Pivot - Twitter and Elon Head to Court, The Uber Files, and Guest Mark Leibovich

Episode Date: July 12, 2022

Kara and Scott discuss Elon Musk and Twitter gearing up for a court battle, the initial revelations from The Uber Files, and Klarna’s slashed valuation.  They also debate the ethics of a liberal group offering bounties for Supreme Court Justice sightings. Then, they’re joined by Friend of Pivot Mark Leibovich to discuss his new book, “THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVITUDE: Donald Trump’s Washington and the Price of Submission.” You can find Mark on Twitter at @MarkLeibovich and you can buy his book here. Send us your Listener Mail questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or via Yappa, at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher from San Francisco.

And I'm Scott Galloway. And you have been what? What happened to you today? Oh, that's right. So I got blocked by Elon Musk, which is unusual because I wasn't following him. So it was what I call a proactive block. But you know, Kara, let's be honest, the sexual tension is palpable. And if I had, if I was more in touch with my feelings, I would have said, Elon, block me harder, you one-ton bitch. Too much? Too much? You know what? It's just right in this case. It's really weird. You weren't following. I wasn't following the guy. I wanted to find out what he had said about, way back when, about the bots. So I went to his Twitter account and it says, you're blocked.

And I'm like, no, do you need help? And he hasn't blocked me yet. I was like, you're going to ruin it for me for everybody, aren't you? I'm going to get blocked because of you. You're speaking in the future tense. It's already over. Yeah, I guess that's true.

You have broken bad with the dog. You're in. Yeah, Chuckmate. He had a good one today with chess with a picture of Chuckmate. Get it, Chuckmate? He had a picture of Chuck Norris. I won't go into it.

Yeah, but he's already trolling Twitter. Did you see the thing where he had a cartoon of himself? And anyway. Whatever. So I'm blocked. Whatever. I'm blocked. Yeah.

Well, you'll live somehow. We'll talk about that more, obviously. The legal battle is brewing between Elon Musk and Twitter, because that's the real deal. None of this nonsense. The big revelations about Uber under Travis Kalanick in the Washington Post. And our friend, a pivot is a friend of mine, also Mark Leibovitz, who's a wonderful reporter. He's worked for a whole bunch of places, New York Times, Washington Post, I think. And now he's, I think he's at the Atlantic. Yes. He's the author of one of the buzziest books in the post-Trump

era. It's called Thank You for Your Servitude, Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission. That sounds very, very sexual tension palpable. But first, let's talk about a few things. Klarna is no longer Europe's most valuable private fintech company. The buy now pay later pioneer, who you've talked about, among others, has been slashed to around $7 billion after a very difficult funding round. That's 85% down from 46 billion just over a year ago. That is just astonishing. I'm seeing VCs here, and they're really saying everything's the bottom's falling out. U.S.-based competitor firm is also down almost 90% from a November high. I mean, wow. I mean, the investment, every investor I've met here has been like, this is really bad, although they're trying to find good in it.

So what do you think about this? They're trying to find good in the private markets declining or specifically the BNPL space? It's good because now we can really get them focused, that kind of thing. It's good for business kind of thing. Well, VCs can't, A, they have to be optimistic because to invest in companies really early requires just a level of consensual hallucination and optimism that is really admirable. I could never be an early stage investor. I hear everything and I'm like, that's fucking stupid. And these guys, you have to give the venture community credit. They venture. They find someone they think is intelligent and an

idea and they're willing to pour millions, if not tens of millions, behind it. And it's also something that really is uniquely American. The problem is, and this is just part of the cycle, we're in the part of the cycle where things got so frothy and VCs were able to raise so much money on the backs of incredible returns that they kind of woke up. I would imagine that two-thirds of the investments made, and this is conservative, allocated in 2021 are dramatically underwater. And that all the vintage, you know, they all have vintages. Once they get to a certain point, they just raise, once you get to fund five, you're sort of bulletproof because even if fund five is terrible, you're already raising fund six. It's the VCs, the VCs that will go away are the VCs whose first fund was raised in 2020 or 2021, because they've had to compete at these irrational

and sustainable valuations. Yeah, which they didn't like, which they didn't like. You heard a lot of grumbling from them when you talked to them. But they're going to be swept off the point. They're going to be, they're just out of business. Do they have any level of ability to be differentiated by the way they, is there anything they can value add to these things that make them okay? Yeah. There's very few markets, Kara, that are a better case study in the power of brand. Because while they all claim to add value and they're operators and they all love the entrepreneur and are emotionally supportive of the entrepreneur, they all say the same goddamn thing. Ninety-seven percent of them, their value add ends the moment you cash their check. There's very little differentiation. A good VC can't save a bad company. A bad VC can absolutely ruin a good

company. But the majority of them are kind of, they're capital providers. And some, I've done work with General Catalyst. They have so many resources, whether it's looking for compensation, compensation benchmarks, or an operator to help you. They have that kind of reach. I think Andreessen Horowitz has that kind of reach. But more than anything, it's like a college degree. And that is, it's not the value add of the education. It's the certification. I get that. But the services, they spend a lot of money on services on the side or that they're someone,

you know, there's someone there that can really understand them. Recruiting is an important thing, I know, for a lot of startups. But a lot of these services seem ridiculous. I have a lot of friends who are startup people, and they're always like, I would like my VC to shut up. Like's what they really say. Stop talking to me. VC is one of, you should expect, generally speaking, when you put a VC or a hedge fund guy on your board, they will be the smartest person you've ever met that knows absolutely nothing about your business and keeps forwarding you interesting ideas. And because they're an

investor on your board, you got to respond. So I've stopped. Unless it's really important, I don't bother the CEO because the board has decided that that means that they can just send crazy batch of weird ideas. But once Sequoia, once Andreessen Horowitz, once General Catalyst is in your deal,

everybody else plows in and your financing is oversubscribed because everybody thinks that they're smarter than us because of their previous success. But there's not, I would sell entrepreneurs when they take money, be clear, this is on you. They will assume they will do nothing and you won't be disappointed. It's the same way with,

do you have a publisher? I know you're writing a book. I write books. I supposedly am with the best publisher in business, in the business book world. And I just assume they're going to do nothing for me. And I'm not disappointed. I would agree. Although I haven't turned in my books, I shouldn't say things, but I agree. I used to play a game of that game where everybody dies, but two people that are critical. And I was always living, me and Jeff Bezos always lived. And everybody, I'm like, I don't need any of you kind of thing, which wasn't a very good selling point, but. I'm sorry, you've decided the two people that are going to inherit the earth are Jeff Bezos and you? Well, no, if you're making a book, I was like, you put people in the room,

the publisher, the publicist, the editor, me, the seller, and Jeff Bezos was the seller, or Walmart, or whatever. So would you propagate a generation of people in permanent midlife crisis stasis? No, but I'm saying, he was running Amazon at the time, so I needed Amazon. I couldn't replicate that, and they couldn't replicate me. So that was all that was needed. That's all I'm saying, he was running Amazon at the time, so I needed Amazon. I couldn't replicate that, and they couldn't replicate me. So that was all that was needed.

That's all I'm saying. I'll give it. I give you that. It would be hard to replicate you, Kara Swisher. I'm still fascinated by the two people on Earth that are going to be Kara and Jeff. I know, exactly. So then everybody dies but me. It's that game of, it's called, like, Werewolf?

Anyway, let's move on. You were right. This reckoning of VCs is really coming. I got that feeling when I was here. After you said that, I went and visited a whole bunch this weekend. Well, they're blessed with, and this is important in life, you got to be careful around the scorecards that dictate your life. Because when you have public stocks or you have a Robinhood account and you're checking your stocks every five minutes, that's an investment and a level of stress you don't want. The nice thing about privates

is that they don't have to mark them every day. So you can pretend that your investment in this cute little company that's a SaaS platform is still worth a billion dollars. All right, we're gonna move on. A liberal advocacy group is offering up to 200, this is a thing you're gonna like, $250 to DC service industry workers

if they report sightings of Supreme Court justices. That's the reaction to Justice Brett Kavanaugh fleeing a D.C. steakhouse when abortion rights protesters showed up outside. The group shut down D.C. is specifically targeting the justices who overturned Roe versus Wade, tweeting out an offer for $50 for a sighting and $200 if the judge is still there 30 minutes afterward. I don't know what to think of this. I believe in protests. I'm not surprised given how they've decided to really stick their necks out on things

that are very controversial and lie when they were in Congress about what their intentions were. The money thing, it makes me uncomfortable, very uncomfortable, I would say. So and Twitter told Axios in email that shutdown DC's tweets were not in violation of Twitter's safety policies. What do you think?

So Amy Coney Barrett, in my view, over the next 50 years is going to be one of the most damaging people in the history of America. And I think she's not going to pay any attention to legal precedent as she claimed she was with Roe versus Wade or established precedent. I think she's going to decide to dictate all her decisions based on her notion of what her Christian God believes. And she could be there 50 years. So, it tickles my tribal censors to think that people are making her life uncomfortable and protesting her. Having said that, I think this is bad, and we're going to need new laws to protect that basically say protest is fine. If you want to be

at the restaurant and outside and maintain a certain distance, that's fine. But anybody who is not broken the law, which she has not, and especially people who occupy positions in government of importance, which she does, should be afforded a certain level of privacy and ability to go about living their lives. So I don't think you do away with free speech, but I think that if you're a paparazzi and Heidi Klum is checking into the Equinox, they can photograph her. There's nothing she can do about that, but they have to maintain a certain distance. They can't go inside private property. And also, as it relates to people offering bounties for sightings, I think it should be made clear that if anything happens to those people, you are liable.

You're the person that incited this potential violence. So I got to be honest, as much as it kind of tickles my tribal censors to think that Justice Thomas and his wife have their dinner interrupted, the bottom line is they should be able to dine in peace. I don't like it when people give—go ahead. You know, a lot of people talk about this. Peaceful protests are fine. Noisy protests are fine. It's when they tip over into what happened on January 6th.

And that's why I don't love trying to bribe people, telling people. But that happens in Hollywood, like, every five minutes, right, with celebrities. And sometimes celebrities call in their own paparazzi. Yeah, that's right. They alert people. So I think they should be able to protest. I get the issue around judges, but it's a very fine line here in terms of the money thing makes me deeply uncomfortable. And I don't think it's a violation.

I just think it's a very bad practice. Protesting, if they see them or somehow find out where they are, but not through bribing people, is fine, I think. As long as it's safe. There's some nuance here, Kara. There's some nuance. There's some nuance. And that is, you've seen those inflatable rats in front of buildings in New York. I bet they haven't in D.C.

But in New York. Yeah, the rats. Yeah, I've seen the rats. If a restaurant or a business goes non-union or is not being cooperative with unions trying to establish membership, they inflate a giant rat in front of the building and they have protesters. The police put up a police barrier. You're not allowed to restrict people's access to their place of work. They are not allowed to go inside. They are not allowed to follow people home and make them feel unsafe. So protest is one thing, but I

do think people have a right to go about their lives when they have not broken the law. So I think there needs to be standards here. And when you start providing bounties, I don't know. Bounties. That's right. It's bounties. It's scary. It's not. I'm not.

I think there's going to, just as technology is creating a host of questions we never had to answer before, this is one. And that is, if you say, oh, Justice Thomas is at this national park hiking with his wife, and he's alone and has very small or little or no security, I would imagine at some point these people don't want security around them. I don't think they do that. I've spoken to a justice. They are with their security all the time. All the time. Yeah, especially in this environment. When you're doxed, this really is just a form of doxing, these bounties. I think the people and the, maybe, I don't even want to say platform because it brings up all this, but the people who do this, I just think you're legally liable if anything then happens. I think it's a bad look if something bad happens to especially judges, you know, especially after this Abe assassination in Japan, which is very odd what happened there.

But it's just the homemade gun and that he had no security, really, that he was so exposed. It's a very dangerous society and there's too many guns in this country. That's what we're... But what if, okay, so Justice Barrett knows a little bit what she's gotten herself into. Does that mean she shouldn't be able to go to Chuck E. Cheese with her kids and have a peaceful birthday party? She can, but she cannot not expect protests. I'm always on the side, you know, people always like, oh, I want to censor people when I talk about dangerous stuff online. I think protests are, I've been protesting. I'm fine with it.

I'm fine with it. I just like the idea of her having to go to Chuck E. Cheese because I don't like the woman. And I think that's a punishment worth some death. She doesn't go to Chuck E. Cheese. And anyway, it's unfortunately the price of admission into democracy right now. And that's the way it is. I don't love it. I'll think one time a group of people protested at my brother's house. He runs one of our companies,

and he brought out lemonade to them. I mean, just, you know, he's like, hi, guys. Good to see you. I was in a fraternity, and we used to get protested, right, you know, justifiably all the time for all the ridiculous shit we were doing. I'll bet. We should do a little Elon protest to your blockage. Anyway, finally, very briefly, Theranos CEO Sonny Balwani was found guilty of 12 counts of fraud. More than his partner, Elizabeth Holmes. Sentencings will come in September for Holmes and November for Balwani. Not a surprise.

Both faced 20 years in prison as well as millions of dollars in payments to victims for Balwani. He seems to be the brains of the operation, even though she was the face, it seems like it. I don't know. Yeah, look, I wasn't familiar with the case, but it would have been very strange and brought up a lot of very uncomfortable comparisons if the man got off. Because it doesn't appear, I don't know if he did anything, you say he's the brains of the operation. I don't know enough about, yeah, my sense is I don't think he was any better or any worse than her. A general, you know, you look at the case and you're like, I mean, we always say, well, it's the top guy or gal, but he entered into a relationship with her when she was very young. And it sounds like whatever wrongdoing happened here, they were co-conspirators

in. That's exactly, they were a pair. They were a pair. The larger question, or I think the thing that's most interesting about this, is that this is a function of pissing off the wrong people. And that is, I think, so people will say, well, Adam Neumann exaggerated and they lied, and there's a distinction. And I agree with that. But the real distinction here, the reason why two of them are headed to prison and one's headed to Coachella is that Masayoshi-san was never going to legally go after Adam Neumann because it would have involved a loss of face, whereas the investors on the board of Theranos went after Elizabeth Holmes and Balwani. And I think it would have been an entirely different situation for Adam Neumann had Masayoshi-san, a billionaire, decided that Adam Neumann had Masayoshi San, a billionaire,

decided that Adam Neumann had committed fraud and committed a crime. And so this is a reality. The law protects, the protected class who the law is willing to go after people is old, rich investors. You do not want to piss off Secretary Shultz or Larry Ellison, because if they decide you've committed fraud, there's a

good chance a lawyer is going to make a good case for it. And the reason why Adam Neumann got to leave with $1.5 billion was because Masayoshi-san didn't want the company put into bankruptcy and have an American vulture buy it for pennies on the dollar. It would have involved a loss of face. So he had to say, no, I wasn't fooled. I wasn't fooled. I just made a bad decision, but I'm going to save the company, which involves buying his single class shares back at a premium. So Adam Neumann, every time he's surfing or lighting up, he should be really thankful. He got, in my view, he got very lucky. He pissed off the right people. Okay. Okay. Speaking of that, pissing off the right people, let's get to our first big story.

Ina on Twitter headed to Delaware Court. We've talked so much about. I have talked about it a lot this weekend. Meet the Press with Kara Swisher. Yes, Meet the Press with Chuck Todd. Meet the Press. I wasn't expecting it. I watched Meet the Press very late at night when I'm alone, which is my favorite time.

No dogs, no kids, just nothing. And I pulled up Meet the Press, which I watch late at Sunday That was, I watched Meet the Press very late at night when I'm alone, which is my favorite time. No dogs, no kids, just nothing. And I pulled up Meet the Press, which I watch late at Sunday nights. And I was so happy to see you. You look nice. I thought you did a good job. Thank you. You were very calm. You have that sort of, you have that sort of, the way you answer anything, it's like

this thin little like, well, your questions are really, they're so stupid. They're kind of cute, Chuck. Let me tell you what's going down here. But you said it in a polite way. Let's play a little clip. He's still going to own Twitter anyway. Well, if a court makes him buy it right now, I mean, I think that's where it's going to go to. It's all a legal proceeding now. And I think it'll be hard for the court to force someone to pay that much money for something. And it's a little unprecedented. And of course, they have Elon Musk, who likes to fight. And so he's going to fight with the Delaware courts, he's going to fight

with Twitter, he's going to fight publicly. And so it could be a big mess. And everyone might want to just have him pay the billion dollar breakup fee and go but it could be a lot higher. He may have to, if Twitter presses it, they may he may have to pay a lot more for trying to get out of this deal. See, see? There we go. I thought that was very reasonable. Twitter is assembling a legal team, a very tough one. And as of our taping on Monday, has plans to sue Elon for dumping his $44 billion takeover of the company. It's a necessary step here, but we'll see where it goes.

Elon has said to have hired the same firm to defend him previously in his pedo guy defamation case in the aftermath of his funding secured tweet. Twitter shares dropped as much as 7.8% in pre-market trading on Monday. We'll see where it goes in the next few days. Donald Trump even weighed in on the situation at a rally in Alaska over the weekend. He's lost his friend Donald. We're going to play that clip. Elon, Elon is not going to buy Twitter. Where did you hear that before?

From me. From a fake account. She says fake. A lot of them. Nah, he's got himself a mess. You know, he said the other day, oh, I've never voted for a Republican. I said, I didn't know that. He told me he voted for me.

So he's another bullshit artist, but he's not going to be buying it. He's not going to be buying it. Wow. He actually called Elon Leon at the beginning of that. He was like rambling quite a bit. So what do you think? Very briefly, Twitter co-founder Ed Williams tweeted, if I was still on the board,

I'd be asking if we can just let this whole ugly exo blow over. Hopefully that's the plan. And this is ceremony. Let's move on. Like you just said, like Masayoshi's son. What do you think? Lower price? Anything? New prediction, Scott? No said, like Masayoshi-san. What do you think? Lower price? Anything? New prediction, Scott? No, he doesn't want a lower price. They're not going to give

him a lower price because they can't trust anything he says. I want to be clear here, I have a bias and I might be projecting, but what I know of these board members, what I know of the abuse he has subjected them to, what I know of the literally thousands of man and woman years he has wasted. Do you realize he had every banker on the debt side or the capital market side at Morgan Stanley roaming the earth to raise $12 billion, of which they would get nothing now? I don't think they had an automatic fee. Yeah, Bill Cohen pointed this out. They're pretty pissed. The arms are pissed. The bankers are pissed. As always, Cohen pointed this out. They're pretty pissed. The arms are pissed. The bankers are pissed. As always, the truth is in the details. When he first quote-unquote referenced concern around the bots, right? Exactly 30 days later, he withdrew from the deal,

and there was in the agreement a 30-day waiting period, and then from which point you gave notice to back out of the deal. So this is all cooked. This is everything he said. If you look at the list of information requests they made, they included things like as esoteric as, what was the valuation method used by Goldman Sachs issue the fairness opinion for Twitter to get approval from the board? That serves no useful utility or insight

other than to create more tripwires so he could say they didn't live up to their information transfer requirements and I can back out of the deal. So, I would imagine, and I might be wrong, the two things that are happening here. And I don't understand the law, but I understand human nature among very confident slash narcissistic men, the majority of this board and this organization called Tesla, are run by. And that is, he has abused these people. And they have— I don't think they're going to do anything, Scott. I think you're wrong.

Okay. They're not. Okay. They don't—I don't think. They're taking them to court, Kara. What do you mean they're not going to do anything? I think they're scared, and they want to get out of this. They want to get him away from them. What I'd ask is he sells back his shares. He sells his shares, maybe at a loss, pays the billion dollars and goes.

I would let him just move. I know it's like we're like justice against Elon, but I think this board wants to get out of this. So let me just acknowledge. It's bad for the employees. They're pretty pissed, too. Let me just acknowledge the majority of smart, thoughtful people I talk to agree with what you just said. I just acknowledge the majority of smart, thoughtful people I talk to agree with what you just said. I believe that there's a lot of ego involved here and that the Twitter board has said, here's $50 million to Wachtell and said, pursue this guy to the end of the earth. And the other thing I don't agree with that's in the narrative right now is that this process will be distracting and damaging for Twitter. and damaging for Twitter.

I think it's going to be much more damaging and Discovery will be much more damaging for Elon Musk because all that will come out is that he's lied consistently and been a bad actor. I think Twitter, if you look at the Twitter board here, they, in my opinion, have handled themselves perfectly. They did exactly what they were supposed to do as fiduciaries. Well, there's a lot of anger within Twitter,

within the employee base saying everything will be fine. A lot of them are focusing on the money that the management would have made if this deal went through, which is substantive, including the CEO. Anyone with options would have made money. They would have done well, let's just say. And so they don't love hearing, General Manager Nick Calderwood wrote a memo to staff saying, I do think we'll be okay. I think they're sick of that. There's a lot of rancor, a lot of people are looking. Casey Newton wrote a lot about this really smartly the other day.

I do think they want it, and some of the board members I could see being like, let's get this. There's a couple of them who have not been through something like this. I think they hired Wachtell to scare him into settlement. And I think that is where it's going to go, is a settlement of some sort, sooner than you think. I don't think they want this to go into court by any means at all. It's not good for anybody. Even if it's bad for Elon, I don't think, I think there's no hurting this guy, like, right? I mean, he blocked Scott Galloway. He doesn't have any sense whatsoever. Look, I have some, I have a real bias here, but I think this represents on so many levels this idolatry of innovators that needs to stop. I don't think it's an idolatry.

It's like he's trouble. Let's just get him in our rearview mirror. I don't think it's anything he don't like. Being shameless is a superpower. Well, being shameless is a superpower. Donald Trump was able to get away with all sorts of illegal behavior because the judge and the person on the other side go, he'll just continue to lie and come up with different reasons to appeal and just keep fighting and say whatever's required and lie to people and start shitposting us. I don't know, Kara. I don't think they're the sheriff going to do this. Maybe someone else will have the balls to do it to this guy.

But I just think it's a waste of their time. Ultimately, you have to do a cost-benefit analysis. And there's no benefit from fighting with him publicly. There isn't. The drama needs to end. There's way too much drama on this company. I don't think they're going to let him off that easy. I think he's acted abominably.

But- I don't think they're going to let him off that easily. You want, all right, we'll see. We'll see about that. I think lawsuits, he's going to be swimming in lawsuits, though. You know what's going to be called shareholder lawsuits. All these shareholders are like, okay, you have significantly damaged my economic well-being by doing ahead, by A, not disclosing that you were buying shares when you were supposed

to. So a lot of people sold shares for less than they would have gotten ahead. He made the disclosure. And a lot of shareholders, there's going to be all sorts of shareholder lawsuits. What will be interesting in discovery is if it goes far is I think we'll get to find out if there were other bidders and who they were. Yeah. I don't think there were though, right? Who knows?

And the other thing is the SEC should have stepped in a long time ago on Elon in a much more significant way. They didn't. They let this happen in a lot of ways, this kind of behavior. So I think if it does go far, the Delaware Chancery Court is the sheriff that is needed. That will probably slap Elon back to last Sunday. But we'll see. We'll see what's going to happen. But nonetheless, I'm so sorry he blocked you.

I will keep you informed of his movements if you'd like, but others can too. It's a cry out for my attention. That's, let's be honest. Let's be honest. He may be insufferable, but he's not a numbskull.

He was right about what you did. Yeah, there you go. But I did not. There you go. Yeah, yeah. They're just, you know, I guess I have a new name for all these people that they get on, which is the Ha Ha Boys.

Like, you know, this is funny. They're the bro-iest bros in Broville. Honestly, they're just so exhausting. They exhaust me in many ways. Anyway, we'll go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the Uber files and we'll speak to a friend of Pivot, Mark Leibowitz, about his new book. Thank you for your servitude. Fox Creative.

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In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige on beige on beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Okay, Scott, we're back. We knew Uber wasn't the world's most ethical company, but new revelations show just how ruthless they were in their efforts to expand into cities around the world and how many top politicians helped them along the way. Color me shocked. Over the week, The Guardian published

the first of many upcoming articles on an investigation of the five-year period when Uber was run by co-founder Travis Kalanick. The investigation is based on what's called the Uber files, which they love to slap on whatever documents they have. A leak of sensitive texts, emails, invoices, briefing notes, and other documents exchanged by top Uber executive bureaucrats and world leaders.

This is no surprise that some of the big revelations include Uber's alliance with Emmanuel Macron when he was France's economy minister. He runs France now. The company used covert tech, which we knew, which they called a kill switch to keep regulators from accessing data during rates. They had done this to Apple. So this was a technique they had to keep information out. Geofencing was one. Travis, and one of the guys who did this is in some legal trouble right now. Travis Kalanick dismissed concerns over driver safety, telling other execs that violence guarantees success.

Not a surprise. Again, sociopathic, I find. I don't know if there's any fallout. And Uber, of course, said, well, that wasn't us. That was then. This is now. A spokesman for Kalanick said Mr. Kalanick never suggested that Uber should take advantage of violence at the expense of driver safety. Any accusation that Mr. Kalanick directed, engaged in, or was involved in any of these activities is completely false.

What do you think? What do you think? Well, there's some advantages to youth. And the reason why venture-backed companies tend to be run by people who are younger than other companies is drive their own cars and pick people up? I mean, why can't we do that? And the one thing I will give Uber, I do love Uber. I interact with it a lot. I remember taking taxis from downtown San Francisco to SFO. And the thing felt like it was about if it went over 50 miles an hour, that it was going to fly apart on the freeway. The driver was rude and it'd be like 110 bucks. It was just so, taxi service in the Bay Area was so terrible. It was such an opportunity. The approach that Travis bought to his business, I mean, one, it sounds like he went overboard. If there's illegal behavior, I think the company should still be subject to that scrutiny. But I think that the press and media and people who have not been in a

startup don't understand is that if a small business is to be successful, it's not about necessarily being just really good people and letting people have two or three days off for pet bereavement and just being awesomely nice people. The startups I've run, and maybe it's because I'm a bad manager, it's been like fucking Vietnam. And I'm not actually equating it to actual Vietnam, but you have to be harsh, scrappy, and almost rapacious. You have to get more,

you have to be more nimble, more aggressive, quite frankly, to a certain extent, in some ways, more violent in the sense that if someone's not doing their job in a startup, you got to fire them and find someone right away. If you're about to lose a client, you have to do anything possible to keep that client. And I'm not suggesting unethical behavior, but there's this cartoon of what it means to have a successful small business. And I've never been in a small business and never run a small business without a certain level of full body contact

violence that a lot of people would shudder at. This kind of crosses a line. Travis pushed it. There's this, and then there's Travis. I mean, he really was incredibly aggressive and pushed lines. The stories we wrote that got a guy fired was around rape victims and sort of using their medical reports unethically. He crossed lines constantly. Whether he crossed legal lines or not is a big question. I think we'll see more of these, but none of this should come as a surprise. Apple was livid about the stuff they were doing. It was all line crossing, almost continual, even their parties. You know, I published a memo where he's like, don't vomit on each other or throw, you know, liquor, throw kegs from the roof. And I can't fuck anybody because I'm the boss, but I would like to, you know, it was sort of like, that's overstating it, but he pushed lines more than any other. He was unusual.

Let me just say, in terms of he took everything and made it bigger, like all those bad tendencies. Just so you know, the company's official statement on the report reads, we have not and will not make excuses for past behavior that's clearly not in line with our present values. Instead, we ask the public to judge us on what we've done over the last five years and what we will do in the years to come. They're just sort of like, goodbye, you know, see you later. I mean, I think this will just go away. These stories are perishable.

And people aren't going to want to, I don't think people are going to revisit the past. And Uber's got bigger problems, specifically ride hailing is a shitty business that can't seem to make money. Yes, that is correct. But still, it's good to know we were all right when we were right. This is the beginning of the revelations. The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists says more than 180 journalists at 40 media outlets will follow up on publishing series investigative reports about the tech tribe. It seems a lot for this company, which has moved on. And again, like you were talking about with Elon, I think these people get to move on. I don't know him, but I went to a party he hosted, and it was like 100 guys and 700 models. So I was so offended, I stayed until 4 a.m. I just found it really inappropriate, Kara. Just awful.

Just awful. Anyway, you know, what I think we have to do now— This is ridiculous. What's your name? What's your name? It's the same Ha Ha Boys. They were the worst. They were toxic.

They were just a toxic, nasty group of pricksicks i don't know how else to put it just honestly and they would go for anyone they went for their own pr people they went they just went they went to the mattresses in a way that was so untoward and grotesque that it was hard to at the time i was like you bunch of fucking assholes like so anyway um so we'll see, but we'll move on. We'll see. I think Travis will be just fine. So now we're going to go to our friend of Pivot. Mark Leibovich is a staff writer at The Atlantic

and author known for his incisive profiles of politicians, media figures, and DC society. His new book is called Thank You for Your Servitude, Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission. He's also a very old friend of mine. Welcome, Mark. Thanks, Cara. It's great to be with you. So, so much to talk about. This is a really funny, funny book. So you didn't focus on Trump, but his enablers. There's a ton of Trump books out there, obviously, and everything, every awful thing he did. So let's, I love that you focus on

the enablers because they're really almost worse in some weird way. So who is the worst enabler of all from your perspective? Kevin McCarthy, hands down. You know, I'd say that Lindsey Graham, maybe 1A or something, but I would say Kevin McCarthy is my personal favorite because he, well, first of all, he knows better, but then they all pretty much know better. And by they, I mean the elected leaders, Republican leaders in Washington, mainly, who despise Donald Trump privately. They are living in fear of him publicly. They will praise him to the nines and are just this panting adulation that you see on TV and have seen for six years. McCarthy is, I think, first among equals because he just works at it so hard. He is constantly

on the phone. He was the first to really do a very public ring kissing down at Mar-a-Lago after January 6th. And he is a pretty good bet to be the Speaker of the House in November after the midterm elections, which will make him the second or third most powerful Republican and chief enabler among equals as we sort of hurdle towards what could be a return engagement from this nightmare in 2024. Why are they doing this? Why does Kevin McCarthy, Lindsey Graham is particularly slavish. What's the end game? Just power? It seems small. Power, it is good for them. Yeah, I think a lot, it's very sad. I think Lindsey Graham is particularly slavish. What's the end game? Just power? It seems small. Power.

It is good for them. Yeah, I think a lot. It's just very sad. I think bottom line, they're very weak people. Donald Trump, when I profiled him in 2015, towards the end of the year, he said, look, these are very weak people, and I'm going to exploit their weakness. And by them at the time was like the other 17 Republicans who he had just gotten off stage with. And I know where there's sees weakness in people. I, and I know how to bring it to my advantage and I will bring it to the country's advantage. You know, essentially

that's his, if he has a superpower and he's got maybe a few and none of them are good, but if shamelessness is one of Donald Trump's superpowers, being able to detect weakness in people that he can dominate is another one. And in this case, he can dominate or did dominate an entire political party with some exceptions, but not many. And continues to in a sort of Scott. Mark, nice to meet you. And thanks for your good work. It struck me when Boris Johnson stepped down that it wasn't him deciding to step down. It was so many of his subordinates and ministers who said, this is unethical. I'm stepping down. And it struck me what a contrast that is to our government, that these folks never step down. They're so horny for proximity to power. I don't know what it is. know what it is, but have you thought about what distinguishes our culture or the construct of our government that creates such an incredible contrast where these people, regardless of how much they're abused publicly by him, regardless of even the laws they may be breaking, continue

to show up and just kiss ass? That's a great question. I mean, I think, I mean, all around us is an example of that of the cowardice that we see in the Kevin McCarthy's and Lindsey Graham's of the world. You know, the British one right now is front and center. But even the contrast to, you know, Cassidy Hutchinson, you know, the Liz Cheney, I guess, in some ways, but just the anonymous sort of state election officials, White House officials who are now beginning to come before the committee showing courage at a very late moment of this, but a very pivotal moment, is, I mean, look, it's a very basic duty. I like the basicness of Cassidy Hutchinson's story. It's like if you're going to tell the truth, if you have a story to tell, tell it.

It's like if you're going to tell the truth, you have a story to tell, tell it. So I don't know what it is about the system, but I do know that that the people that Donald Trump has allowed to remain in power, that he hasn't sort of kicked out of office, have been extremely easy for him to sort of manipulate like silly putty. You know, it's everywhere. And you write about them, everyone being in on the joke, like the entire GOP seemed to say behind foot. They say it to me, the man is an idiot. They literally, I'm sort of like, and the people who say it,

I'm like, I don't know what to do. It's like so ridiculous. And I refuse to talk. I'm like, I'm not talking to you anymore. What, when is that going to actually come out? It's obviously Liz Cheney has spoken the quiet part

out loud a lot. Then they've suffered. Everyone who has done that has suffered, obviously. Maybe that's why they don't say anything. But I even hate that they're saying bad things behind his back. Like, I'm like, what? It gets, yeah, it gets very, very tiresome. And look, as a journalist, these are the things we can, these would be the ethical quandaries we confront. And basically, you know, I could blow the lid off all of this, but that would involve violating every ground rule upset with these people. And even though they might be objectionable

and hateful people, you know, you can't be burning people on your ground rules. I mean, that's, you know, we all know that. So, look, I mean, there are tapes coming out. I mean, people are being caught on tape. McCarthy was caught on tape. Graham was caught on tape. I mean, it's happening a lot. And, you know, look, I think after a while, and a while in this case is seven years, but maybe, you know, shame does creep in or at least exhaustion creeps in and you have some kind of critical mass reached and some change. But right now it's a really depressing picture. I apologize. I'm going to skip books. The book that I know you for is Big Game. And my sons, out of nowhere, are all of a sudden fascinated by the NFL. And I would just be

curious. Mark wrote an interesting book about the Patriots and the NFL. I would just be curious. NFL is the most successful league in the world. What are two or three insights you gleaned from studying the NFL and the team that might surprise people about the NFL? Well, I mean, a lot of them are very seamlessly applicable. But I think, again, insights you gleaned from studying the NFL and the team that might surprise people about the NFL? Well, I mean, a lot of them are very seamlessly applicable. But I think, you know, again, shamelessness is a superpower to use a great way. I mean, I think that that applies in this world. I mean, I really do think that, as you all know, billionaires and politicians from my world, they're not like us. There is always some kind of screw loose. There's either, you know, there's often a pathology or a trauma or something either in their background

or in just the voraciousness of their hunger for whatever it is they're looking for. I mean, people sort of number it very simplistically in wealth or their stock price or whatever, but, number it very simplistically in wealth or stock price or whatever. But, um, you know, it goes so much far beyond those metrics and elections and so forth. But I think, you know, it's, it's just Lindsey Graham sort of spoke to it, maybe explicitly, which is that it's fear of irrelevance. It's fear of being forgotten. I got to put myself out there.

If, if the light's not coming on,'s um you know you're dead i mean i remember in a different context larry king who i did a profiler for the times magazine after he was yeah after he was like kicked off uh cnn a few years later and bin laden was killed a couple years later and he's like oh i have to go somewhere it's a Sunday night. I need a car to come pick me up. I need a red light to come on in front of me, or else I'm dead. I feel like I'm dead. But no, Larry King has nowhere to go. And I think that was the working title for a while. But essentially, it's sort of the same dynamic with people in the public eye, people of great wealth, people of great power. It becomes an addiction. And they also think the rules don't apply to them, right? The rules don't apply.

We were just talking about Elon in that same genre. Let me get back to the book, though. It is the same. It's the power dynamics, whether it's Bob Kraft or any of them. So do any of the Republicans you've spoken to actually want Trump back in the White House? You actually said they want him dead, essentially, die and go away. Yeah, there was a Republican. And dead would work. I mean, this is just so clear. This is away. Yeah, there was a Republican. And dead would work. Dead would work. I mean, this is just so clear.

This is not me talking. This is a Republican congressman saying to me, look, we have no plan about how to deal with this guy going forward, just like we didn't two years ago. Our only plan is just sitting around waiting for him to die. And I was like, are you serious? He goes, I am 100% serious. That is our only plan. I've heard that. Yes.

I mean, it's. Maybe he'll die. Maybe he'll die. I was like, okay., profiles and courage right here. Just sit around. Just do that plan. I mean, you know, Liz Cheney, I mean, at great expense to her. I mean, her career, at least in the Republican Party, is pretty much done. But, you know, and you could say, oh, well, she got a profile and courage award at the Kennedy Library in Boston a month ago. And then she got another award at the Reagan Library in Simi Valley a couple of weeks ago. I mean, and we get a lot of those.

Yeah. So she should. But, you know, what's that going to get you in the real world? I mean, I, you know, I'm all for it. But it's board seats. Yeah, sure. She'll be fine. You know, she also has a security.

Possible presidential run. Oh, absolutely. Possible presidential run. Oh, absolutely. Possible presidential run. Yeah, in which she could probably get 15% of the Republican vote and, you know, be great, though. I'd love to see her voice in there. But, Mark, as you talk to these people, did you get a sense for who they would like to see in that position? Not Donald Trump. I mean, I think, you know, as a default, it's a very lazy default.

They say Ron DeSantis, but they don't know Ron DeSantis. They don't like him. They don't like him. I mean, people, yes, to Republican congressmen and women who served with him. This guy is a weird dude. He does not scale well. He does not wear well. Same with the other Republican governors I talked to. And he's also not a slam dunk to be reelected in Florida at all. And Charlie Crist, his Democratic opponent, is a very flawed character, and they're basically neck and neck. So, can't imagine he would hold up well to... He's funny.

Who, DeSantis or Crist? Crist. Yeah, no. DeSantis is humorless. That's why he's not going to win. Yeah, Crist is like the host at the diner I go to. He's a very lovely guy. And, you know, Florida diner owner. But no, he's impressive, though. He's a former governor. You know, the expression, you're likable enough,

she's likable enough with Hillary Clinton, as you know, he's not likable. And I think that's going to... He's a weird dude. He's not likable. And he's not, I hate, you know, he doesn't smile enough. They say like, oh, he's Trump with a brain. I mean, he's obviously very smart, but he... No, Trump is funny. Trump is very charming to his audience. I mean, if you're into that. Even though he's appalling, but he's also funny. All right, let's pivot to the January 6th hearings, Latt, to finish up. And Biden, do you think, a lot of people do think there really has been, they've gotten, Liz Cheney has gotten some real licks, especially Liz Cheney has got some real licks in. Bannon now says he's testifying.

What do you think the impact? I think they're playing it beautifully. They are. This committee has done a great job. I mean, first of all, I do think the impact certainly beats my expectations. It's also a great template of how a hearing should be run. I mean, don't let everyone give your little speeches and then give all 20 people or even six, however many people, 10 people in this case, a turn to talk.

You know, very short, directed questions, a couple of people doing the questioning, you know, very thematic presentations, video friendly. And, you know, they've gotten a lot of good material to work with. So I like that it's making the right people nervous. All right, Scott, finish up. I know you want to ask a Biden question. Scott has decided Biden is too old to run. I'm just from an insider who or my sense is you are an honest bystander with great access. I'd just be curious to get your rundown on how the Democratic side of this is shaping up in terms of it feels to me like everybody's publicly says, just as they say they like Trump and privately say they don't, I get the sense on the democratic side,

everyone's saying they're supporting Joe Biden. And meanwhile, they're getting their own, you know, Kamala Harris for president posters ready. What are your thoughts on the democratic side? I'm hearing the same thing, except without the Kamala part. You know, the, I mean, first of first, yeah, Joe Biden's too old. I mean, I'm happy that my mother stopped driving at age 78 or 79, however old he is. And I don't want her to be president either.

It's obviously not an optimal situation. You know, there's no natural heir apparent. I would, you know, personally, I've heard, I've talked to a ton of people who, and some have said this publicly, and some more will say it publicly, I think, as Biden becomes more entrenched in his, you know, mid-30s approval rating, and just the sort of swoon continues, is, look, he really needs to step aside and throw this open to a field of, you know, Gavin Newsom's or Stacey Abrams or AOC or, you know, J.B. Pritz or whoever. I mean, just like, just anyone new, just let, let, let, just bring, just open the gates and you cannot be as afraid

of Donald Trump as the Republican Party is. because basically the inherent risk aversion that put Joe Biden, that made him the Democratic nominee a few years ago, is a product of Trump, too. It's like, no, we can't afford to lose this. We're going to throw Grandpa out there and hope he can take one more spin around the block. Yeah, because he beat him once. He beat him once. And the others didn't. Yes, it makes him. And the other thing is, why should he give up power on some level? Like, he got to be president. Yeah, let someone beat him. Screw you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the complaints about his age are not being made to Biden. I

just think they're stating objective truths. He is down. 64% of Democratic voters said they would prefer a new standard bearer in the 2024. It's a new poll. And also, he's down at 33%. Although, I don't think people are necessarily linking him to some of the candidates. He's not dragging candidates down as much as people thought. Yeah, maybe. Sort of. It depends on the—

Not in Georgia, not in other places. You know, we'll see. We'll see. Is there anyone we haven't mentioned? I mean, there's always—Kara and I always like to bet on horses, but typically in this point of the cycle, if you bet on a horse, that only guarantees they're not going to win. Are there any unknowns we're not talking about? Yeah. Remember your bet?

Speaking of Elon love, remember your Beto love? We love Beto. I love Beto. No, we didn't. We didn't. Kara didn't. He's tall and he's handsome, which makes him 80%. No, Kara called him a man boy who's not qualified for president. Means he should be president. Tall and handsome is important for our leaders, Kara. Anyways, Mark, go ahead. Well, yeah, I mean, I think Chris Murphy of Connecticut, he's been very successful in the gun control, you know, getting this done. Very charming guy. I like him a lot. A lot of people like him a lot.

Amy Klobuchar doesn't get mentioned a lot, but probably should. She had a decent race the last time, you know, checks a lot of boxes, definitely qualified. You know, so I'm sure there are, I mean, I don't know. Mitch Landrieu is a name I always hear. Me too. What do you think of like a Mark Cuban or even as someone like a Jon Stewart? Do you think that Donald Trump has paved the way for kind of famous private sector candidates? Yeah, it would be interesting. But man, if Donald Trump paved the way, it's a rocky pavement in my mind. I mean, oh, boy. I mean, that is, I mean, obviously, Donald Trump is sort of a unique figure.

But I'm, you know, one thing I do appreciate about Joe Biden is he kind of knows how to do this. You know, Jared Polis of Colorado is another person you hear a lot. So, yeah, I mean. I'm on Team Cuban because I'm his enabler. All right, fine. I'm just... I think you'd be hysterical. The theme of enablers is actually is a nice little... My goal is to get Scott and I on Air Force One quite a bit.

That's my whole goal. You know what? That could probably be arranged if the right things happen. But first, Curry must emerge. Yes, must emerge. Maybe Elon will run. No, he can't, actually, because he's not an American citizen. I mean, he's an American citizen. He's not born here. I'm going to be ambassador to Australia. Anyways, they'll love me. They will love me. I'll throw great parties. Go to Australian football games. All right, last question, Mark.

What are you writing about next? What's your next topic? Well, I have this book thing for the next couple of weeks. Still trying to figure that out. I mean, I have, I might write about, you know, I want to write a story about baseball or basketball. This is my little thing. I need a little break sometimes after a big sort of exhausting topic and cycle. You know, if you can jump off for a little bit, right? And, you know, I have a little more freedom now.

The Atlantic, the New York Times was much more. Politics. Yeah. So, you know, maybe I'll get the freedom to do that. But, you know, vacation in August, if there's time. But right now, I'm just sort of focused on this thing. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks for your servitude. It's out now. Mark, we really appreciate it. Can I just say that shamelessness remains a superpower? Nothing has changed.

Nothing like this has changed in the last 15 minutes. Thank you guys for having me. It's good work. It's a good book. Congrats on your success. Thanks. All right, Scott, one more quick break. That was great.

We'll be back for predictions. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month at Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Scott, let's hear a good prediction, a nice fat prediction. Besides the fact that you and Elon will be getting married, I'm very excited. I've got to pick out what I want to wear. Go ahead.

You know, I'm glad that he's finally becoming more in touch with his emotions. And his anger towards me, I get it. Anyways, look, my prediction is a boring one. You believe, and I think you're on the side of most people, that they are going to look at this drawn-out, ugly mess and want to just get out and move on. My prediction is that's not the case, that they have a lot on their side here. I think Discovery is going to be really awful for Elon. really awful for Elon. And so my prediction is this is going to go on further and that this lunch, I think that Elon is going to be served a colder lunch than people are currently anticipating. The other thing I think will be really interesting is I do think there were likely, and I think they're going to have to disclose this if the case goes long enough,

there were other suitors who wouldn't pay this price but would say we'd be interested in talking give me a name don't be like all coy uh disney salesforce private equity firms oh chapik's not wandering into his this neighborhood no way um you might be right um i said i asked mark benioff directly he said no like he wasn't even he didn't even go, well, you know. Well, given also Brett, the co-CEO is the chairman, it would have created all sorts of issues. I think it's going to be hard. They're going to have to be on their own. Actually, I would recommend a Bill Cohen column

speak about this. Being on their own might be the best thing that ever happened. They could make it into, you know, they had some freedom and some ability to do some things. They could do pretty well. They could. They could. They could. So we'll see.

It's certainly a wake-up call for this company, which has sort of floated around for the longest time. But we'll see. I'm going to take the other side of that. I think they're going to settle. Yeah, that's what you said. And it's also an opportunity to do what they should have done a long time ago, and that was move to subscription and actually clean up the platform. But anyways.

And payment. I think your payment idea was important. I just know these board members, and they are not pugnacious. Not one of them. Really? Not one of them. No. Maybe Egon Durbin.

Is he still on the board? I don't even know if he's still on the board. He's a big, important person. He's treated them like such just – he literally has abused these people. I think – no. I think I know almost all of them, and I think they're like, let's has abused these people. I think, no. I think, I know almost all of them, and I think they're like, let's get this person away. I think they would like him to sell his shares

and not buy anymore. That might be a condition. That would be something I would, you don't want him near you anymore. I still don't understand why they don't kick him off the platform. And by the way, if Treeland doesn't buy this, Trump is never coming back, and they're not going to wade into that.

They've already gotten the damage from not letting Trump kicking him off. They're never letting him back on. That's the end of it for Trump. So this is, we'll see who's right. And I think the good money or the smart money right now is on your side, but you're taking it. Our prediction is, I think this is going to go longer and be uglier for Elon than people are currently saying. And I think you're saying cooler heads will prevail and they will settle and move on. They're very reticent people. These people are not like, fuck this guy.

They're just not. So we'll see where it goes. We'll see where it goes, but it'll be a bit. It'll be a bit. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. Anyway, beat us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Lara Naim

and Evan Engel and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Indretot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Block me harder, you bitch!