Pivot - Tesla’s “Battery Day”, the DOJ prepares for Google, and Scott’s prediction on “algorithmic e-commerce”

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about Tesla's "Battery Day" and California Governor Gavin Newsom saying his state with be gas-vehicle free by 2035. They also discuss the DOJ's plan to bring an antitrust lawsuit against Google. Plus Kara and Scott consider how Democrats and Republicans may look at data privacy issues differently after the election. Scott has a prediction about commerce if TikTok and Walmart join forces. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And Cara, this is Europe, and I'm here to beg that Facebook don't leave. We would have missed the job destruction, the weaponization of our elections. Oh, my goodness. The tax avoidance, the photo shoots. I'm a mix of Indian and Scottish, although Indians are European. Anyway, just go with it.

Just go with it. No, I'm not going with it. We'd miss the photo shoots to whitewash Sheryl Sandberg's reputation. So please, Facebook, take our eyes, but don't leave us. Don't leave us. Explain what you're saying. Explain why you're doing this. Facebook, I love big tech.

Big tech is literally like Lyle Lovett telling Julia Roberts that he's going to leave her. And it's like, no, you're not. I'm Julia Roberts. Lyle Lovett is not leaving, although they did get divorced, which is tragic. Yes. It's tragic. All right. We've forgotten about that marriage.

They're saying if they implement some of their data privacy regulations that Facebook is going to leave an economy or uproot their business in an economy that's bigger than the United States. You know what it reminds me of? What? I love big tech in there. I'm going to take my ball and go home bullshit. Yeah. Remember when Amazon came into New York and said, all right, despite the fact we want to build facilities in the borough that has the greatest concentration of union membership in the nation, we're not going to allow union members into our factory.

Right, right. And we want $2 billion transferred from local municipal fire police and school districts into the coffers of Amazon as we've gamified the entire Commonwealth. And then Senator Gianaris, AOC, and Corey Johnson said, well, let me think about this. Fuck you, Amazon. And Ann said no to the $2 billion. And what do you know? Amazon is on pace to hire more people than they initially promised in exchange for that $2 billion. Why?

Because the mother of all midlife crises is unfolding two to three days a week on the Upper East Side. Jeff Bezos was always coming to D.C. And then, oh, the second big, I'm leaving. They're not leaving Europe. I'm going to stop you. They're not leaving Europe. Yeah, that's my point. All right, okay. Okay, hold on, hold on. I'm on a run here. All right, so they're not leaving Europe. I'm going to stop you. They're not leaving Europe. Yeah, that's my point. All right, okay.

Okay, hold on, hold on. I'm on a run here. All right, finish. Land the plane, Scott Galloway. The latest one, Dara Khosrowshahi saying, well, if you don't, okay, so maybe AB5 is the law of the land. Maybe the courts have upheld it. But if you actually try and enforce the law, we're going to shut down Uber in the midst of a pandemic and throw a quarter of a million vulnerable people onto the street, despite the fact we have about $14 billion on our balance

sheet, because we have to. We have no choice. Did they shut down? Oh, no. And the latest one, Facebook's going to leave Europe. Yeah, right. Do you ever threaten people? I never do. I just kill them. You don't threaten? No, no. I don't threaten. They're just dead. Kara, I don't make threats. I make promises. Oh my God, what are you like? Steven Seagal? You are the Steven Seagal of podcasts is what you are. That's what I've decided.

I used to watch all the Steven Seagal movies until he got really crazy, but I still like them. I watched one the other day. He was a misunderstood artist. He was in a great movie with Tommy Lee Jones. I can't remember. They were on a ship. It was fantastic. It was like overacting. Anyway, listen, we have a lot to talk about. Facebook also took down fake pages pushing information about the U.S. election from China, which showed that there is, you know, publicly disclosed instance of Chinese interference, but it was not as widespread,

of course, as the Russian interference, which sort of went to the argument the Trump administration was using that the Chinese are there, you know, as the counter to the Russians who helped the Trump administration. So that was interesting. That was interesting that they're revealing. They also, Nick Clegg, the head of Facebook comms and policy, said that they had like an emergency pull button if something happened with the election. I'm assuming what he's referring to Trump saying he won't step down. Emergency pull button. Something like that. He was like, he had an

emergency. Is that like his safe word when he's having that crazy kind of sex? There's a content thing if things go awry. They have a plan. They have a plan to save our planet. I'm just saying, he said in an interview. I feel so much better. With FT, I think it was. So, Facebook will save us, Scott. Yeah. Save us. The other thing that was interesting this week was, we're going to talk about Battery Day and Gavin Newsom's announcement about banning gas vehicles. But Microsoft, fresh from its defeat in doing the TikTok deal, is buying a video game company, ZeniMax Media, for $7.5 billion,

which is a lot of money, just weeks before the Sony releases its new video game consoles. So Microsoft's really doubling down in gaming, which they're already strong in, which I thought was interesting. So they are willing to buy things, just not TikTok, I guess. But they couldn't. And the thing that popped out to me is that they're just buttressing their subscription video game platform

and moving to, I mean, think about, to a certain extent, video games, which is just an outstanding, it's probably the strongest industry that we don't talk about that much. They moved from consoles kind of to the cloud or streaming, and they moved from buying, you know, those games at Best Buy to subscription. And the industry is really well run. subscription. And the industry is really well run. It's about, I think it's something like 15 times the size of the domestic, of basically the domestic film theater business. I mean, it's an enormous business. It's very much owned by China, by the way, along with the porn industry, apparently. Really? China, apparently, yes. There's a lot of, a lot of these games like Epic and some other ones. He looked down the list of owners. There's a lot of Chinese investment in this area.

And again, also someone pointed out to me in the porn industry when I was talking about Grindr being for-sold to a U.S. company. Interesting. It's an interesting, yeah, it's a great business. You're right. We ignore it. We had a reporter who covered it at, when I did All Things D,

and it just didn't pick up the story. People didn't read the stories as much, but I agree. It's a big industry that gets much ignored, and we don't talk about it. story. People didn't read the stories as much, but I agree. It's a big industry that gets much ignored, and we don't talk about it. We're not experts on it. But it's important that they add to their rundle, which I think is video games. There's not someone who's really consolidated.

I guess Amazon and Google have tried, but Microsoft really has quietly done a very good job in this sector. Okay, we're going to go on to big stories. Let's talk about Battery Day, which is Tesla's day to talk about batteries. They did not release a battery. And at the same time, Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, who I have an interview with this morning, a very long one and a substantive one about climate change and also this new executive order to ban. That sounds like a page turner.

I'm just telling you it is. That sounds like a page turner. You know what? Jealousy. I'm sorry. Pretty hard to sell that as compelling. Let me tell you, it's compelling. Unless he's doing, unless you use video and he doesn't have a shirt on, I am not tuning in.

All right. Okay. Listen to me. You should listen to it because it's important. That guy's a tall drink of lemonade. He's not a governor. He's a tall drink of lemonade. He's not a governor. He's a tall drink of lemonade. All right.

You know what? He was substantively talking about banning gas cars. So gas power cars. Whatever. He was married to Kimberly Gafoor. You can't take him that seriously. You are literally just – you are the America. You are America.

That's what you are. This is America. Oh, go on. I like that. Tesla held this long-awaited battery. And Elon Musk shared some bold visions for the company. He unveiled a roadmap for the company called Better, Cheaper, and More Efficient Batteries to set lower electric car prices. They announced a future $25,000 fully autonomous car within three years.

They had promised this before, I think. But following the announcement, Tesla's stock sunk more than 8% because he didn't roll out a battery. So talk about these twin things going on in California. It was a pretty cool event. He had all the Tesla cars there, and they were honking at him. It was pretty surreal and funny. So what do you think? This has had a huge run-up.

Tesla's had a huge run-up. But this is the most important part of the equation of electric cars, is these batteries and the reforms. And we go into the technology of it, but let's not. Why do you think investors responded this way? Was it because they were waiting for it or what? Well, I get Tesla stock. I mean, I've been very good at predicting predictions around Tesla stock.

I don't know if you remember, but a year and a half ago, I said that Tesla was at 323 and I said it was going to go down. And now it's at 370, so it really hasn't moved much. Oh, wait, it's split five for one. It's split five for one. So Tesla's stock is up four. You like to revisit your defeats, don't you? Thank you, Napoleon.

The key isn't to be right. The key is to catalyze a conversation. And I catalyzed a lot of conversations with that prediction. Let me just say, this particular Waterloo for you is fascinating. But what do you think about this? He's trying to focus in on this issue, and I think it's an important issue. He just didn't have the battery itself. Yeah, so look, battery, first off, everyone's struggling for a reason why the stock went down.

Everyone's looking for a reason to take the stock down because it's just crazy town right now. And it doesn't need a lot of reason to deflate a little bit. It really doesn't say much. and to deflate a little bit. It really doesn't say much. What's interesting about this is that, you know, batteries, battery technology and essentially the scale around battery manufacturing is really exciting because it's bringing the cost down dramatically. Batteries have come down from about, I think it's like $1,200 per kilowatt to $150.

Basically every three years the price gets cut in half. And as batteries become less expensive and then you add on top of that the savings, not only the economic savings from not having to put gas in your car, but the psychological savings of never having to go to the worst retail or the second worst retail in the world, and that's a gas station. Really? I don't mind gas stations. Oh, gas. That is definitely where you're going to get shot by a shotgun or something. That is like where you get thrown in a van and we never hear from you again. Oh, that was ugly. Sorry, I didn't mean that. Anyways, gas stations are, I think the gas station is the most

dangerous place. It's a weird thing you have to do. Yes. It's weird. Think about the, it's awful. Think about the merchandising. Yeah. Think about the smell. It's just a weird place. Anyways, anyways, not having to go to a gas station is something I don't miss, but as they get scale here and as they, and as the costs continue to come down, you could, for the first time, what it felt like when you started to pencil out the numbers that electric cars might be economically advantageous in addition to the technologically and environmentally advantageous. So, I thought it was actually pretty interesting.

I think he's jealous. I think they're all jealous of each other, and he's jealous of Amazon Prime Day, so he decided to have a battery day. You're right. They didn't announce a hell of a lot, but what was the learning? What was the learning? The learning or the thing that struck me about this day is that there has been a dramatic shift in the automobile industry and the manufacturing industry in general. And that is any company that is trying to create an aspirational brand or create differentiation through product by unlocking with different digital technologies is going increasingly vertical. And after an

unbundling and outsourcing, the auto industry were effectively automobile manufacturers, were really not manufacturers as much as they were assemblers. And the most talented people in the industry were people who understood not supply chain as much as the ability to take 3,800 different parts and get them to one area and assemble something and then roll it off the line. Tesla and a lot of manufacturers are going increasingly vertical, and that is they're producing and manufacturing their own products. And producing and manufacturing your own battery instead of Panasonic is another example of verticalization.

And none of this company going vertical around its batteries. They've actually purchased the mineral rights. Yeah, that's what's interesting, yeah. To some area in Nevada so they can mine their own lithium. So, the verticalization of corporate American businesses is such a U-turn from where we all thought we were going in the 70s and 80s. He said he's going to continue to buy batteries from, I think it's Panasonic. And I think if you look at the statistics in Japan, I know, but he is. No, he announced it. Just long enough, just until he has his own.

Why would he? This is a critical part of his thing. I mean, what's interesting is, you know, if you look at who's ahead in – by the way, the U.S. government's inability to be investing here is crazy because it's the future. But Japan, China, there's all these countries ahead of the U.S. in terms of battery development. So I think it's a really promising area. And whoever moves into this area in a strong way,

and it could be Elon because he's been obsessed with batteries, I can tell you for a while, he's talking about batteries to me constantly. That's what he discusses often. And what's interesting about that is that can he do as much manufacturing of key elements and the key cost, which is the batteries, as possible? And can he then innovate on batteries? Can he take out? There were some things he was, again, I'm not going to speak to it because I read up on it. I could speak to it from notes.

But making the batteries more efficient is really the goal here and cheaper. And so I would think he would want to do this. Now, again, he didn't show off a battery and he did promise these cars would be cheaper. So what I think Elon tends to do is he makes a promise to people, which people think, oh, that's just a lie because he didn't do it. But I think it's a promise to himself.

Like he wants to put himself on record so he can be not attacked. It's not really, that's not really, I think he just does it because he wants to, he thinks it out loud and he says it out loud. And some people see that as a sort of a P.T. Barnum kind of thing. And sometimes it is, but I think in this case, he's quite committed to this technology.

And I think that's really, and it's also important and existential for his company, you know, in real terms. You know, if you want to get to, if you want to backfill the valuation they have. And so I thought, I like that he was focusing on this, even though it's, I like that he was focusing on this topic. I like that he called it Battery Day. He tried to make it interesting.

Same thing with Gavin Newsom. You can go on about his looks, which are quite substantive. But he's like, in announcing this, he's laying a mark in the sand, just like he did with gay marriage. And everyone at the time that he did, this is very akin to what he did with gay marriage. He said it, he did it, it was illegal when he did it, it fought its all the way, and he lost a lot of political capital at the time, he really did. looking at a court that could push back some of these rights, probably not marriage. But at the time, no one, everyone thought it was a crazy thing to say and do. And the same thing with the cars. You've got to at some point say, this is the way we're going and this is what we're

aiming for. And so you change the discussion. And so I do admire when people do things like that. That's my feeling on a lot of this stuff. The goals are important. And the best way to predict the future is to make it. And I think it was the World Health Organization said we're going to cut abject poverty in half in 20 years, and it took them 10 years. But goals and metrics are important. I mean, I think at some point, Jerry Brown or Edmund Brown, the governor of California, said we're going to reduce emissions by a certain amount by a certain date. And I grew up in Los Angeles, and I remember going to the beach, taking the RTD bus down to the beach and going to, you know, Lifeguard Station 19. And by the time I got home, I had trouble breathing.

Right. And now the air in Los Angeles, or at least my understanding is, is cleaner. And, of course, the Trump administration is fighting the emission standards in California. Yeah, they're trying to get around that. But what's interesting is Newsom, you know, I think car companies see this. They actually went along, a lot of them, many of them publicly, some of them privately. They're not sitting a rate for the government to do this. They know around the world they're being pressed on emission standards.

And so they're just going to go there. Why not just go where the business is going? Same thing with this. Now, everyone was like, oh, car companies are going to fight it. No, they're not. This is the future. Like, why would you hold on to a technology which is gas and fossil fuels when it's so clear what Elon's doing, what others are doing? And if you're the governor of California, why not say this is where we're going to do it,

and this is where you should locate your company, and this is where... It has so many follow-on ideas that if you don't state this goal, and even though a lot of people think it's not enough because European countries have said in 10 years, not by, not the, or less than his, you know, in a timeline. And so I just, it just puts a mark in the sand that says this. And he did, he had to do it by executive order. And the other thing he did was fracking, which he wants the legislature to work on. But I don't know. I feel like if you don't start talking about these things, it's so easy for the press to say PR. I remember the gay marriage thing and everybody saying this is PR and this is this.

And it was actually started the whole thing. Well, it changed people's lives, right? Yeah, but it was illegal. And then it was pushed back. And having been in the middle of it, it was illegal. You did it, and then it was – I literally – I got married, and then I got a letter from the – after Prop 8 – not Prop 8 – after the Supreme Court. There was all kinds of legal wrangling, but I got a letter saying, oh, your fee has been returned. My marriage was ended by my fee has been returned because it was a fee that you paid.

That's weird. I know, it was weird. But then it went forward and then there was Prop 8 and then you were grandfathered in and then there's Supreme Court. It starts off a rolling pebble to these things. And I think these kind of, the wildfires in California are a perfect backdrop

to we have to do this now. Like stop it. Like, that kind of thing. So, whatever you think about the PR of both these things, I'm all for it. You're on board. I'm on board for this kind of PR. And to be this cynical when the president is talking about not leaving office and saying stupid things about tuna cans and, you know, just come on. This is important stuff.

This is existential for our children. Thank you. That is important stuff. This is existential for our children. Thank you. That's my speech. Well, you said it last week that you quoted RBG, and she said the dissenters become the mainstream if they do it with leadership, with courage, and they don't pour salt on the earth behind them and alienate people. And something I always coach young people around is there's a difference between being right and being effective, and you need to be both. Right. And people just focus on, you know, well, I'm right, so everyone should fall in line behind me. But there's something I'm thinking a lot about, and I think the Biden administration would be well-versed to start a narrative around.

We're all talking about the downside and the mistakes we've made around COVID-19. But what are the opportunities or specifically what are we going to leave behind? And the thing that strikes me, the real opportunity, is let's leave behind 20 to 30 percent of our emissions. And that is if we can figure out a way to give people the ability to work from home, if we can figure out a way to incorporate into the workforce more seamlessly working mothers so they don't have to commute as much? If we can figure out a way to reduce, quite frankly, business travel, could we leave 10, 20, 30 percent of our emissions behind? Because I didn't think it was any accident. I remember going out during the real lockdown, when it actually was a real lockdown, and a couple times in Florida, going outside and thinking, this is the most beautiful day I have ever seen. And I went on, I forget what it was, the National Atmospheric Association.org or whatever, and it showed that Florida emissions or carbon over our atmosphere had gone down substantially. opportunity professionally, personally, from a societal standpoint to sit down and say,

okay, this is an opportunity. I've shaken the etch-a-sketch. What are the lines? Do I need to draw back the lines the same way they were? What are we going to leave behind here? What goes away? Well, I think it's true. I think it's, do you remember the movie, I'm blanking, the Jake Gyllenhaal movie? I always talk about it because I thought it had such an impact on me, even though it was such a corny movie. Brokeback Mountain? I liked it. No, no, no. The one where he— Oh, wait. Where the climate—like, he's in the thing in New York with Emmy Ross and his father, Dennis Quaid, comes to look for him. I'm totally blanking. Oh, about the extreme weather.

Extreme weather. And at the end, the—I don't know why it got me. The astronauts are up in space, and they're safe from the whole global whatever, everything that happened. There was a freezing of most half of the world, essentially. And he looked down, and he said, it's never been clearer. You know what I mean?

And I think that was because nobody was doing anything, and the world had been cleaned up again. And so there is something to the idea of not moving or finding technological ways to work at home, of consuming less. And I think one of the things in the interview with Gavin, which is substantive and you should listen to it. You're not going to listen to any of them, but that's all right. I talk about you during the whole time, so maybe I'll tell you that. Well, I'll have to tune in all the time now.

But what I think was substantive about it is we've done a lot on the demand side. Now, we have to do a lot on the demand side. We have to do a ton more on the demand side. And even though they've done a lot on emissions, they've done a lot on whatever they do with batteries or car selling, they have to do it on the demand side. And that's where they, whether it's agriculture, whether it's anything else. And he's going to get, there was already a trending among the conservatives, hashtag recall Gavin. And I said, what do you think about that? He goes, we have 55 lawsuits with the federal government right now. And this is the 20th time

they've tried to recall me. So good frigging luck. Anyway. All right, Scott, we're going to do a quick break. We're going to talk about DOJ's antitrust case against Google and a listener mail Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter.

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To learn more, visit anthropic.com slash clawed. That's anthropic.com slash clawed. slash Claude. That's anthropic.com slash Claude. Okay, Scott, we're back. Google, the Department of Justice, is outlining to state officials its antitrust inquiry on Google, expected to focus on search, which is what a shock. It's one of the final steps for filing the landmark case against the company. The case is expected to focus on Google's search business and whether the company's used its dominant search position to block rivals and harm consumers. This would be the first major action against big tech companies in forever, really. I mean, since for a long time, if you count AT&T and others. So this is a long time

coming. And I went through my archives this week and I found literally a 2008 article where I talked about this. Like, why aren't why isn't the FTC acting here with these when Google was trying to take over Yahoo search, for example? What do you what do you think about this? Do you think it's a win for the Trump administration? A lot of those prosecutors don't want it to go forward so quickly because they feel like they don't have enough of a case. But there's a lot of hubbub inside the Department of Justice. What do you think? I do think it's a win for the Trump administration because we've been talking about this a while.

When one organization controls 93% of all searches, controls 93% of a $150 billion industry called search, yeah, it's clear that this requires more scrutiny. And the lawyers around the DOJ were somewhat recalcitrant. And I don't think it was they said there's no merit here. They said we need more time to bulk up and get in shape for this because you know that Google's going to throw about 7 billion lawyers at this. And so I do think it's actually a win for the administration. I also think that focusing in on search dominance as opposed to like the EU is looking at Fitbit and their antitrust probe of Google. I think you focus on, you know, you just focus on what's going, you focus on the key here. Search. And it's search. And 93%.

Although I do think, you know what, I think it's a little bit of a wrench in the FTC or the DOJ's plan. I think Apple, going back to this notion of vertical, I think Apple's going to launch a fairly competent search engine and they're going to start blocking. You keep saying this. Well, I just think it makes a lot of sense. Anyways, my point, I think it is a win for the administration. I think it's too bad the DOJ doesn't have more resources.

I hope they get increased funding. I think some of the brightest legal minds in the world are at the DOJ. Yep. But, yeah, it's an October surprise. I think they have somewhere in the Trump administration there's a list of a dozen or two dozen things that are like we're going to announce these things, whether we do them or not, whether they make any sense. We're going to announce these things before November 3rd. And this is one of them. But I think this is one of those things that will continue

even if Trump is booted from office. What do you think? I think I have to give credit. I mean, here's the thing. Here's why I'm worried about these prosecutors pulling out. Because I do think prosecutors can be a little too cautious. And I was looking at that book by the Mueller guy who was number two to him, and they were too cautious. They were just too – they're always too, like, cautious and worried.

And so what I'm worried is that they're not prepared to fight Google. And so worry when I see or hear noise of people within the Justice Department thinking we don't have the case yet, we haven't got it yet. Sometimes they can be over we haven't got it yet. Sometimes they can be over, we haven't got it yet. You know, we all know what the problem is, and we've known it for a decade. And I think the failure of the Obama administration to act in any of these areas over all this time is just a real knock on them. I talked about it with Gene Sperling and some others before. But I do think they need to take action. I think they're doing it politically, which is, I wish they would have done it before and really prepared it and really put the resources into it.

Same thing with the FTC. If they really cared, they would have funded the FTC properly. If they really cared, they would have really talked about this instead of talking about tuna cans, like, you know what I mean? Or whatever ridiculous bullshit they talk about. And so, just like the executive order around 230, just like this TikTok thing, it could be another debacle and they then miss the shot at big tech. They're missing the shot at China right now. They missed the shot at executive 230. And if they miss this shot, because they're incompetent, and by the way, they're incompetent, that's really the problem. If they don't have the buy-in from those real career Justice Department officials,

because Bill Barr has decided to become this strange henchman of Donald Trump, that's my problem with them. So I like that they're doing it. I just want them to do it well so that it doesn't fail. And so we'll see. And I think, what do you think Google is doing right now? I mean, they had to have seen this coming for, what, a decade? Google is lining up. They're testing their armaments in Spain. They're I mean, they had to have seen this coming for, what, a decade? Google is lining up.

They're testing their armaments in Spain. They're fine-tuning their Messerschmitts, their Panzer tanks. They are lining up so many resources at the border. The scariest thing about this, to your point, is the DOJ, the initial brief that they're going to file supposedly has 40 lawyers on it. That is nothing. That is literally pissing in the ocean of this battle. And many have left.

And if they don't do it well, if they don't get momentum behind this, they risk the state AGs not joining in. The other thing is, people aren't really mad at Google or Amazon.

That's going to be one of the biggest things. People like these companies, right? They sort of have a, they have a, they don't like Facebook so much and they have a vague sense

that there's problems around tech. But they haven't built the case that why we should hate. I mean, I think one of the things Microsoft was well disliked when they took on that case, it was, you know, including by the industry, they'll have to have compelling testimony by the Yelps and the whatever, the Fitbits or whoever it is. And so that's, they've got to build a PR case out here. And when it's coming at you from Bill Barr, anything that guy says, I'm like lying, lying, lying. And so that's one of the things. I don't even want to look forward to his press conference

because I'll just be like, I just can't look at him. So that's one of their big issues. And they're so well-liked, these companies. And I think I wouldn't discount that. I would push back on that. I think there's a general unease around big tech. And you have a coalition of— By normal, by the normals, not by you and me.

By the normals. I do think that people have an uneasy feeling about income inequality and can't exactly connect the dots, but do have a feeling that big tech's dominance is not a good thing for America. And you've seen all 50 states support antitrust action and have formed a coalition against Google. And that's Mississippi to Oregon. Everybody's like, yeah, this is too much. Well, they could also be saying, like, here's the honeypot. Like, come on, they're not necessarily.

You think it's money. I do. I just think it's going to be a much more difficult thing. And I'm worried that this administration is incompetent to the task, even if they're doing it. And they've proven to be so sloppy everywhere else, sloppy and political. And so both those things together. think Apple might. Even though they've publicly been sort of insulting the Epic Games, Tim Sweeney and that company, they've been pretty aggressive pushing back. I think some company like Apple is going to be like, all right, here's what we'll do. Throw us in the briar patch kind of thing. Yes, please. And I think that's the smarter move here. I'm not sure what Google can do except fight it, right? And make them prove their

case. That's, I think they could- Oh, they'll throw everything they have at this. That's what I mean. I think if I was Google, I would be a little bit like, no, no. Oh, they've already said no. They haven't said no. They've said nine. I mean, they are coming for these guys. Like, are you kidding? I would hate to go up against Google. And everybody, when I met with Senator- Sundar seems so nice. When I met with Senator, they all seem nice. That's the point. No, they don't.

When I met with Senator Warner, you got to go after. Tell me about your meetings with the people. You go up there a lot. You're always with those guys. Well, they get it. These guys get it. I actually always feel better about our country when I meet with our elected representatives. But Senator Warner, I was with his two top legislative aides and they said,

well, what would you do? And I'm like, you got to have to go anti-competitive identity, section 230. And you could just see the aides just like lowered their head and they're like, we're outgunned to try and take on these things. We have, you know, we would just, if we even breathe that way, we're picking, we're poking a bear the size of Godzilla. And that's the problem, is that a key step to tyranny is when government no longer becomes a countervailing force, but a co-conspirator. Yeah. A co-conspirator. And we talk about this unholy alliance between, or this unwritten agreement between the Zuck and Trump, where Zuck is basically saying, okay, don't break us up, don't fuck with us,

and I'll continue to weaponize the platform, let you weaponize the platform. You know what was a really unholy alliance from about, I don't know, 2008 to 2016? The alliance between Obama and Google. I agree. And we as liberals don't like to talk about it, but the reality is- I do.

Hello. Other than Kara Swisher, other than Kay Swish. I have, with Eric Schmidt and everything else, it was ridiculous. By the way, who's interviewing Eric Schmidt for his podcast this week? Who, you? Oh, he's all over the place. That's interesting. Yeah, he's out there. What is he talking to you about? If he's on my pod, it means he's selling something pretty hard.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't know what we're talking about. He literally, he or his people reached out and said, we'd like to come on your pod. So, I'm just, but from 2008 to 2016, I think, and we don't like to admit this, but there was a very strong relationship between the Obama campaign and Google. And my sense is Obama told his DOJ kind of, you know, back off of Google because this has blown by any reasonable litmus test or antitrust investigation. This should have happened a decade ago. And now this will be a key test.

Have we been overrun? Your point is that we need to do it well because we only get one bite at the apple here. Don't screw this up. The good news is it's not going to take very, I mean, there's just not that much time between, it's unlikely they can foul the waters in 30 days, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. This is going to go on. It's a question of whether the Biden administration has, if it wins, or the Trump administration has the wherewithal. They'll just drop it. That's my feeling. They're just going to drop it and we're going to be in the exact same. I have a question for you. Senator Harris, is she, do you see her- Complex. Complex, my friend. Her relationship with big tech, do you see her coming in and being an apologist for big tech because she's

taken money there or that she'll go after them? What do you think is going to happen there? She has gone after them in a minor way, I would say. And she's also been friendly with them. You know what I mean? She knows them all. I wouldn't say friends, but she's friendly with them. And you would be. You're a center from California. You're going to be friendly with the tech industry. She never goes for the jugular. She goes for jugulars, and she doesn't go for the jugular here. She goes around the edges, which are important. The privacy stuff's important. But she doesn't go for the, this is terrible kind of stuff.

Although she tried during one of the debates around Twitter, if you remember, and it didn't land. Like, we have to stop Twitter. There was a thing where she... I don't remember that. She did that. She went, like, about we have to do this. And it just didn't, nobody cared.

And that's the other thing is, it just doesn't, you know what polls well? Healthcare. You know what polls well? Saying you're going to overturn abortion rights. What Nancy Pelosi actually did point out to me, and I hadn't thought about this, although it's kind of basic, was the Trump administration had the Senate

and the House for two years and they didn't do any abortion legislation, right? Like, why not? She goes, when they had power, they did nothing. It's all for the base. It's all noise. It's all like— They're not—my sense is Republicans aren't really—

at least I've always felt like— They just want to use it to get everyone all exercised and then leave it to the courts. That's right. But they don't want to be the ones that actually make it difficult for your daughter or to actually get, you know, have family planning. So I think Kamala Harris will not be, she does stuff around the edges and I don't know what would prompt her to do anything else. I, you know, I don't know. I don't know what, you have to be prompted, right?

So, and it's not her nature. She's very canny strategically, you know, so it just doesn't, what does it get her? I can see, I think everything that she does is't, what does it get her? I can see, I think everything that she does is that, what does it get her? And so we'll see, we'll see. Um, but we'll,

but Google will surely fight back hard. And who's going to be last one. Who's going to be the next one. Who's going to get, uh, it's gotta be Amazon, Facebook. They'll never touch.

Well, maybe the Biden administration will, will do that, but not anybody else. I think it's, I actually do think it's Facebook. because I think there'll be more political wind or support. And I think Amazon is a tough one, because the consumer harm is much more difficult to

prove there. And they have a very, if you look at their respective industries, whether it's the cloud, whether it's retail, they don't have the same type of market share that these other firms to make an easier market. Right. And the one that'll go last, it'll be regulation, but it won't be antitrust, will be Apple. But that's a rational argument, and I have not seen rational constructs

be injected into any of this so far. Yeah, I think big tech once again slides away. Slides away. Yeah. I do think some of the emails of both Google and especially Facebook, just even the ones that David Cicilline put out, were like, oh, that's uncomfortable. Give us an example.

What are the kinds of things? You know, land grab, we're going to neutralize people, like the idea that they're trying to take out competitors. I think that's, he was starting to go in the direction I go. It's like, look what they're doing to American innovation. Look what they're doing to small companies. That's the case you make. And he was starting to release those.

And we'll see, you know, small businesses can't, that's like, that's a winning argument versus these people. These big, they're the richest people in the world. Jeff Bezos has $200 million. That's, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is ruining democracy. That's the way you go. And I think it takes a lot of guts for someone to do that. We'll see. I thought Representative Cicilline oversaw the chair of the best hearing we've had in a long time. He just needs to stop lying. He's a total

Joey from Ronkonkoma, Long Island. That guy's not from Maryland or wherever he says he's from. Is that guy Long Island or what? I don't know. That guy's like the really smart guy on Long Island. Everyone's from somewhere else, Scott. Where are you from? Oh, come on. Amy Klobuchar from Minnesota? Give me a break. Yeah, she's from Minnesota.

No, she's not. Where is she from? She's super real estate broker Joan from Atlanta. She's the best real estate broker in Buckhead. Where are you from? Where do you call from, as my people from West Virginia would say? Where do you call from?

I don't know. I haven't really thought about that. My people come from West Virginia, my people, and from Italy. That's not where I would have gone, West Virginia. Well, I can't help it. That's where my dad was born. My family is there. My dad's side of the family, I don't see them as much. Where in West Virginia, Kara? Morgantown, and then the hills and hollers. I'll tell you, I met a couple of cousins up in there. Morgantown. Yeah, Morgantown, then the Hills and Hollers. I'll tell you, I met a couple of cousins up in there. Morgantown. Yeah, Morgantown, West Virginia.

That's the fancy town of West Virginia. They made a stranger face when they met you, Kara. They're like, who the fuck is this? Yeah, they did. That's where I had my famous... She writes about Google. No, that was right. We had some cousin fest a while back. And it was during the...

It was the first Trump thing and they had all been Trumpies and they were like, Kara, you sure did. Our candidate won. We're winning. This and that. We won. This and that. And I said, you know what? Let me just review it for you. I said, I make 4,000 times more

than you guys do. I'm going to benefit from this from a financial point of view and you're going to get screwed because that's the way it's going to happen. And so you guys do. I'm going to benefit from this from a financial point of view and you're going to get screwed because that's the way it's going to happen. And so you really won. Good luck. I find that people

from West Virginia respond really well to their cousins coming down. Yeah, I'm a city cousin. Their lesbian cousins coming down from New York and talking about how much more money

they make than them. I find that that's just a way to warm yourself to their hearts. There's nothing like a sore winner. I just didn't like a sore winner. And I was like, you're the sore winner. I'm so much more money than you. You're the sore winner. I was only pointing out that they were not exploring the entire situation. And I, of course, would be happy to pay more taxes in that regard. Anyway, okay. You should absolutely begin every email with sick of all this winning question mark, love from DC. Sick

of all this winning. I have some lovely relationships there. Anyway, let's go of all this winning, question mark. Love from DC. Sick of all this winning. I have some lovely relationships there. Anyway, let's go on to a listener mail question. You've got, you've got. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hey, Karen Scott. This is Rebecca, your producer.

I'm coming to you from my studio apartment in Brooklyn, where I've been producing Pivot since March. With the Supreme Court top of mind, what issues in tech and data privacy do we expect to see coming up to the bench? Do you expect a conservative-leaning court to deal with those issues differently? And if the Democrats do take the Senate in November, how will that affect Silicon Valley? By the way, if you're a listener and working in tech and want to flag an issue that you think is underreported, email us at pivot at voxmedia.com. Thanks, guys. I think if the

Democrats take the Senate in November, I think they'll be tougher on Silicon Valley. I don't know if it'll be effective. I mean, in this interview with Nancy Pelosi, she called Facebook disreputable. She said they were going to take action. I don't know. She has to have power to do so. So we'll see. It depends if they, we'll see. I don't know. She has to have power to do so. So we'll see. It depends if they, we'll see. I don't know. There's nothing really coming down the pipe except privacy legislation, antitrust, fines, stronger FTC with the courts. I don't think there's any cases that I'm aware of that are coming up from below. I think it'll be all cultural cases, culture and society cases. I don't know, Scott, what do you think? Yeah, I don't, I'm not a judicial scholar. Actually, I'm not a scholar

on anything, but I think this happens most likely, and I've been saying this for a while, from the state AGs, specifically California and New York, and also from Europe. Yeah. But I'm hopeful. And obviously, I think a democratic administration would be, I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head. To pick your issues across Trump is a little bit of a, you know, a kabuki dance because they're just so incompetent. Right. And they have, I think, you know, the trade war made a lot of sense, at least from an intention standpoint or reasons behind it. But it was just so, it's been so poorly executed. I actually think that banning TikTok,

if you had decided to ban over time all Chinese internet companies, I think there was legitimacy around that concern. There was risk, you know, legitimate risk concerns. But they've just been so bad at this. You know, the boring stuff is what changes America. The number of judicial, the number of judges at every level that have been appointed over the last four years have probably been the most damaging thing if you're a progressive over the long term. Yes. But when you think about it, he's been talking about, I mean, my favorite, we're overturning Obamacare and we have a new health care plan.

There's no health care plan anywhere. I mean, they don't have, health care is really hard and requires smart people to do smart work. And that's just not the hard work the Trump administration wants to do right now. And just, I don't have – health care is really hard and requires smart people to do smart work. And that's just not the hard work the Trump administration wants to do right now. And just – I don't know. I don't feel – it's so hard for us to imagine a Trump – you know, we have such PTSD or whatever you call it or Trump syndrome. I just – it's hard for me to even envision what might happen if Trump is reelected. But the only thing that – Protests for four years.

elected, but the only thing that... Protests for four years. Well, to a certain extent, the Trump, I don't want to say the saving grace, but one of the things that makes the Trump administration a little less scary is their incompetence on certain things, because they don't make a lot of progress around stuff. A more competent... Well, they do little things that are dangerous. Like Dick Cheney was both scary and very competent. I think Dick Cheney was scarier in some ways than Donald Trump because he was very competent

and smart and elegant and smooth and understand his constituencies. So anyways, what are your thoughts? I think that it's a bipartisan and not nonpartisan, but a bipartisan issue about big tech. I think that's one thing for sure. And so that's where there's a good chance

something can get done and why not? But it's why would you do it? First of all, everyone's got to clean up this country. The economic recovery, there's so much stuff to happen. No one's going to get to it. This is kind of a, it's not a must-do, it's a would-like-to-do. And so that's the issue is there's so many other things to fight about. And just recovery is going to be the first couple of years of whoever,

or else more destruction if it's Donald Trump, I think. The second thing, the only area that I think would be interesting is access to cell phones and encryption. I think that was a really interesting thing. And as Rebecca's pointed out in our notes here, when the Supreme Court ruled on the warrant to access cell phone location data, all the dissenters in the case were Republicans. So they're very, that is, encryption could be an interesting situation. And that, most Republicans tend to lean the Jim Comey way, which was much more hand over your stuff kind of stuff. And so that would be the area. And that's a big, that is a big fight, and that is a big deal. And so I would suspect that would be something that's important.

Otherwise, you know, there's nothing rising up about privacy. There's so many other issues. There's going to be fights about abortion. There's going to be a fight about pushing back gay rights in favor of religious rights. So I think we're going to be spending a lot of time arguing about stuff we argued about in the 1980s still. And big tech is going to sail right out, unfortunately, in a lot of things. It's going to take, as Scott said, regulation and lawmaking, legislating to handle this and not the courts. So there you have it. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. I hope you have a good one. Okay. Reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure.

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Something, something? Sure. So I'm fascinated by, a couple years ago, began talking about and made up a word called rundle. The recurring revenue bundles were going to be this incredibly powerful concept, and that has played out, and it continues to play out. I think there's another concept on the horizon. A new word? Yeah, or a new term. And that is, I am fascinated with TikTok. And I'm trying to think about, in contrast to something like Quibi, A new word? If I watch a one-hour show, well, give me a moment. All right, okay. So signal liquidity, you get about two points of signal or two signals when you watch Netflix. A, you pick that program.

B, you watch it all the way through. And that informs the algorithm or the recommendation engine. Whereas when I spend an hour on TikTok, between likes, comments, the amount of time I watch it, and the fact that they're 15 to 30 seconds in duration, I get somewhere between, or ByteDance gets somewhere between 800 and 1,600 signals within the same hour period, meaning the inputs and the calibration that feed, or the inputs and signals that feed the algorithm give it just such incredible calibration that it can move to exactly what you want much faster than any other media company. So, if you think about e-commerce, e-commerce has an algorithm

that sits on top, including how to get that product faster to you, what else to recommend based on what you put in your basket. Right. There's pretty strong kind of algorithmic e-commerce to date, not really strong. And then algorithmic media has gone crazy, whether it's Netflix or TikTok, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Google. The media companies that have really gone to a trillion dollars have two things. They leverage free content from their consumer base, and sitting on top of it is an incredible algorithm. I think, and by the way, I think there's more than a 50% likelihood this deal never closed, By the way, I think there's more than a 50% likelihood this deal never closed.

But I think the TikTok or the Trojan horse or the sleeping innovation here, the sleeping giant in this deal is Walmart and TikTok. And that is if Walmart can partner with TikTok to figure out a way to gather signal liquidity around specific consumer categories, I would start with grocery. And then feed people images, videos saying, what is the produce? What are the types of meals? What is your weight class economically? Right, right. I get it. And then all of a sudden, they start zeroing in on, okay, we're going to send you three boxes. We're going to set up cold storage outside your house, two boxes of the brands and things we think you want and love.

The third box is empty. Put the stuff back in the box you don't want, which, by the way, has more signals that they can calibrate on. And then use voice. They'd have to partner with a voice, probably Google, because they don't want to compete with Amazon directly, to get more and more signals. And we may move to where I think the world is heading. That's what I call zero-click ordering. Everyone talks about one-click. That's where we're finally getting to the word, zero-click ordering.

That's not my word. Anyways, I think Walmart and TikTok could potentially, potentially introduce this new field that I'm calling ACOM, and that's algorithmic commerce, which is basically zero click. And that is fulfilling and sending you products before you order them. The same way I have to go on Quibi, I have to learn about something, then I have to pick it. No more of that shit. That model doesn't work anymore. Okay. ACOM. This is, I get all the groceries that 90% are accurate. And even some of them, 10 or 20%, I'm surprised and delighted by. I never would have picked on my own because they know- It's a special surprise box. Right. They know before I know it that I'm

really into Labradors, which apparently I am according to TikTok. But I think that the reason that Walmart is taking a 7.5% stake here, people say, well, it's about social commerce. That's a big snooze. Walmart can buy ads on TikTok on their own without owning 7.5%. The real opportunity for Walmart is to leapfrog Amazon and go from one-click commerce to zero commerce in this new field I would call A-com or algorithmic commerce. I like it. I like it. Now, interestingly, you're talking about the deal. I know a little bit. I was going to write a column this week, but I got super busy with this new podcast.

But one of the things is a lot of this, they're worried the people involved in the deal that it's going to come through, especially as Trump keeps weighing in stupidly, like especially around that museum of propaganda. None of them were knowledgeable about that and they the thing they were going to create was a stem thing for underprivileged kids that's what they were trying to do and then trump weighs in on the how to teach real american history which

they were like no that's a weird one i know of course trump keeps doing this so that's the thing and he keeps saying he's he blessed it and this and that and so they're trying to stay quiet so he'll go away, essentially. And they're sort of embarrassed by it, but they won't say that publicly. And so I think, you know, and then there's the whole whether the Chinese will go along with this. And who owns what? And they can pretend which one owns it. But I believe in the way they're doing the watering down and the dilutions, it will have a majority U.S. investors.

And when the Chinese figure that out, they won't let it happen, right? I know ByteDance is saying. That's a head fake. It's about who controls the algorithm. If you look at big tech. That's what I was going to say. One of the problems with the markets is corporate governance is supposed to mimic governance. And that is one person, one vote.

And we bastardize it with redlining and gerrymandering and the electoral college. But generally speaking, the person that gets power, the person who has authority is the person that gets the most individual votes. And corporate governance is supposed to be one share, one vote. But big tech, because everyone was so horny to get these deals done, VCs initially, and it's kind of started with Google, agreed to give Larry and Sergey control of the company, despite the fact they didn't have economic control. So the Sulzbergers, the Ford family, own between 4% and 16% of the company, but control it. That is unhealthy. When you disarticulate accountability and risk from authority, it ends up perverting the decision-making process.

So what we have, again, with big tech is they don't have economic control, but they have control. And the fact that we're getting some cold comfort that by the time we do the math around all the dilution that American companies, including General Atlantic and Sequoia, might own combined 52%, meaning we don't need to worry, that has nothing to fucking do with it. It's whoever's in charge of the algorithm and can influence the programming and the intent behind the humans programming the algorithm. So it has to be Oracle. And that's going to be – yeah, but Oracle just be the cloud. Well, no, they're doing other things to it. They're not incompetent into this task in terms of security, but it's not their area of expertise.

The question is they aren't going to – they're not going to have anything to do with the actual running of the content of the service. They know they don't have the expertise. So that will be left to the company. And therefore, if they're using that algorithm, how can they really, you're right. It's just, it's not who has the most, it's who controls the algorithm.

We've talked about this, who controls the code. And if it continues to be Chinese generated code, that's going to be very difficult to, to differentiate. And I think the, I think the two problems here is one, it's a global, this create this TikTok global.

It's a, it was a global company with so many different owners, you know, including it from Europe and everywhere else, as I said before, that it's really hard to, it's hard to buy it outright. And it's hard to run it like this. And so, that's the problem. Like, that's the problem, ultimately.

And so... TikTok, I've come full, I've gone fox on this. TikTok scares the shit out of me. If people, if Facebook can be weaponized by the Chinese and the Russians because they have a group of American shareholders and management that are more concerned with their economic well-being and the well-being of the Commonwealth, then what on earth would stop TikTok from somebody in China and the party there deciding, you know what, every time the pandemic rages on in the U.S., they cede advantage and geopolitical leverage to us. So let's start putting out a lot of content and let's favor content that begins to raise concerns and insecurity around a vaccine. They could absolutely do that out of China.

And if you think they can't do it, Jesus Christ, look at what Facebook and Google managed to do with very little Chinese promotion. I have a burner phone. I don't trust this. But you're right, the influence part. You know, when we talked to Alex, the three things were access to data, which he wasn't as worried about, possible backdoors, which he's like, look, that could happen on any part of the equation because so much is made in China.

And then was influence. Propaganda machine. Propaganda and influence. And that is really, and the problem is, even though Trump's trying to do this museum of propaganda or this foundation of propaganda, we're not good at it. We're just not good at it the way they are. And we have to understand who we're playing with. And they, as you said, they wait it out and they, and this is the, it goes back to the same thing we're talking about with, with the Google antitrust is they have the ability to wait, wait everyone out. The Chinese have the ability to wait the government out and the government is so twitchy and incompetent in dealing with it. And under this particular administration, everything is for the

press release or a political thing and not it's become political and not policy. That's the issue is it's not policy. And so when you're handing the president of the United States graphs to make him understand with his name on it, you're not going to make good policy. It's just not going to happen. And then the Biden administration is going to spend a lot of time cleaning up if they win. That's what it's going to be about, cleaning up. And I don't know. It's going to be, we are in a situation, we are outmatched in many ways. Yeah, we have. I think we have actually been traditionally very good at propaganda, whether it's dropping leaflets from flying superfortresses over Berlin saying, if you surrender, we're not going to kill you.

We're not weird, and your leader has already killed himself. Right. And the CIA weaponizing newspapers in Latin America. The thing that America is going to have to come to grips with is we're used to bombing other countries. And the idea of a foreign entity actually bombing us seems just so alien that we can't even relate to it. Russia lost the Cold War. They won this one. Because we're used to being, you know, we're used to being the lead dog that we bark and everyone, you know, just quivers.

And for the first time, I think one of the things, the great acceleration that COVID has brought on is that now China is the geopolitical superpower. And we're just not used to being played. We're not used to not being the one to call the shots. We're not used to someone else being better at propaganda. And what's especially insulting, and it's much easier to fool people than convince them they've been fooled. And we are unwilling to acknowledge the insult and the embarrassment that the object of our affection, Facebook, has been weaponized by foreign actors. We just can't wrap our heads around it. It insults our manhood as Americans.

But for the first time, I don't want to say we're getting a taste of our own medicine. And we invented it. That's right. We were the ones that have been traditionally better at it. All right, Scott. This is going in a bad direction. We're going down a rabbit hole. You're right.

You're correct. This is great. I love your ACOM thing. I thought that was fascinating. And I is going in a bad direction. We're going down a rabbit hole. You're right. You're correct. This is great. I love your ACOM thing. I thought that was fascinating. I think that's a smart idea. Another smart idea. Algorithmic commerce, ACOM. From ACOM.

It sounds like the 18. Hashtag registered prop G. Listen to me. You showed up on my Reddit the other day. That was creepy. I did. How'd that go? Good.

How'd that go to ask me anything? Ask Carrie everything. Again, another very exciting. That's hard to sell. That is compelling. Ask me anything as if you haven't heard everything already. You're just jealous of my fantasticness, which is going to continue on. And you're just going to have to live with it.

But let me tell you, I'm going to make a small prediction. So I traded in my Peloton and got a new one, right? Which I got a really good deal on the trade-in. So it was surprisingly, when I did all the math about going to SoulCycle or doing other, or gyms or whatever, it's really, and there's four people who use this thing, and my family, my two sons and Amanda. So it's actually quite, it's not bad. It's not bad from a cost perspective of what we used to spend on gyms, et cetera. Let me just say, no one's catching them. This device, the new one that they did,

is so much better than the last one. Really? So delightful, so beautifully designed. They have a swivel screen. Everything they improved on it, even how you plug it in,

because there was sort of a messy cable thing in the last one. They have improved every aspect of this thing that it's completely delightful. And I just want to say kudos to them and good luck anybody competing with them because I think they know how to do their business, I have to say. So there's a backstory here.

After we essentially said the same thing, you weighed in as the Peloton Uber consumer. And I said that there's just going to be an enormous transition of stakeholder value from the sweat industrial complex to the workout from home trend. The CEO of Equinox reached out to me and said, I appreciate you're a customer of Equinox, but you don't have it right and we need to talk. So anyways, I'm doing a call with the guy who runs Equinox and I'll tell you what he says. Fantastic. Because I got to tell you, I am so delighted with this product. I am not often delighted with products, but I am delighted with this product. It's really, and the things they improved, just love it. I'm a fan.

And I just have to say, I was, products matter. How you make products matter. Anyway. And they're vertical. Again, think about this. Peloton. I have nothing but like for them. I have nothing but like for them.

And of course, I. They assemble, they market, they have their own retail. Do you know someone, I don't know if you did this, but someone in a nice, some nice young attractive person that clearly spends a lot of time on a Peloton bike will come to your house in a Peloton branded van and assemble that? Yeah, they did. The world is going so vertical. It's just so interesting. They absolutely did. It's fascinating.

And it was a good deal. I have to say once you zeroed in, they took away the old one. It was so convenient. Especially given how much more money you make than those hee-haws down in West Virginia you call family. I'm so sorry. What are they riding? Schwinn bikes? What are they riding?

Bikes. What are you riding? You show up in your Peloton. There's no biking going on. You're like, I own two of these. I own two of these. I don't. I own two of these.

There is no Swisher on a bike in West Virginia. I own two of these bad boys. Have you heard of Peloton? I own two. I own two of these. There is no Swisher on a bike in West Virginia. I own two of these bad boys. Have you heard of Peloton? I own two. I own dos. I do not own two. I own one. I traded it in.

I'm economical, Scott. I'm an economical elitist. Are you kidding? I didn't have two. What do you think? I have friends who have two, though. Anyway, before we go, a reminder, we love your questions on this show. Don't make Rebecca work this hard.

Okay. Some things we're interested in you think is make Rebecca work this hard. Yes, okay. Some things we're interested in, do you think is being underreported in tech and business? Send us some lovely listener questions. We love them. We think they're great. Email us at pivot at voxmedia.com. Scott will answer anything.

Ask Scott anything. Have you been invited on Reddit? No, you haven't. Not yet. I didn't ask me anything two years ago. We need another one. We need one together. Oh, my God.

We need one more together. I'm so 2008. You're so 2000 late. You know what? You'll just see. We need another one. We need one together. Oh, my God. We need one together. I'm so 2008. You're so 2000 late. You know what? You'll just see. Oh, that makes me happy. You'll just see. I have some really good interviews coming up on my thing.

You're going to like them a lot. Yeah, there we go. And you should just listen to the Gavin one. It's very substantive. Read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Fernando Finita engineered this episode. Erica Anderson is Pevitz's executive producer.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. If you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Please recommend our show. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, ACOM, algorithmic commerce. That's our thing. Hi to the people of West Virginia.

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