Pivot - Netflix’s Subscriber Surge, Tesla Earnings, and Guest James Bennet

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

Kara and Scott are back with you to discuss Oscar nominations, Jon Stewart’s return to The Daily Show, and Trump’s win in New Hampshire. Also, Netflix’s jump in subscribers, Tesla’s underwhelming earnings, and a Microsoft hits three trillion. Then they’re joined by Friend of Pivot, James Bennet, to discuss his recent essay, “When The New York Times Lost Its Way.” You can find James at @JBennet. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher and Scott is on a roll. I am. I was showing the staff all my kids' shoe paraphernalia when you have a 13-year-old.

By the way, we got a Year of the Dragon special low-rise Nike shoe in their drop yesterday. My son is very excited. He had every phone in the house bidding on it or signing up for it. I don't know what that is. We got a pair of low-rise. I don't know what they are either. You know, that stops. Alex was all into the shoes and they're now downstairs. I could pay for his college with them downstairs. We have boxes of them. Oh, really? Oh no. My son's a total capitalist. He's like the market, he's got a spreadsheet and he's like the market for these is about, you know, 400 bucks. And I think we can buy

them for 150. Anyways, we'll see. It's interesting. Alex had a really good time doing it. And it was about this age until he was about 16. Yeah, I'm totally into it. And I've worked for a bunch of those companies. I like the people and he's into it. You just want to lean into- Yeah.

StockX. Are you doing StockX? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We are all over StockX. They're a great company. But what, I don't know about you, what I thought, because I'm sure you're going to, whatever your response is going to be is exactly

the right response for a parent. But I thought that my kids would naturally just be really into World War II history and CrossFit, that they would just inherit my interests. Oh, no. And what you realize is, okay, you got to get past that. And what you just hope for, what you just hope for is they have interests. Yes, they will. That they're passionate about something and you just lean into it. So I go to these sneak-a-rama conferences and all this stuff. I am trying to insert all this. But I think you like it. I think you like it.

interest in sneakers. I have interest in bonding with my kids and getting them to be curious. But no, I mean, quite frankly, and I hate to say this, I have no interest in sports. And I've become a Premier League fanatic because that's how my boys and I bond. I think once they're out of the house, I'm not sure I'm going to go to a lot of Premier League games. Well, I don't know. I've picked up some things that they like and vice versa, I think. What'd you pick up? I am interested vaguely in hip hop. I think I've listened to more. Like that's something I wouldn't have listened to and they really like it.

And I've spent some time listening to it. I wouldn't say I'm an expert. Let's think with something. I think they actually like going to hardware stores. I'm a hardware store goer and I used to drag them. And at first it was like painful, but now I think- Yeah, I was talking about things that your kids got you into.

I'm sure they're also quite progressive and- Oh, hip hop, hip hop. I didn't have any knowledge of it and I still think I'm an idiot, but I really appreciate it. It's not a music genre I would have listened to. I'm still back in lesbian singers, kind of in Taylor Swift,

but I really, I can see why they like it and I've tried really hard to understand and listen to it. And I really enjoy a lot of it. So that's what I would say. I just wish in hip hop they'd stop using the N word so I could sing along. Oh. That's bad. That's bad.

Anyway. And now Louie's interested in punk rock. And I've been listening to a lot. And I kind of, I miss that whole thing. So anyway, music. Music for both of them. In any case, there are so many things we want to talk about today. We're going to zip through a bunch of stories, including Netflix's subscriber surge, a milestone for Microsoft and much more. We'll also talk with our friend of Pivot, James Bennett, a columnist

for The Economist and former editorial page editor of the New York Times. Full disclosure, I worked for him. He's written an essay about his exit from the Times and why he thinks the paper record has lost its way. But first, you're going to have to talk about this. The 2024 Oscar nominations are out and Barbie fans are pissed. And what did we say? We pass around a thing, an editorial thing via text. What did I say?

Don't. I don't want to talk about it at all because no one watches the Oscars. No one watches the Oscars. A story on Oscar snubs. I'm like, a story on Oscars is barely interesting enough. We're going to talk about snubs? Well, snubs have been a story. Every Oscar season, there's a snub. There's a snub. This is a big one. Yeah, and Angie Dickinson used to be in the news every week. I mean-

I get it, but this one is interesting. I the i want to talk to because we've talked about the strike a lot this movie along with oppenheimer single-handedly returned people to theaters oh wait wait hold on uh now i get it this isn't a discussion of oscar snubs it's an it's a discussion of how barbie and the patriarchy are taking over the oscar this is this is a film that should be seen as in a much different way look Look, Ryan Gosling got Best Supporting Actor. America Ferrero for Supporting Actress. Oh, my God. The man got it. The man got it.

So typical. It was the plot of Barbie. This was the plot. Oh, my God. He's white, too. And oh, wait, hold on. He's heterosexual. Oh, come on.

Margot Robbie carried that movie, for one. And Greta Gerwig, what an accomplishment this was. After years of it, by the way. She's been nominated before. You know, I think it's parallel to the plot of Barbie. You're a mojo dojo house. You are. You did not that you saw it.

And by the way, Ryan Gosling's on my side. He chimed in with a statement saying there's no Barbie without Ken. What the fuck is he going to say? What is he going to say? No, he's like this. He's a wonderful guy. I'm going to maybe think of him as my new co-host. I'll give him this.

He's got better abs. Yeah, I know he does. And of course, Hillary Clinton wrote to Robbie and Gerwig on X saying, you're both so much more than Knuff, which is funny. Good for Hillary Clinton. But, you know, I want to talk about this idea. I'm going to not focus on the Barbie because you're just, as with the Apple Vision Pro, you just have a point of view that you're not getting off of no matter what. I saw like 45 minutes of Barbie. That's not true.

I haven't even tried the mixed reality headset. What you did say is nobody cares about the Oscars, which used to be a big deal. So tell me why it's not important, say, from an economic point of view or a cultural point of view. I would like to hear you talk about that very briefly. It all reverse engineers to advice you should give your kid. And that is if your kid's interested in going into media or being a content creator, make sure or they understand that the return on investment on their human and financial capital will be inversely

proportional to the size of the screen they're producing content for. If they're producing, if they're going into an industry that is trying to produce content for a very big screen located in what is effectively a repurposed mall called a movie theater, they're going to struggle. And unless they're in the top 0.1%, as both Greta Gerwig and Christopher Nolan are, they're going to have a difficult time making a living. There's an 87.5% unemployment rate

for people in the front of the camera in the movie business, and even the people behind the camera are struggling. Producers, writers, TV is still an enormous business. It's much bigger. It's much bigger. But where you really want to be producing content is for a phone or for a video game console, which, by the way, is about $160 billion business relative to the $9 billion business that we have a fucking award ceremony over. So this is, we're literally hosting an award ceremony for the pimple on the elephant of content.

And I think the politicization of it, I think, you know, incredibly privileged people assaulting each other. I didn't think that helped very much. So, you know, do you think it just doesn't have any cultural relevance? And did the strike really put a knife in that finally or not? Or that was just already a trend? It's another step change down. There's just no doubt about it. You know, it's fun to see the outfits. These are incredibly beautiful, talented people.

But the reality is the motion picture industry, the film industry is just every year gets less and less relevant. I feel like the motion picture, I feel like the Academy Awards are the following. I imagine myself in 1978 going to a celebration of pilots for Pan Am Airlines. Really well done. A lot of hot people, a lot of tall, interesting, you know, men with thick hair and broad shoulders and comforting voices. And here's the thing. They're stars, but they're pilots for Pan Am and they're losing relevance. It's just this industry, the importance of art in telling stories, and this kind of goes back to one of our stories around the importance, I think, of Jon Stewart coming back, has never been

greater. Art is a fantastic way to soften the beach such that people are willing to listen to new ideas. I enjoyed, there were some aspects of Barbie I thought, oh, that's really, I like, you know, I'm a sucker for the mother-daughter stuff. And that softens the beach and I open my mind to new ideas and things that I wouldn't have considered before. And in an era where people are becoming increasingly entrenched in their own ideologies, art is a fantastic way to open people's minds. I think it plays an incredibly important role. This art form has less and less influence and importance over fewer and fewer people. Thank you. I got you to say something insightful and smart there. That's my point with doing this.

I didn't want to just argue about Barbie, although she should have gotten a nod. Nonetheless. Who did get a nod? I don't even know. I don't even there. That's my point with doing this. I didn't want to just argue about Barbie, although she should have gotten a nod. Nonetheless. Who did get a nod? I don't even know. I don't even care. That's the thing. That's the thing. Who knows?

Who cares? Well, you know, they have to give it to Scorsese no matter what. Jesus Christ. Killers of the artistic masturbation. I mean, Jesus Christ. Let me just say, I went to see Origins this weekend, which I thought was, as I told you, was a great film.

And I got to say, the theaters were hacked. I was surprised. This is the first time I've seen them packed. And it was not older people. It was younger people. That was interesting to me. So I think if there is super relevant movies like Barbie or Oppenheimer or right now, I think it was Mean Girls was really pulling it.

I do think it's relevant to people. I do. I don't. You're being sentimental. No, I'm not. Because I think things like, all these things like Taylor Swift, this experience, or certain movies like the Barbenheimer thing, and I know they hate putting them together. There is, if you have stuff they really like, every movie theater I've gone to has been packed recently. And I have been seeing movies in theaters more lately because I want to have that particular experience.

And I like a lie-back chair. But I think if you do have these movies that do drag people in, it is a good thing. And you can see an increased relevance to it if it's the right combination. I do. I do. I think it is. And my Macintosh vinyl turntable is awesome. No, no, no, no. I'm telling you, this was packed it is. And my Macintosh vinyl turntable is awesome. No, no,

no, no. I'm telling you, this was packed with young people. Hold on. Hold on. I hate to have data get in the way of a narrative here. Okay. Go ahead. Yes, I know. It's data. I've written columns on this. Box office receipts are 20% below pre-pandemic levels. I agree. I mean, that means the industry is going away. Or it means that certain smaller ones will have more impact, but you can have impact. There will always be a market for turntables. There will always be a market. I wrote a whole column saying this. I get your point. I am on your side on this. The video industry, video game industry, and where are the awards for that? We don't talk about snubs. Yes, there are. but we don't we don't talk about the snubs for who did who let that world of warcraft didn't get

the nomination this i know yes that's true we're gonna go to that where you and i are gonna moderate that one okay i would love to do that that would be good we'd have we know nothing about video i mean you know interestingly i'm gonna my son's left their video game here um we're moving and we're doing some renovations i'm'm going to start playing video games. I have the Nintendo Switch. I'm going to figure it the fuck out. I'm going to- I need to do it too.

I just was like, I need to understand this much better. I've done a little bit. Speaking of, you did mention Jon Stewart's returning to The Daily Show after almost a decade. Stewart will host the show on Mondays, sort of like a Rachel Maddow move throughout the 2024 election and serve as executive producer through 2025. Of course, he had been working for Apple with his show, which I thought got better and better, but ultimately he quit or they had a parting of the ways. The Daily Show has been on lookout for a new host since Trevor Noah left December 2022. I think Jon Stewart,

really, I had done an interview with him last year where I asked him if he was relevant a year and a half ago anymore. We had a great interview. And I think where I asked him if he was relevant a year and a half ago anymore. We had a great interview. And I think that show that he was doing for Apple got better and better, especially his interviews. So I'm pretty – he's still the GOAT. I'm sorry. He's really quite good. It's like Christiane Amanpour.

There's certain people that are just – they don't lose a step, I think. And he's relevant to young people. My kids love him. What do you think? Will you be watching? I will. Well, it's another indication of just how much the industry has changed. When he signed off The Daily Show, he was averaging, I think, two or two and a half million viewers.

Do you know what it was when Trevor Noah signed off? About a half a million. Wow. Viewership's down 75%. And by the way, Trevor Noah is an immense talent. He's terrific. He is. The industry is just dramatically

changed. I think the person who this absolutely helps the most, 100%, is Joe Biden. Because one of the big losses for the Democratic Party was when Senator Gillibrand took what I felt were fairly, I don't know, minor charges against Senator Franken and got him kicked out of the Senate based on a Democratic Party where we eat our own and want to virtue signal and play identity politics. And the reason why he was such a powerful voice for Democrats is because he could deftly combine issues and humor. is because he could deftly combine issues and humor. Jon Stewart, once a week, will highlight a number of issues, and I bet a third to half of them are how insane it is that our country,

that likes to think it's a democracy, is a substantial number of them have decided to embrace autocracy. And he'll say it in a way that really resonates with people. He'll soften the beach. It's impossible to suss this out or to try and normalize, but I would bet that Jon Stewart returning to TV and all of... And it won't be about the TV show. It'll be about the clips that get clipped and circulate on social media, but every week he's going to be hammering home to moderates that are deciding this election. And young people. Yeah. Just basically saying, regardless of what you feel, regardless of your emotions, regardless of whether you're angry or not, do you really want to go back there? Yeah, I agree. Do you really want to go

back there? I think it's a huge one. I don't know what they're paying him, but Biden should match it. Let me just say, John Oliver and him together, as a mother of young people who are going to be voting, and this will be Alex's first election, presidential election, they hang on every word of Oliver, and they love Stewart. But I have to tell you, they're very influential among young people. They have resonance in really interesting ways, because they're funny and smart and insightful. I'm just so freaked out about the fact. None of us wanted to believe it, but it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee. Yes, we're going to get to that right

now, actually. Okay, so President Trump swept another win in the New Hampshire GOP primary. Nikki Haley did not make the impression she hoped. She didn't do badly, securing 43% of the vote compared to Trump's 54%. They thought it would be a much wider gap, but it wasn't, but it was still wide enough, 11%. She did manage to win all the independent voters, very bad signs for Trump in those areas. She's determined to stay in place of the race. I think that's probably a smart move, saying New Hampshire is the first in the nation, it's not the last. On the Democratic side, President Biden won via a writing campaign quite handily. Once again, he's such a loser, he keeps winning, which is kind of interesting, or the Democrats do. I think Haley will stick in. I was with people who knew her this week um and i i think

she's it's the right bet for her not to go anywhere until it's super interesting and what it looks like is this isn't it's not her decision it's that some very big what i'll call establishment republican donors and moderates want to dent president trump's chances of being reelected. And the best way for the next month or six weeks is to have Governor Haley, who seems to have found her voice lately, and seems to have found an issue that the nation needs more youth. Biden and Trump are the same person. They're old, and they shouldn't be president. It is going to hurt him. And not only that, it's yet another distraction other than the 91 criminal accusations he has from being able to start to run against Biden. And I think that her donors, typically when your donor doesn't see a path to the White House and for them to get

more subsidies for their iron ore smelting firm or the chance to be an ambassador to Spain or whatever, they stop right away. Once it looks like there's no path to victory, they stop donating. This is interesting. She's actually raising a decent amount of money. She's finding her voice. She's going to dent him. There's the narrowest of lanes, but if he trips, she's right there. And she's right there. And there's enough of a chance. It's not a non-zero chance he'll trip in some way. All right. So Haley's still in the race. She should stay in the race. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Netflix's big week, Tesla's underwhelming earnings, not a surprise, and more. Plus, we'll

chat with James Bennett. He's very saucy. He's a saucy man about the New York Times and the current state of journalism. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion.

It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize?

What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Indecision. Overthinking. second-guessing every choice you make. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige on beige on beige.

In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back. We still have a lot to talk about. Let's start with Microsoft's major milestone. The company reached the $3 trillion market cap this week. It's only the second company ever to hit that mark after Apple shares, and Apple's up there still, I think, shares of Microsoft hit a record high of $405.63

during trading on Wednesday. Much of the gain seems to be tied with optimism around AI and specifically its partnership with OpenAI. Shortly before we started recording, Microsoft announced 1,900 layoffs in its gaming divisions, speaking of gaming, and 8% of that group. They also announced they're going to have a cheaper AI that competes. They're competing also with OpenAI, by the way. Aside from those layoffs, what do you think they knew to keep them in mind? Satya Nadella, talk about a superstar executive here.

He's outstanding. They have, maybe with the exception of Search, probably more so than Search because it's more diversified. What do you think? 97% or 98% of every company globally, other than communist countries, that's over a billion in revenue, has a recurring revenue relationship of hundreds of thousands of dollars with Microsoft. And in addition, they probably are going to be credited with what is the most deft corporate venture investment in

history with their investment in open AI. I mean, it's a well-run- Timing. And not only that, the cultural turnaround, they're seen as a good partner now. They're being very smart. He kind of knows when to be quiet and stay out of the way of the FTC's crosshairs. It's just an incredibly well-managed company, great CEO, great products. I mean, just in a, you know, it's hard to imagine a company performing better. He has clarified that company. Clarify, that's a great word.

He has clarified that company. You know, I think they, I remember when they were into cable, then they were doing MSN, and they were doing, you know, he has cleaned that place up. But I don't know what's going on in the gaming division, but, you know, they just got the Activision deal is done. So we'll see where that goes. I mean, I think that's still an enormous business for them, by the way, even if they had layoffs.

As I said, some of these companies are cleaning up stuff and figuring out where they need to go in the future. Because I suspect gaming will be hugely impacted by AI. So, you know, a winner. He's a winner and deserve it of this kind of thing. It's great if you have the thing. Speaking, another company had a pretty good week, Netflix. This company, remember, about a year and a half ago, we were talking about all the problems there. If there's any doubt that it's the king of video streaming, there are no doubts anymore. And the numbers released this week, listen to this. Netflix added 13 million new subscribers in Q4, bringing the total amount of paid subscribers to over 260 million, a new record

for the service. A lot of that was about cleaning up their subscriber base because several people using the same account. Revenue in Q4 grew 12% year over year to $8.83 billion. It's advertising business is going rather well, I think. Netflix also announced a $5 billion 10-year deal with WWE to stream its flagship wrestling show Raw. Smart, smart, smart, smart. And Tuesday, it garnered 18 Oscar nominations. Most of any studio, this follows the news that Scott Stuber, Netflix head of film, is departing to launch a new venture. They're not going to make as many, I think. That was an interesting, because he was a big figure there. So people, I've read different things

about that, but this is what happens at Netflix. They always move executives around and they seem to keep going as a juggernaut. It's really hard to compete with Netflix at this point. I mean, they're making money, the others are losing money. That doesn't mean that Disney or Max won't make money because I think eventually that's where they are. They're in that valley of death area. That's hard to get through, but they will. What do you think about this? I mean, just an incredible company with incredible management. Also, one of the few companies like this that has co-CEOs, I believe. Yeah. I just, I don't know the other guy. I know Ted's around us a little bit. Greg.

I saw Greg speak at Canon, as you would expect, like just obviously a clear blue flame thinker. Every time I listen to Ted, I just find him, I like his humility. And he just, he listens. And then if you think about this company, they have pulled, they pulled off the greatest pivot in business history. They used to mail DVDs to people. And, and then you want to talk about aggressive. They said to the marketplace, we're going to run away with it with unparalleled content budgets so no one else can match. And thank you, Rider Strike, for the last two years, they haven't, for the first time, they haven't increased their content budget while maintaining their momentum because their content pool is greater than anyone else's. And guess what? When your costs stay static and your subscribers continue to grow, boom, cocaine and champagne on the bottom line. Their revenues, their, I'm sorry,'m sorry their earnings i mean it's just i go to them first because you know they do have a

lot of sort of shitty little movies but i like them anyway and then you could you turn around and there's stranger things or there's um or there's always something or beef you know then there's really good stuff um i would say the same about Max. I got to say The True Detective, and there's always something on there. And for my kids, there's always something on Disney. And then there's individual shows on Apple, Amazon, and Paramount. Particularly, Paramount's got quite a few I like. But those are the three that are kind of killing it. You summed it up perfectly. The key word you said was shows. So when Apple has Ted Lasso, people sign up, binge it, and then cancel.

The churn is something like 7%. For all of these guys. The churn on Netflix is way below. It's crazy. There was some statistics someone put up. It's consistently been low. It's consistently been low. It's crazy.

Well, the numbers are the following. For everyone else, it's 4% to 8%. For Netflix, it's 2%. And let me give you two more numbers. Consistently, right? Consistently. That's right. Let me give you two more numbers, 5% and 350%. The writer's strike garnered their members a 5% increase in salary right away. A 5% increase in salary right away. The ability for a, or the imposed multilateral stoppage and spend has resulted in Netflix free cashflow growing 350% this year. It's gone. Their free cashflow has gone from 1.6 billion in 2022 to 7 billion. Netflix, if they were honest and the world was somehow, all the moons totally lined up or there was any justice, Netflix would send the writer's union 10 to $20 million in options. It is literally the best thing that could have happened for Netflix was an ability to stop the spending while running away because they already have that basic content

that is not time-based. And then going to weekly sports, which is a WWE, it's not like baseball that has a- Yeah, it has a stickiness. Every week, every week there are performances. I won't even call them fights. There are performances. It has a huge base.

It was a smart move. It was a smart move. I think they're going to beef up their video games. I think the gangster acquisition would be, and now they have the market cap to do it as if they bought Epic Games. My son is literally addicted to Fortnite. And two, I got to think at some point they're going to get into news, but you summarized it. There's three big players now. There's Netflix, which is sort of the Toyota. You just got to have it. It's the car. You got to have it. It has such a deep, Wednesday or whatever it is. It's just got, it's every-

It's just, there's always something on it. There's always- It's almost a utility at this point. It's just content, the basic content. Don't even know what I pay for it. I never just, and I would do the advertising if I didn't have money. HBO is the artisanal network. It's Succession, The Last of Us. That culture there consistently punches above its weight class. It's the artisanal network. And Max, I mean, they just, HBO, unbelievable. And then Disney will own family.

You can't have kids and not have Disney, I don't think. And then everybody else is going to consolidate or be acquired. Yeah. And there's some individual, it's interesting because it's so funny, speaking of Warner, when Jeff Bukas called them back in 2010, the Albanian army, it's not like a little bit like, is the Albanian army going to take over the world? Yes, Jeff, the Albanian army did take over the world. Jeff, the Albanian army did take over the world. I have to say, Barry Dozier was the only one back then consistently that said Netflix is going to kill everybody. They're so good. But a lot of people disdain them.

And now they're laughing all the way to the back. I do think a lot of people are going to get more into advertising the way Netflix. It's always doing something fresh. And I think this WWE thing is really cool. I'm defensive because Jeff Bukas is a mentor of mine. I know he is. I love Jeff Bukas. He's great. Hold on. But you want to talk about someone who actually recognized the threat of Netflix? Yes. He told his board to sell Time Warner. And

CEOs are never good at this. CEOs are never very good at wanting to sell because they like having an empire and flying private and getting invited to the Academy Awards. When literally Time Warner was at its peak, he cashed out and told his board to sell. So he saw, he may have made an offhanded curt statement about Netflix, but he saw the danger and said, guys, it is time to get out of Dodge. And you know who also sold the same year? Who? Rupert Murdoch. Yeah, he did.

He sold that. When Rupert Murdoch and Jeff Bukas decide to sell something, you don't want to be on the other side of that trade. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. He knows that was stupid. I've talked to him a lot about it. I think he's a really smart and savvy person.

And by the way, ran HBO. He's the one who really got HBO to move to the top tiers and then followed by Richard Plummer. Sold the magazines before they started to die, spun the cable assets. All about shareholder value. Yep, he did. He did. Smart. Smart guy. Great hair. I'm not insulting him, spun the cable assets, like all about shareholder value. Yep, he did. He did. Smart, smart guy.

Great hair. I'm not insulting him, but the Albanian, that will go with him his whole life. Great hair, great hair. Meanwhile, Tesla is also reporting its latest earnings and warning that sales growth may be, quote, notably lower in 2024. Not a surprise to Scott or Cara. Revenue came in at $25 billion, up 3% from a year ago, but lower than expected. I'm surprised they got 3%.

Actually, that's good for them for doing that. The quarterly profit doubled from a year ago, but it's mostly due to a one-time tax benefit. Little accounting tricks. Elon said on the earnings call that Tesla expects to begin production of the next-gen lower-cost vehicle. That's what he's been promising. He should be doing that. Toward the end of 2025, he also doubled down on his comments about wanting 25% of the next gen lower cost vehicle. That's what he's been promising. He should be doing that toward the end of 2025. He also doubled down on his comments about wanting

25% of the voting control. He's just like, literally, this guy shoots himself in. I don't think he's got any feet left to shoot himself in. You know, it's interesting. My brother, I was with him the last couple of days, has a Tesla and he can't sell it because of all the price declines. And he doesn't want to keep it because he doesn't much like Elon. He kind of thinks some of these new cars are great. And it's also against the backdrop of EV. People have kind of reached their limit on EVs for now. I don't think it's forever because there's some exciting stuff coming out and eventually people will move over. But you now have choice. You have an idiotic behavior on the part of a CEO, and you're making it so they can't sell the cars, right equity, he's going to take the IP of the company and the AI goes somewhere else.

It's turning into an auto company, a low margin auto company. And this morning on the opening bell, Tesla shed the value of BMW. And that's not the story. The story is just how incredibly overvalued this company is. It's still, even after this morning's 10% drop, it's worth 500. It was way up at 200. What did it go to? It dropped to 186 bucks, but the market cap is 585 billion, which is more than, I mean, BMW is worth 50 billion. Yeah.

I mean, I think Toyota's 250 or 300. That's a good car. It's just, this company, and I just want to be clear, whatever I say about Tesla stock, you should do the opposite based on my track record. But from a fundamental bottoms-up valuation, if this stock were to lose 80% of its value, it still wouldn't look cheap. It wouldn't look like it was a value. It would still look expensive relative to automakers. I think he is thinking SpaceX is the next raft for him. Oh, and it might be. That's all. And he's just decided.

That's what he's doing. He's like, Starlink, SpaceX, that might be his. But at the same time, he's antagonizing government. And by the way, if Trump don't win, he's facing a world of hurt from the government, I think. Not just because they're after him, and I don't think of that in that way, but Trump will just back him no matter what. But he's got some, there's some issues. People are going to start looking for, just like they are with cars, other alternatives, other alternatives. By the way, SpaceX is a terrific company and innovative in many,

as we both said, we like SpaceX, Space Karen, we like Space Karen. But yeah, it's interesting. But yeah, it's interesting. I've talked to so many Tesla owners who are like, ugh, I want to get rid... Even they want to try the new cars because they like electric cars, right? They can't sell them. They can't sell them because there's so many out there. And then, of course, Hertz dumped their deal there. I talked to the Hertz people because I do tend to rent an electric car when I'm saying, I have a plug in San Francisco. I just tried out the Kia. The new Kia is terrific. I try out a different one every time. Yeah, we should just asterisk this. So you have literally the worst taste in cars in history. I understand that, but I'm saying there's all kinds of interesting stuff. I do. I love my Kia.

I love that. That's growth. Our work is done here. There's a new, new Kia. It's got three seats and it's fully electric. But I was thinking about that when I was talking to my brother about his Tesla. And his wife has a Chevy Bolt also, like myself. And I love my Chevy Bolt. I love it. I have enthusiasm. And he's like, ugh, my Tesla. It. It's, and it's not just because of Elon. He just wants, he just is, is irritated on lots of levels.

It's, he's, he's, he's been irritated financially. It's a great car. It's still a great car. My argument is it's just overvalued. My,

to be fair, one of my 16 year olds friends, you know, this is, this is the, the life of hard knocks that are my kids and their friends. They're all getting, you know, cars because they turned, well, at least in Florida. And one of them bought a, you know, bought a Tesla.

And I thought it was reasonably priced. I mean, the prices have come down dramatically. Yeah, the prices are great. The prices are great. But that's why we're getting these results from Tesla. We'll see what happens. I mean, I just think he's facing a lot of headwinds, but he's going to try to jump onto the spaceship of SpaceX. Okay, Scott, let's get to our friend of Pivot. Lots to talk about here. James Bennett is the Lexington columnist for The Economist and former editorial page editor of The New York Times. Full disclosure, I worked for him.

He hired me when I was writing for The Times. And Scott, just for your awareness, I was just as irritating to him as I am to you. He recently wrote a lengthy essay for The Economist titled When the New York Times Lost Its Way, about his 2020 departure from the paper. The essay also examines how the Times is, in his words, quote, becoming a publication through which America's progressive elite talks to itself about an America that does not really exist. Wow, James, when I read that, it was something else. So let's talk about that. This was a couple weeks ago. It's been three years since you left the Times. Tell me why you wrote about this now. And for people who don't know, you resigned after the section you oversaw published an op-ed by Senator Tom Cotton calling for a military response to protests happening around the country. It was

a piece that faced criticism both internally and externally. You write that you initially had the support of your bosses, but that changed as the outcry grew. So I'm giving people a background who might not know it. So tell me why you decided three years later to write this. I thought you'd write it right away, but you didn't. Give us the background. Yeah, I mean, the short answer, Cara, is that my boss, the editor of The Economist, asked me to, Zannie Minn-Bettos, because she's kind of concerned about the direction of American journalism. But, you know, I've obviously lived with this since then and turned it over in my head a lot.

I didn't want to say something immediately, partly because I didn't want to write out of anger. And I needed to give the episode a lot of thought. But I keep getting asked about it. You know, this episode, this explosion at the Times was just part of that crazy summer of 2020 that I think we haven't really reckoned with. And I'm, you know, I'm also I'm worried about the direction of journalism, where the combination of technology, the business model and our own politics are taking

it. And I think we kind of need to reckon with that as journalists, but also as readers. So in the essay, you describe the Times as embracing illiberalism. That's quite a thing to say. Tell us what you mean by that. And I'll tell you, the New York Times publisher, A.G. Selzberger, who used to be your boss, who you wrangle with, responded to your essay, James was a valued partner, but where I parted ways with him is on how to deliver on those values. He went on to say principles alone are not enough, execution matters, leadership matters. That was kind of a slapadoo. Talk about what you mean by embracing illiberalism. Yeah, look, and Kara, if you guys want to get into the whole execution, I will defend the execution of that column and get into more detail on why the specifics of that.

I'm more concerned about the general question. But in referring to illiberal bias, I'm trying to make a distinction there, Cara, between what I think was the Times' old problem. And look, I was a reporter at the New York Times for 15 years. I spent 19 years of my career at the Times. I was gone for 10 years as the editor of Atlantic. I came back to what I think of now as a very different paper, much better in a lot

of ways, but very different culturally and very different in terms of its values. Old problem, liberal bias that we were taught to struggle against. I want to stress the danger of illiberalism in journalism and the society in general today, by which I mean a lack of tolerance for people who just see the world very differently than we do, a lack of interest in engaging debate, questioning our own assumptions, challenging our own view of the world, and really hearing from people that see things very differently. And I think that has become the problem, you know, not just at the Times, but at a lot of our institutions, including, you know, it explains part of the blow up we're seeing on college campuses today. The issue I had with that piece, and this is the Tom Cotton piece in specifics, is that he was saying one thing in one place and not representing it in the Times piece. That was my issue, was that I felt like you were letting him be a little better behaved over at the Times when he was saying some very significant things that were left out. So he had two audiences, and that to me was the problem. It wasn't hearing from him. It's hearing fully from him, right? Where he played games. That was my biggest issue, is not letting him clean it up a little bit for

this group versus what he was saying over to the right. So I get your point about not hearing people. And the response was massive at the time. It was shocking to actually see. You know, I was surprised how quickly it was. Can you comment about that, what happened there with the pylon on you at the time? And I don't call it a pylon, but people disagreed with you. Well, I guess I disagree. I understand what you're saying, Cara, but I actually do disagree with it. I mean, we cleaned up people all the time who said certain things in certain forms, and we insisted they meet different standards for us when they

wrote for The Times. And what he wrote, which you say was cleaned up, was still way beyond the pale for a lot of our colleagues at The New York Times. And that's where the pushback came from. And in my view, this is the way it's supposed to work. Like, this is how opinion journalism is supposed to work. Tom Cotton makes his argument, which, by the way, polling showed a majority of Americans shared at the Times. The pushback comes. We have a debate about it, and we discuss whether this idea is, in fact, dangerous or not. And the polling showed that that's the way it played out. Support for the idea actually

dropped after Tom Cotton made his argument in the Times. So if anything, what I think of is the liberal idea, the old-fashioned idea about wide-ranging debate and engaging questions that some people might think are unsafe. And by the way, we were publishing pieces at the Times that said we should abolish the police, we should abolish the prisons. Those are also ideas that people find, some people find pretty scary. That idea played out, in my view, the way it's supposed to in real time. journalists said that that piece had made them unsafe. And I, again, like, and I sound, I worry, I don't mean to sound defensive and self-pitting. I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong about all this stuff. And the reason I'm on your show is I want to continue debating all this stuff.

But I think that in itself, if Times reporters are actually shutting down debate by saying an idea makes them unsafe, that's problematic to my mind. And it springs from, just think through the logic of that. How could the idea make them unsafe? What had to happen was Tom Cotton had to publish his idea. It had to convince Times readers that troops should go into the streets of America, and those troops should have somehow been open fire on Times reporters or hurt Times reporters. That was the chain of logic. Breaks down, you know, you and I have had this debate when people have never felt unsafe. They don't know what it's like. And when people have endured lack of safety for a long time, they have a different response. Yeah, but the term unsafe is a bit of like a dog whistle. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Scott. Jump in here.

James, really nice to meet you. Only political fundraiser I've ever hosted was for your brother. And I'm just an enormous fan. We love him. I'm an enormous fan. And it's almost eerie. You don't look anything alike, but you sound identical. For people who don't know, his brother happens to be a U.S. senator.

Yeah, an outstanding senator. Anyway, both Kara and I have been involved with The Times on different levels for a long, long time. And I agree. I believe over the last 10 years, the Times has lost credibility as an honest broker. I mean, every media company has a bias. I feel like it just starts more strongly with a bias than ever. And it reduces the veracity of their very important opinion. And what I still believe is the best journalism in the world, which is the actual quality of the journalism. I want to put forward a thesis for why that happens, and I want you to give me a view on

whether you think that's correct or not. I got to know the owners quite well, and now they own 2% of the company but have total control over it, including what is the most probably seminal influence, and that is the publishers. The last few publishers have been part of the family. And my impression is the people these folks hang out with and the people that are important to them and the accolades and rewards that are important to themically sealed in a bubble that they don't even know what they don't know. I just think the people in control of this company have totally lost touch with what is actually going on out there and can't even acknowledge the viewpoint. That was a word salad, but what are your thoughts? Yeah, first of all, Scott, thank you. And I just want to stipulate what you said because it needs to be said every time. They're great journalists at the New York Times doing amazing work. And a lot of them are taking tremendous physical risks to do their work. I'm thinking about, you know, journalists that are operating in places like Ukraine right now. So I don't want to take away from any of that. And this is an institution that, as I said, I devoted 19 years to. I wrote the piece because I care about it and in an effort to be constructive. Again, Cara, one reason I waited, I'm not looking to settle scores. I'm looking to, I am moving on. And I feel like now I've done my part.

Which some people think you are. Just, you're aware of that, correct? Oh, sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I don't think everybody does. In fact, I was really heartened by the response. I think this is heartfelt. Heartfelt. Yeah. Yeah. I'm doing the best I can. But anyway, Scott, yes, I think that's true of a lot of people, the leadership and a lot of people that work at The Times. I think, you know, there are way too many people who live in New York City who spend all their time with each other within the bubble of the New York Times building. Too many of the journalists are captured in the newsroom. I think it's a problem at every level. And they're not really, and this is something the Times is quite conscious of.

We used to talk about it in the leadership of the Times all the time, that people weren't out in the country enough. I'm talking now about the journalists, not just about the Sulzberger family. I think it's more a question of the journalists themselves. And then you put on top of that the way the institution has had to change to embrace the digital future, all the hundreds of engineers that have been hired, the new digitally focused salespeople that arrived, all this stuff happened in a huge sort of existential crisis that began with the collapse in 2008, 2009. And all these people arrived with their own idea of what the times is supposed to be and without kind of being acculturated in the traditions of the place. And that's all contributed to this kind of bubble of ideological bubble that I think too many of the folks are operating in. When you think about that, how do you solve that?

Because New York Times has always been on the Upper East Side of New York. This is not a new, fresh, you know, so is the big network, so is everybody else. How do you solve for something like that? How do you see people being solved? And again, I'm not here to prosecute a case against the New York Times endlessly. I do think it's the broader question that we should be thinking about, which is about generally a problem in our politics as well as our journalism right now. I think the way I think about solving it journalistically is being very clear about what the role of the institution is, you know, being very clear about, you know, on the opinion side, what a wide-ranging debate

actually should look like and getting kind of agreement on that when people come in the door to the place. I don't think it's that hard to say this is what we stand for. And if you don't like it, you should probably work someplace else. But then pushing the journalists out of their comfort zone, getting them to go, you know, when I was a, and again, I start to sound like an old guy shaking his fist at the kids to get off his lawn. And I don't want to be that person. There was a lot of problem with the old days that I don't want to bring back. But I think a lot, a great, a great executive editor of the New York Times, Joe Lelyveld, just passed away. And when Joe was in charge, and I was the kind of up-and-coming political reporter. He used to make us write these kinds of pieces that we hated called Voices Pieces,

where you had to go to like a swing town like York, Pennsylvania is one place I went. And you had to knock on that you couldn't interview people in diners. You couldn't go to malls or stop people on the street. You had to knock on their doors, get invited into their house like a vampire, and sit down with them and talk to them about their lives and their politics. And the pieces that came out of this were really boring often, and like long block quotes. And, you know, they weren't, they just weren't really compelling stories. You're kind of person to person to person. And it's like only years later

did the penny drop for me. And I realized what he was doing, what Joe was doing was teaching us. You know, he wanted the political reporters to have that kind of experience, to understand the intelligence and complexity, the intelligence of like the average American, the decency and the way the politics, they actually thought about politics in their lives. and the way the politics, they actually thought about politics in their lives. And that's the kind of work that I think you have to make journalists do to overcome their own kind of assumptions about what this country is actually like. You got to trust the reader. You got to trust the reader with this stuff. So let me ask you, what did you do wrong here? Because come on, James, Tom Cotton, it's like red flag, red flag, you know what I mean? And he likes to be at his most angry.

What do you think you could have done differently here? And I don't think it's all on you by any means. And ultimately, the Salzburgers get to decide whatever they want. And I've had plenty of issues with the New York Times, good and bad, right? they want. And, you know, I've had plenty of issues with the New York Times, good and bad, right? So what do you imagine you should have done differently here? Or was there no other way if you were going to pull someone like Tom Cotton calling for troops on American soil? What do you imagine you could have done differently? Look, you know, in the piece, I go through a number of, I've got plenty of criticisms of myself and my leadership of the opinion department.

And there's a lot I could have done, I'm sure, differently in retrospect. You know, we could have put a different headline on the piece. There's certain things like we could have, I was faulted for a number of things. We could have put a different headline on the piece. We could have, you know, toned down the language in some places. And the bigger concern I have is the double standard. Like if we're going to subject Tom Cotton to that kind of stuff, we ought to be subject to it. You know, we should be editing all our pieces to the same standard. And I don't think that piece was held to a lower standard. You might make an argument that it should have been held to a higher standard. But there, you know, I think any sensitive piece should be held to a very high standard. And I had a lot of faith in our team.

And I don't think that faith was misplaced. And I'm not going to sit here now and trash our old colleagues and say, you know, myself, sure, what should I? I don't know. You tell me. I thought you should have saw it coming. Scott? Just in the spirit of Canada,

I'm just a little uncomfortable with the interview because whether Tom Cotton, whether it's healthy for America to hear the views of someone, I would argue let him speak. And this is going to come across as blowing smoke. He did write a 50 million word piece, but go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Keep going, Scott. I just think you're outstanding. I loved your work at The Atlantic. I loved your work at The Times. I think you do outstanding work. I just think it's strange that people would focus on this one millimeter of your career. Anyways, when you look to people who are able to thread the needle here and bring

a viewpoint and be thoughtful and call it out when it needs to be and not engage in both-sidism, which I think we get a lot of in media, but at the same time recognize or try and give some oxygen to the other side or a varying viewpoint, who do you think does it well? Yeah, specifically in terms of opinion journalism, I think in terms of like classic kind of reporting journalism, it's interesting. I think that business publications in general are doing a better job of keeping their poise. I just think they can't screw around as much. So I think the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, those guys, actually think Politico is doing a really good job covering our politics and a pretty good job with their opinion stuff, too, which tends to range pretty widely. But in general, I think what we're losing is, and I think the Washington Post actually publishes a wider range of views right now than the New York Times does.

But nobody, I think, is doing it really well now, honestly, Scott. I think what's happening is that the media landscape kind of splinters, and we're returning to kind of almost more of a 19th century kind of model where everybody with a printing press and a compelling voice can put their words at their own ideas in the world. A lot of good comes with that. And readers get to choose their own adventure. Right. So, one of the things you did in the piece I thought was important, and let me make Scott less awkward, I guess, but I think it's a fascinating discussion. You saw parallels in sort of what's happening in colleges, anti-Semitism, DEI. You say,

leaders of many workplaces and boardrooms across America find it so much easier to compromise than confront. Can you talk about this? I thought that was one of the more important lines in the piece. Well, again, it goes back to this idea, you need to be up front with people and clear when they walk in the door about what the principles of the organization are and what it stands for. And not that you shouldn't debate those two and be open to conversation about them, but you should kind of insist on the values of the place. And I think what has happened on college campuses is they've allowed their speech codes to get tied in knots in recent years, and nobody's clear anymore on what the boundaries of debate are.

And rather than promoting, you know, in my view, the important role they should be playing, which is promoting debate, being basically safe spaces for unsafe ideas, promoting tolerance for a wide range of views. They've been shutting it down selectively. And that's what created this blowback when all of a sudden they were upset about certain viewpoints that were being expressed after the Hamas attack of October 7th. So, you know, and I think that the same uproar we've seen within companies where managers or, you know, any employee can say that they're being made to feel unsafe by something that their boss has done. And a lot of, certainly editors at The Times, but I think this is true elsewhere in corporate America right now, everybody's walking around on eggshells as a result of that. in corporate America right now. Everybody's walking around on eggshells as a result of that. Scott, this is his area. By the way, I'm constantly felt unsafe by Scott,

but I'm handling it. But go ahead. Yeah, it's the patriarchy we're coming for you. My sense is that it's worse on campuses than it is in the media. Where do you think, or when you were thinking about how to approach, do you think DEI is still a very important, I think it's played a hugely important role. Do you think

it's still important in corporations and media companies? Do you think it's also gone too far? It sounds like you believe it's probably gone too far on campuses. My sense is it's not as big a problem, and it's being used as a cudgel to try and reduce all progressive values in corporate America. And we need to distinguish between what's happened on campuses and within media companies. You played a senior role in a media company and an important organization. Where do you think DEI lies there? I totally agree with what you just said, Scott. I get asked all the time, do you think the pendulum is swinging back? This is what people always say. And I think it's exactly the wrong metaphor. I don't want the pendulum to swing back. I don't want to go back to the way things were

before. We've been making progress as a society, and we need to keep making progress. I just want to keep the good stuff and mitigate the bad stuff. I don't know, like, you know, keep the baby and throw out the bathwater. I think I'm a big believer in diversity, equity, and inclusion. My concern is that we are not in some ways taking a capacious enough approach to thinking about that and that the empathy that we show at last, particularly white people at last, are discovering that they can show to people, recognize that, you know, people with a different skin color have a very different experience in this country. We need to be able to extend that empathy also to people who have different politics than we do. And I think that's a problem to look through, a better rubric or lens to look through the American experience is wealthy or economically secure versus economically insecure?

To me, that's the more important divide. Yeah. I think we don't, I think right now, you know, we're so focused. We don't think enough about the role of class in American society. I think that's what you're saying. I think we, you know, particularly, I think this is particularly true on the left among the college educated kind of elite of the left, very, very focused on the role of race, not thinking enough about class. And honestly, I think that's partly because it makes a lot of white people, privileged white people feel uncomfortable. Like they've just managed to cross the Rubicon and recognize that their skin has given them privileges. And to then say, oh my gosh, I also have class privileges on top of that, it's almost too much to cope with.

It also means voting to increase your own taxes and get money away as opposed to putting out an Instagram post that says Black Lives Matter. It's much harder, right? Yeah, it's much harder. And exactly right. It would compel you to reckon in a way that I think would be ultimately much more constructive for the society with the way your privileges are actually distorting opportunity in this country. You know, just shifting the racial composition of the elite that attends Ivy League schools is not going to address, you know, the long-term problems in this country. Oh, my God. You two are like brothers.

I feel attacked. I feel unsafe. Oh, God. This is Scott's thing. And if I say I feel unsafe, that must mean I'm right. Shut the conversation down. You are unsafe. Baby, I'm dangerous.

I'm dangerous. You are the least dangerous person I know. But let me ask you a question because we only have a few more minutes. But one of the things I'd love to know if you were assigning right now, if you still had your job, two things. Right now, the financial models, the Times is doing rather well with its business model. It went over 10 million subscribers recently. But others are not. We saw the layoffs of the Los Angeles Times, Business Insider, number of media organizations, tech billionaires swooping in for control. Now they're losing money.

They're nervous about it. So there's all kinds of precariousness. But if you were running the section now in this incredibly, even more partisan time, what would you assign right now? Gosh, Cara, I haven't thought. I don't really think in those terms anymore. Kara. I haven't thought, I don't really think in those terms anymore. So I would be urging, again, I would be pushing people to, the opinion writers too, I'd just be urging them to,

I'd be pushing them to get out and engage, basically do more reporting out in the country. I think, you know, I was, as you know, I was trying to slow down a lot of the pace of the opinion work there and increase the, the ratio of reporting to, to, to, to opinion. Um, and I, I think, you know, I, I would, I, I think the time still is a problem, um, um, with, problem with capturing voices in middle America. I'd be pushing really hard also. This is something I really struggle with there. Back to Scott's point about class, trying to find more voices outside of the stable, the regular lineup of people who see the world super differently they're working at walmart they're whatever the voice today of kind of the working class of uh of america that used to be like a a pillar of opinion pages back when all call when all journalists weren't college educated, back when so many of them, you know, it was much more of a kind of working class profession. That voice has kind of disappeared now.

And I was trying when I was there to find it largely unsuccessfully. I'd be pushing really hard for that right now. All right, Scott, last question. So I don't know if you have other siblings, but just based on your and your brother's professional success, your parents did something right. What advice would you have for parents? Well, I mean, the two of you have done pretty well. My parents just set a really powerful example for us. um, this is Paul from Warsaw. She survived the Holocaust as a child, immigrated with her family to the U S and my grandparents were,

her parents also survived a profound influence of on us. They, they, they were, um, the most patriotic Americans I've ever known. They loved this country and they felt, um,

that it was a force for good in the world. And our father, you know, he worked in government, public servant, and he worked, you know, incredibly hard every day of his life. And again, I think was a man of, I'm sorry, And, again, I think was a man of, I'm sorry, he was a man of great integrity. And they just set an example for us of what you owed. So we were very, very, very fortunate. I do have one final question. When you're looking at the politics right now, your brother is quite forceful on the right.

He talks about the damage and everything else. How do you look at the current political situation, given it was hot when you had your troubles at the Times? How do you look at it now? Like, what are we going into? Very briefly, very briefly. Yeah, I mean, it's terrible. I'm covering this campaign and it's already quite toxic, you know. And right now, you know, this Ukraine funding and a resolution, you know, progress on the border, two things that we really desperately need, you know, that I think are really in the interest of the American people. You know, the deal that was starting to come together looks like it's falling apart and the reason is that it's inconvenient for the people that are running particularly for donald trump you know he's deliberately torpedoing this deal because he wants to keep the problem at the border um for his own politics that's just a terrible like that's a terrible reality that our politics have gotten so toxic that now

they're standing in the way of that kind of progress. So, you know, I think as journalists, all we can do is report this stuff as powerfully as possible and call them as we see them. That's our role. And I'm really hopeful that in the end, the American people were going to make the right choice next fall. That's all we can count on. But I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a really scary destabilizing time.

It certainly is. And it's getting worse, unfortunately. In any case, James, thank you so much. James and I always disagreed and argued, but I always enjoyed it. I have to say, I really enjoyed working with you, for you,

not really for you. Yeah, I think I was working for you, Cara, just to clarify what you said at the outset. Tell me about it. Tell me about it. In any case, thank you so much, James. We really appreciate it. Thanks, James. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me on, guys. All right, Scott, that was a gift to you. That's someone who's like you. I thought you'd like him. We really appreciate it. Thanks, James. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me on, guys. All right, Scott, that was a gift to you. That's someone who's like you. I thought you'd like him. We'll be back after this break for Predictions. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to

free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Scott, let's hear your prediction.

I only have one. I've joined this WhatsApp group talking about discussing TikTok. And there's some data coming out, an analysis that's been done of videos served to young people. And if you look at people under the age of 25, the ratio of people loosely categorized as pro-Palestine versus pro-Israel, it's about a three to two ratio. And then they looked at the number of videos served to young people, and they categorized those issues talking about the conflict in the Middle East as either being pro-Palestine or pro-Israel. Do you know what the ratio was of videos viewed by young people, pro-Palestinian videos versus pro-Israel videos? Do you know what the ratio was? What? No. 54 to 1. 54 to 1. TikTok has become the pro-Palestine, I won't say pro-Hamas, but the pro-Palestine media network for young people.

I mean, the amount of video that is being served to young people, and you'd say, well, that's just a reflection of what young people want. No, it's not. If you look at the same ratios on Meta or on YouTube, it's not anything like that. Something is going on here. YouTube. It's not anything like that. Something is going on here. And I've been saying this for a while. And I think the evidence is overwhelming that there is an outside force, the CCP, putting their thumb on the scale of content that they think will further divide us internally. The numbers here are staggering. And it bothers me and it upsets me that the White House has been banned. Anyone in government has been banned from using TikTok, so they don't see this, what's going on.

Well, yeah. I mean, maybe some people should watch it on safe. I think they're worried about safety in that case, but go ahead. But my prediction is the following. I think sooner rather than later, we're going to find out that we have been subjects of what is one of the most elegant, insidious, and obvious in hindsight, propaganda attacks by the CCP. That is, they can't beat us kinetically. They can't beat us militarily. They can't beat us economically.

By the way, the Chinese stock market, for all the shit posting of Biden around the economy, which makes no fucking sense, the Chinese stock market has shed $6 trillion in value in the last three years. The Hang Seng is off 40%, and the Dow and the NASDAQ keep touching new highs. So what do you do? We can't beat them economically. We can't beat them militarily. We got to divide them internally. And that is exactly, in my view, what is going on here. And I think there's more and more evidence coming out that confirms that. As you know, I'm one thinking, if I was the Chinese,

this is what I'd do. But it is certainly complex. And we certainly do it to ourselves too. Let's make clear about that. We don't ever act right when we get manipulated. Or we fall for it every time because we're an emotional people. Anyway, this has been a very very full full full episode but we want to hear from you send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind we do love your feedback by the way we want to thank everybody for all the answers on our

social media about their first concerts I'm wearing this other one another one I went to is a Steve Miller band this is some people call me Maurice remember that I'm wearing a t-shirt today that says that Another one I went to is a Steve Miller band. This is Some People Call Me Maurice. Remember that? I'm wearing a t-shirt today that says that. I love Steely Dan.

This is not Steely Dan. This is Steve Miller band. Oh, Steve Miller band. Some people call me the space cowboy. Some people call me the gangster. Some people call you the gangster of love. Go on. Go on. Really?

No, they don't. And again, the music stuff was hysterical. I've been listening to them all. I hadn't thought of Electric Light orchestra for a long, long time. Oh, my God. Don't bring me down. That's what I work out to. Yeah, I know. Right. Like or Emerson, Lake and Palmer. I haven't thought of these. I was like, oh, yeah, that one. Remember, there was a lot. But they're also young people, too. It was good anyway go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVID okay Scott that's the show um and again also by the way if you don't agree with us you know that's fine we don't we don't mind we like it we like to hear from you so please

disagree with us as as as James was saying it's fine we can we can handle it we can we can handle it um Scott that's the show we'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Can you read us out? Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Nurtat engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Silverio. Nishat Kerouac is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Have a wonderful weekend.