Pivot - Twitter vs. Substack, Stormy Daniels, and Jennifer Senior On Grief

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

SPOILERS: Succession. Jill Biden makes a rare gaffe after the NCAA championships. Dueling court rulings could endanger access to abortion pills. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has a secret wealthy benefactor with a not-so-secret collection of Nazi memorabilia. Kara and guest host Olivia Nuzzi (New York Magazine) unpack her latest cover story on Stormy Daniels, plus Elon Musk's ham-fisted fight against Substack. Author Jennifer Senior joins to discuss "On Grief," her story about loss, mourning, and memory. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway is vacationing with the Supreme Court. So today I'm joined by Olivia Nuzzi, New York Magazine's Washington correspondent. Good to have you here, Olivia. Thanks for having me, Cara. So there's so much to talk about, but let's first get to your cover story about Stormy Daniels. She does a tarot card reading for you and it's not very happy. I was very disturbed by it. She mentioned when I got there to see her that she does readings. And I knew that she has a kind of ghost hunting show called Spooky Babes. And she's very into all that stuff now. And I was worried I'd be pushing my luck by asking her to do an Oracle Deck reading. But she was game to do it. And it was shockingly emotional. I did not,

I really was not a believer going in. And I still don't know that I am. But it was shockingly emotional. I did not, I really was not a believer going in, and I still don't know that I am, but it was surprising. Have you ever done one? Yeah, it doesn't affect me the way it affected you. So it was all about sort of storm clouds, speaking of stormy. You had a great reveal in the article also. She's in close touch with Mary Trump, Kathy Griffin, and E. Jean Carroll, which is like some kind of weird Avengers kind of thing. What was your takeaway from your story? You know, I had spent some time with her in 2018 when she first became famous in this way about this story.

And I was so struck by how sharp she is and how funny she is and how remarkably well she was handling this extraordinarily bizarre set of circumstances. And she was adamant at that time, I am not a victim, I am not a victim, I am not a pawn, I am not a victim. And I was surprised, but certainly could not blame her this time around. She's having a much more difficult time dealing with all of this. It's much more taxing emotionally. Post-insurrection, there really are no boundaries for a lot of these people anymore. And she's under constant threat and concerned and worried for her child, worried for her husband, worried for her own life. And she's also just been flattened by all of this. She was talking about how-

Right, and it never ends. Never ends. It never, ever ends. And this is something that Kathy was saying during our interview. Just people think, people will come up and say, oh, that thing a couple of years ago, you know, that was so crazy.

And she's like, oh, no, no, no. It's ongoing and it doesn't seem like it will ever, ever, ever end. And this is something that they have to deal with forever, yeah. Being affiliated with Trump. Being affiliated, yeah. So one of the things is, she sort of painted a very dire picture of this guy's not going away. And at the same time, you went to the Trump arraignment that day.

New York's hottest club. New York, the arraignment. Talk to me about how you feel, because you've been covering, you must be exhausted too, because this never ends. You've been covering him for years and years. I would say, I was talking to Catherine Miller from the New York Times earlier today, and she made a joke that she calls this the there are only 40 people alive theory of the world. That it's just the same cast of people. This is something that I find extremely disorienting. Nobody goes away. They all know each other. And you link them all together.

They all know each other. They're all from reality television, or they end up on reality television. Or dancing. Or dancing. A dancing competition. A lot of surprisingly good dancers in this cast of people, I have to say. Would you ever do that? No. Are you sure? No, I'm sure. I think you would win.

I went to dancing school. I can dance, but I wouldn't. I think you would win. I went to dancing school. I can dance, but I wouldn't. But it's as though time has collapsed into itself. And there are these kind of multiple timelines occurring at once. And it is very hard to keep track of everything and to keep track of everyone and to know where one storyline begins and the other ends. And I think Stormy Daniels is this uniquely American character who's in the middle of it and having a similar difficulty. And with Trump, I mean, I felt like, you know how eels go back to the place of their birth to die?

No, no, but go ahead. That's sort of how I felt, you know, watching him land in Queens that day. I sort of just thought there's something so beautifully complete about this. And I felt like I just had to be there, you know? Right, right. But it's not over. It's not over. According to Stormy Daniels and her tarot card readings, she seems quite perturbed that it's not over, that he's not down. And she was really heartbroken by it. She's saddened by it. And she did not seem happy at all, because if it's not ending for him, then it's not ending for her or for any of us.

Right. That's exactly right. Well, it's an amazing story. It was fantastic. And you're continuing to cover Trump? Of course. I have to see this thing through. I mean, I'm not happy about it, but I have to see this thing through. I would love to cover literally anything else. But unfortunately, I will be seeing this thing through however long that takes. And any predictions right now at the beginning of the cycle? Is there anyone else you're following that you're really interested in? I mean, I'm keeping tabs. I'm keeping tabs on everyone. Keeping tabs. I'm going to go write a DeSantis piece after this.

Good luck with that. Good luck with that. The response from his office was basically, go fuck yourself. Yeah, exactly. You know, he's unlikable. That's my take. And short. Well, not with those little block heels that he wears. He wears taller heels than I do. Yes, I know. But short and unlikable. I'm short. I am short and unlikable. No, you're very tall. Just very tall woman. You project very tall. Okay, well, I'm not. Anyway, go read Olivia's cover piece and its cover of New York Magazine this week. Really wonderful, as usual, fantastic writing and reporting.

Thank you. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about. Today, we'll talk about dueling court decisions around abortion pills, also Twitter's latest attempt to lock out competitors. And we'll speak with Pulitzer Prize winner Jennifer Senior about loss, grief, and memory. And I'd love you two to talk about writing long form articles because you're both sort of experts in that area and fantastic at it. And she certainly is. Well, you are too. But first, a gaffe has one of the Bidens in hot water, but it's not the one you think. First Lady Dr. Jill Biden stirred up controversy after

she suggested the winners and losers of the women's NCAA basketball champions come to the White House. The final game, Louisiana State University defeated the team from the University of Iowa by quite a lot. Most of the players on LSU's teams are black, though Iowa team is mostly white. Critics say the first lady's comments disrespect a historic win for the largely black team. On The Daily Show, Desi Lydic said the move would, quote, honor white losers the same as black winners. Is this a big issue? Are you surprised? She never sort of makes a mistake. It's sort of a role reversal for her and her husband, right?

There is something deeply comic about it. But I am surprised. She's extraordinarily careful and seems to put a tremendous amount of energy into avoiding something just like this. this amount of energy into avoiding something just like this. But it, you know, I think it was a very grandmotherly English teacher, everyone gets a trophy sort of comment. I can't imagine that she even realized that she was stepping in it. But I would have loved to be in the room when someone told her. Yeah, yeah. Any effect? I don't know. I mean, I think it's hard to predict how these things will reverberate and whether or not Joe Biden calling the coach and calling the players, whether or not that will smooth things over in the end. But I thought it was very

interesting that there was no hesitation in really going after them for it, right? I mean, it was sort of this pure expression of anger. Yeah, even I know this. You don't invite the second place team. I know this. I was like, what? Like, hey, no. And there's a lot of, you know, everyone was all up in their arms about the dunking and

the face thing and the hand thing. That's what they do in sports. I was like, you only invite the winners, it seems like. It's very, also, it's very American to do that, although it's very nice to invite everybody. That's why you win. So you get to go by yourself. Yeah, of course. I don't know.

How is she doing? Is she feeling good about it? He's obviously running for re-election, I think, or maybe not. But that's what most people think at this point. This White House, if you can believe it, is very different from the last one. And one of the fundamental ways that they are different is that it is pretty shut down. There are not a lot of the way that, you know, you would sort of just stick your head out your window and like 11 people would emerge to tell you how Donald Trump was feeling. That does not really happen here. And even the people who would know about that sort of thing, I think, are extraordinarily protective, which is another way of saying I have no idea, Kara.

No one is telling me how she's feeling. All right. But you assume he's going to run, correct? I do. Yeah. I mean, I would be surprised. Oh, well, I certainly don't think that this would be the thing to determine that he would not run. But who knows? I mean, smaller events have had monumental consequences in our politics. Yeah. They're pretty functional, probably. I mean, all White Houses are dysfunctional, but presumably this one's more functional. But it's a low bar. It's a very low bar. Speaking of low bars, Clarence Thomas says he did nothing wrong, which is not accurate, after a report revealed that the Supreme Court justice traveled on private jets and

super yachts paid for by a wealthy Republican donor. One trip being over $500,000. Thomas never disclosed the gifts, which he received over a period of decades. Now Democrats are calling for action with different degrees. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse wants Chief Justice Roberts to investigate, which will not be happening, while AOC says that Thomas should be impeached, which will probably not be happening. And the Wall Street Journal's opinion page came to Thomas' defense. There's also attention on the man who paid for those trips, Texas real estate billionaire Harlan Crowe, who does sound like a villainous billionaire by name, the name itself. Crowe collects Nazi memorabilia, including a signed copy of Mein Kampf and a painting by Hitler. He reportedly keeps one, that one besides another, by George Bush.

Not a lot of context from what I understand. What a guy, I mean. What a guy. Like, nobody's focused on the, everyone's focused on the Nazi memorabilia now and not on the fact that he's getting a lot of stuff from a rich guy. So, what do we think of this? This seems not a surprise and yet pretty awful on some level. Yeah, before this, I had heard at a dinner party about how he loves traveling in his RV and they go on vacations in this RV. And I thought that was so fascinating.

And a dream of a story for me would be to embed on this RV with them. And little did I know that. With the Thomases? Yes. Little did I know that, in fact, that is only his Man of the People vacation. And he was having way more luxurious vacations. Yeah. But it is, I mean, I think it's sort of, it's remarkable to watch everyone learn in real time that there is really no system of accountability for the court. For the court whatsoever.

They can do whatever they want. For whatsoever. I mean, I don't know what it would take for there to be some sort of penalty or some effort to impeach. But it certainly does not inspire faith in the system. Yeah, it absolutely doesn't. I mean, I think it's not a surprise. He also has funded all kinds of things, including publications, this guy Harlan, and a bunch of things. And so a lot of people came to his defense.

He's a nice guy. And I was like, I don't think it's about that. I think it's about him taking him on vacations, even if they're friends. It's a whole lot of, you know, gimmies that this guy is getting. I think like the promise of the court or anyone in a position like that is that you will hold yourself to a higher standard. And the system does not need to have in place guardrails for you to act ethically. Yeah, yeah. That's a very good point.

for you to act ethically. Yeah, yeah. That's a very good point. But we did not factor in when making the system that all manner of personalities would be finding themselves there. Yeah, it's such a Washington story. I literally felt like I was in an episode of Scandal. I'm like, okay, here we are.

You know what I mean? Again, and not a surprise, but sort of yuck, really. Yeah, very icky. And then I want to know who everybody else is hanging out with. That's the kind of thing. They're not hanging out with you? No, Yeah, very icky. And then I want to know who everybody else is hanging out with. That's the kind of thing. They're not hanging out with you?

No, no, I'm not. No, they're not. I've never been on a super yacht. But now I kind of want to see this guy's house. A lot of people have been to this guy. He didn't hide away all his collectibles. I want to go to the Garden of Dictators. That's where I would like to go to.

Is it like a statue garden? Yes. He collects heads from across the world, you know, when fascism and communism fall, he goes and gets one of the heads. Like, they're all over the place in Eastern Europe, if you go there, and Russia, and so he collects them and puts them in a garden near his house. What do you think the shipping

cost is like? I don't think he cares. I think he's a billionaire, so it doesn't I shall have the head of Stalin in my garden, the broken-sided head. You do see them all over the place there many years ago, but they're probably gone now and rubble. But he's got them. That's not something I would decorate my garden with. I'd put gnomes in, perhaps, but I don't think I'd put Ceausescu.

I don't think I'd want any disembodied head lying around. Yeah. Well, there's full statues, too. There's full statues, too. That changes everything. That changes everything. Anyway, strange man. Deeply. Nothing's going to happen. Nothing's full statues too. That changes everything. Anyway, Strange Man. Deeply. Nothing's going to happen.

Nothing's going to happen here. It's just, it really does feel like an episode of Scandal or Succession. Did you watch the ending? Of course. I thought it was brilliant. Plot spoiler. I'm going to warn people. Plot spoiler. It was brilliant. It was really, it was, I had a good interview with Brian Cox last week. Really? I thought that the

way that they handled just the awkwardness of death was, I've never seen anything like that portrayed. And I thought that was really, really brilliant. Just the... Yeah, it was sort of in real time. You were experiencing it while they were. I think that's really what was in the way

that was explained to me is that was the whole goal of it. And it was beautiful. I think the acting was like, acting. I also love the subtleties of no one in this family knowing how to hug each other properly. Yes. Yeah, like pat, pat, pat. Just grabbing Connor's arm or just attempting to do this three-child hug.

I thought it was handled so beautifully. Yeah, the only one that worked was the last shot of them getting married. That was actually very natural. Yeah, well, he's the only one that doesn't need love. Yeah, and so he has it in a weird way. That was just a really beautiful shot, I thought. I thought the whole

thing was great. Although Brian Cox really wanted to have a death scene. He really did. He was kind of pissed. He was like, what the fuck? What the fuck? Back of my head on the toilet. What fuck what the fuck carrie he kept saying it was very funny but i loved how they did that they were scared to tell oh god i loved how they handled it without you know you never saw his full body no right you know he's diminished and out of the picture literally yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great. Are we on the Succession podcast now? I feel like we're on the Succession podcast.

No, we're not. No, I'm just saying. I'm just curious. Everyone's talking about it today, so we have to talk about it. Okay, it's actually getting huge. People got real bothered by it in a good way. It really impacted them. I had to leave the room.

I found it emotional. Oh, wow. Huh. That's interesting. Okay. You cried with Stormy Daniels, and now you're crying at Succession. Interesting. I'm crying a lot these days.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness, Olivia. Get it together. When was the last time you cried? Oh, 1969? 1969 or something. Nice. 70.

That's long before you existed, Olivia. Okay, let's get to our first big story. That's long before you existed, Olivia. Okay, let's get to our first big story. Access to abortion pills could be in jeopardy after a pair of dueling court rulings came down last week. First, a Texas judge ruled that the FDA should never have approved mifeprestone, a drug used to terminate pregnancies, among other uses. That ruling is on pause pending appeal, but if it's upheld, that could take an essential abortion drug off the legal market in the U.S. Meanwhile, a second court ruled that the same drug must be kept on the market in 17 states plus D.C. that sued to expand access. So many

Republicans were very quiet after the ruling. They've been getting hit hard, including in Wisconsin, where they lost that judgeship that was critically important to them. Have they realized limiting abortion access is a losing issue? Talk about it from a political point of view. In a poll of last year's midterm voters, about 60%, they were angry, angry over the Supreme Court ruling. Can you talk about it from a political perspective? It's this tricky predicament where it is an animating force for both sides, and it is what they have been campaigning on for so long, right? It has been animating the right, and especially the evangelical right, for more than 30 years. People have a long memory about this. Women have a long memory about this. I think, remember in the midterms, everyone's saying, oh, well, will people not wanting to be beating their chests about this, because it had such negative repercussions in these last elections.

So will it continue to do that? It seems to be continuing to fuel quite a lot of voting. I think so. By people. And now this is, it just keeps going. It keeps going with this trend. They seem to be pushing it far too far. Florida, six weeks, and you're writing about DeSantis. That's something else. You don't even, as someone who's been pregnant, I didn't know for eight weeks, I think, something a long time. A lot of people don't know for a very long time. are their lives in danger, their children's lives in danger. Those stories are not just going to go away. And the more that time goes on and there are real people in danger because of this who are not political activists, right, who are not acting to try to help Joe Biden or any Democrat. This is about health care.

And I think that it becomes clearer and clearer how radical this position is, the more that those stories are reported on. Do you talk to Republicans? I mean, I know Trump was one that said, this is too far. It's not a good thing. Many people had said that. But he's not a Republican. Do they get it? It's hard to talk about Trump. He was pro-choice very recently. Right. But he was with the evangelicals.

But he was. Yeah, but he then became the opposite just for political expediency. Yeah, of course. But he had warned about this ruling in the correct way. Do Republicans get that? And do you think it's going to continue to be a big issue? Everyone says it's not. And I keep saying, oh, yeah. Who's saying it's not? It doesn't change. During the midterms, they thought there was going to be a red wave. And I was like, no, and the abortion thing was over and this and that. And I was like, oh, yeah. Who's saying it's not? It doesn't change. During the midterms, they thought there was going to be a red wave. And I was like, no, and the abortion thing was over and this and that. And I was like, no, it's not.

It's not over by a long stretch. I just think there's this disconnect where on the right and among certain segments of the kind of pundit class in the kind of centrist left, people are talking about this as if it is only a political issue, as if it is only about religious fervor and people who believe in protecting life. And it's just not about that. It is about healthcare. And I think that that is where the disconnect is, where people are making political predictions, talking about this as if it is just a religious right wing evangelical issue and not realizing that no, actually, everyone is affected by this. If you know a woman, you will probably be affected by this at some point. So I think that's where that disconnect is from. It's the way that we talk about this and in this sort of reductive way in our pundit class.

And yes, it's still an effective issue for Democrats. Should they keep drilling down? I mean, the race for Wisconsin Supreme Court looked a lot like a political campaign, big spending, endorsements from Planned Parenthood. Candidates talked about their political beliefs. The judge in the Texas case, Matthew Kazmarek, is a Trump appointee with a long history of anti-abortion advocacy. According to the Washington Post, his ruling used the term abortionists and referred to fetuses as unborn children. Is it a good political thing to press in? I mean, Biden definitely weighed in on this against Kaz Mark. what they actually believe, right? It's sort of conveniently, unlike with Republicans who are sort of at turns being quiet about this now, it is both a winning issue and something that is very much part of the platform and has been for a long time. So I think that they will continue to campaign on this. Do you see any Republican using it in a way that's positive to them and trying to appeal?

Or is it impossible in the modern Republican Party to be anything but for the overturn of Donald? I have not seen a ton of nuance on this on the right. Have you? No, not at all. I'm sort of thinking it's an opportunity. Yeah. I kept thinking it was an opportunity. You know, I'm trying to think of one, well, there's a few Republicans, but they're not being loud about it in any way whatsoever. Right. Well, it's not really popular to be like a civil libertarian anymore among on the right. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see where it goes. I think it's gonna be a potent political issue for a long time to come. Yeah, I agree. Olivia, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Twitter once again locks the doors to keep people from leaving. We'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Jennifer Senior, about her Pulitzer Prize winning story that inspired her new book.

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remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Carpet in the bathroom. Like, why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. made it harder for users to engage with tweets that mentioned Substack. Eventually, Twitter blocked searches for the word Substack, which I noticed. Twitter CEO Elon Musk claims the actions were necessary because Substack tried to download a massive portion of the Twitter database. Substack's CEO denies the claim. I'm with Substack's CEO on that. So are you on Twitter a lot? Should writers stay on? I mean, I view it as a necessary evil to continue to have an account there. I'm not really, I mean, I'm active on, depending on how much I am procrastinating, I might be active on Twitter. Now I mostly use it just to

share my work because I have an audience there that I've, you know, I've been on Twitter since I was 16, Cara. I know, but that was like last week. I mean, I have really complicated feelings about it because I think that it taught me how to write in some ways. How so? I mean, it taught me about brevity. When it was 140 characters, it was like a writing bootcamp in some ways. And it's How so? Matt Taibbi quit last week after he makes his living off of Substack, but he was also one of the handpicked journalists covering the shitty Twitter files. Covering. He defended Musk as recently as he went. Covering, yeah. Covering is a broad term, and journalist is a broad term in that case.

Well, he is a journalist. Come on. Yes, he is a journalist. No, I'm talking about the Twitter files. I'm sorry. They didn't do a very good job. They did a bad job of reporting. That's all I'll say.

It was weird. It was weird. It was cherry-p't do a very good job. They did a bad job of reporting. That's all I'll say. It was weird. It was weird. They didn't, it was cherry-picked in a lot of ways. What about the use for politicians and the media that covers them? Because that's where it really, that's where it really comes alive in a lot of ways. It's the Hollywood doesn't use it that much, except for marketing. And fewer and fewer people are using it. The numbers are going down.

But the political media nexus is quite strong, no matter like people dunking on each other or putting things out or having a reaction to a reaction, etc. Right. How important is it still? I mean, I think it is important. I think it's important for that class of people, the way that Instagram is important for Hollywood, right? It's this direct line where you don't have to filter through any media intermediaries, right? So it's very attractive for politicians or for any type of activist trying to speak directly to people. I don't think it's going to go away, but what do you think? I mean, why is this, why is he handling this so poorly? I don't know. I'm not, everyone thinks

there's always a plan with him. I don't think there is. Really? I think he operates completely as an id. No, it's all id. What he feels that day, whether he decides to cover up the W on the Twitter sign, make titter, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Did he do that? Yeah, he did that, yeah. All it says to me is hug me.

My parents didn't. Would you hug him? No. You wouldn't? No. If he was crying and he asked you for a hug, you would not hug Elon Musk? I would not. I would not hug him.

What would you do? Would you walk away? Say, you should get some help. That's what I would say. You need some help. If he was asking you for a hug, he would be asking for help. Go hug your children. Do you think, I'm imagining a succession style hug,

frankly, like a awkward. Yes, that's what it would be. I would do that. I would hug Stormy Daniels, though. I certainly would. Well, of course. Who wouldn't hug Stormy Daniels? Exactly, exactly. I don't know, but let's move off the hugs for a second. I just want to, I'm just curious, when you think about like it being used like by Trump, he still gets on it by using True Social. How do you follow him there? Do you just look at Truth Social? Well, they actually banned me. They removed my account from Truth Social after my last... Why? Did the Chinese government have a problem with you? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Allegedly. I wrote a story about Donald Trump around Christmas time where he was on the cover.

Yes, it was good. And he did not like the story. And I cheekily used my Truth Social account that I had just to monitor him. And also this account called Hot Girls Who Golf. Those are the only accounts that I followed on there. But I tweeted or I truthed, whatever the hell they call it,

at him with the article. Like, you know, thank you for your time or something like that. And they immediately removed my account. Wow. So I haven't looked at it since then. I thought they were for free speech. I'm shocked and appalled. It turns out that they are not for free speech, Kara.

Jason Miller is getting a text from me in a second. Oh, God. Well, that's better you than me. That's true. Although I don't even think he's running it. So do you think it's important for him to have these? It doesn't matter. Not at all.

I don't know. I mean, Twitter was so essential to his political rise. It really was. And it was sort of like it was his art form, right? I mean, this man is a frustrated, failed artist. And we know that that never ends well in history. And he really, I mean, he was perfect for that platform. And fatally, with fatal consequences.

And it's weird that he is not on it. And I kind of assumed that they would find a way to navigate whatever the complicated factors are with Truth Social. Yeah, but he's not on it, but he hasn't gone back to Twitter. He's not, yeah. He seems to like where he is. He likes his new little home. Well, or is he there because he has to be there because of whatever the intricacies of his deal are? Yeah, I think he likes it. I think he likes the big all caps, screaming, vomiting kind of thing.

Look, I think from him, it's not really a difference, right? Because he's probably, he says to his assistant or whatever underling is meandering about his haunted mansion. He says, oh, you know, post this, post this all caps on this word,

exclamation, enjoy. Stormy Daniels is a horse face, exclamation point, send it now and that process it's not as if he's sitting there on his phone typing these things out and reading the replies although they do well they will print out replies and bring them to him so he can see which is a process that's existed since he was in trump tower so he's not sitting there with his little fingers in his haunted mansion little Little fingers typing out. Yeah. So do you think in the election this is going to matter? And the nexus between Musk and him is important because there is a nexus now. Elon's moved towards Trump in a way that's significant. told me that he would be back on Twitter, that they did have plans for him to come back.

I'm sure that they are waiting until they want to level a particularly devastating insult at Ron DeSantis or whoever else emerges, and they will arrive on that platform and he will have some sort of classically Trumpian missive to welcome himself back. And it's good that Elon's running it for them now, right? They're pretty thrilled. I mean, you know better than I do. I mean, do you think that they're similar personality-wise? Well, Elon's obviously a lot smarter, obviously, I mean, by a factor of a lot.

But, you know, Trump has some more sense. Yeah, I do. I think they didn't have very good—they just need attention almost 24-7 and it's sad and pathetic and also dangerous. Do you worry about your data on there following you? I don't put anything on there now. I wouldn't put my credit card. To pay for Twitter Blue? You wouldn't pay for Twitter Blue? I mean, again, I have been on there since I was literally a child. I assume that my privacy has been violated on there for a very long time and will continue to be violated. But I don't think anything is private. Ah, the young people.

I don't think anything is private. I don't think there's anything that you type. I'm not paying for Twitter. Well, of course not. I mean, I think that being verified is mortifying, and I've always thought that it was mortifying. So this has aged very well in the last few weeks, my refusal to get verified. Yes, yes, yeah. Well, here we are.

All right. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Jennifer Senior is a staff writer at The Atlantic where she won the Pulitzer Prize for her 2021 story, What Bobby McIlvain Left Behind. That story is now available as a book titled On Grief. Welcome, Jennifer Senior. Hey, Kara. How are you? Good. Glad to have you here and talking to us. Your book is wonderful, as I suspected. The story was amazing. I'm going to have you start. Walk us through your story. Broadly, it's about a family mourning the loss of their son who died on 9-11.

It's also about memory and the act of journaling. It's also about misinformation, which I think I found really jarring. So tell us about it and what prompted you to do this. Well, the crudest answer is Bobby McIlvain, who died on September 11th, was my brother's roommate. 11th, was my brother's roommate. Both in college and when they were young men, they were roommates for eight straight years, almost to the day, right? They threw their duffel bags on the same bunk bed in early September, and then he died on September 11th, eight years later. I knew him. I adored him. It was devastating when he died. And what kind of led me to the story were a couple of things. I mean, it was the 20th anniversary, but those are kind of fake pegs.

But the Atlantic was doing something, and Jeff called me, Jeff Goldberg, the editor, and said, do you happen to know any families to whom this might have happened? Do you happen to have any, you know, we have like people thinking about like the policy and foreign policy and blah, blah, blah. And I was, and I said, you know, I do. And at first I thought I was pitching a marriage story because as you point out, you were flicking at the misinformation thing. I thought I was going to be writing a story about, initially, Bobby's father became a huge truther. He embraced all the 9-11 conspiracy theories. And in fact, he started tailoring his own, made them really bespoke, really arcane, got deep in the weeds about really, and the marshes about some really weird stuff. And his wife is like totally indifferent to this stuff. She would walk across the street

and around the corner and then go halfway across the country to never have to think about 9-11, much less its origins and all that stuff, right? So I thought, you know, screw all of the stories about like, how do you get along with your Trump-loving uncle at Thanksgiving? Like, how do you stay married after 20 years, right? After you've lost your son and negotiate that unbelievable gulf, right? That just seems so much bigger and so much more challenging. So I thought I was going to be writing a story about a marriage, but then I also realized there was a story to be written that was maybe even more to me, I don't know if it's more beguiling because I'm a writer or whatever. Bobby was this diarist.

He was this, he wanted to be a novelist. He kept all these diaries since he was a teenager. And his last diary was sitting on his desk when he died. And his father in this total fugue state gave that diary away to the woman that Bobby was about to propose to because she saw that her name was all over it and she wanted it. And he was trying to be kind, right? But after he did it, his wife was like, how could you have done that? How could you have given away the last thing our kid ever wrote when this was a chance to hear his voice one last time? It was fresh conversation. Oh my God, are you kidding? She was so broken by this. And she was desperate to get this diary back. And she asked this woman, her name was also Jen, you know, would you give me this diary back? And she wouldn't give it back. And yeah, and I wanted that story back. And that's the story. Yeah, that's the story. Yeah. So Olivia, you also write long form and very, very pungently, same way, I think. What would you have done with this story? Have you written a story like this?

I don't think I've ever written anything this tricky. I mean, it sounds like an impossibly difficult thing to navigate. Was it? That's incredibly nice of you to say. I mean, yeah and no. On the one hand, I've been obsessed with that diary for 20 years. And in some ways, I've been writing this story in my head for 20 years. So you'd be amazed at how fast something comes out,

like when you've been unconsciously, subconsciously writing something. In fact, Olivia, I bet you know that, what that sense is like. I'm sure there are things that have been pent up. Oh, of course. And I think like the greatest impediment, for me anyway, with writing

is when I don't have the time to sit and just think it through, even just idly, right? Not even in my conscious mind. But if I haven't been able to take that time, that's when I'm bumping up into not knowing how to phrase something or whatever. But if I've spent any time at all mulling something over, usually it just comes right out. That's so interesting. And you know, and some of it's not even conscious. Exactly. Right? It's like, you don't even know what work your unconscious mind is doing. So

imagine having like a 20 year gestation period. Like there's no mammal I can think of that like, you know, is pregnant for 20 years or something. This was like the world's longest pregnancy. Like, I mean, I had this thing going for 20 years, you know? And so like, I feel like that's a long gestation. Did you know you were ready? I was so ready to do it. I mean, the tricky parts were like, the McIlvains have become these dear family friends. And my brother has remained very close to Bobby's younger brother. So what I didn't want to do was ruin these precious friendships, you know, over a piece of journalism, because like I had to have my priorities straight on that one. So I too had never done anything like this.

What happened there? Yeah. How do you deal with that? Can I tell you, I sort of violated like a lot of the traditional rules. I made sure that the McElvain sort of knew what was going to be in it. I mean, I read to them. I do that. Yeah, well, thank you. So I do too. If you're dealing with civilians,

first of all, even with politicians. Well, I don't do that with politicians, but yeah. I don't tell them what's going to be in it, but I make sure the quotes are right, right? Of course, and never, I mean, I get from the Gay to Least school of like, there should not be any surprises. If people are surprised,

then you're probably being an asshole. Then you're being a dick. Exactly. And why be a dick? Right. You don't have to be a dick. Good journalism. And you're like marvelous proof, right? Because you've got all of these quirkers, all of these blockbusters. And clearly everyone keeps coming back to you. So I mean, you're doing something. I mean, you are like a guy. I mean, somebody should actually- They can't quit her. They can't quit her. They can't quit her.

And so the question is like, I mean, one day I would love to sit down with you and find out how you manage everyone. Yeah. Can we have like coffee or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Ladies, let's talk about this book.

So I want to know what happened with the McIlvains once they read it. I'll tell you, the best thing about their reaction was this. I mean, they loved the piece because it got everybody saying Bobby's name, but they also loved it because they're not fancy people. So a lot of people who lost people on September 11th have like annual golf tournaments and walkathons, and they head up their friends every year for money. And the McElvains are not the kind of people who do that. Like, that's not what they do, right? So they didn't have to, right? No, they didn't have to.

You've made it that way. Yeah. Can you talk about memory and the fallibility of memory? Because I remember where I was on 9-11. Strangely, many people in the story have forgotten a lot about it. Obviously, they have to in some ways because it's so devastating. But memory and grief sort of get mixed up together in weird ways, especially when someone dies young. Totally.

And people have different memories. Can you talk a little bit about when you're writing about it? Because you yourself also have memories that may not be the right memories, right? Oh my God, can I tell you the craziest thing about this? Talk about having a thought. Well, first I'll tell you about all the flawed memories that I sort of found in this story

that totally transfixed me. So a really good example is that Jen, the almost fiance, because Bobby had bought a ring for her, just hadn't proposed. Um, she lived with the McElfanys after September 11th because she just couldn't tolerate the echoing kind of emptiness of their apartment, right? Or of her apartment where Bobby was now spending a lot of time. So this is nuts to me if if you asked bobby's younger brother she stayed there with them for six months if you ask bobby's mom she stayed there for a week wow and she remembers having stayed there for two months but like the gulf between six months and a week. I mean, that's, and here's another one that I absolutely couldn't get over. Both Jeff, Bobby's brother, and Jen, they could not decide who slept in Bobby's bed during that

time. Someone slept in Bobby's bed and it was either his brother, like, sleeping in his dead brother's bed, or it was like his fiance sleeping in like, this man's bed that she was not going to marry. And like, how can it be that like, they couldn't remember waking up to all of Bobby's things and what that, right? I mean, it is amazing. Well, it's part of grief, right? It's grief, right. That's how you choose. I mean, it's grief. It's how you deal with grief. I don't remember what I did this morning, but go ahead.

Well, there's some argument that while we're grieving, things are more vivid, but I don't think that's true. And this gets, by the way, you're skating on very dangerous, I don't want to say thin ice. I mean, this is a little bit treacherous because, of course, you want to believe the memories of people who have been raped, who have gone through traumas, who have gone through all kinds of terrible things. But it was unnerving to me to hear the different testimony, right? And we know this from kind of different eyewitness testimony at crimes that you can get radically different kind of, yeah, sort of reports of what happened. But so here's an example. I mean, just to show how fallible my own stupid memory was about this. I was interviewed for a storytelling podcast maybe four months ago. I was interviewed for a storytelling podcast maybe four months ago. And they said to me,

so what was it like asking the McElvains to do this story? How delicate was it to ask them? And I was very cheerful. And I said, oh, they were super open-hearted. I wrote them a long, heartfelt, careful note. And they said, of course, yes, absolutely. We'll do anything we can to help you. And I went back and I looked at that note recently. It was not long and careful and heartfelt. It was like way too short and telegraphic and made me wince when I reread it. Like it was too careful. And the Mackle and Helen was so cautious with me. She was not in any way like, oh, absolutely, anything you need. She said that she wanted to only answer my questions in writing. That is how, like, and I think I couldn't tolerate the idea of- Unkind, being unkind.

Of pressuring them, exactly. Right. Of being, of pressuring them into, like, of keeping at it and saying, no, you really do want to sit and talk to me. But Jennifer, isn't it sort of like when something works out, though, and when the reaction to the story

is positive from your subjects, doesn't, I find this happens to to me too, where I forget all of the negotiating that went into getting the access that I got in the end, or I forget how difficult it was or what the fact-checking process was like, or all of that just fades or gets distorted. And I remember it as an easy process. Like this is the second time I'm going to use this metaphor, which is so bananas why I'm doing this, I don't know. But it's like childhood, you forget, you forget the pain.

And it's just like, oh, yay, a baby, like a totally awesome baby. And yes, right, I was like, oh, yay, a totally awesome baby. And I forgot what I did. And yes, right. I was like, oh, yay, a totally awesome baby. And I forgot what I did. But I also think it was just, it was too disruptive of my own self-concept to think that like, oh, I'm an empathetic journalist. I would never have leaned on the McElveins in this way. But your mind protects you, I think, right? Your mind is protecting your self-image when that happens, I think. Totally. And that's just what happens. I think that our minds are protecting

us in all kinds of ways. And that's what happens with memory. Then how do you go now? I'm going to ask you a couple more questions. You interviewed Steve Bannon, was not a kind piece, but you were right in there with him. And he answered, you know, I know he's very available. I know I'm aware of that. And you have interviewed him too, Olivia. But when they know, sometimes, and Olivia did that famous Trump thing when you're in this office, and I kept thinking, why are they letting her in there? What, you wouldn't have invited me? I would not have. Are you kidding? No, no, absolutely not. Not unless every drawer was locked. So how do you, come on, you both interviewed someone like a Steve Bannon who has, who is not in his best interest necessarily to talk to you.

I'd love to, you know, in this case, it probably wasn't in their best interest to talk to you, but it wasn't in their not best interest to talk to you in this case because it did preserve his memory in a very lovely way. But how do you think, both of you think about that when you're doing these kind of long-form things and you have to spend significant amounts of time with people? You first, Olivia.

Oh, well, I'm very curious to hear your opinion on Bannon and his calculation. But I think for a lot of people like that, they know what they're getting into. Steve Bannon is certainly savvy about the media. I mean, he's been manipulating the media for years, positively, right? Spinning himself as being central to history. And for someone like that, he just wants attention. He wants to be, I mean, we're talking about last night's episode of Succession, Jennifer, I don't know if you watched it, but when everyone, Tom is like, it's important that I was on the plane with him. I mean, that's what all of these guys are doing. They just want everyone to know that they were on the plane. So they'll take the hit. They know that they're probably going to have a negative interpretation of at least some of their story or what they're claiming.

But that's really not what it's about to cooperate with mainstream or liberal media. It's about attention and it's about writing themselves into history. I mean, that is what Steve Bannon is doing, in my view. I think that's right. I mean, I think megalomania plays no small part. I think that also there's, look, he's partly, and we know this, he might deny it, but he is a part of the establishment. He was a Goldman guy. He was a Hollywood guy. Oh my God, he's going to hate this so much, Jennifer. But the point is, he craves kind of the establishment's approval, right?

So, The Atlantic, New York Magazine, they're all places to get your passport stamped that I think matter to you. A lot like Trump, right? I mean, for Trump, it's like he hates the media, hates the media. All that he wants is the acceptance of the New York media elite. That is what animates him. Right, and he came of age in New York. Yeah. He came of age here. So, right, exactly.

I think this all matters to these guys. Yeah, I can't believe they talked to you. I still can't believe it. Let me ask you two more questions. We've got to go soon. What should people know about grief? What did you learn about grief from this book? Oh, yeah, that's great.

That's a good question. Two things. First of all, telling anyone how to grieve, to move past it, or you should be... There's a tyranny, I think, associated with grieving in a way that you've got to do it sequentially, you've got to do it in steps, there's a certain point in which you should be done. And no one grieves sequentially or logically. Everybody grieves really idiosyncratically. That's like the first thing that I would say. The second thing is that some people never get over their grief. And I didn't realize that some people don't want to get over their grief. They want to live in it and they want to inhabit it. And it's a way to keep, people live in terror of forgetting someone. I wrote at some point that it's the craziest thing that the dead abandon you, but then you abandon the dead. And I think that people don't want to abandon the dead. And that's sometimes why they perpetually grieve and, and, or that they stay in their grief. And you've got to respect that, you know, you can't view it as odd or pathological or it's, it's just another response. I was so floored. There was a, I think it came out a few months ago. Some medical group

said that they had determined something called, I think, long grief or extended grief. And I thought that was so strange and so silly because the idea that after a year or after six months or whatever the time period was that they determined that it was unusual. How could that be? Well, pathologizing it or making it like its own DSM category is just completely whack-a-doodle to me. That's so true. And there have been arguments about that, you know, with obviously the more rational heads not prevailing saying, this is a normal response to the human condition. Are you kidding me? Like, this is just what love looks like inside out.

Like, it's grief. Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah, that's absolutely true out. Like, it's grief. Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, it's interesting. I think you can use it positively, too, you know, in a way to keep you going. That's right. That's right. But I think that's so interesting, Jennifer, like the idea that people are terrified of exiting that period of trauma. I always think the hardest part of losing someone is not the immediate aftermath and the shock, but it's that period of time, maybe it's a week later, because it put their son's name in people's mouths again, is so powerful. That's so lovely of you to say. And yes. I think you wrote another piece about COVID. I want to end up on this. You have long COVID.

I do. And you wrote very beautifully about it in The Atlantic. I know it's interesting because there's been so much trauma for this country and individually for everybody between 9-11, the wars, COVID, everything else. Talk a little bit about what prompted you to write about this. Many people don't want to write about their long COVID. I know a lot of reporters who have it who don't write about it. Talk to us a little bit about that. it. Talk to us a little bit about that. Well, some of it was self-serving. I knew that my byline was not appearing, and I wanted people to know why. Partly inspired by a jackass from the New York Times who one day, Kara, when you and I are really, when we're face-to-face and we're deep in our cups, I will tell you who said to me, like, you know, is this your excuse for being underproductive? And it's like, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. They live in fear of that at the New York Times, but go ahead.

Yeah, I know. I know. But no, what it really was, was, you know, I think I was struck by how many people kept saying, are you better now? Are you better? Not understanding that it was chronic and that there is no such thing as better. That for a lot of us, like, we don't know if we're ever going to be better. I actually have something that, it's got a big, long, ugly name called hyperadrenergic POTS that most people don't recover from. I was like in the asterisked percentile of unlucky where like I might have got, it looks like I'll have something permanent out of this. Although there is a chance that my body will stop attacking itself and that I won't have this autoimmune condition forever. But people with long COVID,

they are looking at possibly, I mean, they don't know when they are looking at ever recovering. I mean, they don't know when they are looking at ever recovering. And so I wanted to sort of make clear, please stop asking if I'm better. Like, and also there's a certain amount of prurience once people find out that they will buttonhole you. And I don't, you know, it's a lot of the things that actually Helen McElvain had to deal with. When people don't know the right thing to say. Yeah, I was thinking the link between grief and mourning in this. Oh, yeah. Well, and also I'm mourning just like the fact that I used to be able to like walk without pain.

And I can't even imagine what it'll be like. I mean, will I ever be able to like hike? You know, I mean, I would like just to be able to take a very long stroll without it hurting. And I have been able to do that lately, which is good. But knock on wood, you know, I'm knocking now, but maybe I'll be able to hike one day. But yeah, I don't know. I think I was grieving hard. I think that's right. And I don't know. I work a lot of things out on paper. That's just like a lot of writers' roles. So I'm interested in the writers who don't want to do it. It was beautifully done.

I thought it was a real slap in the face to people in a good way. You know what I mean in terms of sort of telling them about that when they want to.

You know, as you know, I had a stroke and then I just had a heart surgery and stuff like that and the way people behaved. Of course,

mine is much more temporary than yours is and I was very irritated by it on lots of levels and I never wrote about it, but when I read it, I was like, uh-huh. Yeah, why would you? Yeah, well, but also, I mean, I can understand

just because, I mean, you're a lot better known than I am. And I think you would have had to deal with, your inbox would have just been teeming for too many weeks and people still wouldn't have necessarily, I still got a lot of weird emails and response. Like even after I'd sort of written about all my bet noirs and the weird things that like people would say to me, they would still, and they were so well-meaning. Explain what one of them was. Explain what one of them was. A lot of them had weird advice you know you should take you know orange

yeah right right exactly i had a lot i had a lot of that i had more than one of those i had more than five of those in fact you know and it's like i i mean yeah anyway yeah i had a lot of you should so now you have to slow down because of stress i'm like it's a genetic condition you fucking idiot oh i got that from you know you should take time out to be sick and you should slow down. And it's like, you know, I did do that. And have you met me? Like, I don't, I mean, do you know anything about how work identified I am? I mean, like, that's like, and also there's nothing, I can't walk. I get there. There's so many things I can't do. This is one thing I can do. I can lie in bed and type. Like, please let me lie in bed and type.

Like, you know? Has your relationship to the idea of loss changed through the course of working on this project? I don't know. You know, I mean, has it changed? I mean, in some of the ways that I said, I think in that I didn't realize. I mean, I'm thinking more about grief that, you know, that I didn't realize, I mean, I'm thinking more about grief that, you know, that I didn't realize that people could live in a glass house of sorrow for forever and that that was where they needed to be. You know, that was certainly something that, but in terms of, I mean, I think

it's made me very acutely, I mean, because I also lost my health, right? In a way that I don't know if it's permanent or not. Nine and a half months already feels like forever. a more philosophical attitude maybe toward what I have and trying to do that slightly more Buddhist thing of, I mean, I am the opposite of Buddhist. I am neurotic to my core, but I am trying to notice things and appreciate things and breathe in and breathe out, you know? Send out, breathe in the bad and live with it and then breathe it out, you know, and take on my suffering and other people's suffering and then breathe it out. I mean, all the things you, I'm reading Buddhist books. Was I doing that before? I was not. Oh, wow. Don't do that. Yeah. People gave them to me after I had a stroke and I was like, and no.

I would be afraid to give you something like that. You should be. I would say people should be afraid to recommend that to me too. And then people I really, I mean, it's like you really do want to slap people who recommend like that stuff, especially people like us again. But you know what? I've kind of secretly loved it. And I'm doing oxygen therapy for an hour and a half every day where I can't bring a screen inside my little hyperbaric oxygen tank. So what do you do?

You read like a Buddhist book. It's not the worst thing. It's not the worst thing. This is what I'll say. It's not the worst thing. Okay. On that note, and orange peel. Orange peel.

And Jennifer, how are you doing? How are you doing? How are you doing? Anyway. I love those lines. They made me laugh. How are you doing? And then how are you doing? How are you doing? Anyway. I love those lines. They made me laugh. How are you doing?

And then, how are you doing? How are you doing? That's right. No, really. How are you? I'm terrible. Thank you. I'm so awful.

Wait, I'm going to enumerate now all the ways I'm terrible. Because that's what you want to hear. That's what they want to hear. Anyway, Jennifer Senior, you should read her really wonderful book on grief based on an article she did for the Atlantic and won the Pulitzer Prize it's available now

I really appreciate it both of you are two of my favorite writers and everybody should read this and get a hard copy so that they can keep it and pass it around thank you so much

and you two are two of my favorite journalism gals for dames or broads I think we just said I'm broads dames Jennifer thank you so much. And you two are two of my favorite journalism gals for dames or broads. I think we just say I'm broad. Dames. Jennifer, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

All right, Olivia, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fizz.ca. Okay, Olivia, let's do wins and fails. I'll go first. Obviously, the fail is the Tennessee state legislature full of sexual harassers and strange people, peers on people's seats. They voted to remove two members last week after they joined an anti-gun protest. At the time of this taping, local national officials are expected to vote on whether to reinstate them. That's probably going to happen.

Justin Pearson and Justin Jones were expelled by Republican colleagues. A third member who participated in the protest, Gloria Johnson, was not expelled. She is white. Two are black men. It's a very bad look. But as I've come to learn, the Tennessee state legislature is a mosh pit of weird.

When, obviously, Succession and Jesse Armstrong and Mark Milod, who's the director of that episode, Jesse Armstrong wrote it and is the creator of Succession. Just a beautiful hour of television, I have to say. It was really moving. So those are my wins and fails. Olivia? I guess my win has to be Sting, who it turns out is receiving $5,000 a day because Diddy sampled Every Breath You Take without his permission. So he pays him $5,000 a day for those rights. Wow. And he deserves it. That was a great song. Right? Great song. A great song. Yeah, all that sampling is going to be a big deal. Yeah.

Especially with AI, Jed or Bayon. Fail. I guess, I'm not pandering, but I guess it's Elon Musk. I guess I'm not pandering, but I guess it's Elon Musk. It's not going well. No. No. He needs some help. He needs a hug. He does need some help, but you're not going to give it to him.

You should hug him. I mean, look, if he asked, if he was like crying and he said, could I have a hug? I don't know. I wouldn't like walk away. That's sociopathic. Hello. Nice to meet you. I'm sorry.

All right, Olivia, you can hug him. I will just, let's pick up the headline. I'm not offering it. I'm just saying if he asked, I wouldn't walk away because I'm not a sociopath. All right. I'm going to give him your cell just in case. All right. We want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Olivia, that's the show. Thank you for joining me. You're wonderful. It was really good. It was a really good discussion. And you can find Olivia's cover story on Stormy Daniels in the latest issue of New York Magazine. It's on the cover. Did I say that again? It's a wonderful piece. And it's very thought-provoking in a lot of ways. We're excited. What are you working on next? Ron DeSantis. Call me, Ron DeSantis, if you're listening. Yeah, he's not going to listen to this. I think his PR person called me a groomer. Oh.

Don't assume that'll help you. Oh, why haven't you tried to groom me? What the hell? No. Oh, my God. Stop. This is going to become an Internet thing. Anyway, I don't think I'm going to go there. I'm not saying a word. Anyway, we'll be back on Friday for more. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andreda engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thanks again to Olivia Nuzzi and Jennifer Signor. Oh, God.