Pivot - Skydance-Paramount Merger, Ghislaine Pardon Talk, and South Park Skewers Trump

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

Kara and Scott discuss the Skydance-Paramount merger getting the green light from the FCC, and South Park's timely takedown of Trump and Paramount. Then, with the tariff deadline looming, the EU strikes a trade deal with Trump. Plus, Ghislaine Maxwell talks to the DOJ, Gwyneth Paltrow becomes the "temporary" spokesperson for Astronomer in the wake of the Coldplay kiss cam scandal, and Tony Robbins sues over AI chatbots. Watch this episode on the ⁠⁠Pivot YouTube channel⁠⁠. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcastofficial⁠⁠. Follow us on Bluesky at ⁠⁠@pivotpod.bsky.social⁠⁠ Follow us on TikTok at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcast⁠⁠. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at ⁠⁠nymag.com/pivot⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Can I sell my ball sweat and call it detox for $75? No, you can't because nobody would buy it. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. So you're in New York? Yeah, I am.

And it's kind of shocking. Every time I walk in, I half expect to see you roaming around, like, wearing my clothes. No, but I'm happy to stay there this week when I come to tape with you. Oh, that's right. You're excited about that. You're big... I am. Your big, Live for Everything on CNN.

Yeah. You wanted something... I saw you on the Semaphore podcast talking fondly of me, so don't pretend. Oh, yeah, the dozens and dozens of people that listen to the Semaphore podcast. I like Ben. I like Semaphore, too. Yeah, yeah, they're good. That was a very sweet podcast, actually, very informative.

I can't believe I listen to the whole thing. Like, I have enough of you, but it actually was nice to listen to you. You're very smart, apparently. Allegedly. So how's New York? How do you like being back? Look, I love it here. I think New York is hands down the best city in the world.

I think it's going through a renaissance right now, shedding skin, new restaurants. I love the summer, flip-flops, tank tops, a certain desperation that we're the ones who don't have. That's a key, a Perry song, by the way, flip-flops and tank tops. But go ahead. Oh, God, that hurts. That hurts. That is really mean right out of the gate. Jesus, Kara, that is really mean.

But I like it. I love hanging out with other people that aren't very hot or don't have the opportunities to be somewhere else. It's like we're all in this together. If you're in New York in the summer in July, it's like, okay, things have not worked out the way we'd hope. Although I kind of like it. It has kind of a nice feel to it when nobody's there, don't you think?

I kind of always like that when I lived in New York. I am. You literally could bump into anyone who's in New York on a weekend and say, how did your life not work out? Like, why are you here? You're just special. You're special. Oh, yeah.

The city is looking good. I have to say. You're not hot enough to be invited out to some house in Montauk or you're not rich enough to get the fuck out of here. But we're all in this together. All in this together. We're all in this together. Oh, and I just came from, I'm sorry, back to me. I just came from, I had the best two days with my youngest in Chicago.

We got him to Chicago. Oh. That's a great city. It's a great city. It's a fantastic. We went, we got pizza. Is he applying to University of? This is a 14-year-old.

He's applying to high school. Okay, all right, okay. He's more, instead of taking the ACT, he's like dying his hair every other week. Yeah, he looked good, though, I have to say, in those photographs. Yeah, it looks like the real slim shady. He does. Oh, my God, what a great city. We were going to do deep dish, and then he read somewhere that deep dishes for amateurs,

so we went and had great thin, crispy, so we went to Gibson Steakhouse. We went to the Skydeck, tallest building in America. We went to this great best ice cream I've ever had this point. It's called Jennings. Jennings, yes, of course. Oh, you know what? I didn't know it. Yes, it's all over the country.

Oh, is it really? I thought it was a Chicago thing. No, no, but it's good. Jennies is, you know the Jenny's thing. It's Nancy Pelosi's favorite ice cream, and they were giving her a hard time because it's expensive. And I was like, that means she has good taste, my friend. It's really good.

Wow. I thought that's so funny, I assume everything is the Chicago thing. No. And then we did that tour, the bike tour, the river that you talk about. And then we went and played, this is the best. We went and played ping pong and pool in the middle of the day. I love ping pong. Yeah, it was a ton of fun.

We had such an, everyone's friendly. Yeah, Chicago's a great city, and it's really fun in the summer. Did you go down to the lake? Because everyone's at the lake. That's kind of cool down there. Yeah, they said go down to the lake and the beach. I'm like, I see a lot of beach. I'm surrounded by beach all the time.

It's just massive and beautiful. Oh, and then we went and saw F1. Oh, yeah. And? And? It's just good to know a guy older than me, they can be that hot. It's a great movie. Isn't it crazy?

He owns the movie. I think he made the movie. Yeah. Did he win the race, Scott? Did he win it? Did you have any question? I'm not going to let that cat out of the bag. I mean, that's a real twist there.

But by the way, so on this Netflix show, I'm basically there to make it feel more real, the thing about Big Tech. They clearly didn't have that person because a 62-year-old, they'd be taking his driver's license away, not putting him an F-1. Right. I hung out with some F-1 drivers that can't. They're like 22-year-old Brazilians that don't drink. that have, like, these cat-like reflexes that degrade by the time you're 27. The idea of a 62-year-old big an F-1 driver is so insane. Scott, he's on the edge.

He's on the edge. He's always pushing a limit. Yeah. He's making the risk. Oh, my God. He's so. I think that guy's amazing. He is so good.

I think the whole cast was great. I think, have you seen Superman? Now, you're working away through. I didn't see Superman. Oh, you got to see Superman. I went and saw Fantastic Four because I like Vanessa Kirby. Pedro Pascal My son liked it

I just can't handle the Marvel DC shit I think it's literally an attack on our I think it's an attack on everything good about the creative world I just

I said you like those things Have you seen the Fantastic Four? I do but I don't like Fantastic Four I've never seen a Fantastic Four I've liked that's what I have to say

Maybe I just don't like the Fantastic Four This one's pretty good He's a handsome man Pedro? Yeah Pedro Yeah

She's a beautiful woman So Yeah she's a great actress too Yeah And she's engaged to my good friend Paul Rabel. Oh, what? And she's expecting.

Paul? Yeah. Oh, my God, I'll write him a note. Oh, he's lovely. For people that don't know, he's a great lacrosse player, and he is just a wonderful guy. Yeah, just a footnote on that. They're going to have 30 kids. I'm going to weaponize them and take over Australia.

Can you imagine? He's literally the greatest lacrosse player to ever play the sport. She is spectacular. Can you imagine what their kids are going to be like? I know, and he's a good man. He's like, you know what was really interesting. he, I told you, he took a minute for my sons who loved him, like, and I did a video for them, and they were beside themselves when they were, whatever, 13, 14 years old, they were beside themselves.

I met him five or six years ago. He had a podcast, and he showed up to my office. The guy looks like an Adonis. I mean, he literally is the most, like, he's this insane specimen. And he walks in, I'm like, Jesus Christ, who's the, who's the, you know, the Dwayne Johnson with a lacrosse thing. And he sat down and he's like, and he looks to me in mind. He's like, he's like, I really struggle with my relationship with my father. And he's like, I'm trying to figure out how it's manifesting in my insecure.

I'm like, what the fuck? He's so groovy. He's so groovy. He's so literally kind of in touch with, you know, him. Good hair. Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, I don't know how I got here.

Well, good. Fantastic four. Fantastic for. Go see it. Well, good. I'm glad. How was your weekend? I was, good.

I had a great weekend, actually. We did a lot of, we did a, I did a, I did it. We're doing these dinner parties on Sunday, and we had our neighbors who were also very handsome people, and friends of ours, who, one friend of ours, they got married, this lesbian couple, and she graduated law school. So we celebrated her law school graduation,

and my neighbor got a great new job doing a really cool thing that's related to art Basel. And I have to tell you, speaking of New York being beautiful, I have to say, in San Francisco, it is so cleaned up, it's really quite amazing. I'm going to, hopefully, doing an event there. Last week, I agree. It looks great.

It looks really great. And it went to some great places to eat, went out with Dr. Swisher. We had a great time. And so it was good. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including the FCC green lighting, the sky dance Paramount Merger, no surprise. And what Trump is saying about a pardon for Jolene Maxwell, the sexual abuser. I'm going to say that with everything.

It's incredible that they're, well, we'll get to it. But first, the cold-play kiss camsag is not. Over, Astronomer, the tech firm at the center of all the drama, has a new temporary spokesperson. Let's hear from her. Thank you for your interest in Astronomer. Hi, I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. I've been hired on a very temporary basis to speak on behalf of the 300-plus employees at Astronomer. Astronomer has gotten a lot of questions over the last few days, and they wanted me to answer the most common ones.

Yes, that's Gwyneth Paltrow, Oscar winner, entrepreneur, and ex-wife of Cole. plays lead singer, Chris Martin. The tongue-in-cheek video, she pivots from a kiss cam questions to highlighting the company's AI tools in its upcoming conference. Forbes said the video offers a crisis playbook for CEOs. I was really curious, just for people know that why not take advantage of a terrible situation, for one. Call play is also benefiting streams of their songs are up 25%. I just, I was sitting there. I'm like, I wonder what Scott things. I liked it. My friend Brooke says, straight women don't like it, gay people and straight men like it. I don't know if that's true.

How do you, what do you think about it as a marketer? Well, first, unfairly, I don't think much. For some reason, I don't love Glenneth Paltrow. I wish she'd run into a snowplow in that accident. She calls herself her thought leader, but I think her only thought should be I should have finished college. But anyways. Okay. All right.

Move along. I think it's genius. Absolutely genius. I think the CMO, I think that is probably the best marketing move. so far of 2025, just to lean into it, you know, just to own it. She's been perfectly cast. She is, I think she is a great actress. And the connection with Chris Marr, genius. And we live in an age where it is so crowded out there. Everyone's trying to grab. If you think of the marketing funnel, we always talk about the marketing funnel, but it kind of distills down to

awareness, intent, purchase, and loyalty. And one of the hardest things that both Trump and Musk have weaponized, and I think the reason that they're president and the wealthiest man in the world is they really understand the power of awareness, even if it goes against traditional instinct of making you look bad. You'd rather be known for something not great than not known at all. The worst thing you can say about someone after you meet them, what's the worst thing you can say about them? I forgot them. I don't remember them. I don't know who they are. What? Who? And them leaning into this, I bet the company astronomer has gone from Z,

Zero, literally zero percent awareness. It wouldn't have even registered statistically if you did an awareness from few or something. I thought it was for like telestops. To probably 20 or 30 percent right now. I bet one in three Americans have heard of this company called astronomer. Is it translate or is it just a one-off, clever, good handling of a bad situation? If they had spent $200 million on awareness campaign, they couldn't have got this type of awareness. And I don't think people hold the company, doesn't make, I don't think people hold the company liable.

they think, oh, an old, you know, a rich white dude thinks you can start banging his head of HR and get away with it. Like that, okay, that's not a shocker. That's not like, it doesn't mean their AI platform isn't good, right? People aren't saying, oh, that's it. I'm not, I'm going to, you know, whatever, dystopia AI now. So all of a sudden, everyone's heard about it. I doubt their existing customers are leaving.

And when they hear from one of their 40 inside sales reps pinging people on LinkedIn to try and get a meeting. People are like, oh, wait, is it that astronomer? It's a conversation starter. People have heard of the company. Sense of humor. Shows a sense of humor. Sense of self-awareness. And brilliant casting. And she did a good job. She's excellent in it. I have to say. It's tailor made for her. So they handled it really well, I think. Good job, astronomer, although we're not going to buy any of your products. You know, she was at code. We had a problematic appearance at code with her. Really? Say more. Spill the tea. Come on. You know, she did a really great, essay on, she got very badly attacked online in the early days of Twitter and everything else,

like crazy bad. And it was incredibly sexist. And you can like her or not, but it was over the friggin' top with her. And so she wrote this essay saying, look, I'm getting attacked a lot. Can you imagine if you're a teen girl? And, you know, I can handle it. She was like, I can handle it, but what the fuck is happening here? And so it was very prescient, very early. She was making this point. So I invited her to code to talk about this essay and to do. one of those five-minute talks, you know, in front. And she came, and I just was like, just wear jeans, like how she appeared in this thing. And she was overdressed and she got nervous and wasn't able to really articulate it and was reading from a script. And I think she just

got nervous because she was very lovely. I mean, she handled it. But it just didn't, the essay was so good and her presentation there was not. And I was sorry because I think she had an excellent point, using her celebrity to make a point about teen girls very early on in what you talk about now, you know, about teenagers and self-esteem. She was one of the earlier people to do that in Facebook and Twitter and stuff like that. So it was unfortunate because she was great. And I was thinking, oh, she's really good with scripts is what I should have done is just talk to her about it and not let her give a speech. So it rambled. It didn't. And then all the men were acting like assholes because she's very pretty. I don't know. I think she's what happens when a Birkenbag

gains sentience and overdoses in ayahuasca. No, she's very pretty. It is such late-stage capitalism. It's like put the term detox in front of everything and charge 75 bucks on it. Let's not beat up on a woman anymore. Can I sell my ball sweat and call it detox for 75 bucks? No, you can't because nobody would buy it, but hers perhaps. Ball sweat candle. I do have the vaginas candle. I do have the dog aroma. Dog aroma. I bought it for my son. I think I bought vagina candle from my seat. Oh, God. Anyway, we're going to move on. Speaking of vagina candles, President Trump announced that the U.S. reached a trade deal with the EU on Sunday shortly before the August 1st deadline. He made a deal. The deal imposes a 15% tariff on most European goods to the

U.S., which is higher than the 10% baseline tariffs the EU was hoping for. President Trump called the agreement, quote, the biggest deal ever made and, quote, satisfactory to both sides, although the EU will not be imposing a tariff on American imports. Trump said that EU also agreed to purchase $750 billion worth of U.S. energy and additional $600 billion worth of investments in the U.S. and hundreds of billions in military equipment. The 50 percent tariff on steel from Europe remains in place, though. Meanwhile, Trump also filled his weekend with something else, golfing at his golf resorts in Scotland, is estimated the golfing triple-cost American taxpayers over $10 million to talk his golf club.

That brings a total golf cost of his second term to at least $52 million. He spent 152 million golfing in his first term. But those fed red invasions, right, Scott? So, anyway, talk about the EU deal. The golfing thing is just grotesque the way he does this. But it's part, we're sort of used to it, unfortunately. Well, just, I don't like to give Trump any wins, but just trying to call balls and strikes. Look, the guy plays too much golf.

In my opinion, he's not focused on the wrong. He's either thinking about a comp strategy around avoiding Epstein. or making big, bold declarative statements, not putting in the real work that a president, in my opinion, supposed to do as evidence by the fact that he's golfed, whatever, 50 times. Having said that, presidents need to take time off, and when they take time off, it's going to cost a lot of money because there's an infrastructure around protecting the president. So I don't fault him for that. The EU deal, so far, I need to dig in, but I actually think the EU deal is a pretty good deal.

I mean, I'm not sure we needed to start this nonsense to begin with. Right, right. But it so far looks like a pretty reasonable deal. What's interesting is that in some instances, it actually lowers tariffs. So it's like, okay, so Trump is actually a free trader now, which I like. I think that, you know, I would like to see zero tariff zones. And I think free trade is absolutely inextricably linked to our prosperity. Comparative advantage is just at the end of the day, the reason why we have all these talented people around us is there are some people who are better things than we are and we exchange what we're good at and we all end up better off. And so I kind of like this deal. The number one or number two exports from the U.S. into the EU or oil or energy, and I think we sell them a lot of jet planes. They sell a lot of pharmaceuticals into us. Here's the thing. It felt like a press release because now the Vietnamese and the Japan one don't seem to be as full as, you know, I mean, like he's so into the press release of everything. It seems like

a lot of wasted time when this could have been done quietly and behind the scenes. Agreed. You know? 100%. And I don't even know, like, a lot of the stuff he's signed is not clear if it's signed, right? And again, our own American companies are complaining about the alleged Japanese deal, although that's not clear where that is. And so I just feel like this is a lot of just press releases.

Maybe that's what all the presidency is, but I don't think it is. I think they're, you know, these things should take time. They should be well thought out. It shouldn't, you know, poor Ursula von Leiden, you saw her the head of the EU, how to sit there, like, I would love the internal, the internal stuff in her head would have been fantastic. Yeah, there's some good memes on that. Mm-hmm. So look, they, uh, uh, we import nuclear reactors, boilers, machinery, mechanical appliance, 15% of cars and other non-railway vehicles, 10% of imports. Uh, what's interesting is the tariff on EU cars dropped from 27.5%

set in May to 15% and the tariff on U.S. cars imported to the U.S. cars imported to the U. drop from 10% to 2.5%. But here's the problem, folks. People don't love our cars. We have a, we don't have a tariff problem. We have a product market fit problem. And then, but I, look, I hate to give it to them, but I actually think this deal is better than I would have thought it would be. I'm glad it's taken insecurity off the table. The EU is, people think China's our largest trading partner. Our largest trading partner by nation is Mexico. And our largest by region is actually the EU. So having this kind of settled such that we can get back to work, people can start planning their businesses and stop spending time trying to guess what is going to come

out of his office next. I think this is a good thing. Well, you know, Wall Street had called this, right? Wall Street had sort of been like, just spend no yips from Wall Street whatsoever this whole couple of weeks. My bias is always to look for what's wrong here. I actually think that there's a lot that's right here. Now, whether we needed to do this, this at all, whether it should be done by the Secretary of Commerce, a really talented Gio Rimundo type figure. I think that there's a lot of merit to that, that this is more about performance than it is about actual economic growth. But I like the, the way I see this is that it's essentially gone the other way, that it's reducing tariffs and increasing

free trade, which I like. So, you know, I give this, I hate to do it. I give this, I give this a thumbs up. I give it a medium thumbs up only because it didn't have to happen. This It's just like a lot, and it's like Grandpa knocked over all the chairs and then set them up slightly better. Okay, great. Thanks, Gramps. Like, could have been done in so many other ways. And the kind of... I know it is. And here, I just said it. I just said it. Grandpa knocks over a lot of fucking chairs and he needs to stop. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back. As Skydances, Paramount Deal clears another hurdle. South Park takes aim at Trump and its parent company. comes from Upwork. Navigating today's economy is a lot. Tariffs, tight budgets, hiring freezes, and we haven't even touched on interest rates yet. But if you're building a business in the current economic climate, there's one move that can actually help stretch your budget. Upwork. It's the hiring platform designed for the modern playbook. You can find, hire, and pay expert freelancers on Upwork, and they can deliver results from day one. Perfect for businesses on tight budgets,

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got a thong, which will be very comfortable as he's moving around to his various vacation spots. But I actually, I own lots of sports stuff actually from them. And I think it feels great. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to quince.com slash pivot for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash pivot to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash pivot. Scott, we're back. The FCC has approved Skydance's merger with Paramount with the commissioners voting two to one along party lines to give the $8 billion deal a green light. FCC chairman Brendan Carr said the agency signed off after Skydance committed to unbiased journalism and agreed not to establish any DEI programs.

That guy's such a waste of space in many ways. The merger was approved just days after Trump said he received his $16 million settlement from Paramount. He also claimed to be getting an additional $20 million from Skydance. in the form of ads and PSAs, though Skydance has not confirmed that. So talk a little bit about this, because I think you think it's like a nothing burger of our company. Trump is setting now, setting his sights on ABC and NBC now, calling them political pawns for Democratic Party and saying their licenses should be revoked. He also went after Oprah and Beyonce at some point.

And while it was happening, South Park, which is a Paramount property, just finished a big deal, kicked off its 27 season last week with a premiere that skewered Trump and Paramount beautifully. the episode showed Trump in bed with Satan, referencing another one of Trump's favorite topics. Let's play a bit. I'm not in the mood right now. Another random bitch commented on my Instagram that you're on the Epstein list. The Epstein list? Are we still talking about that?

Are you on the list or not? It's weird that whenever it comes up, you just tell everyone to relax. I'm not telling everyone to relax. Relax, sir? It was worse than that. They also had a naked Trump. They had a penis with an eye on it. And they talked about how they...

These guys do a lot of edibles. Oh, yeah, absolutely. The South Parks creators just signed a new $1.5 billion streaming deal with Paramount. They should have got $1.6. I know. These guys are genius. I just... Please, let's just...

We'll get to Epstein, the bigger Epstein issue in an instant. But talk about this. I thought this was hysterical. This is 27 seasons, and these guys are still... You know, a lot of people don't like them. because they're so politically incorrect, but I love, my kids love them. I think they're amazing. Your thoughts?

I think it's hardening not only because, well, I enjoy great comedy, but it's hardening that something that's built into our society, I think, is a certain level, and I think this is really encouraging a certain level of irreverence and commercial opportunity and irreverence. And just as the president has convinced, you know, Bob Iger to bend a knee and certain law firms to bend any and gotten, you know, said, okay, Sherry, if you want to maintain your status as a billionaire, I'm going to get you to bend any, fine. But the moment, one of the thing about America is that people are pretty fearless, creatives are pretty fearless, and they come out with something like this. And also, all of the 60-something late night talk show hosts that are,

you know, making a hundred times more than there, folks behind the camera who see any, threat against Colbert. I mean, they're just so fucking precious, and I realize how cynical that is, but people love these people. But you guess what? They're not going to be silenced. They're going to do podcasts. I'm not saying that we shouldn't take this kind of move towards fascism and this attempt to intimidate journalists, that we shouldn't take it seriously. But what I find is examples like this and there's examples everywhere are basically the American culture, the creative community, kind of say, fuck you. And find You know, it's like, remember Jurassic Park, it said that life finds a way. Well, guess what? The truth and the truth and humor and satire, it finds a way. And it made me feel good that as much as they're going to attempt to silence critics, it's not going to work or I don't think it's going to work. Because same station or same broadcast network that agreed to basically pay off the president, was intimidated, bent to knee. And then as soon as these guys signed a deal, they put out.

something like that. I just found it very encouraging. Where's you like, oh my God? Like, I was like, wow. These guys went for it. Went for it. They just went and they talked about it. And they talked about it. That they approved it. One of the things that I liked about it, you know, a lot of people, when I say I like South Parkerman's like, oh, they're anti-ness.

You know what? If you liked this one, you have to like being offended all the time by these guys. They are, they do do like really heinous stuff, but it's funny. Or just laugh about it. They're comedy. And again, actually, when Babylon B happened, when what was an anti-trans thing, it was just not funny is what it was. That's my issue with it. Whenever it's not funny, but I think we have to give huge leeway to comics and satirists and all that stuff. The stuff that does make me nervous, I'll tell you, is like acute, I know this is a distraction and you talk about Trump like this, but accusing Oprah and Beyonce of taking millions for their 2024 comma endorsements and saying they should be prosecuted. the continuing Obama videos, which are really disturbing and not funny. And I get the idea of he can do whatever he wants.

And Trump's legal team asked a judge to order Rupert Murdoch to sit for an expedited deposition in that lawsuit, of that $10 billion lawsuit citing his age as the reason to do this sooner rather than later, although I think Rupert will outlast Trump by the long stretch. But that stuff really is disturbing. The idea that he's getting free ads or that he's – I love these guys, but not everyone can be these guys, and a lot, some of it is serious and some of it is just funny, like that they stick it in his eye kind of thing, or the eye of his penis, I guess. I think satire plays an important role.

I think the left has shot itself in the foot by becoming so sensitive that we have ceded irreverent comedy to the right, and people love irreverent comedy, and we used to own it. If you think about the real comedians and social commentators, they were, yeah, they came from the Lenny Bruce, these were offensive people. And they said really off-color things. And then we decided, oh, you can't say that. And then they kind of the right sort of usurped the, you know, comedy, comedy is legal again. So I like when comedians, that's why I love Ricky Trevades. I do think that's changing, though. I do think, I think there's more of a sense of humor coming through. When you see, when I'm starting to interview Congress people, they're more like,

whatever, like they seem to feel a little looser in that regard. And these guys, I wouldn't know what these guys, these guys aren't left or right. I don't know. They're just funny. They're just funny. And so I think that's critically important. But the other ones where he's attacking like law firms or, you know, putting those Obama things up, those are just incredibly deleterious to our society. I think, and they're weird and they're threatening and they're creepy. And speaking of creepy, President Trump says he's allowed to pardon Jane Maxwell. We know this, President Trump, but nobody's approached him about it. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche met with Maxwell for nine hours across two days last week at a Florida prison

where she's serving her 20-year sentence. It should be 100 years. Maxwell was asked about a hundred different people, according to her lawyer, and she reportedly granted limited immunity for the interviews, essentially immunity that applies only if she doesn't lie. Let's listen to what else Maxwell's lawyer said about the meeting. This was the first opportunity she's ever been given to answer questions about what happened. And so the truth will come about what happened with Mr. Epstein, and she's the person who's answering those. Dear lawyer, it's not the first opportunity she's ever been given to answer questions. She just refused to do so, and she almost went up for perjury because she's a liar.

She's a sexual harasser. She's convicted sex, you know, just stop it. This is a person who deserves no, I know we do immunity deals with these people to get stuff, but this cynical, horrible monster, as I said last week, is this. The fact that they're focused on her and not the victims continues to astonish me. And the idea that Republicans are suddenly like, oh, she's our hero or a version of our hero, oh, if she tells the truth, then it's good. She could have told the truth a million times and saved all these women untold trauma,

but she isn't because she's a monster and deserves to stay in jail the rest of her life. I mean, the 20 years to me is not at all long enough. I don't know what you think, but I'm just like, are you kidding me with this lady? So before we get back to that, you know, my favorite Cartman line is? Okay, go ahead. Okay. I just had a raging. I say this all the time. And then I have to say it's Carpman because people look at me like, what the fuck? I'll say, I'm not just sure. I'm HIV positive. And people are like, what? It also says, you know, you can actually die from secondhand smug.

Anyways. Love Cartman. Look, when something becomes a really big problem, it can shut down. down the government. The deficit has gotten so big that Republicans who claim to be fiscally conservative or get mad at social spending, and in my opinion, the Democrats should have done it the last time around, they will threaten to shut down the government. And the world in the markets freak out temporarily at the idea that the deficit or our fiscal responsibility might result in second order effect of the government being shut down. Okay,

a pedophile, a convicted pedophile, just shut down the government. Epstein and specifically the Attorney General and Trump's efforts to shut down the release or inhibit the release of these files resulted in Speaker Johnson excusing Congress early. Epstein shut a dead pedophile, shut down the U.S. government. So this is having all sorts of second order effects here. And your point is exactly, it's ridiculous to think that someone accused, tried, convicted, incarcerated, of one of the highest profile crimes of the last decade, that there weren't people all over her asking her questions, offering deals. But now they said, no, we don't like what she said. So we're taking a moment to give her a chance to be part of our political

fodder for the protection of the president. So this is hugely political. It's unprecedented. It's unethical and it raises whatever comes out of this will just be poisoned fruit not valid it just won't even if they did it by the book and they found no information or whatever it's just not the whole thing is tainted we talked about this at the last show the fix is in but i'm just very curious what happens i think it's going to be a very long and hot summer at these town hall meetings for republicans who show up and say okay and you know who's been really on point here is Representative Rokana. He's been very pointed. I just was texting at the Moscow. And very, very accurate and really, really puncturing around this stuff. With Tom Massey,

she's trying to get like some, here's the thing. Donald Trump is in the Epstein files and should not be conducting, she should remove himself from every point of view, because everything he does is going to taint this entire thing. Plus, he's using it as a political cudgel. They'll only name Democrats, not maybe a few Republicans he doesn't like. This is just so grotesque, and what's more grotesque is watching that little nebish, Mike Johnson, shift. He doesn't care about pedophiles. He doesn't care about the women. He what he cares, persecuting pedophiles, he cares about protecting President Trump over anything else. And that's like creepy. It puts you adjacent to pedophiles is what it does.

A pedophile enabler is what it reminds me of. And I couldn't say it any stronger. This woman is a criminal, and she belongs in jail, and whatever she says is very tainted at this point, because she had every opportunity to make people's lives better by coming through, even if it meant her being put in jail longer, she did things that deserve that. And therefore, I think help getting her doesn't settle anything. And by the way, the victims who've talked up and the ones that are being interviewed, I did an interview with Julie K. Brown this week. they are beside themselves. They're re-traumatized, and it has nothing to do with stopping pedophiles or helping women. It has everything to do with helping someone on the Epstein list, and that would be President Trump. All right, we'll see what happens, but it's going to be, you're right, it's going to be an ugly summer for a lot of people.

And some of people, it deserves to be an ugly summer. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, another AI lawsuit. Searchlight Pictures presents, the rose. Only in Theatres August 29th. From the director of Meet the Parents and the writer of Poor Things, Comes The Roses, starring Academy Award winner Olivia Coleman, Academy Award nominee Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Sandberg, Kate McKinnon, and Allison Janney.

A hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses, only in theaters August 29th. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Square. You're not just running a restaurant, you're building something big, and Square's there for all of it, giving your customers more ways to order, whether that's in-person with Square kiosk or online.

Instant access to your sales, plus the funding you need to go even bigger. And real-time insights so you know what's working, what's not, and what's next. Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to. Visit square.ca to get started. In 1961, President Kennedy's FCC chairman, Newton Minow gave a speech deriding commercial TV programming. I can assure you that what you will observe is a vast wasteland.

He wanted to do something about it. Is there one person in this room who claims that broadcasting can't do better? So Congress created something called the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. He might not have realized when you were interacting. with the CPB, but it happened all the time. When you were tickled by Elmo... Happy International Joke Day. When someone moved you on the drive home...

This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross. CPB is the reason you're hearing my voice right now. But due to big, beautiful cuts, the organization announced on Friday that it would be shutting down next year. What's taken its place? If you ask this White House, they might say something like Prager You.

What is Prager You on Today Explained? Scott, we're back with more news. Motivational speaker, Tony Robbins, has sued the makers of an AI tool YesChat, accusing them of using his name and reputation for a series of chat bots. Robbins says the bots ingested his seminars and copyrighted material and are reselling it under his name, which he is trademarked. Yes, chat has several paid subscription tiers and offers bots such as talk to Tony Robbins and Tony Robbins' GPT.

Robbins has his own authorized AI clone available by subscription on his website, as he should. Sued is seeking $10 million in damages for unfair competition, $2 million for each trademark violation of which there could be a number, and punitive damages for willful and malicious misconduct. These are going to be more and more. It's interesting this, Tony Robbins, but it makes sense. He has so much material out there. It's so easily AIed. He sometimes sounds like AI, honestly. Talk a little bit about this. Like, they could ingest a lot of your stuff, my stuff, I don't know, but you do a lot of, like, prescriptive stuff like that. How do you look at these kind of things? a lot about this. I believe what Jensen Huang said, that everyone should have rights to their digital

twin. And first up, only in America could you have a guy who's six, seven, and like a pure alpha energy screaming at traumatized accountants. I mean, it's just, I think Tony Robbins is a phenomenon. There needs to be pretty serious, in my opinion, legislation. I think, and one of the problems about having a really old electorate is I just don't think they understand these technologies. I think you really need immediately some IP protection that has. as Jensen Huang said, said, you own your digital twin. And so I'm working with a large company that has a very big search engine, and they're creating this thing called portraits.

Portraits or profiles, where you give them permission to scan everything. I get a lot of questions, a lot of emails, as I'm sure you do. And a lot of them are really thoughtful emails from people asking about their sons or looking for advice. And you don't want to answer everyone. I just can't. I want to and I can't. And so I'm working with this company and I'm giving them permission to scan absolutely everything I've done such that they get an automatic response.

And if they want, they can ask this AI to give them an answer in my voice. And that's coming. Do you vet it? How do you, what if it says like bad things? Well, first off, I mean, I think people have to recognize, all right, it is AI. And there will be problems. But they do, I'm hoping we do a pretty good job of QA and we spend a lot of time asking a question. and we've been tweaking this, you know, I would never say this, what happened, or, you know, it's okay to say I don't know, what have you, but the bottom line is I've given them permission and I want to, so that's fine, but people that they don't give permission, I don't think should have anything crawled or anything mimicked about them. In addition, I think it's really, I think there's a big opportunity for the creative community to kind of extract, and I don't want to say they're pound of flesh, but,

but the royalty they're entitled to, there's just no reason. If you, one of my favorite songs, someone that I used to know, the singer wanted to use a lot of samples, so he preemptively paid out royalties to avoid copyright disputes. That's the way it should be.

And this has been a big deal in the specialty retail community where companies ranging pottery barn to whoever restoration hardware go and essentially go to artisans and quote unquote, say they're, work was inspired by them. What is the line between copying something when you owe people money?

Because the best economic, look, the two best economic business models in history are, one, tapping into people the flaw in their instincts, right? I couldn't find sugary food so we can mass produce a sugar bomb in the form of cereal, give it to people they don't know when to stop. Oh, only 40% of men have reproduced lack of mating opportunities create porn. Oh, okay, great. People are dying for social connection, are so freaked out about being ashamed, create algorithms that make them feel bad about themselves, so they have to come back every two minutes to see what someone commented on. Okay, Instagram.

And then the other second best business model, hands down. First is tapping into an instinctual flaw. The second best business model is IP theft. The Americans in the 18th and 19th century stole British and European textile manufacturing technology and built the manufacturing plants up and down the eastern seaboard based on European IP, even stole some. artisans, kidnap some artisans, and the most ascended economy over the last 30 years, their core competence is really elegant IP theft, whether it's letting Tesla come in and manufacture and then propping up BID, whether it's letting a Google long enough to figure out their algorithm and then propping up bydo. So IP theft is the ultimate business model. And what do you have with

meta and AI? You have one, companies that are able to tap into the flaws in our instincts, And two, massive and trumped a signal, we're going to let them engage in massive IP theft. Right. He said it wasn't a big deal. Now, your book is coming out. You remember they did my book and they made those porny, weird versions of me and books of my, they're still there. They haven't been able to take a lot of them down.

Your book is coming out. They're going to try to rip it off. They'll probably be a workbook for your book, you know, a man workbook or something that isn't yours. Do you have any, I mean, you'll spend your time playing whack-a-mole with these people. That's my feeling, is that they don't, there's no protect, you have copyright protection, but in order to enforce it is another story. I'm not just worried about that stuff.

There's purposeful leakage, right? You want a certain amount of, you know, Netflix wants you to share a certain number of the passwords, right? And you want a certain amount of mimicry or IP theft or what have you. But what I'm more worried about is that at some point, AI can say, take my book, notes on being man and give it to me in 60 pages, not 400, and they give it to you in 60 pages and you don't get compensated, neither me nor my agent nor my... You should put that one out, though. You should put out a 60-page version. Well, I mean, it's an interesting idea, but I think there's something to forcing people to do the

work. I always thought, I always was like, I wish I could do a 20-page, 60-page, 100-page version of my books. I used to say that, and publishers used to, like, vomit on the floor whenever I'd say that many years ago. Anyway, we'll see what goes with this. Good for you, Tony Robbins, but everyone's going to face this issue. Everyone who has enough material out there, people like me and Scott, Tony Robbins. There's a lot of people with lots and lots of material. Anyway, lastly, President Trump doesn't want the federal government agencies to contract with Elon Musk's XAI.

What a surprise, according to White House Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt. However, Trump took to social media saying he's not trying to destroy Musk's companies, saying everyone is stating that I will destroy Elon's companies by taking away some, if not all of the large-scale subsidies he receives from the U.S. government. This is not so. I want Elon, all of our businesses within our country, to thrive. In fact, thrive like never be sure for. Elon was not comforted.

He responded, like, these aren't subsidies. I'm providing them with good products for cheap prices. You know, he's going to continue to do this, and Elon's going to continue to whack at him, I assume, throughout the rest of the term. Any thoughts? I'm curious what you think here, Kara. I mean, if you look back,

Did must start this whole Epstein thing? He's the first one that said Trump's in the Epstein files. Remember when I said he's going to keep at it because he's obsessed with this topic? When he took it down, first he said it. I think yes, no, Elon started this, absolutely started it. And then insinuated Bannon, if you remember. And he took down the Trump one. And I remember at the time I said, no, no, he's going to put it back up because this sticks in his craw, this Epstein stuff.

Yeah, he did. He did start it. So, and what's interesting is that it feels like SpaceX right now is bigger than our government. And that is, I think he would love, I think Trump, and I wouldn't put in pass with him, he's willing to go after companies asymmetrically would cancel contracts. And I think the Defense Department has come back and said, SpaceX is our program. I mean, the media is so obsessed with itself. It can't stop covering Paramount.

You know, whatever it is, Yellowstone, it's relatively Colbert. I'm sorry, folks, it's relatively unimportant. The fact that we have one company that controls almost all of the low orbit satellites, that is much more important. That is where the FTC should be focused. So this stuff is, I find we're kind of, we're focused on the wrong things. And the fact that the Musk, I mean, think about this, Musk got the president, you could argue,

played a big role in his election. Musk is now playing a big role in what may be the dethroning of the president. Musk is now critical to our infrastructure and in some ways bigger than the Defense Department or the Defense Department has, if the Defense Department wants to bring home astronauts from the International Space Station,

they have to call Elon, right? If they want communications, battlefield technology to work really well, they have to call Elon. I mean, this is, we are, there are certain individuals who are becoming, Thomas Friedman said this probably 25 years ago, and it was insightful or appreciate it at the time, and he said that you have the rise of the super, super a nation state individual. And he was using an example of Bill Gates as now more powerful than most nations.

And I wonder if, in many ways, this is kind of showing that Elon Musk, at first I thought Trump's much more powerful than Elon. But basically, I think Elon, if he keeps at it, I don't know if it's going to take the president down, but he's going to severely diminish his power or distract him. It's not a good enemy to have. I remember when I said it's not like, you know, fighting with Omarosa or Michael Cohen. This guy has a set.

He's not Michael Avanotti. Yeah, you know, he has a set and he has money. He's got means. He also, when he apologized and everyone's like, it's over, I'm like, mm-mm, not this guy, not this guy. And what will be interesting to see is if he can strike a side deal because a lot of his acolytes have stayed in Washington and are trying to make deals with the Trump administration.

I suspect he will reach out to someone. I mean, he was, I think, close to J.D. Vance. And even though J.D. Vance is such a, like, a suckup to Trump, he's got a, I've got to, I'm really interested in what's actually going behind the scenes with Vance and the rest of them because they're all preparing for a post-Trump world, right, at this point. And so they've got to figure out they cannot make an enemy of Elon, for example, going forward. Even if it angers Trump, they've got to do it in this sort of subtle, quiet way.

So the jockeying behind the scenes has got to be fascinating. Like, this is just my guess. I'm not, I'm completely making it up. But if I were Vance or any Republican, I would start to figure out what the world post-Trump looks like. Because he's obviously decaying in real time. Some of these pictures of him, he looks like really unhealthy. But that's okay. He can go on forever like that. I think he's been unhealthy his whole life. But I'm really interested in what I'd love to know what Vance is actually thinking versus what he says in public, which is obsequious to Trump. Because he's got more ties with these guys than Trump certainly did.

And he was sort of the person who introduced them to Trump. You know what I mean? Like that was their link. So it'd be interesting to be with Teal and Vance and Musk and those people figure out what they're up to. I think they're all trying to cosplay the president. wasn't, and that is that America's got so sick of this politically correct, starched, whitewashed, you know, vanilla speak, that then this guy came along and started like mocking

the disabled or calling people horse face. And as offensive as it was, a lot of America found it refreshing. And they thought, oh my God, for the first time, someone's speaking honestly. Like, that's them. They're actually speaking who they are. And but that cruelty and that coarseness, I think all of these guys, Ted Cruz or J.D. Vance, they never used to say the kind of shit they're saying now because they're all cosplaying him. And what I think they fail to realize is that the cadence of presidential cycles is we always go for someone different. We go way different. We're like, okay, we tried that for four, eight years. Now we are ready for something. I mean, Trump just couldn't have been more different than Obama. And, you know, Obama couldn't have been much more different than Bush. And I think the

future in, we've been talking about this with various Democrats, I think a guy like James Tallarico or, was it Talarico? The guy out of Texas. Texas. And then Mayor Pete, who talks about family. Yeah. And has a cool beard. Do you like his rocking beard?

Yeah, but I think Mayor Pete's, I had Ezra Klein on today, and he made a great point. I think Mayor Pete, to a certain extent, kind of is this great ad for why America works, right? Here's a guy who couldn't have been public about his family and instead talks about how wonderful and meaningful it is to have a healthy relationship in kids. And it's sort of like, you hear Mary Pete talk about it and you're like, wow, progressive America works. It means something for people. And he can talk about it when James Telerico talks about his faith and loving thy neighbor. I mean, he's going, I think the next president is literally going to be the 180 of Trump. I think he's going to be kind, kind, or she, kind, thoughtful.

Oh, Scott, you're sick. Yeah, I know. It's so weird, right? I'm going to bring you some balm. There you go. Yeah. I just want to big. I'm going to rub it lovingly on your chest.

I just want a big, like, a big Filipino nurse with well-moistized hands that calls me king. I want a nurse that calls me king. And I want a bell. I'll call you king. All right. Anyways, I'm thinking about having more plastic surgery. I'm going to need a nurse. We'll discuss.

Anyways, but I, these guys, I think the next one's going to be, if you will. I think the strategy for Democrats is to not even mention the president. I think people are so sick of hearing. The rest of the media world would do a job of bringing it out. After the midterms, yeah, he's dead. I mean, for to them. And he should be, as it's, this is something Rahman Manuel said. He's like, until the midterms, midterms, you say what you're going to do.

And even if it's not for real, and after the midterms, he doesn't exist. I think that's right. But I think America is so desperate at this point for kindness, for decency, for family, traditional value, you know, traditional, but like values. I'm going to run. Yeah, I can see that. No, but you, let's use you as an example. You're an example of like, of why progressive politics work. The fact that you can be married, have a great career, have children, have a healthy family. You're sort of the American success story. These Progressive ideals work. And you can speak to with credibility, the importance of family and what it means to have a traditional, you know, family means people you otherwise wouldn't hang out with and care with. And when you can get it, when you pull down barriers to people loving each other, they're less likely to be a tax on social society. They're more likely to pay their taxes. They're more likely to develop good humans who turn into good citizens, who can be great military, nonprofit, and business leaders. You know, this shit works. Yeah, I agree. I mean, one of the things I think, I think it'll be hard to elect a gay person, even a man and who's as pleasant as Pete Buttigieg. But one of the things that a lot of people say about him and some of the other Democrats

I've been interviewing lately is like, you know, even if you disagree with them or you have different problems, it's like sort of, I like the cut of your jib. Like, you know what I mean? I like how you're living your life kind of thing. And I think that's the appeal for a lot of progressives. And there's a lot of them now. There's a lot of them now, increasingly, who are very appealing. And I think you're right.

Being appealing and feeling genuine is going to be important. You've got to, like, wash out the Schumers and the rest of them. They've got to go. And not being afraid, also, not being afraid to be offensive. Yep, exactly. Say, yeah, I don't, I don't think trans athletes should be able to play sports. Or I think that this guy, I think this guy is a pedophile and that he's clearly covering up. Things that might be wrong, it's okay.

You might be wrong. You might offend 20% of the audience in front of you. That's okay. I think people are ready for it. That's all right. I agree. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

This week on Criminal. In 2008, detectives from the Minnesota Police Department were called to investigate a drive-by shooting. Everything they did was recorded by a camera. group for a TV show. Those camera people are allowed to ride around in police vehicles. They're allowed to be on the scene of crime scenes that are very active, that things have just happened. People have just died.

Years later, the Attorney General's office would say the TV show had completely misrepresented the case. Listen to our latest episode on Criminal, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Scott, we're going to do some wins and fails. I guess I'll go first. Okay. Fail, RFK Jr. Again, he's quietly, like, wrecking everything.

He's planning to move all 16 members of a cancer screening and HIV medication tax force because he believes they're too woke. He is a – I say this again and again, he's killing people. He's going to kill people. I get the need for change in the health care area. I'm doing a whole docu-series on it. I understand this. But the way he's going about it is so political and so nothing to do with science. He's just, and because Trump is so loud with all this Epstein stuff, you're not paying attention

to this guy. And I just think we need to really focus in on the stuff he's doing to rec science. I have talked to so many scientists. I've gone to so many great places, and they're all, like, doing amazing work and are in fear of getting cut. It's ridiculous. I was in one lab this week in Stanford, and it's this incredible breakthrough. And I'm not going to go into it, but it's this incredible breakthrough.

And this lab was run by, it was so full of really amazing people here from other countries. It was also Americans, Native-born Americans. It was so important that this group of people were here, and it's somewhere like Stanford getting funded, to do something amazing. And so what RFK Jr. is doing is killing people and setting back important research for even five years is too much. at all. And for a win, I do feel that, like, there is a pushback, and I loved what the South Park guys did. I just, and not just because I liked it, it was funny.

It was actually funny. It had a lot of resonance. I think they appropriately push back, and you have to like them, even if you don't agree with them on stuff. And I thought that was just one of the biggest baller moves of all time to do that. I just thought it was like, good for you. And it had to have been approved by, I'm assuming, Skydance knew of it or at least had some knowledge of it. And the executives who let it through, who want to stay there, I think, at Paramount, whether they get let go because of that, I don't think they will.

I think they hit it, they hit the target perfectly and Trump richly deserved. And so did Paramount all the attacks they did. So kudos to them. It's kind of a basic one, but kudos to them. I like it. I don't have a fail. I'd have two wins. My first win is the, I just didn't, I was not on my radar screen. My win is the great city of Chicago. About 3 million people, third largest in the U.S. I hadn't been there in a while. GDP over almost 800 billion of headquarters of United Airlines, McDonald's, Walgreens, great universities, University of Chicago, Northwestern University, UIC-Dipaw, loyal, all nationally ranked, doing a really, I spoke at this quantum event, I don't know why they're

going all in on quantum, but they are. Obviously, tremendous center for architecture and culture, music and the arts, parks, nature, great food scene, obviously love the sports. I just really, in terms of recognition, it was ranked the number one big city in the U.S. by Condonast Traveler, and frequently ranked among the top 20 global city. I just hadn't thought about going to Chicago, and my son said he wanted to go to Chongchoy or Chicago, so I said, okay, we're going to Chicago. But I really enjoyed it, and I don't think it gets, I don't think it gets the attention it deserves.

And also, the governance there is pretty, is clearly pretty good because it feels like the quality of life. I have a close friend, my closest friend since the fourth grade, my friend Adam Markman, and he could live anywhere and chooses to live in Chicago when he says it's basically New York, for a lot less money. My quality of life is really nice here. Cold. That's the only thing.

I like the people. I like the food. So anyways, I was just very, I kind of came away from Chicago. Why do you like Chytown? I love Chicago so much. Anyways, and then my other win is, I just think whoever the CMO or the marketing or the ad agency for astronomer is, that was the marketing move literally of the year.

And it's also launched, Gwyneth Paltrow's run for Congress, where she's going to have a lot of taxes and pantsuits. So I think this is... Come on, it's such late-stage capitalism. It's literally like... You know what?

Like, you have all kinds of friends and sell supplements and all kinds of nonsense and you don't like it to have them in similar ones. Yeah, anyways, it's... She's like a bond villain who runs a yoga studio.

Oh, my. Please. All right. Okay, sorry, Gwyneth. She's sorry. I don't know to say. Nice job, Gwyneth. Yeah. No, the Gwantz-Pollingerer version of self,

Gares firing your nanny because she made eye contact during a Mercury retrograde. Stop right now. Right now. Anyways, but I got to give it to astronomer. Whoever you are, I don't know if it was the agency, I don't know if it was the CMO, that was, you want to talk about turning chicken shit into chicken salad? That was genius. Chicago and astronomer are my wins.

I don't want to fail. Good. God, I was so off today. I'm sorry, Kara. Sorry, listeners, I was so off. No, you're not. You're fantastic. What are you talking about?

Don't come and rub some bomb on your chest. All right, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Submit a question for the show or call 85551 Pivot. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott Universe, this week on with Kara Swisher, I spoke with Julie K. Brown, an investigative reporter with the Miami Herald, whose 2018 series on Epstein led to a second arrest, a really kick-ass reporter. Let's listen to what she said about how Epstein's victims are really.

responding to the increased detention surrounding the case, something I've talked about, and why they won't be coming forward. It's sad, but they've been through so much that they're now at this point thinking, well, if the president of the United States is, this is their thinking, is covering up for Epstein, I'm not going out there on a limb and trying to say what happened to me because that's big. In fact, that's exactly what one of the victims told me. This is big. the president of the United States is essentially putting the lid on this case.

Shameful, shameful. Anyway, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott Gwyneth is going to be sending you a candle to make you feel better, okay? Read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Eamon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie intertied engineer this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Severe on Dan Ceylon. Nishak Kura is Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things, tech and business. Are you having problems to what Gwyneth would do?

Just look into a mirror and ask yourself, are you microdosing your shame? Thank you.