Pivot - Oprah and Apple End Deal, 'Dahmer' Sets Records, Advertisers Flee Twitter, and More

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

Oprah and Apple TV cut the cord on their deal while Netflix's Dahmer series breaks records. Kara and Scott discuss what it all means for the streaming industry. Also, Apple rolls back iPhone production while Amazon rolls out new hardware. Advertisers blast Twitter after ads appear next to child abuse content, and Elon Musk and Parag Argawal’s depositions have been delayed. Plus, Italy’s recent turn to the far right. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. We’d really appreciate your feedback to help us understand who's listening. That’s why we’d like your help planning for our future by filling out a short survey at vox.com/podsurvey. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway. And how is London doing? Is it cooling down there in London? You know, it's sort of like it's really a shit show here. They've cut taxes to try and stimulate the economy. Meanwhile, they're about to go through the biggest rate hike to try and slow down the economy. It's like when I get a Zacapa and Coke and it's like, the Zacapa takes the dog down, makes him feel a little more relaxed. But the Coke, the Coke keeps him awake so he can party with the young people. But it's not a good idea.

You don't go up and down. Like what they're doing here makes no fucking sense. Yeah, Liz Truss could lose her job like in 14 seconds, right? With this little stunt she's pulling, this economic stunt. This is her legacy. No joke. This is literally her legacy. No leader of a G7 nation has fucked up this fast. I know. I think she's trying to pull a Margaret Thatcher. Is she doing a Margaret Thatcher? That's what it seems like. Well, that's the idea. But the markets, and we talked about this last time, but the markets recognize that that didn't work. Yeah. The markets were like, okay, it's 2022 in the United Kingdom. And it's striking to me. Supposedly, her Yoda at dinner or drinks with a guy last night, a really impressive man named Roger Perry, and he said that her Yoda is a 26-year-old kind of libertarian.

Oh, no. I mean, it's just striking how many people find themselves in the right place at the wrong time. Oh, dear. Liz, you know, Margaret right place at the wrong time. Oh, dear. Liz. Liz. You know, Margaret Thatcher was the iron lady. She seems like the aluminum lady. Ooh, that's a good one.

Thank you. Please use it. Do you think of that yourself? No, I did. You should credit the onion or someone snarky for saying that. You go out at parties in London and see how that – let me know how it goes. Hey. Oh, I listened to your podcast, by the way.

Sorry to interrupt. Oh, you did. Go ahead. Yeah. I did listen. Yeah. I really liked it. Thank you. It's sassy. I think, I think. Working with some new formats. Well, no, you know, just an outstanding interviewer,

incredible grace. And also you were, you were okay too. I'm calling you Naima's sidekick from this point forward. I love that you have a sidekick now. I know. Well. Oh my God. She's good. I'm your sidekick. The student becomes the master. Yeah. It's going to be like all about Eve and then I'll be dead in some corners. No, I enjoyed it. But I was more interested in Chris Cuomo. Yeah. That was good. I think he's really, he was good.

He's very likable. I feel he's still in a state of denial about what went down. I think many people felt that. Yeah. It's like, boss, and here's the thing. The most powerful thing, one of the wonderful things about our species is we can not only apologize, but people can forgive. People love to forgive. Yeah, they do.

He is so likable and so good. He didn't really ask for forgiveness. Yeah, they made me do it. They made me do it. This is where he's poorly advised. Yeah. If he had just said something along the lines of, I made a mistake, family can make you take a mistake and turn it into something really stupid. Yeah.

And I'm guilty of that. And I apologize. And it won't happen again. And I apologize. He didn't say that. He kind of twisted it like, no, this was what you don't understand. I think he's being poorly advised because he's so likable. He is a very good broadcaster. And I think an injury around something involving family, I think people want to forgive you for that. Yeah. But what people get angry about, Martha Stewart didn't go to prison for insider trading. She went to prison for refusing to acknowledge the issue.

Yeah. And one of the things, crisis management is all the same thing. It's all the same thing. It's one, acknowledge the issue. Yeah. Two, take responsibility for it. And three, overcorrect. Yeah. It is. the same thing. It's one, acknowledge the issue. Two, take responsibility for it. And three, overcorrect. It is tried and true. I was surprised. And then, of course, he was surprised that I threw Jeffrey Swisher under the bus. He goes, wouldn't you do the same

for your brother? I'm like, absolutely not. Not if you did something like that, my friend. He was thinking I was going to say, as a different Italian family, I'd be like, Jeff would be out the door. I would call him and make sure he's OK personally. But to help him and advise him, are you kidding me? No way. Anyway, it was interesting. He wasn't expecting that. Nobody expects the Cara Inquisition.

But it was a good interview. It's getting a lot of buzz. Today is Hillary Clinton. We're doing some others. You'll see this week some really good ones coming up. Secretary Clinton. Yeah. Secretary Clinton. Yeah, Secretary Clinton. She was sassy as can be.

But anyway, Hurricane Ian hit Florida on Wednesday as a Category 4 storm and weakened to tropical storm by Thursday morning. 2.5 million people are without power as of Thursday morning. Local authorities have said that hundreds are feared to have died in the storm. Puerto Rico is still recovering from Fiona. The Biden administration waived the Jones Act and allowed more fuel imports. He's been very proactive. And DeSantis said he's actually being nice.

What a twit. He's like a rich kid who just like, I don't know, he's being a twit about it. Anyway, they're cooperating with each other and he did it right away. Can you imagine if Trump was running this show, there'd be a Sharpie and different various and sundry games with DeSantis that provide some time. Look, we're going to have more and more of this. We're going to have more and more climate

change. Seven of the 10 biggest super fires in history in California have happened in the last 10 years. Hurricanes are getting more severe. I think it's terrible. I think the governor was smart to issue a state of emergency. Right. And that is kind of one of the few places it seems like the federal and local governments do still cooperate. They do. But Biden passed a climate package that's going to take carbon down 40 percent by 2030. And we're just going to have fewer, hopefully, of these things.

I mean, this is I don't know. These these extreme weather events. There's a reason they're happening more and more often. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see. Florida is going to get hit by more hurricanes. I think we're in the season and then California with wildfires, but the Midwest hasn't been spared. There's all kinds of areas. So, in any case, we hope the people of Florida are doing well and that they'll recover quickly from this and not have another one come anytime soon. Did you know September, this is a phenomena. September is the most beautiful place in the world almost everywhere except Florida.

Yeah. Yeah. September is wonderful. Think about it. I don't care if you're Seattle and Barcelona. September is fantastic, but not in Florida. Yeah. It's my favorite time in San Francisco.

Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, today we'll talk about Apple's struggles with the new iPhone. Also, Oprah and Apple TV call it quits. We'll hear from a listener about TikTok. But first, major advertisers are pulling their ads from Twitter. This was quite a story because it's from Reuters of child sexual material on the platform. Mazda, Forbes, and others have removed their ads from parts of Twitter after their promotions were shown alongside tweets soliciting child sexual material on the platform. Mazda, Forbes, and others have removed their ads from parts of Twitter after their promotions were shown alongside tweets soliciting

child sexual material. The Verge reported on Twitter's challenges in identifying child abuse content in August. This is just more of the same, sloppily managed, really, since the get-go. Ad-supported platforms that are algorithmically driven, which were the big innovation there, was that you could serve ads without human

intervention. And it ends up, that's bad. That, you know, when, if someone tries to advertise something really, really distasteful or wrong on CNN, somebody sees it and stops it. A hundred percent. Yeah. And when you, you know, these platforms were meant to be, you know, no friction, no people, no discretion. And you pay a huge price for that. And whether it's misinformation or whether it's type of thing. And it just, I think this further buttresses what Twitter and Jack Dorsey have failed to do for a decade. This should not be an ad-supported platform.

This should be run sharper than this. You know what I mean? It feels like this is sort of easy things. Well, what this process has basically highlighted is that it hurts a company to not have a CEO for a decade. It does. They didn't have a CEO. And it was even worse to not having a CEO because they would occasionally incorporate him into decision-making and no decision would get made. Yeah. I used to make fun of you for saying this, but I think you're right about right now at this point. So many things have been revealed

about what happens to a company when it has absentee leadership. It just, and no decisions are made. Yeah. What has Twitter done that's been in it, like a blue check? Like, what have they done? In other Twitter news, by the way,

more is going to come out. Depositions from Elon Musk and Twitter CEO Parag Agrawal have been delayed. Agrawal sought to delay his delay later this week. And Elon wants his to take place somewhere other than Delaware. I think somewhere other than Delaware is a very good name for a band. It's just wending its way to this thing. No matter what they do to delay, this is where it's headed essentially to the end. But it will show a lot of stuff off.

He'd like to take this thing to Mars right now. He's going to do anything to delay. Also, did you, I just saw a story right before we came in there saying that he's been caught deleting text messages regarding the case. Oh, dear. Well, I could see him doing that. They'll still find them. Yeah, I agree. In any case, one of the things, I have a feeling they're going to settle you. I think you're right. I just had a feeling as I was on the train. I was like, a feeling they're going to settle you. I think you're right. I just had a feeling as I was on the train. I was like, I think they're going to settle. I was talking about us doing this cross-promotional thing between my new podcast and Prof G and everything else. And we're going to do a lot of coverage of the trial in mid-October, I think October 17th time period.

And for some reason, I just thought, oh, I think they're going to settle before that. I just think we're not going to do our cross-promotional shows. You know? The problem is the delta between what I think Twitter should settle for and what he's probably willing to settle for is just enormous. They've got this guy dead to rights, and it's going to be a lot of money. Yeah. Anyways, the headline in the article is Elon Musk caught deleting messages about the Twitter deal. Elon Musk uses Signal, the encrypted messaging app that can automatically destroy messages. Yeah, with Andreessen. There were some with Andreessen. Right. So maybe he

didn't delete them. Maybe they just automatically deleted and he took it to Signal. And there's been a bunch. It's really an interesting concept. A bunch of, bulge bracket, investment banks are in trouble because their employees took a lot of their messaging to these platforms that were encrypted, which you're not supposed to do. Don't they know you're supposed to use burner phones? I don't understand these people. You love the burner phone. I love a burner. I always have a burner phone.

I have one for TikTok. I have a TikTok burner phone, as you know. Also in the news this week, let's talk about Italy's move to the far right. news this week. Let's talk about Italy's move to the far right. Giorgia Maloney, who I like to call Mussolini, a member of the Brothers of the Italy Party, why do they have these names, will be Italy's first female prime minister. Maloney has displayed extreme points of view, such as saying the following during a speech in June, yes to natural families, no to LGBT lobby, yes to sexual identity, no to gender ideology, yes to culture of life, no to the abyss of death. She also used the word financial speculators, which Mussolini used to love to use to refer to Jewish people.

She, of course, was just using it. It was definitely a dog whistle. U.S. politicians such as Ted Cruz have called Maloney spectacular. Anyway, good for her. What do you think? I think this is a bigger discussion. And that is, there have always been, there was women have always, and we don't like to talk about it because we like to assume that everything any woman does is like benign and noble. Greed.

And what you have here is the weaponization of femininity, the weaponization of women as a gender. And that is Hillary Clinton accidentally comes out and says it's great to see a female leader not having done her homework. Yeah. This woman is done her homework. Yeah. This woman is terrible for women. Yep. She is not only anti-immigrant. She wants to deny women of their reproductive rights. She wants to – fascism is basically you know, her less polished and the intercepted great piece on this, far-right counterparts in the U.S. Congress, such as Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lorraine Boebert, among others.

They weaponize their roles as women. And they basically say that immigrants are importing sexual violence. And no one can – it immediately stops the conversation and scares the shit out of everybody. Yeah. And I don't care if it was the KKK. There's always been – I'm going to get shit for this. White women have always played a key role in the advancement of these terrible – and it's not – we have to evaluate people based on their views. That's correct.

I tend to agree with you here, Mr. Galloway. And just because she's a woman doesn't mean she's not hateful against LGBTQ people. Yeah. And also immigrants and also Jewish people, apparently. And women. She wants to stick women in the home and take away the rights. So who gives a shit that she's got indoor plumbing? She's terrible for women. She's a fascist. Did you say indoor plumbing? She's a fascist. Did you say indoor plumbing? She's a fascist.

So while people immediately knee jerk and say, oh, isn't it wonderful that we have a female leader? No, it's not wonderful. Anyone who destroys the rights of our mothers and our sisters and female immigrants is a threat. This is very disappointing.

I would agree. And it'd be interesting. The only saving grace here is that Italy changes its government every five minutes. The last government ran, you know, she could run right into a wall. Same thing with Liz Truss. Same thing with Sweden. They also elected a far more right-wing group of people. Shocking, I think, for a lot of people there. We'll see.

It's interesting because they're sort of behind the U.S. and Brazil. And it looks like Bolsonaro is on his way out or could be unless he tries to pull a Trump, essentially. She has the support of Silvio Berlusconi. So until she loses that, I suspect she's going to be—they love him, that him, and he's the original Trump-like character. Anyway, speaking of women of the far right, Marjorie Taylor Greene is getting divorced. She's on the market, boys. So there you have it. Her husband filed a petition citing irretrievably broken marriage. You know, here's another person that goes on and on about family, sort of shoves it down people's throat.

And, you know, getting divorced is a sad thing. I've been divorced, and I think you have too. And these people, like, tout family and try to really shove it down your throat. And they have problems just like everybody else. And of course they make excuses for it. And they say the matter is private and personal when they're always telling other people how to live. I find it – they are so judgmental until it comes to themselves. And then they want you to not speak about it.

Now, I'm sorry she's getting divorced, I guess. I don't really care in any way whatsoever. I more think it's sad it was Mackenzie Bezos who filed for divorce from her second husband, who was a science teacher, was helping her with philanthropy. You know, Mackenzie Scott for me is a hero. Yeah. And I, you know, when I heard about it, I was sad because I just think the world of Mackenzie Scott. Yeah. I'm involved in this charity called, and I think I mentioned this earlier in the year, the Jet Foundation that focuses on teen depression. And this is how McKenzie Bezos rolls.

She had done research on the organization without us knowing. That's her M.O. And then we got an email. When I say we, I shouldn't say we. I support I support the organization. I can't take credit for anything they've done. The CEO of the John McPhee of the organization, and this is a wonderful organization, got an email saying, we need your wiring information. We're sending $15 million.

Whoa, that's significant. Oh, you think? What was the budget? Oh, the budget is well over $100 million. Jed Foundation works with the infrastructure of high schools and colleges. That's a big check. It changes everything. It changes everything. All of a sudden, we can implement new programs to educate,

especially at-risk youth from disenfranchised communities through schools. Schools are dying for this information and education and materials. This will save lives. This will save heartaches. I mean, so the idea of an organization leveraging the existing infrastructure of high schools and colleges to help identify and discern between what is kind of what you call normal, abnormal teen behavior and a teen who really might hurt themselves. But back to Mackenzie Scott, you know, I think she has totally inspired people to rethink what it means, what giving means. And leadership.

Yeah, and it's not a transaction. It's not, I need my name on something. I need to pretend I understand education or homelessness because I'm giving you money and you have to listen to me. It's about true giving, nothing in return. Anyways, I don't— I think she—you know, what's interesting, there is a juxtaposition between them because I think through what she's doing, she will have much more impact than these loudmouths, Maloney or Green. I think they will be faded into the background and the impact of her giving will be so much more significant. And it's not because she's liberal for sure, but she's making significant

investments in all kinds of social justice stuff, in helping people all across the board. It's really, it'll benefit everybody in this world. Her quietness in contrast to their loud mouthery is really quite astonishing as far as I'm concerned. OK, let's get to our first big story. Apple scaled back plans for iPhone production. This was interesting. This week by about six million units, shares of Apple and its suppliers dropped on the news. One analyst called weak demand in Europe and China, but other issues could be at play.

What do you think? I'm actually going on Sunday to get my son. Alex hasn't upgraded in a while, and we have that yearly upgrade, but he hasn't even done it in a couple of years. So we are getting one for him. But why do you think this is happening? The NASDAQ is down, obviously. Apple shares are down. There's still a continuing cratering of the tech economy. Soft Bank just announced layoffs of its tech-heavy Vision Fund, but that's largely because they made shitty investments all over the map when everything was going well. But what do you think is happening here? I think it's just a natural

cyclical downturn. Basically, Apple is to a certain extent a proxy on the wealthiest billion people in the world. And the wealthiest billion people in the world have done better than any cohort, have done better than any other billion people on the planet. And so, and Apple's been probably the biggest beneficiary of that. It just so elegantly caters to a group of people who want to say we're better storytellers. I'll pay $1,200 for $550 of chipsets and sensors. It makes them more attractive. It's a better product. But with all the interest rate hikes, with the market taking a little bit of a check back, I just think it's sort of logical or kind of understandable that their sales would have a little bit of a slowdown. But I just don't see—

They're also very smart at pulling back quickly, one of the things. They're very dynamic. They've got just such an incredible supply chain. Yeah. You know, I think what's more interesting is they've decided to increase production out of India. They're trying to diversify away from China. Absolutely. On a supply side. But what is this? decided to increase production out of India. They're trying to diversify away from China. Absolutely. They have to.

On a supply side. But what is this? If the stock goes down, quite frankly, it's probably a buying opportunity. I mean, the company, you know, one iPhone 14 slowdown does not make a structural decline in this company. And again, sample size of one. London, or, you know, London, I guess, is sort of its own island in the UK. But the UK is staring down a pretty obvious recession and some economic difficulty. You could barely get in the Apple store. So, I don't know. I just think. You know, just people don't realize, you said it's just for the higher end, but iPhones are the most popular handset in America right now. Past 50%, it was a big deal over

Android. We talked about that recently. Amazing. You know, some people think it's because it's not upgradable enough. I don't think so. I do think people don't upgrade with this, like I do. I like get the newest one, period. But like, I know my kids were like, mine is fine. Amanda has one, I don't know, seven iPhones ago. And she's like, it's fine. And I think I'm finally convinced her to get a new one. But I think a lot of people are perfectly fine. They work really well, these iPhones, and can last over several periods. On this Sunday, I'm bringing in a lot of Apple products,

especially computers that I've saved over the years to have them recycled. I'm meeting someone to recycle all my things. They have a really robust recycling program. And then I'm going to get a tiny bit of money for that, I'm sure. And then that's, we're going to buy something, of course, with the money. No, I love virtual signaling parties like that. Thank you. Interesting. Russia's trying to get the iPhone to come in, and Apple's pulled out of Russia in March. I don't think it's an enormous market for them. What's really interesting, I was struck by Amazon rolling out a bunch of new hardware. It unveiled nearly a dozen new products this week, including TVs, a Kindle, another Kindle, a smart speaker, an interconnected camera for Ring. And they also premiered its new reality

show, Ring Nation, which is, it's mostly from smartphones and GoPros, but the idea of like cameras that I have, I do have a Ring at home. I think in San Francisco, I put one in for the tenants. And I have to say, they're riveting to watch the stuff that's on there that people post and things like that. And now it's a TV show. But Amazon's really moving forward with hardware, which I thought was interesting. Yeah. And they're investing just as – I mean, it's a tale of two cities. With Facebook, they're investing on the Oculus, which I think is the biggest thought ever. I read somewhere that Facebook is probably,

or Meta is going to probably invest $60 or $70 billion in their metaverse activities over the next several years. Yeah, he loves this thing. Amazon got behind what I think is kind of arguably the premier technology the next 10 years. I don't think it's AI. I think it's voice. Yeah. And when you think about making people's lives easier. The echo. Well, when you move into a new house, what you realize between trying to figure out the lights and how to operate a TV, which is now like trying to operate Apollo 13 after you've aborted your moon landing. And just and then every once in a while. And to be fair, Comcast, I think, has done a great job with this technology to be able to say, find Ted Lasso. And then occasionally the TV just brings it up.

You're like, Jesus, this is powerful. Yeah. And my kids are so comfortable with voice now. When they're doing their homework and ask a question, they'll just look up. I'll just look up and say, you know, when's Arsenal-Liverpool playing this weekend? And he just, without even lifting his head, he goes, Alexa, when is Arsenal-Liverpool playing? They're getting trained on voice technology. Yeah, but it's more of an ecosystem, too, product, because, you know, I was thinking I have a Nest, and I like it, but I wish everything all worked together in a lot of ways.

And that's what Amazon's trying to do with the Ring, the Roomba, if that thing goes through. I probably would buy an Amazon thing. I just got a message for them for pharmacy. You know, they are really pushing that very hard. And I thought about it. I was like, well, it is, they do deliver a lot of things here. So getting in an ecosystem, I'm definitely in an Apple ecosystem. Not so much in a Google one, a little bit in a Comcast one.

I have a ring and something very strange happened to me the other night. Yeah. It went off and I immediately went to my ring app to see what was out there. And I saw like this kind of weird shadow, but nothing. And I'm like, oh, fuck. Moves to London, buys a house that's haunted. Yeah, it was me. I literally couldn't sleep.

I'm like, I kept playing it over and over. And you could see this little like shadow ring my doorbell and then go to the attic where it will haunt me for the rest of eternity. You do have ghosts. It's like a Jack the Ripper ghost or something like that. Oh, thank you. That's comforting. Thank you. It's never like a ghost that wants to perform oral sex on you. It's always a ghost that wants to like... Well, he only killed women and prostitutes. So I think you're well made on that. That's good to know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, by the way, speaking of killing people, the new Jeffrey Dahmer thing. Yeah. We're going to talk about that in a second. Can you get over that?

You know what they would call people who would try and run from him? What? Fast food. Oh, my God. All right. We're going to get to it in a minute. You know, he had Ted Bundy over and they would have Ben and Jerry's. I got it. I got it.

OK. We'll save it. That's good. We'll save it. Save it. When we come back, we'll talk about a big loss for Apple TV and take a listener and also about this Jeffrey Dahmer thing on Netflix and take a listener mail question about TikTok. Fox Creative.

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The two parties abruptly ended an overall deal this week. Back in 2018, Oprah signed on to produce original content for Apple. It was hard because she could produce it for everybody else. She made stuff for CBS, like her high-profile interview with Harry and Meghan. She had a cable network and this deal with Discovery. She even appeared with David Zaslav, if you recall, when he first came in. They're going to work project to project. It's just they let her do whatever they want. They just wanted the name for a press, these press release names, you know, these expensive – and handed her a whole bunch of money. But other streamers are also pulling back.

Netflix canceled on Meghan Markle's animated series and then cut back there. So what do you think about these streaming mega deals? They don't really need – they've done better with stuff like Ted Lasso and Severance. So what do you think? They usually don't work. And I was trying to, I was thinking about, I got to come up with a better term, but the power of the pause. And that is the queen dies, and it gives all of these nations that are part of the empire, or whatever you call it, part of the monarchy, an opportunity to pause and reevaluate the relationship. Whenever you

raise prices, or you go through a pandemic or an economic shock, it gives everyone an opportunity to pause and reevaluate the relationship. And whenever these big iconic stars switch platforms, it gives you an opportunity to pause and decide if you really want to watch this stuff. And what usually happens is that when you have the magic and mystery and the alchemy come together of a talent and a platform and a moment. It's not a given that when you take Megyn Kelly off of Fox, she's going to work somewhere else. Yeah. It's not a given when you take Oprah off of her show and lose that following. What she does next is going to work. Well, other things worked elsewhere for her. She could go anywhere she wanted and they still gave her a deal, which was incredible.

Well, go ahead. Yeah, but we talked a little bit about this. I was thinking about your conference, right? You had the fastest tortoise. Yeah. I think the sort of long-form, one-on-one interview that Oprah does. Yeah. I wonder if the sun has passed midday on it just because people don't have the attention

span or the people that advertisers want to reach. I don't agree. He said number seven on top overall shows. That's a fair point. But you're in people's ears. Although we've added stuff to it. We've changed it. There's discussion with Naima.

There's all kinds of stuff in there. There's the interview at the heart of it. But we've moved. We've definitely. It's no longer just a long interview for sure. But she's making other things. She's not just done these interviews. She does all kinds of content.

Does she do it? Yeah. But look. OK. Another one. The Obamas. I get the feeling. Here's what it is. It's an economic decision. It's more the celebrity ones, but go ahead. That's right. Meghan and Harry, the Obamas, Oprah. My guess is what they're doing,

except for Meghan and Harry, is really good work and it's not worth what they had to pay them. And so it's just a business decision. I think if they were paying, I can't even imagine how much money they had to give to Oprah for her to sit around and think of interesting ideas. And I'm sure the work is good. And some analysts said, this is costing way too much. And what this is part of, what this really signals in the macro environment is that every platform has got their pencils out for the first time in a while. They're going, you know, we just can't continue to spend the way we've been spending. Yeah. But it's good for the beginning to get interest in it. It showed a little bit of like

a stamp of Oprah stamp of approval, all these things to do these splashy press release deals. And, you know, and then she was able, the fact that she was able to do whatever she wants elsewhere, it's sort of like someone paying you or I a million dollars and then we could also work for anyone we want. Therefore, we put things where we felt like they belonged. And by the way, everything Apple Plus has been doing that's been really successful is not that well known. I mean they're very strong producers, but it's not – they didn't have to pay them as much as they paid Oprah, I'm sure. But anyway, let's get back to Netflix and this thing, speaking of celebrities, Ryan Murphy, who has had this deal with Netflix, he's done a bunch of stuff

that has sort of been sort of sideways, essentially. Some of them good shows, some of them not, but not killer shows, speaking of killers. It's breaking new records with the series on serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer called Dahmer, colon, Monster, colon, The Jeffrey Dahmer Story. It's a very strange name.

By hours watched, the show broke the record for new series in the first week on Netflix. Lots of controversy, family members of Dahmer's victims, and they never contacted about the show. One called it cruel and re-traumatizing. At this time of the launch, the show was tagged LGBTQ. Netflix removed the tag after an outcry. He was gay, Jeffrey Dahmer. Anyway, it's doing really well here. I am not going to watch it.

I do not watch serial killer shows. But it's an interesting thing that they finally got a big show out of him. I don't know if they can bank on this happening all the time, but I'm curious what you think of this kind of thing. It's not a surprise that it's done so well.

We have just a fascination with crime and violence and these extremely abnormal people. Yeah, that's who's in my way to number one, by the way. I'm going to have to kill and violence and, you know, these extremely abnormal people. Yeah. That's who's in my way to number one, by the way. I'm going to have to kill you just so you know and then solve the issue myself so I can get to the number one spot on Apple Podcasts. But go ahead. Well, supposedly you used to make pizza.

It was called Domino's. I can do this all night. Okay. But I'm going to have to kill you. Just be aware. I can do this all night. Okay. But I'm going to have to kill you.

Just be aware. In a bunch of news releases, I saw saying Jeffrey Dahmer, who was gay, and I'm like, to even attach a sexual orientation to him doesn't make any sense to me. He was a cannibal. He was a serial murderer. I mean, it's like saying, oh, he was a libertarian. I mean, it's just like, who cares? That has nothing to do with anything.

He was a deranged person. It's an interesting story. Yeah. It's also interesting. I thought one of the most interesting stories, a few years ago, they went and interviewed and spent time with his parents. Oh, wow. And his parents couldn't have been nicer. I know. Couldn't have been more well-adjusted.

Yeah. And it was like a giant documentary in talking about nature versus nurture. Yeah, sociopath from the get-go, I suspect. But also, I haven't seen the series, but it also weaves in a lot about our society's reluctance to get involved or pay attention, our police force, when it's in communities of color. Yeah, yeah, 100%. That's who most of his victims were. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. That's who most of his victims were.

Yeah. It's one thing these people usually have in common, these serial murderers, is they're very good, and this is true of pedophiles, they're outstanding at figuring out victims that will not cause a disturbance. That's correct. People that the authorities or society don't show the same level of attention to. Yeah. And they're very good at finding those people who will. Even when they're saying, oh, there's a character in this show that's warning the police about what's going on

and they're going to do nothing about it. In fact, they help one of his victims back into the apartment after the guy escaped. That was a, oh, I remember that little detail of one of the killings. But he kept saying, it's my boyfriend and he's drunk. And the neighbors were like, no, it's something bad that's going on here.

And the police actually helped him get the victim into the apartment where he then killed him. Anyway, are you going to watch it? I'm not going to watch it. As I get older, I can't. That's one genre

I just can't deal with. But horror films or stuff like that, it just, I don't know. I have a tough time. You know, I was the shadow on your ring. You know, I was the shadow on your ring. You know, it's either you or Marjorie Taylor Greene's ex.

It was one or the other. That's not fun. No, but I have a whole thing. Me and Naima, who is the brains of the operation, are plotting to do a crime thing to weave it into this new show, and you're the victim. Anyway, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman.

You've got mail. This question comes from Elizabeth. It came via email. I'll read it. Hi, Cara and Scott. Once again, Cara is first in that thing. Absolutely love your podcast. What do you understand to be the potential downsides of a U.S. law or administrative

action that bans TikTok? What will we say if a foreign government took a similar action against a U.S. company? How might a ban on TikTok set a precedent for further social media bans? To be clear, I thought your points on the dangers of TikTok were well-founded and beautifully made, as they always are. I understand you can't discuss everything. I'm just hoping for a fuller conversation next time you address the issue. This is good because I'm about to interview the U.S. CEO of TikTok. But go ahead.

Tell me, Scott. Give us some fuller thoughts on this so I can then borrow them from my interview. Well, first off, let's look at our question. What would we say if a foreign government took similar action against a U.S. company? Well, we've said it over and over because China's done it consistently. Yeah, they do. And well, let's acknowledge the point that banning media, banning a company, a media company right away should raise red flags. Because one of the pillars of a modern economy or a democratic society is that pretty much anybody can say pretty much

anything about pretty much anyone else. That is a hallmark of a free society. So when you start using the words ban and media in the same sentence, you should naturally have a gag reflex similar to what the person who put the question in. The difference here though is that one, on a trade level, I do believe that Trump got this right. I think there's an asymmetry there. And then when they ban anything that reeks of any sort of Western media or technology- Everything. I mean, they let it in long, it's even worse than that. They let it in long enough to steal its IP,

prop up a local entrepreneur, finance it, and then kick the American company out so they can capture the domestic value. Because they're like, we have a large enough market to create hundreds of billions of dollars behind a search engine or social. So we'll let you in just long enough to steal your IP and then kick you out. So just on a trade level, tit for tat, we have license, I believe, to kick them out. I think what you'd like to see, and then on a societal level, I'm just totally, I don't know what the term is, freaked out, seeing the incredibly addictive nature of this platform and the fact that young people are now spending more time on this platform with the exception of YouTube and spend more time on this platform than all streaming media. It used to be YouTube. It used to be obsessive watching was YouTube, and now it's this, and it's even better.

Do you know who's obsessively watching TikTok right now? Jim Bankoff, he called me. He said he can't stop. Anyway. Bankoff likes TikTok? He just started me. He said he can't stop. Anyway. Bankoff likes TikTok? He just started doing it. Now he can't stop. I'd be curious what he's watching. I get the sense he's a saucy little mix. He's too nice and buttoned up on the outside. I bet there's some crazy shit in his feed.

Let's investigate. Let's do a podcast about that. Anyway, so go ahead. Further thing. Okay, so it's addictive. So are the others. So I don't think they're more addictive. This is different, though. It's not social. It's a streaming media platform that's one thing, no decisions. Good Quibi. More than 50% of our youth is on it, more than every streaming media combined. And I just believe the opportunity for them. And if you read their privacy agreement, you're agreeing that TikTok can track your keystrokes on any other app. And the idea that I just think it would just be so incredibly easy for them to put their thumb on the scale of anti-American content. And just as meta as the ultimate espionage tool, I think TikTok is now the ultimate propaganda tool.

And I do not want to see America raise a generation of future military, civic, social, and business leaders that feel worse about America. Right, right. And what I've said is two things. One, if I was in the CCP, this is exactly what I would be doing. Exactly what I would be doing. Putting money into this. And two, I believe the people at TikTok deserve huge economic upside for what they have built. huge economic upside for what they have built. And what I'd like to see is some sort of spin to U.S. interests and also regulation by U.S. regulators and ensure all the data.

It's all about incentives and ensuring there is a true Chinese wall here. But in my view, it is an existential threat for it to exist as it stands. And then the final point I'll make is I've gotten a lot of pushback from some journalists that you're distracting from the issues, the privacy issues of meta. And I'm like, well, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. This isn't a zero-sum game. This doesn't let meta off the hook for its weaponization of elections or teen depression or delay in obfuscation. But this is a national security risk. All right. Let me ask you a question then. Let me just change it around. What if they were successfully able to put up a wall?

Should it be limited because it happens to be so addictive? But just on that thing, if it was – say it was not used for propaganda. Say it was not – they were not able to manipulate it if they wanted to. What would you – what say you then, Scott Galloway? Then whatever you do around the addictive nature, you'd have to apply to all platforms. Yeah. Because you can't be xenophobic or jingoist and start saying, well, Chinese platforms are a bigger threat because they're Chinese. Well, no, if you got rid of the propaganda and the espionage risk, then you would just have to group it into whatever legislation or regulation you were going to enforce against all platforms.

And if you remove the propaganda and espionage part, is it a better product than others? Is it doing well? Because one of the things that when I do the interview, I want to talk about why it's such a good product. Why is it? It is a very good product. When you use it, people get dragged into it. It's not just addiction. It's entertaining. It's like you and I and Twitter.

Like we like scrolling Twitter. But I'll tell you, I don't get to – I don't use TikTok because I know I would like it so much. What do you do about the fact that the product is so infectiously fun to use? But here's TikTok's genius. Okay. Is that everyone thought about social media. This is not social. Entertainment.

And that is – the reason why TV was the most revolutionary medium to that point is it required nothing of you. It was passive. You sat on your couch and other than trying to find or dig out your remote in between cushions, it asked nothing of you. I always thought interactive television was an oxymoron. When I watch TV, I don't even want to decide. And that's what TikTok does. It says no decisions, totally passive. You're not

going to get bullied by the 13-year-old girl who thinks you're a jerk. You're not going to feel bad that you don't have great abs. You're not going to feel bad that you're not rich enough to be sitting by the pool at the Almond in Utah. We're just going to calibrate based on a few finger swipes what content you absolutely love. And you can just lie on your side and go into a rabbit hole in an opium-like dream state. Yeah. It is an out- Or there's makeup or air fryer or whatever the heck you want.

Or chiropractors adjusting people or Great Danes. I'm getting served amazing content about Great Danes. Or these poor animals that decide to go get a little sip of water in an African watering hole and have a very unpleasant experience at the hands of a 10-town crocodile. I cannot stop watching that shit. Anyways, I have dope of firing just talking about TikTok. Yeah. Those people, and I'm a capitalist. I think Vanessa and her colleagues, I think they deserve to be really, really rich.

Yeah, so what happens? I think what they built is amazing. What do we do here? But here's why they're going to figure it out. There is so much money on the line. The difference between this company being worth $50 billion and $500 billion is their ability to create this Chinese oil. I don't know how they do that. You summarized it perfectly. They have to separate the product from the ownership. As long as it's owned by Chinese interests, as long as there are engineers

in China, it's too much of a risk. I think there's so much money on the line here. I think they're going to figure it out. But if you were just to say we want to ban it because it's addictive, well, okay. Now we've got to talk about every platform. That's just not true. So it would work for you if it was separated, the product was separated from the ownership. It's all about ownership. All right. Okay, Elizabeth.

Anything else? Oh, keep going. Okay. And then we have to have identity for all of it. I don't see any reason why anyone under the age of 15 needs to be on any of these things, quite frankly. We need to carve out Section 230 such that if it shows they're weaponizing our elections or causing teen depression or spreading misinformation about vaccines, they're liable the same way

as any other media company. Right. I mean, there's a bunch of things we need to do across all of them. But TikTok is a special, its own unique threat because of its ownership. Yeah. Little Chinese. What do you think? Where do I have it from?

I would agree with you. I'm thinking a lot about it because I want to, when I'm interviewing you, you obviously have to talk about the China thing, but it's a great product. So what do you do with this great product that also has such potential for national security risk, propaganda, et cetera? You can't even get to the other things that plague other social media companies. But I think you're dead on right that it's, I've always thought of it, and I think I wrote this, when I wrote a column saying,

I'm using a burner phone to use it because I don't trust the Chinese government. I don't particularly trust ours, but I really don't trust them. And I love it too. So what do you do? But I'm still using a burner phone, which means it's sort of like,

it was such an interesting dichotomy of my love of the product from the not so much love of the ownership. And so I think it's social entertainment. You're 100 percent right. It's social. It's social. There is a social element to it, but it's entertainment and it's creativity.

I think there's a lot of creativity on that platform. And inside that can be mixed propaganda. That's the whole point of propaganda is to hide among the flowers, you know, and really get you going on whatever. And in your interest. In your interest. Last thing, and then we'll go. Well, no. My last thing is I have a burner phone.

I only really use it for one thing, to communicate in FaceTime with Marjorie Taylor Greene's ex. He rubs his feet, and I – is that weird? See, you told me you didn't want to talk about this and then you cannot get away from it. Anyway, if you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Scott, we're going to have a quick break and we'll be back for your fantastic and stellar prediction. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. I already did by saying I think they're going to settle soon. Twitter. Okay, so get this. This is from arguably my favorite economist, although I have a ton of favorite economists, but Lizanne Saunders, the chief economist at Schwab.

I think she's a great follow on Twitter. And she put out this amazing stat for basically in early 2021, if you could afford a house, a monthly house payment of $2,500 or a mortgage payment of $2,500, and you could come up with 20% down, that meant you could afford a house that costs $759,000. So if you were a couple going shopping, we can spend about $2,500 a month. We've got $100,000, $150,000 to put down. We can afford a $760,000 house. Now, with interest rates over 7%, that same couple, their purchasing power, they can buy a house for $476,000. So the purchasing power for a lot of middle class people has gone down $300,000.

So the prediction is really easy. The housing market is about to get the shit kicked out of it. out of it. And there's some belief that, okay, we haven't produced enough houses. And that increase in interest rates creates handcuffs for people who can't actually sell their house, decreasing supply. There's some offsetting factors. I just don't think there's any getting around it. I think the US housing market, you're going to see more and more articles about prices coming down because people still need to move. They still need to, they get divorced, they die, they get sick, whatever it is, they upgrade, they get sick, whatever it is, they upgrade, they downgrade. And the affordability around houses for the same house, you know,

the same couple, same purchasing power, same income can now afford much, much less. Anyways, my prediction is we're about to see a lot more articles about cracks and declines in the U.S. housing market. Okay. All right. Even despite the lack of inventory. Yeah, probably. Yeah, I would agree. Anyway, things are sitting on the market. I've noticed,. All right. Even despite the lack of inventory. Yeah, probably. Yeah, I would agree. Anyway, things are sitting on the market, I've noticed. I'm like one of those, speaking of things that I spend a lot of time looking at, Zillow, no good reason. And a lot of stuff is really staying on the market longer.

You can just see it. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Obviously, get ready for our crossover episodes around the Twitter trial. But until then, we have lots more to talk about. Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Injertot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Saverio. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to

Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. I'll see you later on, you ghosting bitch on my ring phone. Ghosting bitch.