Pivot - Trumps Venezuela Oil Gambit Ice Shooting Fallout And Warner Bros Says No Again

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Kara welcomes Audie Cornish and Bill Cohan to unpack President Trump's controversial Venezuela strategy, and his pitch to oil executives. Bill reveals what he'd tell any client eyeing Greenland as an investment. Then: the fatal ICE shooting in Minnesota that's sparking national outrage, why Warner Bros. just rejected another Paramount buyout offer, and how Grok managed to sink even lower. Check out more from Audie on “CNN This Morning, and the podcast, “The Assignment.” Find more from Bill on Puck. Watch this episode on the ⁠⁠Pivot YouTube channel⁠⁠. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcastofficial⁠⁠. Follow us on Bluesky at ⁠⁠@pivotpod.bsky.social⁠⁠ Follow us on TikTok at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcast⁠⁠. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Support for this show comes from Vanta. Vanta uses AI and automation to get you compliant fast. Simplify your audit process and unblocked deals so you can prove to customers that you, take security seriously. You can think of Vanta as you're always on AI-powered security expert, who scales with you. That's why top startups like Cursor, Linear, and Replit use Vanta to get and stay secure. Get started at vanta.com slash Vox. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Vox. Vanta.com slash Vox. What I mean is if a client came to you and said, I want to buy Greenland, what would be the thing as an

investment banker you would do. I want to buy Greenland. Are you out of your fucking mind? Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway continues to be under the weather. So I brought in two more amazing co-hosts. We've got Audie Cornish host of CNN this morning and the podcast, The Assignment. And Bill Cohen, one of my favorite people to talk about business because there's a lot going on there, author and founding partner of Puck. Welcome, Audie, and Bill. Hey, great to be here. So I had nothing to do with Scott's disappearance. It's not that I haven't wanted to be on the show a lot. Like, I've been waiting with this quarter zip just so that I could be a part of the dialogue. A quarter zip. I did. I was like,

are we talking business? Yeah, yes. No. So I'm sure Scott's fine. I didn't do anything to him at all. No, okay. All right. You were trying. Yes, that would be a really good show. Yeah. body trying to take down the co-hose. Like an anti-carrican situation? Yeah. Do you have your quarter-zip on, Bill? I do, but I don't have a Warner Brothers Discovery Quarter-Zip, which I really like.

I wore that just for you. I really like that. I got this from David Zeslaw. Himself? I technically did as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he gives him out. He dresses, I'm going to say this, honestly.

He dresses, I told him he dressed like a lesbian, and he said me this. Only lesbians can say that. I opt out. I unsubscribe. Unsubscribe. But yes, it's actually a fantastic vest. You look great in it. Thank you.

It's really comfortable, and I wear it all the time. And my son this morning said, oh, that's the Scooby-Doo people. So I guess. That is of all the things. Of all the things. That's such a for now anyway. It's just so random. Yes, exactly.

We're going to talk about that. And I really enjoyed your stuff, Bill. But anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. So we're going to dig in. There's a lot of news. And the first one, obviously, is the fatal. shooting of a 37-year-old woman in her car by an ice agent in Minneapolis, and sparking national outrage and protests again. The woman, Renee Nicole Good, was a U.S. citizen,

a mother of three, and a poet. She was not under any kind of investigation, according to law enforcement officials. Homeland Security Secretary Christine Nome said Good was, quote, stalking officers in attempting an act of domestic terrorism. What a heinous person she is. Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry called that bullshit and told ICE to, quote, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. President Trump weighed in on true social and once again blamed the radical left. He did an interview just where the reporters from New York Times showed it to him. And he sort of walked it back, but he didn't precisely.

And of course, they're doubling down. Tom Holman for a second was reasonable. And he got the memo that they're supposed to call this woman a radical. terrorists. I want to get both your takes here, but first, let me share Scott Galloway's thoughts on this, which he texted me last night. I'm horrified. History shows politics becomes a blood sport, and nation's light begins to flicker. DEM, Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro should announce candidacy this week and say, if elected, we are going to have the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. There needs to be a reckoning to starch the stain of corruption, insurrection, and bigotry.

Dems are such fucking wimps. That was from Scott. But the words of Scott Galloway, ladies and gentlemen, from his sick bed. Audie, I'll start with you. What do you make of what we're seeing? You reported on it all morning on your show on CNN, your morning show. So talk a little bit about, and you've covered this kind of stuff many times. I have. And, I mean, talk about grim.

Like, I think this woman had dropped her kid off at school, like a six-year-old. And so many people right now, wherever they fall on the political spectrum, feel a kind of helplessness. Like, wait a second, am I really where I thought the country would be? And so if you're one of those people and you decide, well, I'm going to go out somewhere, I'm going to do something, I'm going to be present. To protest. Yeah, protest. And I'm not saying she definitely was protesting.

But just the idea that you are in mortal danger now in these scenarios, I think, is pretty terrifying. Also, the setting, it being Minneapolis, it being this many years after the death of George Floyd, it being in a place where protests went for a very long time, and in fact other protesters were killed, like it can spin out into something else. And then lastly, the fact that this whole operation, you know, almost 90%, I think 87% of the Somalis in the state are naturalized citizens, right?

They are legal. So now you are really trying to find one and two, three people and you have a city that is prepared. You'll look on your TVs in the next day or two and see some protesters wearing their gas masks already because they have seen this movie before a kind of militarized response from law enforcement. So can I ask you one other question? The response from the Trump administration immediately was trying to spin it. Of course, Christy Nome put on whatever hat she had that day and started to spew lies. And then the videos, all of them were very much different, including Fox News commentators commenting on, well, she was turning away from the ice person.

Yeah. You know, she was trying to hit him. She's obviously dropped her kid off from school. I know. There's very little known. I mean, look, if there's one thing we know how to do as Americans is scrutinize a video of a law enforcement involved killing. I think we had a fair amount of practice at that. We have not had practice doing that with a white mother, you know, of a couple kids. And I think this. has looked very shocking for people and familiar in ways that feel very sort of dark. The administration's whole stance on this entire process has been always double down, always triple down, never give any ground because they feel they have not just some kind of moral authority. They'll evoke this mandate. You hear over and over on these cable news panels. This is what people voted for.

I'll just wrap up by saying, we don't matter. what the TV news says or commentators. People have eyes and they have social media. And I have watched all of these ICE enforcements and arrests and protests on social media where people offer their own commentary. And I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think. They want to think it's a Democratic governor somewhere saying something that's rhetoric that make people say F ICE.

Check the hashtag. You know, it's not run, certainly. any Democratic messaging operation. Right, right. So, Bill, I want to bring this, one of the things that I'm watching, though, is a lot of suddenly business people, well-known people,

the head of the guy who runs Jeopardy spoke up, right? And I just was noticing Paul Graham, who I think you know, he was the head of Y Combinator, wrote, ICE just shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis, a U.S. citizen, how long before we say enough is enough. Elon Musk responded, she tried to run people over,

and Paul wrote back, and Paul, I wouldn't call him a liberal, by, in fact, he's somewhat irritating on many levels. No, she didn't. Here's the evidence. She's turning the wheel, the front wheels of the car to the right away from the ICE officer on her left. She was trying to run him over. Why would she turn in the other direction?

Do you think, Bill, because a lot of the, you haven't heard, you know, word one from any tech people on any of this or any business people on this stuff? Yeah, I think we may be reaching a tipping point on that to use a phrase that a lot of business. people can understand. I think this is obviously the inevitable outcome of the wider Stephen Miller agenda, which is heinous in almost every respect. And you know, and you'll have to remember that Stephen Miller's grandparents were immigrants. And if his policies were in place for them, you know, maybe they never would have come to this country. He wouldn't even be here, which might be a better thing. I don't know. Grocking, Stephen Miller, will be a year's, a decades-long thing for future historians.

Absolutely. I mean, this guy is completely out of control. Witness the interview he gave to Jake Tapper the other day, which happened to be about Venezuela, but the same sort of arrogance and hubris applies here. So, I mean, these situations are powder kegs, you know, bringing in highly militarized, you know, ICE officers into neighborhoods and rounding up people who should never be rounded up. You know, it seems so un-American to me. I don't think this is what we voted for at all.

But why have businesses remain largely silent? Because, you know, it didn't. It doesn't affect that during George Floyd. Well, I mean, first of all, that seems like a lifetime ago, you know, the reaction to George Floyd. I mean, people have whatever gotten with the program. I remember having a dinner a few months ago with the CEO of a tech company, Kara, who you probably know well, who I asked this exact thing, why are you not speaking up more profoundly about what's going on here?

No, because it doesn't affect my business. What affects my business is, you know, my shareholders, my creditors, my employees. You know, this doesn't affect what Donald Trump is doing, what the regime is doing, doesn't affect me. It's not my business. I'm going to stay out of it. even though it's totally reprehensible and that these people should be speaking up. I mean, why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?

FU. Yep. Yep, absolutely. I mean, it'll be interesting. Last thing, where do you imagine this going now with these videos? Will they continue to double down? What is the... Because, of course, it takes away from their Venezuela capers, which we'll get to in a second. It takes away from their Greenland capers. I'll be honest, it depends on what happens next. I mean, you'll notice my eyes are kind of going like this every few minutes is because, right, now, there is this kind of images of what looks like a standoff and between protesters who are like linking arms. And then you have, this is the state of the country we're in right now, I'm like, are these National Guard, are these police, are these ICE police? Like, who am I

even looking at? And is this even how you do crowd control? Is this how you enforce things? And I just want to add one more thing here, the ramp up that we are witnessing of this law enforcement agency that is not structured the way the others are. It's unaccountable. It's unaccountable in such profound ways. And I think that I will be very curious if people feel like they voted for that. Because when I hear the Manosphere and the podcast bros kind of be like, I don't know, man, and I don't know if you should be. I can't believe they're doing this. I can't believe they're doing that. To me, that's now reached the stage where the average person does not perceive this as just a mass of criminals. I do think that horses left the barn. It's now do they think that what's being

grown in their name that they as voters should step in and somehow try and stop it or make their displeasure known. Which they are, have been doing. I mean, Gestapo wasn't what we voted for, I guess. Can I just add one thing? I mean, I just think we're living through an era of unaccountability. There's no accountability for ICE. There's no accountability for Venezuela. There's no accountability for ripping down the east wing of the White House. There's no accountability for re-describing what happened on January 6th on the White House website. I mean, every day, there's an example of bad behavior that would normally be unacceptable in my lifetime. It would be completely unacceptable for our politicians to act this way, and yet they do it with impunity, and there's never any

accountability. But there is a lever just no one's pulling it. I mean, I hear Scott talk like this all the time, but the business community seems to have walked away from the awokening, and a bunch of them went, that really went too far, don't you think? And so they don't give a shit. Like, honestly, I genuinely feel like they are going on yachts and building up fortresses for themselves, and they no longer feel actually engaged with the country in a lot of ways. And I don't say this as some like raving liberal. I'm just like, they are absent. They don't yank funding from things. They don't yet advertising from things. They go to every dinner they have at the White House. Like, I don't know what the business community does now. Well, I think they do, I think they do give a shit. I think that

they prefer not to be the nail that sticks up that gets this madman's attention and then puts them in the crosshairs and they have to deal with some, you know, analogous event that that they didn't want to have to deal with because they spoke up. So I think they do care, but. Renee Good took a risk. Billionaires won't. And I'm confused. Yeah.

All right. Well, that's a good point. That's why I say if you've got a few money, why aren't you use it? Yep. Yep. I have to say, I'm with audio on this one. It's like they could. This is not hard.

None of this is particularly hard. And it doesn't affect your. Midterms are coming up. You can throw around all your free amendment money, you know, First Amendment money then. Will they? I'm not holding my breath. Well, all right. So, and now to the latest with Venezuela.

Here are some of the highlights of the story since our last episode. President Trump will meet with oil industry executives on Friday at the White House after saying the U.S. may subsidize the company's efforts to rebuild in Venezuela. In other words, the taxpayer will pay for it, which he estimated would take 18 months.

Probably just made that up. On Wednesday, President Trump said U.S. control of Venezuela could last for years. The president has withdrawn the U.S. from 66 international organizations and treaties, including climate groups. The U.S. sees two oil tankers, including a Russian flagged vessel linked to Venezuela in the North Atlantic. The national security leaders have said the administration does not plan to use ground troops in Venezuela. And of course, in related news, the U.S. is

actively discussing a potential offer to buy Greenland and hasn't ruled out military action. I mean, they're not just murdering U.S. citizens. They're very busy on other things. So, Bill, start, how do you suspect these oil executives be responding? in this meeting because it's a dicey situation for them no matter what. And the price of oil, of course, is not as high as they'd like it to be. Right. So how do you respond to this rampant imperialism? If you're a CEO of an oil company that might or might not benefit from this imperialism, I think that the economics of the situation do not necessarily lend itself to these companies wanting to go in there. It's going to take billions of dollars to a pair of

fix up the refineries. Which they also had lost previously, right? They had lost, whatever. In the previous. Sunk money, different companies, whatever. You know, okay, so you give them a heads up early that you're doing this because he loves to court their favor. But I don't think this is nearly going to be nearly as smooth and as easy.

It never is, first of all. Look what happened in Iraq. That was supposed to be over in 10 days, right? And good for oil companies. Similar words. Right. Similar words. didn't work out that way, and I don't see this working out that way either. But besides

Kara, we are net exporters of oil now. Why do we need more oil from Venezuela? I mean, this is just this crazy, hubristic, ugly American behavior that I thought we would have learned from over the decades of doing similar things, especially in Latin America. And I'm not, I mean, obviously, if you're the CEO of one of these oil companies, you get invited to the White House by a madman, you know, you go and you listen to what he has to say. But I think as an economic matter, it's going to take a long time before they, you know, raise their hands and say, oh, yes, me too. I want to get in here and, you know, extract this oil. Even if they get a freebie from taxpayers, if he's able to do that at all, right? Which is a question. Yeah, we don't know the

mechanisms about how this will work. Also, Bill, I was wondering, in the era of this kind of Trump administration transactional foreign policy, and transactional business policy. Everything's a transaction. Yeah, so you can't do a no-strings-attached situation with the Trump administration, even as an oil company, I would think, right? Like if they're going to not, like even Navidia has to give a slice. So like, why wouldn't you?

And are companies starting to be wary about that? Totally. I mean, he said he's going to, you know, seize the oil that has apparently been, you know, hours and locked up, apparently, and he's going to sell it on the market and control the proceeds of that sale. I mean, he's got his fingers and all these pies. It's this ultimate grift. You know, the Center for American Progress has got a website now that tracks the grift. It's nearly $2 billion since January since he was inaugurated. This is another part of the grift. And I'm always very concerned about, you know, you have these big exogenous events, you know, like going into Venezuela

or what happened in Minneapolis. What are they doing? What are they trying to deflect from, all right? Is it the rewriting of January 6th? Is it Jeffrey Epstein? Is it, you know, graft? I mean, taking down the east wing of the White House, the $400 million ballroom. I mean, what kind of crazy thing is he trying to distract us from?

It's Wag the Dog. It's Orwellian. And, you know, we're just, again, there's no accountability for any of this. So if you're an oil executive going to that meeting, I have talked to two of them. And they're like, this is not good for us, the price of oil. You know, I mean, economically, it's kind of insane on some. Why are you going to invest billions of dollars trying to extract oil in Venezuela when we're already net exporters of oil? I don't understand that.

In an easier situation. in an easier situation. I mean, the potential there is huge, right? Like, they're sitting on the reserve. It's just, does this administration have the attention span? Is the country willing to do what it takes to secure a long-term investment? I mean, no one has the appetite for a very long list of things for the reasons you guys, everyone has said, which is like the ghost of Iraq and that whole conversation just haunt this foreign policy.

And Chile. and so many others. I mean, why are we, I mean, what if the reverse situation were happening? I mean, honestly, what if Venezuela came in, kidnapped Trump and Melania, took them off in Venezuela, and then started saying,

okay, now we own Exxon, Chevron, you know, and all the Conoco and all the other oil companies, and we're just going to extract all the oil because we want to. I mean, I have to, Kara, I want to raise something with you and give your point of view, which is that there's a lot of people who would say, all the Trump people really do is overt versions of things that the U.S. has always done covertly. So the long list of Latin American regime change and interventions, I'm just going to pick a date and go back to like 51 or something.

Now the only difference is they just do it, right? And instead of us playing this like absurd game with Donald Rumsfeld about oil and whether it's the oil and whether it's not. And then Jim Baker is like, oh, it's definitely, I mean, just nonsense. Now we just have people saying the thing. They're saying it's oil. Yeah. And like, is there something to be said for a, like, you're addressing everything more directly? And number two, what is for Democrats, what's their response?

What are you going to tell a Venezuelan expat? Like, well, we really want that dictator to stay because we don't like the way they're doing this. As many people want it, Maduro is an autocrat and a very tyrannical one, right? It's not like, I think his own people knifed him in the back. that's my take on the whole thing is Delsey who looks harmless but is not in any way. She was head of the intelligence.

That's correct. Department at one point and she was head of the oil. Like that regime is still there. They're violent. They're repressive. They're turning on each other. If you're a Democrat, do you just say,

but actually he needs to come to Congress appropriation something, something. When you have all these people in the country saying, we needed the help. Maybe this, maybe we want to thank Trump for doing this thing. They do. I mean, but it's hardly

pointful. He's not, he's not the president of Venezuela, so who cares? It's not his job to help them. I think a lot of Venezuela in Florida do. Like I think... Yes, expats who have left, right?

There are a very different group of people and people. I just did a long podcast with some historian, David Sanger, and some others about this. And one of the things that was interesting to me was that there's a real rift between the people who,

25% of the population left and the people who are there. And, you know, there's a whole, Again, not our country. Yeah, but we saw this with the Cuban community. And the Cuban Republican community, right? Like, Democrats lost that community for decades after.

And now the Secretary of State is basically the product of that political lineage. Right, exactly, which is why they're focusing on Cuba next. But one of the things is I think, criming in plain sight is what you're asking about. They're criming in plain sight. I do think there are one of the things, the response was in that no one's ever done this. I'm like, hold my beer. Yes, they did. Panama.

Yes, they did. Haiti. Yes, we did. Iraq, Iran. Like, Chile. Like, yes, we did. And except what Donald Trump is doing is not saying, oh, it's a democracy thing. Oh, it's because of this.

Or it's because he's just saying, yeah, it's the oil. And then you have Howard Lutnik, who seems to be in a bathroom piping up out of minerals. Like, like, I don't think. And I think actually the Trump administration has made. when people point to his grift, they go, well, he's doing it transparently. So criming in plain sight is better, and it's on a scale that's unprecedented. That's really the more interesting part of it. But it's still stupid.

Like, I don't know what else to say. It's stupid, as Bill pointed out, because of the price of oil is going to come down, crashing down, presumably. Right. I mean, did he really think this through? I mean, you know, the oil executives will go to this meeting, but to get them to invest billions of dollars to, refine or get that oil out of the ground and sell it into a market where the price of oil is low,

relatively speaking, and we're already net exporters of oil. Why are they going to do that? I mean, did he think that through? Yeah. And where you can't even get a guarantee from the government that they'll secure the workforce that would do this? I mean, there's been, there is no day two. And why are we invading another country kidnapping their president so we can take their natural resources? again, if the shoe were on the other foot, I think there might be a little bit of an outrage. But that's sort of the old if Obama did this, where it's sort of way beyond if Obama did this kind of thing.

But in related news, speaking of which, speaking of minerals and things we want there and strategically indeed important place, Greenland. Now, what I understand from this panel I did, we can go to Greenland right now and put as many bases on it as we want. We could put 300 bases. We had 16, 17 bases there. We closed 16 of them.

So we have every right to be in Greenland from a 1950s treaty. So we don't even have to. 50, like, we don't have to do anything. We can just open all those things and like squat. I guess squat in Greenland. I think that's the way. I think that's the technical term for it. So what happens, but it has created this NATO crisis,

existential crisis, especially if he does something with the military rather than just offer to buy it. Thoughts, first, Audie, then Bill. Oh, no, I want to hear Bill first. Bill. Economically, is it a good deal? Look, he doesn't care, as he's proven for years, doesn't care about NATO. So if he's provoking confrontation with NATO in a way to get out of NATO, okay, fine. or maybe it's bluster, I mean, do we need to buy Greenland?

As you said, we can do already or allowed to do it. We want. It's just another example of this crazy, wacky, imperialistic behavior that is so unbecoming, and you would think that we would have learned from our past mistakes in this area, and it makes people hate us and resent us, which is part of the reason we got a 9-11 situation, is that hate and resentment around the world. and he's fomenting it without any accountability. And to what end?

I mean, again, if there's a treaty that says we can already put bases there and we haven't done it, well, why not just do that? Why are we provoking a confrontation with one of our best allies? I think he wants to expand. He wants to be the first U.S. president to expand territory since whoever it was. That is, to me, the absolute reason. So he wants to do his version of Louisiana Purchase, does he? Yes.

Yeah. Well, he wants his face on Mount Rushmore. He wants his face on the coins. He's building his $400 million ballroom. I mean, this guy. Never going to get built. I'm just telling you. Really?

That's news. My thoughts is that, you know, I think it's baffling for all of us because he tends to, first of all, his ideas of foreign policy are often frozen in particular vintage, right? It's like he really does just care a lot about tariffs. He thinks that's the way to do it. And so tariffs it is, you know, resources and transactional, I think Google called it transactional predation of resources. He sees himself as doing like what China is doing or something like that.

Now, of course, it's very different. It's very, very different. And it's often, as you mentioned, Bill, undermining our allies. And I think that it is very difficult to watch in real time. the post-World War II world order and systems be not just chipped away, but kind of kicked in the knee. And maybe like retirement, yeah, maybe like retirement, it was always a myth, you know, like maybe it was never going to last more than 50 to 80 years. But we are witnessing the falling apart of something. That doesn't mean that something else can't be rebuilt in its place.

But for sure, I think that it might be baffling to the average person because you're like, why are we suddenly talking about Greenland? And you can say that almost every week. Why are we talking about X? Why are we talking about Z? Let me just add in one of the, Greenland certainly is a strategic and there are minerals to be had, whatever, that kind of stuff. Under a lot of ice.

Under a lot of ice. By the way, Greenland isn't green and Iceland isn't ice. I would like to point that out. Thank you for that. Anytime. Anytime. But to me, the best economic thing to do from a business point of view is to help Ukraine because that is a country if it was renovated. They have high technical expertise. We would,

speaking of U.S. benefiting economically, that's our best economic bet to get. That's like the one thing we won't do, right? It's like we're doing everything but we won't do, which is shove the Russians out and create a very vibrant technologically forward. We would make a lot of bank there versus a Greenland or Venezuela or anywhere else. To me, if that's your criteria is what's the best deal, to me, Ukraine is the best deal if you're just going to be that venal of economic. Can I raise one more thing that's sort of baffling to me? You have a generation of Republicans in Maga World, whatever, who were against the forever wars. You have Navy SEALs in Congress now, lawmakers. They're there because they were against Forever Wars. They were against our actions abroad and interventions and they

hate the neocons and they're kicking dirt over Dick Janie's grave. And I don't understand them right now. I don't know if this is going to be like the fiscal hawks who just sort of like squirm away, you know, and don't say anything about what he's doing. But when it comes to foreign policy, the far right that is against interventionism has lost on every single argument, like whether it's Iran, whether it's whatever, like he doesn't care what they think about that. You see green talking, there are people, there are people, Green has been talking about it, massive. But it's like leaving, give zero F anyway, like Rand Paul. I mean, it's sort of the same handful of people. And I legit, it's like Lindsay Graham has gotten his wings again. And all those

people who allegedly didn't want intervention are oddly silent in these moments. Bill, last question here. Is there any economic goodness to this? Of trying to buy Greenland? I mean, again, first of all, it's so unattractive the way he's going about it and doing what he's doing. Are there economic benefits? There might be, Kara. How the hell are we going to know?

I mean, how do we know right now whether there might be economic benefits? What I mean is if a client came to you and said, I want to. to buy Greenland? What would be the thing as an investment bank? I want to buy Greenland? Are you out of your fucking mind? Oh, okay. Are we going to piss off one of our best allies to try to obtain this, you know, block of ice, you know, that may have strategic value? And if it's like strategic defensive value, we are, as you said, we already have the right to put bases up there. Why did we close 16 of the 17? Let's open them again or whatever it is. If it's, if it's like

controlling the Arctic and being, having a policy matter and a national defense issue, You know, okay, I get that. I get that. But what, you want to mine for minerals under a mile of ice? Yeah, that might work maybe, you know, with global warming. Of course, that's not an issue anymore. We're not, we're not warming up anymore, apparently. So it's going to be like many millennium before we get under that ice. I don't think you ever spoke to a client like that. Oh, I, that's the way I would speak to them now. One thing, Bill, I think there's so much foreign policy action that I think when you look at, say, the Abraham Accords for the Trump administration, they feel like. Like, if you can get people doing business together, that inherently creates the environment for peaceful interaction. That the money is what is going to make those things work, not arbitrary red lines in diplomatic conference rooms. And I guess I just want your opinion. Maybe, but so far it's just been a graft for the Trump administration and the Trump family. It's all been about graft. It hasn't been about opening up really.

Well, technically grift. but graft too. All right, when we get, we're going to take a quick break. We'll come back. I may have coined a new term. Bills, bills and my favorite topic, Warner Brothers rebuffs. Paramount, again, no surprise. This podcast is brought to you by Netflix presenting Jay Kelly, co-written by Noah Bomback and Emily Mortimer. Golden Globe nominee George Clooney stars as Jay Kelly, a famous movie actor on a journey of self-discovery as he reflects on his career and the relationships with his father, his daughters and his devoted team led by his manager played by Golden Globe nominee Adam Sandler. The LA Times raves. It's a fully formed knockout and the Wall Street Journal hails Jay Kelly,

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Go to O-L-L-L-Y.com to choose your snooze. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I'm back with Audie Cornish and Bill Cohen. Warner Brothers Discovery has rejected Paramount's latest buyout offer, urging its shareholders to stick with Netflix. Warner Brothers said Paramount's bid was not superior to the $72 billion Netflix offer for its studios and streaming businesses. The board also flagged the uncertainty around Paramount's offer, saying it would effectively be a leverage buyout the largest in history. This comes after Larry Ellison stepped in to personally backstead.

up Paramount's offer with a $40 billion equity guarantee. And just a little while ago, Paramount reaffirmed its $30 a share, all-cash offer for Warner Brothers. No more, Bill. You've done a lot of reporting on this. And let me just add in how Versant also that Versant is what I like to call it, like Cuisant, factors in all of this. Comcast completed a spinoff of Versant this week, which includes MS Now, CNBC, and other networks. Versant's shares closed down 13% on their first day and now down 29% for the week, although that is index funds repurposing themselves, according to many investors,

and I think that's correct. All well, Paramount has been arguing that Warner's cable channel stub are worth around a dollar or share. Let's talk a little bit about this. Now, Audie works for CNN, which is... That's my disclaimer.

That's your disclaimer. WD is the parent company. Is the parent company. I am a contributor to them, but I will be leaving if Paramount gets it. So I don't, and I don't give a fuck. So I'm going to, You may weigh in as you want.

No, I am literally here to learn on this front. Okay, all right. Okay, Bill, why don't you walk us through this and what happens next? Sure. Well, the key point of what just happened was this idea that the Paramount offer at $30 a share is deemed by the board of WBD not to be, quote, superior at this time. Okay, because if they did deem it to be superior, whatever that means, that's a sort of a vague term, which comes a lot of judgment comes into that. If they did deem it to be superior, they could break their merger agreement with Netflix and turn their attention to the Paramount deal. They would owe Netflix a breakup fee of $2.8 billion.

And then, you know, we'd have a – the bidding war would begin again. So they did what you would expect them to do, which would say, why are we going to – you know, we've got this merger agreement with Netflix. We're happy with it. We think it's worth more. And there's no reason at this moment to change that recommendation. That doesn't mean that they, if Paramount were to raise its bid, as it sort of indicated that it might do, because it said it hadn't made its best in final offer, but yet it hasn't done anything beyond $30 yet, that they wouldn't change that recommendation and open up the bidding order. They did note they would listen. One of the board members noted that on CNBC. Like, if they want to lob another number over, we're happy to take it. Well, there are in what is called Revlon mode now of.

selling, they have to sell the company to the highest bidder. They are required, you know, by Delaware law essentially to do that. And that's why they're constantly re-evaluating this, these two bids. And once again, they've, I mean, there's no difference between this, you know, the December 4th final bid that Paramount made of $30 a share hasn't changed in a month. So if, if, if they want to upset the Apple card here, they are going to have to raise their bid. Now, they may not want to. You also had noted these fees of, that Paramount wants more control over certain loans and there's a lot of money there, correct? Yes, Warner Brothers is concerned about the way that Paramount would let them operate their own company between signing and closing. And since it's like an 18-month

process generally to get this kind of a deal regulator's approval, both in the EU and here, to get it closed, they need to know that they can operate their business in the normal course. And Paramount put several covenants into their proposed merger agreement that would limit the flexibility that Warner Brothers has during that period. And Warner Brothers believes that that would cost them. Which Netflix has said, you know, do what you want, which is another reason that they're gone with the Netflix deal. Netflix also said, you and if you don't take our deal, we're going to walk away, which, you know, put a little gun to their head. And so they, you know, They went with the bird in the hand, and at the time it was the better deal.

It made total sense. And it still basically makes total sense. It's a real toss-up now because of the value of this global network stub, the, you know, part of the business where Audi works, CNN, is potentially going to be spun off under the Netflix deal. And so the value of that business is a spun-off entity comes into play. Under the Paramount deal, they're buying the whole company. so that's a moot point. So, you know, that's why you're trying to judge the value of the two offers. So it's what it's valued at, right?

And certain people saying $3 to $5, $3 to $3 a share now. She was $3 to $5. The chairman of Warner Brothers Discovery Board said on CNBC, $3 to $5. Morgan Stanley says, you know, $1.50. The Paramount people say $1.40. And there's all debt issues around. If they pull some more debt off, it could go up. If, if, when they, there's what, $15 billion in debt?

There's a moment, at the moment, they're talking about putting $15 billion on Adi's company. And, you know, is that too much? Can you pay for that, Audi? Yeah, that's why I'm wearing a quarter zip. I couldn't afford the full zip. But it's not a vest. It's a full quarter zip. If you really want to pay down that debt, you may need to wear a vest.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, there are a lot of kind of subtle nuances going on here, which, which really puts Paramount, you know, in a bad position to be honest. honest. If they really want to win, they just have to spend more of Larry's money. Larry's money. He's got to get daddy. Nepo Mogul has to get daddy to pay more. You know, when this started, did I tell you, not as smart as you think? And you said they have smart advisors. I'm like, still dumb. I don't think they're listening to them. I think that's part of the problem. Well, because still dumb, right? And you can see that over at CBS. Very dumb what's happening there. Like, what a way to run a network right into the wall, like on a daily,

essentially. We won't get into it, but they suck. So when is, when, what happens next? They have to just raise the price. And then what is Netflix do? What is, and then there's the whole Trump thing. Let me just add one more question. There's the whole Trump thing, which they've touted their friendship with Trump. But as far as I'm concerned, he's a little busy. I don't think he's going to, and he's got limited time before the midterms. The dragging this thing out is not good for Paramount, because the closer you get to the election, and if the Democrats take over, they will not. not get it through either. They don't, they will lose that ability to control the process because Trump will be essentially, you know, left naked without clothes, right, essentially. He won't be

able to help his friend Larry. I'm sure right now he can't help his friend Larry. I think less and less every passing day. But your thoughts. Well, everybody's now, quote unquote, Trump's friend and Larry's his friend, Ted Serendos is his friend, you know, even though. Right, he's played it beautifully, I will say. But he's a, you know, big, Democrat, his wife was ambassador, you know, under Obama. I mean, so, and Reed Hastings. Not sure that matters anymore. No, I mean, everybody, you know, he wants fealty paid to him.

And if you've got a big deal that you want to get through, you're going to pay that fealty because it's, except I don't know if he has that power as much as everybody. I don't think he will rush to Larry's aid. He loves to get involved in this, Kara. Yeah, he's busy with other things now. He's got Greenland. No, I'm telling you. He's our most healthy president.

He doesn't ever. He doesn't sleep. There's no time. I hope you're right. He shouldn't be involved in this. All right. So, so far, I've been right about all of this. So as I said to Scott All the time. Is it going to be the title of your memoir? Yes, yes, I'm right. Look, what happens next is that their tender offer is open until January 21st, and they're going to, between now and then, go around their hostile tender offer that Paramount has made. They're going to go around to the big shareholders. And you noted it was only a small amount. It was only like a point. that's understandable because there are a lot of conditions to this deal that are kind of, like the tender offer can't happen unless they have a merger agreement with Warner Brothers.

Well, they're not going to get a merger agreement with Warner Brothers unless there's a superior offer. So, you know, basically people aren't going to tender, but they are going to go until maybe the last minute at most, at best, but they are going to go around and make this case that their $30 a share-all-cash deal is superior to Netflix because of this business. of the Audie's company not being worth this three to five dollars a share or whatever it's worth. Which is kind of technical and confusing to most people, right? This is the kind of thing that these guys get into the weeds about.

And so what is your, what's the next? Raising the price is the only thing to do, right? Raising the price to around $34 a share is the only way for Paramount to win this thing. Otherwise, it's going to Netflix. What about the Saudis? What about the, there's also. It's Larry's another $10 billion for Larry. And it's, you know, a dollar share is two and a half billion.

Will they? Because it's already non-economic bill. This thing is already so ridiculously not. They decided that they have to have it. They've made seven bids. I suspect they're going to do it. I suspect they will raise their offer to 34 and they will win. I hate to, you know, I think they will end up winning.

But I, you know, it could be wrong. I mean, there's no way without raising this bid that Warner Brothers is going to change its recommendation. Not going to happen. I don't know about that, but I think if they do win, they're not going to get it through. It's too much. The time is too short. And by that time, it will be the Democrats calling for blood. And then it will be ugly. Well, there's also a risk that Netflix won't get their deal done either. Yes, but less, I mean, that's fine, but it's not the same thing, right? It's not like this, I'm the best, their whole argument is that I'm the best friend of the phone. Right. And it's a stupid argument. Well, it's so transactional. You know,

what is Larry, what have you done for me this week? Did you donate to my ballroom this week or not? Did you, have you made... But then Ted could do the same thing. A lot of the stuff Larry can do, Ted can do. Comcast did it, which was quite surprising. But, you know, everybody is paying filthy now, Kara. So, Audie, any thoughts? Any thoughts? I know that coming from NPR and coming from like non-profit, like, oh, what are we going to do? The politics will change. That I was not fully prepared. for like corporate media. And it has been an education.

Like, for sure, it's been an education. I think one of the hundreds of thousands of reasons for me not to comment on this is kind of for the thing you guys are saying, which is like, we're in the realm of like personalities and regulation and the government. And so it's not the same as sitting around talking about a business deal

or even a hostile takeover. It's kind of something else. And if you notice people not speaking up, I mean, A, we can't, right, because we're in the middle of a regulatory issue. But B, to say it's above our pay grade is an understatement. Right. That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But by the way, over at NPR, they've said, fuck you government. And they're doing great just fine. I had breakfast with NPR host this morning. And he was like, we don't even want to talk about it. Also, but the thing is, they've moved on and they're doing rather well under Catherine there. It's always, like I said, it was always haunting us there.

But now it doesn't. Now they're like free. It's like, now you've got to just compete in the marketplace. But lucky for them, they do fundamentally have a brand people trust. Yeah. Yeah. But I think the way to go is fuck you. For a president to be sticking his fingers into an individual deal, you know, is not normal.

There are agencies that are supposed to be at arm's length that deal with these issues. And that's the way it has worked. but this president likes to get his fingers. You know, I have people often, often, let me, let me end on this. I have a lot of people like always go, a couple years ago would be like, can you believe he did this? And I was like, I do, I believe it. He's done it seven times before.

Let me tell you, he does it. See Greenland, see Venezuela. That's why, Kerry, he does have time for this. He makes time for this kind of crazy shit. I don't think so. All right. Well, I think, I just, I just, I just, I just, I think they have taken far too long for this. They could have done the 34 if they were smarter. But we'll see.

We'll see. And by the way, and if they don't do it, he is holding a very expensive leaky, Larry has bought himself an expensive leaky yacht that he is going to not know how to unload because there's no way or right. It's too small. But without doing this, it's only a $6 billion, only a $6 billion equity bet for him. So if he loses $6 billion. But I'm saying he's just a, he's just a. That's why they're serious about trying to do it. Because they know that they know that there are at a strategic disadvantage without it. Yeah. And even with it, still a hobbit. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We come back. Grask's despicable new lows, even for the ever-dispicable Elon Musk.

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system. Just two gummies a day to bring balance to your gut. So, save the AI for drafting that reply to your X. That's going to take guts. Go to OLLY.com to learn more. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Support for this show comes from Vanta. Vanta uses AI and automation to get you compliant fast. Simplify your audit process and unblocked deals so you can prove to customers that you take security seriously. You can think of Vanta as you're always on AI-powered security expert, who scales with you. That's why top startups like Cursor, Linear, and Replit use Vanta to get and stay secure.

Get started at vanta.com slash Vox. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Vox. We're back with another headline. Elon Musk's AI chatbot Grock is facing criticism from governments around the world as it continues to create sexualized images of women and children. Grock Imagine, an AI image generator includes spicy mode that can generate adult content. Meanwhile, Musk's XAI says it raised $20 billion in funding round, exceeding the target of $15 billion, including from Fidelity.

Just today, they're making filthy images of the woman who was killed in Minneapolis. The European countries are losing their minds. You haven't heard Word One from Sundar Pichai at Google or Tim Cook at Apple, who should have been to see Sam is supposed to be against the law. So you two, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, a, uh, yeah, uh, X is a Nazi porn bar and so, and so, oh, that's me. Yes, it was. Thank you. And it certainly is. It certainly is. And this is just another example of it. But look, from a business point of view, X-A-I and the merger between X-A-I and X saved X, right?

It saved Fidelity's investment in X as well as Larry Ellison's and Mark Andresens and, you know, and other friends of Elon's. So I guess, and the banks who are about sitting on $13 billion of loans that they might lose a lot of money on. So that merger saved the X deal, which, you know, got to give, I guess, Elon credit for devising and conceptualizing that. And now he's raising $20 billion at a, what, at $350 billion valuation or whatever it is. I mean, you know, I guess from a purely business point of view, Kara, you have to admire Elon's ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

And you've got to admire, I guess, the fact that suddenly he's now worth, you know, $700 billion because of SpaceX, et cetera, going public. I mean, so the guy knows how to make money for himself, a trillion dollar pay package out of Tesla. His old pay package was reinstated by the courts. I mean, so, all right, on one level, you have to kind of admire that if you're an American who believes in sort of Darwinian capitalism. On the other hand, you know, you expect Elon Musk, and you know this better than anyone, to eliminate these images and go, you know, whole hog on trying to reduce the Nazi porn bar aspect of what he's created here.

So why haven't, this is C-SAM. This is porn of children. Like I think he would utterly allow porn of women. I think he's a misogynist. So that's sort of, that's water under the bridge for him, so to speak. But with children, this is something that usually sets off a firestorm, a problem. Any reason why they're like fine with C-Sam? I mean, again, does Elon Musk like to do the right thing when it comes to these things?

Or does he just like to claim its free speech and, you know, whatever? Let it ride. I mean, you know, he reinstated Trump, you know, you know, I don't, I wouldn't lose sleep or hold my breath thinking that Elon Musk is going to do the right thing here. But, you know, he might do that one simple basic thing that is so obvious that has to be done. Meanwhile, leaving the rest of the Nazi porn bar to thrive. So. Yeah. Audie, thoughts?

I'm curious about the people who, you know, like the First Lady or Ted Cruz who were so touting the Take It Down Act, you know, which was supposed to allow people a chance to take down non-consensual images, sexualized images. Marsha Blackmer? Yeah, again, it's one of those moments where you're like, do you actually care about this or do you not care about this? The other thing I think about is there's this weird collision course between the very muddied aspect of AI and that culture, which says onward, no matter what, and a pretty broad base, not quite a moral panic yet, but very much something brewing among parents and in school systems where they're like ban phones and we're Australia. We're saying kids can't even be on there. We're in a collision course. And sometimes it feels like the industry, their plan is just to outrace. us. Build all the data centers you can. Make this thing, make your born bought quickly. Just do it all while Trump is okay with it. And then people can't really stop you. Yeah. That is their policy for everything, by the way. Yeah. And I do. Like Amazon and taxes. Google and stealing. But it's not 1995. Nobody is looking at the industry and being like, well, they do have our interest

at heart and they might cure cancer. No one is saying that. Everybody is just like, I want to throw my phone out the window. I hate this. I'm not on socials anymore. I'm a teen in a Luddite club. Like, the backlash is real. And I'm very curious about going forward if that turns into a political action, so to speak, is there a candidate who represents that? I will speak to that. I think the CSAM stuff is going to kill them. They're going to, this is not, this is not a, this is where it stops. And you've noticed that Google settled with the parents of character AI. I don't know what the settlement is. And I did interview. that mother, and I've interviewed, I'm, I'm, I've been interviewing a lot of these parents because it's a big issue since

2003, I've been doing it. And but at a certain point, it won't be settlements, right? It'll be, you know what? Maybe we're going to have this conversation with the public in public. Right, right. I'm not sure why she. No, I'm not, this is in no way judging the decision of parents, but I'm saying like, this is how movements start. I think the reason Google settled is because they are not protected under Section 230 on this one. Oh, interesting. were not. Ultimately, if this stuff gets out, it's very ugly for them. And I wish one of the parents would just say, you know what, I'm going to just take you to court. It's just expensive for them. It's exhausting their child's suicide. But the same thing with these imagery, that it does, I think there is a group of people that will not settle. And they will try everything to settle because so much of this stuff is so heinous. And also what you, once you, what I had is one of the parents read the dialogue. And when any parent hears it, you're like, put those people in jail. And so to me, they're headed for a perp walk is what I feel.

Like, in this issue and it's well beyond what Australia is doing. But they're going to get a backlash like you've absolutely never seen, right? Yeah. So where does that affect at one point in Elon Musk? You know what I mean? Like, that's what I'm curious about. Never. I don't think he is.

It's like Trump. Do you think it's because it just becomes the gutter? Like, this is the red light district of the internet. he runs it and. And because a lot of, you know, if you've noticed the internet is becoming less and less useful. Yes, 100%. Yes, 100%. It's really becoming less and less useful.

And so the promise was this would be more useful. And a lot of AI absolutely is. I just think there's no business in child porn. There's no business from now until 200 years from now. Why aren't, this should be an issue for federal regulation, right? Ficular regulators. But you'll never get the Trump administration. to do the right thing. They, they preferred to do the wrong thing, purposefully, to, you know,

own the libs, so to speak. But is it just the Trump administration? I mean, Kara, I feel like you and I have talked so many times about 230 and how lawmakers are just very reluctant to step on the toes of industry. When this had, when the, when I started interviewing these parents back in 20, 24, um, I called 10 legislators. I'm like, can you please fucking listen to this and do something about it? And they're like, oh, I hadn't heard of it. Like, And I was like, get on it. Like, get the fuck on this. Like, I can't do anything. And I think, you know, and then unfortunately, the people that get on it are sort of have, you know, they're trying to kill a fly with an anvil, right? Like, there's, there's a way to do this. This is illegal. There are already laws in place about these things. Yeah, but they don't really understand the technology, frankly. I would prosecute X-AI. That's what I would just, like, time to, if there was a very ambitious prosecutor out there, I don't care if it's conservative or liberal. You're going to prosecute the $700 billion man? Yes.

Yes. For child porn. No. I do a state. I do one of the big states, you know, just like in order to have people talking about it, right? Because he's the one I would go for because he's the biggest and the most villainous. He's the most villas. Anyway, we'll see what happens here.

But let me just say, I'm going to, look, it's mostly Elon Musk's fault because he doesn't give a fuck. Obviously, he brought back Andrew Tate and others who are just heinous creatures. But ultimately, Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook, you're soiling yourself in public by letting this continue. When you say by letting, you mean not speaking out, not coming out with counter technology? The app stores. The app stores. They took down a lot of that January 6th stuff pretty quickly when I did that one interview with the guide from whatever that site that was used for planning. They've acted before in the app store, but this is child porn and you own this both of you.

I'm sorry. Anyway, they're in a position to stop it, like, at least speak out against it or temporarily stop it and get him to do something about it. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-assad portfolio of stocks, bonds, and options, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an unkept 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by public investing, brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member Finra and SIPC.

Advisory service by Public Advisors LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets as an interactive analysis tool, output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Support for this show comes from the Home Depot. This holiday season, take advantage of savings on the wide selection of top smart home security products at the Home Depot. The Home Depot has everything you need to make your home smarter with the latest technology and products that let you control and automate your home. And with brands you trust like Ring, Blink, Google, and more available in store and online, often available with same day or next day shipping. So you can protect your piece of money.

mind whether you're away or at home this season. The Home Depot. Smart homes start here. Having a smart home is a cool idea, but kind of a daunting prospect. You have to figure out which devices to buy, how to connect them all together. It's all just a lot. But for two weeks on the Vergecast, we're trying to simplify all of it. We're going to spend some time answering all of your questions about the smart home,

and then we're going to go room by room through a real house, my real house, and try to figure out how to make it smart and how to make all of that smart make sense. All of that and much more on the Vergecast wherever you get podcasts. This special series is presented by the Home Depot. Okay, Audie and Bill. Let's hear some predictions. I will go last.

You will go. I shall go last. Who wants to go first? That's not fair. Okay, I'll go first. I have two predictions, Kara. One is that I do think AI evaluates. are going to return to Earth in 2026, the latter half of 2026.

Not that AI isn't a valuable tool, like the Internet is a valuable tool, but just like with Internet 1.0, you know, you slap.com at the end of, you know, a company going public and suddenly everybody falls over themselves to invest. That's where we are now with AI. It's ridiculous, and it will come down to Earth, and a lot of people will lose a lot of money. which is always, I think, justice to some extent. Not that AI won't be incredibly valuable tool as it already is proving to be and will become more so in the future.

And the second prediction is one of my favorites, which is that Hakeem Jeffries will be a year from now, the Speaker of the House. If not sooner. Yeah, more and more people are talking like that, frankly. Sooner and the better as far as I'm concerned. All right, Audie. I would say that this is maybe more a wish

I predict there will be a movement of human verified social media apps that someone is going to find a way to tap into the market of people who want to avoid AI slop and imagery. And I was thinking of this when I saw Adam Masary of Instagram do this big carousel little essay where he was basically saying, like Instagram as we know it is going to be pretty much dead under this scenario and here are the things you need to think about. And the first thing I thought is there's going to be someone who makes an app that somehow is human verifiable and that people are really going to want that.

Yeah. Yeah. Or else get off. I mean, there's a trend among young people of getting off completely. Because as you said, if it's not useful, then you just, you can't find your way to it in the day. TikTok is useful for people right now because it's TV to them. They are being entertained by this thing on a loop. But if they're no longer entertained because what they're seeing is, an algorithm owned by, you know, the government's friends, or just AI slop. And by slop, I mean, everything that is just generated for generating's sake. Why? If you're 14, 15, why? Right. Interestingly, the head of the head of Roku, who's a really smart guy, Anthony Wood, founder and CEO, did say he thought there was going to be an AI movie hit, AI generated movie hit.

He's always talked about the back end, and I think he's completely right. when I interviewed the head of runway, the same thing. There's a lot of back-end efficiencies about to be imposed upon Hollywood and that will be helpful for their business. But when it moves into content, it's a really different thing. And one of the things the runway CEO suggested is that instead of labeling AI, we label real. Yes.

Because it's smaller. Very much so. So this is like organic. So you're telling me the wind is at my back. This is possible. I know nothing about business. this, but I'm ready. All right, I will do this. I think time is running out for Trump, and I think he's much sicker than people realize. Oh, this is a health prediction. I thought this

is a political prediction. He's not going to get all this stuff done. Like, he's got, there's too much stuff happening and not enough lackeys. I know it sounds crazy, but even the lackeys are probably lacking at this point. And so when I saw that Susie Wiles interview, I'm like, the rats, they're getting ready. As I told Scott, I've, I've, I've, I've, meeting with Trump people a lot and they all are asking for pardons. They're all like getting ready for the inevitable, which is, right. They're getting ready for the for them. But that's different from saying there's no after because he plans to stay. Like I hear you making a prediction that's different. I'm not going to, yeah, as Scott says biology is undefeated. And nobody, you know, I'm not sure who's

less charming Don Jr. or J.D. Vance, but as I, as I said about Vance, he's the cyber truck of politicians. But one of the, it's true. It took me as a. You're like, of course. Yes. Correct. Yes. But that's why I talk about the ballroom.

I think it is, there's also some legal stuff happening to slow it down quite a bit. Everything that gets slowed down is a problem, whether it's the paramount deal, whether it's the ballroom. And I think, by the way, FYI, they do need a ballroom at the White House, having covered it. There's no word. It's always a bunch of tents when they have something. It's a bunch of tents. and there's small rooms. They really are people.

And the offices are small. It's really quite fun to go there. But at the same time, you're like, what a shitty office this is? And so there needs to be some renovation. Just the way it was done was, of course, awful. But I don't think you're going to get the huge ballroom. I don't think he's going to get what he wants. And I think the gold leaf is going to come down.

And they will have a decent, better side to it. And that's okay. but the big one isn't going to happen. I'm sorry to say. He's not going to get his triumph triumphal arch either. Is he going to get his face on Mount Rushmore or on the coins? I don't care. Do you care?

The coins might happen. He can have the coins. I don't care. Like at a certain point, you're like, yeah, give him a coin. Why not? Like Mount Rushmore, I don't care. I don't care. And none of us mentioned the 250-year anniversary.

I mean, we were about to see. I think propaganda is actually the safest word to use definitionally here. Kara, I'll defer to you because that's your area of expertise. Because it's going to be the country's birthday in his frame. That's right. Just completely in the context of him. Which is well-done stakes and Bobby Vand. Well, it's a UFC octagon.

It's whatever. I mean, just something that could be. very sort of academic and a little sleepy and history nerd in another year is going to be something else. Yeah, I just think, I don't care. Go ahead. Go for it, old man. It's your last hurrah. Go for it. I don't get, I'm not going to get mad about those things. Anyway, so we'll see about that. But it's time. TikTok, as they say. Anyway, I really appreciate it. But let me just read this. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business. If you don't agree with me or Bill or Audi or whatever's on your mind, go to nymag.com.com. slash pivot. Send a question for the show or comment or call 85551 Pivot. Again, that is the show. Thank you so much. Audie and Bill came on at the last minute and I really appreciate it. It was incredibly substantive and really helpful for people because of right now the news. Bill, total honor to meet you

this way. This is so cool. Thank you, Kara. You had a great job together. Thank you. You had a lot of nice report of the two of you. Anyway, and the thing is, the last show was Brooke Hammerling, Stephanie Ruhl, and Don Lemon. And all they talked about was, speaking of gay, porn, heeded rivalry. So this was a little different. Oh, my God. All right. Well, ask me back to this show.

I don't have to, like, harm Scott every time I want to come back. Don't you worry. Absolutely. Both of you have been valued contributors to a lot of my podcast, and I really appreciate it. So please watch, listen to, and read all the amazing work they're doing at CNN and Puck. Audie has the morning show. Bill has a must-must-read column that is so helpful to me in understanding these things. Anyway, thanks for listening to Pivot

and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. I'm just doing rather well, I have to say. We'll be back next week, and I will read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderjohn engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited this video.

Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine, at NYMag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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