Pivot - The Biggest Moments from Code, the Latest Robinhood Controversy, and the Future of Fitness Apps

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

Kara and Scott discuss the biggest moments from the Code conference, including Kara’s Elon interview that sparked a Musk vs. Bezos rumble. Also: the latest with Robinhood, Citadel and #KenGriffinLied, and a big announcement from The Dawg. Plus, a prediction around fitness and health apps. Keep an eye on the Pivot feed for bonus episodes: full interviews from Code! Send us your Listener Mail questions, via Yappa, at nymag.com/pivot.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Scott Galloway. And I'm Kara Swisher. And Kara is, I hope we are not recording, because Kara is in a robe and holding onto a jar of drugs. It's something out of like a bad 70s porn film. I don't know what's going on there. Yes, here I am in LA being sick, continuing to be sick. Yeah, we got to get you past that. I know, I got a Z-Pack.

I am basking in the glow of your coat. I thought it went off really well. How are you feeling about everything? I'm feeling good. I think it was really good. I thought there were substantive interviews. I think everybody was sort of, I hate to use that phrase, but leaning into it. I thought we did a good job on the COVID protocols, pretty strict.

And I think people were appreciative. But I don't think we were overwhelming at the same time. I think we were respectful and safe. And there was a lot of great stuff. I think all the interviews were great. I don't know what else to say. Everybody was terrific, including you, Scott Calloway. Daddy went out last night.

Daddy went out. Did you? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, you went to Korean barbecue. I did Korean barbecue in a Z-Pack, and I was out. So that was that for me. That's pretty good, too. So, I know it was.

I'm sorry. I didn't move on to the script. Y'all went to the parties and had all kinds of drama. I did nothing. We've got a couple of topics for Banner today, Kara. First up, there's a huge hashtag circulating around Twitter saying Ken Griffin lied. And essentially, there's a, I don't want to call it a conspiracy theory, but a theory that when Robinhood halted trading in certain meme stocks, it was because their biggest client Citadel, who pays for their order flow, which in and among itself is very controversial, had a financial stake in a company or a hedge fund that was getting absolutely killed because they'd gone short GameStop and was basically losing

hundreds of millions. And the theory is that Citadel put pressure on Robinhood to stop the bleeding and stop trading in GameStop. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I actually think that Ken Griffin is too smart to engage in that. I don't like Robinhood for a lot of reasons, but I just think it was a capital call. When you buy a stock, I believe you have to pair it with a seller and there's a certain amount of capital required. And I just don't think they had the capital to cover this. And the reason the hashtag is, is because he told Congress he'd never spoke to him, right? Well, and they're now, and they found phone records that contradict that. At least they never instructed him, right?

They contradict that. I just, it instructed him, right? They contradict that. It'll be very interesting, but I think a guy like Ken Griffin is very good, has a very healthy fear of jail because he doesn't need – he has everything he needs. I always say this guy wouldn't do that. So it'll be interesting to see what comes out. But there is a very strong sentiment now online that they found these phone records, and it contradicts his testimony under oath. And there's all these memes made off on them, but it's going to be interesting to see if and where this goes. Yeah. Well, we'll see.

They're going to need proof. My feeling is they need proof. I mean, I don't like these guys either, but they need proof. Yeah. Well, we'll see. They're going to need proof. My feeling is they need proof. I mean, I don't like these guys either, but they need proof at this point. Moving on to more people with badges. The Federal Privacy Bureau is coming closer to reality. Cara, on Wednesday, the U.S. Senate heard arguments for a privacy bureau that would live inside the FTC. Democrats want $1 billion to fund the new effort. And I think we have a clip.

Here's an exchange between Senator Gary Peters and Morgan Reed, president of the App Association. Some smaller data brokers have suggested that they should be completely exempt from reporting and disclosure requirements, that they're a small business and that it's overly burdensome. that they're a small business and that it's overly burdensome. You've already had the question, should Congress consider FTC exemptions for data brokers? Should we treat them like we do your average small business down the street? No, because they aren't the small business down the street, and they're not the point of inflection, right?

They're not the point at which you, the consumer, engaged with the activity that provided your data. So they're opaque to most users. And so, no, I don't think that they should be exempt completely because they're no different than the local small business or the bike store. I think there should be a privacy bureau. I think it's a great idea. The FTC cannot handle all the things that are happening around data and digital issues. And a separate agency is what's required, even though I'm not a lover of big government.

But it's like stupid at this point. Yeah, it does feel as if, you know, privacy, issues around privacy, they're just getting so complicated and they move at the speed of light. This is another case where regulation and legislation just hasn't kept up with technology and advancement. There's just so many new issues, just as they are creating fairly large panels. There's a lot of academic research around bioethics because there's been an explosion in innovation around certain types of research and medical research and cloning. It doesn't feel as if we have, it just makes sense to be thinking about data, transparency, and privacy, and to have a group charged with applying, looking at these issues in a thoughtful way that has a budget,

looks at it probably mostly through the lens of technology or technology companies. With experts. With experts. Agreed. Agreed. I like it. We're fans. We're fans. We're fans.

I know we hate the idea of creating another agency, but our government is not, even though there's a lot of stone in Washington, it's not set in stone. We have to respond to the regulatory issues of today and to call around, oh, no more big business. I mean, big government.

It's crap. We need it. We need it. Yeah. I just want to bring up what tech stocks have been doing this week. Amazon and NVIDIA were hardest hit, but they all kind of sold off a little bit. I would argue this is barely a sell-off. It's kind of like they've plummeted to the values that they were, I don't know, four, six weeks ago.

It's just the rip-up there has been just so incredible. But they did, and all told, lose about $200 billion. It was pinned on rising yields. So just very basics around the correlation of the relationship between bond yields and stock prices. When bond yields go up, it makes fixed income investments, essentially bonds, more attractive. And the theory is people are less inclined to try and find a return in the stock market, and people just reallocate capital out of the stock market into the debt market.

So as interest rates have just gone to zero slowly but surely over the last 13 years, it's been rocket fuel for the stock market. So anyways, this check back was blamed on increasing yields. I would argue it was just these companies letting out some steam. They've just had such unprecedented climbs. But what we also saw was Bitcoin also went down.

And one of the things that the Bitcoin Taliban that can't have an intelligent conversation around the upsides and the downsides of crypto. Did you just say Bitcoin Taliban? They're going to like that. Well, there's, okay, come at me. But it's Tesla. By the way, Bernie Sanders bros are the same way. And that is their feeling is they are very aggressive. They don't have a dialogue unless you kind of surrender to the narrative,

you're the enemy. But one of the narratives around crypto was always that it was uncorrelated. That one of the most attractive things about it is you are decentralizing and decoupling from the markets, which were either one corrupt or you wanted more diversification so you could find a safe asset that wouldn't be correlated if and when the crash comes. And these, you know, what some people believe are overhyped stocks or overvalued stocks. And the reality is that's just not true. When we had a huge drawdown in stocks at the beginning of the pandemic. Bitcoin plummeted to like, I think it was like 5,000 bucks, believe it or not. And Aswath Damodaran, who's kind of like, I don't know, my hero, spirit animal, I would argue is the best teacher in graduate education.

He has a very interesting theory on this. And that is in the 80s, the big theme in finance departments across the world in academic institutions was the fact that you could get risk-free return from diversification. That if you didn't own two stocks, you owned 10, and the further you diversified them, you managed to hold on to yield and return with lower risk. And diversification became sort of this trifying all over the world in different asset classes, different geographies, different companies. And that meant, well, you think, well, that's a great thing. What it's done, Cara, is it's made everything correlated because everybody owns a little bit of everything. And so when people, when stocks go down and they have margin calls or they need liquidity, everything from an Australian iron ore stock to a bond in Turkey gets hit. And there's no difference here.

And it just did. Just proved that. And so I love this notion that diversification at the end of the day has resulted in greater correlation globally. I find that just fucking fascinating. Fascinating. I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed.

So we'll be talking about such issues on what? Hello. What is your news? You break the news. Break the news, Cara. All right. Break it. The dog is getting a show on CNN Plu.

Plu? Sorry. Plu. It's Canal. Yeah, Canal. It's French. It's going to be in France only. CNN France.

The new show will focus on news and conversations where business and technology collide. You don't have a title. Are you going to tell me what your title is? I'm hoping it'll be No Mercy, No Malice, but I've got to figure out if I can do that. All right. And you're launching in the first quarter of 2022. Yeah. Tell me what this is at CNN Blue.

Other than an enormous mistake by CNN. Yeah. Well, CNN, the final frontier of streaming is news, and I would argue business and politics. And CNN has decided that they need to play in this, and they're making a huge commitment to an O2T network called CNN Plus. I mean, I'm all kidding aside, and I have the tapes to show this. This really is a kind of a bucket list dream come true for me. I love CNN. I love the people there. I love the talent there. Why didn't you start there in the first place? Because they didn't call. Because they didn't ask me, Kara. You have to be asked. But I'm going to be doing a show on the intersection between technology and society and business.

And the wonderful thing about OTT is that if we have 20 minutes of content one week, that's fine. If we have 40 minutes, no commercials. I think they've told me to kind of lean into my irreverence. I've said, have you seen my content? Are you worried at all? Are they ready for you? They claim they're into the crazy. So I really like that. And they've hit the jackpot. Anyway, CNN Plus got a show. Thank you. I think this is a

show and you discovering me and making me an overnight success after working my ass off for 30 years is a big part of the reason I got this show. So thank you. And let's be honest. I'm so glad I turned down their offer. Oh, no, I didn't. I didn't get an offer. Let's be honest. I've outgrown you. I'm Hillary Swank leaving that other, I didn't. I didn't get an offer. Let's be honest. I've outgrown you. I'm Hillary Swank leaving that other guy who didn't get more movies, whatever it is. I've outgrown you. No, you haven't. You'll be back.

Don't you worry. I've outgrown you. I'm McLean Stevenson going on to a big world of movies. This is like a rubber band relationship. I'm Shelley Long. I'm too big for cheers. I should be doing Beverly Hills True. Listen, I want you to behave a little bit. Yeah, exactly. You want me to? Shelley Long. I'm Shelley Long. I want you to think about it. I'm due for cheers. I should be doing... Listen, I want you to behave a little bit. Yeah, exactly. You want me to... I'm Shelly Long.

I'm due for movies. I'm due for much bigger things. Money Pit and Troop Beverly Hills. Ultimately, let me just give you a piece of advice. It's a very good quote that I love. I want you to, like, you should be you. You absolutely should be you. But there's a quote by Dorothy Salisbury Davis. I just looked it up. Don't sell your soul to buy peanuts for the monkeys. Don't sell your soul to buy peanuts for the monkeys.

Hmm. Hmm. You don't have to do antics. You're very smart. You have a lot of insight. I like the antics. You don't think I should? I like your antics.

But I'm saying do things that you want to do, right? Do things that you want to do, not things that are crowd-pleasing. Right. That's what the peanuts are to the monkeys. Two things that you want to do. Don't sell your soul for the peanuts for the monkey man. No. You be you in any way you can.

Just what you're doing should be insightful and bring people knowledge. Daddy with a capital D. D to the A, double D-Y. Hello, D. Good luck. Jeff Zucker, call me if you need advice. Okay? Call me.

Literally, what is the over-under for the second time my show gets canceled before it airs? What's the over-under? 30%? 50%? I have a unique skill to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Thank you for your role in this. Thank you, CNN+. I'm super excited. All right. When we come back, we'll debrief on code

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Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Okay, Kara, time for our big story. Code. We, I mean really you, I just showed up and looked very pretty. I thought I looked nice. You did look good.

Yeah, I thought I looked fashion. You went around and you were like the ambassador. You know what? I really do. I care for you and I wanted this to be successful because we haven't done it in a while. I thought this was an especially important code for you and for us and for Vox. And I overcame the fact I don't like people, and I went around and I tried to meet everybody. I literally tried to meet 400 people.

Yeah, you were like the maitre d'. Anyways, I tried to be the hostess with the mostest. You were excellent. That's right. You did a great job, except for one part, but we won't discuss it later. No, we should discuss that, because I want to evolve as a person. When you were angry at me, or a bunch of people.

You did an interview with Sam Harris, which I think a lot of which was fascinating. And I think I always try to bring in views I don't agree with. Last week, The Lancet, a preeminent medical journal, one of probably the five best medical journals on earth, is now referring not to women, but to bodies with vaginas. Right?

Now, this is, whatever you think about the politics around trans rights, and I'm super liberal on that point, this is where scientific rationality and the English language go to die. But I thought you had a really intelligent conversation until you got to this idea that with trans, this whole obsession with the word woman. Right, when we can't actually use the word woman as a noun in a medical context or in any other context without fearing that there's gonna be a witch burning, based on a kind of activist culture that has been leveraged by social media.

And you have seen that kind of capitulation to dogmatism and bullying, just writ large across our institutions, media, academic, corporate, and it's not being exaggerated. It's often spun even by your co-host on your podcast as being exaggerated. But it is also in reaction to, you know, very troubling trends on the right. And Ina Fried who pushed back at you pretty hard and deservedly. Scott, Ina Fried with Axios.

Maybe it's, you know, I am one of those women who was born without a uterus. So I'm curious, help me understand why it is that in order to deal with these massive issues, climate change, the virus, etc., et cetera, why do we simultaneously have to dehumanize and delegitimize transgender and non-binary folks who are speaking their truth about their identity? I don't understand why those two things are in conflict. This idea that it's inconvenience to, and then call it Wokistan or call it cancel culture or whatever. Yeah, so I just use that word. To be clear, Sam didn't use that word. No, I no i get that he didn't but he does the same thing it's the same idea is that we're so inconvenienced and it's so

unscientific and you know you're making a caricature of his comments that's not it no i get it so i didn't i didn't let me just be clear i i i did not even i know this was an issue. And also, I like that Nina got up and she was visibly upset. And we gave her a lot of time to have a bit of a dialogue with Sam. As I understood it, and I didn't even know this was a thing. I'm so out of touch. Really? Sam was saying that we're at a point now where we're not allowed to even use biological terms or gender terms such as woman or man because people find that offensive.

That we can't even agree on a common vocabulary to try and have thoughtful discussions that advance the rights of different people. His viewpoint was we can't even have a common dialogue, a common vocabulary anymore. I don't think he was saying, oh, don't be ridiculous. You shouldn't be able to use certain words. No, but it's attached to it. This is not the example you need to do. It's attached to a much bigger issue, which is aggrieved white men. I'm just, I'm sorry. It's what it is. And I get that in some cases, it goes too far. We understand that. That's not the issue. But they fixate on certain things where they could be respectful, understand the complexity of it, and not just, hey, you know, look, you can't even say this.

Come on. It reduces a very complex topic. What I didn't get from the conversation, and it's a genuine question, is what is the ask for to stop using the terms woman and man and to use the term born with a vagina, born with a penis? What is the actual issue? What's the ask, if you will? I don't know if there's an ask, but there's a lot of asks. That's not true.

But the idea is to, I get why on, if you do it in a reductive way, you can make your argument that way. But it's not reductive. This is a history. And by the way, it's continuing. As you know, Republican legislatures across the country are aiming. You know, our friend Stephanie Rule. Tremendous. That community is enduring tremendous bullshit, a tremendous discrimination.

And continues to. And this is just so much bullshit on top of it that they just need to do. Why? It's not that here we are indulging. They just lump it in with things. It's not a grab basket of cancel culture. Sometimes the left goes too far. There is no question.

By the way, meanwhile, the right over here is moving into the you know, the left is arguing with itself, while the right is moving in an extraordinarily dangerous way. He did have an interesting point on this. Well, just that I thought it was, and I hadn't realized it. He said the far right is basically, he believes, been mostly excluded. That the far right is mostly seen as crazy and doesn't have that much influence. The far right is mostly seen as crazy and doesn't have that much influence. But the far left has garnered quite a bit of influence. They do get quite a bit of – they're taken very seriously. Culture. He was talking culture.

Yeah. I thought that was really an interesting observation. I hadn't thought about it. Because he said, when you see these people marching at Charlottesville, for the most part, the majority of America lawmakers really do write them off. And we don't – they're not taken seriously. But the president didn't. The president of the United States didn't. He continues to use them.

You mean President Trump? Yes, President Trump. Not President Biden. Of course not. He continues to use them for his political advantage and to scare people. And so this is not – this is a new, fresh time that requires people to not be so inconvenienced. On all sides, by the way, FYI, because what's happening is these extremist parts of our society are pressuring us to disagree. And it's just, I don't know what else to say, but it's unkind. At the very least, it's unkind.

And it's not thoughtful. And, you know, pulling out this, I don't get to else to say, but it's unkind. At the very least, it's unkind. And it's not thoughtful. And, you know, pulling out this, I don't get to say what I want. You know, I had an interesting discussion, and then we can move on, with a really high-ranking CEO. It's like, I never get to say everything I want anymore. And I was like the same thing. That's probably a good thing, right? I was like, you know what? That's probably a good thing.

Good. You shouldn't say everything you want anymore. You've been getting to say anything you want for your whole life. And maybe you should start thinking about, and not to be like, it's not woke as Dan to say, can't you just be, look, there are people who have suffered that you have no idea about or what they've gone through. This is a group of people, especially this group of people, that continue to this day to be continually attacked and that you have to do this argument and not um and make it this big a deal is just um i just the nicest moment was where the biggest insight for you was if you had to pick one or two here's overall i thought all the speakers came to

talk and say significant things right i don't i think people were first of all were dying to get together that's the one thing is the attendees were thrilled like i had so many people like i'm And say significant things, right? I think people, first of all, were dying to get together. That's the one thing. The attendees were thrilled. I had so many people like, I'm so happy to be here, which I thought was great. I thought that was a great part. And I thought we gave them really great content. And the speakers also came to really, were excited to talk, I think, about various issues.

Obviously, you know, Dr. Nadella I thought was tremendous. He's very good. But he's very good and was funny too. And, you know, took a few dings at Amazon and TikTok, the TikTok deal. Well, then I just sort of have to ask about TikTok. Tell me what happened there. It's the strangest thing I've ever sort of worked on.

I figure. It's the strangest thing I've ever reported on. It's unbelievable. I thing I've ever sort of worked on. I figured. It's the strangest thing I've ever reported on. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's... I learned so much, Cara, about so many things and so many people. Well, the thing that made news was Elon saying

that Jeff Bezos should focus on getting to orbit, not lawsuits. You cannot sue your way to the moon. Okay. You know what? How good your lawyers are. Yeah. Hello, passive-aggressive minus the passive.

And that made a lot of news. That made a lot of news. This is a lawsuit from Blue Origin about a lunar lander contract that Elon at SpaceX has gotten with NASA. Amazon responded. What did they say? What did they do? Well, just hours later, they sent a 13-page list to our friends at The Verge detailing litigation and other legal actions filed by SpaceX against the government going back as 2004. So,

they were like, come on, boss. What's good for the goose? And then Elon responded on Twitter saying, SpaceX has sued to be allowed to compete blue origin is suing to stop competition you know tomato tomato boss this definitely is like their sword fighting with their dicks has gone now it's not in space it's here at code yeah but it strikes me as very strange that these guys are it's time to it strikes me as a little bit childish the way they're kind of going after each other like this i they clearly don't like each other he said he said they don't speak i would have i would think guys like that would talk they don't talk yeah that strikes me as weird yeah no well here's the thing elon is so far ahead of everybody else you

know a factor in space he's got in cars i mean like everywhere yeah that he competes, you know, a factor. In space. In space. He's got, and cars. I mean, like everywhere that he competes. You know, the space stuff, he's got like most of the cutting edge stuff. And they're all sort of racing to keep up. I mean, the numbers are very clear. I think he enjoys having a little back and forth. He likes the game, you know. And I liked it. I liked that he talks about it.

You know, he talked a lot about Mars and stuff like that. So I enjoyed it. I don't mind this. I think it's funny. And I love that Amazon kind of without a sense of humor responds. You know, they could have done something funny. And by the way, why was Amazon responding when Blue Origin is owned by Jeff Bezos? That's what I'd like to know.

Yeah, that seems a little bit weird. You know what I thought was the nicest moment or the nicest panel was the one on psychedelics. I was very – I come to this stuff and I look for insight. But more – I find as I get older, I'm looking for something that – where I feel something that creates an emotion or emotional response. And I found it very moving. I think his name was Sanjay on the psychedelics panel. What's the institute he runs? Joe Green, I forget.

Yeah, Nick Keon Foundation. Nick Keon, yeah, thank you. And he talked about his daughter's anorexia and the role that psychedelics played and that his bipolar condition was treated or that psychedelics played a role in that. And I thought that was very brave of him in that. And I thought that was very brave of him. And also, I thought it was moving. And I didn't realize the exciting thing or the thing I took away from that panel is they're talking about things ranging from obesity to criminal recidivism. There's a lot of potential treatments here. And then Rick Smolin had a great question, and that is, there's no free lunch with anything and he was right he was literally reading my mind and that is what is the downside when everyone is doing these kind of

guided these guided trips um uh but in that company field trip that's basically opening kind of the williams noma psychedelics i thought that was really interesting because i think so many of us are a bit confused about where to start i I am going to do, and it's going to be actually an episode on my program on CNN Plus. I'm going to do one of these guided trips. I've been scared to do it, but I'm going to do it. Yeah. Which one are you, ketamine therapy? I'm going to do it through, so that guy- That's what they do at Field Trip, ketamine therapy. Yeah, ketamine. It was that guy Ronan. I thought he was, he struck me as just a very level-headed guy. And I like the idea of having a senior executive in one of these companies make sure that I'm treated well or that shit doesn't go wrong or whatever, which I don't think it does very often. I think it's a lot less dangerous or risky than you might think.

I don't know why it intimidates me. But anyways, I'm going to do a documentary. You're going to discover yourself. That'll be good. You should do that. See, I'm not sure I need to. I'm not sure I want to see me or my issues. I don't. That's what scares me about it. Really'll be good. You should do that. See, I'm not sure I need to. I'm not sure I want to see me or my issues. That's what scares me about it. Really, you should. You'll be happier.

You think? Okay. See, I'm completely self-actualized. But I'm happy with my self-hating self. I'm down with it. No, you wouldn't be a very good candidate for that. No, I think it's an interesting thing. I think what's interesting about it was that these are going to be businesses and they're going to be, I think one of the things we're going to talk about, our next event's going to be PivotCon, is this changing healthcare system. And I think both the panels on the body and the mind were really interesting because one of the messages was, whatever you think, some of this stuff is going to be quackery, some of it's not.

The healthcare system and how we treat ourselves needs to change dramatically. And it's also a financial opportunity. And the way it's set up really is not about health in any way. It's about treatment. And so I just really look forward to delving into, besides climate change tech and Bitcoin and changing of the financial system. I don't think there was a non-interesting interview. Benioff got a lot of kudos for his interview. Yeah. He said something that I took down, and that is, what is your highest value?

Like, as a company, what is the kind of the one value you will not negotiate on and pursue? And I thought that was very instructive. And I thought, I have this whole thing. Growth is not a value. Growth is not a value. That's right. It's hopefully an outcome. But anyways, I do this exercise with my students, my brand strategy class.

I'm like, think about yourself as a brand professionally and personally and establish. Paul Romer, Nobel Prize winning economist and a colleague at NYU, used to say, and it really moved me, he said, you have to have a code. You have to have your own code. You have to identify early in your life what your code is and what's not negotiable around your values. interesting exercise that every leadership team should say, what is our highest value? Like at the end of the day, what is the value we're trying to evangelize and promote and spread around the world? I thought that was very interesting. And it got me thinking about my own companies. Yeah. He was referencing Facebook a couple of years ago. He told me in an interview that Facebook was like a cigarette company and everyone sort of come around to that idea. I think it's more like an opiate company or a gambling company. But that's what he was discussing.

Facebook wouldn't come. We asked them. There were a lot of Facebook people in the audience, though, for sure. I think they were smart. I think they should keep a low profile right now. I mean, I'm not talking about what they should do, but the smart thing to do is they should just – there's no winning for them right now because the truth is coming out. And there's just – for them right now because the truth is there the truth is coming out and there's just it's what it's indefensible their shit's just indefensible everyone's just sort of sick of the spin and sick of nick clegg and his accent and everyone's just saying okay you're

charming and you're british but you're full of shit uh i think they're smart if i were advising them i'd say yeah just keep it keep it on the low right now there's no there's no winning for them on for anyone on any stage in the world right now. Well, Scott, maybe there's a good to be not winning for a minute. How about that? Well, sister, I'm with you. We're brothers from another mother on this one, or sisters from another father. I would be transparent, utterly say, okay, here's what we did wrong. And by the way, we're going to be running that full Elon Musk interview and a few other

interviews from Code next week on the show. Should we pivot to a listener question, Kara? Let's do that. Anyway, it was a good time. Well done, Kara. Well done. Thank you. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hey, Scott and Kara. This is Lisa, and I'm a big fan of the show. I'm a library director for King County Library System. We're one of the biggest library systems in the country. Our libraries are beautiful and for many years we've encouraged the public to come in all day, get on the internet, take your kids to story time, practice English as a second language. Now obviously meeting in person has been upended and while I continue to physically support e-resources and e-books, I'm very worried about public spaces, especially

the most democratic of all. What do you think is the future of the public library? And what should we be doing to be more relevant and to continue to thrive and survive? Thanks. I love libraries, but I'm worried, I would say. I would love to take my daughter and upcoming new son to the library. But obviously, COVID has put a problem with her going. So I don't know. I spent a lot of time in libraries. But I think kids do not. What do you think, Scott?

Yeah, there's a lot here. So I don't go to fundraisers very much or ever. I, you know, going in a windowless room and eating chicken. So we all feel good about ourselves and, you know, spend $500 so they can spend $300 on a bad dinner. That whole circuit really turns me off. But the one thing I do go to is there's this thing in Delray Beach that's run by a friend of ours called Laugh at the Library. And they try and raise money for the the Delaware Public Library. I think there's a bigger issue, and that is one of the real downsides to dispersion or the fact that we're all withdrawing to our cohorts and distancing is I think the ugly cousin to dispersion is segregation. And the problem with dispersion and not having places,

great public places like libraries is we're not touching and feeling each other and we're not going to have as much empathy and libraries were a great place where a lot of people from different backgrounds came together to just be in each other's company and i i think these public places and our lack of mixing if you will is a big threat and one of the most unfortunate things coming out of this pandemic. And there's just very few things that are more benign and more wonderful than a library. The question is, realistically, is as much all the good feels we have about them, are they still practical? Is the new generation going to use them? And it's a real question. What could they become?

I don't know. Is it got to be a place that has just such extraordinary bandwidth? Do they build podcast studios? Do they have creative studios that you can rent out and lease? I mean, you used to go for basically the library used to be really the card catalog. And then as you needed to find a source, you'd go to this giant card catalog. And then you'd go to the fourth floor and find your book on microbiology or whatever. And now we have Google. These things just aren't needed, but there are a lot of points of learning and production that still large swaths of the community don't have access to, or just a quiet, nice place to go and get work done.

Should it be kind of the new— Community. done. Should it be kind of the new, I mean, to a certain extent, the Soho House and Ace Hotel and all these big lobbies that people go to work to, they've kind of, to a certain extent, usurped that role from libraries, right? For rich people. That's exactly right. So, should libraries take it back? And again, it's just more basically a lack of trust in our institutions. We've decided, oh, that should be privatized. But everybody likes a library, but there's just no getting around it.

They're going to have to innovate and make the offering more compelling. What are your thoughts, Kara? Well, I think one of the things that I like, I still use libraries for my sons who are older now, is going for reading time, story time, things like that. who are older now, is going for reading time, story time, things like that. There's certain things they do there that are, you know, where the kids can interact with each other. Those were all totally useful. Reading time, sitting, just sitting with other kids and reading, that was great. But all, it was all about the community aspect of it. Obviously, it can't be a place just to take a book out because, look, the numbers are in the numbers. And people still read books and people need access to books they don't have to

buy. So that's important. I just feel like if they move it into a more community space and program a whole lot more, just program the shit out of it, that could be something that's interesting. Speeches, things for kids uh artwork book signings all kinds of stuff signings but then again then you run right into the private like then bookstores you know that it just goes there the problem is that people are withdrawing into their own little pods that's right and um and and they can get everything is accessible on the internet everything Everything. Right? And it's easier.

And it's cheaper. And it's really hard. I don't quite know what you could do but create the things you were talking about. It's hard, Lisa. I'm not sure. And it's unnecessary. But it isn't, if that makes sense. Yeah, we all agree we like libraries.

Now, quite frankly, that would be able to prove that we should and that it's, I guess. Yeah, we all agree. We all agree we like libraries. Now, quite frankly, that'd be able to prove that we should and that it's worth the investment. Okay, Kara, one more quick break and we'll be back for predictions. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere and you're making content that no one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign

well that's why we built HubSpot it's an AI powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you tells you which leads are worth knowing and makes writing blogs creating videos and posting on social a breeze so now it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. I just don't get it. Just wish someone could do the research on it. Can we figure this out? Hey, y'all. I'm John Blenhill, and I'm hosting a new podcast at Vox called Explain It To Me.

Here's how it works. You call our hotline with questions you can't quite answer on your own. We'll investigate and call you back to tell you what we found. We'll bring you the answers you need every Wednesday starting September 18th. So follow Explain It To Me, presented by Klaviyo. Kara, do you have any predictions? I predict that I am someday not going to be sick. No, I predict, Scott.

That's your area. That's me. That's your CNN Plu area of expertise. Hello. Hello. Hello. That's right. Okay. So I have a couple predictions.

The first is, I don't know if you saw the news, but Amazon and Apple are making big entrees. And we predicted this. I said that Amazon was going to be the fastest growing $1 billion plus healthcare company in the world. And they were lining up their troops at the border with Halo and Whole Foods. And they had the infrastructure to take healthcare, at least primary healthcare, maybe diagnostics, and take it from a defensive driven industry to an offensive one and manage your fitness, manage your health. Well, they've announced a bunch of initiatives and products focused on fitness and health alongside Apple is also doing this. And my prediction is that a lot of, if you think about fitness apps and even the meditation apps, what they are is streaming media companies. They're basically, they're competing with netflix and i think these companies as a lot of industries have have incurred about to be rolled over by big tech

i think amazon and apple are coming into all types of wellness and streaming media if you will and i think organizations like calm and headspace are really going to suffer and a lot of these fitness apps that have gotten some traction are in my my opinion, just going to be run over. So Amazon and Apple. And it's going to be another example of how big tech just kind of flips the switch and rolls over a lot of innovators. But I think the market is about to get very ugly for meditation and fitness apps. That's my first prediction. Oh, wow.

My second is COVID's enduring future, and we keep saying this, will be seen as an accelerant, not as a change agent. One of the things that's accelerated massively is income inequality. But what we don't talk about is there's going to be a much greater, much more scrutiny on vaccine inequality. And that is, it's estimated that by the end of the year, get this, America, we are supposedly going to waste or destroy 100 to 250 million doses of vaccine, enough vaccine to probably vaccinate three or four Central and Latin American countries. And it's going to bring up a very interesting conversation around wealthy countries versus poor countries. And what is our obligation that if we're not going to use this vaccine, because quite frankly, we have our heads up our asses, should we be shipping that vaccine and putting our supply

chain to work for the good of other people? Similar to what we did in, I would argue, World War II. What you've talked about. What you've talked about. Anyways, my two predictions, the fitness and meditation and wellness streaming content apps out there are about to be rolled over and have huge pressure on them. It'll be really interesting to see what happens

with Peloton, by the way. And then two, I'm sorry, under the auspices of big tech, yet again, coming into another category. And two, I think vaccine inequality is about to become a much bigger story. That's interesting. Wow. In any case, you're absolutely correct. I actually did find something really interesting. And let me say with a grain of salt, this was a poll done by a PAC from John Bolton, Trump's former national security advisor, who despises Trump. But nonetheless,

there's a poll that shows that numbers for Donald Trump are declining rather quickly. And your governor, Ron DeSantis, is surging in the 2024 GOP presidential candidates. I did not know that, really. Yeah. Now, again, grain of salt with where we're coming from. But I think that his support is much softer than people think. Trump or DeSantis? Trump.

Trump. Oh, we've said this all along, but some of it is just, I can't tell. I can't separate the bias here. But I've always thought a guy that lost in what was kind of a near landslide who's going to be pushing 78. And by the way, he's toxic. Anyone who gets near him has their reputations ruined. And he's just positioned the Republican Party in an impossible position. But at the same time, he can get people elected or more than anything, get them not elected.

I just don't think that wine ages well. as well and also speaking of aging i think biology you know he's a he's a very you know technically obese guy at the age of what is he now 75 or 76 i just wonder when he starts to quite frankly slow down um anyway but i've always thought he was he was um that his prospects as a power he'll still be a kind of a kingmaker, but I don't think, I think that brand's got to start waning. But God, I agree. It's interesting. We'll see what happens. Obviously, Biden's numbers are way down because of the Afghanistan revolt. That may jump back if he gets these things passed. If he doesn't, big problems for him. But it's a real end for a lot of people like Chris Christie, Nick Ailey, et cetera.

But there's this toxic. So I think the terms toxic and masculinity have been conflated. And I don't even like to use the two terms together. But I do think there is a toxic masculinity when it comes to public policy and geopolitical decisions where we respect people who make these very bold moves that involve death and involve wars. And actually, I think Biden people will say he got out. He did not get out elegantly. It was kind of a tragedy on certain levels. I think people in the rear view mirror will see that as a leadership position. They won't remember how he got out. They'll just remember we got out. Unfortunately, I think DeSantis, I hate to say this because I think it's depraved what he's done and his behavior. I think people find that kind of stuff, leadership, stuck to his guns despite the fact that kids

were being admitted to ICUs and infections went up. I think America has this sort of preoccupation with people who make these kind of weird, we would rather somebody be wrong, but stick to being wrong with conviction. And I do think that's a form of this sort of weirdness around kind of macho decisions. I don't, I think it's very unhealthy and I think we're infected from it, but I think both Biden and DeSantis are probably, are going to get, quite frankly, are going to benefit from those, both those decisions. Anyway, I want to thank everyone, including you, Scott, for all the stuff you did at Code. The experiential team at Vox Media, including Adam To, the tech lead for all their help at Code.

I want to thank everyone, including Shannon Thompson, Michelle Berg, so many others. Jill Pendergast has been with me for years. There's just so many people who contribute to code. But especially you. You've been a real friend and colleague doing this time. So if you would read us that. Thank you. That makes me feel nice.

All right. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Thanks also to Drew Burrows. Also Ernie, the E-man, E to the endrotot, engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. If you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next Friday for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

On the psychedelics panel, the individual, the guy on the panel, I don't even remember his name, said, what is the common theme after everyone experiences psychedelics? And he said, universally, universally, the recognition, the finding when you do psychedelics is that love is the answer. I don't know what that has to do with psychedelics, but I like that, Kara. Love is the answer. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things. And it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure.

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