're out.

We're done. We'll be fine. Our kids will be angry for a weekend and then we'll be fine. Our kids will be angry for a weekend, and then we'll be fine. But what's interesting is it's coming from Australia, New Zealand, and Europe, which is really, and a little bit California. California is not going that far, but it's a really interesting, I mean, it sort of jumped the Pacific, just the Atlantic, the Pacific, and they're doing something about it. But it's how, that we're just discussing the issue is really amazing. Just discussing the issue is really amazing just discussing the issue are you let me ask you this i'm exhausted by the whole thing do you think that's their strategy

that they just exhaust us and we just forget about it that's just kind of god enough already you win no they're not gonna win no i'm not exhausted yeah you think it's coming yeah i could do this all day yeah you watch captain america you don't watch avengers do you you're so onto captain america i'm not captain america captain marvel's my favorite but the new avengers movie's coming Yeah. You watch Captain America? You don't watch Avengers, do you? You're so on to Captain America. I'm not Captain America. Captain Marvel's my favorite. Right. But the new Avengers movie's coming out in a few weeks.

And it's got that woman from the movie The Room, which is a fantastic movie. That's Captain Marvel. Oh, my God. I'm not speaking with you at all. You know what I did, though? You'll like this. I'm not talking with you at all. My youngest was at a sleepover.

My wife was away. So I said to my 11-year-old, I said, it's just you and me. Let's do something totally inappropriate. We're going to watch a movie you shouldn't watch. I mean, you know what we watched? Deadpool. My wife was away. So I said to my 11-year-old, I said, it's just you and me. Let's do something totally inappropriate. We're going to watch a movie you shouldn't watch. I mean, you know what we watched? Deadpool.

I would say Ted. Oh, Deadpool. Oh my God. What the ass? That is a fantastic movie. I took my kids to that. That's an outstanding movie. I took a bunch

of eighth graders to it. We need Deadpool at one of these hearings. I asked the parents. I did ask the parents. Initially, I thought, I'm not going to ask the parents.

Then I did because Deadpool's kind of dirty. Deadpool 2. I took a one of these hearings. I asked the parents. I did ask the parents. Initially, I thought, I'm not going to ask the parents. Then I did because Deadpool is kind of dirty. Deadpool 2. I took a packet of A-graders. And my son is so like prude and so good. He would actually ask me to fast forward certain scenes. They were just too much for him. Really?

Deadpool? It's like joke a minute. That's not – like I'll tell you what's an awkward situation is bringing your son. He was a bit – my other son was a bit older, but I took him to Sausage Party. That was an error. Sausage Party? There's took him to Sausage Party. That was an error. Sausage Party? There's a movie called Sausage Party? Oh, yeah. It's with Seth Rogen. There's a bunch of people. And at first you're like, oh, that's

interesting. But then at the end, there's a real... What are you, Hickenlooper? No. Can I just tell you there's a terrible part at the end. And my son turned to me and he goes, bad parenting. Bad parenting. And he goes, this is awkward. Bad parenting. And I go, I agree. I don't know what to do. Do we leave? You're scarred. We had a discussion. And he goes, this is awkward. Bad parenting. And I go, I agree. I don't know what to do.

Do we leave? We had a discussion. And he and I were both like, it was the worst. And we just sat there like. Would you like some red vines? This is a moment. And he literally said, bad parenting. Bad parenting.

And I was like, I agree completely. I concur. And that's it. Anyway, back to this. Where is it going to go with this? When are our lawmakers going to actually do something about it? Well, I don't know if you saw the riff today, but now they're for the conservative guy. Ted Cruz said he's threatened.

I got excited. It's Ted Cruz. Senator Cruz threatens antitrust action. Oh, wow. He's got the right script because of conservative bias. Yeah. And so now they're bringing up this notion of conservative bias again, which is, again, going to be another illusionist trick where they're going to say, hey, look over here, everybody. Oh, Ted Cruz.

Well, but the problem is I think Facebook and social media will embrace it because they will eventually be able to dispel it. Antitrust. No, they won't. No, no, no. Dispel the notion that these platforms have a conservative, anti-conservative bias. They don't. They don't. I know, but that's my point.

They have nothing. They wish they had a bias. I wish they believed in something. That's my feeling. No, they don't look left. They don't look right. They look down. Down.

They just – I want to ignore it. You know, here in Nuevo Sino, oh, wait, kids are depressed. Oh, wait, this mass shooting was probably motivated by your platform or at least was your trafficking in it. Yeah. We don't want to know. We're First Amendment. We don't care. I had an interesting interview with Roger McNamee this weekend at the Annapolis Book Fair,

which was fascinating. I put him on my Twitter feed, which was fun and interesting. And then I interviewed Scott McNeely this week. Of Sun? Of Sun. Way back on. Privacy, get over it. You have no privacy, get over it.

Right. He's like, it's utility for privacy. We've already made the tradeoff. And he said that 25 years ago. So I wrote a column this week in the Times about that, and I talked to him. And what's Roger? He still thinks we have no privacy. And you should still get over it.

Yeah, just get used to it. That's true, Scott McNeely. I don't get used to it. Too bad. I actually don't think privacy is the biggest issue. I think the biggest issue is that these platforms have shown no regard for the sovereignty of our nation or our kids. I think it's interlinked. I think you've got privacy linked with hate speech, linked with addiction.

I think they're all around the same. It's all part of the same stew. Same stew. But so what do you think? You need to see the ecosystem, Scott. Yeah, the force for the trees. You must see ecosystems. Okay.

The structural underpinnings are all together and they're all linked. It's the force for the trees must be ecosystems the structural underpinnings are all together and they're all linked it's the force yeah kind of like Vision's brain when they were trying

to take out the soul stone so you're on something today there were 31 billion you're highly caffeinated no I'm not highly caffeinated it's just

I had to see I see this enormous empty Starbucks cup because I'm going to see Endgame you need to see I don't know either of those things what are they these cultural references I don't know what they are so Infinity Stones because I'm going to see Endgame. You need to see – you don't really – I don't know either of those things.

What are they? These cultural references. I don't know what they are. It's only going to be the biggest movie of the year. So what do you think is going to happen here? I don't know what's going to happen. I think – I don't know. Hopefully a privacy bill will pass.

I hope they will start – I think this stuff in Europe is going to – Europe and Australia and New Zealand will try to press them. And maybe some other country is going to take this lead here. Maybe some other – Oh, that's actually going to happen. That's what's going to happen. Anyway, next story. I think they still don't get it. I still don't think they get it.

Pinterest IPO. Yeah, this one's interesting. So about, I think, 680 or 700 million revenue grew 60%, which is really impressive. And Pinterest has sort of been the little engine that could. They have carved out a nice niche for themselves. Do you have boards that you pin to? I don't, but I like Pinterest. Yeah, it's nice. I always thought it was if you're decorating a house or getting married, it's sort of perfect. But there's a lot of other stuff. And you can see how the ad model works.

But the fact that we're able to grow 60% and given just how ridiculous some of these companies are, the fact that they only lost $70 million, if they can grow 60% to the next two years, you're looking at a company that'll lose $700 million. They don't lose that much money, right? It's a real business. They took the price down.

They've adjusted the IPO down. They don't want to be a broken IPO. Down from its valuation, its private valuation, by several billion dollars. It's last private round. Yeah. But it's – the tough part about Pinterest, so nice market. They've carved out something interesting.

The economics actually look decent here. The hard part I struggle with with Pinterest is what happens if and when it becomes a big enough business that Instagram or Amazon says – I always thought they'd get bought. I always thought they'd get bought. Who do you think buys them? Oh, Amazon or Google. Yeah, I think that might be right. Either one.

Or Alibaba. Any of them. There's all three of them. It's really interesting. I know Ben very well. Ben Silverman. He's a very quiet, brainy guy. Design guy, right?

Yes. And he doesn't – he worked at Google many years ago. He doesn't seek out the public – it would be interesting of him being a public company CEO. He almost doesn't want to be. He feels like he's not. I don't think that works any longer. I think you have to be a fantastic storyteller to get access to Cheap Capital. Well, he isn't.

So it will be interesting. I'm fascinated by – I was just emailing with him because I wanted to see him when I was in San Francisco next week. And he's busy on his thing. But I'm like, I can't believe you on a road show. It was – you know, he's – several times I've had dinner with him and we never talk about tech. It's always something – But it's not a Tim Cook kind of quiet. It's a real quiet.

It's a real deep quiet. He has big questions and it's always like, let's talk about marriage. And you're like, okay. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, instead of like – What do you want to know? I've done it twice. What do you want to know?

He doesn't gossip. He doesn't – I haven't been married twice. He doesn't gossip. He doesn't engage in small talk. He's a really interesting person and he's super careful. Now, he's not perfect. I've heard lots of different things in time like about dysfunction, like any company. Well, that's weird because I think every tech –

But he's very brainy. That's really – that's shocking because I think that every major tech CEO is perfect. These guys are wonderful human beings. No, but it's interesting because he's not the Mark Zuckerberg awkward thing. He's very facile in talking and stuff like that. It's just – he's a really – it will be really interesting. And I agree. I think it's a really promising – I always thought I was going to buy it.

That was always my take on it. And do you know any of the – I always like to see the layer down. Do you know any of the kind of the other managers? I like them. They've had a little bit of a spin. It's been a revolving door there. There's been a lot of a revolving door. Tim Loft.

Yeah, lots of people. Lots of the other guy. There's, I think the two founders are still there. Yeah. Ben and I can't totally blank on the other guy.

But it's an interesting, it's just an interesting, I find it to, they've moved through lots of people actually. So that's always a, hmm, what's going on there.

But Facebook did too. But what happens if Amazon launches a board and says 10 off anything you pin or if instagram but that's that's the interesting thing and that is is it because it's not big enough they don't care yeah i mean it's this isn't a huge business is what and then i was saying what are the adjacent businesses are they going to sell stuff that's what they really have to show is what are the adjacent what are the how businesses. Because 700 million, unfortunately. Because Houzz does that too, another interesting company. That's a great company.

I love the woman who runs that company. She's amazing. I've had her on stage at Code before. It's a question of how big it can get. I think you're right. That's exactly right. But I think they've decided we want to pop. We want sustainability.

We want the stock to go up. It's a nice market. I've always been very critical of Pinterest. I thought Pinterest was going to get squashed and made no sense. I was wrong. That's because he's creative and they're not creative over there at Amazon. Yeah, but there's clearly someone with a business mind. If they're figuring out a way to grow 60% a year.

No, no, no. They're not creative at Google and Amazon enough to create that. He's too creative. Then again, Snapchat got crushed, right? Yeah. Because he's more creative than Zuckerberg ever could be and twice on Sunday. And it doesn't matter because they can replicate. But this thing, I don't think – I think Pinterest will not make sense in terms of its valuation out of the gates.

But it will make – it will be less ridiculous than, for example, Lyft. This company could be a profitable – any company near profitability growing 60% a year is worth looking at. Although it's slower than it was before. That's the only thing. There's a limit, right? 60% is still pretty gangster growth. Yeah, it was like 400 before that. Anyway, it's interesting. So last one, Airbnb backtracking his decision to pull out the West Bank. Oh, boy. How do you—say you're the CEO. Because they're like that. They did it with immigration. He went out on a limb on immigration.

With the Super Bowl ad, he's gone out on a limb on a lot of things. But what do you do if you're advising him on that issue? What do you do? I kind of like him for it. He's like the others. He's got it hard. You know what I mean? Everything's not perfect like anywhere else in Airbnb.

But Brian Chesky's got it. I think it was hard in the right place. So wait. Explain to the listeners. What's the whole issue about Airbnb? Pulling listings on the West Bank because of activity. It created – oh, God, it went bad. So much. They got killed on that, pulling listings on the West Bank because of activity. It created, oh, God, it went bad. So much.

They got killed on that, pulling listings. And now they're putting back. But who knows what will happen now that Netanyahu seems to have won and is going to form a coalition. And he's going to annex it. It's going to be just – they've sucked themselves in like a millennial age crisis. It just feels to me like this is something they should have just pivoted and figured out a way to avoid the whole thing like why are we even talking about the west bank and airbnb you know they have apartments everywhere people want to go to the west bank so you know

they they were sued by a bunch of travelers who wanted to go you know it was that it was and it was anti-religious or it was interesting it's you know there's always you're going to do one thing but i do like that he is willing to take he's very eager to take political stands and that's going to always catch him. There's no – especially in some of these. And they did it in Charlottesville. That worked out OK. Like he was one of the first to like cut listings there for white nationalists and that was a long time ago. So I kind of – I like the instinct.

I like – he wants to run the company when he wants to run it. Yeah, I think Airbnb. They're going public too. I think Airbnb is going to be the most valuable company. I really like that company. That's private, right? I think it's the most valuable private company right now.

We just don't know it yet. Yeah, I agree. I like him. But kind of our metrics around IPOs, going back to Pinterest, you want explosive growth, you want network effects, and ideally you want some sort of recurring revenue stream. And Pinterest has two of those things. 60% is explosive growth. You want network effects. And ideally, you want some sort of recurring revenue stream.

And Pinterest has two of those things. 60% is explosive growth. There are network effects. The more people that pin pictures of their favorite dog leash, it makes the platform more robust. It's useful. It doesn't have recurring revenue. It doesn't have the scale and targeting of a Facebook or Google. But you're right.

You could see – I don't know if Alibaba could do it for xenophobic reasons. I don't know if the other guys can do it because of antitrust or concerns about raising antitrust. What can they buy? That's right. That's the thing. So they sort of have to go out on their own and build a nice small business. And then things get looser. And it's going to get pretty expensive pretty fast.

But it's, look, good for them. Hope they get, they'll get out. Hope they get a big pop. I want, I am rooting for Pinterest. Yep. I agree. I like him. I like Ch get out. I hope they get a big pop. I like – I want – I am rooting for Pinterest. Yeah, I agree. I like him. I like Chesky. I like – those are two people I really do enjoy talking to, and it's actually – it's interesting to talk to them.

I, like, enjoy it. I actually enjoy talking to them, and they're very thoughtful. Both of them are incredibly thoughtful. And, again, not perfect, but they're certainly very thoughtful. So are the Lyft guys. I'm sorry they are. So are the Uber guys. But those two are particularly – and I like their designs.

I think the reason the sites are so interesting is because they're interesting. Which sites do you think are interesting? Pinterest and Airbnb. Yeah, they both have a really clean job. The others are just great healing services. I don't think they're interesting. I almost got kicked out of faculty housing for listing my place on Airbnb. Oh, really?

Yeah, that's against faculty. You're not allowed to list your place. I got a note saying we need you to kicked out of faculty housing for listing my place on Airbnb. Oh, really? Yeah, that's against faculty. You're not allowed to list your place. I got a note saying, we need you to move out of faculty housing. You violated our terms and services. And that's me turning you in. I did that. I'm really sorry. That's nice. You need to stop breaking the rules. I'm literally, this is how bad faculty housing is, I'm hands down the coolest person

in the entire building. It is just the, it is literally where lame goes to die. It is like, okay it is literally where lame goes to die. It is like, okay, the widow of a 90-year-old humanities professor who stacks his newspapers a mile high

and has a fire hazard and then some Albanian grad student, which is, I'm sure, racist thing to say. It is literally, oh, are you kidding?

You walk into any building in New York and there's hot, interesting people everywhere except in my building. People look at me, they're like, oh, my God, he's so good looking. And look at his shoes. Nobody is saying that.

Nobody says that anywhere but in my building. Oh, my God. I am gangster cool. I'm fucking the Kardashians and Adidas in my building. You know how that just sounded? Nothing. I am so cool. Who's really cool?

I'm Shawn Mendes in my building. Oh, my God. You know what? All right. We're going to take a quick break with Shawn Mendes right now. He's so interesting. And we'll be back to our show soon. He lives in 12. You know, we're going to take a quick break with John Mendez. He's so interesting. And we'll be back to our show soon. He lives in 12P, right?

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I was just invited to a dinner party with the president there. Have you ever been invited to a dinner party with the president? You're literally shaming me right now. I said no. Wins and losses. We're going to move on. Win. Mackenzie Bezos is now the third richest woman in the world. Wow.

What do you think of that? And he kept all the voting shares, right? Yes. Yes, he did. And so the question I immediately have is why didn't she get half? Why didn't she get a third? I don't know. They didn't have a prenup.

The kids are getting everything. That's what I'm guessing. Is that right? Yes. I don't think there was any acrimony. It doesn't look like there was any acrimony there. Not publicly. They're way too smart.

If there was, they wouldn't let it spill out. You know, I knew them pretty well in the early days. And they were so lovely to each other. I can't believe it would degenerate into something ugly. That's nice. I hope not. I mean, it would be a surprise. Something big would have to happen.

And she's a class act. Like you'd have to start sending dick pics out to strangers? You know what? Things happen. I don't excuse that. I think it was not good. Something to come in between their great relationship? Let me just tell you.

What do you mean we don't know what happened? We have digital proof of what happened. Here's the deal. She's a class act and deserves all the billions. I agree with that. And I'm thrilled that she's rich. I like that. It's Lorraine Jobs.

It's her. It's the lady from L'Oreal who's like fabulously well-slaid, that woman. Ruth Bettany Court. Whatever. I saw that list. I was like, oh. So is McKenzie going to go start buying every media company in the world? Is she going to buy?

No, no. I think that's Lorraine's job. That's Lorraine's job, I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I wish them the best. Glad she's a billionaire. And now, do you realize if you and I make $50 million a year, it would only take us

1,900 years to match Bezos' wealth. Well, okay. So he just lost a, he's now only worth, what, $110 billion on $150? Whatever. After the first billion, who cares? Yeah, there you go.

But I'm glad it's over. I'm glad they're happy. Yeah, I think that was a win. I think they handled it well. It didn't like, these things can degenerate and I think that, you know,

you see the wins. Wait, I'm confused. It's a win? She got a bunch of money in a divorce settlement? No, I think it just, it was just like, it could have been like,

I just remember so many divorces, like so many love. Oh, the way they're handling it. Yes, that's could have been like, I just remember so many divorces, like so many. Oh, the way they're handling it. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. That's the win, not the win. That's nice. I'm glad a woman has now $36 billion or whatever. I'm good.

Well, actually, especially there's more wealth controlled by women. But anyways, because they live longer. But anyways, my win is Apple. And I'm going to try

and go professorial here. So the algorithm for irrational shareholder returns in World War II, the introduction of Google, was to take an average product and create brand codes and create all these intangible associations around American, youthful, and print money. And that requires brand management, thoughtful brand management. And in this series of these unbelievable companies that were able to provide 10x better products, cheap capital, created unbelievable brands, Google, Amazon,

et cetera. But Apple is still the best brand in the world. And the reason they're the best brand in the world is they make very thoughtful brand management decisions. And what they did recently that I thought was just genius was they did something that we try to introduce in brand strategy called laddering, where they compare them. They not only look for their best feature to talk about, they look for the feature or their attribute that immediately depositions the competition.

And the thing that they have makes someone else look bad. Like if you were to say, hi, I'm Kara Swisher and I have great hair, you would be depositioning me. That might not be your best feature, but immediately says, okay, we're done, game over, right? We're done. Hi, I'm the half that has great hair.

So laddering is pretty important, right? And they clearly laddered all the other tech companies and they said, what do we have that they can't follow? We pull 70 data points a day from your phone. Android pulls a thousand. We have encryption. We refuse to give the phone of the terrorists to the FBI, which they should have in my view. But anyways, so have you seen their new ads? They're all about privacy. Are they? It's your phone. It's your life. And it's genius.

Although I have to say I've heard some pushback on that by lots of tech executives and not just the ones at Facebook and Google in that they pull all that money from Google. They get like billions of dollars. It might be bullshit, but it's great branding. I'm just saying they're getting pushback. I would agree. I think that's why I use them in their most private phone. But that if they double down too much on it, people are going to be like, hey, they're taking money here. They're taking money there.

Oh, they're setting themselves up for hypocrisy. But hypocrisy doesn't seem to get in the way of anyone's shareholder value these days. No, but I do think it's hard. It does think those things. I interviewed the CTO of Ford Motor Company recently, and he was talking about that. He said the difficulty of dealing with internet, many Silicon Valley companies, and I think he singled Apple out as not that way, was their obsession

with taking everyone's information. When they were doing the car stuff, they're like, we think of not using people's information beyond this step. And so it's really, it was a constant struggle between the Silicon Valley tech companies who want to use all the information and the car companies who was like, hey, this is trusted information.

So anyway, it was interesting. I think Ford's done a pretty shitty job with their brand the last few years. I agree, but I'm just saying this was an interesting... I think a lot of companies that are coming against them that have more regard for people's privacy are having some troubles with Silicon Valley. But anyways, my win.

Apple, I still think, is the best brand in the world. And I think the brand managers there are really, really strong. And they, again, laddered the competition and said, this may not even be the best attribute, but it's the attribute that is going to deposition everybody else. Compared to others. What is your fail? So my fail is, it's my fail from last week, but I was too wimpy and too scared to say it. My fail is Nevada lawmaker Lucy Flores. Yeah.

I think her complaint or accusation around Vice President Biden, I don't think she's forwarding the dialogue. Everyone says we're having an overdue conversation here, and I don't think that is a conversation. I think it's an attack. Do you remember when Angela Merkel, when George Bush— Angela. Angela Merkel, gangster, probably the best leader of the last 50 years. But anyways, do you remember when George Bush came up behind her and started rubbing her shoulders at a meeting? And she went, oh, my God, and threw up her arms?

No. I thought that was an entire—you don't remember that? No, I don't. That was an entirely, in my opinion, authentic and appropriate reaction. And I think a lot of people, including our president, learned from that. Yeah. In that sort of setting— This is the other George Bush?

Yeah. Which one? W. W, okay. It wasn't the dad who had some issues with that. No, no, no, no. That was when he was older. Rest in peace.

David Coppefield, whatever. It wasn't that. This was at a G—I think a G8 meeting. Yeah. It came with red little shadows. Anyways, I thought that was—I thought that advanced—I thought there was a lot of public discourse in that advance to date. When Assemblywoman or Lawmaker Flores announces this, that she was upset by this a few days before the Vice President is supposed to announce or not announce, actively endorsing Sanders, her candidate, it doesn't feel like she's advancing the dialogue.

It feels like she's using the cloud cover of this dialogue to attack somebody. And I think it's just total bullshit. You know, Nancy Pelosi, I think, handled it well. I'm doing a podcast with her this week, Nancy Pelosi. I heard. Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi. Really? I only heard that about seven times.

Okay, here's the deal. Not to our listeners. They don't know you heard it. Yeah, yeah. But I think what's interesting is that she said, look, here's the deal. Do it like you have a cold or just do a strong – like she just handled it and then moved on. I thought that was – I thought she handled it well. There is – there's two parts of it.

One is men should hear this because I have to tell you that has happened to me dozens of times. And believe me, people shouldn't be touching Kara Swisher unnecessarily. Let me just ask you this though. Okay. Affectionate work. So you've had inappropriate examples of affectionate work and I – let me – Not inappropriate. Just I didn't want someone around my shoulders. I this, though. Okay. Affectionate work. So you've had inappropriate examples of affectionate work. Not inappropriate. Just I didn't want someone to rub my shoulders.

I just don't. Okay. But let me ask you this. It's not sexual either. I don't feel like. Have you ever had expressions of affection at work that you were receptive to? Yes. Okay.

So what I would say is help us figure that gray area. And if you turn around and say, you know, dude, I just – I'm not comfortable with my space. I don't like people. Shoulder massaging is never good. That's kind of a no-brainer. That's sort of like the user's manual. That's like common sense 101. But what I think is appropriate is to have a dialogue.

And I don't think it's appropriate to wait and go after people when they're kind of what I'll call vulnerable. I think what happens is a lot of these things have turned around and said, look, hands off, buddy. I think what happens is a lot of these things have built up over years with women. Agreed. And it's like, finally, yes, that. What's interesting is all the polling is showing that Biden is not suffering from it. There was a fascinating story in The New York Times about how the Twitter Democrats and real Democrats, how they feel like they're not bothered by Biden. They think things are too partisan.

It was really interesting, the differences. I disagree, and this goes into our predictions. Okay. All right. Let's go to predictions. We've got to finish up here. So my first prediction is that ageism and sexism is about to take serious hold in the Democratic primary field. And we're about to see the poll numbers for Biden and Sanders plummet.

Oh, all right. That's really off because, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I think the only reason they're up there is for name recognition. It was them and the Seven Dwarves. And we're getting to know other people and we're finding that, you know what, Mayor Pete, we just like him more than Uncle Joe. Have you moved on from Beto yet? You know what?

I have another lover. I am flirting with another candidate. And I got Senator Bennett in the wings, who I just think is so wonderful. So I got three. I had a lovely meeting. I got three loves. But here's the thing. The old guys were done.

Do you like any of the women candidates of which there are 53? Okay, again, I'm afraid to say this, but I'm going to say it. If a woman runs and loses, you're not going to have a female president for 20 years. That's the reason why. Come on, Scott. Okay. This is what we need. The gangster ticket is Beto or Mayor Pete and Kamala as VP.

Why does she have to be VP? She's like so much more qualified. Give me a break. I think she's fantastic. I don't think she's as good on her feet as Beto. As a politician. Yeah. And guess what?

That matters. It's a very political office. But guess who could really actually run things better? I think she'd be great. She's very strong. She's a prosecutor, attorney general.

Outstanding. Yeah, she's outstanding. She would be great. I would love to see her... I like the guy who speaks 83 languages and like... Have you listened to him? I have.

My kids love him. Oh my gosh. I know. See, now you're... Look at you. You just totally moved on from Beto. Well, hold on.

I told you Beto was... Hold on. I'm a slut when it comes to politics beta was like bat your eyes at me i'm in love you were looking for pete beta was pete light or pete is beta heavy i don't know whatever but did you hear him on was on pbs talking about being gay and he said i didn't choose to be gay i would have had this cut out of me this was not my choice and he was very open and emotional about it and then he talked about the pences and he's like

do they really hate me? do they really want to convert me? yes it was very powerful and the guy is oh and by the way he drove Humvees around

in Afghanistan fuckers what the fuck did you do? he's very accessible and he's kind of it's interesting you know how people like Alan and stuff like that did you do? He's very accessible. And he's kind of, it's interesting. You know how people like Alan and stuff like that? It's the same.

He's very, like people hear him in a way that's really, my mother likes Pete. Oh, he's fantastic. My mother likes Pete. Anyways, my prediction. I don't know how that happened. She's like, I like Mayor Pete. I'm like, what? She still likes Biden.

Ageism and sexism over the next 30 days. The front runners in 30 days are young white males from the Democratic Party. Alright, okay, if you say so. I don't know. I think Kamala's going to come on strong. You think? I don't know. I don't know. She needs an epipen of charisma. What about Biden-Kamala? That one you can see a little. I think Biden's done. I don't think. Here's the thing.

Every time we boot a president out of office after only four years, it's to really pivot much differently. And we're not going to replace one old guy with another old guy. We're just not going to do it. I think the way to appeal to people is to say, are you sick of this stuff? Are you tired?

100%. Yeah, I agree. But I think that's our number one criteria. It's not who's most qualified. It's who has the best chance of beating him. Yeah. And I think you're probably right. I think Senator Harris is probably the most qualified candidate.

Do you know George Washington was stupid not to brand himself at Mount Vernon? What are you talking about? Trump said that. What are we talking about? You just threw me off. I thought it was a cultural reference that I didn't get. He said George Washington was not smart not to brand himself when he was at Mount Vernon. Why didn't he put his name on it?

Instead of calling it Mount Vernon. Instead, we have a city named after him. That's what the tour guide who was horrified was like. Well yeah instead we have a city named after him anyways that's what the tour guide who was like horrified was like well he does have a city named after him and the state

and he's like oh yeah that's good yeah that's cool that's cool he was just like because you know they were trying to get Trump interested in the tour

and so they said he was a real estate mogul George Washington so that got him sort of vaguely interested vaguely interested did he have condos no

did he have gold and cheap wood? No. No. Anyway, it was interesting. Anyway, it'll be interesting. That's a good prediction. Do you have a prediction? No, I don't.

I never have predictions. You're the prediction guy. We got to do, you know what we got to do that's fun is we got to time stamp them and then come back. Because sometimes when we're wrong, it's just fun to discuss it. Yes. And you know what? We're in the same room.

I know we are. If they feel a certain simpatico, if they feel a certain like electricity here, it's because we're in the same room. Yeah, but I'm leaving now because I got to go to an important event. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. You're having what? Dinner? You're rubbing La Roche-Posay on the small of the back of my boss's boss somewhere?

No, no. I'm going to the – Tina Brown's. La Roche-Posay. Where did I get that? I don't even know what that is. Oh, it's the best. I'm going to Tina Brown's Women in the World Conference here in New York. Yeah.

And I am going to interview two journalists, Maria Ressa and Carol Cadwallader, who did The Guardian of The Guardian. Captain Marvel will be there. Brie Larson's on before me. I'm so confused. And afterwards. Beauty and superheroes? What the fuck is going on here? I'm just saying, she's on before, and then Oprah's on.

I'm between Oprah and Brie Larson. I'm very excited. That is pretty cool. Yes, they're going to all be my best friends. Do you get to have dinner with them or drinks with them or anything? I have no idea. I'm just going to stand there and just say hope for best friend-ness of one of them. It doesn't matter.

And then tomorrow, I told you, besides Pelosi, I'm going to address the Democratic caucus about technology. Do you have any tips that I should talk to all the representatives? Don't worry about it. It's all awesome. No. What's the Democratic caucus? What do you mean? They meet in this place and they discuss issues. It's their issues conference. They all have them. Republicans have them. They go away and they like plot. I don't know what they do. Yeah.

It's at some point, it's time for you to do your damn job and start proposing legislation. The problem here is not these companies. They're doing their job. Their job is for profit entities. The problem here is not the technologies. The problem here is that you guys have failed to do what

every other lawmaker has done in the past and regulate these guys. I thought I got to start with a good joke. So my go-to is a joke my mother told me. What did the strawberry say to the other strawberry? Oh my god. I don't want to know. If we weren't caught in the same bed, we wouldn't be in this jam.

Come on. Genius. That's right. I'll be here all week. Try the veal. Here, wait. I got one for you. Okay.

Why did the chicken cross the road? Why? To get to your house. Knock, knock. Who's there? The chicken. That's a joke? That's brilliant. That's a brain teaser. Who's there? The chicken. That's a joke? That's brilliant!

That's a brain teaser. I couldn't even follow that. Get it? To get to your house. Knock, knock. It takes two classic jokes, brings them together. Are you sure you don't do drugs? My young son came up with that one.

Okay. Good. Anyway, I will give that message. Scott, thank you so much. It's time to go. Rebecca Sinanis produces this show. Nishat Kerwa is the executive producer. Thanks also to Eric Johnson.

Thanks again for listening to Pivot from Fox Media. We'll be back next week for more of a breakdown. Was that a sigh? You just sighed at me. A breakdown of all things tech and business. If you like what you heard, please subscribe, rate, and review Pivot on Apple Podcasts. podcast. I just don't get it. Just wish someone could do the research on it.

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