Pivot - Shutdown Ending, Trump's Pardons, and Guest Curtis Sliwa

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

The Pivot Tour rolls on! Kara and Scott are live from Brooklyn with special guest Curtis Sliwa, founder of the Guardian Angels and former NYC mayoral candidate, to talk about his campaign, his cats, and more. Then, the government shutdown appears to be coming to an end, and Trump issues another round of pardons. Plus, the Supreme Court rejects a call to overturn its same-sex marriage decision, and a New York Times piece stirs backlash over women in the workplace. Watch this episode on the ⁠⁠Pivot YouTube channel⁠⁠.Follow us on Instagram and Threads at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcastofficial⁠⁠.Follow us on Bluesky at ⁠⁠@pivotpod.bsky.social⁠⁠Follow us on TikTok at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcast⁠⁠.Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or email [e-mail] episode was recorded live at Kings Theatre in Brooklyn, New York on November 10, 2025. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is the live taping of the Pivot podcast with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. We're honored to introduce them tonight at the King's Theater in the great borough of Brooklyn. Please welcome the dog and the jungle. Hi, Kat. Hi, everyone, live from the King's Theater in Brooklyn. This is Pivot from New York Magazine. And the Vox Media Podcast Network, I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway.

And before we start, I want to set a big thank you to our sponsors, Odu and Upwork. Thank you. It's a business management software, Scott. So don't, there are lovely sponsors. We're thrilled to have them. We are taping this show for audio and YouTube distribution. We'll be able to hear it or watch it on Wednesday. Our special guest tonight is Curtis Sliwa, radio host, founder of the Gardening Angels,

and most recently, the Republican candidate for mayor of New York City. Um, at give him a cheer. Come on, Brooklyn. as you know he didn't win which is why he's here with us tonight we didn't even think of inviting Cuomo don't worry we are not Cuomosexuals let's just be clear about that I know this is crazy but one of the things besides you loving New York which is so clear and the fact that you didn't withdraw was I thought took a lot

I bet you had a lot of pressure to withdraw correct well first they started with the mullah schmula and the schadeau the billionaires you know the masters of the universe you think they control well it started at three million oh okay then five then seven then eight then finally ten million dollars cash cash they legitimately offered you ten million dollars to drop out these are legitimate billionaires the masters of the universe yeah and actually i told them no no I said, you know, this is unethical, this is bribery, this could well be criminal. My wife, Nancy, who is the animal rescuer, but also an attorney said, Curtis, you can't be taking these calls.

You got to put them on blast, which I did. I said, any more attempts to bribe me out of the race, I'll be wired up like a Christmas tree, and the DA Alvin Bragg will be listening to your conversations. That ended all the conversation. Excellent, right. But, wait, but there's more. There's more. You see, they take that as an insult.

You know, money rules the world, they think. Right. You know what I always say, Curtis? They're so poor, all they have is money. But go ahead. So then they figure, we can't bribe them. We'll kill them. Oh.

Well, that's been tried before by the guy he's singing Gambinos. That didn't work very well, five hollow point bullets. Yeah. But they knew go at his wife. Because that, I mean, my wife, the most important person in my life that saved me time and time again. Threatened her. Threatened me.

And for the first time in my life, we had to have armed security because they're not used to being told no. And I said, no, no, no. It's not the billionaires, the influencers, or the insiders who are going to determine the next mayor. The people. One person, one vote. They chose Zohan Mandami. The people have spoken. Right.

So was there any minute that you thought about it? It obviously doesn't seem like it. I mean, obviously Eric Adams took the whatever. Oh, he was like Bob Barker. The price was right. One and done. But for them, it's tip money, these billionaires. Yeah.

Ask for $5 billion, launch a meme coin and run for president. But I came into this world with nothing. I leave with nothing, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. we need selfless servants, not self-serving servants. This is what people deserve. So let's talk a little bit because I thought you actually read a pretty joyful campaign, which was really interesting. And I loved you in the middle of those debates because you sort of called out both of them

in a really, I think, relatively respectful way. But I do want to ask first about your cats. This is the part that I loved. And I'm a dog cat person, so I'm pet sexual. Scott's a dog person, just so you're aware. It was talked about a lot. Let me read you a quote what you said about being a cat guy. People think if you're a man with cats, you've gone soft, you're not turgid, you're flaccid.

I really like that you're using these words. They're excellent words. Now since Scott has written a book, its latest book is about masculinity. I'd love to know why do you think it's not manly to have cats? What is your determination? They associate it with what they call cat woman, like my wife, like others. And they do the majority of the rescuing. But they don't expect somebody like me who can hit you so hard. Your mother will feel the vibrations. So I say, oh, what's wrong with

being a cat person? I love cats. You got a problem with that? Oh, no, Curtis. No, no, no, no. In fact, it goes beyond that, pigeons. You know, there's a big debate about pigeons. Some people think they're rats with wings. I do. I and my wife, we love the street pigeons. You know, they it spikes up to try to impale them. So my wife feeds the pigeons in the morning, and people scream at it. What are you doing? You know, they spread disease,

and then I'll come up behind it. You got a problem with my wife feeding the pigeon. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So you did learn something from the Gaudies. Yeah, but you see, you have to have men and women joined in solidarity. Because, look, maybe the greatest man ever to walk the earth, Mahatma Gandhi said,

a society that does not take care of its animals, does not take care of its people. On the way here, taking the two train, the Church Avenue, homeless people in the subways because it's getting colder, emotionally disturbed, many of them veterans. That's a shanda. That's a discraciana. That's a stain on our soul that we don't take care of people in distress because we don't take care of animals in distress. All right.

Scott, that's where you are. Masculinity. Talk about this idea. Well, no, I would just if you had been elected and you were given license to do one thing without approval of the legislature or any other governing body, what is the one policy you would have liked most to see implemented as mayor of New York? Well, just to stick it to my critics, the Masters of the Universe, President Donald Trump, Elon Musk, you know, the trillionaire way that. I've heard of him. I would have filled up every nook corner and cranny of Gracie Mansion with every animal we. could rescue from the shelter who would not be euthanized. Every animal, I believe in no-kill shelters,

no kill shelters, no animals should be put to death. And we do, unfortunately, in New York City and other cities, we do, we can have a society where we do not put animals to death. They are our friends. They are our family members. They are our equals. In New York State, they are thought of in the law is property. They're not property. They are our family members. They are our equals. And when I say, oh, my God, an animal is your equal. What do you have all the furniture upstairs and rearranged in the wrong rooms? No, that's, you see, if we would treat people the way we should be treating animals, the society would be so much better, so much better. So, Scott, what do you think of his idea about cats being manly? Because you're a dog man. I think, any,

Any love for another mammal is wonderful, and I love to, what, is that funny? I'm so over my head right now. Yeah, I think it's wonderful. I don't, I'm a big fan of animals. Can I ask you a question about the Guardian Angels? You found it at 46 years ago, is that correct? 47. 47 years ago.

Up in the Bronx. And I don't know much about it, but my sense is it does give people, you know, younger people, disproportionately men, also women, a sense of protection. And we talk a lot about recently what it means to be a man and trying to create an aspirational view of masculinity. And one of the things we talk about is protection and serving in the purpose of something bigger than yourself. Can you talk a little bit about the type of young people that were joining the guardian

angels and where it intersected with purpose and your observations around young people, specifically young men and what the guardian angels meant to them? Yeah, especially when I started in the Bronx, 1979, if people need to know if you needed to identify a period piece about it, just check out the cult classic, The Warriors. So they thought we were one of the groups in the Warriors. You know, they would get on the train and say, Warriors come out and play. It was filled with gangs. But what you had is dysfunctional young men coming from dysfunctional households. in many instances where there was not a good male role model,

poor male role models in the streets. And I knew we had to create an atmosphere where they could come in and understand that being a man means you don't have a weapon. We don't carry weapons. It's like a phalanx symbol, a weapon, a gun. You got a gun, I got a bigger gun, I got a bazooka, I got a howitzer, hey,

let's face off high noon. No, no, no, no. A real man doesn't need to have a gun. A real man should be protecting the poor, the infirm, the elderly, the children, people who can't defend themselves. And you inculcate these young men that this is your responsibility in this world. Women can take care of themselves. But the elderly, the children, the infirm.

No, no, we have a moral responsibility to go out and risk our life to protect them. Six guardian angels have been killed in the line of duty, three dozen seriously injured. Some people wonder, why do you wear that parade? I wear this beret in their honor. They did it because it was the humanitarian thing to do for people they didn't even know. And that's what our world needs more of. That's great. Thank you. So you got 7% of the vote in this past election to Cuomo's 41.6 and Mamdani's 50.4.

You've been a Republican in one of the bluest cities in America for decades. Talk about it. Is it futile to try to sell any conservative ideas to New Yorkers who keep voting? Democratic? Well, didn't the president say, Curtis Liu, is he a Republican? Well, you're not his kind of Republican. Right. They don't treat me like a Republican. I'm more of a populace. I represent working class people, especially in the outer boroughs. So call me I am. I was proudest to run on the first ever independent line created by my wife, first in electoral history in the United States, protect animals. I got a lot of votes on the protecting animals line. People would say, Curtis, you're a Republican.

I can't vote for you, but you love animals. I can vote for you on that line. In fact, I come from a household. My father and mother, my dad was a merchant seam in 50 years. My mother was a dental technician, hardcore blue-collar Democrats. I'd walk into their bedroom. They had Jesus Christ, you know, Blessed Virgin Mother Mary. They had Pope John Paul because my dad was Polish.

They had Barack Obama and they had JFK. And I said to my dad, dad, you grew up in Chicago. You taught me all about Abraham Lincoln. He kept the country together. I got a $5 a bill. I'll put it on the wall. No Republican ever goes on my wall. That's the party of the privilege, the wealthy, the country club people.

I was inculcated like that. My first vote, 1972, George McGovern against Richard Nixon. That was the counterculture in the 60s. Don't grow your hair long. I grew my hair long. Don't smoke ragweed. I smoke ragweed. Don't go to a concert.

I went to a concert. Don't go to the anti-war rallies. I was there a million strong for the inauguration of Richard Nixon in 1972 in Washington, D.C. You did not trust authority? You didn't trust anybody over 30? And I was raised. Always question authority. Always question authority.

Never accept what they say. And free speech is the answer to hate speech. More free speech, free speech, free speech. So how did you become a Republican then? It's a good question. Speaking of a Shonda to your parents, but go ahead. My dad raised me on Saul Olinsky's Rules for Radicals. Even my dad said, how did you become a Republican?

I taught you rules for radical Saul Alinsky, which I used effectively. I just identified with some of their policies. Right. I really did. But not now. Some, not all. Right. some not all. So New York City

CEOs and billionaires, as you noted, businesses leaders spent more than $40 million to stop Mamdani and you too. Bill Ackman spent $2 million to stop him. And now, of course, he says, if I can help New York City, just let me know what I can do. Grossly billionaire and former GOP

mayoral candidate, John Kasim, I don't care. The Grissides guy, the guy with the shitty supermarket. Once compared Mamdani to Castro, now he's saying to look to move to business of Florida. It doesn't seem like he's going. A lot of these billionaires have said they're leaving many times of four, and then they don't. Often they don't, but they threaten it.

I'm like, see ya, kind of thing. So do you think we'll see that? What do you look for in this administration? And what are you, you were the first person to congratulate the mayor elect? Sure, this is what you do. Right. What do you want to do to help him and New York? What is your Well, first off, in any adversarial situation, I remember playing football. high school. There was a team, Monsignia Fraule in Staten Island, broke my shoulder. I gotta end up shaking a hand of the guy who broke my

shoulder. You know, this is called good sportsmanship. Zohan Mandami and I called them the Zoranistas. They were out there everywhere. They were. They were everywhere. Every time I'd be in the streets of subways, I'd run across the Zoranistas. They worked hard. They earned

this election. They have gotten a mandate. You need to call up and give Congratulations, hope for the best, because if Zoran does well as a mayor, we all do well as a city. You don't want him to fail, but it was also, but there was also a caveat because I said, this is like Le Miserables to the barricades. If you become wine dined and pocket line, like I've seen politicians over there, is this, the only thing difference between politics and organized crime, which I battled in my life, is at the end of the day, you don't have dead bonds.

other than that, it's the same. I see no difference between organized crime and politics. It's a dirty, dirty business. So what are you going to do to help him accomplish that? Well, clearly, you want a two-party system. Anytime you have a uniparty system, it's no good. You need a two-party system. So I will be the voice of the loyal opposition.

You can't stifle my voice because my voice is in the streets, in the subways, and with the peeps. and I wish him the best I hope he has good appointments but I know what's going to happen they're going to try to institutionalize him he's a rebel with a cause but watch how the institution

tries to swallow him and then all of a sudden they all make their deals like Ackman what a fake phony fraudulent for Gasey that billionaire right I I yes and then he's still

after after just attacking Zoran and attacking me unmercifully, morning, noon, and night, you would think, okay, you know Wall Street, you know hedge funds, but you know nothing about the streets, nothing about politics. Plus, you have a midlife crisis that you think you're a professional tennis player and you bum rush into tournaments and people boo you out. It's like, guys, stay in your lane. Oh, no, every day. He's the first one in line. See, the billionaire's always back channel. That's why they call them hedge fund monsters. They figure out the hedge. Oh, Zoran, I really love. I really love.

you, Zoram, whatever you need. Meantime, they got their Pierre Dite in Manhattan. They have their main residence down in Palm Beach, Florida. They got to figure it out. Blue-collar working class people, you know what we have in Italian? We have a word for that. Ugats. You know what that is?

Ugats. Bugis. Yeah. Bupquez. Yeah. Yes. Bangul. You got that.

That's what my mother used to do, Francesca. You got arrested again, Curtis. Oh. Van Gould. Right. So, Scott, you ask the last, this is fantastic. I'm so happy. We're going to get to this show, but I may be voting for you.

But I don't live in New York, but I, last question. Cats. Now, so you've dealt with and have been involved with trying to police crime and protect the, I don't know, the disability. advantage of the vulnerable. Any thoughts on what do you, how would you describe the state of crime in the city as it got, what do you think of the trends and what do you think of the NYPD and generally policing? Just thoughts generally on crime in the city and what you would have done as mayor to try and improve relationships between the community, the police force, and crime.

Well, this is not the police department. I grew up. Remember, I got arrested 81 times when I for on the Guardian Angels. They would give me a wooden shampoo and a concrete facial. I'll never forget a sergeant on the number four train who arrested me and I say, what's the charge charge? And he said, inhaling and exhaling. And then they lost me on Rikers Island for a few days. And let's face it, I was staying in a dormitory with 40 guys who didn't love me. So I had to stay, I had to stay awake with one eye open. V don't fail me now. So I know what it's like to be on the abuse side, but I also know the police department is different than when I was growing up. It's a minority majority police department now. The minorities are the

majority now. It has changed drastically. The one thing we need to give the police, though, is they have this fancy term, qualified immunity. It was really the insurance we give to all civil servants, there's 320,000 civil servants, so that if they get sued for anything they did, we're culpable the taxpayers. They stripped that from the police in 2021. And so they're very tepid. They don't get involved. They don't respond. And you need a responsive police department. I know what it's like when they are abusive. Stop and frisk towards the latter part under Bloomberg was totally excessive because he was playing a numbers game. And even the PBA chief at the time Patty Lynch said, you're demanding that we have a quota of five stop and frisk said,

you're killing us in the community, and they did. They don't care because it's quotas. Just like now with ICE, they have a quota, $3,000 a day. When they were going after the drug dealers, the bad hombres, the sex traffickers, the narco terrorists in the beginning, hey, people were applauding them. Then somebody in D.C. puts a quota. Quotas are always horrible because these are people. You don't do that.

If you have bad people out there who are committing crimes, everyone is entitled to due process, whether you're legal, whether you're a migrant, whatever it is. We have a due process. There's no shortcuts. There's no easy passes. So I think maybe you understand why a lot of Republicans don't like this. I can see that very clearly.

I'm vying for your vote. That's a compliment. That's a compliment. Them having masks. You never had masks. You never did that. What do you think of ICE having masks? I don't like it because in America you need to be able to identify who the people are.

Remember now they give you a business cost. You know, police officer has to have a business card to give because they cover up their shields. I remember all the tricks. After I get a few wooden shampoos and I was like dizzy and I'm looking for the nameplate, it was gone. Everybody's got to play by the rules. But I also realize that some of them get doxed, some of them get threatened, some of them are on the run constantly. We have to find the balance. Well, judges don't get masks.

Excuse me? Judges don't get masks. politicians don't journalists don't get masks no so then again some demonstrators wear masks too and I happen to know some of them you know they don't want to be identified they shouldn't be wearing that take the masks away I'd say let's take all the masks away who you are is whom you are you don't need to fear photo recognition technology I know a lot of people are fearful of that technology but let's get rid of the masks you you have a right to demonstrate you have a right to be a law enforcement official, you should be identified. We got to get it back to, I would say, a balanced

area where everybody's rights are respected. Right now they're not. I have one last very quick question. What do you say to Andrew Cuomo what he should be doing now? Andrew, ascend to me to Siu provenos Faccim. That snake will slither back under his rock in the Hamptons, hang out with his billionaire friends. He ran the most dystopian campaign I could ever remember. And that's saying a lot. Every time he would speak, I would listen like at three o'clock in the morning because that's the time I would generally break the campaign. And I would say, I feel soiled. Like I have to take a hot shower. I mean, this guy was like a political zombie. thought he's dead and he keeps coming back.

He's more of an older than ever before. Could you be any nastier and meaner? And by the way, if you were 30 and younger, he'd be very flirty. If you were a senior citizen, don't let him put you in a long-term nursing home care unit because you'd be dead. He was slapping fannies and killing grannies and he should never see the light of day. All right. On that note, thank you, Curtis.

Curtis, Lee-Walk, everybody. Thank you. Everybody, everybody, Curtis. One more. He's close to getting my vote. I don't live here again, but no. But still, he's fantastic.

I love a person who loves New York, and that's the key part. And that's what we wanted to show here, actually. Okay, we need to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll get to some news. Support for the show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder

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Try O-D-for-free at O-D-O-O-O-D-O-O-com. talk about the shutdown, which looks like it's close to ending, eight senators in the Democratic Caucus, none of whom faced re-election, voted with the GOP to advance the plan that funds the government through January only. Snap, I know, all right, we're going to discuss it. Snap benefits would also be restored, although the Trump administration still fighting the battle through SCOTUS and the lower court. In exchange, there's a promise of a Senate vote in December on extending expiring Obamacare subsidies. Mike Johnson just said, didn't promise any vote whatsoever, so that's an issue. The House and the Senate still need to pass the final

bill. Scott, as you put it on threads, we're winning, we're winning, we surrender. Is there a silver lining here? Well, sometimes it's darkest before it's pitch black. This is fucking pitch black. This is such a, just as I began hallucinating that Senator Schumer had these two spherical objects between his legs, I am brought back to reality that we are, as Democrats, not worthy of representing people who make sacrifices. Surrender, this is a set. Let me just distill how I see it, and I'm curious what you think. We put a lot of people through a lot thinking that sacrifice might pay off, like any

battle. There's no moral clarity, but we might have to make huge sacrifices such that we can ultimately have a better nation. And we folded. And I think the world is driven on incentives. And what are the incentives now of the Republicans? And that is their general Zod and the Superman movie and that they've noticed, or Zod has noticed that Superman's weakness or the Democrats' weakness is that they actually care. And that the more mendacious they get, the faster world fold. So what happens in the next confrontation? So essentially what happened here is we put the American people through 40 days of real trauma for dick. Literally nothing. Literally nothing. And this is just so, I find it incredibly upsetting. Even the machinations around

getting the people who are not politically vulnerable to vote, yes, because they knew the American people we're going to be very upset by this. So we have done nothing but put the American people through 40. There are some, you know, we were talking about it last night in Boston that they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory after that amazing week electorally, where voters were pro-democrats and anti-Trump and anti-Republicans. But there are a couple of people who I respect, Tim Miller and others, who are positing that this is actually a trap.

It's a strategic trap by Democrats. Democrats. Now, let me walk it out. Go ahead. Okay. The idea is two things. One is that when Congress returns, the representative from Arizona, who's a Democrat, will get seated and they'll release the Epstein files. And apparently they're pretty bad, from what I understand. I mean, the pictures alone. So that's one thing. They get the Epstein files released. That's an important, I'm just saying, I'm just telling you. The second thing is the Republicans were never going to extend the benefits anyway. And these are not what I think, but this is what they've articulated. And so this puts, once the Republicans

refuse to pass it, it hangs around their neck for good. And they own it completely. Now, on the other hand, you could say, we said American people, we're here for one, and one important issue only health care. We're here to protect your health care and keep the cost low. Oh, we're kidding. Right? That's what I think most people feel at this point. But there are other ideas that this is a strategic brilliance of hanging it around their necks going forward. I don't agree with that. I think this group of senators who don't have anything to risk just decided to just take a dive. And the others who may have been for this got protected so they could vote no, including Chuck Schumer, who I think orchestrated the entire thing from what I can tell.

Yeah, look, the American people, the real politic of it is the American people prefer strong and wrong versus weak and right. Which is Bill Clinton's phrase. Exactly. And I see this no different as if we were to say, well, the Russians will actually bomb and shell maternity wards, so we need to surrender. I don't see how it's any different. This is war. And the notion that somehow, oh, but way, the free gift with purchase is we're going to get the Epstein files, we told the American public, and this is one of the things I don't like about the Democratic Party, I think releasing the Epstein files is important. I think it's going to happen. But at the end of the the day, the Democrats opt for social virtue versus actually impacting the material and mental

well-being of average Americans. And the basis of well-being right now in our country, happiness, this isn't going to surprise anyone. I struggle with anger and depression, so I decided to write a book on happiness. And happiness isn't solely a function of what you have. It's absence of fear of things being taken from you. And in Norway, or Sweden or any of the G7 countries, six of the G7 countries that have socialized medicine, which we absolutely need in this country. When your wife is diagnosed with lung cancer, it doesn't mean you're going bankrupt. 40% of American households have medical or dental debt.

Can you imagine, as a mother and a father, you got a 17-year-old at home in screaming tooth pain, and you think, I've got to borrow money to get a root canal for my kid. Almost half of American households struggle with medical debt. And we told them, we're going to put a lot. of people through a lot of pains such that we can prevent your insurance premiums from doubling, and then we fucking caved. Stop the gymnastics, this was a huge failure on our part. AOC, I will give you $100,000 in the next 48 hours if you announce your primary in Schumer. Enough already. Okay, all right, we're going to hold you to that. So, what goes next? What happens?

next. They're going to pass this. They're going to wait, push it off again and not govern until January. It's, of course, all about the midterms, all the strategyry around the midterms, presumably is what's happening here. And who's going to wear this mantle? Because at this point, most people were blaming, including independence, Trump for all of this, the Trump, the Trump administration, the Republicans. Same thing with affordability. Same thing with the economy. Like some of these new polls coming out are devastating to Republicans, so as Curtis might say, why not give them a wooden, I mean, a wooden shampoo. I love that phrase. I'm going to use it all the time. Does that mean a baton to the head?

Yes, a baton. Hello. By the way, never been arrested, arrested twice. True story. By the way, you don't need to shampoo. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I had to do it. Who wants to hear a lesbian marriage joke? That's coming up. That's coming up. You'll have a chance. Go ahead. Look, I think at the end of the day, we're being too cute and too political by half. We had an opportunity here, and we made real sacrifices, and we were in the midst of a real battle that it costs a lot of people a lot. You know, our idea, I've been communicating with Democrats around this, and my big idea to put more pressure on them, I thought we were winning.

44% of Americans held the Republicans responsible, 33% of Democrats, the rest were TBD. We were winning this fight. And my idea, and it was getting some traction, I got some calls on this, was the air traffic control system was being strained. They were going to shut down 20% of flights before Thanksgiving. I did the analysis, and it was pretty straightforward. 16% of tail numbers leaving airports in the United States are private planes carrying less than 1% of passengers.

You ground private planes, you want to see real, pressure put on representatives and senators. They're doing it. They announced they were doing it. Don't need to anymore. They don't need to on Monday. That's right. We were winning this fight. What, I mean, we didn't check back when we got to Berlin. We made huge sacrifices. We didn't step back and say, oh, we're winning this war. Maybe it's time for us to surrender. This makes no fucking sense to me, Kara. I can't wrap my hand around it. I don't care how many bloggers or anchors from MSNBC try to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. We fucked up.

All right. On that note, speaking of fuck-ups, in other Trump administration updates, President Trump has granted pardons to an array of people accused of trying to overturn the 2020 election, including former lawyer and former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani. Who's next? Jelaine Maxwell? By the way, most of his judgments are in state courts, so don't worry, Rudy will be paying for the rest of his life.

but they're pre-giving people all these because they're expecting to lose and they're expecting more problems like Sidney Powell, all the others. As I told you, several Trump administration people who are rather pleasant at lunch, let me say, although I understand they're terrible snakes, as Curtis said, were like, I'm asking for a pardon to me,

and I was like, why? And they're like, just in case. They're like, even if they've done nothing, They feel that they're going to be, this was an astonishing number. This is 70 pardons. I remember once we had, when I first moved to New York, we had an instance where there was someone threatened workplace violence. And so I called a lawyer and I said, you need to bring the cops in.

And he said, okay, and I'd had almost no interaction with the man hadn't these, DA's office or the police force. And they said something really serious. He said, you need to be thoughtful about this. And we'll come if you call us. That's our job. But once you get the law involved, it is a crucial. prude, blunt instrument that lacks nuance. And that always stuck with me because when you think

about the law, there are a lot of people who get off scot-free and shouldn't. And I'm bothered by the idea of these pardons of these people who are criminal. I think it's corrupt. I think it sends the wrong signal. What I'm more worried about is that there are somewhere between 10 and 30,000 and people who have files under clemency review, where somebody from the Freedom Project or another worthwhile organization has said that because of the crudeness of the law, you have people behind bars who, quite frankly, stole a car antenna, and because it was their third strike, they've served 30 years of a life sentence. And there are a bevy of really talented, wonderful legal professionals working on these clemency cases. And now all of those have been

shoved aside because all of our resources are trying to figure out how to let out basically this orgy of corruption of people who are favorable to the administration. So, yeah, these criminals getting out, that bothers me. What bothers me more is it's distracting intention and resources from the tens of thousands of people who he's not letting out, who are worthy of a real thoughtful examination around clemency. This has made a mockery of a really wonderful component of our justice system where we recognize the judicial system

is a crude, blunt tool and occasionally we get it wrong. It's a paper play kind of thing, obviously, and they're letting out some pretty heinous people. And if they let out Jolaine Maxwell, me and Curtis

are going down to Texas. That's all I have to say. She's a monster. She's a monster. Anyway, we need to take another break, everyone. And we come back. We'll talk about women

ruining the workplace. Okay. Support for the show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need.

Odo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and design to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business.

Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try O-D-for-free at O-D-O-D-O-O-O-com. Scott, we're back in Brooklyn. The New York Times is getting heat for a piece Ross Duthut, opinion piece, conversation. Did women ruin the workplace? My wife calls him Ross asshat, but that's nothing. here and they're there. The title has been changing, has changed, I think, three times. It's now

did liberal feminism ruin the workplace, but not before a lot of meming. They keep changing the headline, which is hysterical, including one person on threads that joke that the Times had changed the headline again to deliberal feminism runes slapping abroad on the caboose. That made me laugh. I love the word caboose. Can I slap you on the caboose? As if you don't already, you know, a little saucy minks. Okay. Scott, I thought, I listened to the entire thing, and the two people he interviewed, he did a terrible job, FYI, as an interviewer.

It was insecure and unfunny interview, but, and badly done in general, but as a professional, but the people he interviewed were like, they just cannot stop talking about woke. They are unqualified to talk about it. They were as reductive as it gets. They were a mile wide and a foot deep. It was terrible. The whole thing was terrible. as a piece of content.

That said, it attracted a lot of attention. But, Scott, did I ruin the workplace? What did you think about this? I don't think you're paying any attention to it, but I don't know. I vote, Mike, the companies I've started, I've been in San Francisco and New York. 27 of the 35 people who have become, I did the analysis, who had become millionaires from my companies, were either LGBTQ or women. I started, and I realized in virtue signaling, but it wasn't intentional.

It wasn't like I thought I needed to advance people of a certain group. Just an unlock in the early 90s when I started my first company was giving some very talented people who had exited the corporate workforce and flexibility, which drew in a disproportionate number of women. So I don't, you know, I don't, I feel like the marketplace is actually working here. 47% of our full-time workers or female, sea level executives have gone from 18% to 27% 7% female in the last 10 years, meaning in about two decades, 110% are going to be female. I mean, it's on the right trajectory. I want to be clear, I don't, I don't think it's, I'm not sure it's ever going to be 50-50.

And I think equality of opportunity does not always equal equality of outcomes. But I've said this, and I realize I'm pandering a little bit, but I believe this. I think the best thing, I think a lot about struggling young men and the lack of economic opportunity and how it creates a disproportionate impact on their self-esteem and also it creates a lot of stress in the home because I still do think our society puts a disproportionate amount of pressure on men to be economically viable. And I think the best thing we could do for young men right now

would be universal child care. Because if you think about, I've unfortunately gone down this rabbit hole, if you walk into a morgue, five of the people who have died by suicide, for men. And the zone, quote, unquote, of self-harm among men is most prevalent the year after they get divorced. And young people get divorced, by the way, 70% of divorce filings are by women, and young people get divorced not because of infidelity or lack of shared values, but because of economic strain. And if you want to live in a place like New York, or if you're really aggressive and you want to be in a high-cost city, the reality is you probably need to have a

dual-income home, and not having child care, affordable child care, just puts tremendous stress on the marriage, which disproportionately, in my view, impacts actually, or as much men, because what the research shows is despite the cartoon of a woman in her 30s who didn't find romantic love and is crying and listening to Melissa Etheridge looking out the window. Oh, my God. With cats. It's Taylor Swift now, but go ahead. That is a cartoon.

There's really wonderful research that is pretty conclusive, and it's the following. Men need relationships more than women. So if you want to invest and lift up men, young men who are struggling, quite frankly, you want to remove economic anxiety from families such that they stay together. And probably the easiest way to do that, which would create scale and affordability, would be to become the last or finally join the other G6 of the G7 and have universal child. So I think we need to frame it not as a woke thing, not as a female thing, but as something that would really help lift up young man.

Or a binary thing, because it's always this binary thing. And I think that creates natural fighting, right, that we're in this struggle. Now, absolutely throughout my career, let me just say, you know, I tell you things, and you're like, I didn't know that sometimes. Definitely as a woman, you face all kinds of fucking nonsense every day of the week. When I came back from my pregnancy, I was sort of the top tech reporter at the Wall Street journal and I'm not going to name this editor but because he's retired and probably dead possibly dead um and i think i think dead actually um and and he said so you're going to need more

time he said that to me like you're going to need more time now and i said for what i need silence and i was like what do i need more time for what's changed and he's silent and i said you have three children and you didn't need more time did you why would i need more time what's their fucking business of what time I need. And he sort of stared at me and couldn't deal with it. And I said, if you say this to another woman again, I will sue your fucking life back to yesterday. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so it was a really interesting moment. So we dealt with all kinds of nonsense. But to set it up as this woman man thing, to me, is like wildly offensive, like wildly, and not just wildly offensive, because I'm not like one of these people who gets

particularly offended. What it is is, is it's just stupid. It's just, it doesn't make a better workplace. But that applies to the other side of the argument, and that is the genders have done a great job of convincing themselves it's the other gender's fault. Right. And if you look at, for example, Title IX, when it was 4060 male, excuse me, female to male in colleges, and we recognize colleges as a tremendous upward lubricant for income inequality, we weighed in with Title IX. And when Title IX was passed, 97% of our elected representatives were male, which is sexism itself, but it also shows it's not men against women. It's what I'd call liberal versus illiberal thoughts. There are a lot of women who support the patriarchy. Fifty-four percent of white women voted for Trump. So this isn't

about men versus women. The greatest alliance in history is the alliance between men and women women, and I would argue specifically liberal men and liberal women and liberal women. But we keep couching it as though men are against this and women are for it. And all men are illiberal and all women are liberal. That's just not true. Yeah, it's a team approach. And I think that's Dangerous. Anyway, it's a stupid thing. I watched it for you. Don't. It's stupid. A couple of quick things, and then we're going to get to audience questions. The Supreme Court just turned down a request to consider overturning its landmark decision to legalize same-sex marriage. The court declined the petition filed by Kim Davis, the former Kentucky County Clerk, who refused to issue same-sex, too bad, Kim, same-sex licenses because of her religious beliefs. She has to now pay the gay couple $365,000. for her thing. The good news,

and by the way, can I just say in the coverage of the media, it's not gay marriage, it's marriage. So, like, let's just, it's the law of the land.

The good news now is we don't need to get married now, Scott, I thought we might have to. So let's look at a pick. This isn't my opportunity. Let's look at a pick of my lovely wife

in the before. That's our second date. I know. She's really good looking. So, hold on. So, So my understanding is lesbians get divorced at a much greater rate. So did you bring a U-Haul to your second day?

We look good. No, we didn't. Oh, don't do the U-Haul joke. Straight couples get married for kids, gay couples for aesthetics, lesbian couples get married for that mid-century modern couch they found on Pinterest. And when they get divorced, who gets the couch, who gets the Subaru? It's who has the loyalty card name at R.E.I. We get along very well compared to straight people.

My ex-wife is amazing. Her name's Megan Smith. She's terrific. How it ended with this, second date. Go. Ah. That's our four beautiful children, and also with Megan. That's Louis, Alex, who's nine feet tall.

Lesbians have very tall children. Can I tell my really nice marriage story? Yeah, okay. Go ahead. So I was living in San Francisco, lovely woman, my wife, and I came to New York. I'd never been here before, and people were drinking until 4 a.m. And trying to figure out a way to party and make more money. And I went back and said, I want a divorce.

You can have all of our friends. True story. Did she still talk to you? We're good friends. She was like. Anyway, we can't get married now. I know you're disappointed. What's that?

Are you disappointed? We can't get married because I would have had to marry. We could get married? No. What is it not Utah? move to Utah. No, we're not moving to Utah. I like Amanda. We are never getting married.

You keep, this is her thing. She keeps claiming we'll never have sex and yet she brings it up every seven fucking minutes. Seriously. Seriously. I would have to take so much ketamine. It would be like so much ketamine.

It's like a taffy pole at this point. Just don't worry about it. Anyway, anyway, we're moving. Moving on. Can I ask you a last question? We're going to take questions from the audience now. But who is your, Scott has a book called Notes on Being a Man. It's number one on Amazon. We're hoping it's the number one book. We gave away some at the beginning. Who, besides me, who is your male role model? Obviously me. I could ask that a lot and I don't have a good answer. I think there's wonderful, you know, the dude that gets up, works hard.

absorbs more complaints than he gives, tries to create surplus value, notices people, good citizen, good patriot. There's fantastic role models. How about in your life? In my life? You know, I've had a lot of nice men when my, when I was clear I became or when people noticed it was just me and my mom, I had a lot of nice men get involved in my life. I had a guy across the hall come across and say, hey, me and my girlfriend are going horseback riding, do you want to come with us? And he took me horseback riding.

I had a coach get involved in my life. I had a scout troop leader. I was a boy scout. I wasn't very cool as a young person. I know that's hard to imagine. Buy me my baseball equipment, because he could just pick up that we didn't have a lot of money. I had a lot of wonderful, so not celebrities,

but I had a lot of really wonderful men in my life. And this is sort of a, a, a call-out and then ask, the single point of failure for when a boy comes off the tracks is when he loses a male role model. There's a lot of research, and that is we have more single-parent homes than any country in the world, and it's always the mom, they're 82% to 80% of the time. And what's interesting is girls in single-parent homes have the same outcomes, same rates of college attendance, same income.

Whereas boys, the moment he loses a male role model through death, divorce, or abandonment, at that moment becomes more likely to be incarcerated than graduate from college. And so getting men involved in a young boy's life is absolutely critical. And unfortunately, men my age and men in general aren't stepping up. And as someone who mentors young men, what I can tell you is that it is so easy to add value to a young man's life. They make such terrible decisions. I literally had to convince a kid 48 hours ago that he cannot survive on pineapple juice

in creatine. And you just start asking a series of questions and just hanging out and just if they see that a good man trying to live a virtuous life sees value in him, it's a huge difference. Absolutely. In some, they're just good men everywhere. We just need to step up. If we want better men, we need to be better men. Apply to be a big brother.

Yeah, I would agree. So just me. I'm your big thing. I'll give you my list. Who's your list? Louis Swisher Alex Swisher Your son

Saul Swisher though he's on the bubble today No, Saul, so she's just four He's turning four on Sunday Happy birthday, Saul My brothers My two brothers I know one better than the other But they're both very impressive

My brother's Jeff and David My nephew's here, he's amazing Will Swisher is an astonishing young man And and Walt Musberg and you I have to say You're one of my You've done a lot for my kids Actually for my old

especially Alex. He's been, Scott doesn't brag about it, but he's been an astonishing help to him. Alex really looks up to him, even more than me, which is really irritating. He's always like, you know what Scott said this week? I'm like, yeah, but I kind of said that. And he's like, yeah, but Scott, like he does it. So it's a real, it's really important and it changed his life for sure. But just a comment on that, I don't think masculinity or femininity are sequestered to people born as males as females. I think Kara demonstrates fantastic masculinity. I've said before, close to my close male friends are very feminine. I'm drawn to men who are more nurturing. And so when I think of masculinity, I think it can be an outstanding code and kind of guardrails

for a young man who is more likely to feel easier leaning into those attributes. But these are wonderful attributes, masculinity and femininity that can be adopted or not sequestered to anyone born as male or female. The point of my book is young men need guardrails and sort of a code. This can be a tremendous code. And then we need to celebrate. both femininity and masculinity. In my view, there's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's cruelty, there's criminal behavior, and there's abuse. Those couldn't be any less masculine.

Let's celebrate the wonderful attributes of being a provider, a protector, and a procreator, and lift our young men up and ask them to get more involved and really use masculinity as a code, which requires a commitment and discipline and generosity and a kindness practice. But let's stop demonizing it. because I think there's a lot of young men out there that feel absolutely lost and are getting a series of mixed messages. And quite frankly, just don't know how to behave.

All right. And that's Scott Galley. You should read his book. It's great. So we need to take another quick break. And when we come back, we're going to take questions from the audience. So bring some good ones last night in Boston.

Two people, there was a marriage proposal. So you better keep up here, Brooklyn. All right. She said yes, by the way. Support for the show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odu comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need.

Odo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling. just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try O-D-4-4-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-O-O-O-D-com. Scott, we're back recording live from New York City in the lovely King's Theater in Brooklyn. This is an amazing audience. We're going to get to audience questions, and we're excited to answer them.

You're going to come down to the left or the right of the aisles. Please be considering, keep them very short because we want to get to as we try to answer all the questions. You can ask anything you want, but it should be. short is what I'll ask you, so I will cut you off. So let's start. Let's go. Hey, Scott and Kara. I'm so grateful to be here, Julia from Philadelphia. Hi. Hi, Julia. Seems to be in the air. Yeah. I left you a voicemail asking for some marriage advice for my friend Meg here, big fan, who just got engaged. Oh, wow. To whom? To Dane, also a pivot lister and a fellow tech worker, SaaS, works on websites, a salesperson, and they met at work, which seems to be one of the

places to meet. One in three relationships begin at work and 99.9% are consensual. So marriage advice, I don't know, Scott. I mean, both of us have been divorced, so I don't suspect we're the best experts. I feel like I don't act like me

sometimes, I guess. I would say probably kindness and it's called active listening, I think, like not like listening. I know, but it's correct. This is why lesbians have a higher rate of divorce because they're They're both listening.

No, I... They're both listening. No, no, what I mean is then. Trust me, dudes. Just don't listen. I'll just... Okay. I don't have any advice except really...

I'm still waiting for the calendar where my ex-wife of 20 years says we need to talk. Okay. What I think you should do is be kinder to your spouse. I just, I feel like I could be a lot kinder. And sometimes I get, like, busy or whatever. And I think some days I really have got to think harder about being kind of. kinder would be. Can I give advice to the dude? I'm not qualified to give advice to you. Is there

okay if I give advice to your fiancé, the husband? Is he here? I've given three best man speeches. They're always the same. Here's my advice, three things. One, and this is the biggest unlock in my life. Put away the scorecard. Decide what kind of husband you want to be and live to that, live to that benchmark. Don't keep score. Don't think, oh, her parents were in town, and I spent time with her dad. She needs to spend time with my dad. I did this. Just decide what kind of husband you want to be and hold yourself to that standard because you will always naturally inflate your contribution and diminish theirs. So just say, put a vision for yourself. This is the kind of husband I want to be and hold yourself to that standard. Two, always express sexual desire and affection.

Sex and affection say, I choose you and you are singular. And regardless of the fact we're in broken and I'm going to say it, I think women want to be wanted. I think sex and affection are wonderful. And the third thing, and this is probably the most important, never let a woman be cold or hungry. Pashmina's and power bars at all times. All right. That's a spat.

Thank you for that question. And good luck. Good luck. We think it's great. We love marriage because we've done it so much between us. Right here. Hello. Thank you for doing this wonderful live shows.

I flew from Miami to go and see you. guys oh wow thank you so mine is a parenting question slightly different we'll come to miami next we'll come to please so parenting questions slightly different for each of you care i have a five-year-old jolumbia little girl at home with my husband um how are you are you doing anything different with your little girl and by the way my favorite host that you've ever had on your podcast was your son what a wonderful thoughtful boy and so you're doing anything different between the two groups of kids and now a girl and for scott i've heard you say few times that you would have loved to have a girl. If you would have had a girl,

is there anything that you think you would have done different? Yeah, he still could. I thought about this a lot. I thought this about when we had a daughter. I have two older sons and a younger son. And first of all, she runs the fucking show, like of all of them. She runs all the boys. She has a lot of what they call executive function. And she's also, what's incredible is all my kids, everyone's like, all your kids are all so cisgendered. It's crazy. It's like, I was like, is there any day them's here? No. Like, she's very girly. She's very this. So I kind of just lean in with all the kids. And the only thing I worry about is how there's going to be a day when she's going to feel lesser than. I know it, right? Someone's going to say something to her.

My got, my older boys are always like, I'm the best thing ever all the time. Like, they turn in a shitty essay and I go, this isn't very good. They're like, I think it's good. And I was like, why? Because it sucks. And they had a confidence that was born of being the way the world is to them. And so I worry a little bit about that. But one of the things I do with her is I try to, um, and all of them, I try to make them feel like what they're, the choices they're making are good choices and I support them. I don't run them down. I don't tell them they're stupid. I don't like rag on them. Um, I just feel like they're the greatest things ever. And I think they feel, and I actually think that. It's not a fake thing. So I think I'll do this pretty much

the same thing with her, although the K-pop Demon Hunters thing, I'm about right to fucking hear with that. But Saul is the same way. And oddly enough, Saul, I wanted to put on soda pop for people who know, they know. And he's like, no, only the girl band. I'm like, success. Like, he likes the girl band, the Huntrix over whatever those other ones were called. What did it call? Sasha, whatever. Okay, they don't like them. Anyway, Scott? So this is a New York story, but it's not a great one. I was living in faculty housing at NYU, two kids under the age of three. And I've always been very, very anxious economically. I didn't grow up with money. It's just something that's always haunted me, like a fear of not having

money. And my three going on four-year-old applied to seven different preschools. And for the right to pay $58,000 to play with blocks. And we applied to seven schools. At the time, my son was speech delayed, and the story ends well, he's now doing exceptionally well. But he got rejected from all seven schools. And I remember thinking, like, I've been single and an entrepreneur my whole life.

I'm used to rejection, but not from my four-year-old. And we left the city and moved to Miami, actually just north of there at Delray Beach, where we cut our cost of living in half. But that was one of the reasons I didn't want to have more kids was we had two wonderful little boys and I was economically, not strained, but economically anxious. And it's one of my biggest regrets.

I didn't know at that time I would end up having more money. But I really, my biggest regret and my partner wants to strangle me because she wanted a third and I said, no, let's cash out while we're ahead. But yeah, if I, are you the same? I really wish I'd had more kids. I have four. Yes, I actually wish I had more kids. I do.

I wish I had gotten pregnant a second time. I had Louie, and I love being pregnant. And 60% of 30-year-olds, 40 years ago, used to have a kid in the house. Now it's 27%. I don't think it's because young people don't want kids. I think it's because they're responsible and I think I don't want to have the economic strain that this inflation economy that keeps transferring money from young to old. but I don't have a lot of regrets.

I've had a charm life. I really regret not having a third. Yeah. I wish I had six kids. I do. I'd like a Brady bunch, for sure. And then all I know is I'm thrilled that I have one more child than J.D. Vance. But he like lectured me how liberals don't believe in the future.

And I was like, well, you have half the kids I do at the time. So I believe twice as much. And if you need any help, lesbians are good at having children. Go ahead. Hi. I'm Yossi from Mexico and you guys rock My question is

Given the negative sentiment around AI And like it seems like we're kind of Sleepwalking into Armageddon Why are we actually doing that? That's number one Okay And two, what is the steel man case for optimism In this AI driven world?

Sorry, that is not like we're going to cure cancer It's a great question I interviewed Jeff Hinton today for about two hours So he is obviously the Godfather of the AI. He's been calling, he's not a doom scroller, like about a doomer. But I interviewed him for a long time today. And he's, of course, the one that's in his Nobel Prize. He won for his essentially pushing AI forward.

He talked about he's been the one warning. And it was quite a dire prediction, largely because he's been asked about it. I think my big issue is why is it being run by seven companies of heterogeneous nature, of huge power? driven by politics and driven by the ability to hand Donald Trump money to build this ridiculous, grotesque ballroom. This is not how we should be running AI. And so one of the things he said that struck me, and I'll just leave you, that there's all kinds of things. We should have all kinds of regulations and laws. It will not hinder us against China to have basic guardrails about things. We don't want killer drones. Probably agree on that, right? That autonomous killer

drones. We don't want AI to be able. He was talking about getting the stuff we're in alignment with globally, we should start passing rules about. And there's dozens of things we're all in alignment for. The things we won't be in alignment are weaponry, are misinformation because China kind of wants it. We kind of want it, right? We want to be able to misinform each other's populace in order to win whatever war we're in. And one of the things he said is the thing I would like to have happened, and it was really interesting that he said this, was a maternal, Not AI going to kill us. AI is going to try to control us.

The AI is going to try to take control, all of which could happen, by the way. And he's just laying it out. We've got to build an AI that has a maternal. He used the word maternal, which was really interesting, has a maternal sense. And he says the one relationship we should think about is a mother and a baby, right? And so we're the baby and AI is the mother. And he said, that's a relationship. the baby controls the mother for all kinds of hormonal, all kinds of parental reasons, all kinds

of emotional reasons. We have to train the AI to think of us as the baby, and they will do anything to take care of us. And I thought that was, it's totally possible. And the stuff, I'm working on a secret CNN documentary, which I always call it the secret one, but it's coming out in April. And it's great. And it's about longevity. And one of the things, AI in health care is going to be mind-blowingly amazing. You will not die of cancer because of AIDS. So so many of the applications are astonishing and so many of them are disturbing. And I think Jeff is one of the great thinkers that we have to do it without having to pay off Donald fucking Trump on AI, that we again as citizens have to rise up around safety, around guardrails,

especially with young kids. I've interviewed a lot of these parents whose kids have committed suicide, I believe, because of the AI chatbots. And so we have to start at a place, like of safety and then move on from that. there. That's a long-winded answer to that. So you're smart to ask what could go right because as a species we have a tendency to catastrophize because we want to protect against the downside. But from an investment or a society standpoint, the optimists over the medium and long term have vastly outperformed the pessimists. So the steel man or the what could go right optimistic view of AI is the following.

And that is every technology in history has ultimately created growth in the economy. And if it's enduring technology, it's created more jobs than it's destroyed. Everyone was convinced automation was going to decimate labor in the auto industry. And in the short run, it did clear out some jobs in the factory floor, but we didn't anticipate heated car seats or car stereos, and now there's more people working in the automotive industry. The steel man is that AI creates all this incredible margin and new opportunities in health care, in robotics, in senior care, and that it creates thousands of new startups that create employment. There'll be different jobs, more higher-skilled.

Some people will lose their job. The biggest fear I have about AI is not something we talk a lot about, and that is loneliness. And I worry that 10% or 10 companies which represent 20%, excuse me, 40% of the S&P by market cap, have unwittingly but observably connected the success of our economy, right now. Our economy is a giant bet on AI right now. If we didn't have those 10 companies, the NASDAQ would be flat, GDP would be flat. So we're a giant bet on AI. And essentially,

these companies have an economic interest, invested interest in evolving a new asocial, asexual species of young male. And I worry that with synthetic life-like porn and relationships and friends and mentors, we're going to slowly but surely start to sequester young people, specifically young men who are having trouble establishing relationships are more doper aggressive, that we're going to continue to see a trend along the following. Men age 20 to 30 now in America are spending less time outdoors than prison inmates. And I worry slowly but surely you're going to stop seeing young men at things like this because they think, I'm not attaching to work. I don't have money. I'm not willing to endure the rejection and the effort and to demonstrate excellence to establish a

romantic partnership, and I have what feels like 4K life-like porn at home. So I think we have to be very careful. No synthetic relationships for anyone under the age of 18. I think similar to content, any minors should have an entirely different set of AI rules, no social media for anyone under the age of 16, and no phones in schools. Loneliness and sequestering young people from society is our biggest risk of AI. All right. Thank you so much for all your questions. We love, we love, love Love our fans. Now, we're going to say goodbye. You can catch selected shows

from this tour on YouTube and in your podcast feeds. That's all the time we've got for today. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Laren Aemann, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Your Todd Entering this episode, Jim Mackle, edited the video.

Thanks also to Drew Bros. Misaverro, Dan Ceylon, and Kay Gallagher. Thanks also to Trish, Harnato, Kelly Schwanter, Kaelin Lynch, and Nico Alvarez, Nishakoraz, Vox Media, is Edgar Brewster podcast and a big shout out to the Voxx experiential team, Tara Riley, Courtney Given, Abby Aronofsky and Kate Lynn Burla.

Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things, tech and business. My life changed dramatically to the upside with one decision. I moved to New York. You are so lucky to be here. support for the show comes from Odu

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