Pivot - Queen Elizabeth, Code 2022, and Return of the Dawg!

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Scott Galloway is back! He joins Kara at Code 2022, where they spent the week interviewing the biggest names in tech (and some presidential hopefuls) about everything from regulation to TikTok to the legacy of Steve Jobs. It was busy week: Senator Amy Klobuchar and Amazon CEO Andy Jassy make their cases for and against antitrust bills. Former Disney CEO Bob Iger may have just opened himself to a subpoena from Elon Musk. And Tim Cook had a beautifully simple solution to the phone wars. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. --- A previous version of this episode included regrettable language to describe little people, or people with dwarfism. It has been removed, and in our next episode we will read and respond to a listener e-mail on the topic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher from the Beverly Hilton at the Code Conference in Los Angeles. And today, at long last, I'm joined by the man

who puts the Scott in scot-free August, Scott Galloway. Once there was a world, a podcast, but that world had been invaded by people with more charisma. Who will save us? Who will save us from these woke people? Who will come? Who will be inappropriate? The dog. That's right.

That's right. You're welcome, Kara. That's a Superman theme song. Hello. What the heck? Superdog. Superdog. Superdog.

Who said superdog when I was a kid at commercial? Superdog. Superdog. Superdog. Who said superdog when I was a kid at commercial? Wonderdog. Wonderdog. You're Wonderdog. Go on. Because he was kind of stupid. He was a little dumb.

He was kind of dumb. He was likable though. Yes, he was a likable dumb dog. Likable dog. He was super. Scott, welcome back. Thanks, Cara. It's good to be back. I really did miss you.

I know you did. I cannot believe I admit it. Yeah. I had great co-hosts. I missed you too. I had great co-hosts. Great- you too. I had great co-hosts. Great-ish. Some were just somewhat less great than others.

Okay, fine. But they were all very good. No, they weren't. But anyways, go ahead. In any case. Some better than others. People really missed you. They missed you.

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think it was, I tried to assemble a group of people that would try to best you, but it didn't really work. George Hart came close. George Hart came close. George Hart came close. I would agree. He's my successor. Yes.

He's Bob Chapek. He's the Chapek of my Iger. That's not a good thing. Speaking of Iger, at the Code Conference, people kept calling him a thirst trap to me, which I told him, and then he had to look up thirst trap. Yeah, he's DILF, right? DILF. Yeah, he's a daddy I'd like to, what's the term?

Yeah, there you go. God, I don't like it when you use that type of language, Kara. That's right. Anyway, a lot has happened while you're away. We wanted to make sure you weren't out of the loop, so I reached out to the friend of the show, George Hahn, to help you catch up on what you missed. Let's listen.

Okay. Welcome back, Scott. George Hahn here with a quick rundown of all the news you missed during Quiet August. Robinhood, Peloton, and Snap all announced layoffs. Cox bought Axios. Amazon will buy iRobot, not a DVD of the Will Smith movie. Andreessen Horowitz backed Adam Neumann. Walmart teamed up with Paramount+. Chipotle workers in Michigan voted to unionize Game of Thrones came back to HBO kind of

The DOJ searched Mar-a-Lago Someone assaulted Salman Rushdie President Biden signed the CHIPS Act the Inflation Reduction Act and canceled some student loan debt and the New York Times ran a profile of a very handsome guy named Scott Galloway I'm George Hahn,

and this has been your August News Rundown. He's a jaunty fellow. Anyway, so today we'll talk about everything that happened at Code. There were some bold challenges to tech titans, threats from CEOs, promises from politicians, including a senator. It's been a very exciting few days. Queen Elizabeth, though, passed away today, Thursday. She was 96 years old, and her 70-year reign was the longest in British history. Fifteen prime ministers, I think, somewhere like that. One queen. Britain now enters an official mourning period that will last 12 days. The London Stock Exchange could be closed for several days. And the royal formerly known as Prince is now King Charles III. He is 73 years old. This news comes just days after the queen appointed Liz Truss as Britain's new prime minister.

She appointed her. This is maybe her 16th and then died. I really like the queen. I know you're not supposed to say you like royalty, but I find she handled herself rather beautifully over those many years and developed into a real leader. There's all kinds of leaders you can have. those many years and developed into a real leader. There's all kinds of leaders you can have. It's nothing short of remarkable, because if you think about it, if you think about monarchy as an institution, or the crown as an institution, and I think institutions matter. I think organizations or people need connective tissue in the form of

institutions. It's really the only monarchy that's kind of survived or hasn't ended up embarrassing the people who- Well, they're a little embarrassing. There's been a lot of embarrassing. Yeah, but if you think about it, I mean... Not her. Imagine a CEO overseeing... So, when she took over, the pound was at $4. The sun rose and set on a colony of Britain. It was the most powerful nation in the world up until World War II. And it's been in steady decline, and it's had a bit

of a renaissance over the last couple decades. But I always think, how do you relate something like this for young people? And I think what she kind of, at least what I take away from her monarchy is, you don't always need to respond to everything. She showed, I think, a lot of discipline and grace when she was given a hard time or when she could have weighed in to try and defend herself. Or made mistakes. Or made mistakes. But she showed tremendous resilience. She kind of has the definition of grace and also service.

Yeah. I can't imagine that at a lot of points in her life she didn't look back on the guy who abdicated and said, you know what? It would have been probably a little bit easier for me just to go hunting stags. And she took service very seriously. And the fact that she leaves after a 70-year reign on what has been a civilization that has gone through a lot and declined, it's just remarkable. Find another person, CEO, head of anything that has spent 70 years somewhere and comes out with their brand as strong or better than anywhere. I think it'll be interesting in Britain. You know, there's all these controversies around

the market and some of the family are just embarrassed themselves, especially Prince Andrew, I would say. And then the fighting, the sort of gossipy stuff around Harry and Meghan, it's kind of silly. That's silly to me. And it's just weird and gossipy. And I know the tabloids in London just rage at these things. But she has conducted herself with enormous grace. And despite all this, you can't control your kids. It's a weird fishbowl. The thing I think about all the time, I was just in London at Buckingham Palace, actually. I was showing, I have a picture of Claire in front of it with Louis and Amanda.

And one of the things I remember is when I told them the guy snuck in. Remember the guy that snuck in twice, actually, and went to her bedroom? And just hung out with her in her bedroom. He hung out with her, and she managed to just call security. But just, I was thinking, oh, my God, like in this day and age, where you worry about people like that. I don't know. I just, condolences to Britain, whatever you think of her.

Good leader, very strong leader, consistent leader. Was she in failing health? She had been. But my sense is she was fairly robust. Fairly. I think the last couple of months they've been trying to protect her. I think she got COVID. Is that right?

You know, that wasn't it. It's just she's 96 years old. Yeah. You know, she's had a very robust life hunting. But I don't know if the monarchy will survive. Yeah, that would be interesting. I'm not, you know, I'm not going to shitpost the king, but I think it takes a special type of grace and resilience. Yeah, we'll see if he can have it.

And maturity that I'm not – because here's the thing. The functional families are the ones you don't know. And no institution can predict greatness based on a bloodline. It just doesn't work that way. And so the construct is outdated. Oh, totally. And when you're under the- Including incorporation.

100%. And when you're under this kind of scrutiny and this spotlight and this 24 by, these institutions that are based on bloodline don't survive, nor should they, quite frankly. Right. But this monarchy has had more upsides than downsides. Yeah.

And it'll be interesting to see if they can maintain that, you know, if they demonstrate that type of resilience with a new figurehead. And I like Charles. He was early to climate change stuff. He's a good man. He's whiny. I think he's a good man. He's been a little tetchy. Oh, come on.

He was raised in Range Rovers and Bananis. I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. But one of the things is, it'll be interesting. And I think probably he's an interim king, really. He's quite old.

Although she lived that long. Most importantly, he's an outstanding dresser. Yes, he's an outstanding dresser. So William will come along and we'll see where it goes. In any case, condolences. I think you should move to LA and buy a Porsche and have podcasts. Yes, that's true. That would be really good.

That's for it, Sarah. You know what? Queen Elizabeth, good on you. Right would be really good. That's Prince Harry. You know what? Queen Elizabeth, good on you. Right on. Rest in peace. Rest in peace. Well done. Rest in peace.

Say hi to Diana. A lot of the tweeting is about that. Really? Yeah. It's weird. Britain's getting a little mad because America's being very cheeky about the whole thing. They're the home of cheek. I know.

No, Britain's not being cheeky. They're like, except this is our queen. Well, I know, but okay. There was a little bit of a pushback. You know what? We'll be respectful. You saw my tweet. Moves to London once. And then I put the announcement that the queen died. What did you say? I said, moves to London once. I mean, everyone's sending me messages saying, you moved to London. I'm a total narcissist. Everyone's like, you moved to London and look what happened. You're going back there now, right? You're going back. Yeah, I'm going to Vegas first to meet with friends because partying with my fraternity brothers is more important to me than my family.

But, yeah, I'll be there eventually. By the way, just so you know, I know you're excited about my move. It is super easy to move a Great Dane to London. It's super easy. No, it's not. It's super efficient and really easy to get a 150-pound dog across the Atlantic when everybody's more worried about the dog than you. And also, I just want to shout out to our immigration system and visa system. Super efficient and well-run, Cara.

Super efficient and well-run. Can I ask you a question? Are you going to come back with a Madonna accent? I know, Scottish accent. They're going to go, hello, Cara. I'm going to be wearing kilts all the time. No, I'm doing this. It's too late for my oldest, but I think if my youngest gets a Scottish accent,

he's just going to... Scottish? You're living in London. Yeah, but I'm a huge Glasgow Rangers fan. And yet, you're living in London, so British accent. But here's the thing,

when you have a Scottish... I'm going to get a Scottish accent in London. Here's the thing, when you have a Scottish accent, and I learned this from my father, when you have a Scottish accent, you can not only think with your dick,

you can listen to it. It is the, the player, the player tool. It is the ultimate weapon of a guy looking to spread his seed to the four corners of the earth. Do not do a British accent to me at all. Do not. Do not do Cockney. Hello. Cockney. Yeah. It's funny because my mom, for some reason, my mom and her sisters, my parent, my mom got pulled out of school at the age of 13 out of London somehow Somehow, because she was good at maths, she ended up at a good school. Her other sisters have what we call like a wrong side of the tracks accent. And I like that one more. I like the bad

cockney. That's probably offensive, right? Anyways, is that a hate crime in Britain? Everything you do is a hate crime in Britain. Anyway, go ahead. All right. I'm very excited for your move. I'm going to miss you, but I'll be staying in your apartment in New York. There you go. Which is fine. You leaving is great. We will still be doing Pivot, obviously, different times and stuff like that.

And we're going to be doing a lot more, actually. Yeah. So speaking of which, for me, it's ending. Let's talk about code. This is my last code. The code will continue. Yeah. It was epic.

20-year reign. Two queens. Two queens have a— This is— Okay, let's get on to bigger news. Code 20, so can I just say something first? Yes, please. Just congratulations, but I made an observation. Okay. The thing that struck me about code this year, I think you're smart, and I think it shows a lot of wisdom to leave while people are still applauding.

Because I look at this format, I mean, let's talk about who you brought. Evan Spiegel, you know, the CEO of Snap. Oh, who's the CEO of the most valuable company in the world? Tim Cook. He was here. Oh, but what about Steve Jobs? Well, his wife and Johnny Ive were here. Oh, but what about Google? Oh, the CEO was here. I mean, for what this is, the CEO of Amazon, for what this is, it just couldn't be better. But here's the thing, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way. It's always a bad thing to say. You're the tallest right now. I think this format, I think the sun has passed midday.

And I think you have really great business instincts and have decided, I'm going to ring the bell at the top and move to the next thing. Because I think this format of getting famous tech people on stage. I would agree. I think it's losing its shine. I. I think it's losing its shine. I don't think it's losing its shine. It's that, you know, after a while of yelling at essentially white guys over many years, and I don't mind doing it. I'm very good at it. I think I want to change it out into something fresh.

We're going to do some pivot stuff. And how do you rethink it? But how do you present it? And what can you show? I thought this morning when we did the climate change stuff with people you've never heard of, people were riveted. So many people came up to me. There's lots of ways to do interesting things. It doesn't have to be a panel.

I want to rethink events because I do like the community aspects of it. I had dozens. We had a lot of younger people here, if you notice. We had a program to bring in lots of young people. Someone just came up to me, a younger person, and said, I needed a push to be thinking about things, especially around the climate change stuff and different things. That was good. And I think the inspirational nature of gatherings is really important.

So I don't want to give up on gatherings. I want to give up on, I don't want to give up on this one either. It's just like, I don't want to do it. I made this cake many, many, many times and I made a really good one this time. You're leaving while people are applauding and that takes discipline. I think, I think I've been thinking about ours. I think we need Rufus DeSole and edibles. I know you do.

I know you feel that. We need some really cool music accents and edibles. Let's talk about any of this, because I designed it. I really designed it the way it is. Two of the biggest themes of the week, which came out, and one I was surprised about was what to do about TikTok and whether any of our speakers were running for president. Now, interestingly, Vanessa Pappas was supposed to come and she got sick and she couldn't come.

I don't think she would have enjoyed this. No, she wouldn't have because everyone was like, Matthias Döpfner. It's Matthias. I live in Europe. I'll help you. Thank you. Matthias Döpfner. Döpfner.

Yeah. Matthias Döpfner. Farfnugan. He's very tall. He's a very big man. And unfortunately for him, a really sort of negative article landed the minute he got on stage, the very before. But he called for the ban, the ban of TikTok. It is, of course, a tool of espionage, as you have written just a couple of weeks ago.

And I think we should just have this kind of self-respect. And that's why I concretely think tick tock should be banned in every democracy i think it's just insane not to do that coming out of this conference the headline news if there's any impact here it is that there was almost universal coagulation or um consensus that tick tock is an existential threat and should be banned and And I want to be, and I have come 180 on this. Initially, I thought, oh, it's great that Facebook or Meta has some competition. And then I saw the way my 12-year-old got addicted to this thing. And then I kind of did the math.

If you believe there is no separation between the CCP and Chinese companies, which there is not, they disappear. It's a point you made on your wonderful program. Thank you for saying that. If you believe that China has a vested interest in the decline of American civilization or at a minimum, a diminishment or diminishing our geopolitical power, then why on earth wouldn't they put their thumb on the scales of content that is more anti-American? And I believe they're doing that now. That's what I would do if I were them. I'd be like, let's take, if you're Kim Kardashian, Joe Rogan, or Jonathan Haidt, you have some content that's very pro-America and some content that's anti-America. And they can very easily, elegantly, and under the cover of dark, put their thumb on the scale of content that positions us in a negative light.

And you know what? I think it's happening. I think they're already doing it. And if you look at polls- And they hide it amongst the delightful stuff. And there's a lot of that. A lot of dancing. And then someone saying, a young person saying capitalism doesn't work. Yeah. And then a young person saying, our elections have been weaponized. Or you're the incumbent. I mean, and not only that, we give them a lot to work with. Yeah, we certainly do. A lot of it's true. But so what do you end up with?

You end up with young people who a third of them believe that socialism wouldn't be a better way to run our society. And so Trump got very little right. What he did get right, TikTok should be banned or spun to American interest. But it's an existential threat. A lot of people, you know, I was going to write Vanessa, we're going to try to get her on the podcast. It's an existential threat. A lot of people. You know, I was going to write Vanessa.

We're going to try to get her on the podcast. But definitely, someone from TikTok came up to me and they're like, we want to get away from China, essentially. Oh, I think every person at TikTok. These are Americans. Yeah, these are Americans. They see the only thing in between them and their Gulfstream and their homes in the Hamptons is the lack of a Chinese wall. I think they would love for nothing. I think they're good people. I think they would love for nothing more than to get're good people. I think they would love for nothing more

than to get some security. It's not going to happen, though. Well, if the evaluation by the U.S. government happens and they're working with Oracle now to separate stuff, there's still that still going on at post-Trump. It sort of died down when he stopped yelling and he tried to get a vague and this and that. But I think that they,

I don't know what China will do is the thing. Like, will they allow it to happen? And that, you know, are they interested in money more than they're interested in influence? And then they'll get banned. They'll get banned. I don't think they're afraid to, they put companies out of business because they decide, they play the long game. They're like, no, that doesn't work for us, Didi. Yeah. Oh, Jack Ma, you have some thoughts about the CCP. We're going to disappear your ass for a month. What I mean is it's getting banned in this country eventually. And that's that. Just some data here. People under the age of 18 are spending more time on TikTok than they spend on every streaming network combined. So parents have to ask themselves,

if Disney+, Amazon Prime, Netflix, Hulu, all of them were owned by a Chinese company and that content could be influenced by the CCP, would you be down with that? No, no, no. We don't think of it the same way. And again, it's wrapped in delight. It's interesting we're talking about TikTok because they weren't here.

But one of the things, the other thing we talked about, a lot of the stuff was about politics and where regulation is going and running for president. We had Bob Iger, as I said. Yeah, yeah. Bob Iger. Your man crush. Iger spoke about the future of streaming, moviegoing, and even answered a question from The Verge's Alex Heath with some details about Twitter bots.

Interestingly enough, because I read the news these days about it, we did look very carefully at all of the TikTok, I'm sorry, all of the Twitter users. I guess they're called users. Yes. And we, at that point, estimated, with some Twitter's help, that a substantial portion, not a majority, were not real. How many? I don't remember the number, but we discounted the value heavily. Don't remember. Okay. I don't remember.

The audience was laughing there because Bob held out his hands like he'd caught a big fish, but several people texted me today saying he's going to get subpoenaed by Elon Musk because of the things he said. He said some very detailed stuff about, which I haven't seen before, you know, about his – he almost bought Twitter. He was very close. Yeah. It was almost done. And then over a weekend, he decided not to do it. I mean, here's the thing.

It could be 80%. It doesn't legally exonerate him from closing on the contract. No, I get that. I get that. 100%. It doesn't legally exonerate him from closing on the contract. No, I get that. I get that. But I'm just saying this will be, I wonder if he'll be brought into this because we discounted the value. And then he later said that deal we had, it was pretty cheap. That was built into our economics of the deal. I think he'll make a scene of it. He's going to use it to make a scene of it and maybe subpoena Bob Iger or make a, I don't know if that will happen.

I wrote him. I'm like, maybe you're going to get subpoenaed now and have something to do because he doesn't have anything to do now except invest and things like that. But it was interesting how close, I didn't realize how close they had come to buying that company. It sounds like- And they were going to use it.

You said the deal was promos? Yes. It just needed his signature, right? They were going to use it, not as a social media network, but to distribute. They didn't have the technology, essentially to make it

an entertainment distribution network, which was a great idea, like you've talked about with CNET and things like that. Bob also said it was interesting that Twitter helped him. Of course they helped him. Iger was also bullish on Netflix. He said nothing about Discovery. He was naming things that he thought were going to survive,

and Discovery Warner was not in that list. He left them out. He thought Disney was good. He was pretty honest about Disney and the challenges they face. I thought he did a great job. Look, it's simple. There's too much investment. They've got to consolidate.

Zaslav is probably doing the right thing. He realizes he can't win this spending war. He's cutting costs. Because here's the thing about Discovery Warner. There's no set of media assets in the world that are acquirable. I mean, if you look at Warner, if you look at HBO, what would Apple pay for HBO? Could it buy? Probably not.

Yes. But these are assets that can't be – they take decades or generations to build, and it's one of the few set of media assets that could be acquired. That's why Twitter's in this world of – I don't want to call it – it's either a good thing. You'd say it's good for shareholders because the stock should be at 15 or 20, and it's not. It's at 43 because it can be acquired. There's no one who controls it. Speaking of which, Evan Spiegel, he controls the company. And that is probably bad for shareholders. He claims it is. No, it's not. It's a dual-class shareholder company. But Discovery, you can buy. You can buy.

Discovery has one class of stock because what Jeff Bukas did to John Stanky, and that is he sold him something for more than it was worth. John Stanky has now done to David Zaslav because Zaslav wants to be in Hollywood and be the man. And so he overpaid for it and he took on $55 billion in debt. Yeah, it's a lot. And so if the company ends up being worth $60 billion, it means the equity value will be $5 billion or it'll go to $3. Yeah, interesting. And so if the company ends up being worth $60 billion, it means the equity value will be $5 billion, or it'll go to $3. Yeah, interesting. And also, what was interesting, when you're talking about buyers, Apple, obviously any of the tech companies, Amazon, Apple, would want to buy this company. Who will buy it? Comcast. That's really interesting, because here's the thing,

and we've talked about this, you don't get to a quarter of a trillion dollars in market capitalization in Philadelphia without killing people and being smart. They're both. Those guys come to play. They're smart. They have amazing assets. They have vertical distribution, whether it's Sky in the UK, whether it's Comcast here. So to get that kind of verticalization around content, they've got to do something. I don't know if it's buying real food.

Bob actually said that. They said cable companies got to get out of the cable business. Not the internet business, the cable business. And they got to push back. And so if this thing becomes cheap enough, and the thing is, they may not even need to go hostile. They might just buy a ton of the debt, a ton of the equity, and just sit around and say, all right, let us know when you're ready. They have to spin off CNN, probably. Well, I think they would with CNN. I think the way, the good bank, bad bank here would probably be Warner and HBO because there's some synergy there around movie releases and those franchises and Lucasfilm and Marvel.

And then you would spin the cable assets. Not Marvel. Marvel's Disney. I'm sorry. Who is it? Warner. Warner has DC Comics. Is it DC? I could give a shit. Not Marvel. Marvel's Disney. I'm sorry. Who is it? Warner. Warner has DC Comics. Is it DC? I could give a shit. Mennentites. Right.

Mennentites. So same, same, same. And then what you would have is then you would, the bad bank would be the cable assets that are still very profitable, but in decline. And it would trade at a lower EBITDA, but you would spend that into kind of good bank, bad bank, and hopefully get a higher multiple. And there's the internet assets. Where do you put those? Yeah, I think they'd... Connectivity. They just would, that would probably go with the cable. Who knows?

At this price point, there's probably enough money in private equity that some private equity partner could convince himself into coming in and taking a private and then splitting it up. Yeah. Interesting. Something's going to happen there. It's stock, cutting costs isn't enough. Yeah. Something's going to happen there. It's stock. Cutting costs isn't enough. Yeah. So I think that, I think something, I mean, we've said that something's going to happen in the next, in the next 12 months. And Disney Plus has done a great job. I love, have you, by the way, have you seen House of Dragon? No. It's really good. I don't want to see it. It's really, it's really violent. Dismemberment and pointless sex. The opening scene is really,

pointless sex? That's an oxymoron Bob was very interesting I think he's a really smart guy I wanted to bring him in here we did ask Bob Chapik to come but Bob Iger's

one of these people who has a real perspective and now he can really talk and around leadership around lots of things and mistakes I thought he was

very reflective and excellent he was a great interview and he looked fantastic he really did he's a handsome man he's a handsome man I like his new outfit

can you imagine if he had a Scottish accent? Oh, my God. He doesn't need one. He'd slay it. Thirst trap. Bob, look it up. There you go.

Okay, one company that's not quite on top of its game, but still is innovative. Snap. We sat down with CEO Evan Spiegel, Scott and I did, for a conversation about competition, TikTok, and the future of his company. Scott had a number of pointed questions. I was the good cop in this one. I'm usually the bad cop. Let's listen to one.

I listened to your earnings call last night. You didn't say anything. How is your board not letting you speak on earnings calls? Why aren't you speaking? Isn't this exactly the time where CEOs should be speaking directly to investors? That was a huge mistake that I shouldn't have made. To be honest with you, I wasn't even thinking about it. Obviously, I'm on the call. I be honest with you, I wasn't even thinking about it. I was obviously, I'm on the call. I'm waiting for a question. No one asked a question addressed to me.

There wasn't planned. You just felt like there were other people. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it wasn't planned. I was waiting. I actually kind of expected a question, kind of given everything going on.

But I'd also come in person in May to pre-announce that we were going to miss the bottom end of our guidance to a big investor conference, answered a bunch of investor questions there in person. So like, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm not engaged with investors because I spend quite a lot of time answering their questions and really helping them understand. So Evan, I thought did very well, even though tough questions, he's in a, you know, they laid people off. There's all kinds of problems he had. But I thought he was super articulate about his things and facing issues. What did you think of his session? You were pointing out to something very clear. He should talk on the call, for one, but he's facing

a lot of headwinds. Well, his people reached out and said he wants to have a conversation with you. And I initially said no, because I know what happens. I meet these people, and they're all very likable. Not all of them. Well, most of the ones I talk to, I like. And so I don't like to talk to them. And anyways, but I had a brief conversation with them. But there's something that really scares me. And that is there's a very dangerous calculus or alchemy in our society. And that is young men who have not experienced a lot or have not experienced a lot of hardship,

you know, maybe went to Harvard or maybe went to Stanford. And then they figure out a way to have total control of their company so they don't have to listen to anybody. Which you discussed. And they have a media company that has influence over hundreds of millions of people. And it hasn't gone good places. So a young man who's known nothing but privilege, who has unfettered power over society and content. He does not. It's a small company. I think the best thing for us would have been if Facebook had never really, had only reached the heights of Snap.

You're right. So you made that point. You'd rather your son use Snap. I think he's a more, I think he's less of a mendacious fuck than either Mark or Cheryl. I think he's, he's, he strikes me as just more thoughtful. And also, it's more of a

communications medium than an espionage. It is. It's a very thoughtful product. And it's innovation, and it's more fun. But there's just no getting around it. Young men who come from privilege, who have total control and no guardrails, no one can tell him what to do. You sound like someone you do a podcast with, but go ahead. Keep going. I like that I've infected you. These are the most dangerous people in the world. And so I hope that he continues to reflect and be a thoughtful young man, which he strikes me as. But I think a lot of people would have said the same thing about Mark Zuckerberg. Not as much.

There was more signals, and you raised some of those, you raised some of those red flags early on with conversations with him. But I don't like the idea. Young men need guardrails. Those Japanese soldiers that retreated into the hills of the Philippine islands, they accomplished nothing except occasionally terrorizing the village without guardrails, without a board that can fire you. I would agree with this. In this case, I think he's handled himself rather well. I agree, so far.

I don't think he has that much influence because I don't think it's that big a company. It just isn't. And I think the reason it's not that big a company is very like, remember how small Apple was until it wasn't, because he focuses on quality of product, a really good experience. He's not willing to do the things Mark Zuckerberg was willing to do that he didn't do. That said, and he's very innovative, and Facebook has copied every one of his good ideas, trying to put him out of it. They tried to buy him, and when he wouldn't sell, they tried to kill him, essentially, by subsuming all his stuff. But here's what I thought he did

well, is that he's been in trouble like this before when they were, and I do think he's got a bigger market. He talked about it a little bit, that they've cut back like on the Pixie, all kinds of stuff. I think he has a bigger market than you realize because I think people are weary

of the Facebook experience. And my kids have not left that product, have not used it. They do not leave it. It's a utility to them. And I don't think they, the AR stuff is interesting. I think lots of people use those filters and it's fun. It's a fun way to communicate in most cases. They've made some errors in some of the filters, but usually around race. But I think he's got, he's right. He's got a good little business there

if he does it right. And he did cut back. And I'm probably sad about cutting back some of his very creative things because he's a very creative thinker. The problem I have is that control, that control. That's my problem. Otherwise, I think he's a very good entrepreneur and has made a beautiful product. Power corrupts. Yes. And you talked about it. You're right.

It doesn't have two and a half or three billion like Meta. It has a half a billion. But it's not the number of people, the amount of influence. It's who it has influence over. Because I don't know about you. I found out my 14-year-old had been on Snap for a year, and I didn't even know it. Oh, I knew. I know.

Oh, I'm an absent, you know, I'm a bad parent. But I don't like the idea. I just don't like the idea of a young man with no guardrails deciding how young people communicate with each other. That's a fair point. You know, I like Snapchat. I found my son. It's cute. He snuck out of my house.

The maps they put in? Yeah, yeah. Louie's not very sharp. She's not the sharpest technological tech in the box. I love that. He's got the wrong mom if he's trying to pull one over on social media. It's a longer story, but Alex tried to turn on Zono's music player in his room and then came in and said he's not here. And so he and I used Snapchat Maps to find where Louie is.

He'd gone up to make out with a girl. He was like 15 years old. You didn't promote that. You're that kind of mom. No, I'm not promoting that. It was 2 in the morning. When I used to come home from college. 2 in the morning.

15. Because I never got laid. My mom would put firewood in the fireplace. Like, Jesus Christ, man, go get them. No. She was like, Christ. No, 15 used my Uber and 2 in the morning. No, he's not allowed to do that. No.

15, 2 in the morning. That's a little young. Yeah. So I found him on Snap Maps, of all things. And I knew where he was. And I said, get your ass home. You're the CCP. I know.

You're tracking people with maps. And I said, you're in blah, blah, blah. Get your ass home. Did you use face recognition to find the girl and start calling her parents? No, no. Stay away from my son. In any case. The militia Etheridge are coming for your ass.

No, I found him on Snap Maps. And he didn't even, like, he didn't even. And he wrote me a text. I'll never forget. I saved it. I took a picture. He goes, sometime it's going to be like that, chief. Yeah, it's coming.

That's what he wrote me. I love that. And I was like, oh, he's so funny. Anyway, last thing, he talked about whether or not he'd sell the company. He did not answer. Yeah. What do you think of what he did?

I don't know what he did. Did he answer? Did he not answer? No, I'll give him this. He gave an impassioned reason for the amount of value they'll sell. But here's the thing. The right answer would be, in my view-

Apple is coming next on the stage. Well, look, if you look at Twitter, Pinterest, Snap, the bottom line is they've all been kind of 10-year fun, cute experiments in the fact that they can't compete with these monopolies of Meta and Google. I mean, occasionally we talk about their innovation. It only gets so big. But they always break our hearts. And that is they go up. We talk ourselves into believing they're going to be able to carve out a niche. And then they freaking collapse.

And that's what's going to happen to Twitter if it doesn't get acquired. Yep, yep, yep. And these companies should be part of larger organizations, whether it's Comcast. All right, for instance, Snap, who should it go to? Apple. I would say, actually, I would think Disney would be interesting for Snap. Oh, Snap. It's joyous.

It's nice. It's the same distribution they could have had with Twitter without all the fucking garbage. They not need it. Yeah, Snap. Okay, good. Young people. Yeah, right. Okay, what about Twitter?

If it doesn't, Elon thing. I think Twitter is so damaged goods right now. Twitter needs a, I mean, we talked about it. Twitter just needs to totally reconstruct its business model and move to subscription. You should buy it. Well, here's the thing. Subscription works. Like we were talking about HBO.

It works when you have a superior product. HBO, for the majority of its life, had a superior product versus, you know, the A-team or ABC's, you know, Wednesday movie of the week, whatever it was. And it appealed to a narrower audience and wanted high-quality TV where they could watch violence and sex. It's wrapped in fantastic storytelling. And people are willing to pay for that. And Twitter has a small group, and they're lying about how small it is. It's much smaller than they've advertised. But people would pay for it because it's a small committee.

You and I are addicted to it. We pay for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they need a total rethink about their business model. I don't know what's a small commit. You and I are addicted to it. We pay for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they need a total rethink about their business model. I don't know what's going to happen. Actually, I know what's going to happen the next couple weeks with them. But if anything, the Chancery Court is going to say you're all wet. I think maybe his lawyer sat down with him the week before.

I think they're already in discussions and said you're going to lose. And they're like, boss, you're going to lose. And he doesn't want to lose that publicly. So I think they're probably already in conversations around what the fee is for him to go away. Then what happens? Yeah, we'll see. That's the correct question. Because even if they give, even if he pays them $10 billion, which is 12 bucks a share, Twitter hasn't demonstrated an ability to do great things with capital so far. What happens to the stock? Because it should be at 20 bucks, which means it should be trading about $15 billion less than now.

So that's when you and I move in. That's when we come in. That's when we come in. That's when we come in. Let's get some bankers. There we go. Okay. Scott, really briefly,

you asked Evan Spiegel a question about being a parent, a man really in this society. Do you have any advice for young fathers in terms of trying to balance the push and the pull of having that kind of scrutiny and that kind of pressure and also trying to manage a household with three kids and be a good partner?

Oh, gosh. I knew he was going to ask a man question, but go ahead. I mean, it's just so, so I struggle with it every day. I mean, you know, just before going on stage, I'm thinking about, you know, I'm hosting a dinner after this. I'm thinking about, do I have 30 minutes in between the time I get off stage? You know, 15 minutes to drive home, 15 minutes to read to Hart, who's our four, you know, four and a half year old, before I have to go to this dinner so that I can have that, you know, precious time together. It's all consuming. I think this is, as parents,

what all of us struggle with all the time. I think that there's a lot of warranted attention around the fact that women are expected to be these multidimensional super women. And if they have careers, inevitably, if they're on a panel, the first thing that's asked is how do you manage balance? And I don't think what gets a lot of attention is that I think men feel, or a lot of men, most men and a lot of women, have this internal conflict in that a society has told me, and it's a more and more competitive society, I need to be a baller professionally. That's my job. My job is to go out and hunt the mastodon and bring home the meat. And if I haven't done that, I've failed as a man. At the same time, in this competitive society, to do that, you basically

have to work all the fucking time. I've just never, I have never- He said that. He said, I didn't see my kids. I have never bought kids. I've never, I think balance is a myth. I did not see my kids the first five years of their life because I'm like, I got to make more money. And it was just that clear. And I don't, I'm not talented enough to make a lot of money without working my ass off. I have not been able to figure that out. And at the same time, it's very upsetting.

Men have some of those same paternal like conflicted emotions, like, fuck, I'm not being a good dad. I'm not being a good partner. But at the same time, I've really failed on a cosmic level if I can't maintain the economic security of my household. And him, it's a little bit different because he's had economic security from a young age but he has the same you're laying off 2 000 people and the comps people are like we got to talk about this and we got to think this through and it's like well you know it's bedtime or it's bath time it's like i'm sorry i can't be there i got i got a lot of people depending on me. And this tension and this, it's present for women, and it's also present for men. Yeah, it was a good moment. I really liked it. Also, Pete Buttigieg talked about it. He was negotiating that infrastructure stuff when he was in the hospital as one of his, his kids were

quite sick. And so that was, he talked about fatherhood. Of course, his is under siege in a very different way across the country. It was, I thought that was really good. It was a great moment. It was a great question, Scott. I never would have asked it, and I'm glad you did. Thank you. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the dueling answers from Senator Klobuchar and the CEO of Amazon, and we'll play Tim Cook's Big Win.

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Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back with more from Code, another big theme this week, antitrust legislation and competition. Senator Klobuchar, Amy Klobuchar, joined us early on Tuesday to talk about the state of her big tech antitrust bill. Here's what she said. Do you go talk to them or what do you, does it have to be an all-out? We continue to talk to them.

We have made so many changes to the bills that have been in response to concerns that they have raised. At some point, we know that, for instance, just one example, the news organization bill, you know, when they claim that that is somehow going to break the Internet, well, they've been doing it in the land down under, and it hasn't brought the Internet under, basically, in Australia. So we know that we have examples in other countries where some of this stuff is going on. And as time goes on, that's going to become increasingly clear.

So we continue to talk to them. But the truth is you can't wait and be basically you're becoming a patsy if you just sit there and wait for them to decide they suddenly like this bill. Because they don't want to see any bills passed, unfortunately. All right. She was good. That was a good interview with her. She's a politician, so she talks. Look, my observation is, look who you had here. Representative Khanna, Governor Newsom, Mayor Pete, Senator Klobuchar. Who else do we have that's here because they're running for president? I mean, they're all running for president. Oh, and Mark Cuban, you literally have, I think they're all

running for president. I'm cynical. And that is, I think this cost plus, Mark Cuban cost plus drugs. Yes, that's what I said. It's a book. It's like a book. It's a great thing. I think he's a good man. I think it'll be great. I think it's, quite frankly, in the back of his mind is he's thinking it's a great platform to raise awareness, to be drafted as a presidential candidate. I think they all wake up in the morning and say, hello, Madam President. Yes, I think you say that. What did you think? Is the bill going to get passed? Did Big Tick win this round? I suspect. It feels like it's already being watered down. You know, I said fat chance about this bill, this Inflation Reduction Act and the infrastructure bill, so I'm not going to go. I don't know. Someone pointed that out to me.

I think here's what it gets through. A Buttigieg pointed that out to me. It gets through, and it'll be so watered down it has to be almost meaningless. It just won't. It's just death by a thousand cuts. Okay. And then all the big tech executives, including Cinder, get up and say, act as if they're, like, open to it and they want to be regulated. And they have an army of lawyers and politicians that they have paid off.

That is their job. That's the way the system works. So at this point. Yeah, I don't. Look, I'm sort of, I don't know if the term is bereft or resigned, but at least Senator Klobuchar is fighting the good fight. She's not afraid of them. I think she's very pragmatic. I think she's an impressive woman. They were trying to make the case that it was overly broad, including Andy Jassy, one person who has been very active. And as opposed to Jeff, Andy goes to Washington and talks to people.

He's the CEO of Amazon, obviously. Here's what he said. There is such a crazy us versus them mentality in this country right now everywhere, including in how government is thinking about some of these larger companies. There aren't many, if any, big issues that have ever been solved by scapegoating or demonizing a group of people. And that's kind of what's happening right now. And I actually think that we have a much better chance of solving an issue that we may want to regulate and in a way that doesn't unintentionally hurt consumers or small and medium-sized businesses if the private and public sector work together and collaborate on that. And that has not been something that groups

are willing to do so far. The tech industry has put $95 million in ads. I've seen so many ads that Amy Klobuchar's breaking the internet. I don't believe she's breaking the internet. You all play tough, too, if they're playing tough on the same way. We've been very clear for many months, and we've shared this with everybody, including the senator, that we, let's figure out what we want to regulate. If you want to actually stop censorship of data, write a bill about that. If you want to change the way data privacy is conducted, write a bill about that. He makes it seem so easy. He gets to do whatever he wants. They don't. Let's all work together, which means put more fucking espresso pods in the box. Don't go to the bathroom. Here's diapers, bitch.

Oh, Andy, isn't he lovely? He's so, let's work together. I know, that was just a genuine I know that was a genuine. Because they're really put into this. She made a joke about that, said her, she told, her husband told her daughter, don't be mean to mom today.

She's got four of the biggest companies in the world trying to get her and Russia disband her because she had been in the Ukraine. And so, you know, she's definitely—I think she said she had three lawyers and they had 2,800. I'm sure that's an exaggeration on her part. But she's right.

She's outmatched in terms of—this is a very powerful senator, but she's outmatched. The thing—something very interesting and somewhat related happened with Amazon, And I think it's cogent or highlights the issue here. The majority of the big tech people you talk to, especially the CEO of Google, who is you know, the seventh ring of hell. So he's essentially when you push him on a hard issue, like what are you going to do about privacy or this thing? A lot of thoughtful, you know, these are complex problems, Kara, but we're open to talking to people. No, they're not. They're opening to pretend to listen. We're open to legislation. No, they're not. We're going to release the hounds and start giving money to anybody who gets in the way of this. And here's the thing that's so sad about it. It's what I call the illusion of complexity. These are complex problems. Well, this is how complex the problem was for Amazon. Amazon experienced with their new Lord

of the Rings, they got critic bombed. And that is bad actors do what occasionally they do to you and me on Twitter. And that is a bunch of people, fake actors, showed up and started trashing it. And you don't know who's behind it or why. So what did Amazon do? They took it down, they implemented AI and identity, and they figured it out in like 48 hours. And they put it back up, and there's veracity around those reviews. So Amazon figured it out in 40 hours. But Sundar's like, it's too complex a problem. We can't figure it out. That was the joke I had, is that when they talk about the smartest people ever, they act like smart. And whenever there's something difficult. They're flummoxed.

Election misinformation is a big, big problem. Oh, we kick off one account and 60% of it goes away. Yeah. So this. I don't say it's easy. You know, Alex Samuels, who I really do trust. It's easier than they would claim. That is correct.

It's about incentives, not about complexity. It moves and morphs all the time. And it's a nuisance to them in a lot easy and it moves and morphs all the time. And it's a nuisance to them in a lot of ways and a profit-sucking nuisance. They have a profit motive in creating the illusion of complexity around this. I think these problems are solvable. We're not talking about the realm of the possible. We're talking about the realm of the profitable.

Well, what's interesting is Jassy's not going down with a fight and neither is she. So we'll see who prevails there. And she may pull it out. She may get the votes. I feel like she would, like, break people's arms. Well, it's fairly bi—the thing about this that's on her side is it's a bipartisan issue. Sort of. Everybody hates big tech, but for different reasons. But they all share a disdain for these companies.

And public sentiment has turned on them. So we'll see. Only issue is nobody really cares about tech legislation compared to many other legislations. So that's all. It's not the high. That's what's benefited tech is that people are like, oh, I like my maps. I'm not that mad at them. I think they have a harder time passing tech legislation than you do, say, pharma, insulin prices that can enrage people. We'll see. Another issue that Jassy talked about, he seemed, as usual, combative on labor unions. He said the Staten Island vote had disturbing

irregularities and hinted at a prolonged battle. Interestingly, Christian Smalls came later. He happened to be in LA and he called and said, can I come? And it was too late for him to ask Jassy a question, which would have been irritating to Jassy, I'm sure. But, you know, Jassy's not the only one with union problems. And you talked about this in your presentation. Unions have become the perfect enemy for corporations because they're ineffective. 46 of the 47 countries that have organized labor around the world have seen a massive decline. They've been cut in half in terms of membership. If it was a business, it would have been put out of business. And here's the thing. I'm a huge fan of unions, but they need to be organized.

They need to be less corrupt. And they need to be totally focused on the well-being of their workers. Look, I think almost every union is not effective. I think that there should be one union, and it should be the federal government. And I think they should demand minimum wage. If minimum wage had just kept pace with productivity the last 50 years, it would be 23 bucks a share. And here's what the great uncoupling was. In the early 70s, up until the 70s, productivity and wages largely were inextricably linked. And that is everybody got to share. Our society, government, workers got to share in the increases in productivity that we have registered. We're going to be more productive in one month this year than we were in an entire year in 1950. But in 1970, something happened.

I don't know if it was Milton Friedman or Jack Welch or shareholder activism. All of a sudden, everything was optimized for shareholder value. And they found a lot of surplus compensation in workers. They found out workers are willing to work for less. And so they stopped raising their wages, and there was no minimum wage, and minimum wages exploded from $7.25 to $7.25 in 13 years. Yeah, he just noted this, but then he was as if he's like, well, we're paying $18. I'm like, you're still not paying enough. That's not the comparison. $7.25 is obscene, is obscene. Well, I just don't get it. There should be one union. Why wouldn't we have, okay, minimum wage, 25 bucks an hour, federal minimum wage. And here's

the thing. You said the union is the government. The union is the government. It's the best union in the world. It's the most noble. It's the most concerned. It's not corrupt. You won't find them on their boats. Anyways, I think teachers unions have lost a lot of credibility. But anyways, 25 bucks a share. And let's be clear, the market would go down and it'd be worth it. Stocks would go down and it'd be worth it. Productivity would go up. Bring dignity back to work.

Et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, we'll see. He's going to really, I think he's going to win on these issues, unfortunately. They've only got one and that's, and they're,

he kept saying irregularities in Stan. It was funny. Ah, whatever. Anyway, we'll see where it goes. He says he can take care of them better than the unions can. And in many ways.

He might be right on that. Yes. And that they can also not take care of them. There's no leverage for workers in that relationship. And they will continue to have no leverage. He's like, they can go. I'm like, can't they? They're disorganized.

And I love the media. Like a Starbucks in Wausau, Wisconsin unionizes and everyone's talking about the return of unions. Yeah. This is the ultimate dead cat bounce. There'll be some very well-publicized stories of the rejuvenation of unions and they will resume their structural decline. Yeah.

The government needs to move in here and restore dignity to work full stop. Another pair of code attendees found themselves at opposite sides of the issue, Tim Cook and an audience member. Let's play a clip from the audience Q&A. Not to make it personal, but I can't send my mom certain videos or she can't send me certain videos. And so we leave-

Buy your mom an iPhone. So that was great. Tim, we talked primarily about Steve Jobs. There were some great questions. Of course, he had flown in from the event, the iPhone 14 event and whatever, all the announcements they made, which was great of him to do that.

I appreciated that. I'm not sure if he had a choice, but there he is. He came and did a good job, actually. They're perfect. They represent, the reason I have an iPhone is that I think it makes me more attractive, and the three of them are more attractive than any three Android executives you've put on stage. But one of the things that was interesting about that, it was primarily, I kind of wanted to keep it to Steve Jobs and the legacy and also the impact. I didn't

want to talk about the next iPhone. I don't care. I mean, I do, but I don't. And so it was an interesting reflection for them. I'm not sure it would work, but I think it really did. People found it very moving, I think, in a lot of ways. It worked better than I thought it was going to. Yeah, it was very thoughtful. It was people just thinking out loud about ideas. I thought Johnny Ive was tremendous. You really got a sense of why he was who he was, his impact on Apple. And I thought Lorene had some really amazing.

And you got different versions of Steve Jobs. And they didn't hesitate to talk about more difficult parts. But from today's perspective, he seems less, you know, just venal than lots of people. But all three of them are, I was really intimidated. We were on the stage with Evan, and I got off, and I saw all three of them just sitting there in line, and they all made eye contact with me because I was getting off. And I was too intimidated to introduce myself. You know, I wanted to, I want to know them. Yeah, I know. Easy for you to say. But I was too intimidated to introduce myself.

And I regret that. Anyways, of course, back to me. Yeah, it was really interesting. I thought it worked. It was very thoughtful. And I think they even found it hard. We had a conversation before. And I, you know, it required them to think a little bit about legacy and things like that.

So I thought that was very genuine. And I think that's what I liked about it is that they had very genuine. It's very hard to be canned actually. And I think they had reflections that were really important about care of duty, of care of creation. I think Johnny talked about this a lot, carelessness in design.

I think they talked a lot about ideas and the need for ideas. And one of the things, I do believe when he died, everything shifted. I just do. Listen, he was not perfect, and he was at all kinds of warts all over him. He didn't. But he definitely represented a passion for excellence that I think has carried on at Apple.

You don't really go, this is a shoddy product on anything you get from them. You may not like something, and they may not do something. Well, we talked about Ping, for example, a social network. But I thought that they talked about the idea of passion, excellence, and the marriage of art and commerce in a way that we forget everything. I feel like everyone sort of took the wrong lessons from Steve Jobs away. And I think they did articulate that he would not like the present moment, especially politically, jobs away. And I think they did articulate that he would not like the present moment, like especially politically, but also lack of privacy. He talked a lot about privacy.

And Lorene was very clear that he would be very outspoken now, and not on Twitter, but just outspoken. I agree with her. I think that's the case. This is a tough one for me, because I think that, and there's some good, but there's bad to this. When societies become wealthier, more educated, their reliance on a super being or church attendance goes down. And so they try and fill that void with other super beings. And I think it's been somewhat unfortunate, but the closest thing we have to a religion is technology. And you can understand it. It's mystical. I don't know how my iPhone works. It can do amazing things. And I think Steve Jobs has become the Jesus Christ of this information economy. And I think it's set off, not through any fault of his own, but it's

set off because of a variety of societal factors, the idolatry of money, the idolatry of innovators, the mysticism around technology. Because the people that could develop on the platform, meaning? We have decided that these are the new clergy, the new gods. He was the only one at the time. The new idols. Well, now Elon's taken that model. They just live by a different set of standards, and it's bad for society. Yeah, I would agree.

One of the things Tim said, we didn't design this so people would do the scrolling. I mean, you know what I mean? I think every interview I do with him, he talks about that. And I think the most famous one is when I asked him what he would do if he was in Mark Zuckerberg's situation when there was all that stuff going on at Cambridge Analytica and all the misinformation stuff. And he's really loathe to insult. And he goes, and I've never seen him maybe once or twice do it. And he said, and Jobs liked insult. So it was a very different personality.

And he said, I never would have been in that situation. I love Tim Cook because I think Tim Cook demonstrates a lot more grace than the majority of executives in big tech. He doesn't make it about him. He doesn't take the opportunity. I don't think I've ever really seen him shitpost anyone. That's the closest. I wouldn't have been in this position. It's the closest I've ever seen him to criticize anybody.

I would agree. I would agree. I like the fact that he comes from a background that probably wasn't easy for him to advance in the corporate world earlier in his career. It's also his personality. But he doesn't make it an issue. I think people know about it. He's an adult. It's called an adult. One time, I saw him raise his eyebrows once about Travis Kalanick, and I was like, oh, dear, he doesn't like him. And what people, you pointed this out, but okay, everyone talks about Steve Jobs, unbelievable. When Steve Jobs died, Apple had a $300 billion market cap. That's right.

It's now $2.5 trillion. There isn't an individual alive, there isn't an individual anywhere in the history that has added more shareholder value than Tim Cook. Agreed. I argued that with two people here. I was like, have you noticed? It's not about the money. I said, they have lots of innovative products. Give me a break. AirPods, all kinds of stuff. AirPods, if they were on their own business, would be a Fortune 200 company. And sometimes the watch is really interesting.

And the iPhone is the most profitable product in history because of some of the innovation he's brought. And shareholder value matters. A lot of people can retire sooner. A lot of people can take care of their parents. A lot of people can buy nice homes. They also people can take care of their parents. A lot of people can buy nice homes. They also haven't done it by privacy violations over and over again. Yeah, they haven't fucked up democracy. They have issues in China.

They got to get out of China in a lot of ways. That's going to be the almost perfect company in that regard. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails of Code. wins and fails of code. Okay, Scott, let's do some wins and fails of code. What's your favorite or least favorite moment of the week? I'll give you what I thought was the most insightful moment.

Okay, that's fine. And this is a prediction, and I know we don't do predictions on today, but I think I understand men my age. And the thing I love about these moments that you put together is occasionally there's an unscripted moment and you see something. When Sundar Pichai was asked about Twitter, he was just like, God, don't get keep me away from that septic tank. Yeah.

And then someone asked about Pinterest, and there was a weird pause. What about something like Pinterest? Look, man, I can't comment on any M&A deal. I think so, but you're very good at asking the question. That's what they say. Google is speaking to Pinterest. I would agree. And I just like, I get men, and I don't know if you... I saw it. It's like, okay, something's going on here. That's right. I think I said something.

And that's the wonderful thing about getting people together. Mm-hmm. Can't lie. He's not a very good poker player, that Sundar. Well, I just, that moment, I looked around to see if anyone else, and I immediately sent a message to my friend. I'm like, Pinterest is in play from Google. Yeah. And maybe I get, you know, your gut... No, I think you're right. I think you read it exactly right. Your gut may be wrong, but I'm like, Pinterest is in play from Google. And maybe I get, you know, your gut.

I think you're right. I think you read it exactly right. Your gut may be wrong, but I'm like, oh, wait. Oh, wait. Something's going on here. Indeed. They'd have to look at Pinterest. They have to look at it.

It's a perfect fit with Google. It's information. It's all kinds of stuff. It adds a lot of really good technology. Commerce. They could do all kinds of stuff with it. And they've failed in commerce. They've failed again and again.

It's sort of a human search engine a little bit. Yep, exactly. I think you're right. I think that's good. All right, what's something you didn't like? There was nothing I really, I wouldn't say I didn't like. I mean, I find all these people who just are fascinated by tech claiming they're not running for, I would love somebody to say. I would, I think, and I think it'd be smart. I think if Senator Klobuchar or Mayor Pete or Secretary Buttigieg said, you know what? I'm an ambitious woman. I think it'd be smart. I think if Senator Klobuchar or Mayor Pete or Secretary Buttigieg said, you know what? I'm an ambitious woman. I'd like to be president. I have a vision for the country. Well, Hillary Clinton did that. It didn't work for her.

Well, and they might say, it's not my time because we've got a good president and I'm going to fight for him should he decide to run again. But yeah, I'd love to be president and just leave it there. Instead, like, no, I got my ass on Delta to come out to this conference to just say I'm not running for president over and over, but meanwhile be in front of a bunch of important tech people. I just find it like, come on, enough already. Come on, you're out in your car making out, I have snap maps or whatever the fuck it is. It's just like, come on. So that, I just, a lot of eye rolling. Yeah.

I mean, either all of these people who are supposedly the most likely people to run for president seem to love you and come to code. Yeah. And I think that's part of that. Yeah, that's because I'm going to try. I'm betting on bets all over the map so I can get to the White House so I can hang out there. There you go. Just hang out. I don't want to do anything but go in that weird window.

You promised me a weekend in the Lincoln bedroom. I know. You and I together. That's right. 100%. We're going to do it. We're going to do it. We're going to sully the place, though.

100%. We're going to sully it. We're going to trump it up. I like it. I'm sure he sullied it already. So anyway, my favorite moment? I think all of it. It was really good.

I felt really good as a whole. I really liked doing the climate stuff. I thought it was great. I thought John Doerr was quite good. I like, there wasn't a, someone said, what's your favorite piece? I don't have one. I don't have one. I thought they were all excellent. John Doerr just reeks of class. I thought it was great. I thought John Doerr was quite good. I like, there wasn't a, someone said, what's your favorite piece? I don't have one. I don't have one. I thought they were all excellent.

John Doerr just reeks of class. I know. I think they all brought it from Mark Cuban to the very last one. They all brought it and by the way, they didn't have to

and they did and they were, I thought they were, nobody was fake, very little talking pointy. It was, they were really good interviews. All the people who did other,

like yourself and Preet Bharara did a great job. I thought the food was amazing. The, like yourself and Preet Bharara did a great job. I thought the food was amazing. Food was good, yeah. Staff did a beautiful job. The signage. And I loved the last day of climate change stuff.

I thought they were great. Everybody stuck around. We always had a problem with that. I think I loved those panels. I loved the strawberries from Oishi and the Nova meat. And there wasn't a thing I didn't like about it, I have to say. That's my win. My win is this conference in your 20 years. And I think there's something

bigger here. Like you, for the last 20, when you started this 20 years ago, it was a different world. And your background and the fact that you kind of, what I'll say, live out loud. I think that this conference gave you, I think you're the first person to kind of pull this off for 20 years. Klaus Schwab has kind of done it with the World Economic Forum, but that's got a different flavor. And I just really, I love the fact and I respect the fact that you're going out while everyone is applauding. You're pulling the plug on it while it's still the number one rated show. So I think that takes a lot of discipline. I have something else to do. Yeah, but most people can't give up the temptation.

Really? Most people, they have their show canceled. I got other things to do. I have a new podcast coming. We debut. Just take the fucking compliment. I will. Fine.

Okay, good. Thank you so much. I can't believe it. I'm smart. I am. Do you have a fail? No. That's my win.

My fail. It's not really a fail. I think that your leaders, I think the Queen has been such a pillar of grace. I mean, if you were to try and embody what's wonderful about Britain, a lot of it would be Britain, you know, they believe in the rule of fair play. They're gentle, gentle men and gentle women. That's what they think. Well, go ahead. Well, I think she demonstrates, she has consistently reinforced a civil civilization. She has. And I think she's always, you know, just tremendous service to her country. Non-divisive. So it's got to be a moment for whatever it is, the 65 million citizens, where they really

collectively mourn someone who everyone kind of feels a little bit that she was their sister, then their mother, then their grandmother. So I think that's, I don't know if we call it a fail, I guess it's a win, but it's a nice moment when Britain, you know, monarchy is in that whole situation, it's man-made. That institution was invented by them. And it's a nice moment for them to reflect on not only her, but the- Disability. Yeah, it's just- I agree. It does demonstrate grace. And doubling with code, one of the things I was trying very hard was to talk about divisiveness

and the ability to talk a lot of people. Even Hanan Giridhas talked about persuasion and getting along and having calm. Almost everybody's talked about that. And I wanted to foster more than the you suck, which some of them do, was what are we going to do about it now? And that's why we did the climate show. What are we going to do? All right, enough. What are we going to do? But she never gave in to the temptation to start criticizing the other side.

Yeah, which was great. Which was great. I think that was good. And that's what we tried to do here. So on to our new things. That's the show, Scott, but you're back. So that's what's critical. Hello, ladies was great. Which was great. I think that was good. And that's what we tried to do here. So on to our new things. That's the show, Scott, but you're back. So that's what's critical. Hello, ladies and gentlemen.

I can't believe how much people missed you. That's right. They missed you so much. They did. For good reason. They missed us together. For good reason. Anyway, we'll be dropping bonus episodes of Code Interviews in coming weeks, starting

with a full Evan Spiegel interview in the feed on Saturday. Scott did an amazing job, as you'll see when you hear the rest of it. Da-da! Oh my God, it's so good to have me back. It's so good. You missed it. Be honest. You really missed it. I got a little bit bored. I got a little bit bored. Yeah, you do. That's what happens. And this is fun for you. I think you like me. I think you like me. You really like me. Read us out, Scott. You have to read us out.

Today's episode was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Engetot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Severo. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

He's a total douchebag, but he's your douchebag, and he's back.