Pivot - PGA Tour's Mysterious Merger, Instagram's Pedophile Problem

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

The SEC is coming for crypto’s biggest players, Fox News says Tucker Carlson broke his contract with a new Twitter show, and Chris Licht is out at CNN. Then, Instagram’s algorithms are promoting accounts sharing child sexual abuse material, and the PGA Tour announced a merger with Saudi-backed LIV Golf. Plus, a listener question on Reddit charging for access to its API. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway. Tell me about your award. Oh, my award. Well, first, the haze. Let's talk about the haze. You're so lucky to be in London. You know, you shame me. I want to talk about your award. And you're immediately like, no, Scott, there's a journalist in the house. We're going to order this correctly. All right. My award was great. Thank you for asking. It was with Choosing Creativity Award. It's a wonderful organization run by the Krems. And George Hahn and Stephanie Rule gave me the award.

I was hoping you would be there, but you're in London. And it was great. It was really nice. It was lovely. I was in New York for four seconds, and I stayed at your place, which was lovely. But it was great. It was really nice. It was lovely. I was in New York for four seconds, and I stayed at your place, which was lovely. But it was great. It was nice to be out in New York. It was nice to be at an event, for a good event. One of the other winners was this amazing light artist. So it's people who choose creativity, like myself. I choose creativity. Choose creativity? Yeah, yeah. It's a choice?

It's a program. No, it's a program for kids, sort of a 10-point program to get kids to be, that they bring to schools to focus on creativity. It's great. You know, a lot of kids just do rote stuff and don't think about, you know, in this time of AI especially, it's important to think about what differentiates us as humans compared to computers. And your mom was there? She was there for the whole thing. The whole package. It was lovely. And George brought one of my favorite country music artists, Shelley Wright, and Lara came. Lara's our producer. Yes, Lara's our producer. And let me just say, my mother's a little hurt. She says you hurt her feelings sometimes.

I hurt her feelings? How did I do that? On the show. I hate to think that. I don't know. Every now and then. For saying she's not fun at parties. Well, she's the most fashionable person at the party.

It's true. It's true. She needs you to understand she's fun at parties. I hate to think I bring anything but joy to Lucky's life. Well, anyway, she just wants you to know that. She's a lot of fun. She's fun, that she's a good time? She's a good time. You know, you usually get awards. These types of awards are usually given to people for one or two reasons. One, because of their accomplishments and achievements, or two,

because they're really on the back nine. That's right. I'm on the back nine. I keep saying that. I keep getting awards. Get them to accept the award before the stars drool. I mean, so which was this? Which was this? This was the beginning. This is the beginning of awards for Kara.

Yeah, you know, there'll be one, there'll be a roast and you hopefully will go to that one. They'll be, they just want to raise money. Well, I'll only go

if Party Chick Lucky shows up. All right. Can you imagine you two on the town? That would be very funny. Speaking of parties, it's Alex's prom tonight. I'm very excited. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. Is he taking, I don't want to reveal too much. Is he taking his? Yes, his girlfriend from Texas. Yes, indeed, Heidi. And he went to her prom where she wore a pink thing. And so his cummerbund and tie were pink, I think. That's nice.

Now they're yellow. They're going yellow, yellow rows of tuxes. Yeah, and Louie's driving them as the driver. Oh, that's great. My ex-wife bought gloves and a hat for him, so he's doing a lot of things. That's hilarious. I know. It's going to be good.

That's nice. Take a bunch of pictures. That'll be fun. I shall. It's also Pride Day at the White House. They're going to invite all the gays to the White House today. So it's a lot going on here in Washington, along with the haze, as I will bring in. You are not in New York or Washington or the East Coast.

It's not worse than what happens in California all the time, every year. But I think a lot of people are super freaked out because they've never experienced it. And it's quite unhealthy, what's happening. But people are, they don't, they've never seen anything like it. It looks like you're in a, you've posted a number of funny pictures from movies, obviously. But from, you know, futuristic movies, that's what it looks like. It looks exactly like that. So. Yeah, I always find that coming from California, California is done scariously because we have to live through, like, super fires and earthquakes. Yeah. I remember when I worked at the Morgan Stanley, the L.A. office of Morgan Stanley, and we had earthquakes.

You could tell who was from New York. The New Yorkers would, like, freak out, start pounding Xanax, and head home. Right. And the Californians were like, oh, it's an earthquake. And, I mean, you barely even stopped working. Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like that too. You know, I don't want to not take it seriously, but there was like so much, and I think you should wear masks too, by the way. But I was like, oh, is this bad? Like, because it's not as bad, you know, it doesn't smell smoky, at least in Washington. It has a vague sense of smoke.

I mean, it obviously looks hazy, and there's the orangeness of it. But it's, yeah, it's true. Californians are all schooling. They're like, really? Get used to it. I think it's actually going to go on for, I think there's going to be a lot of wildfires up in Canada. But it's amazing how, it reminds you of the interconnectedness of our world. It feels very Blade Runner, the pictures I've seen.

It does. It does, New York particularly. And it's freaky. It is freaky for people. And so, maybe they'll think about it. Here's a visual representation of what's going on. I always tell people, don't go outside. And also, just in general, when there's ever any problem anywhere, a decent go-to, blame Canada. Blame Canada. Blame Canada and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Andrew Ross Sorkin. It's his fault.

This entire thing is his fault. There's a lot to talk about. There's so much news. I mean, like literally, Trump's possible indictment is not even on the top of the list. But nonetheless, that's coming too. And Chris Christie, by the way, is highly entertaining, having entered the presidential race. There's all kinds of things to talk about. Anyway, today, we'll talk about disturbing news from Instagram, how bad actors may be using the networks to exploit children, a truly heartbreaking story.

And of course, not a surprise how sloppy of meta is being about it. Also, a controversial merger in the world of golf. I am going to look to you to explain this to me, but people are pissed. And we'll make some predictions. And speaking of that, one we got 100% right, as I predicted the night before, Chris Licht is out at CNN. I tweeted, like, tomorrow is happening. Essentially, it's happening right away. And Discovery CEO David Zasloff announced the exit to the company in a memo saying Lick, quote, poured his heart and soul into the job. Zasloff took the blame for Lick's short tenure, saying, ultimately, it's on me.

I take responsibility because it's completely on him. Internal team of program executives, another person I said would probably get this job, Amy and Tellus, for example, will serve as acting leadership during the search for the new CEO. Shares of the company jumped 8% at the news. I'll give you a shot at a prediction for you. By the way, you predicted this too. Let's play that first, then we'll talk about who the new CEO might be. Well, you realize Chris Licht having a conversation with me

probably means he's going to be fired in the next 90 days. I'm literally typhoid Mary when it comes to anyone in television. There you go. Anytime someone's going to be fired in the next 90 days. I'm literally typhoid Mary when it comes to anyone on television. There you go. Anytime someone's talking to Scott, they're going to lose their job or something bad's going to happen. So who do you think the new CEO is going to be? Who would you pick? I don't know. I just, I've been thinking about- Small list. Yeah. And getting smaller. I don't think Jeff's going to come back for it. No, I was teasing on that poll.

I mean, there's a few things here. And Amy Antelis is well regarded, but I think they see her as an interim CEO. It's really, there's a few things that struck me as interesting here. And what people always tend to talk about or tend to focus on the top guy or gal. And something that they don't recognize is the importance and the impact on the ground of when your bench leaves. So, soon after Zucker left and they decided, you know, new strategy. I think John Malone is quite frankly the puppet master here. And they said, we're going to pivot to the center.

And so, for example, I worked closely with Rebecca Cutler and Andrew Morse. Who were at NBC and Atlantic Constitution now. They've gone. But they were both senior level executives. Totally. Very competent. Highly competent. And very strong. I remember when I was taping my show for CNN Plus, you know, Rebecca just kind of swept into the room and said, stop, and said, Scott, you're not a comedian, you're a professor, I want you to get back to TV. But she has those sort of creative instincts and her ability to kind of cut a swath between talent, ability to manage them, and then create programming that worked.

Yeah, she's working on the Jen Psaki show, which has been a hit. And then Andrew really understood digital, the intersection of digital and media. And I remember being at the event when they announced CNM Plus, and he comes across as a leader. When you clear a house like this, the lesson here is, in my opinion, a couple things. One, the first is, and I've always thought this and said this on boards, when you bring in a new CEO, the new CEO, their first test is if they want a clean house or they want to sit the top lieutenants down and give them something and make them feel loved and keep them on campus. Because it's not easy to find four-star generals. We talk about the five-star general. We talk about the stream allied commander. But your four-star generals are really, really important.

And a lot of Scott Matthews, my producer, left. So many people left that were really good. That takes a toll. The other big lesson here is that I think I got this wrong. I think I've been hoping all along that there is a market for a more moderate network. And you know what? I think I'm wrong. I think people watch

these shows not to be informed, but to feel good and be entertained. Although I'm going to push back on that. I think he just was all about Chris in a lot of ways, a lot of talking about himself, a lot of his theories. He should have shut up a lot more. I think he talked to me- But that's not what got him fired. No, no, no, no. But I think he just had the wrong instincts. I don't think it was trying to be centrist. I think it was declaring it as a rule without thinking. I think Christiane Amanpour, again, had the right thing. It's like,

it's not centrist to be wrong. Like, it's not, you know what I mean, just to give everybody air if someone's wrong. Like, I think he was like conflating political stuff with actual news. And they broke a ton of news this week. At least six stories are really good reporters by CNN broke them. I've read this week around Trump, Caitlin Collins broke several. When they're good reporters, if they're right, that's all that, they just have to be accurate, I think. And I think that's, I get what you mean about being centrist, but I think his idea of centrist was not journalism. It was just, and he said, and he said, which is not journalism. And it's wherever the cards lay, that's where it is.

And let me just say, the three people they have there, I have huge regard for Amy and Tellis. There's a woman named Virginia Mosley who does, you know, a lot of their political stuff in national news, and a guy named Eric Sherling who does other stuff. So it's a troika. Honestly, I think you should just give it to Amy. Amy is quite loved there. She's got the calmness they need. She's created amazing journalism. She did the Navalny documentary. She is even responsible for Stanley Tucci. She's very smart. You know, the Stanley Tucci show, which is terrific about Italy. Just a lot of talent, a heavy amount of talent.

She's the kind of person, it's like she can make just good stuff. Like, that's what they need to do. Even if it's a declining asset, even if the audience is leaving, I think really good content tends to do okay. Even if it's a slightly smaller business. They have great reporters. They do. And they have to stop talking about CNN. Like, that's what they, and that's what he did.

He talked a lot without knowing a lot initially and had a lot of pronouncements and made a lot of stupid errors. I mean, so many, so, so many, including. But the market, the market was up 8% on the news. And I thought, why would the market, why would the market perceive this? I think that was the biggest stocking that Warner Brothers Discovery has had, or Discovery Warner Brothers, or HBO Chili Bag of Donuts, whatever the fuck they're calling themselves now. But it was up 8%. And I think what the market was saying is polarization pays. And they see this as that they'll probably go back to their roots of a very partisan, anti-Trump, hard left network.

Right or wrong, whether that's what they're doing. They were never that. I mean, MSNBC, you certainly can argue, is much more. And look what's happening. MSNBC's kicking the shit out of them. Yeah, but they're still declining. Well, they're all declining. Yes, they're all declining.

But CNN's decline has kind of been historic here. Yeah, they were kicking their audience in the teeth. Well, okay, I'll push it back to you. That is my thesis for why the stock – Chris Lick doesn't move the stock 8%. Levin doesn't move the stock 8%. What I think moves the stock 8% is the market goes, you know what? There's money in polarization or there's money in being more whatever you want to call it. Or it is what it is and you don't kick your audience in the teeth, right?

It is what it is. The. Or it is what it is, and you don't kick your audience in the teeth, right? It is what it is. The New York Times is what it is, you know, whatever you happen to describe it. You certainly, depending on where you're sitting, you have an opinion about the New York Times and you know what you're getting as a product. Well, going back to its roots, whatever you want to call it.

Well, I think news, I think they're really good at breaking news. I think they can be news without having to declare constantly they're centrist. That was just so, it was very much David Zasloff. Let me say, I think Chris was a proxy for him. I've had conversations with him that I find vexing around his theories of journalism,

which I'm sorry to say, I think he's a very smart programmer. But honestly, it's like talking to my uncle about journalism. I just, I'm like, what? I said what a lot during our conversation. And so, he needs to, like, let the professionals take over and see if they can make good programming. That's really what, he needs to get the fuck out of the way, is what he, I don't want David Zasloff to pronounce on journalism. I really don't. I have not. I don't think he is, though. I think he does. He does. He does. At CNN? Yes. Yes. It's very clear. The person in the room here is John Malone.

Maybe. Maybe. But I think David, you know, worships at the altar of John Malone. I don't think it's already in his DNA to start with. Anyway, there's some names. Noah Oppenheim was brought up. You know, I bet Phil Griffin got a call. These are all NBC people.

There's a bunch. Probably some people at. Linda Iaccarino. Linda Iaccarino. You know at- Linda Iaccarino. You know what? Linda Iaccarino, this is the job for her. She would kick the fucking ass out of this place with business. It's being run by David Levy. Yeah, isn't she a trumper? I don't see that happening. You know, she's good at selling. She was at NBC. They're not the most Trumpy group of people.

That's going to happen. We'll see. Linda's at, right now, she's finding toilet paper somewhere. That's what she's doing. She's busy. Seriously, she's all locked up for the next 90 days at least. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. 90 days. All right. Well, that's a different thing. Speaking of Twitter, Tucker Carlson debuted his new Twitter show and Fox News immediately says he violated his contract. In a letter, Fox News lawyers say that Tucker's deal makes him exclusive to Fox and he's not allowed to perform over a network via streaming, which is exactly what he's doing. Lawyers for Carlson said any legal action would violate his First Amendment rights.

Fox reportedly aims to keep Carlson locked into a deal until 2025. This is delicious. It's fantastic. You know, he signed a contract. I did. I've signed them. I couldn't go other places. I didn't scream about my First Amendment rights. He was making a show. He's making a show and Elon's talking about shows and talking about

it like it's a show. So that's what it is. So I don't know. Well, there's a small issue and a big issue. And the small issue, and it's interesting, is anti-competes and if they're enforceable. And they are. And he's adopted this catchphrase or this go-to when you have no legitimate argument to scream First Amendment, when the First Amendment has absolutely no relevance here. First Amendment, again, is government shall pass no law which prohibits free speech. These are private companies. You're a big boy when you get paid $10 or $20 million a year. And the contract says specifically, you will not take content to a streaming, other streaming network of any kind. I mean, the language is definitive. I've been in those. You've had those contracts. You know them.

That's why I left so many. And if you're in California, they're difficult to enforce unless you're an officer or making over a certain amount of money. If your livelihood is put at stake, the most mendacious part of non-competes, and I'd like to see non-competes done away with, but the most mendacious part of non-competes is they now are with hairstylists who can't walk across the street to another hair salon. They're being abused. But when you're Tucker Carlson and you sign up to go to work for Rupert Murdoch- And you have big lawyers. You have big, important lawyers. Yeah, at $10 or $20 million a year, and you have very expensive lawyers and agents reviewing your contract, and you have an individual that will chase you to the four corners of the earth.

And let me bring this back to me. WPP, specifically Sir Martin Sorrell, tried to acquire two of my companies, Profit, my first brand strategy firm, and L2. And WPP, basically Sir Martin, he pioneered the notion of securitizing and making services companies investable assets. What do I mean by that? Lazarus had this key relationship with the CMO of P&G and had huge, huge profitable businesses that were very relationship driven and very volatile and insecure. Because if you lost one client or Shelly or Donnie decided he didn't like working for a bigger company, your investment could just crash. So what Martin did was he said, I know these things are very volatile assets, but if I create a mutual fund of 40 or 50 of them, they become much more predictable assets.

And he made them ready for public investment. And it was an incredible model because of the volatility and personality driven nature of these companies. They traded for five to seven times EBITDA. When he put them in a more less volatile diversified structure, WPP, it became worth 10 to 12 times EBITDA. So he just went out and made all of these accretive acquisitions. I get the purchase agreement for profit. I get the purchase agreement contract for L2. And it's a 45 page agreement that basically says, Scott, at any time I can basically sue you to the fucking ends of the universe. Right. Right.

Yeah. And if you piss me off, basically. And I remember calling the person, Sheila Spence, a super smart woman, saying, why on earth would I sign this? This is I got to sleep with one eye open and hope I don't piss off Sir Martin every day. That if he just doesn't like the cut of my jib one day, he can sue me. And she went into this whole thing, well, you got to understand, we work with entrepreneurs, we have to cover ourselves, we're making a big investment in you, and we never do that. I'm like, well, if you never do it, why is it in here? And ultimately, both times, I decided I just can't

sign this. I don't want to live this way. But guess what? Tucker Carlson signed it. And just to finish the point, Sir Martin, I heard about this. A small agency was not doing well. They were offered money to be bought by another big conglomerate. They just weren't getting along. It wasn't working for them. And Sir Martin decided, no, I'd rather let it die. I'd rather let it die than have it go to a competitor.

And he got to do that. When you're dealing with Rupert Murdoch, or guys like Surtin Murdoch, these guys do not scare easy. He's going to kill, he's trying to kill his career. And that's what he signed up for. I mean, what's really interesting, I had a similar, a much lesser kind of thing is I, every contract I've gotten, whether it's CNBC or the New York Times, I worked under contract for both of those. I work under contract for Vox actually too, because I like contracts. They say what they say, right? But they say what they say. And you can put them in and you can negotiate the stuff out. But one of the reasons I didn't sign again with CNBC, they give you, for people who don't know,

they give you a certain amount of money for exclusivity. And I was like, I'm not getting anything out of this exclusivity that's worth the money they're giving me, right? It's not worth it. I'm not getting anything out of this exclusivity that's worth the money they're giving me. That's right. It's not worth it. And I want to go on CNN if I want to go on CBS. I want to do whatever I want to do. And the money doesn't, you know, I just, I weigh them, right? And so it's not worth, I can make money better somewhere else.

And so it was so onerous. It was like, you can't like do this. And I was like, I have to, you know, flack my podcast. I got to flack Pivot. I got to like, I don't, it was much more lucrative. I got to party with Lucky. I got to party with Lucky. And the same thing with the New York Times.

They were, it was a very, there was an onerous thing that was essentially, you can't make podcasts anywhere. You know, and I was like, take it out or I'm not doing it. And they took it out. It was, it was onerous. But I'm constantly looking at the phrasing in these contracts. And I clarify it with them. I'm like, this means this. Please send this to me in a piece of paper that says this is precisely what it means. This guy is bullshit. It's bullshit. They're going to keep him off on the bench. They have a right to do it. I cannot stand the News Corp people. I cannot

stand Rupert Murdoch. But he bought them. He paid for them. He can keep them on the shelf if he wants to. But the two things, this is a good thing. This is how society should work. The more money here, the more you are paid, the more enforceable they are. Because a decent defense is, I need to make a living. Or even if they find you guilty, then what are the damages? And if you're a hairdresser, the damages just aren't going to be that big.

Or if you're a tier two anchor, the damages just wouldn't be that big. If you're Tucker Carlson and Rupert's going to say the decline in the stock here, the decline in ratings across all of our shows, and the distraction he has caused, the blatant violation of his agreement despite the fact we continue to pay him his $20 million, they are going to rip this guy limb from limb in court. Or if they need him, they'll hire him again. That's the way. Look, you know what's interesting? After that settlement, that billion-dollar settlement and more to come, no executive at Fox got fired except for Tucker Carlson. I mean, and then Chris Licht is out for doing, like having a reporter. But these are, this is,

what we're talking here is the small issue. Because as media, we're obsessed with media. The big issue here that warrants more attention is in this ridiculous rant, this ridiculous rant, he said the following thing. He said that Zelensky is a, open quote, persecutor of Christians. This is nothing but not even thinly veiled anti-Semitism.

Oh, totally. And when you have arguably the most famous news journalist or entertainment journalist, whatever you want to call him, in America, in a bow tie, on Twitter, basically engaging. They had a lot of people watching it. First episode. First episode. Let me stir up anti-Semitic feelings among people, by the way, who are the same people

who are going to believe me when in the same episode, I say that UFOs and extraterrestrial life are, open quote, actually real, close quote. Well, there are some questions about that, but go ahead. Well, I don't know. He took it too far. It's a little more. Anyway, he took it too far. Let's keep in mind, he's, okay, he's violated his non-compete. That's an issue. It's interesting. More than anything, he is a raging anti-Semite. That's the big story here. Yeah, I agree. You know, he's making a show. Elon's talked about it like shows. He's talked

about it like a show. And then he's like, it's actually, he can still tweet. He can still tweet as much as he wants. He just can't do a show. And that's what he's doing here, 100%. Like, come on, stop it. Stop it, Tucker. And by the way, just so you know, I asked my mother, interesting, speaking of Lucky, who watched Tucker, despite his insults of me, I said, are you watching him on Twitter? She's like, what? No. Why? Like, you know, there's that audience that did so well for him at Fox. We'll see if, well, he's not going to get to do it. That's the way it's going to go. So he's going to lose. They may settle, but probably they'll keep him on the bench. So sorry, Tucker. Sorry. Lastly, the SEC, speaking of badasses, the SEC suddenly woke up and they're coming for

crypto's biggest players, suing both Binance and Coinbase this week. Both are accused of selling assets that should have been registered as securities. But in Binance's case, its chief executive, Chengpeng Zhao, also known as CZ, is also accused of civil fraud. Binance's charge was siphoning off billions of dollars of customer money to a separate company owned by CZ. That's on top of nearly a dozen other charges, including manipulating investors. Both Coinbase and Binance have said they intend to fight back. At the time of his downfall, by the way, of SBF's downfall, Sam Begum Freed's, he tweeted, SBF is one of the greatest fraudsters in history. They had a bit of a

beef between each other. But, you know, this is, SEC hasn't been terrifically clear near as the government, whether it's a commodity or security. But here's Gary Gensler going for it. I just feel like we need to just finally acknowledge two truths. Crypto is a levered Ponzi scheme and isn't a thing, and we just shouldn't be talking about it as much. And headsets don't work, folks. Anyways, thanks for my TED Talk. Headsets? What do you mean headsets don't work?

It's a mixed reality. Anyways. Okay. All right. We're not going to that. Isn't that spatial? No. It's a new paradigm in computing.

Oh, I can't wait to – I'm going to send you a picture of me in it next week. But nonetheless, yes, they're going to sort out whether this is a security or a commodity. They're going to try to fight back. These companies are in trouble. Like, this just isn't – Of course they're securities. Yeah. Well, they're saying –

Of course they should be regulated. They're trying to get it over at the CFT or whatever, commodities, future trade, whatever. Do you have any thoughts on Gary Gensler on this issue? In my opinion, Gary Gensler and the SEC have done everything right here. I just wish they'd done it in X time instead of 8X. I feel like the sheriff showing up after everyone is kind of bloody. It's like, well, okay. It's great that you're here. But Gary, he's deliberate. He's very smart. He's not easily rattled. I enjoyed seeing him at your conference. He's another one of these people that I find

it encouraging that such talented people with a lot of options decide to go to work for the government. Where does a thankless job where everybody just second guesses them all day long? Yeah, I think Coinbase is already struggling, you know, and Binance, we'll see. Binance, I think is probably in much more of a world of trouble than Coinbase is. Anyway, let's get to our first big story. First, a warning, the story is distressing and probably not appropriate for young listeners, so heads up. Pedophiles on Instagram are openly marketing child sexual abuse material, or CSAM as it's called, and they're using Instagram's features to find customers. That's according to a report in the Wall Street Journal. It was a tremendous piece,

speaking, this is a new scrap bone property. It's been doing an amazing job at reporting, by the way. Let me separate that out. That site's work by the Stanford Internet Observatory. This is Alex Stamos, who we know. They found that Instagram's algorithm is helping users find accounts that market CSAM. To be clear, Instagram isn't hosting it. These accounts are directing users to websites and other platforms where they can purchase materials, but Instagram is accused of making it easy for users to find these accounts through hashtags and features like suggested for you. Instagram even auto-completed some searches with terms like boys and C-P, child pornography.

Sanford researchers found over 400 accounts that claimed to be created by children themselves, and some accounts are offered in-person meetups. Meta's response was really, well, we only found 10,000 or something, or it was, it's very hard to catch. I've done lots of interviews of this. Very difficult, pernicious, terrible, but again, something that should be the very lowest tier of ability to stop, right? They should be able to be doing this. They've laid a lot of workers off. I was told by Alex that they have laid a lot of, they're still at it, but they have lesser workers. Met employees told the Washington Post they worried about the effects of layoffs on platform safety. Of course, they were able to take down posts about abortion pills. So what do you think? Thoughts? Well, it's shocking, but it's not surprising. And that is, I don't think anyone at Facebook

is pro-child pornography. I think that there are people at Meta today that are horrified about this. And the problem we have in corporate America is poor incentives where money has washed over Washington and created regulatory capture, where amoral people who aren't bad people, but they're amoral if they can put enough distance between them and an opioid addict or a child that's being exploited, that the money that fills the void blinds them to how directly their actions are attributed to these things. blinds them to how directly their actions are attributed to these things. And it's kind of a failure of the U.S. public to elect individuals who create an algebra of deterrence. And I mean, look, we had a perp walk and we had a woman and her partner go to prison for 10 plus years because she lied to her institutional investors. The question here, I don't think any of this stops until there's a perp walk. Yeah. And then I think they figure it out.

On this issue, I agree. I heartily agree. You know, it's interesting, their current system, there's a database of these known CSAM images. The issue is they can't detect new images. You know, it's confusing whether it's an innocent image of your kid, you know, in the pool or something like that. The network is what's suggesting similar accounts to users. It's helped grow the network, this AI thing. Now, there's been some legislation thoughts.

The Section 230 has carved, already has a carve-out for prostitution and sex trafficking. You know, Senator Lindsey Graham wants to take it further. trafficking. You know, Senator Lindsey Graham wants to take it further. He backs a bill, the earn it bill that removes Section 30 protections from social networks so they don't adopt best practices around CSAM. He's introduced the bill before and it doesn't get through. Interestingly, the Stanford report said that TikTok doesn't appear to have this issue. Other networks, of course, had issues and the Stanford team said Twitter was fast to remove accounts marketing CSAM, but they have a massive problem because he's laid off everybody. And Alex tweeted about this, that they don't have access,

that Musk has just recently cut off access so they can't study it to the API. But it's embarrassing for Zuckerberg because he was someone who has said, this is important, you said, this is important. This is important. I bet. I have not been a fan of the Zuck. I bet he's horrified by this personally, professionally. But Instagram starts from a place of perversion. Meaning? What does the algorithm promote and love? A 16-year-old girl, and let's be honest, she's a girl, not a woman,

taking images of herself in sexualized outfits. We love that. And then you get to be evaluated by your peers and strange men all over the world. That's fucking perverted. Yeah, I would agree. I had that experience. Louis was like, look at this. Girls putting him up that he knew. and I was like, uh. And I want to be clear. I think I'm one of these free the nipple people, I think on TikTok and Instagram or wherever over the age of 18. If you want to be topless as a woman like a guy can be topless, go for it. Right. Anyone under the age of 18 should be fully clothed. Yeah. So age gating.

It goes back to this age gating issue. It goes back to, or maybe not even on the goddamn network. We age gate everything else. Yep. But if a 15-year-old can go on and become an influencer by posing in just incredibly sexualized positions, what do you know? There's child pornography on the same side, from the same company. These make it easy. It makes it easy. These people used to have to go to places. The internet has made it easy, and you cannot make it easy for these people. It's let a very unfortunate, very small group of people find each other and create network effects,

right? And some of that is good, right? The parents of kids with rare childhood diseases, there's some very positive things. But it all comes back to the same thing for me. Until we see a recognizable figure in tech do a perp walk, none of this stops. They're faster than us. And until then, they have to spend the money on safety systems, Twitter cutting everybody. You know where it's going. You know where it's going. Facebook cover cutting people for this. Substitute have to with should.

Because I don't think they feel they have to. And you know what's going to be the mother of all shit shows, and we've been talking about this, the six months before the election. Yeah. Even if Twitter decided, well, we would give up money for some sanctity of purity around our elections and we don't want another January 6th and this is getting real. They're not going to be able to. They're not going to be able to keep up with these guys. Yep. I would agree.

I highly recommend reading this article. There's been a number of them like this over the years. Never seems to change. It needs to now be legislated. Everyone should back this article. There's been a number of them like this over the years. Never seems to change. It needs to now be legislated. Everyone should back this bill. I don't know a whole lot about it, but a bill like this where they must do it or else they suffer consequences for it and significant consequences. And maybe that protection should be taken out of Section 230. It just seems like everybody certainly can agree. And I understand the panic around it that people try to get too panicky about generalized pornography on the

internet. Look, I'm sorry, there's going to be pornography in any medium, but this, any, you're right, and they shouldn't be on the platform. I mean, I've seen some of the stuff, and it's, even the light, the stuff of what you're talking about young girls posing i'm it's so so and i sound censorious i sound like a you know but no no no no no no no i have promotes i have good friends whose daughters at the age of 15 are putting images of themselves on Instagram that are horrifying for their parents and their friends, and then horrifying for the 15-year-old when she gets to be about 17 and 18 and develops in her prefrontal cortex and her judgment kicks in. But instead,

Instagram's like, no, let's let you make bad mistakes at scale. Yes, yep. That's exactly, bad mistakes at scale. Because we have algorithms that like it. And I mean, it just, these people- And that's not even the pernicious stuff that's really absolutely child pornography. And the ability for these people, these people should not be able to meet in a park. Like, I'm sorry, this is the class of people that really, it's sickening.

It's sickening. Read the article. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about golf branding and Saudi Arabia. We'll take a listener question about the future of Reddit. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?

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So the fight led to a merger. They were really fighting. That's what happened last week as the PGA Tour announced that it's joining with Saudi-backed Live Golf to form a new venture. No name yet. The deal is expected to go through in a few weeks and will include Europe's DP World Tour. But it's a combination of the American and Saudi groups that's most surprising. The two have been engaged in very, I would say, vicious lawsuits, including the head of the PGA essentially, you know, saying, why do we want the Saudis calling them all kinds, you know, talk about 9-11, talking about

the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, etc., etc. Suddenly, and he said, I know I sound hypocritical now, which of course he does, because in one suit, the PGA accused Saudi Arabia of using golf to, quote, sports watch the recent history of Saudi atrocities. Now they're hanging out. Now they are hanging out. And one of the things he said on an interview was, maybe we shouldn't have been so confidential about this and talk to more stakeholders. But boy, is this getting a lot of slapback. PGA hasn't really offered an explanation except to say, yes, they're hypocritical. Senate Democrats have called for an investigation. Saudi Arabia's

public investment fund will spend an untold amount, $3 billion, allegedly, on the new organization. It'll probably anger some of the PGA's own golfers. Some turned down huge offers from Liv to stay with the PGA Tour. Tiger Woods was reportedly offered more than $700 million to join, and he declined. So, what do you think? This is the biggest business story of the week, if not the month, and that effectively what has happened is there has been a creeping takeover of a U.S. sport or an international or a Western sport by the kingdom. It's not the kingdom buying Man City. It's not the kingdom getting messy to come to Saudi Arabia. They own Newcastle United Football Club. Just go ahead. Anyways, but what you have is an entire sport has acquiesced to what Logan Roy would say

is that money wins. And Jay Moynihan should be fired. And at some point, when you grab the hands of 9-11 widows and invoke 9-11 as moral reason why we can't do this, and it's not Tiger Woods that really lost out here. It was a tier two golfer. Sports, I mean, in golf, you're 10 years longer. You maybe have 15 years to make enough money to maintain your family's lifestyle, which they have gotten used to, a superstar lifestyle, for the next 50 years when a lot of these

guys don't know what they're going to do other than maybe buy an auto dealership. They're never going to make that kind of money again. And one of the worst things that can happen to you is when you make millions of dollars in your 20s and 30s and then tens of thousands in your 40s and 50s. Unlike most careers. Because it's all gone. Where you get better as you get older. Sports you get worse at as you get older. There are a lot of, imagine you're a tier two golfer.

These guys came at you and said, join Liv. We'll give you 30 to 50 million dollars over the next five years. You're financially secure. will give you $30 to $50 million over the next five years. You're financially secure. And you bought into this xenophobic nationalism, moral righteousness rap, and you turned it down. And now you're finding out that Jay Moynihan,

as he was holding the hands of 9-11 widows, was negotiating with them. And now they don't get that money. They're now working for a monopoly and all of their pricing power has gone away and they got to sign up for the same deals they've always had. Do you think it'll get pushed back? I don't know. I agree. He should be fired. This is just, he was, they had high dudgeon about the Saudis and now they're, oh, well, you know, we don't want to compete. We don't want to compete. We want to maintain our monopoly status and we're outgunned. That's right. And they're hurting us because they're spending money. And of course,

that's what the Saudis do. This is sports washing, no question. This is from a Twitter user, James Heskey, I thought was one of the best tweets. As part of the merger, the PGA will control holes 1 through 8 and 12, 16, and the Saudis will do 9, 11. So I want to be clear. I'm actually, I believe we need to engage with the kingdom. I think it's hard to find moral clarity in geopolitics. The kingdom is becoming a swing vote

on the global stage, fourth largest military. I actually think that MBS doesn't get enough credit for pivoting to capitalism. I am less hateful of the kingdom than a lot of people. And I've been to Riyadh.

This is gross. Specifically, Jay Monahan, when it reminds me a little bit, but on steroids, of these tech people that pretend to be all woke. And then their employees actually say, well, we really like, you know, daycare. We need some money. They're visiting Yasser, who runs the TIF. We need daycare. And they're like, well, no. He brings his moral superiority to work every day to try and convince young men who have a limited tenure in terms of their ability to make money to not take the quote unquote dirty oil money. And then he takes it. And he's negotiating as he's preaching.

Yep. Agreed. Here's a check. Go the fuck home and be a raging hypocrite somewhere else. But the sad part is, the sad part is, it won't matter. It won't matter. Do you think it goes through, maybe? It doesn't go through?

If this gets politically hot enough, could there be a CFIUS review or something? Yeah, let's make it politically hot. Yeah, let's make it politically hot. It reminds you of Donald Trump, who accused the Saudis of having links to 9-11, which they did. And of course, he changed his tune when he got billions of dollars. These people are bought and paid for. It's sickening. And that's fine. I hope the 9-11 victims, the families go after this. I hope our elected officials do. The Republicans should do it too. This is just astonishing. If Jay Moynihan had said, I'm a capitalist, we're going to do what's best for shareholder value, I respect that. And the kingdom has more money. The kingdom basically did to PGA what Amazon did to almost every retailer and Netflix to all cable companies. They just came in with an army of

capital that no one could compete with. Yeah. But there is an antitrust question. Last year, the PGA announced it would ban players who left to join Liv. Liv sued, saying the PGA has a monopoly on professional golf. It does. That suit is going away. But if Liv thought that was a monopoly, then what is this, would we say? A bigger monopoly. A bigger monopoly. A monopoly that's better funded now. Yeah.

better funded now. I think this brings up a host of issues. But when you think about this, the kingdom has done a creeping takeover of an entire sport. This isn't buying the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Can you imagine the Chinese doing this, trying this number? No, we have to deal with the Saudis, obviously. But honestly, as soon as we don't have to, I'll be thrilled. As soon as we get to nuclear and other energies, renewables, et cetera, I'm thrilled to leave them behind, these people. But of course we have to deal with them. But imagine the Chinese doing this. Yeah, but I don't. I want to be clear.

They wouldn't let it happen. I think the deal should go through. I wouldn't try and block the deal. No, I wouldn't. Because I do think it's going to be good for golf. I think capitalism is important. I think the players are going to make more money. I think the different affiliates.

I think it's going to be good for the U.S. economy and U.S. golfers and European golfers. And I think money wins in this case. I really do. I suppose. If you're going to start pretending to give a flying fuck about LGBTQ rights in the Gulf and use that as a means to influence impressionable young people who look up to you as the head of that organization and they turn down capital and economic security and you invoke all of these very emotionally manipulative call signs as you are negotiating with these folks, get out of town. Get out of town. Jay, get the fuck out of town. Get out of town. It really is. And here's what it says. It says all of these- What do they say to themselves as they're doing it? It sends all these signals to young men, male and female CEOs that it's okay to lie.

Have no shame. PGA, have no shame. You're shameful. It's literally like there is no decorum anymore. Well, you know, it's all the Silicon Valley people rushing to Saudi Arabia and kissing their ass to get money. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's fine. I've kissed a lot of ass for money.

I don't want to hear a word won for them about anything else. That's all. They're just, they've got bought and paid for, which is fine. Okay. If that's how you want to, I just, I can't imagine how he could have said these things publicly and then been in meetings. And the guy who did it, Yasser, I'm going to mispronounce his last name, is the head of PIF. He was on the board of Uber. Everybody likes Yasser. He's very friendly. And although at the time when the Saudis were investing in Uber, a lot of people on the

board were like, and it was right around the Khashoggi stuff. We're trying to get them off, you know, because of the obviously the implications of that. Anyway, well done, Yasser. But you're sports washing. And it doesn't matter what you do. You're still sports washing. And Jay, go fuck yourself. Correct? Is that the correct answer?

I agree with the latter part of that. I think American companies and organizations should engage commercially and financially with the kingdom. They're still sports washing. No doubt. And whatever. And a lot of men spend a lot of money on sports teams to impress their fourth wife and pretend they're never going to die.

I get it. They also didn't kill a journalist and dismember him. Okay, but at some point, does that... Okay, so do we no longer engage with the kingdom forever? No. No, not at all. But this is a win for them. 100%. And guess what? I just think we wouldn't let the Chinese do it. The deepest pocket wins a lot.

Chinese have the deepest pockets. We wouldn't let them do it ever, ever. Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. I think that's an interesting point. Would we let the Chinese take over PGA? Or the tennis tour? Never. Well, they've taken over media, Cara. They're trying. No, they have. Under the age of 25, they have taken over media. Yes, yes, that is correct.

But people are all up in arms about it. Some of us. Well, you are. Some of us. Many of us are. Anyway, in any case, Jay, go fuck yourself. Scott and I agree, you should go fuck yourself. You know what's shocking that surprises me?

What? Golf is on a tear. Is it? Golf is doing really well. I just met with this guy, Angus, from a Scottish private equity firm, just because I'm Scottish and trying to figure out a way to work more with Scotsmen, and they're investing in this fantastic concept called putt shack. I love anything that gets families

out of the house and together. Do you golf? And it's tech, I used to golf, and then I decided once I got out of the service industry and no longer felt the need to have father-son relationships with clients, I gave it up forever. I can't, if I've never played golf again, I'm fine.

Anyways. The Swisher boys play golf. It's a wonderful sport and it's addictive, but these things are amazing. You go and it's like, it's called, it's kind of technology driven golf and they do all these fun holes and you can drink and then it tells you what your score is and gamifies it. Anyways, I'm thinking about investing in putt check. Okay. Putt check. Okay. Putt check. But golf is on fire. Get this, rounds played in 2021 increased 19%. About 20% of American sports fans follow golf compared to American football.

I thought golf, 10 years ago, I would have guessed that golf was a structural decline. And it's not. It's doing really well. Okay, all right. Well, pickleball. Pickleball, everybody. Okay, Scott, if the Saudis come for pickleball, I'm getting in their way. Okay, Scott, let's get if the soundies come for pickleball, I'm getting in their way. Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got you've got I can't believe I'm gonna

be a mailman. You've got mail. Hey, Karen, Scott, I'm wondering if you guys have a take on the chaos that's been going on on Reddit this week. Reddit announced that ahead of their IPO going public later in 2023, they are going to begin charging third-party apps for use of their API, which will force most of these third-party apps to shut down and funnel the majority of users to the official Reddit app. I'm curious how a company like Reddit

presents themselves as a profitable company to investors without alienating a user base that is by and large pretty resistant to being advertised to or becoming the commodity in terms of eyeballs that are sold to advertisers? Thanks. Bye. That's a great question. We were going to talk about Reddit because they had layoffs this week, about 90 people at 5% of the workforce. They definitely are mad about these, angry about these API changes. A lot of people are doing this. Twitter's doing it. Many people are charging for API. They say third-party apps help with issues like accessibility for visually impaired people.

Many of Reddit's volunteer moderators use bots to help with moderation tasks. These bots cost money after the API change. Many Reddit communities plan to go dark on June 12th in protest. But most networks ban third-party apps. Twitter did it. They're all of them. You can't do it with Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, the popular third-party app for YouTube shut down after a legal threat from Google. My sons use Reddit all the time for video. And at some point, they need to make money from all that usage, presumably. So, and at some point they need to make money from all that usage, presumably. You know, isn't that precious that there's apps and APIs that don't want to be charged money for something that was free. And there's two sides of the trade. Go somewhere else that brings you the same value that's free. Well, this is a company that was more shaggy than others. It's a for-profit firm.

It's got investors. It's got employees with stock options that want their own economic security. This is about, and I understand there's a nice vibe there and a nice culture. I think this will be almost meaningless. There'll be a loud vocal minority that'll take to Twitter. There'll be a few high profile, you know, Birkenstock will remove their presence from Amazon.

So less Birkenstock than dude at Reddit, but go ahead. And Reddit is prepping for an IPO. Which they've had to delay. Is that right? I mean, but clear, I think Reddit is phenomenal. I think they do a great job. But I just don't, I think this is what every other company that's serious about profitability and going public does. And there's two sides of the trade. If you're unhappy, go somewhere else. Yeah. One of the things that reminds me of many years ago, Twitter used to be super third-party app friendly. And then one day they weren't. And I remember the meeting, they had, you know, they had those Twitter, they had had those, I forget what it was, the Bird Conference or whatever. I was at it with, I think Dick Costa was the CEO.

And everybody was up in arms that they were, you know, that they had sort of sidelined a lot of the third party apps and who had grown, you know, they had encouraged them for years. So people would use Twitter. And then they're like, guess what? The Twitter app is all that counts. And I remember a lot of these third party app people being shocked. Like, they're like, Kara, can you believe it? I'm like, yeah, like you're riding off their time. Facebook did the same thing when it cracked down for lots of reasons on third-party apps. It is about the business, whether it's Facebook or Instagram, TikTok or Twitter, or any of these things charging for, it seems inevitable. I don't, you know, it's a nice thing to be able to give, but

they need to make money. Correct? That's it. That's where it is. We're sisters from another mother on this. Tonight, we're agreeing on so many things. Third-party apps can, other groups do push it, Mastodon and other Fediverse services encourage developers to build their own apps, and it can create a really exciting ecosystem. Often, the company buys the most popular of those in the end, you know, the one that's most creative. And it does, it definitely leads to creativity around usage of these things, because the companies, you have to wait for the company's app to update or be, to add features and stuff like that. So, there are good parts of these third-party apps. But ultimately, they always end up being,

you know, at the mercy of the bigger companies. And they change, they always end up charging or limiting or whatever. They give it away to build traffic and affinity, and then they start typically charging. That's the model. And I think as a percentage of gross revenue, retailers on Amazon, third-party retailers, have gone from something like 24% of revenue to Amazon to 50%. I mean, this is just how the game is played. The bigger question is, is a specific industry, and I don't know what you would call the subset of this industry, is it so concentrated that they have

monopoly power and they need to be broken up? I think that's a fair question that should be asked. But as it relates to a group of people, you know, getting upset, well, okay, you know. Well, Amazon gets some- It'll be a lot less expensive than a mixed reality headset. Stop with that. I'm going to see it. I'm so excited to see it. Well, Amazon gets some. It'll be a lot less expensive than a mixed reality headset. Stop with that. I'm going to see it. I'm so excited to see it. Oh,

God. In any case, Reddit person, sorry. So sorry. Guess what? It is capitalism after all. The CEO,

Steve Huffman, probably would say the same. Anyway, if you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. This is the third prediction I got right. I'm just saying, I'm getting good at it. I'm learning at your feet, so to speak.

So mine are, I have two that are really boring. The first is Jay Monahan. I love the term that someone used for Chris Licht, that he'd lost the room. Jay Monahan has lost the locker room. Ah, yes. I can't imagine how many golfers who stood to make 10 to 100 million dollars

over the next few years have now been totally, totally fucked. Because now they work for the same monopoly they used to, and Liv's going to say, oh, okay, great. You're now in a worse negotiating position than you were. And they're like, Jay, we fucked up. We believed you. And I think that he's gone. Yeah, all the agents must be calling him. And I think that in order, they'll try and put a good face on it and say, and Jay will declare victory and say, this is a good moment for me to move on. He's out.

And then I think the next big issue we're going to hear about in the present. Maybe he could work at CNN. But go ahead. He's out. And then I think the next big issue we're going to hear about in the present- Maybe he could work at CNN, but go ahead. There you go. There you go. Just, yeah. Did I tell you Chris looked off from his show and then he was fired 11 days later?

We talked about it earlier. You were type Boyd Mary, as you said, but go ahead. Oh my God. Yeah, that's not happening, Scott, just FYI. No, I've gotten used to that. I've gotten used to my face for podcasting. Stay away from very nice Amy and tell us. You stay away from her. Yeah, trust me, no, Scott, just FYI. No, I've gotten used to that. I've gotten used to my face for podcasting. Stay away from very nice Amy and tell us. You stay away from her.

Yeah, trust me. No one's going to call me. Anyways, and then I think the political hot potato that's about to emerge in the presidential race, especially on the Republican side as they go after Biden, is the listening station and facility that the Chinese are building in Cuba. That's going to be a big deal. I agree. I agree. For people who don't know, there's this report in several news organizations that China is paying Cuba to create a listening station 100 miles from the U.S., which, of course,

they would do. It's sort of the Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 cyber version. I think it's a big deal. Do you have any predictions? I do. I do think the entry of Chris Christie into this... I didn't see that. How was it? Oh, he's so funny. He's really good. A friend of mine worked for him when he was a prosecutor in New Jersey, a federal prosecutor, and said he's the most talented speaker, argument maker, and not a fan of his politics in any way, but was like, had to give it to him kind of thing. And I gotta

agree, he's already on the move doing really good explanations of why Trump sucks. He's being the flak jacket and he's, I don't know if it's effective, but I have to tell you, again, my mom was like, well, did Trump cause all that

deficit? I didn't know. And it was interesting. I was like, oh, my mom was like, well, did Trump cause all that deficit? I didn't know. And it was interesting. I was like, oh, yeah. And she goes, well, that's terrible. And I'm like, huh, interesting. Like, right? Like, it works. I think he's going to be a really interesting, I think he's going to, people think he's not going to be effective. I think he's going to be very effective at calling out a lot of the Trump stuff that's ridiculous. Just, you know, the constant one. Chris Christie comes across as authentic. He does. He's really, I mean, he was way too close with Trump, obviously.

And that's where he'll get dinged. It's like, you liked him until you hated him. But you know what? So what? So what? I don't care about that. He also did a really good thing. I guess Trump calls him fat, which is sort of pot kettle kind of situation.

He had a great comeback for that, too. It's really a mistake to argue with him. I think he's going to be effective. That's my prediction. That's my prediction. I like it. Mike Pence, less so. Although he was pretty firm against Trump.

What he did, interestingly, I'll finish on this, is he was on Dana Bash. He was on CNN. A very good interview. Dana did a good job. He said anyone who violates the Constitution should never be president. Anyone who tries to make someone violate the Constitution shouldn't be president. He's referring to Trump. And then she asks, will you support the Republican nominee? And he goes, yes, no matter who. Okay. That makes sense. You're like, oh, God, Mike Pence. Consult the Bible immediately. This is really crazy.

like, oh, God, Mike Pence. Consult the Bible immediately because this is really crazy. All right, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot and lots of news, I think. The indictment for Trump is coming down. There's all kinds of stuff. Hopefully, the haze will be gone. Please read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andertott engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech

and business. Two things. The first is lucky. The second is jello shots. They had jello shots at the event, by the way. They were good. Yeah. You see those in college.