Pivot - Trump’s Top Secret Photo, Snap Layoffs, and more with George Hahn

Episode Date: September 2, 2022

George Hahn is back for our final Scott-Free August episode! Kara and George discuss Twitter's big changes (hello, Edit Button!), Snap’s disappearing staffers, and a photo shoot that may have laid Trump's secrets bare. Also, Elon Musk subpoenaed the Twitter whistleblower. Dr. Jeffrey Swisher joins to talk about long COVID, Monkeypox, and Kara's first cigarette. You can find George on Twitter at @georgehahn, and Jeffrey at @jeffreyswisher. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or via Yappa, at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. It's technically September, but in our hearts, it's still scot-free August. And we're closing with my favorite co-host and

friend of the show and who was the most popular last year during scot-free August, the one and only George Hahn. George. Wait, that can't be true. It can't be true. I agree. I couldn't. I was pretty surprised, honestly. I thought, really? Seriously. I mean, if nothing, I am living proof that just a little bit of nerve, a lot of sass, and a deficit of shame, and a solid A cup will shoot me straight to the middle. Yes, but you did a great job.

And people loved you. They like our banter. They think that they like when we gay it up, which this is going to be a particularly gay show. But isn't it gayer when Scott's on? Yes, it is. We have a lot to talk about. Scott is very upset, so I thought it would be good to piss off Scott the very last show.

I'm so hard on him. Now, I heard that you haven't had a Scott-free August. What is going on? Everyone's seen Scott but Kara Swisher. I've had a Scott-full August. In fact, I think I might be having his baby. Really? I am doing his...

He has a podcast every week. It's sort of an audio version of his No Mercy, No Malice newsletter slash. Right. And I do that. We drop that every Saturday, so I record that on Fridays.

And then I was just up, he and his stunning wife, I could go on all day about her and everybody. She's amazing. They invited me up for a weekend a couple weeks ago in Nantucket, and it was so lovely.

Yes. Have you ever been? No. Everyone's been. You know what I have? I went up there for one of that Nantucket Nectars guy, whatever. He has one of those blah, blah, blah conferences, right? Whatever.

And I went up for that, and I didn't like Nantucket. I have to tell you, I don't like Nantucket. Why? It's too, you know, I grew up in Princeton, New Jersey. It's too preppy, first of all. Every time I fly in, I think someday this won't exist because it's so flat. And then all the houses are the same. And I'm sure you like that aesthetic, but I do not. Well, the house was like, I felt like I was in the set of a Nancy Meyers film. Like I felt like Jack Nicholson in Diane Keaton's house. Yes, I like it when they have to build like that. And

the other thing is, I just, when I see the wideale corduroys, multicolored wide-wale corduroys, I come back to where I grew up in the whale belts. And I'm sort of like, do you understand this world is over kind of thing? But they don't, right? Does that make sense? There's a lot of Oxford cloth. A lot of Oxford, very white. I saw our former Secretary of State and Massachusetts Senator John Kerry was at a restaurant we were having dinner at. Of course.

He's probably part of the furniture there. He's rusted in. I get why people like it. And they like to war with Martha's Vineyard, which I kind of find more interesting in a lot of ways. I don't know why. I don't know. They just have this weird—I've never been to Martha's Vineyard. I like—you know where I like, George?

Provincetown. Who—come on. Who doesn't you know where I like, George? Provincetown. Who, come on. Who doesn't? I like Provincetown. It's a special animal. It has the cedar thing. It's got the weird out, sort of San Francisco by the way. It's a little too much, which I like.

And then all the straight people come now. And they like it too. Like it's really, I don't know. I kind of like it. I like Provincetown a lot. I love it. But it's this gig that you're doing. You're doing it regularly?

Yeah, we do it every week. It's in the Prop G pod, like, feed. Then he's got a couple of other products, if you will. Like, there's No Mercy, No Malice that he and I do every week. And then he's got another one called Markets that he drops every Monday. And then there's his Prop G thing. So in that same feed, he's got a couple of products going and it's fun. I really, I really enjoy it. He does those through August and not this one. So I have noticed. Have you noticed

that? Yeah. What's that about? Because this is what made him famous, right? I know. And I like, I didn't ask him about it. You know, we of time together. And again, his wife, she is so lovely. She's amazing. I might be a lesbian now. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And she rallies that.

As you know, my mother thinks he's gay, as you know. I know. I have news for your mother, but that's okay. Anyway, we've got a lot to talk about today. And I know you have a lot to say about a lot of things. But today we're gonna talk about Donald Trump's true social meltdown. As the case against him grows, I we saved it for you. Also, Snapchat's loss could be Netflix's gain. We'll hear from very special friend of pivot, my brother about long COVID, etc. There's

a lot going on there. I was just in San Francisco with Jeff and Jeff Swisher and did a lot of tests, which he was great with helping me through them and stuff like that. I have nothing wrong with me. I just always get myself tested. And I know, George, you have a lot to say about that, too. But first, Twitter is announcing all sorts of new features this week. They were continuing to move on the latest and edit feature for Twitter Blue subscribers for $4.99 a month. You'll be able to edit a tweet for 30 minutes after you first post it. Here's the thing, though. Edited tweets will be labeled and users will be able to look at the previous versions, which is a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think it should be free. I don't know why they don't make it free. That should be something everybody else has

editable everything. Meanwhile, the social media company is also rolling out its new circles feature. Users can now share tweets with a select group of friends while hiding them from the main timeline. Some users are calling the rollout a gay Twitter holiday. George, have you been using Circles? Did you celebrate Circle Day? I've not been using Twitter's Circle Jerk, whatever it is. No. What I don't understand, and I'm not being funny here, I don't understand the difference between Circles or communities, which Pivot has a Twitter community, and then there's a private message group. What is the difference?

I, exactly. Thank you. You just articulated the problem. Thank you. It's all the same. I think this is the issue. It's all the same. And one of the things, circles was used on Google, and I don't even remember when Google had Google Plus. Do you remember Google Plus? I remember that. Yes. And you made circles, and it was so fucking confusing. I don't understand what is – why would you – first of all, why wouldn't you just use text if you were texting a group of friends, right? Group text, which seemed to work.

And there was a bunch of group text apps for years, but group text seems to work just fine. Right. And if you don't want people to see things on Twitter, why are you on Twitter at all, right? Right. That's another thing. I'm not going to do some Carlos Danger, Anthony Weiner, naughtiness. That's for Grindr. Honestly, I trust the security of texts on, say, an Apple phone versus on Twitter. I would worry that it would get seen. I don't DM as much anymore. I don't know about you.

How do I want to say this? Number one, what's with the extra charge? I already subscribed to Twitter Blue, and that gets me some ad-free content, and I can upload videos up to 10 minutes long. Yay. Right. But also, is it in Twitter's best interest? Is it in our best interest as they scramble for a way to become, I don't know, because they're bored, they need to tack on a feature or something? Right. It's confusing, but do we need it?

We need the edit button. The edit button's a great idea. 100% agreed, but I'm kind of like, let's go back to need it? We need the edit button. The edit button's a great idea, 100% agreed. But I'm kind of like, let's go back to the DNA. Like, I like the OG Twitter in a way. Like, that's what, it's like when Mini Coopers came and everybody loved the Mini Cooper and we love how small it is. Okay, great, now let's make it big. Okay, great, you just killed what made it charming.

Yeah, I'll go. I have a big Mini Cooper. All right, we got to talk about that. It's not mine. It's my son's. Well, we have one. We had one, and we liked it. I like my Mini Cooper.

But you got the one that looks like it's got blown up on steroids? Yes, because I have big children. It's too small. But why a Mini? You need a maxi vehicle for your large, tall son. I do. I have a Kia Sorento, as most people know. I have a Kia Sorento for all the children, which makes me very sexy. It's hot in

the upside down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. People are like, is that a Kia Sorento you're driving? Yes, it's only $28,000. It was like super cheaper than, there's like a Volvo version of it. If you want to tell the world you hate sex, we have the car for you. I love my Kia Sorento. I love it so much. It's the segue of cars. Okay, I had a Honda minivan when I was in my 20s. I drove a Honda minivan.

That's what I drove. And I used to push the button and go, get in. Oh, God. It was sexy. I love my Honda minivan. I don't know why I had it. I had it, though. I loved it. I mean, I like vans for different reasons, you know, but... Okay. All right. Okay. Well, I just get it.

This is a family show. Yeah, exactly. No, it's not. Not at all. Not with you here. So you don't think this matters. What is Twitter to do? I haven't heard your comments on the Elon Twitter thing, obviously. But by the way, speaking of that, earlier this year, Twitter considered taking on OnlyFans. The company considered allowing adult content creators to sell subscriptions to their content while taking a cut. But in tests, Twitter concluded that it could not, quote, accurately detect child sexual exploitation and non-consensual nudity at scale and killed the idea. It's not where you go for your porn, is it? No, just be Twitter. And also Scott has been beating this drum a lot and I'm on the same page with him.

Charge money but for the reason Scott has talked about if you have X amount of followers you pay this tier I would really like I like that we've got the blue check verified thing so like I know who I am so when trolls come at me and they occasionally do I don't really engage with them but

one of my favorite comebacks is please use your real name, you trolls come at me, and they occasionally do, I don't really engage with them. But one of my favorite comebacks is, please use your real, you know, come at me with your real name and a real photo. You know who I am. Otherwise, like, why should I care? Right. But porn, not something you know, Twitter? No, no, there are porn. There are there is porn on Twitter. I have come across it. Right. Not that much. No, not not. You don't see it a lot. No. Right. Yeah. But do you think about them making it a business? It's a very lucrative business. It can be a lucrative business. Of course it is. They always say, if you want to know where tech's going, follow the porn. Right, exactly. So what do you think of them doing that? You wouldn't use it for that? No, not at all. I have other resources for that.

All right. And lastly, I'd love to know what your thoughts on Elon Musk, his latest legal move. He has a lot of them, just like Donald Trump in a weird way, is subpoenaing the Twitter whistleblower, Peter Zotko, a.k.a. Mudge. Let's call him Mudge. Musk has sought information from a whistleblower on how Twitter measures spam accounts. In addition, he's requested information about attempts to hide security weaknesses and Twitter's engagement. Of course he was going to do this, this guy who was. Where do we think we are with this? Is the air of – is the air out of the balloon on this particular – No, I just think – well, I don't know.

I think the timing is really convenient in light of the arguments that Musk is trying to make in order to weasel out of the deal. But this whistleblower's – this report or whatever, the timing is very convenient because it gives Elon another sort of wave to surf. Oh, and by the way, and then there's this, and this is the other reason why I don't want to go through this deal. It's like, no, dude. Right. You and Mr. – you and Cohen talked about it last week or last episode. This whole thing was Elon's idea. Like, dude, you hit on Twitter, and now you don't want to put out.

Like, now you've decided you want to close. You hit on Twitter. He is the one who started. Yeah, he did. He hit on Twitter. He hit on Twitter. And now Twitter's like, okay, well, maybe I'm interested. Yeah, except now they want the money.

Right. This is a hooker transaction, and he's trying to get away with nothing. How would you feel if he does get a hold of it? How would you feel about Twitter does get a hold of it? How would you feel about Twitter? I would still use it. I would wait and see because I don't know what he's going to do. I'm not a fan of Elon. I think he's a dick.

Right. But I would wait and see. You say that like that's a bad thing, but go ahead. Sorry. It's not the kind of dick I appreciate, Karen. Oh, okay. All right. Okay.

I think it'll be interesting. It does make me worry about, honestly, security. That's what I would worry about. Yeah. I probably should be worried about security now, but I don't feel like— I think he would let Trump back—I mean, he's flirted with the idea of letting Trump back on. No, he said he would. He said— Which is a horrible idea.

Yeah. Which is a horrible idea. Well, we'll get to what—Tr Trump's got to have somewhere to go soon. We'll talk about that in a second. Lastly, Goldman Sachs says school is back in session and COVID is out. The firm is asking workers to come back into the office five days a week and will drop all COVID requirements for office entry. Goldman chief executive David Solomon has long been opposed to continuing remote work, has been pushing for return since February 2021. What do you think about this? I mean, neither you or I go into the office, so.

Listen, leaders lead and often lead by example. Set the tone. But if David Solomon's not in the office full time, then he's got to fuck off with this. So they've got to make a good case for it. Exactly. And not just because. Not just because you're claiming that it's good for the company culture.

Personally, I have my own personal feelings about it. I'm at Vox right now. I'm not doing this in my apartment. I like getting out of the house, personally. I like coming here. I've got- When you want. When I want. But I like coming here. But if I go outside the studio, it's tumbleweeds. Yes, it's empty. It's crazy. So what is the solution? Or what is the option? I think give people the option, I suppose. And some people, especially if they are caretakers of a loved one or if they have children or something. Like if I were living, my mother is sick and like a job, a great job for my sister who's been largely her caretaker would be if she got to work remotely, but she cannot.

She cannot. Right. She's not allowed. No, not with her job. So I think it depends. And also, especially for young people, Scott, again, I mean, I am sitting in his chair. I know he thinks they should go in and make friends. Yeah, especially if they're young, you got to make connections and like figure out Monday, Wednesday, Friday, whatever it is, but everyone has to be there. Because what happens is people go in, and they're the only person in there if they hit know, everything you need to know is in the movie 9 to 5, because there was the storyline in there about flexible work hours.

And when they kidnapped Dabney Coleman and the three ladies started taking over, they made flexible work hours a thing. Yes, they did. And the secretaries were happy, and it was a better place. Like, everything you need to know is in that movie. It's wonderful. That's a great movie. It's wonderful. What's your favorite scene? It's Do fair place. Like, everything you need to know is in that movie. It's wonderful. That's a great movie. It's wonderful. What's your favorite scene?

It's Dolly Parton. It's delicious, but always one of my favorite is, I love the three women, of course, but I love Elizabeth Wilson. She plays Roz. Oh, right, yeah. Violet, did you get my memo? Yeah, Roz, I tore right through it. Did you get the latest memo? Yes, Roz, I know right where to stick it.

She's so great. She was my acting teacher. She was great. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, she was fantastic. Every office has a Roz, and we need Roz back in the office. You've got to figure out ways to make some jokes, and, you know, there's good times to be here. You know what I do?

I show up at the office every now and again to delight people. That's how I did it. No, I didn't. Office hours. Office hours, exactly. Like a professor. Exactly. That's how I did it. No, I didn't. Office hours. Office hours, exactly. Like a professor. Exactly. That's me, Professor Swisher.

Anyway, let's get on to our big story now. The Justice Department is showing its hand in a court filing this week. The DOJ published a photo that appears to show top secret documents seized from Trump's residence. The government says that the documents were intentionally hidden from investigators, which could lay the groundwork for obstruction.

And on Wednesday night, Trump seemed to confirm the documents were his in a post on Truth Social. He really has to stop posting. So this has been astonishing. This is crazy. What do we make of the evolving defense? He also went on a posting spree on Truth Social.

He spent Tuesday morning reposting content from his supporters, more than 60 posts in all. some of it straight from QAnon and 4chan. So talk a little bit about this, because the New York Times had noted the department officials are not expected to file charges imminently if they ever do. I can't imagine someone's not going to be charged here, but maybe his lawyers. How are you looking at this? maybe his lawyers. How are you looking at this? I'm looking at a guy who's unraveling. I think on Tuesday, somebody on Twitter, because everybody reposts or screenshots. I was enjoying Twitter because it was Trump-free, and now it's not. I guess maybe you might as well just let him back on on some level, because all of his content winds up there regurgitated anyway. Yes, yes, 100. Pictures of it, for sure. Screenshots of his truths. But I think he posted like 60 times that day. Yeah, yeah. That's irrational, abnormal.

He's panicking. I read a thing recently where someone sent, a guy who was close to him, I forget who this person was, or was writing about him or something. When Trump got kicked off social media, he was depressed and he put on a bunch of weight.

He was freaking out. Trump freaks out. This is him, I think, freaking out. Well, he likes popularity. I think someone was noting to me, someone who covers him, that he likes popularity. And if he's not being talked about, even if it's badly, he gets upset. Oh, of course.

He's equating that thing, even though it's actually actually the Republicans are not very happy that it's about Trump again, because they want to be talking about Joe Biden. They want to talk about gas prices, inflation going into the elections, which they were winning, really. Now they're not really winning. We'll see what happens. But they should be winning right now. And right now it's all about Trump and possibly nefarious things he's done. I think he should just keep doling out enough rope with which to politically hang himself, you know? Well, what about in terms of his defenses? He says he declassified things, his lawyers gave him all the classified documents. Okay, I kept them, but not on the floor.

You know, they were in a box, et cetera, et cetera. George Conway noted they in asking for this special master, it allowed the feds to say what this what he had done and put it out there, which they wouldn't have been able to officially. And so they're speaking with their filings. And so one of the things George Conway said, which I thought was really smart, is they said that he asked them to punch them in the face and they did. And that's what they did. And we laugh about it, but, you know, he's encouraging people to believe conspiracy theories. We're still talking about the conspiracy theories, including this one. There was a bomb threat this week at Boston Children's Hospitals after right-wing media spread rumors of child abuse there. And other people think he should just, since he's posting confessions, maybe he should just keep posting, no matter what the lawyers say, post, post, post. I'm sort of like enough of him. He just either charge him or don't and then move on from him. But people seem not to be able to. On some level, it is interesting and perhaps ultimately detrimental if he keeps doling out enough rope with which to hang himself and taunting.

And then there was another part of me, Cara, like, OK, blah, we get excited about this. We've been excited about other things before, whether it was the impeachment, whether it's the January 6th hearings. Now we're going to get the villain, right? Now. Are we, though? Because we, part of me, the cynic in me is saying to myself, self, nothing's going to change.

He's going to get away with this. The rules and the law do not apply to him, and it's going to change. He's going to get away with this. The rules and the law do not apply to him and it's going to be nothing. And on Twitter, everyone, so many people seem to get really excited about it and tweeting photos and opinions I respect. Oh, here it's coming. It's coming. He's in trouble now. He's in trouble now. And I'm just sitting there going like, you know what, I'm going to go take a nap. Wake me up when he's in jail. There is a difference between lawyers, legal stuff and Congress, right? Congress has no teeth. Law stuff. I mean, look, Martha Stewart went in jail for a very relatively minor thing compared to this, right? But she's Martha Stewart

and he's Donald Trump is this weird, like he's a real greasy animal. You know, he is a greased pig. Seriously. He really is. He is. The legal things, I think, are much more, although he's gotten out of legal jams before in lots of different ways. That's what I mean. I want to be hopeful. The thing is, everyone behaves, I think, and he doesn't. And that's where the power is. For example, the Justice Department, 60 days before an election, tends not to charge things that are highly political. So that's September 10th. So if they don't charge him by September 10th, they're not going to charge him until after the election.

You know, they certainly could charge his lawyers. They could charge all kinds of things. But it's because everyone else behaves and he doesn't. And we're learning. What are they going to do? Kind of nothing. Or is there anything you can do, right? That's the problem. And it gets it does get a little disheartening. At the same time, it's it's a downward spiral on some level for him. I think the Republicans have sort of had it that it's about him and, you know, hair on a Democrat who's quite liberal over Sarah Palin, which is amazing. I think that's the result of this nonsense for them.

You know, when it comes to Trump, and again, he is this very, he is a completely original animal in this game. And he is defied. You know, listen, we thought he was done after Access Hollywood, the Access Hollywood tape. It should have been done after he made fun of a disabled reporter. It should have been over after X, like pick a point. There are so many. And yet he just keeps going and the crowd cheers him on louder. Here's the comparison I make is John Gotti.

He got got and he died in prison. That's what happened to him. They flouted it. Remember, he was always like, yeah, come and he died in prison. That's what happened to him. They flouted it. Remember, he was always like, yeah, come and arrest me, whatever. Teflon Don. Eventually, he died in prison. That's actually what happened to him. So fingers crossed. I don't know. I think this is just I'm really astonished by sort of the shamelessness of it. Then I'm like, oh, that is actually a very powerful way to be. But speaking of which, he may not have a place to post. True Social is still not available in the Google Play Store.

Google says the app lacks the needed systems for moderating user contact. That's a violation of the store's terms of service. I don't know if Apple will be doing the same. And also, it's got all kinds of money problems, whether it's the SPAC. It's not going to SPAC properly. They aren't paying vendors and things like that. So this business. A Trump enterprise isn't paying a vendor?

You're kidding. I know. Exactly. So this business. A Trump enterprise isn't paying a vendor? You're kidding. I know, exactly. So he may not have a place to post. So he either has to go to another one or that's going to be a giant mess from what I've been talking to all the people. It's been a giant mess. It's always been a mess. Yes, I get it. But it's going to not exist at some point.

And so the question is, where does he go? And if Elon gets it, he does get back on Twitter or he goes over to some of the others like Getter or Parler or wherever. But here's, from a copyright standpoint, what I've never seen Truth Social other than the screenshots that people post on it, it is such a Twitter knockoff, like almost literally. Can't Twitter take them to court? Like, that's what our icons look like. That's where we put our, they can't, there's nothing there. No, nothing. He can do that.

I think the question is whether he gets back on one of the main systems or not. And they're hoping, you know, if Twitter prevails against Elon, Elon does not buy the company and it gets its money, I don't think they'll ever revisit this again. All right, George, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the trouble at Snapchat and speak to a friend of Pivot, my bro, about long COVID and more. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we'd have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists.

And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple.

We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack

presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Indecision, overthinking, second-guessing every choice you make. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige on beige on beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence.

Download Thumbtack today. Okay, George, we're back with our second big story. Snap Inc. is disappearing. The company says it will lay off 20% of its workforce, and that's around 1,200 people. They hired a lot during the pandemic. Snap also killed off its selfie drone, which I've got right here. I've got it right behind me, the Pixie. After just four months of launching it, I'm very excited to own it.

So were you ever on Snapchat? I'm having Evan Spiegel to code next week. I was on it for a day. I have an account. I used it for like a day, and I got bored. Because you had no friends? Well, story of my life. No, I didn't see, not that I didn't see the value of it.

Like we're communicating with cave paintings again. Like it's a more, it's another assault on words. From a writer's perspective, that kind of bothered me a little bit. But also, I don't know. I just, I couldn't, and it's not like I'm a Luddite. I love tech. I love TikTok. I love, you know, I loved Vine when that was a thing.

Like, I love all this stuff. Snapchat, I couldn't get into it. I tried. Couldn't get into it. You probably didn't have people using it. It was very, you know, my kids love it because they have all their friends on it. I was playing with, I was with my nieces and nephews. I mean, they were just like, you know, they're all about it.

And we did do some snapping back and forth. I understand the fun of it. But it struck me as something whose value would be short-lived. And not monetary value, but like entertainment value. Like this is fun, but like a toy that I'm going to get bored with after a while. Right, right. I think it's not designed for you. It's designed for kids.

So, you know, your nieces and nephews are still on it, correct? Right. You're still using it. Oh, yeah. And heavily. So are my kids are. And also it really did, you know, Twitter circles and Instagram's close friends are both similar to Snapchat's friends first model. Other apps have added disappearing messages like WhatsApp, Messenger and Instagram.

And of course, Snapchat invented stories and now everybody copies them. So they certainly have been a font of creativity for sure. I think it's just a difficulty is sustaining this as something beyond what it was. Also, they also lost two big executives for Netflix as it spins up its new ads based here. Snap is an ad-based company, and of course it suffered when ads went down. It did very well until it didn't. It was doing really well during the pandemic. And Netflix is going to need a bigger marquee.

It's releasing more than 40 films before the end of the year. That's more movies than all the big studios are sending to theaters in the same period. But theaters aren't going down with a fight. This Saturday, major chains including AMC and Regal are offering $3 tickets for National Cinema Day. You're a famous moviegoer. What do you think, first, of the ad tier at Netflix?

And would you avail yourself to that? And how do you look at them right now, given there's so many other streamers? And then movie theaters. You know, I have predicted that this is going to be a very small business. But you love going to the movies. I do. You like going to the movies. I do. You like going to the movies. I saw your pictures.

I go not very often. You went to the Maverick, the Top Gun Maverick premiere. Yes, but that was the premiere in London, and people were dressed up in Tom Cruise's hair. You had your sassy blue suit on. You were feeling cute. You looked hot. I know, but that was like once in a blue moon.

But didn't you enjoy that experience, being in a theater and seeing it on a big giant screen? I enjoyed seeing that movie in a big theater. I went to see Thor, which wasn't a very good movie, in a big theater. If it was good, I would have enjoyed seeing it there. I'm trying to think of a movie I'll see in the theater. A James Bond franchise movie, maybe? Yeah.

That's about it. There are some movies that are just conducive to that experience, right? Right. But you go to lots of movies, right? I do. You still believe in movie theaters. Well, I don't want to put it that way because I think they have a lot of reinventing to do

because it does, as much as my happy place is sitting in a theater with a bag of popcorn and ice cold soda and a bag of Twizzlers, watching something that's really great that takes me out of my life for two hours, like AMC, for example, which is the chain that I

visit most, they have a lot of work to do because there was a lot about their experience that sucks. Right. Yeah. Which is my point. And I want to bitch slap anybody getting a bonus because it's so undeserved. I don't know. I feel like no, listen, my kids don't go to the movie theaters. They watch everything streaming. They watch it on their phones often, which is interesting. I know movie makers hate that, but they do. Most movies aren't deserving of the $10 it costs. They just aren't. $10?

Oh, wait a minute. I don't even know. Again, I went free. I'm trying to remember the last thing I saw. I saw Nope, the new Jordan Peele, which was great. You did not see that on a plane or streaming. No. Nope is something you need on a big screen because it's the sky and it's UFOs.

That was very conducive to a big screen. And Jordan Peele is making such good movies. It's a pleasure. He is. He is indeed. The movie was, I went to see it in Dolby Cinema, which is not just Standard. And it's between Standard and IMAX. Right.

Okay. That ticket, I think, was like $23. $23? Yes, ma'am. And then the snacks, you know, my feed bucket of over-buttered, over-salted popcorn, and my keg of soda that has an undertow, and my bag of Twizzlers, and I'm almost $50 in. $50 in.

With one guy, and that's no dinner, no sex. Like, just the movie, ma'am. And that's a lot. It is. It is. So was it worth it? That's what I'm saying. It's not a big business.

And especially since the experience, if the seats aren't great, if the experience isn't frictionless, it is exactly the same as when I went when I was a kid. And it was better then because the popcorn I went when I was a kid. And it was better then because the popcorn was better. The things were cheaper. The seats were not better necessarily. Right. It's probably going to be limited because I do enjoy that experience. I mean, there is a part of me, I am a cinephile. I love movies. I am a purist. What kind do you go? You go to the old, old movies too. Now I can see going to old, old movies in a beautiful little theater. AMC 25 on 42nd Street used to do that.

They had the 25-screen multiplex. They still do. And on one of the smaller screens, they showed classics like Citizen Kane, Wizard of Oz. And I'm like, and then it went away

because people weren't into it. I love that shit. Right. I can see one theater in New York that shows. I mean, there is. There's the Film Forum. The Film Forum

and the Paris Theater between Bergdorf and the Plaza. Yes. Netflix owns that and renovated it and has done, speaking of Netflix, they did a beautiful job with that theater. Yeah. And they put in their movies in there, right? Not all the time, though. I like something they showed recently that is not in the Netflix streaming library.

So it's not exclusively their stuff. But yeah, they do when there's a Netflix original that they want to have, because I think you still have to have a theatrical release for Oscars. What do you spend your time doing more, going to theater or watching on a Netflix? Oh, definitely streaming more, for sure. There was a really great analyst for Puck that writes about it, and she was talking about that Netflix is making all these movies, and that they finally are 50% original content, which was their goal many, many years ago.

It feels like they're spreading it a little too thin. Well, that's what people think. Pull it back. Yeah. But they are at 50% original content. And eventually they will hit with a bunch of franchises, right? Whether it's Stranger Things or whatever it happens to be, just the way. But the other companies have had 50 years of this, of making franchises. And some work and some don't. The other part is, even though people

come for, say, Stranger Things, which is a big hit right now, the rehearsal, I think that's on Netflix, is a big thing. The rehearsal is HBO. HBO, is it? Whatever. They come for something fresh and new, whether it's HBO or Netflix or whatever. But people stay for re-watching the Marvel movies or old classics, like 9 to 5 or something like that. They come for one thing, like a new thing, but they stay, and that's where much of the movie, and that's what Netflix doesn't have because everyone pulled them, Friends, for example. And Netflix, in terms of batting average, in terms of, like,

let's say they put out 100 original shows or movies. Right. A fewer percentage of them are going to be really tentpole amazing ones. Whereas Apple or HBO seems to be, in terms of taste level and quality, seems to be a little more discerning. Really? You think so? Oh, definitely. Are you watching the Game of Thrones? I did watch the first one at Scott's, actually.

I was up there. We watched it. We had to have the boys leave the room a few times. Yeah, I bet. But I'll continue with it. You know, it's fine. But I love the morning show on Apple TV Plus and Severance. My God.

Yep. Very good. I think they're sort of a comer. I think they're the new HBO. Interestingly, though, Netflix has made Sandman and Echoes, which are two big hits right now. But that's my point. Like for every four good ones, there's like 30 pieces of shit that no one cares about. Yes, that is fair.

That is fair. That is fair. But I think old TV was like that. If you look through people's broad network television over the years, there's shows that you were like, come and gone, come and gone, come and gone. It's just that they're doing this in plain sight comparatively. But they're just burning money with these productions. And I'm glad that actors except me are getting work on their show. But it just seems like they're throwing a lot of money at stuff.

It's like, oh, yeah, here's a check. Okay, go make it. Like, is anybody having a creative meeting? Right, that's true. Although they have Never Have I Evers doing well. There's a whole bunch of them. It's a really mixed bag. And I think some of them are really quite amazing.

And some, like, you know, for example, on Netflix, they tried to make Space Force, didn't really work. The Ranch didn't work. But it is amazing the amount of content that's coming out. It really is astonishing. Which means theaters, you're fucked. I thank you very much. Sorry, is amazing the amount of content that's coming out. It really is astonishing. Which means theaters, you're fucked. Thank you very much. Sorry, that's the end of my thing.

Okay, George, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Dr. Jeffrey Swisher is the chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology at California Pacific Medical Center, a friend of the show and an even bigger honor for him, my brother. Jeffrey, we wanted to bring you on to discuss long COVID, especially George's long COVID and other things, and also to talk about monkeypox, whatever the heck you want to talk about. Last May, George wrote a post on his site detailing a mysterious series of panic attacks that begin in November, and he suspects maybe symptoms of long COVID. George, first tell us briefly what you experienced. I was starting in November of 2021 around Thanksgiving time.

I was in a Broadway theater. I was seeing To Kill a Mockingbird. And as the show started, I started to have a panic. What I later learned was a panic attack. I thought I was having a heart attack. And it went on for like about 30 to 40 minutes. I thought I'm going to be the one who is going to, they're going to stop the show for me. I'm leaving this theater in a stretcher. I was fine, as I said, after about 40 minutes, shaken, but fine. And then nothing for a couple of months. And then it happened again. And then I had a few more finally engage the medical community. And this was manifesting with panic attacks, a form of anxiety, heart palpitations.

I was exerting very easily. Like, I live on the eighth floor. Sometimes I would walk up just for the exercise. I was blown out by the third floor. Like, I couldn't get further than that. And you're very fit. You're quite fit. Yeah, I try to take care of myself.

And so something was awry. Oh, gosh, medical community, we love to throw pills at it. So I am on an antidepressant, Lexapro to be specific. I also have, oh, and I went to the emergency room because I had a heart, like the anxiety just went on for a whole day and was given Ativan for that, which I still carry with me. It's in my pocket right now. It's like a break glass in case of emergency kind of a thing.

I haven't needed it for some time. That's very common to do that. You know, both of my boys have panic attacks every now and then, and one of the things that we have them carry is an Ativan with them. Yeah, it's in my pocket right now. Yeah, it's a break-glass thing. But all of those symptoms that you're experiencing is what's known as the fight-or-flight response, right?

Actually, it's better known, I think, better fight-flight, freeze-or-faint response is an even better response for it. And it's all physiologic. And it's really due to a perception of some kind of threat that you are, you know, experiencing. And your brain, specifically when you experience the threat, the amygdala then sends a signal to the hypothalamus, which then sends a signal to the adrenal medulla to produce two hormones, adrenaline and noradrenaline, or epinephrine and norepinephrine, same thing. And that gives you all of the symptoms that you're

experiencing when you have this fight or flight response. And you think about it, I mean, humans have been having this for hundreds of 200,000 years for, you know, our current, and even before that, Homo erectus for 2 million years. We were prey, right? And so it's very important that when we develop this response, that all these physiologic responses, which we still have, cause these feelings that you have. So one of the things was that it was COVID-related. And there was just a news story this week about how much heart stuff and brain stuff around long COVID. Can you talk a little bit? Because I have a lot of friends with long COVID and one of my friends, they tremor inside.

Another one has heart just like with George. One other one who was a long distance runner is winded all the time really easily. Talk a little bit about long COVID. What are you seeing? You were practicing in San Francisco throughout the COVID epidemic. You finally got it yourself. I did. After in by traveling, which is interesting. Talk a little bit about long COVID, especially people who had COVID before the vaccinations, because that's where the real problem is, correct? Well, yeah. Well, I think even before, regardless of when you get COVID, I'm actually similar to George. I'm suffering some of the same effects of long COVID as well. I got it in early July when I was on a bike trip in Nova

Scotia. And I got very sick. I mean, surprisingly sick. I was concerned that I might have to go to the hospital. And I took Paxlovid and that got better. But still two months later, I'm still experiencing similar symptoms that George has. Shortness of breath when I climb stairs, a little feeling of panicky sometimes, you know. And, you know, the effects of long COVID are incredibly varied in people. I mean, they can range from exactly what George is describing to some people are developing inflammatory disorders. There's a few really scary side effects of long COVID, and it may have to do with the inflammatory effects that this virus has. The scariest effects are particularly vascular and potentially blood clotting. And some people, George, you sent me some things on Twitter the other day that was in, I forget where the link

was from. Financial Times, I think. Yeah, Financial Times. It was a layman's link, but it was quite good. And it just showed the increase in people who are having heart attacks, who are having strokes, who are having myocarditis and pericarditis, which is an inflammation of the heart, all since this COVID epidemic. And interestingly, I don't know if you noticed yesterday, but the lifespan of Americans has now decreased almost three years since the start of the COVID epidemic. Yeah. And this is all due to the secondary, not just dying of COVID itself,

but some of the secondary effects, which are strokes and heart attacks. Yeah, COVID was a driving cause for the change. U.S. life expectancy dropped to just over 76 years. It's the lowest it's been since 1996. And other countries did not suffer this. Well, we've had an incredible number of people who were infected from COVID. Plus, the population of our country is not the healthiest compared to a lot of other countries in terms of... And if you look at the other countries around the world, we don't have data from Russia. I don't believe we do. But countries that are similar to ours in terms of obesity and heart disease, etc., I think that you're going to see more of those effects. So what to do about this when you think about it?

You yourself are suffering. George is suffering. Everyone, of course, medical people. Mine's passing. Passing, right. What happens? Mine is too. But I'm concerned.

In fact, one of my colleagues who's a thoracic surgeon who had COVID very early on kind of surprised me. He asked me the other day whether I've had my legs scanned, ultrasound scanned for blood clots. And I didn't even think about it. But, you know, one of the things, when you had your stroke, for instance,

you know, 11 or almost 12 years ago, you know, it was due to a blood clot that traveled from your legs up to your heart. So COVID may predispose you to have these, you know, blood clots due to inflammation of the vascular system. And then, you know, you can develop strokes from it. People who haven't had a stroke, you mean? Yeah, people who have not had a stroke.

Oddly enough, I am the one person who hasn't had COVID, which is unusual. The one person who has blood clot problems. Which is more than just you, Kara, who have not had COVID. No, I know, but I'm saying among this group. I'm glad I didn't because I would worry even more. I attacked it. Jeffrey and I talked about this when we had our amazing bagels at Barney Greengrass. And by the way, can I just say, do you know, speaking of Scott? Yeah.

He got very upset by this relationship. Can you explain it to me? Well, let me just say that, I tell you, George, it's a magical moment, right? It was so magical. Oh, my God. I walked up to the west side and i you know i stood outside barney greengrass and i saw you there and you were a very handsome man by the way as are you sir as you know it's fine and you know you know i'm straight but i am not

narrow as they say and i was like oh my god this man is so handsome and so we sat there at that back table and we gave mission accomplished and i mean a guy came up to George during the thing, said, are you George Hahn? And I was like, oh my God, I'm with a celebrity. And, you know, it was just, but you know, the thing is it's really too bad Scott wasn't there. I mean, really, really too bad. Yeah, yeah.

It's a trouble. It would be a trouble. It really would be the hottest. All right, back to COVID. What are the implications of this going forward? Because they just announced another vaccine, right? Correct? Yeah, yeah.

It's what's known as a bivalent vaccine. And so a bivalent vaccine has the mRNA. Remember, these are mRNA vaccines. So what they do is they cause your body to produce the antigen, which then your immune response kicks up as a result of. And so the, this vaccine is a bivalent vaccine. And I, I personally waited to take this vaccine because it's going to have elements from the original SARS-CoV-2, which is, was like the

Delta variant and the current variant, the BA4, BA5 variant, which, which is what I had in probably, you know, it's a lot of people had, because it's much more infectious, this most, the most, a micron variant. It's known as... So should people take it? Should people take these things? Yeah, I mean, I think if you're, I think there's a couple things. The Financial Times article talks about this, about who should take this, you know, the vaccine. I think if you're high risk, you should, the vaccine. I think if you're high risk, you should definitely take it. If you haven't had a booster in, say, six months, you should take it. Very, I would say the high risk individuals, and I would include myself. I'm over

age 60. I have a pre-existing condition. So people like me should definitely take it. And so, yes, and I've been waiting for it. You should take it probably at least several months after you've had an active COVID infection, because, you know, your immune system will respond better to it. It'll give you a better antibody response to the vaccine. But people aren't taking vaccines now. They're putting people back in work with no COVID restrictions now. How do you look at that? You know, it's happening all over the place. I mean, I think that we're just like, you know, this virus, everybody says, oh, it's going away. And then it re-resurrects

again. And you can see the nature of it. The case rates just go up and down. It has to do with the time of the year. Are people going back inside for work? Are they going back to work, for instance? And so the more people are in a confined environment, the more we're going to see this vaccine. It's not going away at all. Right now, it's kind of a slow burn. We see the same. So is that more like the flu that you have every year or more like something else? Yeah, maybe. Maybe you might have to have it every year like the flu vaccine. You know, there's nothing to stop a new variant from emerging. So this current vaccine is going to deal with Omicron and prior, you know, COVID sort of antigens.

And so it'll give you more protection against a more infectious version of COVID, which is the Omicron variant. I went to Mount Sinai's post-COVID care center to get an assessment. Mount Sinai's post-COVID care center to get an assessment. And when I described all the symptoms that I had just run down for you guys, the woman just said to me, she's seen a lot of this. And I didn't feel like such a unicorn. And I just like, I was crying in her office. And by the time I was done with the appointment, I felt not alone and that I was not the only one. So I talk about this a lot on social media. I wrote about it because I wanted to sort of do my part in getting the word out that like this does happen and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm feeling better. There are other things that I've been

throwing at it. I've been meditating. I see a therapist now. I'm reengaging with exercise, basically taking care of myself. I quit smoking. I haven't had a cigarette in over six months because I thought it might have been triggered by that, this panicky feeling, even though it wasn't helping it, certainly. So I've made a lot of changes personally that may have contributed to a quicker recovery from it. I don't know. But there is, I guess their point at the Mount Sinai Care Center was, she said, this will pass. I'm starting to come out on the other side of it. And whether it's through just, you know, time.

She said to me at the COVID Care Center at Mount Sinai, it could be months, weeks, a year on the outside. For me, for me, it was, i would say about seven months yeah that's very typical i mean i think this is very common i'm hearing the story a lot um and uh you know this this long covid thing and it's real it's a real thing that we all need to be concerned about and i feel i feel normal i was nervous about going to nantucket to get on a plane oh really uh to see scott yeah um i thought i had I had the pills with me in my pocket and I had more in my bag. I didn't need any.

And that was a real sign to me that, okay, we're on the other side of this. Yeah, but many, many more people and more funding. You mentioned all the important things. I mean, get outside, fresh air, exercise, eat right, death smoking. You should not be smoking at all. Nobody should.

Yeah, nobody should. I mean, there's no benefit to smoking. Well, you get a nice little buzz when you take a huff. I have smoked once in my life a cigarette, sixth grade, behind a fence, one puff. That was the entire Kara Swisher, which is why my recent tests were excellent. I got in trouble in eighth grade, Kara. I got in trouble for smoking at a party with a bunch of my friends from eighth grade. They just socially ostracized me for like taking a puff on a cigarette.

I don't think I've had cigarettes since then. Yeah, we're not cigarette people. The Swishers are not cigarette people. Well, our dad was. No, he was. He smoked and my grandma used to go down in the basement and smoke, if you remember. Yes, she did. But let me ask you one last question, a couple last questions. So COVID aside, monkeypox.

Monkeypox. So monkeypox is, you know, it's, I think the name is scarier. I mean, well, it's a scary thing. Monkeypox is in the family of what are called orthopoxviruses. And it's very similar in a lot of ways to the smallpox virus. As you know, smallpox was eradicated. I think the World Health Organization declared it eradicated in, I think, 1980, and there hasn't been a case since. But monkeypox is in that class, or zoonotic viruses. It's from animals to people, and it developed in Africa, in the Congo. There's two different variations, what are called clades of this virus. And it basically is much more contact oriented than COVID is. And so individuals who get it are usually, it's often through sexual contact, but it can be, you know, kids can get it just from, you know, touching someone with a lesion. So the numbers have been alarming in terms of the numbers that

have gone up. So in August, I believe in August of this past year, there was like nine, almost 10,000 cases at the beginning of August. Now we're looking at almost 20,000 cases, and that's even in a month in this country. Worldwide, there's something like 50,000, a little over 50,000 cases as of the end of this month. So it's a pox virus. And so you get, you know, adenopathy, very painful swelling of your lymph nodes. You get flu-like symptoms. Often you feel very, very sick, people who have it. It's about a four to 10-day incubation period.

In the first phase, it's like the flu-like symptoms. In the second stage, you have eruptions of these pox lesions, which then scab over and eventually, like chicken pox, it goes away. It's not in the same family as chicken pox. That's a different class of viruses. But still, I mean, it's concerning. And there is a vaccine for it. In fact, there's two vaccines. One is the JYNNEOS vaccine, and the other is the vaccine that's used for smallpox. That's called ACAM2000. The latter is less common because it has more side effects. And it's also investigational for monkeypox. But the

Jeneas has been approved by the FDA for this. So should people take that? No. Well, there's limited quantities of it. I think if you're in a high-risk group, people who have frequent sexual partners and things like that, yeah, maybe. And also, you can get post-viral prophylaxis, but if you get it, you can get the vaccine afterwards, and that does afford you some protection and maybe even potentially shortens the problem. And this is something that'll work its way through the system, presumably. Yeah, I mean, but it's like all viruses. It's highly replicative. Personally, I've seen in my hospital maybe three or four cases of it.

I have not personally taken care of a patient with it, but they'll commonly come in for secondary infections. All right. George, any more questions for Dr. Swisher? Yeah. When can I go back to orgies? Well, you know, as I said on Twitter the other day, I'm personally getting tired of these Zoom orgies. Tell me about it.

I mean, I might have to go to Twitter circles, you know, just to hold myself over. I want to just say I was just in San Francisco for a series of tests related to my stroke. I'm not having a stroke. I'm just checking up on it. And Jeff was amazing. By the way, I have the body of a boring 20 year old. You have the colon of a 20 year old. That's amazing. You have the colon of someone who's never done anything fun. And the same thing with my heart. My heart has like no plaque, no arterial deterioration. Okay.

But let this be a lesson. Like I was reminded you just did this to everybody listening in a little public service announcement. Get checked out. I have an adult female in my life. She has never had a breast exam. I'm like, are you crazy? That's next month. Right.

Like, just like, check yourselves out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, Jeff, thank you so much. I'll see you soon. I'll see you at Code next week. Take care, George. I hope to see you soon. I'll see you at Code next week.

We'll talk soon. Bye. All right, George, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. George, we're back. Before we get to wins and fails, let's pivot to some listener mail. You've got, you've got. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail.

This mail comes from Andy. George, would you mind reading it? It would be my pleasure. I'm a huge fan of Pivot, but I'm bothered by Kara and guest hosts' consistent denigration of Scott's character, influence, and worth. Does the dog really deserve to be treated like so much dog shit? To be sure, Scott invites a certain amount of criticism with his outsized personality. Scott invites a certain amount of criticism with his outsized personality. But this is a man who has chosen to be more vulnerable about his own shortcomings and mental health issues than most public figures.

How about a little praise and generosity for a change? Andy from Somerville, Massachusetts. Sincerely. Sincerely. Andy, the whole show is about teasing Scott. You do understand that, correct? Yeah. I mean, really. Someone from Vox one time said, you know, I think Scott's a little offensive. I don't know if this is going to work. And I was like, no, that's the point. Scott is offensive.

I hit him. He says something amazing. And then he says something offensive. And then I hit him again. I said, that's the show. We're in, we're out, we're done. We love Scott's vulnerability. We love him criticizing himself. We love his outsized personality. But of course, that opens himself up for criticism and stuff like that, which is the point. The point is the ability to disagree on a very civil level. We don't make fun of him. Like, we don't ridiculously tease him.

We do make fun of going, Scott, free August. It's funny. So I think it's, I don't, I don't make fun of him. We don't ridiculously tease him. We do make fun of going scot-free August. It's funny. So I don't agree with you. I don't think we do treat him like dog shit. I think he invites that in lots of ways. And we think he's incredibly prescient. I think he's very smart about when he's wrong. He actually then tries to learn from it, which is not many people do. They just sort of move along from their stupid, stupid statements. He like examines them. I love when he talks about his mental health challenges and, you know, the difficulties he's had over the many years with his family or whatever it happens to be or working. And I love that he shows his emotionality. You don't see that a lot from a straight guy. Like you just don't, in terms of how he processes his very lucky life and at the same

time expresses regrets and he expresses unease and things like that. And I think it's one of his great strengths. I don't know. What about you? I agree with everything you just said. I think Scott is like a thinking person's Joe Rogan. Ah, interesting. I hope it's just a matter of time before Scott has an audience on that scale because I think he's got so many more worthwhile things to say. And also,

on a personal note, in this weird time that I'm in, you know, with the social media notoriety or whatever it is that I've got right now

and so many people have said to me, oh, you should have your own show, you should be working on this, you should do this, you should do that. The only person, and I could actually see myself getting emotional about this,

the only person who has said to me, you've got something I want, or you've got something really good going on. I want to bring you onto my team, and I want to give you a gig, and I want to pay you for it nicely because I think you're good at what you do. The only person who has done that is Scott. Yep, that's correct. And he will always have my gratitude and my loyalty because he is the only one who doesn't just say, oh, you're talented. He also said, oh, you're talented.

I want you on my team. And here's a job. And here's a job. He's the only one who gave me a job. 100%. I mean, he does pay it forward. Listen, when I started Pivot, there were a lot of choices. And Scott was the only one, really, in lots of ways.

I didn't think about anybody else at the time because I really thought it was important, one, to disagree with civility and funny and be funny about it. It's always civil. You guys are like siblings and it's beautiful. But also to have real disagreements and not agree agree whether it's over Dr. Oz or whatever. I mean, he gets very touchy about that particular subject, for example, but we still discuss it. And that's what's really important. So I don't think it's treating like dog shit. I don't think we tease him. We tease him and you're going to have to get used to it. This is the family we have.

He's good for it too. That's right. And so one of the things that's important is to be able to tease and also be able to express yourself in a relatively, and I don't say a safe space, but he is able, because it's very public, talking about his shortcomings and his mistakes. And when he's hurt, one of the things that drives me crazy,

and let me just say, he gets like a lot of shit for some really assholes in silicon valley like a lot if you don't think i go after them rather significantly for doing that because it's such ridiculous bullshit because they themselves make mistakes all the time they themselves have lots of problems and never would admit it and i think that's why he's much more powerful than in the end so i don't agree with you i don't think we do i think we tease him and we're by the way we're going to keep teasing him uh all kinds of things. And he deserves it. Every single fucking bit of it. If you've got a

question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, George, let's hear some wins and fails. Let's talk about a fail first because I want to end on a high note. I would say the fail, And fails. Let's talk about a fail first because I want to end on a high note. I would say the fail, Sarah Palin. Like in general, I would say the Republicans and the stupidity that she enabled and ushered in as the VP candidate in 2008. Like she made it okay. Like she made stupid okay.

Stupid okay. And I think in some weird way, she is kind of – the validation of her stupidity enabled the possibility of Trump. Yeah, she was the first. Well, there's been others. Newt Gingrich really started it. She is the patron saint of our Marjorie Taylor Greene's and our Lauren Boebert's and our Jim Jordan's. And she lost. And that really turns me on. I'm really happy she failed. It was still closer than I'd want it to be. But this has been a state that's been

Republican forever. They put this ranked choice voting in in order to stop Lisa Murkowski. The Trump people did put it in and now they're complaining about it. They're the ones that put in this voting, which caused her to lose because people voted for this very progressive woman who's fascinating, who seems very into fish, by the way, which I think is important to Alaska. And so they had a very decent candidate who's a very typical Republican who Sarah Palin beat, which means the dumbs, you know, have enough people to get her there. And that's, we'll see if it happens across the country. If this is the case, where Sarah Palin-like characters in lots of state senate races lose.

Yeah. Like a Herschel Walker. In a way, I would like to see if the entire GOP is in a bit of a fail spiral that has yet to manifest. Starting with Kansas, and then we've got this very, like, a Democrat in Alaska. Yeah. And a woman, like, you know, maybe this is a sign. So we'll see. She is concerned with fish.

I think that's put her over the top. Anyway, I will second my fail, and then we'll go into wins, is there's a new report out. The National Assessment Educational Project, which is the nation's report card, math scores dropped seven points since the start of the pandemic, marking the first ever decline, while reading scores slipped five points. It's the largest dip in 30 years because of that. It's not we're trying to be dumb, but the pandemic, along with people like Sarah Bailey and stuff like that, has created a real deficit in learning. So it's something we have to get back to. Smart should be sexy, again. Smart is sexy. Smart is sexy, but we should really think hard about becoming stupider and not do so. Also, don't you think, like, I'm not really on board

with this notion of I want my leaders to be someone I can have a beer with. I want my leaders to make, to give me something to which to aspire. Right, right. This is two decades of progress in math and reading, which is really because kids aren't in schools. They were testing nine-year-old school children. The basics are not there, and we have to. If we're going to compete worldwide, it has to happen. All right, what's your plus?

I'm not saying this is an endorsement that I want him to run again or something, but Joe Biden, you know, Papa Joe's on a roll here. And we've had some nice wins here. This is a nice streak. This is sexy. And this is stuff to brag about. This is stuff to, if that's one thing Democrats are not good at, let's all get on the same page here.

Let's brag about this. Yeah. And also in your face. Yes. I'm loving the new White House Twitter person. She's from New Jersey, the person who's doing it. Delicious. Yeah.

She's very, she's very good. That is gorgeous Twitter. Yeah, it is. Whether it matters or not, I don't know, but I like it. It's a point of view. It's a good look. That's a very good one. My win is a nuclear inspectors arriving at the plant in Ukraine. I can't believe they've gotten this close with a nuclear facility that they're doing

shelling all around this area. It's a real, it's a danger to the whole world. And so I'm glad these inspectors are there and what a job they have to do because this is an embattled nuclear plant, which those words should not ever go together. They braved intensified shelling. They're in danger and they're crossing front lines and they need to. Russia's playing games like this is just ridiculous, just ridiculous. So they have to guard nuclear safety. And so the International Atomic Energy Agency is there working on it. So thank God for that. That's what I would say. Nice.

That was me, my plus. Yeah, that's my win. But my win really is you, George, as always. Kara, you're my win. And by the way, for people who say, you know, people often say, oh, you know, Kara, she's not a hugger. She's, you know, she's a little tough. Not in my experience. Well, that's because you're George Hahn. Why wouldn't I not hug you? Right. You're very huggable.

If you're huggable, I hug you. If you're not, I really, really don't. All right. That's the show. Scott will be back with us next week. In one week, we're spending Labor Day getting ready for Code, which is an astonishing group of people coming. So Tuesday, you'll get a special episode of Land of the Giants from our friends over at Recode and The Verge. This season is covering Facebook's journey to becoming meta.

George, would you do the honors and read us out? Be delighted. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ben Woods engineered this episode. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back on Friday for another breakdown of all things tech and business from code.