Pivot - Platforms prep for election, Panera CEO on the coffee "rundle", and proposition-22 is a fail

Episode Date: November 3, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about how the platforms prepare for election misinformation in the week ahead. Then they are joined by Niren Chaudhary, the CEO of Panera Bread, to discuss their coffee "rundle" and grab and go food industry during the pandemic. In wins, Kara praises Texas Supreme Court for blocking a petition to exclude ballots. Scott's fail is proposition-22. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London and beyond and see for yourself how traveling for business can always be a pleasure. one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. There's nothing I can do except not get on the highways. So a bunch of Trump chumps block up traffic.

That's a really lovely thing to do. What a bunch of assholes. I don't know what else to say. Well, you heard Chevrolet is offering 0% financing to anyone who's a fucking moron. So there was a run on trucks. And by the way, and they're channeling their inner French union. I'm trying to figure out how blocking traffic gets you more votes. I don't know.

They're just assholes. They're just assholes. I don't know what else to say. It's like, you know, someone was like, oh, you like it when Antifa does? I don't even know who Antifa, like, or whatever. I'm like, no, I don't like it. No, I don't like it at all. I don't like any of it.

Like, and I definitely don't like you guys, like, thinking it's fantastic. So don't even try to catch me on that one. They absolutely should have had blown-up dolls on the roof of Chris Christie. I mean, you know he had no comment about that whatsoever. Like, yeah, I'm going to stay out of this one. Ugh, whatever. It's so funny. They were like, AOC, we blocked the bridge. And she goes, I took the frog's neck, you assholes.

I know my way around. There's so many assholes out. It's just like it's Halloween for assholes. Okay. It's one thing to be an asshole. What's intolerant is to be stupid. It's like, well, how is that going to help your cause? You got to think that they literally, a couple hundred people are just voting tomorrow just because they're so pissed off. You're on your way to work. You're on your way to pick up your kid from school. Yeah. And someone blocks traffic? Yeah. They're going to try it all over the place tomorrow for voting, I think. I think that's just like, you know, I think they're going to get more serious with the guns and everything else. I mean, you know, the whole Biden bus thing, it's like really dangerous, actually. It's like playing chicken on a highway is not really a cool thing to do. If someone had gotten hurt, it would have,

just the whole thing. And then for Trump to say it's great, and for Rubio, that little stupid sidekick. By the way, here Senator Rubio is already calling donors and raising money for 2024. Whatever. He's already raising money. I'm going to do everything I can to defeat him. I've decided I'm going to, like, move to

Florida. Like, I just, like... Come on down. You know, he's just the worst. He's, like, the worst because he's, like, an Igor, and he's like a loser. He's pretty bad. Like, I just like... Come on down. You know, he's just the worst. He's like the worst because he's like an Igor and he's like a loser and like loser. Like Republicans, you can do better than that if you want to have a bully. Don't hire the bullies. No, he's not a problem. But if you reverse engineer a lot of our biggest problems, think about immigration reform. He was on this task force. They brought him in, young senator. He's very compelling. He's very charismatic. Sure. And he literally said, young senator. He's very compelling. He's very charismatic. Sure. And he literally said, I got messages that the far right didn't like the immigration reform. And so,

he totally cut and run, totally killed the thing. If we'd had immigration reform four or five years ago when that task force, that bipartisan task force was assembled, the world could have been, in America, a much better place. He's literally been posing for the cameras in Iowa for eight years. He's a witless, spineless imbecile. I'm sorry at this point. They can do better. I literally like Nikki Haley better, which is really hard for me to say out loud. Yeah, I like Governor Haley. At least she's like, whatever. She's a strong woman. It's a really interesting situation for all of them. We'll see what happens, but we can't do anything about it. So let's talk like one of the things.

Well, just, I love a movie reference. What you said reminded me, Vito Morganson, a deeply underappreciated actor. Eastern Promises, a fantastic film. Agreed. Obviously, the Hobbit trilogy, but there's a movie, he played a movie. The Marine movie with Demi Moore. The Marine movie with Demi Moore? Yeah.

Okay, but go ahead. Oh, you mean the Seal movie movie with Demi Moore? Yeah. Okay. But go ahead. I'll find it. Oh, you mean the Seal movie where she's a seal? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was also in The Hunt for Red October. But he's been in a bunch of History of Violence.

It's a fantastic movie. Anyway. Anyway. He's in a movie. I forget the name of it, where he plays an addict with Sandra Bullock, and they're both in rehab. And he has a statement. He plays a pitcher, a reformed pitcher,

and he says, once the ball's out of your hands, it's between God, the weather, and the batter. And what you said makes sense. The ball's out of our hands, right? Yep. Anyways, so. It was called G.I. Jane, and he played Master Chief, if you remember.

Master Chief, Master Chief. Ridley Scott film, a Ridley Scott film. I love that movie. I hate to say, I love that movie. Really? I don't know why, a Ridley Scott film. I love that movie. I hate to say I love that movie. Really? I don't know why. I don't know why. It's so bad.

Wait, a woman dressed up as a Navy SEAL. I'm trying to think why you like that movie. She just was, I love when Demi Moore goes for it. I don't know why she didn't have a bigger career because she's just shameless in so many good ways. So that's why I like her. Deeply a misunderstood artist. Yeah, right, not an artist. But Viggo Mortensen, I agree. He's been an amazing movie. that's why I like her. Deeply a misunderstood artist. Yeah, right.

Not an artist. But Viggo Morgensen, I agree. He's been an amazing movie. He's underappreciated. The tech companies, speaking of strong people, have done really well and reported earnings late last week.

No surprises. They surged. Their stocks are off though today, even though there's been a bit of a rally. There was a downturn in Wall Street and now, but the techs aren't coming, jumping as much as the other

companies like retailers and such. Why is that, Scott? Well, Amazon, I mean, Amazon, think about this. In the post-pandemic- 200% rise in profits, whoa. Yeah, the profits up threefold. It's really almost scary that Amazon, if you look at their business, whether it's cloud computing, whether it's streaming video platform, delivering stuff to your home, I mean, it's as if this company was invented for a pandemic. And then a lockdown, stimulus, central retailers, and Amazon's done a great job. I think that one of the biggest, we don't like to acknowledge the threats that didn't result in a panic. like to acknowledge the threats that didn't result in a panic, but I believe that we would have panic if Amazon and Walmart's supply chain had been interrupted. I think that's when people would have grabbed their Glock and gone to Publix. And they both did, I think they both did a great

job to their credit. But it's clear these companies, if they can, when there's an opportunistic infection that takes out a lot of business and unemployment doubles and these companies massively accelerate, it's like, you know, heads they win, tails they win. This is kind of blown by all reasonable standards of antitrust. So, what's the bear case? Is there a bear case for them that there's no stimulus, there's no what? What's the, that this election is confused? That's assuming the bear case for everybody, right?

I don't. I think, I mean, Facebook, I think the bear case around Facebook is that executives there do a perp walk. I think Facebook is so beyond the pale of damage to the Commonwealth that they might actually have poked the bear so many times that I think they're on thin ice. All right. Apple, Apple is running out of people to sell a smartphone into. They've got to come up, you know, they'll move to the rundle. But Amazon, it's just hard to imagine that Amazon doesn't run through the tape and not only win the 100 meter, but wins the 500 meter that wins the marathon.

It's just hard to see them slowing down. And then Google, I think, is subject to some antitrust. But if you look at Azure up 48% year on year. Yeah. The company I was following, and so just some disclosures. I'm a shareholder in Apple and Amazon. I used to be in Facebook. And the people correctly highlighted I was being a total hypocrite.

Shameful. Yes. I sold my Facebook stock. But anyways, I'm also a shareholder in Twitter because I think Twitter has been grossly, not mismanaged, but undermanaged. And I don't know if you listened to that. You probably didn't do this, but listen to the earnings call. It was literally the day before, there's a story in the Wall Street Journal that comes out that says, okay, this co-CEO who manages two companies takes four ice baths a day, and it's described as very hands-off. In other words, he's just not fucking home. He's not there.

He's the literally absentee CEO. Doesn't even begin to describe this. Go ahead. All right. Okay. And then in the earnings call, he spoke for about 20 seconds and then handed it off to the CFO. It was like, I don't know what's going on here. And then did you see what happened to Twitter stock?

What? Twitter stock is off 25% in the last two trading days. And all the, you know, CNN and CNBC are all saying that it was low user growth. Twitter's numbers were good. You know what they did? It's very difficult for a company to accelerate when it doesn't have a CEO. I think this was a referendum. I think the absolute shellacking in the marketplace

that it's gotten is a total... I think all the investors listening to Anna's call go, oh, shit, no one's home. Anyway. There's going to have to be a lot of home going forward for sure for these companies. All right. We're going to go into our big story, which, Scott, is the election. Okay.

We can't escape it. Everyone has election on the brain. Not Kara. Kara's put down her phone and is not looking at Nate Silver or et cetera, et cetera. So, as we go to the polls, let's talk about how platforms are prepping for whatever lies ahead. You talk about a perpwop of Facebook. First up, Twitter will put messages at the top of users' feeds that are preemptively debunk false information about voting by mail and election results. By the way, Jonathan Swan at Axios is reporting that Trump plans to declare victory before the polls close on Tuesday. If he looks to be ahead, Trump said he didn't say that.

It's very confusing. As usual, Trump is muddying the waters. This is his favorite thing to do. Wikipedia is also prepping for misinformation by creating misinformation taskforks. Dozens of people across the foundation's security, product, legal, and communications team have set up protections for the website, guiding hundreds of unpaid volunteers who edit its pages. For example, the main page for the 2020 election will be locked and unable to be edited without guidance from the task force, which is interesting.

Meanwhile, PayPal has ended its account with Epic, the domain registrar for far-right websites such as 8chan and a domain to the Proud Boys website. Everybody's trying everything. I don't know if Mark Zuckerberg is worried about civil unrest. Thank you, Mark, since you caught some of it. A lot of these people who did

the traffic thing were organizing on Facebook, of course. So, what do you think? What do you think? Well, I'm going to turn the question back to you after a quick comment. Is this Y2K, which never happened? But personally, I think the civil unrest is not coming. I think that the election interference is not coming because I think it's going to be that decisive tomorrow. And again, that's my bias coming out. But the only thing I would speculate about is that, for example, that sad little penis gang from Murder, She Wrote that surrounded the Biden truck or the Biden bus. Yeah. What do you know?

It was organized on Facebook. Facebook, yeah. the Biden bus. What do you know? It was organized on Facebook. And I bet we're going to find out slowly but surely that when bad actors, i.e. Russia, saw that going on, I mean, we provide the spark. They poured fuel on it. We're going to find there were instances all through this election where Americans gave into their worst instincts and provided really negative, divisive, polarizing, terrible content for the sanctity of our elections. And there were bad actors who Facebook's not interested in rooting out because it results in a decline in shareholder value came in and poured fuel on it. And that's

going to be one example. Agreed. You know, this is just, they just have to, you don't even have to try. And I think some of them could be, you know, remember last time the Russians started groups to get people angry. But what's interesting, it's not just Facebook, though. Let's be honest. I just got a text from one of my sons. It said, I just got Trump ad that was ad on YouTube. He uses YouTube a lot.

That was a Latino-themed song to get them to vote for me and clips of his dancing. Why are they targeting me? I get Biden ads, too, but the contrast is incredible. Biden ads are just so much more respectable. And then a man wrote back, every dollar the Trump campaign spends getting their ad in front of a lefty 15-year-old in D.C. is a dollar well spent, my humble opinion. A lefty 15-year-old. They're grooming him for the future. He's not lefty at all, actually.

He questions everything. There's nothing that make this kid question. But one of the things that is interesting about that is, like, he's been focused on these ads, and he finds the Trump ads reprehensible, and they let him get away with it. And it was just a story in the Post today talking about that, is, like, how much they get away with on YouTube or Facebook or wherever. So I think, you know, the postmortem should be fascinating, although we might not be able to trace their postmortem. Yeah, but you, so the question I did want to turn back to you is, so these people stopped reaching out to me about two years ago, and there's pretty much a blanket order across all of them not to speak to me, but they do speak to you. What is your sense of their efforts around election misinformation?

Do you think, A, it's effective? Do you think it's genuine? What do you think is going on at these companies? You know, I've done a lot of interviews lately about this. I think the problem is the disinformation is coming from explicit. It's not Russia. It's Trump, right? So it's the Trump people or the Trump minions and everything else. And so it's explicit disinformation that you can see in plain sight. So same thing with the racism, same thing with all of this stuff, the violence, the casual violence. Everything implicit has been made explicit. So now we see it like, oh, look, here they are just calling for, you know, beat this person up or I'm going to fire this guy or lock them up. Like it's not. So I think that's one of the issues is so they have to just take him off. That's the only choice.

And so what they're doing is selectively disciplining, which of course doesn't work. Right. And so I think there's frustration with the fact that there's nothing they can do about it. Really. This is what they've been found out. And to a lack of realization about the fact that the reason they, these people act in this way is because they've never been disciplined, right? And so it's too late. It's literally like you've had a group of kids sugar for their whole lives and you're surprised they have ADHD or whatever. They're like obese or whatever, on and on and on. And I think at this point, if I were the Trump people, why not break the laws? There's no enforcement. Why not? Why not? And so I think they feel powerless. And at the same time, they cause the whole thing, I guess. You know what I mean? So you get a lot of,

well, we're trying our best. We're trying our best. And you're like, you know what? Just stop because it doesn't work. It doesn't help. It doesn't stop things. And you do around the edges by getting rid of QAnon and this and that. But the next day, it morphs into something else. And it's the platform that's the problem. Well, Steve Bannon really chills down my spine because he can see it. He's a smart one. Steve Bannon's very smart. But he said, you know, the strategy which the Trump campaign is now adopting, again,

as you get closer to the election, you flood the zone with misinformation. Just flood it. And confuse and discourage people. And I'm just going to be very, it's going to be very interesting. I think they're in a state of panic. I think Facebook and Twitter are like, oh no. And again, the analogy is our parents are home and the dog is pregnant and the garage is on fire. We are in deep shit because let's be honest, there's no way to wallpaper over, you know, we just have run out of excuses. And the election is so important, and we're going to find, I just think they know we're going to find out a lot of bad shit went on. It's just a lot of bad shit. Yep.

And I wonder how genuine they are and the level of resources they are actually allocating to trying to suppress this. It's going to be fascinating. It'll be very interesting. Well, it depends on who wins. If Trump wins, they're okay. They're like, they're not going to look. Why would you look at it? I mean, you have two ways.

If Trump wins, which seems unlikely, but if it happens, they're sort of off the hook. And then who knows? Then they just have to do it themselves. And they may not be able to because this is working for that group. They're sort of off the hook. And then who knows? Then they just have to do it themselves. And they may not be able to because this is working for that group. If Biden wins, does he have the energy? He's got a million other things to do. This is not, Trump isn't going away.

That's the other thing is what do you do with a post-election Trump who's lost? And that's what's interesting. Will he fade away? And he could because people instantly get tired of this bullshit, I think, on one hand. I think that's right. Or is he going to be, you know, at some point everyone's going to go, stop talking. Like, stop, like, if he's not president, then he doesn't really matter. And if, especially if he's locked up into legal battles, which I think is going to happen for him. So what do you, what do you do with post-Trump Trump?

Post, you know what I mean? Like, that's what I mean? Like, that's what I think will be interesting, is how are they going to deal with him? I think they'll be much quicker to not worry about right-wing bias, which is bullshit, and it's a ridiculous worry on their part. I think they'll be more willing to cut him off. You know what happens to him? The analogy is Meghan and Harry. If Meghan and Harry were awful people, that's the analogy here. And that is once Meghan and Harry left the Viking Palace, no one gives a shit about them.

No one gives a shit. Right. And I genuinely believe that once this guy is out of the—I think his core base, they're not drawn to him because of ideology. They do love him. They're drawn to him because they thought he was a winner. And America needs to win again. And America needs to be politically incorrect.

And we're sick of these Democrats and Republicans lying to us when we want change. The moment he's out of office, first off, every Republican senator whose testicles have not descended, which is about 52 of the 53,

are going to totally abandon him. I think even Fox is going to say, do we really? Then he'll make noises around starting, the latest one is he'll make noises around starting a right-wing media network. I know what's involved. Maybe it'll be like Quibi. It'll be just like Quibi, I'll tell you that. Yeah, and you do too. We know what's involved in running and starting a media company. And guess what? It takes a certain level of competence. And he is not able, he has demonstrated an inability to surround himself with competent people. So, I just quite frankly think he was, I think it is shocking how fast it's going to fade to black. I don't think Fox is going to want him on anymore. I think I'm like, okay, turn the page. Well, you know, it's interesting. Can he go into a Reagan-like zone, you know, like, and he will dispense his power to the people?

I don't know. It just depends on how quickly this base... Say more what you mean by that, a Reagan-like zone. It depends on what the numbers are.

Like, if they're pretty close, he has power. If they're not, it's just a bunch of crazy, like, the people who run around and do their truck thing

and whatever. You know, eventually they'll want too many Twinkies and have a heart attack. We're all afraid to say this, and I want you to give me the argument, is that all this early, but I think more people in Texas have voted before the election than voted at all. And I'm just trying to imagine, I know there's two factors. There's COVID-19, I want to get it out of the way, and then there's passion.

And I'm trying to figure out what's happened in the last four years that would have increased the passion of Trump relative to Biden. It strikes me that— No, it's Biden. It's get rid of Trump, people. All of this early voting, I don't see how that can't be a positive. Which is why they're making so many moves around the voting, trying to suppress the votes. That's why they're doing that,

because they realize what those votes, what those ballots are saying. What's interesting to me is, you know, when I interviewed Hillary Clinton just recently, she said what you're saying. She's like, it's going to be over for him, and then he's going to be is, you know, when I interviewed Hillary Clinton just recently, she said what you're saying. She's like, it's going to be over for him, and then he's going to be sucked up into lawsuits. Like, she knows about it becoming irrelevant. 100%. Southern District is waiting. You know, that's one.

And I think she wasn't even talking about the lockup because she was not even—that wasn't even the topic. It's that people—he's going to instantly get tiresome, especially if he loses badly, because his whole image with his base is based on winning and fuck the man and that kind of thing. And so she was very much like that. I was like, I don't know. The people who like him really like him, like really, really like him for some reason, because I think it fills the holes in their own feelings of being left out or being sidelined. You know who the new Donald Trump is? Who? I had Stephen Schmidt on the Prof G podcast. By the way, very thoughtful guy.

He is. He's really good. By the way, they're going to be the enemy again soon, so go ahead. You think they're going to be? Oh, they're still conservative. They're still very. The Lincoln Project is pretty interesting. They are.

I'm very drawn to it. I know you are. I'm very drawn to it. I like raging moderates who are creative and unafraid. I like these guys. I like the fact they're smart and savvy. I like the fact they make money. People criticize them, but I like that.

If I put together a list of things they like, you wouldn't like them. But go ahead. That's probably true. I like them, too. Believe me, I like Rick Gould. Anyways, I'm a big fan of Steve. We've had him on the show. I'm a big fan of Steve Schmidt.

So he came on, and he said something really interesting, and that is, I agree with you that his people aren't going away, but you know what? They're going to find a new Mussolini, and you know who the new Mussolini is? Who did he say? It's going to be Tucker Carlson. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes, he will be a political force.

And Stephen Schmidt said that he thinks the most viable candidate on the Republican side in 2024 is going to be Tucker Carlson. I agree. And think about how much more compelling and smart and Tucker Carlson is than Trump. And he goes in with the same features, the reality TV awareness. They can run a bunch of clips of him embarrassing scientists and embarrassing Democrats.

I think right now, I hate to admit this. Yeah, he's a very dangerous man. I think he's the front runner. I think he's the front runner for the GLT he's the frontrunner for the GLT 2024. What's fascinating is liking both people very wealthy, grew up very wealthy, and Tucker Carlson, really fancy. I didn't know that. At one point, he goes after me quite a bit. He does. When he has me.

But he always talks about my private school education. I'm like, your private school costs $10,000 more than my private school, my friend. That's your best comeback is your school costs $10,000 more than mine. I'm just saying, I don't like him telling you I'm insulting my private school. Yours was $60,000, mine was $10,000 more than my private school, my friend. That's your best comeback is your school costs $10,000 more than mine? I'm just saying, I don't like him telling you I'm insulting my private school. Yours was $60,000, mine was $50,000. Oh, my God. Well, it's true. It's like I can't believe he's using that and he went to a more expensive private school.

I just am fascinated. Your water park was bigger than ours. He is from a much richer family than mine, let me just say. Really? I do not come from poverty. I do not. But the man, it's like the Swanson fortune. I didn't know that.

He's like the TV dinner people. You know when I got the answer? I think it's Swanson. You guys should wed thee to unite Westeros. You shall bear children together. There will be the next king. And I will be your hand. I will be your hand. Oh, it's all figured out. I'm looking this up. I think it's Swanson. I'm pretty sure it's the TV dinner. He's rich as heck. He goes to Maine.

I don't go to Maine. What does that mean? What do you got against Maine? We have big houses in Maine, and they're really not very comfortable, and they like them. Very important ballot initiative in Maine. What? Which one is that? Maine and Alaska, both.

And this is huge. Getting rid of Susan Collins? What? No, no, no, no. Well, I think she's out. We'll see, but I think she's out. I think she's only number two to only Rubio in terms of someone who lacks all backbone. May I just read his name?

Tucker Swanson McNair Carlson. That's his name. Indubitably. Tucker Swanson McNair Carlson. I am Kara Swisher. That is it. That is my entire name. K-Swish.

Let me just say. I am of Kara. Let me just say that again. Tucker Swanson McNair Carlson. He's a rich kid. He's a rich kid. I totally opened that Tucker bashing session. But Maine, back to Maine. So, Maine has a ballot initiative and so does Alaska. And they're really two important initiatives. And I would say that they're only second to 24 in terms of indicating where the country might be headed, California 24. By the way, no on 24, everyone. Anyway, so it's for rank voting. And I think that we need in America to make our elected leaders more representative of America. And I don't speak for the silent majority here, but a silent majority or a majority that's been silenced is what I'll

affectionately refer to as raging moderates. And our current election system doesn't allow moderates to get any oxygen, and rank voting does. So I think rank voting, these two things in Alaska and Maine are – I really hope rank voting becomes a thing. We need more people in the center. We need more purple. We need less red, less bloody red, less iridescent blue. We need more purple. We need more people in iridescent blue. We need more purple. We need more people in the middle of the black and white.

I like purple. Let me just go back to Tucker Carlson for a second. I'm ready to go with you. In 1996, Carlson's parents divorced after a nine-year marriage reportedly, quote, turned sour. Carlson's father was granted custody of Tucker and his brother. Carlson's mother left the family when he was six, wanting to pursue a, quote, bohemian lifestyle. Interesting. Well, that makes bohemian lifestyle. Interesting. Well, that makes him more likable.

I know, but I think it made him mad. And then his father married the heiress to the Swanson fortune. Anyway, and I don't know how Swanson got his name, but there you have it. In any case, we are going to, we have a lot to go. So I'm going to ask you, we're going to go on a quick break in a second and a palate cleanser from election talk. Who is going to end up the worst of the platforms in this situation if you had to pick? Facebook, YouTube, what? Oh, there's just no getting around it. Apple is disarticulated and starched its hat white. Hands down, the scaled sociopathy that is Facebook never fails to disappoint.

We're going to find out that it's just built into their culture, a total lack of regard for our commonwealth, a total lack of regard for our species in terms of cooperation, a total lack of regard for how dangerous it is to have algorithms. And by the way, it's nothing that Twitter isn't guilty of. It's just that Facebook's better at it. But yeah, we're going to find out all sorts of crazy shit about Facebook and how this $300 million to fend off election interference was nothing but what Vaseline on a giant gaping wound that is the sociopathy of the most damaged individual to reach this level of power. Tucker Carlson. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Miss Swanson, yeah, Tucker Swanson.

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What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk, and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash Zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere and you're making content that no one

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Well, Scott's going to start it off because it was his choice to have you here, and I'm very excited. So, Niren, full disclosure, when I heard about the Rundle program that Panera was offering, the coffee program, I reached out to Niren and asked if I could invest. So, I want to disclose that. And I haven't made that investment yet, but if he wises up, he's going to take my money. But I am so impressed with this company because I look at the best performing stock of the last 10 years. It's not Amazon, it's Domino's. I think the fast casual, the QSR, the innovation there, it's an enormous category. And I think innovation there is really exciting. Can you talk to us a little bit about your approach around what I'll call recurring revenue bundles and how you see the world of

fast casual changing? Certainly, Scott. So, firstly, I'm really flattered that you'd want to invest in Panera, and we are absolutely open to you investing as much as you like. Thanks for saying that. Well, you know, Panera has always been an innovator and a leader in fast casual. And as you know, we were number one in food transparency, number one in digital e-commerce, et cetera. And we continue to carry that torch forward in everything that we do. This healthy sense of dissatisfaction around the status quo, you know, constantly pushing ahead and looking for ideas to improve our business model. And I think you referred to the recurring revenue model. I think that's

certainly the first of its kind in the industry. We're very excited. We want to be the Netflix of coffee, as if it were. And the idea is very simple, which is premium coffee doesn't have to be very expensive. And Panera has a great premium coffee, which is an underleveraged asset. And you bring those two things together and you have this unlimited coffee program where for $8.99 a month, you can have unlimited coffee. And I think the strength of this program is manifold.

So firstly, I think in terms of just a business model, you're recovering revenues of the subscription that you get annually. On top of that, you're able to drive frequency up of your customers. We are seeing frequency gains of as much as five times basis this program. And then you have attachment on top of that. We're seeing 40% of those increased visits are having food attached to it. So it's like, I'm just going to interrupt you there. It's like Amazon, where when someone goes to Prime, they go from $600 a year to $1,500 a year. I'm curious.

So you've signed up almost a million people? Yeah, we had a million people expressing interest. And now as the time kicks in for them to start actually paying for the subscription, it is coming down, but still it is close to about $400,000 at this point in time. So, as a CEO of a company, so there are several big players in the space, and you're one of them. And pre-pandemic, it was the cost, the major cost or cap allocation was real estate, loosely what I'll call branding, both in-store and out-of-store, billboards, TV, whatever, in-store labor. I'm trying to think of the big

costs, and then innovation, and then the product itself, food, which typically is not the most expensive part. Post-pandemic, walk us through how your capital allocation is going to shift or change and why. So, I think post-pandemic, we're sort of, you know, looking at a completely new, or I would say a stronger and a different business model. And the business model is going to be more orientated towards the off-premise needs of the customer. So more geared towards off-premise convenience, and which is driven primarily by through e-commerce access, you know, and we have a very strong foundation of e-commerce. So off-premise convenience access through e-commerce. And I see actually moving forward smaller box formats with smaller amount of percent of a business being on-premise,

a larger chunk being driven off-premise and primarily unlocked through e-commerce. So can you, what is So how big is that? Your stores are now pretty big. They're like restaurants. Yeah, so our current Panera is, let's say, about 4,500 square feet. 40% of our revenue pre-pandemic would come from on-premise.

Go forward, I see that world flipping, and I see that a bigger chunk of revenue will now come increasingly from our premise. And you're looking at maybe a size going down from four and a half thousand square feet to about 3,000 square feet. So smaller box, smaller capex, even for a similar revenue, better asset turns and therefore superior returns as we go forward. Is that a trend that you saw pre-pandemic? I think pre-pandemic also we were looking at, you know, how can we make our whole business model more scalable and more

profitable? And we were working around these levers of, you know, smaller box and more efficient capital deployment. I think that whole process has just accelerated dramatically. And what percentage of your business is a digital, I mean, technically what percentage of your business is e-commerce? Touch is digital. Yeah, so I think e-commerce is about currently about 60% of our total sales. So it is up from, say, about 35% pre-pandemic to close to 60%. And I would say this is probably right up there in food retail and something that we continue to leverage extremely hard. And as you know, Scott, I think on the e-commerce, what you realize is the return on the advertising spend is at least three to four times more efficient than that of traditional media.

Because you can be so much more targeted and so much more impactful. And therefore, we're pushing a lot of our dollars in that direction as we go forward, more and more digital investment and continue to drive our e-commerce percent. And we talk a lot about income inequality and software being used to arbitrage people. Can you talk a little bit about, and generally, Niren, we've talked about a lot of things. We haven't talked about this. And we've talked about a lot of things. We haven't talked about this.

Can you talk about your labor force and how you, quite frankly, develop some of the economic security and move wages back in the right direction? Because typically, fast casual is not known for paying people very well. What is your approach, your viewpoint? Is it worth a reduction in EBITDA and shareholder value? How are you approaching giving people a living wage that work in your, in Panera's? Yeah, sure. So I think that's a great question. I really believe that at the end of the day, it first starts off with continuing to build a very strong brand, a brand that can therefore demand some sort of a premium from our customers. So it starts with the brand promise, which is very strong and

differentiated. Then your ability to execute against that brand promise consistently is very important so that you build a loyal franchise. That in turn creates a business model, which then is strong enough for you to take care of all your various stakeholders. I think our mindset is that actually it all begins with the people, our employees, our associates, and the culture that we create. And my firm belief is that if we truly love and take care of our associates as we should, which includes, you know, living wage and also beyond that, taking care of their growth and their ambitions so that they want to stay with Panera, care of their growth and their ambitions so that they want to stay with Panera. That in turn then creates more loyal customer franchise. And if that happens, that's how you actually create

sustainable shareholder value. So I see those not as conflicting levers. I see them very much aligned in the way in which we can create shareholder value. You said you referenced the number 60% e-commerce, which immediately makes me believe that all of a sudden a huge component of your CapEx, your management, your approach is supply chain between the store and the house. That all of a sudden you have not only the need for pickup, but the need for delivery. What's your approach to delivery? Do you think you outsource it to Uber Eats, which is obviously more capital light? You outsource it to Uber Eats, which is obviously more capital light. You make what must be a huge investment in vertical, and that is having your own Panera employees with their own insurance, their own decent compensation, their own cars.

What's your approach to the supply chain on the back end? I think delivery is certainly a channel which has tremendous tailwind, as we all know. So our delivery is growing at over 100% right now. So we are the, I would say probably the leader in fast casual in terms of having the largest fleet of our own drivers. We have 8,000 drivers on our own payroll. And that's how we came into the pandemic with that number. But we had around just before the pandemic also started exploring partnerships with third-party aggregators. Because the way in which we look at it is that we want to make sure that the top of the funnel is really open for our customers and they can order a Panera where they want it, when they want it, how they want it. So we have the full range of options from fully owned to fully outsourced delivery models and hybrids in between. And what we are doing, we are probably the only, I think, brand that has that full dimension and scale of fully owned and fully outsourced and hybrid solutions in between. And what that means is that for all of our over 2,000 cafes, we can customize

the right business model for that particular cafe and that trade zone, keeping into account the requirements of the customers, the ease or difficulty of hiring drivers, etc. When you think about the pandemic and how it's changed your businesses, you're not going back to the other one. How do you look at the whole food industry it's changed your businesses, you're not going back to the other one. How do you look at the whole food industry, which has been suffering, obviously, through the pandemic, among retailers, food, things like that? Is it just this is the way things are going to happen for good with less people at work, more people remote and things like that? Well, I think, you know, this is a very challenging moment in time. And I think what makes it uniquely difficult is that the health crisis is becoming a financial and a humanitarian crisis, actually, and all happening at the same time. Right.

And also the customers are changing what they want and what they expect right now dramatically, more so than ever before. So customers want more safety. Right. They want more off-premise convenience. They want e-commerce access. They want more compelling value. And they want meaningful food innovation, you know, in our category. And I think those are dramatic changes. And I think for all of the brands, I think it is a time where we have to redefine ourselves

and innovate to continue to be relevant to the customers as we emerge from the pandemic. But one of your great businesses was office workers, right? You were located a lot of... So is that gone? Do you feel like that's gone? Because I was talking to a lot of businesses and they're like, we're sticking with 65% of people

working remotely from now on. I think it's been hugely impacted. So to give you a sense... I mean permanent, permanently impacted. For the moment, to give you a sense, 10% of our total sales was coming from catering. And that has gone down by at least 60% less. This is to offices, right?

To offices, yeah. So, you know, Panera had, you know, we were the nation's largest business caterer. And, you know, you can imagine that we, you know, almost half of the business has disappeared because of what's happened. From a business perspective, my last question, this, you know, almost half of the business has disappeared because of what's happened. From a business perspective, my last question, this is airing on the day of the election. Is there a difference?

You look at a Trump win versus a Biden win in this election. What do you need as a business person, aside from lack of this ridiculous fight, you know, just the noise and everything else that is created by this very difficult and partisan election? that is created by this very difficult and partisan election? Well, I'll tell you, you know, our world and every waking moment is consumed totally on what we should be doing differently at Panera and how we can serve our customers to the best of our ability, better than anybody else, how we can take care of our associates. There is so much that we need to get right. That's where our focus is.

And I think that's what we'll continue to do. All right. Thank you so much. We really appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much. Real pleasure. Okay, Scott, we're going to go on a quick break. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact. You know what's not easy? Marketing. And when you're starting your small business, while you're so focused on the day-to-day, the personnel, and the finances, marketing is the last thing on your mind. But if customers don't know about you, the rest of it doesn't really matter. Luckily, there's Constant Contact. Constant Contact's award-winning marketing platform

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To continue, there was a story about a family whose father was so desperate for work that he loaded up his car with Diet Cokes and his diabetes medication, caught COVID, died. And his family, his heirs can no longer, cannot get workers' compensation, death benefits, which they would be able to do if Uber was forced to pay payroll taxes as employees. This is, Uber is a company that not only doesn't make money,

but it's a company that lacks empathy, but finds a quarter of a billion dollars to make sure that workers don't unionize, to make sure that they still don't make money when there's someone in the car. So I'm hoping the million dollars that's gone to the no on Prop 22 somehow fights back and finds purchase amongst California voters

who are fighting against a quarter of a billion dollars behind the yes on Prop 22. And I have a lot of confidence in California voters. They have a sense for the future. So that's my, I don't know if that's my win or my loss. And then again, I want to bring it up, the rank voting in Alaska and Maine, I think it's super important. So anyways, those are my wins and losses. What are yours? Very good. My win, I think, is the Texas Supreme Court denying all these petitions. Nice.

All of these petitions that the Republicans are seeing to suppress votes. It's going to go on for days. They tried to suppress 110,000 votes. I'm sorry to interrupt you. After it had been ruled by this governor, the attorney general, that they should be able to do this. It's just like this voter suppression thing. I interviewed another very preppy guy, Trevor Potter, another name, Trevor Potter, such a good name, about this. He's a lawyer. He works for a nonpartisan group that's trying to stop this

reformer. He worked for McCain, that gang, essentially. And it was just amazing all the different stuff around the country. And I think these lawsuits are just insane. It's just that they're doing this. It's just you can't win the real way. You do it the fake way. And so just like win by getting more votes or having a good platform or anything else. But this is, and I know I sound like I'm Jimmy Stewart and Mr. Smith goes to Washington. But honestly, this is just ridiculous.

This is just ridiculous. This idea that votes are being stolen is just such, this voter fraud thing is so fraudulent, the way they talk about it. And that's so, I thought that was a win. And I think a fail is this continued, what is the base common denominator of shitty, including attacking Dr. Fauci right in the middle of the peak of the epidemic. What a fail. What a, you know, like attacking him and saying he's going to fire him. And that's just, it's just, FYI, suburban women love Anthony Fauci. I mean, like, what are you, who are you going for there? And so I think this attack on science and, and I wish more Silicon Valley people would frigging speak up about this kind of stuff. I have not seen enough tech people

really defending science, which is adjacent to tech. And so I think that's a fail on their part, especially. I expect it from Trump. I do expect more leadership from the tech community on defense of science. So that makes sense because, or just as a footnote to our guests, the name, you know what they call suburban moms now, both CNN and Fox, what they call, they used to call them soccer moms, you know what they call them now? What? Panera moms. Seriously, they call them Panera moms. But most importantly, most importantly. I'm a Panera mom.

I'm a Panera mom. I go to Panera all the time with my children because it's healthier. I love Panera. It's healthier. Not healthy, but healthier. Many things. You can do very well there from a healthy point of view. I agree.

In any case. Scott? I agree. Should I sign us out? Are we signing out? I mean, honestly. Honestly. Yeah?

You ready? Next time we speak, it should all be over. Will it all be over? I don't know. But it should be. It's a new chapter. I hope it is. We're turning the page. We're absolutely turning the? I don't know, but it should be. It's a new chapter. We're

turning the page. We're absolutely turning the show. Let's hope there is no civil unrest. People, take a frigging breath no matter what side you're on. Try not to block people in traffic. You're an asshole when you do that. I get that you have a point of view each side, although there are not nice people on both sides. Kara, the immunities are kicking in. We are absolutely... Let us hope. We are absolutely saying no. We're going to say no to Proposition 22. We're going to say no to Republican governors

who don't want to win the vote. They want to suppress it. We are saying no to skilled sociopathy. We are saying no to people who have no respect for our government. We're going to start funding our institutions. We're saying no to an economy that lets someone be worth the GDP of Lithuania while 25% of households with children are food

insecure. We're going to say no to being the mother of all useful idiots of Russia. We're going to say no to people who want to send women back to old Spain. We're going to say no to the American arrogance masking as exceptionalism. We're going to say no to administration that will go down as loving more death, disease, and disability on America than any people on history. We're going to say no, Kara. You know what we're going to say no to? What?

We're going to say no to terrible fathers who have five children by three wives and then raise them to be expected jerks with no empathy. We're going to say no to people who mock the disabled. We're going to say no to people who believe it isn't time for a woman of color to be in the West Wing. Tomorrow night or tonight, we open a can of whoop-ass. There is nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed with what's right with America. And tonight, we are the righteous. And if they doesn't win, if Biden doesn't win, I'm not leaving America, but I'm going to move in with Alec Baldwin,

who threatened to leave America, which is even worse. Even worse. America again. This is America again, Kara. Scott, just so you know, we had a bit of a criticism this week by someone with a name we're not going to repeat. Nonetheless, we are doubling down on who we are, aren't we, Scott? Aren't we? You know what?

You know what? As you get older, you become more like yourself. And guess what? Guess what? The jungle cat and the dog are really fucking old. This is who we are. That is right. And this is who we're going to be. We're talking about our family, our neurosis, our excellent insights on business and tech and everything else. And you're just going to, you don't listen if you don't like it, my friends. That's the way it goes, right? That's right. We love you, the ones that love us. Good luck tonight, America. America, let's do this.

Let's do this. Okay, Scott, the world may be different next time we talk. So now, how are you keeping calm as results come in? As always, email us at pivot at voxmedia.com. Be a feature of the show. Tell us how you feel, how it's going. What do you think? What do you hope for for America?

How about that? What do you hope for for America? Scott, read us out. Today's episode was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Fernanda Finite engineered this episode. Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown

of all things tech and business. America, we got this. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you. Deliver that feeling to your customers every time. Klaviyo turns your customer data into real-time connections across AI-powered email, SMS, and more, making every moment count. Over 100,000 brands trust Klaviyo's unified data and marketing platform to build smarter digital relationships with their customers during Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and beyond. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM. Thank you. and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast-track growth, like Stripe Billing,

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