Pivot - Speaker Johnson, Meta Lawsuit, and Elon's Twitter-versary

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

Kara and Scott discuss where Twitter/X stands one year after Elon's acquisition. They also break down Biden's upcoming A.I. executive order, and the UAW—Ford agreement. Then, Mike Johnson is the new Speaker of the House, and Kara’s suspicious. States sue Meta, claiming its products harm kids. And today’s listener question ponders leadership and assholery. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. This is a test of the hotel's life safety sound system. The alarm you will hear is part of this test. Scott, what is that?

Thank you for understanding as we upgrade our systems to enhance your safety. Enjoy your stay. What was that? I can't interact with other people right now. This is a test. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott, what is going on there in Vegas? Have you done something bad? Are you in an episode of The Hangover? No, I just didn't like the current speaker, so I pulled the fire alarm. Word is he's a Christian nationalist, so I figured if I pulled the fire alarm at the wind, I could delay the vote. Is that wrong? That's wrong.

Is that wrong? It's just stupid, not wrong. Well, I went to the Sphere, which, by the way, is incredible. Incredible. I saw you, too. I haven't seen that many white people since I saw Taylor Swift. It seemed like the Lexus to remember September event. It was just couldn't have been any whiter. I mean, it was just and it was wonderful.

Bono looked great. And Lady Gaga came out in the sphere. Yeah, it really is incredible. Yeah. Yeah. I think the sphere is what I'd be looking at. I literally could not go see you two. I can't. I just can't. Why not? I've never liked them. I've never liked them.

Oh, my God. They're amazing. They're like the Dave Matthews band to me. I'm like, oh, no, thank you. But did you like it? No, it was really. Were they good? Oh, well, I love you two.

And Vegas is always awesome. And I'm here with three friends. My friend Greg, who I have known for 30 years. My friend Lee, who I've known for 40 years. And my friend Adam, who I've known for 49 years. Every year for my birthday, we come to Vegas for the last 35 years. That's lovely. That's a lovely thought of all of you there.

There's no good way to make this transition in any way, although it's nice that you're with your friends. But I want to mention the horrifying news out of Lewiston, Maine, where at least 18 people were killed, 13 injured in mass shootings at a restaurant and a bowling alley on Wednesday night. As of this recording, the suspect is still at large, if you can believe that. There's an intensive manhunt underway and a shelter-in-place order for several towns in the area. This is another gun tragedy, another mental illness tragedy, it looks like, from what they're talking about, the person of interest. I just, this is, I don't, there's no words. I don't have any. Yeah, difficult to say anything that hasn't been said. I think it's important, and I appreciate

you bringing it up, because you said something that always struck me, that humans are adaptable. And unfortunately, we've adapted to this. It's become normalized in our society. Yeah, it's a big gun culture in Maine. I have a lot of friends from Maine. And, you know, I just, that's not the reason for it. It's fine if you are safe and they have all kinds of gun checks, but they don't. And so this person had been, that's the suspect, let me just underscore, he's a person of interest or the suspect, had been in a mental health clinic, apparently. And so I don't know why he still had a gun after that. I don't know.

We'll find out more because it's an unfolding story. But again, our hearts go out to the people in Maine. But that'll be, the NRA will spin into action and talk about his mental health issues. And what bears repeating is that we do not have a monopoly on mental health issues. No, other countries certainly do. We do not, other than teen depression, which is, there is some evidence that we might be doing worse in other countries. But in terms of mental illness, we don't disproportionately over-index or under-index. What we disproportionately over-index is that we give everyone, including people struggling with mental health, access to

weapons of war. That's the delta here. That's true. In Maine, people don't realize this, they tried to pass gun control laws, and then it ended up being even looser restrictions under the previous governor. Anyway, it's a tragedy. It's another, it's an American tragedy is what it is. Speaking of another issue in the news, Republicans finally chose a speaker. But who exactly is Mike Johnson? I'm not liking what I'm reading about him. Plus, the landmark suit filed against Smeta and Elon's first year at X. But first, the UAW and Ford have reached tentative agreement on a new contract that could bring an end to the nearly six-week strike for at least that company.

The UAW says the deal includes a roughly 25% pay increase over four years, cost of living wage adjustments, and major gains on pensions and job security. The deal also needs to be approved by the UAW local leaders, then ratified by a majority of Ford's 57,000 union members. It continues to negotiate with GM and Stellantis, which were the other two big auto companies. But Ford is the first one to – I assume they'll settle relatively quickly. Again, this is something you thought would happen. Look, I like this.

thought would happen. Look, I like this. In about 1975, wages and productivity disarticulated from one another. When productivity went up and there was greater shareholder value, wages went up and everybody shared. And then the wage line went flat and capital kept, productivity kept going up and to the right. And this is an instance of what, you know, where I think unions played a productive role. I think what happened here should have happened, and that is the auto industry is healthy. It's not like writers or actors where there's 10 people who want to move to LA and do it despite the fact there aren't enough jobs. So these workers actually have some leverage. The industry is doing well. The increases in wages will cost them, or the increase in labor costs will cost them about an additional $1.3 billion, I think, or $1.5 billion, which is about 13% of their operating

profits. So I think this is a good thing. I think that these workers were due. They hadn't had a raise in a while. 25% is real money. They have other stuff, including pensions and bigger starting salaries. And people get- 6% a year. People get to senior status faster. We need to push money from shareholders and capital back into labor. And the UAW handled this well. They were targeted.

They were strategic. They understood where they had leverage, where they didn't. The initial deal was for 20%. Their bogey was 40. They ended up at 25. And to your point, GM and Stellantis will probably settle soon after. So I think it's a good thing. Yeah, probably. And it'll be a four-year deal, which is good. In other news, President Biden

is set to unveil an executive order on artificial intelligence next week. This will be the government's most significant attempt to regulate the technology. The order is expected to establish guidelines for federal agencies, which the Biden administration is directing their agencies to use how to use AI and also steer companies towards best practices. You and I are going to the announcement, aren't we? We are. We're going to be in the White House. They're letting us in the White House. How is that? We're influencers. They're bringing in influencers, they said, and that is us, apparently. But maybe you can answer the question that my kids asked when I showed them I got the invite and I was very excited and it was a nice moment. My kids were really impressed. Why are they inviting us? Because we're influencers, Scott, because we influence them.

Are you being serious? They think that we're going to be fond of this? Yes. Yeah. They want us there, you know, maybe a little, you know, hello, Mr. President Biden, that kind of thing. And, you know, I think us being there, we'll see if we like it. We don't, let me tell you, White House, if we don't like it, we'll say so. I mean, it's great that the president will tell the agencies how to behave. And I think that's appropriate. But ultimately, this is something Congress has to do that, you know, pass laws around AI. It's not going to be by executive order. But it's good. He's been doing this a lot on AI because the Congress refuses to act, but it's still not enough, certainly. And best practices,

that's a good thing. You know, been having a lot of these meetings. And we're there to just be the pretty ones. Now, I have a feeling they are going to have six or seven Secret Service people on you alone. And we'll see what happens when you go there, if you ever come out again. Well, I heard you're having an affair with a female spy. They refer to it as lesbianage. That's good. That's good. Oh my God, that's not good.

That's so bad. Why is that good? That is not good in any way. I think the idea of you and I at the White House is fantastic. I think it's fantastic. We're going on these adventures. We just were in California. We had a really good time at this beautiful resort in Napa and now we're doing this. This is fantastic. I think it's fantastic. We're going on these adventures. We just were in California. We had a really good time

at this beautiful resort in Napa. And now we're doing this. This is nice, our little adventures. But if you get near the Situation Room, I'm going to order them to tackle you. That's the situation. Well, hold on, hold on.

Let's just go a little bit behind the music here. I get invited, and so you find a way to muscle your way. I didn't find a way. I was also, it said Kara and Scott,

by the way, my name first. Didn't it say Scott Galloway? No, I got it. No, it's Scott. I will send you the invitation to both of us. And they forgot to forward it to me. It came into our pivot email. And they were wondering why I hadn't responded.

I have been hauling a suit around the great. You're wearing a suit? Oh, not me. I'm going to the White House. You're not wearing a suit? No, I've been there a hundred times now. You've never been there. How exciting. Yes, I know. I know you're a hundred times more important than me. No, I've never been there. I didn't say that. I've just been there a hundred times. I've lived in Washington.

Well, yes, you did, kind of. Little bit. No, I didn't. Little bit. I didn't. Stop with your weird insecurity about everything. I just happened to live there. My insecurity is called common sense. Have you met me? All right. I covered it as a reporter, so I have obviously been there. It's wonderful. You're going to love it. I'm really excited. It's a thrill every time I go there. Yeah, I'm really excited. There's a lot of checking, a lot of people you have to give your things. It's going to take a

minute to get in there, just so you know. I think that's the smart thing to do. And I am going to get you a special tour because I know people. I'm really excited. I can't going to get you a special tour because I know people. I'm really excited. I can't wait to see you at the White House. Anyway, we'll see what happens. We'll see. We'll listen, see what the executive orders say.

Then we'll have a commentary on it. And then hopefully Scott will not be jailed. That's a 50-50 chance on that situation. You know, I have never, I have never been, I've never had any interaction with law enforcement. I've managed to avoid all that. You're just about to. There's a lot of it at the White House and it needs to be there, actually. I have friends in the agency. I hung out with a guy from the CIA at that Apollo thing we were at.

Yeah, you did. You know what's interesting of AI? A couple of things I learned from the AI panel. I think you may have hosted it or moderated it. I probably did. You weren't listening. Someone said that they think that it'll be great for agencies. And the example they used was the IRS. They said that AI will be able to sort through very complicated tax returns and say, okay, this is where they own money.

This is likely where they're not being honest. And then the other thing that really struck me was that this partner in law firm who was there said they've been testing AI. And what they found is they not only use AI to make a lawyer more efficient, but they have AIs speak to, generative AIs speak to the other party and negotiate. And they ended up in the majority of times coming to the same agreement or price settlement as lawyers. Wow. Yeah. Faster. Faster too. Yeah. In like a tenth of a second, right? Yeah. It's really going to impact law. That is absolutely true. Yeah. And also what I would say is there was someone from the Central Intelligence Agency, our former CIA individual in charge of cyber defense, Andy, I forget his last name, really impressive guy. And also we had former Secretary of Defense Esper there.

Impressive man. And then the former ambassador to Russia is at Stanford. Was it McAuliffe? McFaul. Anyways, McFaul. And I'll tell you, every time I meet these individuals, I just feel better and better about America. These are both sides of the aisle. All of them super smart, super devoted, very honest, very open. And you can just tell all of these guys, you know, they were hanging out with a lot of masters of the universe who had made tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars.

And the only difference is one group of people decided to serve their country. Yeah. And these are really impressive, hardworking people. I would agree. I would point out that Esper was fired by Trump for doing his job and not attacking him. That's like a merit badge of moral compass. I know, but it's incredible that this is who Trump was firing, this very impressive guy. Just so you know, just a very quick thing we mentioned last week, it's been a year since Elon Musk purchased Twitter, and the report card is, as we have said, not great, which we predicted.

Daily active users are down compared to a year ago. U.S. app loan loans are down 57 percent, according to third-party data. X's top five advertisers are spending 67 percent less on ads than they did before the acquisition. There's also the subscription plan hasn't paid off. Content moderation dump fire seems to be getting worse every day. Elon tweeted that he was going to buy Twitter to help humanity. I don't think he's helped himself. He is all saying these are all wrong, of course, has said that and everything's up and to the right. And so has Linda Yaccarino. But it's pretty clear the business is cratering in a really significant way. A lot of it having to do with

just changing the name. I want to share a prediction you made right here a year ago as the acquisition was about to go through. You're going to see in the next three to six months, a direct, credible new competitor to Twitter. There's just too much opportunity here. It's been so poorly run for so long. There's so many addictive, wonderful qualities to the notion of a microblogging platform. There's just too much opportunity here. And so many users, so many advertisers are just sick of the Dorsey, Elon sideways. So there's so much human capital that's experienced in the sector. So my prediction is you're going to see a competitor emerge. Yeah, it's come true. Threads, I would say, is probably the most significant one. But there's a lot of them. There's a lot of them.

Yeah. The thing I got wrong was I didn't think or know it was going to be threads. Obviously, we hadn't heard of threads yet. But essentially, Twitter had 100% or 99.9% of the quote-unquote microblogging market and now has 82% because a new competitor, Threads, has 18%. Yeah, and there's others. The real thing, the real stat here is that a year post-acquisition, X is singular. Twitter is singular. I cannot think of another company in non-wartime that has lost somewhere between 55% and 70% of its revenue. That's over a billion dollars in a 12-month period. I've never seen it. This is the greatest meltdown or poor business performance in history. And my theory, my theory is that he wants the company to go down so much that he can buy back the debt on pennies on the dollar. And he has hired a CEO

and he said, go to that, go to Kara Swisher's conference and act aloof, stupid, ignorant, and like, you don't know what the fuck you are doing. And Miss Yaccarino said, I got this. I don't think she meant to do that, but that's funny. I you know, there's a lot of rumors around her, whether she's going to stay. Just recently, I've heard quite a few. Really? And is the rumor she's going to be fired or she wants out? I'm I'm trying to track it down. I just have heard a lot of it recently, just this week. And it was I don't know why there's so much noise. You never know. You never know that there's names of people who would replace her. Maybe she's sick of it. I don't know. I'm sure she'd deny it or say we're wrong. I'm just telling you there's a lot of noise

out there, Linda, about you. Whether it's true or not, I don't know, because I haven't done enough reporting. By the way, traffic to his account has doubled. He's basically said, I don't want advertisers to see anything. And if they see anything, there's a chance it'll be next to a swastika because I fired the whole safety team. But I want more and more people to come to my profile. Yeah. What's interesting is I talked to some people at this event we went to about that, about what's happening. And the reason why, you know, there's the expression, and you've used it, that banks are not storage facilities, they're moving companies, right? They move money. And that some things are storage facility, right? Some financial instruments are

storage. And that these banks should not be holding this debt, but that they can't get rid of it because of the loss is so big. And so they're sitting there. And it's sort of a death grip between Elon and them of who's going to blink first, right? And so if it goes down to the price it is, he's hoping to get it out from under them, this debt buy up, I think it's $13 billion in debt. And there are buyers out there, but Elon will always pay a penny more, right? And so, you know, who's going to, will he declare bankruptcy? Will they force him into it? Doubtful. I don't think he'd want to take the L here and be like Cersei walking through Westeros naked, having someone behind her. That's a visual. Shame,

shame, shame. Anyways, but I don't think he, the reason why when I talk to big investors, I say, if this thing goes out, they're saying that they think it's going to go out at 85 cents. And what you were referring to is that the banks have to report the loss on their next earnings call when it trades, the first trade when they move it. And they experienced an unprecedented acceleration in interest rates where 12% coupon on debt on a company that has massively declined in value in concert with a dramatic increase in interest rates, they just got caught holding a melting ice cube. And once they sell it, they have to recognize those losses. So they're hoping, they were all, and the three of them are coordinating, it's Barclays, B of A, and Morgan Stanley, they're all hoping that the markets would recover. But my guess is not officially, but Musk has sort of a ropher here, a right of

first refusal, and that is they'll go get the best offer they can from a big credit investor, and then they'll turn around to Elon and say, wouldn't you rather just not have anyone with any debt against you? Who will fire you, by the way? Who will fire you? Well, they won't have that power, though. As long as he makes those interest rate payments, when you have debt, you don't have governance right. What you have is just a claim against the company that's first in line in the cash structure. Yeah. Well, I'm saying if he doesn't pay. Yeah, right.

He can hold it. He can wait them out. As long as he's willing to lose money, which he has been, obviously. He's plenty of it. He's in the power position, sort of, in a weird way. Yeah, I don't. I mean, some people have said that he's massively over levered, but I just think the increases in value of his holdings that at the end of the day, 12 percent on 13 million is what is that? That's one point five six billion a year in interest payments.

He has that change in his couch cushions. Yeah. So I don't think he's going to. As long as he wants to hold it, as long as he's interested in it, he can do it. And their banks are fucked. The banks should have never made that loan, but they did. And here we are. Actually, make a prediction now. Do you think he'll get a hold of it? I think he'll get a hold of it. That's my guess. He'll get a hold of the debt. I don't know. I really don't. If he has to buy the debt, I mean, keep

in mind, it's face value of $13 billion. If it comes out, if they can get $0.85 on it in the free market, that means he- They're not getting $0.85. Everyone says $40 to me, I have to say. Oh, I think it's $40. If it was $0.40, that would be an effective coupon of 25% or 28%. And anyone would take that risk because Twitter is worth $5 billion. Anyways, but I've read $0.85, so whatever it is, but he still called 70 cents. That makes this guy to come up with $9 billion. He does. To buy that.

I don't know. I don't. It's a lot of money. Yeah. You're right. It's a death grip. That's what they said. Death grip.

But then again, the guy's worth $250 billion. Yeah. And this is the problem. There was a wealth tax that's being proposed as rearing its head again. I used to be against it. I think it's sort of private property. Once you pay your taxes, you can't really come in and start taking money from people. I'm now of the mind when I see our deficits and just how much money has been crowded in the top 1%. And you have an individual who can make these sorts of decisions

that have such enormous impact on the world because of the aggregation of wealth. I'm now starting to think we do need a multilateral, some sort of wealth tax. But anyways, I just think it's insane that someone can make these sorts of purchases. Yeah, interesting. We'll see what happens. But, you know, I do think he's in the poll position in this case in a really loser way, but still. Okay, let's get to our first big story. After three weeks, three failed candidates and hours of closed-door negotiations, it sounded rather testy. We finally have a Speaker of the House, Louisiana Congressman Mike Johnson. Yes, you have never heard of him. That is correct.

Johnson was elected on the first ballot Wednesday in a 220 to 209 vote with the support of all House Republicans. They all got exhausted, I think. I think this guy got lucky that way. To give you a sense of who he is, since no one's ever heard of him, he's an evangelical Christian, a social conservative. And let me just say, he's a social conservative, social conservative, who's opposed certifying the 2020 election. In fact, he was at the forefront of that, the forefront of that, not just one of the many. He was at the top of that pile. one of the many. He was at the top of that pile, voted against aid to Ukraine, is anti-abortion, has worked to ban same-sex marriage, and last year sponsored a bill that basically a national version of Florida's don't say gay law. As you might imagine, I'm loving him. Now, he's really unqualified for this job. And the fact that he's second in line to the president is terrifying. This guy is unqualified for this job. And so far to the right

of most Americans, it's really quite astonishing that they went with him. I can't believe it, but Jim Jordan's less problematic than this guy. Yeah. I mean, based on my initial read, it's just David Duke without the baggage. You know, it's just, if you read this guy, his background, first off, his statement was really troubling. He said that God had ordained this. Right. And when someone actually believes that God has ordained this, and then don't say gay, Bill. I think he believes it.

I think the most, he claimed that school shootings were a function of them teaching evolution in school. Evolution, yep. teaching evolution in school. And even equally disturbing, if not more disturbing, he used a more elegant legal language means of trying to arrest the peaceful transfer of power. So the second in line, it's just enormously disappointing. If you think more broadly, I believe our government is essentially being run by or kind of on three pillars, if you will. The first is, economically, our policies are dictated by what's best for the top 1%. Whether you look at our tax policy, whether you look at bailouts, it's really like, okay, throw some loaves of bread and some circuses for the

bottom 90, but it's really all about ensuring the 1% stay as wealthy or wealthier. On social policy, we've become this white Christian nationalist government. I mean, if you look at what has happened from a public policy, social policy standpoint, whether it's Roe being overturned, I mean, school, ridiculous proposals. It's very Handmaid's Tale. It is. It's white Christian nationalist. And then the third thing is, in order to pacify the far left of the left, well, let's engage in reckless spending and have $7 trillion in expenditures with $5.5 trillion in receipts. Well, the only thing that passes for anything bipartisan is

reckless spending. Oh, you want to cut taxes? You want more social spending? I know, let's do both. And so what you have is a country that is, in my opinion, where every country is making progress, is regressing. And the notion that, as you said, the second in command tried to get in the way of a peaceful, on an economic level. Just it's like Trump is going to yell at me. This guy went into it with great enthusiasm and threatened other members. It's not it's a very different level of involvement. And this guy was right at the top of this thing. Hand selected by Trump. He tried to get in the way of the peaceful transfer of power. And this is the person that's supposed to oversee the administration of the certification of the next election. Yeah, that's when he believes he believes God doesn't like gay people. I mean, this is, I just hope Kamala and the, you know, the vice president and the president don't travel together.

I agree. I was thinking that myself. The thought that this guy might be president. Yeah. Also, the other Republicans are worse. The ones that don't believe, these middle squishes who actually resisted Jordan didn't resist this guy because he's friendlier and wears a nicer suit. No, that's, you know, no one knew him. But here's the thing.

What was really disturbing was that photo of all of them when a reporter asked a legitimate question about his election denial stuff. And the Republicans, including some old lady in the front, were booing and yelling, shut up. And response to that video, I tweeted, puerile self-emoliation combined with toxic suck-uppery and pathetic power jostling and a desperate need for attention. This is the GOP 2023. I can't believe they voted for this guy if they wouldn't vote for Jordan.

I don't even get it. Jordan's less so of this guy. Let me just say, he also has a podcast with his wife, Kelly, their podcast co-hosts. They have a show called Truth Be Told. Let's listen to a clip from earlier this year where the two talked about what scared them about some members of Congress. Some of these voices now are in this chamber arguing that our rights do not come from God. You know, think about how scary that is.

You know, think about how scary that is. If you believe your rights come from government, then it means you don't really owe any allegiance at all to God. Yeah. You have no accountability. Well, you're not free. You're not free because the people who are governing you and giving you things in exchange for those things always comes a sacrifice of your liberty. Absolutely. Okay. It's called the Constitution, sir. This is the guy a sacrifice of your liberty. Absolutely. Okay. It's called the Constitution, sir.

This is the guy in charge of the Constitution right now. I think I met them. I actually think I met them at a key party in Boca Raton. Yeah, no dick jokes on that podcast. They sound like fun people to roll with. I'm sorry. So as an atheist, I don't have – wait. I don't get it. I don't have an invisible friend.

What does this mean for me? I'm not – I shouldn't pay taxes. I don't have, wait, I don't get it. I don't have an invisible friend. What does this mean for me? I'm not, I shouldn't pay taxes. I don't have rights. That means you are, you cannot make dick jokes on this podcast next year when he takes over as king. He's not exactly a household name. Do you think that's an asset? This is kind of where we are in terms of our politics. It's easier if you don't have a track record to run on. People knew who Jim Jordan is,

and it sunk them. Nobody knows who this guy is, and they didn't have enough time to look into the fact that he's blatantly homophobic, that if you look at the most unstable nations in the world, they generally are run by people who you can't reason with and can't negotiate with because they think God is on their side. When good people do good things, bad people do bad things, when good people do really bad things, it's usually because they live in a society where old men have convinced them that God is on their side when they do these things and that they are morally superior because of the God they worship. It's one of the basic foundations of our society is that we're secular, that we say, look. Secular. Yep. He also rules over one of the poorest districts in the United States, by the way.

Real problems of poverty there. You know, even Susan Collins, you know, a reporter asked, what would it be like to work with him? And she said she'd have to Google him. That's, I mean, you've got to be kidding me. But now we know, you know, I mean, it's very clear what this guy is pretty quickly once you start to read up on him. Yeah, I don't, I don't know what this means. I'll be very curious. What do you think this means for the Republican Party and for the elections? Do you think this hurts them? I think they're fucked. I think, you know, he's super, he's not just anti-abortion, he's real anti-abortion. He's way down that lane. So I

think that's a problem because the electorate has indicated they're not. There's, of course, the government shutdown coming up. So who knows where he stands on this? I think he's inexperienced at running this. So that's an issue. I don't know. I think he's anti-gay and anti-abortion is not a particularly good. That chip has sailed for most of the electorate, not for these people, but most of the electorate. You know, I can't tell how much of it is just my anger and depression growing as I get older. But I look at the far right, white Christian nationalists. I'm incredibly disappointed, quite frankly, by some what you would think of as bastions of far less progressive leadership or thought on campuses. I can tell you the faculty on these campuses that we're just

absolutely flummoxed at what we're saying. I mean, just- Yeah, I agree. But you know what, Scott? I liked Ronald Reagan when I was 17 years old, so I don't know what to tell you. I think people come around as they become better educated. I can't get over that. I was actually, I got so much shit in my fraternity. I was literally, I don't want to say ostracized. We were given a lot of shit because I was the one guy who was supporting Mondale. Were you?

I don't know why I liked Reagan. I guess I liked his message of hope. Oh, my God. It's impossible not to like. It was a stud. Yeah, the message of hope. Mourning in America. I was tired of Jimmy Carter.

I think that was all. I don't know. I think Ronald Reagan is cuddly compared to these guys. Oh, come on. He's just your basic conservative. Although he was heinous on AIDS and things like that. But nonetheless, you can see why. You can understand.

He was much more. Anyway, we're so far away from Reagan. I can't even tell you with this guy. This guy is a dangerous person. And by the way, I think, you know, interestingly, everyone's like, he's like Jim Jordan with a jacket and a smile. I think he looks, when I looked at a picture of him holding gavel and he had a little smirk on his face, I thought, oh, he's preening. He's a preener. The word preening completely, and I thought, he's a very fussy preener.

And I don't know what to take away from that, but that was my first, I was like, oh, he knows exactly how he looks all the time. And I don't think Jim Jordan does. And that's a compliment, actually, for him. That's the only one he's going to get from me. But he's quite a dangerous choice. Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Metta getting sued and take a listener mail question about leadership styles. When is it okay to be an asshole?

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and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back with our second big story. Meta is facing a major legal battle. 41 states in the Washington DC are suing Meta, saying the company harms kids by building addictive features into Instagram and Facebook. No shit, Sherlock. A 233-page federal complaint alleges the company engaged in a scheme, a quote, scheme to exploit young users for profit by misleading them on safety features and harmful content. Another no shit, Sherlock. Consequences for Meta could include financial penalties and restitution. Meta said in a statement it agreed with the commitment to providing teens

with safe, positive experiences online, but also expressed disappointment with state officials taking this path. This is something you've talked about a lot. What do you think of this sweeping action? And there's lots of other multiple lawsuits. Attorneys general from 33 states filed a federal suit together, and eight states and D.C. are filing separate suits. So it's a lot of legal activity. Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the tobacco litigation.

I think it'll be drawn out. I think it'll get to the right place, but I think it'll be a decade. And unfortunately, the numbers are just so enormous, they'll be able to register tens of billions. I don't know if you saw Meta's earnings. They're nothing short of staggering. Yeah, we're going to talk about those in a minute. They are stunning. But, you know, and I was heartened. I thought my first thought was, who are the nine states that didn't join this? I've said, look, Kara, I think when we look back on this era of big tech, I think we're going to feel bad about the monopoly abuse. The decile of companies who are the most valuable are running away with the stock market. And that's just not good for the

economy. I think we're going to look back on the weaponization of our elections, vaccine, misinformation, and we're going to regret all of it. I think it's all going to be dwarfed by the one regret, and that is I think we're going to look back on this era and think, how the fuck did we let this happen to our children? And I think right at the center of that is going to be meta. And so I hope this grinds through the courts more quickly than it should. I don't know what the legal complaint is. I don't know how they attribute it back to specific harm when they'll have very talented psychiatrists and experts saying, no, it's concierge bulldozer parenting. They'll be able to see emails. They'll be able to see what they thought at the time. minds to date haven't been an algebra of deterrence have been an algebra of incentive it's like well this is this is just the cost of doing business when when we get these civil penalties so i hope

that i just for for example care i just for the life of me can't understand why social media isn't age-gated why does a 14 year old girl need to be on instagram or snap i just it doesn't make any sense to me so they want to do instagram for kids come on they. They don't. Remember that? They're way beyond that. I thought that was a joke. If you were meta, how would you handle this? Just wait them out. Wait them out. I would do exactly what they are doing.

And that is ignore the damage I am doing to the world because I'm making a lot of money and having a great career. And everyone around me is so friendly and so nice. This can't be that terrible a place. And let the good people, the chief legal officer and our army of lawyers ask really thoughtful questions, hold us up in court, pretend to give a good goddamn and call for regulation. Yeah, protecting teens for teens. Yeah, just wait them out and fight the battle. Take 1% of your operating profits in terms of

lobbying and legal costs. And then if a 5, 10, $25 billion fine gets levied against you in three, five, or seven years, no problem, because we've made a lot more than that. Depressing little Becky. Although interestingly, I've been talking to a couple meta people who are there, and all of them are like, it's the best company I've worked for, so well run, and we'll talk about that in a second. And they're like, I hate myself. Right? Every one of them has a version of I hate myself for this.

And so it's a really, you know, and they're definitely like, how can I get out of here intact with my soul in some ways? And it's interesting. At different jobs, like what they do. Like some of them are involved in these particular products, but they get it, right? They understand what's happened here and they've been there a long time, I would say. My theory has always been that the more, I don't know, sinful or damaging to society the company is, the more talented and the more likable and the better they treat their employees. Smartest, when I was working at Profit, a strategy firm, smartest organization, top to bottom, nicest people, some of the best treated employees, Chevron. Right up there, Altria. right up there, Altria, right up there, Exxon.

Days are smart. They treat their employees really well because they're usually really profitable. It's really strange. And then, you know, you go to, you meet with management at like Tom's and like, God, what assholes. I've just, it's really weird. The more socially minded,

I think there's an inverse correlation between how well companies treat their employees. And not Patagonia. Patagonia does a nice job, I think there's an inverse correlation between how well companies treat their employees. And not Patagonia. Patagonia does a nice job, I think. They're a nice. I mean, it comes back to the same thing. The more romantic and sexy a business sounds, the more awful the industry is. Go to work in fashion and see how much fun that is.

Yes. So, listen, here's the thing. They are really good at business. We should note it wasn't bad news for Meta this week at all. Company More Money for Lobbying just reported that revenue rose 23%. How impressive on a huge company. To $34 billion in the third quarter. Profit was $11.6 billion, more than double from last year.

They had a lot of costs last year because the metaverse, they made that shift back. They had a lot of problems last year, including recovering from the pandemic, etc. By the way, another company, which is also running ahead of everyone else, also posting strong earnings, adding 8.76, this is Netflix, adding 8.76 million global subscribers during the third quarter, doing, I think it's this password thing that they're working on, etc. 8.5 billion, revenue rising from 7.9 billion a year ago. Whoa, good job, both of these guys from a business point of view. The most underreported business story of this week was Meta and Netflix's earnings, because what they have pulled off, I think, is arguably unprecedented.

And that is the majority of big tech's massive acceleration in shareholder value is a function of one thing. They're investing in growth. They're smart. They know how to spend their money. Their expenses go up 15%. Their revenues go up 18%. Their profits go up 20% or 30%. What Meta pulled off this quarter, I have never seen before. And that is they spent less money. Their operating expenses fell 7% year on year as they reduced their headcount by 24%. So they reduced headcount, they reduced investment, and their revenue accelerated 23%. So when you have the champagne and cocaine of reduced costs but accelerating revenue growth, you end up with an increase in year-on-year earnings of like 100 plus percent. I've never seen it. And Netflix did the same thing. The Writers Guild effectively transferred wealth from the linear

guys to Netflix. And what was central to Meta's performance was AI. And that is they're using AI to increase engagement on the Reels function of Instagram. And also they've used AI, and this gets less coverage, they've used AI to circumvent the non-tracking functionality put in place by Apple. And their advertisers are actually claiming that Facebook— That's one thing they did. You're right. You're right. They did that.

And they also are being a little creative with Threads, I have to say. I think it's a good product. They moved away from their metaverse bullshit. You know, they save costs there. But Threads isn't making any money yet. No, it isn't. But I'm saying they're doing something interesting, right? You know, they could turn on, they could make some money from that easily,

the way they did at Instagram. You can see it on a path towards money. You can see that thing very easily, making money. He's just a very good operator, Mark Zuckerberg and the people around him, like Bill Gates was in his heyday. Just a good business person. Not every founder is, but he happens to be. The other thing at Netflix is, first of all, they're cleaning up the passwords, which I think a lot of people converted to maybe their ad tier that weren't paying before, the cheaper tier. They raised the prices. Their advertising business isn't as going as well

as yet, but I don't think it doesn't mean it won't, right? I think you have an opportunity there. And they have costs across the globe compared to these other media companies. They can equalize it across the globe and, of course, save money from everything. So they're in an excellent position. And they're good at what they do. Again, another good managed product. They're good at managing their product. And someone said at the thing we were at, like, did anybody ever cancel? Netflix went up, I don't know, $4, $3. Who canceled?

No one canceled. No one canceled because it's a product that's necessary. They raised their prices 15%. Coming out of a strike that was supposed to cripple content makers for five months, they felt confident. And during reduced costs, they would raise their prices because the delta between what they offer and everyone else offers, including linear television, is so great. They have the confidence to raise their prices 15%. I believe the ad product will eventually go away, or they'll just let it die.

Really? Why? Tell me. Because I've always said it's not core to the brand. I think core to Netflix's brand is that the key attribute of any company that wants to build a company worth over $100 billion is they build a time machine. And I've always believed that the core attribute of Netflix is that if you only let your children watch Netflix, they save 11 days a year watching commercials. And that ad tier, I just don't think it's going to be worth the diversion. The rest of the world. I don't think it's necessarily for Americans, but I do think it's fine to have that product. It's like the cheaper iPhone, I guess. I don't know. I feel it's fine. I think it's fine. They did fire some of their ad people that were initially with

them. But we'll see where it goes. We'll see where it goes. But just in contrast, let's talk a little bit. I think Snapchat is a great company with a great product. They did well this quarter. Facebook added the value, added the revenue of Snap in one quarter. It grew, their revenue, Snap's revenue grew 5%, which is great because it reversed two straight quarters of revenue declines. They have 400 million people.

They have a 12% increase in daily active users. Engagement increased. But we're talking about kind of the little engine to a certain extent that couldn't. Their losses are up. Their net losses have expanded from 72 million the same, two years ago to 368 million this year. I mean, quite frankly, it just wasn't a great, it was just okay. And then the other thing that people missed was the market has decided to transfer revenues from Google to Microsoft. And that is Microsoft-inspired investment in AI that they're incorporating to Microsoft Office, that they're incorporating into their search.

The revenues were up and people are punishing Google or Alphabet, which all of a sudden seems undermanaged, and transferring that capital to Microsoft. And if you look at the multiples now on kind of enterprise value to or price to sales. Meta's at 7x, Snap's at 3, Microsoft's at 12, and Google's at 5. Google actually looks cheap. I personally think Snap will be bought up by someone because it's a great product. Well, it should be. It's subscale. Listen, their $4 a month subscription service has 5 million subscribers. That's 250 million bucks. The intelligence thing, the AI, my AI is working really well. But who? I don't know. I don't know who should buy them, but it's actually not a bad

property to look at given, you know, they continue to, it's a little engine that tries or could try. So I don't know. I feel like it's a really good product. It's my kids use it. It's fantastic. And it's subscale. It's really too bad. Hence what I just said. And I think they're screaming buy to someone. Anyway, we'll see where that goes. Maybe Apple. I don't know.

Is it Apple? I don't think Apple wants anywhere near social. I don't know. Netflix. Netflix. Netflix. Why not? Seems to me their business is fine on its own.

That's the problem. Snap makes for a great acquisition, but by who? By who, you're right. Disney can't afford them now. I did an interview with Dara Khosrowshahi that's appearing soon. And one of the things he was talking about was his ad business on Uber and Uber Eats, getting big, getting interesting. It's a great model. Anyway, that makes total sense to me.

They know where you're going. They know where you're going. Start running ads. Anyway, they're doing rather well in that area. Surprise. Freight is not doing as well, but that certainly is. Anyway, let's pivot quickly to a listener question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. This question comes from Marcus in Sao Paulo, Brazil. I'll read it. Hi, Cara and Scott, a quickish question on leadership. Scott talks a lot about how he's learned to be more positive, thoughtful, and considerate leader. However, he did reach a considerable level of success and wealth while he still had a much different style. While I do appreciate when he promotes his humane attitude, I wonder if a thoughtful, considerate person would have had the same opportunity when the market dynamics and social status dynamics, to an extent,

still seem to reward assholeness rather than kindness. In a nutshell, Scott, do you think you'd be in this position that you are today had you been a nicer version of yourself when you started off? Thanks. Much love to the show. Marcus. What a good question, Scott. Could you be where you are without being an asshole?

You mean hungover in Vegas after being in the sphere with friends? Yes. You mean hungover in Vegas after being in the sphere with friends? Yes, yes. The answer is yes, because the way I would describe effective leaders in business is they have three attributes. The first is they demonstrate excellence. Typically, the CEO is as good or better than anyone in the building at one thing, whether it's selling or they have a great analytical mind. You know, I just don't think you can be a professional manager. You have to be really good at something. And that's what I found, that the CEO is very good at something. David Solomon was a great trader at some point. Anyways, the second is that they hold people accountable. And you can call that being an asshole, but set out very clear goals for people. And then when people aren't meeting those

objectives, they sit them down and they say, look, you're not meeting your objectives and you need to let me know how I can be helpful here, but you're not going to survive here if you continue to miss your numbers. And it's a difficult conversation that is really easy to avoid. But I think great leaders hold their people accountable. And also, I've said quite frankly that strategic firing, everyone talks about hiring. I never bought this notion, this Hallmark Channel movie that, oh, if we just find the right role for them or it's the culture's fault. No, some good people sometimes should just be let go. They're just not working out for whatever reason. And I think that we're too slow to do that.

I mean, I know that sounds terrible, but I've always been slow to hire and be quick to fire. And I know how terrible that sounds. But in a small company, you can't have people who aren't working out. And I've always thought the quicker you can fire them, the more generous you can be in terms of severance payments. And then finally, the team with the best players wins. And I think empathy is a form of compensation. And that is, I'm going to get to know you and what you really value. And people value different things.

Some people just want, they want to have their name in media. So if you get an inquiry from the New York Times, say, this is the person you should speak to. And that's hugely valuable. Some people want to manage other people, whatever it might be, try and figure out their unique wants and needs and show that you will, you will, you know, you're on their side. You're trying to, you're trying to really figure out what's right for them. And people follow excellence that they think you're going to make a lot of money and generate a lot of money. They'll follow you because they'll get to draft off of your success. What I do think you can do, and then I didn't do was I thought that I was raised in an era of Steve Jobs where occasionally

in a meeting, calling out people or saying provocative, rude or aggressive things demonstrated leadership that if I was talented and a bit of an asshole, it meant I was a genius. Whereas if I'd been talented and just a little kinder on occasion, you know, in my era, that was considered you were sort of just talented. And I really do regret there are just some situations, especially with young people, they needed more watering. There's a few people I fired, and I regret it. I thought, you know what, I should have worked harder to figure it out, especially a young person. I don't know. I don't think you're as much an asshole as you think you were. And I don't think Steve Jobs was either.

You didn't work with me. You also were kind of like just more strange than anything else, as I recall. Let me do a dramatic reading from my book, Burn Book, in the section about Scott. In 2017, I attended a tech event in Germany called DLD, Digital Life Design, and I watched as Scott Galloway, an NYU Stern business professor of brand strategy and digital marketing, delivered what was a wacko presentation that included him donning a wig and lip syncing to George Michael's Freedom 90 for way too long. While Scott's casual arrogance was familiar to me, his insights were fresh and new.

I invited him to join me on Recode Decode, and he said yes. Oh, my God, my nipples are hard. I know. When does this book come out? There's more. There's a lot more. I have a lot more about you in there. Thank you. Yeah, I know. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I think there's more to you than that. Yeah, but Kara, I don't know if you feel this way. I feel as if I had. What you realize is if you attain any level of power and influence, a tiny bit of kindness, a tiny bit of generosity goes so far. The most wasted resource in the world is good intentions. When someone's doing a good job, when you admire somebody,

especially when they're younger than you and you're in charge of the company, to bring them, pull them into a conference room and go, this was outstanding. Or you are such an impressive person. Yeah, more praise is definitely as someone who has been in both sides. It does. It goes so far. Yeah. Although I'll tell you, it works the other way, too.

A lot of tough people are really tough on me. Also, I learned from. So it just depends. Yeah, be honest, be straight. Yeah. I don't know. I wasn't much of a screamer as a boss. I don't like being a boss.

I don't think i'm not i wasn't much of a screamer as a boss i don't like being a boss i don't think i was necessarily me i would people would imagine that i was like that but i wasn't actually it's not i don't really like managing i know i don't like managing actually is what it was it's like teaching i don't really don't like it like it's not there's nothing wrong with it but anyway good question from brazil marcus thank you so much. Scott remains an asshole. Trust me. He has some asshole quality. And strange. But strange.

You are still strange. And you would put on a wig if you could much more than you would. Hello. What are you going for this Halloween? Oh, my God. I told you. I'm going as Deadpool after the fire. People think I look like Ryan Reynolds after he's mutilated in that fire.

Oh, yeah. I love Halloween. Anyway, it's Deadpool. Daddy's going as Deadpool. I, yeah. I love Halloween. Anyway, it's Deadpool. Daddy's going to Deadpool. I hate it. I hate costumes. I'm going as Kara Swisher. That's who I'm going as.

I'm going as Kara Swisher. I'm wearing soft pants and, you know, a general I can't stand this attitude. Although I have to say I do enjoy taking the kids trick-or-treating because, now, Clara's all into it now, and she has 17 costume changes, et cetera. But this is the year Saul gets it. He sort of got it last year, but he's two now, close to being two. And what happens in that year when they become two and they do trick-or-treating, all of a sudden, the penny drops, and they're like, this is a fantastic fucking racket. Free candy.

I dress up. It's amazing. You know, I remember Clara, you could see her go, wait a second candy. I dress up. It's amazing. You know, I remember Claire, you could see her go, wait a second here. This is fantastic. This is good. I'm super excited for that moment for Saul. Anyway, I forget what he's going on as a giraffe or something like that. I absolutely loved Halloween. I had little kids. That's one of my favorite outfits. My youngest one is Einstein. My oldest one is an artist once. A good friend of mine, his daughter this year, they're Jews, but it's hilarious.

The daughter's going as Santa Claus. That's what she wants to go as, which I thought was hilarious. But the power move as a parent, as a dad, is I not only, I used to sneak their candy, like when they were asleep, I'd eat it. Now I eat it in front of them. That's the power move. That's the power move. Do they still do trick-or-treating? They're a little too old, right? No, they're too old.

Their father still does it. Yeah, well, they show up. Teenagers like that show up with no costumes and a bag. Yeah, they just want my game. I'm like, no, you must perform for Carousel. I do not go trick-or-treating. Amanda likes to dress up. She goes, and I sit in front of the house with the candy.

And I'm like, no, yes. Anyway, if you've got a question of your own, you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-pivot. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for your weekly prediction. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply.

Details at fizz.ca. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. Okay, so I just want to acknowledge this sounds tinfoil hat and a bit paranoid, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I think at some point in the future, we're going to find out that the CCP was using TikTok to manipulate and divide America with a disproportionate amount of anti-Israel content that they're elevating. I think they see this as an issue that is dividing America. Oh, you think they're actually manipulating it, isn't just people? All I can tell you is if I were for the NSA and the CIA, and I had a neural plant into every Chinese youth, into their brains, I would be putting my thumb on the scale of content

that diminished their view of their leadership and their society, they would be stupid not to be doing this. Well, I know, but you know they do deny this rather vehemently, the U.S. people running the company. And I'm just saying. I doubt the U.S. people have anything to do with it. I think this would be so easy and elegant and insidious. Well, maybe.

And I think there's data coming out. And I got some interesting data from a guy who's been tracking this pretty closely. It certainly looks like it. It doesn't mean there's proof. You know, I've been the one that's been sounding the tick-tock alarm for years. Yeah, yes. Okay. All right.

Go ahead. But, yeah, I think you're going to find out. I don't know when. It might be a year. It the alert for years. Yeah, yes. Okay. All right, go ahead. But yeah, I think you're going to find out. I don't know when. It might be a year. It might be 10 years. I think you're going to find out that when the CCP saw an opportunity to create more. I mean, here's the thing. The biggest threat globally isn't Hamas.

I think that's a huge threat. It isn't Putin, although I think it's a huge threat. in America, is that we are dividing internally, and technology and gerrymandering and minority rule is ripping this nation apart. And the greatest geopolitical weapon against us isn't tanks. It isn't kinetic power. We spend more than anybody else. We have the finest fighting force in the world. It isn't economic. We continue to attract the most seminal breakthrough technology in history. What do you know? It's all within a bike ride of SFO called AI. The only way to come after us, the only way to reduce our power and what is the greatest

experiment in history called U.S. democracy is to get us to continue to hate each other. And the cheapest, most elegant, most insidious way to do this when you, again, have control over America's youth is to start raising topics that divide us. I think they would be stupid not to be doing this. And some preliminary research on anti-Israel content, and I realize this sounds paranoid, and as a Jew, I realize there's some bias here. And I realize it sounds paranoid. And as a Jew, I realize there's some bias here. But I have been shocked at the amount of pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel content coming out of high schools and colleges. And then when I think, where do they get their information? Where are they getting this information?

And all roads lead to the same place. It's TikTok. So we'll see. But I think in several years, we're all going to say, oh, that was obvious they were doing it and find out they were. I think it's happening right now. Interesting prediction.

I'm going to make a short prediction. Yep. There's something off about this speaker. There's something creepy, off, weird. You think? No, but I think he's in for a world of hurt. I think not just this crazy shit. Just that one podcast thing we ran

was like already problematic. But there's something wrong with him. And I don't know what it is. This is just me as Kara Swisher, Spidey Sense reporter. I think he's in for a world of hurt. Not because people are trying to get him. It's that, I don't know, there's something off about him. I don't say this about Jim Jordan. I think Jim

Jordan's a terrible person, and I think he looked the other way. But we knew him. He was the devil we knew. What you're saying is he hasn't been vetted. The deep corners of this guy's life have not been, there's been no flashlight on him. I mean, the thing about Jim Jordan is pretty much everything had been aired. He's so performative, this guy. You know, I have a lot of relatives who are religious in the way he is, and I find them genuine. I don't like a lot of what they say, but there's something off about this guy. That's just Kara saying it. Something.

Will he be at this White House thing? I don't know. Let's see. We'll sidle up to him. He's the speaker, something. Will he be at this White House thing? I don't know. Let's see. We'll go. We'll sidle up to him. He's the speaker, right? Yeah. Make a pass at him.

Make a pass at him? Yeah. I don't know. All right. I'll make a pass at him. We'll say, anyway, we'll both make a pass at him. I'm trying to think what is more disturbing. No, we're not going to make a pass at him.

Anyway, we are going to have a good time at the White House. We still won't be there. And when we tape next, it'll be before we go. So not until Thursday, we'll have a report, which you may read of in news accounts. But we will be here in Washington together on Monday. are you are super excited white house people scott galloway is super excited he's never been there we'd like to put the dog on as they say for scott galloway um and there there's a ton of fans in the white house just so you know and it'll be good it'll be fun there you go all right scott we're almost done uh but i hear you're gonna be on bill maher fourth time tomorrow wow i'm going on with that total gangster the woman from Fox, who's like insanely reasonable. She's my friend.

Say hi, Jess Tarlow. You're friends with her? Yes, of course I am. She seems like an impressive person. She's amazing. And you know who they're interviewing at the beginning of the show? Who? Andrew Cuomo.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so that should be interesting. Wow, you got a good one. Jessi is great. Jess is great. Say hi to her. She's amazing. Yeah, I will.

I'm excited about that. She's so smart. She just basically, you know, bitch slaps Judge whatever the five, whatever her name is. Judge. No, I turned on. I remember I turned on the TV a few weeks ago and I saw this woman making all sorts of sense. And then I looked down and it was a Fox logo and my mind literally slipped and broke a hip. I'm like, what show is this? She's great. I'm excited you're going there. Say hi to Bill. Say hi. He's probably mad at me because I'm not very nice to him.

He likes you. They all like you. I doubt it. Anyway, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Please read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Travis Larchuk. Ernie Andertott engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Milsa Vario, and Gadim McBain.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. I'll see you in our nation's capital.