Pivot - Sean Hannity has a meltdown. Twitter, Facebook and Google tackle misinformation. Softbank abandons WeWork. PLUS Quibi gets a break.

Episode Date: April 3, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about Sean Hannity defending his work at Fox News (after Kara called him out for spreading misinformation in the early days of COVID-19). They discuss how the big tech companies are dealing with fact-checking politicians for public health information accuracy. Meanwhile, Softbank is scrapping its buy out of Adam Neumann's shares at WeWork. Also, Kara and Scott talk about several labor strikes that took place this week -- will COVID-19 be a reckoning for corporate America? In Listener Mail, we get a question about whether Quibi's launch during quarantine will accelerate its growth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and bringing anyone on who will say that we're having a hysterical reaction. You really got under his skin. I don't know. You know, I was such surprised. Look, this is a column I wrote about my mom, and it's about Fox News parents, really, which is, you know, they're in the foxhole is the joke among people who have parents who love Fox News. And so she had been ignoring a lot of my bothering her and my brother, who's a doctor about COVID-19. And we kept, she's in Florida by herself and with some friends, but she and my brother, who's a doctor about, uh, COVID-19. And we kept, she's in Florida by herself and with some friends, but she kept going out and she's going to

restaurants and long after you needed to, like you needed to do something about it. And, you know, Florida just yesterday shut down. So, which is just amazing. It took so long, but, um, you know, we had been saying, why don't you stay in, please don't go out to restaurants. And she kept doing it. And I kept sending her charts. And she was irritated by me. And it's just a column about that, about that most of the news she got, and almost all of it, is Fox News. And particularly people like Sean Hannity, who not everyone on the network was doing that. Tucker Carlson was putting out very good information about the dangers.

And I was super fair in this column. I was like, look, she is a news consumer and responsible herself. But, and I even said at the top of it, you know, I'm not gonna sue you, Sean Hannity. And I was referring to a lot of people thinking they should be sued. And I said, I don't think they should be sued.

It's just they're bad at their job. Then they have a first minute right to be bad at their jobs. And he just went, literally, I was the most fair you could be to someone who deserves almost no fairness in this regard. And he just went, literally, I was the most fair you could be to someone who deserves almost no fairness in this regard. And he just went crazy. He started tweeting in the morning

and then he went on his radio show. I didn't listen to most of it because my mom did it for me because she enjoys it. And then he went on his TV show last night, apparently. And then he tweeted when he finished his TV show. And everyone seemed to be delighted that he melted down. And I find it disturbing and depressing that he did. But whatever.

It's not disturbing and depressing. Let me just review. He called you an incompetent, lazy, and a hypocrite. And I got to be honest, that made me a little bit happy. I don't think it's true. I don't think it's true. And it's strange because Fox is generally so generous to lesbian icons of media. They're usually very generous and magnanimous, the good folks over at Fox.

But the thing he has issued a challenge, and I think we should call him, and he said in his rant, I mean, I'm not joking. This is a moment for you because you've gotten under the second most powerful man in the world's skin. And for some reason, you really pissed him off. So, this is a big moment for you. But he said something, and I think we should accept the challenge. He said that he will hold up his timeline against yours. And that is, his timeline is actually quite similar to you. It's just about 14 days behind yours. You were telling me when I said, oh, no, we're going to South by Southwest, you were like humming and a-hanging and saying, I don't know, Scott. I'm not sure. So you were actually out.

Yeah, yeah. Some of it's because I think you're a germaphobe and a little strange, but you were actually out in front of this, and you were pretty. I still don't think I was out in front early enough. Well, none of us do. You know what I mean? None of us feel that way now, right? But I definitely was interviewing Ron Kl out in front early enough. You know what I mean? But I definitely was interviewing Ron Klain by very early on. And we had that epidemiologist on the show in late

February, in February 25th. So I agree. But this guy, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. All of this is coming down to a very simple methodology around investigation, and that is, what did you know and when did you know it? And you're saying, and I understand, you're saying that the primary kind of kevlar here with all media is First Amendment, that they have a right to express their opinion. I don't think that's the issue here. I think the issue here is that we're going to find that all of the people saying go to the like crazy, and showering in Purell and broadcasting from home. That as they were telling the U.S. public, I just – at some point, does negligence become reckless, become malfeasance, become some sort of, you know, some form of involuntary or reckless endangerment of other people's lives. Because I just don't believe. I think these people, these people, it's not terrible.

I think the people at Fox are very smart. I think they're very good at what they do. And I think anyone who has an IQ over 80, and they all clearly read you in the New York Times. They were all reading the New York Times. They were all talking to Dr. Anthony Fauci. Must have seen what was coming here. And yet they were telling their consumer base, which average age is 69. So they have an older consumer base.

I made that point. They have a consumer base that's in red states. They literally have the most vulnerable consumer base to the virus. They were telling them, hey, don't worry. Head out. Head out. Head back to work. Yeah, that was the issue was with my mom.

She kept saying the talking points. The whole, yeah, that was the issue was with my mom. She kept saying the talking points. And I had to go to Fox to see because, you know, most of the time she argues about whether Nancy Pelosi's in the tank or whatever. I hear she's drunk or that Joe Biden is addled. She has, you know, after a while that just becomes tiresome noise in the background of her watching that stuff. But when she started to spew non-correct health information, especially my brothers on the front lines of this in San Francisco, like around that it's just like the flu, Cara. It's not a big deal.

The media is spinning it. It's the Democrats trying to score political points. The only one of the ones that she didn't spew was this idea that Trump was a victim because, you know, she alternately doesn't like him and he amuses her. You know what I mean? But it was really amazing. And even last night she was tweeting me saying, oh, look, Fox News is way up and MSNBC is down. She's still in their camp. Fine. If she wants to live over there and in that place, that's fine.

But when they put bad health information in front of her, that was my point. I spent a lot of hours trying to get her to stop going out. And the fact that I had to, and I think it's an experience a lot of people had. And I was just reflecting that. And even, I said, you don't even, I don't think you should sue him because I think they have the right to be bad at their jobs. But literally, unless, you know, there's some email saying, let's be bad at our jobs. I don't know. I can't imagine any way I would sue him. On top of it, like, he goes crazy and then says, she wants to sue me. And I was like, literally the first lines are, I do not want to sue you and why. So, just this, like, man baby really is just, he's a man baby. I don't know what else to say. Well, according to the Daily Beast, you called him a windbag of rage. A windbag of rage.

And then actually, oh, wait. That's what I usually reserve for you. Okay, this, I'm just a windbag. It's a mix of rage and love. So Daily Beast goes on to say, Swisher is a celebrated and supremely well-connected tech and media journalist, a formidable figure in Silicon Valley. I just threw up in my mouth. That's it. Oh, my God.

It's true, though. You know what? And also, I put up pictures of me and Rupert Murdoch when he said he didn't. He kept mispronouncing my name and trying to make it foreign, I guess. I don't know. But he kept saying, I don't know who she is. And I put up pictures of me hanging out with Rupert at dinner. I was like, ask your boss.

It was just ridiculous. It's just so interesting, the new narrative, the new talking point or the new narrative. Now that the administration has said, okay, they've all gotten in a room and finally someone's raised their hand and said, well, okay, let's be honest. We fucked up. We fucked up. It's not going away. It's not disappearing like a miracle. We're in trouble. We had more time to prepare for it than anybody else we claim we have the best health care system than anyone else in the world and we have now handled this worse than anyone else in the world and it's going to be an economic disaster and not only a disaster and take an extraordinary human toll because of the incompetence and by the way i

want to be clear uh a lot of good reporting is coming out that China was corrupt, that China was not transparent and open about the number of virus. So the two largest economies in the world are embellishing their reputation as corrupt China and incompetent the United States. But what— Well, what's interesting— Well, what their new talking point is, and it's just fascinating from a communication standpoint, is like, okay, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. We were late. People are going to die. The economy is going to be in a tailspin longer because of our refusal to get out ahead of this.

Now they're saying, now they're basically essentially you go into a doctor and the doctor says, oh, no, that rash on your leg, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Get back to work. Be a productive part of the economy. And then a person comes in and says, okay, the rash is now all over my body. And they say, well, guess what? Because of our good work, we think we can save one of your limbs because we're so good at what they do. The latest talking point is they're now saying, because of our good work, we may only lose a quarter of a million people, which by the way, is the same number of people who died in World War II. It's five times the number of people who died in Vietnam, and it's 100 times the number

of people who perished on 9-11. And they're actually trying to flip it to, well, it could have been a lot worse. And did you see this bullshit yesterday where the president said, well, I knew all along this was going to be bad. I just didn't want to scare people, treating us like we're 11-year-olds. And every piece of information around leadership says that the public are big boys and girls, and what makes them feel better and what demonstrates leadership is a sober and honest conversation around what is actually going on and then painting a future for how we're going to get out of this thing, which they have failed to do. But this is a case study in poor calm strategy. It's just crazy what's going on here. It's fascinating on the thing, But this is a case study in poor comm strategy.

It's just crazy what's going on here. It's fascinating on the thing. But, you know, obviously the big story is still COVID-19. And Florida, as where you are, I hope you're sheltering in place. You already were. I'm in Saran Wrap. It's declared a statewide, yeah, Saran Wrap stay-at-home order. The stalled economy, a collective reckoning with what it means not to work for non-essential workers,

what it means for others who are in harm's way. It's a really... This is going to be studied for many years to come, I think, in terms of economics, health care, everything else. So let's go through it, some of the stuff. We did talk about Fox's culpability in spreading the misinformation early, and you know, we can play

this clip of him if you want. I don't really want to. Oh, let's play the clip of the windbag of rage. All right. The rage. Wait, bag rage? The rage. Roll tape, Rebecca.

Roll that bitch Hannity tape. You know, making a case. My mom only listened to Fox News and Sean Hannity, and I was worried about my mom and so i i just tweeted out so you proud the woman's name is cara of swisher i don't even know who she is um and i i just said you are ignorant and you are lazy and you are a total hypocrite okay that's it that's magic i mean that's magic hypocrite he Okay, that's enough. That's magic. I mean, I'm a lying hypocrite. He called me a maniac media something.

But there's a lot of Ms. There was a lot of poor alliteration of someone who didn't do that. I'm telling you, that guy, all he needs is to be part of a gay thruple and open a big jungle cat park. That's the next level for Hannity. That's his calling. Well, speaking of which, yes, he could be on Tiger. I watched Tiger, whatever, Tiger King. It was very good. It was really good.

I loved it. It was great. It was a really good documentary, may I just say. Away from all the craziness, it was beautifully done. And I know people, to me, Doc Antle was the most interesting character there, honestly. Which one was Doc Antle? He's the one that's like making a lot of money. Oh, he's the smart one character there, honestly. Which one was Doc Anno? Wait, Doc Anno. He's the one that's making a lot of money

riding on the elephant. Oh, he's the smart one. The elephant guy. Oh, totally. Oh, my God. He's banging young hotties, and he's a millionaire, and staying out of everyone's way. Doesn't piss off PETA.

Yeah. He doesn't want to be with Carol and the other guy. No, you're right. He is the smart one. Anyway, it was quite good. I'm excited for the movie. It was really good. I'd like for the movie. It was really good. I'd like to remove Sean Hannity from our minds right now,

but he really, I just, you know, listen, Sean. As we bring him up again? Sean, let me just bring him the final time. Stop tweeting at me. It's getting a little embarrassing, and it feels like you're a little interested in me, and it's disturbing. I think he likes the saucy little minx known as Kara Swisher.

I can see it. I'm only committed to you in an unfunctionally dysfunctional relationship. The future. Let me tell you, you're the only dysfunctional relationship I want to have with a man right now. Okay? All right, that's how it's going to go. And you are mine. The future ex-Mr. Swisher, Sean Hannity.

Sean Hannity. All right. Oh my God. If I wasn't gay already, Who gets the Toyota Land Cruiser in that divorce? Who gets it? Listen to me. Listen. Listen. I don't know what to say. He has a haircut that's not unappealing to lesbians.

Anyway, on platforms that Facebook actually took down video. I'm moving on from him. Enough about Sean Hannity. Let's go to the tech companies we so love to give a hard on platforms that Facebook actually took down video. I'm moving on from him. Well done, my friend. Enough about Sean Hannity. Let's go to the tech companies we so love to give a hard time to.

Facebook took down video of a Brazilian president that was providing misinformation about a drug that would cure COVID-19. Obviously, Facebook is moving away for their claim that they do not, in fact, check public figures. That was interesting.

Twitter also removed tweets by Brazilian-Venezuelan presidents and Rudy Giuliani that shared that information. And back at Facebook, Sheryl Sandberg said the company's lessons learned from its numerous mistakes over the past couple of years prepared it to deal with the crises caused by the coronavirus pandemic. And Google has completely revamped their landing page on coronavirus to include information about cases and spread and recommendations from the CDC. vamped their landing page on coronavirus to include information about cases and spread and recommendations from the CDC.

So tech, you know, tech is sort of stepping up a little better here. And it was, it's interesting that they have. I think it's interesting. And they, I don't know, what do you think? Are they going to be more aggressive about misinformation in the future? I doubt it. Well, yeah, they're, so I got one of those. I got a notification on Twitter, I've never received one before, saying you're violating our

terms of service. We have temporarily shut down your account. And it asked you to click like three or four times to get your account restored. And it says, did you read our terms of service? Click here. And you go, yes. And then all of a sudden it says, congratulations, your account has been restored. And it was something around, I guess I'd use music in one of my videos. I wasn't entirely sure. But their way of threatening or warning you is to say, your account's been shut down. Just click here four times and it's restored. But please don't do this again.

And I wasn't even entirely sure what I did. But I do think, I can't figure out. And I want you to answer this. Are we going to find out that big tech has been as reckless, as indifferent as they usually are, but we just have bigger fish to fry here? Or has, in fact, big tech sort of wisely said, we can't get this one wrong. We could really get in hot water if we – again, there are going to be a bunch of data scientists who correlate media consumption with infection and mortality rates. And the people at Facebook and Google are probably smart enough to figure out that, okay, if we find that people who watch YouTube more than three hours, more than three hours a day, have higher infection rates, that could be bad on bad. And we're guilty of a lot of stuff.

We've been taking a lot of heat. We need to be clean on this one. Do you think it's that or is it just we're staring at bigger picture for that? I think they've gotten better and smarter. You know what I mean? I think they realized they saw this train coming down the tracks and didn't want it to derail. I think if it had been a big mess, they would have been right in here with Fox News and others. You know what I mean? And they knew better kind of thing. And so I think this, and it was also an opportunity for redemption that they're trying to do that.

Now, it also points out that they can do it. And so therefore they can't do it for a lot of other things. And the shame is that they need to hide, essentially seek cover from a healthcare crisis that everyone agrees is terrible. Like it's very easy to be for blocking this information. And so the question is when it becomes a little dicier, what are they going to do? And when it's clear that there's some, like around the election, I think will be interesting on what, I think that's where I'm sort of like, okay, but what about this? Because everything is colored by COVID-19 going forward for the next year, really.

And it'll be interesting. It'd just be interesting what they do and if they're going to be more aggressive on some, if it gets more aggressive, and I think it will. And we'll see. I mean, they are, what it's proven is that they're publishers. That's the, and I think that's a good thing that they recognize that they're publishers and they have a responsibility in the information diet of the Americans and around the globe. And, you know, now they're trying to do things a little too far. They're announcing this money they're giving to news organizations. They're trying to curry favor. Hold the phone. $25 million. So speaking of windbags of rage and hypocrisy, let's talk about Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg deciding to donate money for the aid of journalism and small

newspapers. In other news, Cara, the NRA has donated 75 bucks to kids who've been shot in the face. I mean, this is, this is again, this is again, okay, posing for the cameras. 20, we have got to start putting out some metric that is, okay, Jeff Bezos has just donated seven minutes of his income to save wildlife in Australia and has put out 383 press releases on it. At some point, we're going to start- Yeah, I don't like when they do these things. At some point, we're going to start referencing. If you put out a press release about your philanthropy, somewhere in that press release, or there should be a website that says what

percentage of your net worth, because I know a lot of people, and I'm sure you know them, that don't make a ton of money who give a large portion of their hard-earned salary away to philanthropy, are always there, always able to step up. I've actually been shocked. I've been on a lot of board calls, and you can never predict, and money is not a predictor, who is generous and who is not generous around helping employees, taking cuts in salaries in difficult times. I've been really, really shocked. It's just so interesting when you think about all medals, or almost all medals in armed services around the world are largely a function of your grace and your bravery under fire. They don't

give medals out for the funniest guy in the mess room. They don't give medals out for the person who is the most interesting and thoughtful. They give medals out for when people start firing on you and your colleagues, who shows, who demonstrates bravery, courage, level-headed thinking. And this is a very interesting time. We're going to get to see who really handles themselves under Grace Under Fire. Well, you know, look, I'm going to push back a little bit. It's good for them to give the $25 million for news or news themselves. There was another $75 million that people thought was to buy ads on Facebook. That's not the case.

They're going to buy ads on these newspaper websites, I guess, or in these newspapers, and then donate quite a few of them to local small businesses. Look, they should be doing stuff like this. I just thought the press release part was like, they should just quietly— It's called a last meal for the person you're about to execute. I mean, it's just ridiculous. I know, I know, but it's just—I agree.

I think they shouldn't make a big deal of it. That's my issue. And look, they're just trying to get— they're trying to like redeem themselves. That is, that is all part of the redemption drive that we're not as bad as you think. And when, and when the comparison is Fox News, they're not as bad as we think. Right. So that's the, of course they are. They had their own set of issues. Okay. But you'd rather have, okay. If, if, what would you rather have? I'm not going to like get angry at for giving $25 million to local news outlets. But the problem is Fox News is a spectacle, but it's not historic. Fox News, 3 million people watch Hannity every day. He is the biggest person in cable television. I think he gets an audience

between, I think, between three and maybe sometimes on when he's interviewing the president, 8 million. Facebook reaches a billion and a half people a day. So anything, you're talking about the difference between a dumpster fire, which catches your attention, and a nuclear bomb being set off. Facebook does exponentially more damage every day. We just talk about Fox because the characters are interesting. And for some reason, TV seems to be- Fair. We're just obsessed with TV. Nice dovetailing of the two things.

There you go. I think you're right. Weaving it together. But listen, so here's one that's interesting. SoftBank won't be buying Adam Neumann's WeWork shares. SoftBank has stopped. It's offered to pay up to $3 billion for shares in the office space provider WeWork. That spells bad news for Neumann, the former CEO.

He had the right to sell up to $970 million in stock to SoftBank as part of the deal that led to his ousting. But SoftBank said conditions for completing the stock sale weren't met by the April 1st deadline. They cited the pandemic as one of the reasons. That little cover there. By terminating the share acquisition and said government lockdowns were imposing restrictions against WeWork. And it's operations. I mean, like, oh, good God. You know what it is, Carol?

It's proof that even during tragedy, wonderful things can happen. I mean, I read this. I read this. First, yes, it was a good day. First off, Hannity calls you a lazy hypocrite, which brings me joy. And then I hear that SoftBank is backing out

of their billion-dollar signed commitment. I mean, this is real. This is a signed agreement that you're supposed to close on. Which weird is, I guess there wasn't an escrow. And then the special committee of the board, including Lou Frankfurt, former CEO of Coach, an icon of business, and Benchmark, and representatives of Adam Neumann, who all agreed to sell shares at what was a ridiculous valuation of $8 billion. This company's not worth $8 billion because Masayoshi Son and SoftBank wanted to save face and wanted to take control of the company and didn't want to let American vultures come in and buy the company for half a billion to a billion, which is what it's

probably worth right now. But now they have face-saving cloud cover from this pathogen, from this novel coronavirus. And so they've said, I know, let's let the think tank. And by the way, this is, I don't want to call it the foul nail in the coffin, but just, it's just so interesting. There really is. There'll be lawsuits. There'll be lawsuits. But the virus? There'll be lawsuits. That's the next. The virus is the great accelerator. WeWork was going to have trouble. A bunch of its properties didn't make any sense. The DNA of expenses that were too high was going to, I think, deem this company. And this has just accelerated that.

And you're going to see. And no one cares. And quite frankly, SoftBank doesn't care. This is just like. Yeah. The Vision Fund has become an infected, ingrown hare, and they're out. They're done. They're like, this is all we need. I've heard they're just going to wind that one down, because the guy ran it. There's all that controversy around him.

I think it's just, sorry, Saudi Arabia, we've lost all your money kind of thing. So I knew that you'd find pleasure in both those things today. I'm so glad you have that to feel good about. Listen, I want to move on to something more important. COVID-19, the defining moment for corporate America and the labor movement. Several employee protests and strikes at big companies. Instacart delivery workers staged a strike to protest their lack of protective gear. 200,000 people reported to have participated. Whole food employees at a sick out to protest low wages, lack of paid leave, and other protective measures since they're labeled essential workers. Amazon workers walked up the job.

They fired the organizer. Just to be fair, whole foods raised pay by $2 per hour for hourly employees, and Amazon raised pay by $2 per hour for warehouse and delivery workers in the U.S. through April. But it's still, you know, they just feel they're in an unsafe situation. GE employees protest to demand the company convert its jet engine factories to make ventilators. General Electric announced it would be laying off 10% of its domestic aviation workforce. They fired nearly 2,600 workers along with a temporary layoff of 50% of its maintenance workers in a bid to save the company $500 million to a billion. its maintenance workers in a bid to save the company $500 million to a billion. It's really like the layoffs are going to happen rather substantively across April, I think. On the

other hand, Bob Iger, taking full salary out during this time. Delta's CEO and board of directors taking full salary cuts. Lyft co-founders John Zimmer and Logan Green pledged to donate their salaries through June, only June, although I think that company is going to be in a lot more trouble. Scott, you said COVID would accelerate everything, which you just said. Is it going to accelerate the breaking point between workers and top brass? And from an optics standpoint, which companies will come out good in this? Oh, I'd like to think it's going to force us to reevaluate the hierarchy of our society economically. And the hierarchy is the following. The consumer is the king or the queen. Everyone has decided that

the consumer, whatever's good for the consumer, is good for all of us. So if you can provide a free service, that means you should never break it up and it shouldn't have to pay taxes. The consumer reigns number one. Shareholders are kind of number two, and workers are a distant number three. And you see this on full display here, and that is at a place like Uber and all these companies, they're talking about some sort of bailout. So, Dara Khosrowshahi, the new lipstick on cancer, has all of a sudden found empathy when it's someone else's check, and he's writing letters to Congress asking them to pay, to be generous in their bailout of gig workers, despite the fact he has spent tens of millions

of dollars to try and circumvent legislation such that he doesn't have to pay payroll taxes or provide health insurance to his workers who now feel a need to show up to work and put themselves in dangerous situations because they don't have any money, because they have figured out a way using software to suppress the wages of workers. Look at the U.S. auto industry, Kara. On average, they make $27 an hour. The majority of them have health insurance. The majority of them are still employed. Look at Uber workers who get fired every day. If there's no work, they don't make anything, have no health insurance. Uber does not pay their fair share of taxes. They've likely paid no federal income taxes. And yet Uber is worth more. It's a great business model. This all adds up to a great business model that makes Uber worth more than

the entire U.S. auto industry. So we as a society, and it's not Uber's fault, we will all make rationalizations such that we can have a home in the Hamptons. But what we have is we've said, okay, we'd rather have a transfer of wealth from the government and from workers to shareholders. So the first, and the question comes down to the following, what kind of world do we want to live in? Do we want to live in a world where auto executives make millions of dollars and there are hundreds of thousands of employees that have health insurance and continue to get paid in a disaster like this? Or do we want a world of Uber where the top hundred people there make hundreds of millions or even billions, but the seven million strong labor force doesn't have health insurance and makes less than minimum wage? And what we have said loudly and clearly in this

country is that we want to affect a transfer of wealth from government and from employees to shareholders. And it comes at a huge cost. In Europe, I have a lot of friends I've been talking to in Europe, and they've said that there isn't the same sense of panic they don't believe unless you've been affected personally by the virus.

There isn't the same level of economic panic because the rescue packages in Europe differ from the U.S. rescue package in the sense that it's mostly, mostly across European nations been about saying, okay, employees, don't worry, you need to go home, but we're going to ensure you maintain 70 to 80% of your salary. Whereas in the U.S., we're like, okay, for every dollar we're going to give to individuals, we've got to give a dollar loan to a business or a bailout or some sort of, and I think this is a good idea, loans to small business. It's a different point of view.

But we have, we've got to look in the mirror here. Should we be more like Germany where there are 40 to 50% of every board has to be represented by the workers? We have totally minimized labor in our country. I don't think, see, I'm going to stop you. We're not going there. You don't think it's going to happen? We don't like, we have a whole different point of view about people, and it's survived the ages, like how people are fodder, really fodder and fungible. And I don't think that's going to change by this or anything else. I think it's built into the DNA of the US, which is pull

yourself up by your bootstraps, even if you don't have boots. Like, I'm sorry. It's just, I don't see this as changing it. I don't, I think it should. I think there should be workers on the boards of companies. I think we should think about how they're doing it elsewhere. I think people are like, you're on your own, buddy. It's same thing with these testing. You're on your own, buddy. It's a DNA part of this country. And maybe it'll change. I think it will be super slow going. Even this will not change. But except I do think the hypocrisy is on full display here. And that is on the way up when the market is booming and companies are using 98% of their free cash flow to improve the stock price and companies

are laying off employees such that they can increase earnings and the compensation of the top 5% of every company are largely dependent upon and have huge, huge upside around the value of their shares. We talk about rugged individualism and capitalism. And then when shit gets real and there's a trope event and the equity might get wiped out, all of a sudden CEOs are saying, we're in this together. We're in this together. And the reality is, and I don't take this statement lightly, we should let a lot of these companies fail. Because to be clear, when we talk about a company failing, the CEO of the company all of a sudden wraps himself in the socialist and comity of man and red, white, and blue flag that it's all about his or her workers.

No, it's not, boss. It's about your comp because the majority of your comp is through equity. And the reality is if Carnival Cruises or if Delta Airlines or if any company goes out of business that has worth, they're not going away. There may be some interruption, and there are probably certain sectors that warrant some sort of preferred, convertible preferred loan from the government because they could do so much damage if they go away for a while. But the vast majority of companies, it just means the equity holders get wiped out.

It just means that the wealthiest, the 10% of top income earning households who have had champagne and cocaine economy for the last 12 years, it means they finally get kicked in the nuts like the rest of America that hasn't had a wage raise in 30 years. But be clear, if Carnival Cruises, and I recommended the stock three weeks, oops. But the bottom line is, if that company goes bankrupt, the ships don't go to the bottom of the ocean. It just means the debt holders now own the ships and the equity gets wiped out. So are we capitalists on the way up and the way down? Or are we just capitalists on the way up? This is a test for us. Do we walk the walk? Are we going to privatize the gains and socialize the losses is basically the call sign for CEOs here.

Can I just say, it's so good to have you on the show, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. It's really lovely to have you. You, oh my God. You mean Hannity AOC, double date from heaven. Oh my God. No, we're not going there.

Oh, I would so go there. Listen, we're going to take a quick break, AOC. Oh my God. You are so on so go there. Listen, we're going to take a quick break, AOC. Oh, my God. You are so on the communist train. I love it. That's capitalism. I'm on a capitalism train.

I know, compassion. I'm on a capitalism train. Okay, sure. After capitalism, I think most of us. All these fucking CEOs are now socialists. They all want bailouts now. Time for a quick break. Of course they are. Time for a quick break. Time, of course they are. Time for a quick break.

Didn't you just watch Titanic, what happened there? They got on the lifeboats, the rich people. Come on. Left the poor people down below. They locked them down below. Anyway, Scott, it's time for a quick break. We'll be back. That movie introduced me to Celine Dion.

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You've got mail. Hey, Karen, Scott, this is Tim from Los Angeles. And I had a question about coronavirus and the impact on the streaming wars. Scott, you've been skeptical in the past about Quibi and any new service launching after we got the release of Disney+. And I'm curious, has the current climate changed your assessment about the viability of a new streaming service? Could there be a better time to launch a new streaming service? And what would Quibi need to do to maintain momentum

once people are no longer housebound by the pandemic? Thanks, guys. That's a good one. They're about set to launch next week. And by the way, the last weekend was the first weekend in U.S. box office that it hit zero revenue, just as China started reopening the theaters for the first time since the COVID-19 hit.

What do you think, Scott? TV pilots have been halted. They can't make them. Broadcasters are a huge employer in L.A. during the pilot seasons. They have material, but they'll run out at some point. What do you think about Quibi's chances now? Well, just as in a time of crisis or sort of a hundred-year flood event or revolution or war, sometimes a nation will let people out of prison. Jack Dorsey, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Masayoshi Son have all gotten a reprieve. And that is, you could see Quibi.

Quibi is going to get a ton of momentum out of the gates because we're all at home. These quick hit, fun video content and series that they have lined up and some of them look really fun. I think we have never needed a revival of Punked more than we need it now.

And that is Quibi is planning to do. So yeah, I think Qu have never needed a revival of Punk'd more than we need it now. And that is Quibi is planning to do. So, yeah, I think Quibi actually has a fighting chance here. I still don't think it survives. I don't think... What about marketing? They can't really market themselves, can they, as well? I guess on TV. How do they get people using it?

Well, it all comes down to this. The value proposition isn't there. Because since the two and a half years since they launched it, basically, they're saying for five bucks a month, you get one and a half billion dollars of content. Whereas Apple is saying for five bucks a month, we'll give you four to seven billion dollars of content a month. And Netflix for 12 bucks will give you eight to 12 billion dollars a year in content. So unless Quibi has some secret sauce, and they've claimed their secret sauce is short form, which as far as I can tell, you can't patent. It's just going to come down to value. They're not going to be able to put as much talent and production value on the screen per dollar, and consumers ultimately make

that trade-off. But they'll get more momentum out of the gates. Their timing is really fortunate here. I work for a company that does online education. I don't want to say we're benefiting from this, but our timing was really lucky here. And Quibi is really lucky. Quibi is going to launch their boats with a lot of wind behind them over the long term. And content.

And content. Interesting content. And long term. I don't know. What do you think? Are you looking forward? Are you bullish on Quibi? I'll look at it.

Definitely. I think the winner here has been Netflix with their shows. I mean, they have had more. People just really appreciate Netflix now. I haven't heard as much talk about Disney+. I don't have kids who are watching the Disney Plus stuff right now. Yeah. But, of course, I will again. But I think they're all going to do well.

But I do think Netflix is showing itself to be, once again, the one that runs the track around everybody else. And this money well spent at this point. You know, it's an interesting moment for certain businesses. Like, I know everyone I know that has money is buying a Peloton, for example. And, of course, they aren't delivering until April, late April. Stuff like that. But, you know, in this case, yes, I think you're right. Jeff Kassenberg, it was very dicey in terms of getting people to use this in a busy world. And now the world's not so busy and it looks like it's not going to be busy for a while.

And I think you're right. But I do think there's a question of what do people do to make more things? Like I was on the set of Billions, I think in January or something like that. They were not through the season by any stretch. So how do you make, like they've been doing the, I don't know if you've been watching like Jimmy Kimmel or Jimmy Fallon or Stephen Colbert. They've been trying their level best to make shows. And I think they're kind of good. They're kind of been pretty interesting to watch. But I don't know how long you can sustain that.

And that's the issue. But, you know, certain TV mediums, like I have to say, Chris Cuomo, who has coronavirus, I cannot stand him most days of the week. And I got to tell you, he's in the basement, sick Chris Cuomo. I'm sorry he's sick. And he seems to be doing better than most people. But it's really compelling watching it. And it's very emotional in a way that's actually very touching. And so it's interesting, because I do—definitely, I'm spending a lot more time watching television, but I don't know.

Well, I saw Chris Cuomo. I turned it on, and then I was watching him. I like Chris Cuomo. I really think he made a mistake giving Kellyanne Conway such a big platform. I thought that was a strategic error. But I turned that thing on, and I literally read as I was watching him that Chris Cuomo has COVID-19. I'm like, shit, I want what he has. That guy is so handsome and so articulate and seems to have – I mean, is that what happens when you get COVID-19?

No. That guy looks great. Oh, God. Jesus. That guy looks great. Oh, God. Jesus, that guy looks great. COVID-19 equals bad for most people. Well, I get that. I get that. I think he's bringing it home in a very emotional way for people.

And I think he's articulating it well. But I think a lot of people have a chance now to really do substantive information like this, like he's doing. And I think Quibi will provide pleasure to people like, you know, who are just bummed out. So I have some inside baseball here and which will probably queer the deal I'm working on. Wait, is that bigoted or sexist to say queer the deal? Just go ahead. I'm just not going to bother at this point. Anyways, so the dog, just to give you a sense of how desperate content, how much money has overinvested in content creation, I've been talking to studios about doing a show. And it started with budgets of half a million to a million dollars for sort of like a business review show, right?

And now the budgets are $100,000 to $ to 200K an episode, and they want to film them from your home. And so what will happen when content, I mean, what we're finding is, quite frankly, is that 80% of the production value gets you probably 90% of the value. And I wonder if we're going to shift and take money out of production values such that we can have more content and more selection. Because all of the folks who are bidding on our show have said, now there's more of them bidding, but they've all cut their budgets and said, we're going to film it from your home. Because I think what they're finding is, in a lot of instances, that if you're watching MSNBC, I did an interview yesterday with Stephanie Ruhl,

and Stephanie was in her home, and all of us were in our homes. The quality will get better. They'll use technology to figure out and tweak it. But, I mean, you and I are a perfect example. Our production value has gone down. We're no longer putting video on YouTube. The sound quality is only 90% as good as it usually is, but it doesn't seem to be impairing people's consumption. So is media about to become the greatest innovation in retail history or fastest zero to a billion retailer was Old Navy that said, for 80%, we'll offer you 80% of the quality of the

gap for 50% of the price, and it went to a billion dollars faster. Is media about to go 80% of the production quality for 50% of the price and dramatically expand their market share across different mediums because they're able to put a lot of stuff on screen for less money? That is interesting. What I really want to know is why you're doing a show without me, but I'm not going to go into that. Because I'm a narcissist. We'll be processing that later with Esther Perel in our session. You, me, and that windbag of rage. I'm going to do a show with Sean Hannity now, just so windbag of rage. I'm going to do a show

with Sean Hannity now, just so you know. Just so I'm going over there to Fox. You start to like people who are mean to you. It's like foreplay for you. You like them. You're like, come over here. Come over here. Let's go to the Orange Julius and make out together at the mall. Let's go to the mall

and make out at the Orange Julius, says that hypocritical, lazy icon of journalism. I think you're making a very salient insight here, whether it needs to cost that much. It does, and I think you're right. I think you're right. And I think it's going to be an interesting time to see what happens.

But I think they'll probably go back to their sets and their limos and their cars. Live, you miss a lot. You know, it's really, quite frankly, you have those moments that sort of brings home what is going on. But when you're watching Colbert or Kimmel and they pan to the audience

and you see a bunch of the admin staff and a bunch of the writers and the workers all sitting in the audience 10 feet from each other, it's like, oh, I almost forgot what's going on. Now I remember. It really is kind of, it's one of those sort of rattling moments. Although there's one area, and then we're going to take a break, is I thought the debate between Biden and Bernie was quite good because it was actually substantive because there wasn't the

crowds and it just made it better. It made it better as a policy discussion. So it goes back and forth. But I think you've got, you're onto something, Scott Galloway, sneaking around Hollywood without me. Anyway, we're going to be right back with predictions when we return. I rubbed Sean Hannity's feet last night. I'm coming clean. I'm coming clean.

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My prediction is, and I don't know, I have no inside information here, but my prediction is the majority of universities in hot zones, whether it's San Francisco or New York, are not going to open for fall. I think that when we get through this, when we get through this and we will, I think there's going to be a decent amount of thoughtful and warranted concern about the relapse in the fall. And we're going to decide that putting, my class is 160 people in a tight room. And we're going to probably decide that even if this thing has gone away, unless we have a vaccine, we're going to decide not to do that for a while. So we're going to see this incredible value creation or focus on dispersion. And that is industries that typically bring a lot of people together in a small place are going to take fall off. And this is going to have huge ramifications

on the world of education, where it's no longer going to be a moment in time where we all have to learn how to do Zoom. It's probably going to be the catalyst for what is the long-awaited disruption in education, where we no longer constrain supply through our physical spaces. So fall is going to be a very interesting moment in time. We're supposed to welcome several million new students to campuses. I don't think we're going to do that unless the campus is spread out. And it'll be on a case-by-case basis.

But your dense universities in areas where there was a lot of COVID-19, and it'll be on a case-by-case basis, but your dense universities in areas where there was a lot of COVID-19, and I'm wondering if there's any area that's not going to have a lot of COVID-19 right now. I think this thing is going to find every corner of the U.S. In cities, for sure. And they're going to say, do we want to be the university that was the new hot zone for a relapse in the fall? That's going to become a very real concern. Anyways, I think education in the fall is going to decide not to be— What about schools? What about K-12?

That's a great question. I don't know. What do you think? I just have no—I don't know. I don't know. My kids went back to school this week online, and it's really substandard, I have to say. I'm kind of—I mean— It's weird, isn't it?

Have you listened in? It's weird. Well, it's not well done, and they have to think hard, because I'm kind of, I mean. It's weird, isn't it? Have you listened to it? It's weird. Well, it's not well done. And they have to think hard because I'll tell you, we pay a lot. My kids go to private school, but they pay a lot of money. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like, you know, I don't think anybody's getting it right. But it's really, it's a really, I don't know.

I have a kid in a ninth grader and a kid who's going to college. And both the colleges he wants to go to are in really hot zones. So I don't know. I think he's going to have to work at a restaurant or something, like once they sort of start to open up or take out place. New executive producer for the Hannity Show. Louis Swisher. That's right. Oh, he's so good. He called me, he wrote me, I love you, Mom. You're so great. It's so funny.

Even my mom, even though she was doubting Fox News, wrote a little text that I put up about Sean Hannity being a horse's ass, essentially. So, yeah, my family does stick together. The Italians do stick together in the end. You're Italian? Even if I'm like the Sopranos. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Oh, wait, and your dad was German, which means you were smart

enough to know you're fucked up, but too lazy to do anything about it. My Italian-German humor. No, no. Italian was on my mom's side. She's 100% Italian. I'm happy. Lucky he's Italian. 100%. 100%. My grandfather was born in Italy. And yes, 100%. Oh, some good news. Did you see that Italy had its lowest number of new cases in several weeks yesterday? Yes, I thought that was great. That's not nice news. And I'm hoping that day comes here sooner than later, for sure.

Anyway, we have to go. Not if I can look like Chris Cuomo. God, that dude is dreamy. God, that dude is dreamy. Scott, is that your new crush? Is that your new man crush? He is so handsome. And he's thoughtful and articulate.

And you look at him, and he looks a little bit sad, and his older brother is the governor and loves him. It's that guy. Everyone's focused. The Cuomo. Everyone's focused on Andrew. Someone at Slate called it the Cuomo, the Cuomo. And isn't he married to a Kennedy?

That's it. Next life, I'm coming back as Chris Cuomo. No, not Chris Cuomo. The other Cuomo was. The other Cuomo was. The Governor Cuomo was. And there was a bad breakup. I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, didn't you follow that scandal?

I'm sorry to hear that. And yes, he's quite good. He has nice hair. I think you're attracted to the hair as usual. And it is excellent hair that you will never have. Let's just make that clear. There's a lot going on there that's never going to happen to me. Actually, Sean Hannity has better hair than you.

Sean Hannity has better hair. No, he has very good hair. Well, let's leave on a high note. Sean, nice hair. Well done. We think that's great. He and I can absolutely bond over our rage, over our ill-informed rage. God.

All right. This is such a moment for you. Oh, my God. This is such a moment for you. I am so jealous. I'm telling you. a moment for you. I am so jealous. I'm telling you, I know you are. That's really what it is. But you don't want the focus.

You don't want to be tweeted at day and night by this guy. It's creepy and weird. Anyway, I think, you know what? This is my last thing on it. Look, there was a story by Ben Smith that they didn't like about Fox News. Ben Smith, who was the media reporter. There's been several stories about this in the Times. And he just is using it to go after the New York Times.

You were kind. You were kind. I was kind compared to everyone else. And by the way, let me just say, it's easy to attack a woman who, I don't know why it's me that set him off, but he's mad about the New York Times, and it's totally calculated.

It's a calculated effort on behalf of these people, which they do all the time. No, when you watch, look, when you watch and when you advertise on Fox, be clear, be clear, you are financing the increase in infection and mortality rates, much less a voice that strategically and tactically goes after progressive female voices. You are not the first person. If you are female, if you are progressive and you are emerging voice, they decide to come after and in a concerted way across their media properties, across the Post,

across the Wall Street Journal, across Fox News. They go after progressive, emerging female voices. So that is who you are funding advertisers of Fox. Well done. Oh, my God. Get away. Anyway, don't forget if you have a story, I'll survive. I don't want to like, you know, if I start to play a den of paws with those assholes, I'm going to lose. So they're just, he's just wrong. He's just wrong. Anyway, don't forget if you have a story in the news and you're curious about what you want and when you want to hear our opinion, email us at pivot at voxmedia.com to be featured on the show. Scott, read us out. I think Chris Cuomo and I could be friends. No. You know, I think we could be out. I think Chris Cuomo and I could be friends. No.

You know, I think we could be friends. I think he'd just come out, come over, and we'd hang out. He's into sports. I'm not, but we'd just hang out. I think he'd call security on you. We'd just hang out. Please read us out. Security, that's what it would happen.

Today's episode was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Our executive producer is Erica Anderson. Special thanks to Drew Burrows and Rebecca Castro. If you like what you heard, please download or subscribe. We'll be back at the beginning of next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. Stay safe. We're getting through this. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're content that no one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign?

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