Pivot - Twitter’s Trump Warrant, and An Abortion Rights Win in Ohio with Co-Host Will Hurd

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Republican presidential candidate joins Will Hurd joins Kara as co-host to discuss aging politicians, an FEC efforts to regulate AI in campaign ads, and of course, Barbie. Then, they talk about what the Ohio special election means for the GOP's anti-abortion stance, and whether Trump's legal woes can clear a path for other Republican candidates. You can find Will Hurd on Twitter at @WillHurd. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

We're closing out a second week of Scott Free August. It's been a very enjoyable month so far. And my co-host today is former CIA officer and more recently, a Texas congressman. He is currently a Republican candidate for president. Please welcome Will Hurd. Hi, Will. What's up, everybody? Hey, Kara. Thanks for having me on. How are you doing? I'm doing wonderful. I'm glad Scott takes off for August so I get this opportunity. Yeah, I know. The person who brought us together is Alyssa Farah, said you like Pivot and you have a lot to say. Apparently, you're running for president. We're going to talk about that and more. How are you doing otherwise? How's it going? How's the campaign going? Look, it's exciting. I have to say,

you know, I just hired a new person and he's a huge super fan of yours so much so that when we were last in Iowa, he rented us a Kia Sorento. And he's like, he's like, you're going to be able to talk about this on the podcast. I love the Kia Sorento. Did you hear what happened to my Kia Sorento? No, I do not know the story. It got crushed by a tree in Washington during the storms. Oh, really? Yes, a tree fell on it. It was, we'll see in Washington during the storms. Oh, really? Your old haunts. Yes, a tree fell on it.

It was, we'll see how it survives. I'm going to get another one, obviously, but. Well, I'm glad you weren't in the tree. I was not in the tree. I went in the car. No, you know, the bolts survived. We moved the bolt just the night before and it would have also gotten crushed. But thank God the bolt survives. And also, you know, so I have two unsexy cars that I think are very, I'm trying to bring sexy back to Bolts and Sorrentos.

If anybody can do it, you can. I can do it. So I want to talk about a lot of things, but how is your campaign going? Have you gotten more votes than Conor Roy yet? Conor, I don't even know. I don't even know the reference. I don't even know the reference. Oh, it's succession.

Oh, my God. Yeah. You know what? Look, I've only seen a few episodes. Look, here know the reference. I don't even know the reference. Oh, it's succession. Oh, my God. Yeah. You know what? Look, I've only seen a few episodes. Look, here's the thing. I'm a dark horse candidate. I recognize that. But what has been fascinating is every week we're getting better.

I talk about how we're a startup, right? And the way a startup, look, you've forgotten more about startups than most people know, is have a good product market fit. We know who our customers are and who our customers aren't. And it's about growing at the right times. And so my most immediate issue is making sure I meet the requirements to get on the debate stage. And we're getting really close to that. How close are you? It's like 40,000? It's 40,000. I'll give you money. I gave money to Christy, so I'll give money to you to get yours. Well, look, I appreciate that. How close are you? It's like 40,000? It's 40,000. I'll give you money. I gave money to Christy, so I'll give money to you to get you. Well, look, look, I appreciate that. Just $5. So don't feel that honored. Hey, $5 accounts towards that 40,000. But look, it's been fun. It's been exciting. The message is slowly resonating. The goal is not to peak next week. The goal is to peak between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And guess what? I think America deserves a sane conservative party so that we can have a competition of ideas. And that's why

we're doing it. So talk about that a tiny bit. You were just appearing, I forget whatever gathering you were at, and you got booed. I thought you handled it rather well. I forget whatever gathering you were at and you got booed. I thought you handled it rather well. Donald Trump is running to stay out of prison. And if we elect. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. Listen, I know the truth. The truth is hard. Was that how what was that like? This was a group of Trump supporters. And obviously, you're not running for vice president like some of the people are because you're not going to get it. Just FYI.

You've been critical, not quite as loud as Christie, but more colorfully as Christie, I guess. Talk a little bit about why you did that and how you handled that because it's tough when a crowd's booing you like that. So first and foremost, I've never been the need of Donald Trump. I've been that way since the very beginning. And I'm the only person in this race that can claim that title. And going in, this was a Lincoln Day dinner in Iowa, and there's about 2,000 people. And a lot of it is party activists. And so I knew that some people were not going to like my message. And ultimately, what I said was, Donald Trump is not running for president to make America great. Donald Trump is not running to president to represent the people who voted for him in 2016 or 2020. Donald Trump is running for president

to stay out of prison. And several people booed. But what was fascinating and what I was not expecting was there are a lot of people that clapped. And there were more people that set their hands folded and quiet. And my message was to those folks that know that that is true and saying that it's okay. And if we're afraid to tell the truth, even when telling the truth is uncomfortable, then we're never going to get out of this morass that we are currently in. I would assume it was different in the room, but there was heavy booing. How do you deal with that? You handle it well. You're like, well, fine. You don't have to agree with me, but I'm telling you the truth, essentially. Look, we knew it was going to happen. And when it started booing, it's like, hey,

how do you calm the crowd down in order to finish? And it was at the end of my speech. And so it was just calmly walk off. Look, it's not a fun right? But look, I go back to when I was a kid. I had messed up teeth until I was in high school. I had a speech impediment until I was high school. My head has been this size since I was four years old. And like, my mom, that's a fact. I had a big head and I wore a size 14 shoe. See back then, you know, to get, to get a shoe over 12, it was only red and it was big. And that wasn't cool back then to have red shoes. Right. So, so, you know, my I'm, I'm half black, half white. And, and it was, you know, so I I've gotten made fun of, I gotten picked on, picked on a lot. And, and so I have a,

I have a thick skin. But, but knowing and thinking through what your options are when something like that happens, and guess what? I'd do it again. And what happened was when I was at the airport the next day, people walked by and whispered, hey, thanks for being honest. I was at Walmart yesterday and some people came up and they're like, hey, Hurd, thank you for being honest. And so you think it's resonating? It is. It is. Slowly but surely, people are starting to see that. And if more people look, I've said this, I've said this so many times.

I'm not a political scientist. However, I have run and won some really tough elections. Right. You don't win by kissing your opponent's butt. Right. And why these other Republicans are doing this? Why is that? Look, they're afraid of Donald Trump. They're afraid of his voters. And I'm sorry, if you can't stand up to Donald Trump, how are you going to be able to have

a conversation and a bait with the current president of the United States? How are you going to be in a position with Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, dealing with President López Obrador in Mexico? If you're afraid to speak the truth when we all know it, then I'm sorry, you're not fit. You're not fit to be president. Do any of them believe? So I will say that, look, these are intelligent people. These are intelligent people. I go back to January 6th, and I knew all of my colleagues. There were probably 15 people that actually thought that the election was unfair, but everybody else knew that it was solid, right? And so I just, I don't understand. If I understood why they're doing that, and anybody who thinks, maybe they thought that Donald Trump was going to pull out, be like, oh, these legal issues are too much. I got to back out. Or maybe he was

going to have a heart attack. But know, but why they're doing it, I don't know. It's not a winning strategy. And oh, and by the way, also clones never win, especially when the original is still in. So I think they thought he had shame and he doesn't. That's the thing. They thought he'd fall out.

In any case, we have a lot to talk about today. Today, we'll talk about the special election in Ohio, which was a big sign for these people, I would imagine. What results mean for the GOP's campaign strategy. We'll also talk about Donald Trump's Twitter account and why special counsel Jack Smith got a search warrant for it, among other things. But first, we've been starting pretty much every show asking about Barbie. It's just crossed the billion dollar mark and message to Scott Galloway on vacation. That's a billion dollars from the woke people. You're welcome. Have you seen it? I have. I've seen them both. I love movies. You know, my wife, I'm recently married. We're in Q3 of marriage. Campaign's a startup. I'm in Q3 of marriage. Okay. The love fun is up and to the right. Okay. Hugely romantic, Will. campaign's a startup i'm in q3 of marriage okay the love fun is up and to the right hugely romantic well um and and so she has probably seen 400 movies in her entire life 398 of them have been with me right like i i love i love movies so we saw we saw oppenheimer and

barbie on the the same on the same on the weekend it came out. I thought they were both excellent movies. You know, anybody who's criticizing Barbie for, like, empowerment, it's like, come on, it's about empowerment. You should be supportive of it. And it was funny. The concept was interesting. I thought Michael Cera's character was pretty funny. I had never known that there was another.

Alan, yeah. I didn't know there was an Alan doll. And working in the history of it was great. And Oppenheimer, I thought, look, I've read a lot of books on nuclear fission, and partly because of my involvement in artificial intelligence. I think AI and nuclear fission have some equivalent controlled, you have something amazing, Controlled, you have something amazing. Uncontrolled, you have something destructive. But I didn't know all the history about Oppenheimer after World War II. So I appreciated that frame.

So yeah, loved both. What were your thoughts? Yeah, what was your thoughts? I loved it. I loved it. I think people either, it's either just fun for people and then you could just take it away like that. I think it made fun of everybody. It made fun of feminism, made fun of men's movements. It made fun of just everybody, you know, and just ridiculousness. But but it was funny. It was lovely. It was you can take away anything you want from it. It was lovely. And Oppenheimer was substantive, a little long, but really good. good. Let me ask you a question, though. It's the 100th day of the writer's strike. And obviously,

you have been a more, the reason I know you has been a more tech-oriented congressman. How do you look at where they are? It's 100 days. There's obviously AI is a very big part of it. Sure. Look, I just put out a video about this. And one of the issues, and I can't speak the streaming residuals and all these issues, right? Like, I'm of the opinion is that if you have frames for something, just adapt them and edit them for the new thing, right? And so, I can't give you an authoritative or thoughtful issue there. But on one issue, facial rights, right? It's real simple. My face is my face. And guess what?

Warner Brothers doesn't get to bring back Heath Ledger to play the Joker in Batman 17, right? Or new actors can't be AI models of old actors. And why should everybody care? And look, I know that it's easy to kick Hollywood and, you know, it's all depending on where you are. But guess what? I love movies, man. I love movies. Like our culture, our soft power matters, our culture, our music, our films, our TV shows. All that stuff has led to the greatness of America. But if a studio could do something like that with Heath Ledger, then guess what? They're going to screw my next door neighbor if it was beneficial. So I think one of the issues is around facial rights.

Facial, which is what it is. It's kind of interesting because as we record this, the FEC is expected to vote on a ban on deep fakes and campaign ads. The ban would prevent candidates and political parties from deliberately misrepresenting their opponents with the use of AI. AI has already played a big role in the 2024 presidential election when Joe Biden announced he would seek re-election. The RNC released a video made with AI depicting a dystopian future. Both the Trump campaign and the DeSantis campaign have produced videos using AI, and he himself has struggled with it. An AI video was made altering your appearance on The View to suggest a guest told you to shut the hell up. Here's what I think is important. Donald Trump is a threat to our national security. Oh, brother, please.

We all know that the country and the world was more secure under Trump. So please just shut the hell up with a talking point for dummies. They could have, but they didn't. They clapped. They clapped. That was not one where I got booed. That was definitely one where they clapped. Look, Donald Trump is a threat to our national security. So you've placed AI at the forefront of your campaign.

Should the FEC be regulating this or who should if you were still in Congress and will banning candidates and parties, not political advertising, right? And so being narrow on political advertisement and things that can and cannot do, I think that is fine within the FEC's purview. When it comes to broader deepfakes in our systems, talking about what systems and what critical infrastructure should these not be allowed, how platforms should be using the deepfake detection. You know, the reality is there's a number of companies that are working on how you detect deepfakes and they're all pretty good. And so making sure, you know, how if I share something on Twitter or whatever we're calling it today, that that photo was doctored or that video was doctored. And something more than just basic

editing, right? I put a, you know, something more than just I, you know, adjusted the darkness or something like that. The technology exists. And I think there should be a conversation about how those platforms deploy that. Do you worry about it as a candidate and, you know, longtime politician? Is it something that will become so deceptive that it's impossible to know who's telling the truth? So I've had millions of dollars of negative advertising dropped on my head, right? And so whether someone lies in a mail piece, right, that's coming to someone's door, or they lie in a video, the concepts are ultimately the same. But it requires us to be able to educate and have a way to hit back. I think when it comes to political advertising, the ability for like super PACs and outside interests to incredibly juice this, to potentially

have an overwhelming opposition. So a million people thought, you know, I got booed on stage, which, you know, in that case, because I know how it, how, you know, it, it, it positively helped me in Iowa. I'm okay with it, but, but these are difficult issues to deal with what, what I think Congress should be doing. And this in a broader sense, let's start with saying AI needs to follow the law. We have a lot of rules on civil liberties and civil rights. Let's make sure those apply. Let's not have a carve-out for AI. What we know about social media now, we would not have carved it out of the Communication and Decency Act a couple of decades ago. Young women, because of images they're seeing, are leading them to cutting themselves. That's not acceptable. And this probably would not have

happened if the same rules that radio and TV had at the time would have applied. But that may not be enough. But it's a but it's a start. Is Congress is up to speed as they need to be. You were one of the you know, I'm trying to think I could name Ken Buck has gotten pretty good. David Cicilline, who's left, was good in the House and the Senate. Obviously, there's quite a few Klobuchar, Warner, Bennett. There Warner, Bennett. There's some. I'm trying to think on the Republican side. My homie from Nashville. Marsha? Senator Blackburn.

Oh, sometimes. I agree. I agree. She understands. She understands. There's probably disagreements on other things, but she understands. Here's what I would say. She never misses an opportunity to politicize it when she could be sensible. That's all I'm saying. It's like, just talk about the danger and you don't have to then throw in a, and by the way, Hillary Clinton's emails, but go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. These are the views of Kara Swisher, not the co-host. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. You know what I mean? It's like, it's a serious enough issue that we don't need to

muck it up with stupid partisanship. Let's focus on the things we agree on, right? Like there's like I've always said way more unites us than divides us. I will say this. I was pretty shocked. I've been pretty shocked by the hearings that Blumenthal and Josh Harley are doing there. Look, if you wanted to find complete opposites, it's Blumenthal and Holly.

And they're asking some of the right questions. Now, can that turn into execution? That's the real question. That's what I mean. Yeah. You have to be nonpartisan on this stuff. But here is the problem. Why do we not have a privacy standard in the United States?

Why is Europe? I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I know. Why is Europe 24 to 36 months ahead of us when it comes to regulation on technologies? We should be the one driving the world. The reason is behind closed doors, when all outside groups and supporters say, yeah, we should have a privacy law. But then behind closed door, the financial community says something very different,

and retailers come in and say something very different. And that's what prevents a privacy standard from happening, because those two organizations and members of Congress are unwilling, they're not smart enough on these issues to come in and say, yeah, here's the Because those two organizations and members of Congress are unwilling. They're not smart enough on these issues to come in and say, yeah, here's the decision I'm going to make. And here's a side I'm going to come down on. And so I think AI is early enough in it being a issue that we could potentially have some regulations. Okay. All right. We'll see. Well, speaking of which, Dianne Feinstein is back home after a

brief hospital visit following a fall. A spokesperson said the fall was, quote, minor and that all of her scans were clear. Just weeks ago, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell froze during a press conference, and Donald Trump and Joe Biden are 77 and 80, respectively. A lot of these people do not understand tech, and I'm not going to focus just on tech. What is your take on these aging representatives? Should there be a maximum age to serve? And if we leave the decision to the politicians themselves, do we hurt constituents? Well, look, so... How old are you? I'm 45. I turned 46 next week. And you left. And you left.

I left. I walked away, right? And I had been asked, do I support term limits? And I said early on, I don't. I was like, because guess what? Vote somebody out. And I always said, you don't have to die or be defeated to leave Congress. And I walked away. A 2020 election would have been my biggest win and biggest victory. Publicly traded companies force CEOs to walk out at a certain time, right? And so I can make an argument for. I can also, I think it's slightly self-indulgent for me to be like, yeah, these people are too old. And I think it's for the next generation to actually take. If I'm president and Congress put something on my desk, of course, I would sign it. If I was still in Congress, I would probably vote for it.

And so it's like, we should be looking at, is there a disproportional advantage for incumbents to stay on office? And I think maybe looking at that. But look, age is going to be an issue. I do not wish Senator McConnell or Feinstein any ill will. I'm glad they're all doing better. But yes, I think people that do not have an understanding of these issues and people that are making decisions about the future need to be the ones living in that future. And so age is going to be an issue, especially in the 2024 election. And I can say, you know, my father is 90. We lost my mother this year. And I know I think the best person to comment on this was Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter said, I've been 80 and I've been president. And you can't do both at the same time. And so, yeah, look, this is going to be an issue.

It's going to be a big issue. It's going to be a big issue. All right, let's get to our first big story. our first big story. Abortion rights activists won a decisive victory in Ohio this week in a special election. Voters rejected a Republican-backed measure known as Issue 1, which would have made it harder to change the state constitution. It would have shifted it from a simple majority of 50 to 60 percent. This November, an amendment to enshrine abortion rights in that constitution will be on the ballot. And so they were trying to avoid that, although they tried to make it broader. This was a landslide defeat, a resolution lost by 57% to 43% margin. The voter turnout was incredibly high, higher than the midterm election, I believe. There's six other statewide abortion-related ballot initiatives since Roe versus Wade was

returned, and everyone so far, abortion rights have won. So, and there's more, there's gonna be more efforts and people are, this seems to work. So what do you think the message is here for your party? Well, look, so the message is this is going to continue to be an issue and it obviously is not a winning issue. I'm pro-life, but I also think there's a lot of agreement that with the exception, and I'm for exceptions, and, you know, most people think that, you know, abortion shouldn't happen after 15 weeks unless there's a life with a mother issue. And so, I think that's an area that we can all cooperate on. I also believe that if you are a state that has these serious restrictions, you need to make sure it's clear that, you know, when it comes to the life of the mother.

Like there's been some examples here in Texas where a woman was forced to carry basically a dead child. And like I can't fathom the mental anguish of that. can't fathom the mental anguish of that. But if you also are going to be a state that has these laws, then your maternal health in that state needs to be first class. Neonatal health needs to be first class. Like the fact that in many parts of the country, if you're a black woman that has a child, the maternal death rates are worse than in some developing worlds. Right. So to me, like it's 2023 in the greatest country on the planet. When women are pregnant, they should not have an increased likelihood for death. So this is, I think, where some of the messaging and where the party should ultimately

be. So you said that if Congress put a 15-week ban on your desk, if you're president, you would sign it. You added if states are restricting this, those states could also have the best neonatal health, best maternity health care. They don't do that. They're very zeroed in on six weeks, and they don't care about the born babies or the mothers that are carrying these children. How do you win in this situation? It's both cruel and also cruel to the people that are involved in it, story after story after story. It's a losing issue, a political issue, too. Well, I think you don't win, right? Like, that's what Ohio and Kansas and even Montana suggest. And what was fascinating to me before this Ohio vote, there were several polls that were done that said, oh, this is going to be close thought this was this was going to try. And this was a this was a this was an ass kicking. Pardon my language. And and so so also for me, let's start looking at what voters are actually saying and not looking at the polling. Everybody still kind of thinks of it as a swing state.

It's a red state, right? All the senior leaders are Republicans. And when you look, you got to remind that Trump won Ohio. And so this is an issue. So why go down this lemming like, you know, the tyranny of the minority in this case? They aren't listening to voters. They may be running the state, but the voters don't seem to think they are. And why take away voters' rights? To me, it's like abortion rights people seem to be broadly in favor of, or much looser ones for sure. And they keep doing this. What's within the GOP that will not stop in this? It's a real, it's a suicide march in a lot of ways, politically.

There's also an issue here about overreach for government. Like, you know, people are getting frustrated with that. Book bannings. People are getting frustrated with book bannings or whether you're a Republican governor in Florida or a Democratic governor in California, telling businesses what they can and can't think or what they can or can't support. People are getting frustrated by that. And so I think there's another vein there. And look, I think a lot of stuff I talk about, I talk about the vision of the Republican Party I want to see, the vision of the Republican Party that I subscribe to. And this issue about local control is something that Republicans have gotten really far away from. And I think when you look at some of the numbers and why these ballot initiatives fail, it's because there's a lot of people that are conservative leaning that it's like, hey, this is not the government's responsibility or role in here.

So stay out of it. Right. Stay out of it. So if it's not a winning abortion is not a winning issue for the GOP. It clearly isn't. They're taking a lot of lumps for it. Can the party realize that and pivot? Or are you captive of these much more, I would say, cruel people because of the impact? People aren't listening to voters, would voters say? There's not one poll that says voters do not want some level of abortion rights. Look, I would say, I think when a guy like Mike Pence, you know, is able to say, hey, 15 weeks

makes sense, right? And nobody's going to question Mike Pence's conservative evangelical roots, right? And when he can say that, and that gets applause at a conservative crowd, I think maybe that isn't, I don't know if I'd consider that a pivot, but I think that's a sign that there's something potentially different or where we can find some areas. So is that going to happen? You've got a very short amount of time. Look, I can't speak to that, right? The fact that I can tell you what I say and what I talk to people and people appreciate

the perspective. And, you know, and so can I, you know, what everybody else is going to be focused on doing? That's up to them. And so can I, you know, what everybody else is going to be focused on doing? That's up to them. And where the broader party ends up on this issue, I don't know. And look, I always talk about like pro-life, right? Is you should be, you should care about life. Like it's fine.

I stopped talking about all the times I got booed. One of the first times I had a crowd really upset with me is because I said I was against a death penalty. And this was a Republican primary electorate. And I'm like, well, if you're pro-life, you should be pro-life all the way through, right? You should care about kids in cages on the border. You should care about life at all times, right? And so for me, being ideologically consistent is one of the more important things. And that's how the party can continue to grow in larger growing groups of voters. Do you think this is something they'll pull?

Because they seem to be doubling down on book bans, attacking trans people, and strict, ridiculously cruel and strict abortion laws. Seems like a prescription for loss all over the place. And then you'll get exactly what you don't want. Sure. Look, it's real simple. Okay. It's real simple.

Donald Trump, and what I can make an argument is the authoritarian wing of the Republican party, is a loser. He hasn't won since 2016. We lost the House in 2018. And in 2020, we lost the Senate and the White House. The lesson of 2020 was real simple. Don't be a jerk and don't be a socialist. The reason Joe Biden won with absolutely no coattails was because people like Donald Trump's a jerk, but all this other stuff, what was the defund the police and defund ICE and all that kind of stuff, people are like, no, no, no, no, we're not having that. And that's why people voted for Joe Biden for president

and a Republican as their member in Congress. And so, yeah, I would agree with your concept. Guess what? The way the Republican Party, and again, I know you like President Biden, but there's a lot of Democrats that don't. And there's a real opportunity. There's a real opportunity for a Republican. And everybody's like, well, Will, how do you have the Republican, how do you have the GOP be palatable to independents and conservative Democrats? Guess what? Don't be a jerk. Don't be a racist. Don't be a homophobe. Don't be a misogynist. It seems pretty hard. I really do hope you're getting through. Listen, you'd be surprised who I vote for. I vote for a lot of different people. I do like reasonable people.

I was very out front liking Biden when everyone else was in love with Beto, who I thought was a man, was a man boy, a silly man boy. But in any case, and some people are too liberal in many ways. Anyway, well, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest on the Trump indictments, how the company formerly known as Twitter got involved. We're going to keep calling it Twitter, by the way. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?

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Well, we're back for our second big story, the latest news of former President Donald Trump's legal troubles, of which there's more coming up next week, apparently. First off, the government apparently obtained a search warrant this past January for data and records related to at real Donald Trump Twitter account. The Twitter was reportedly barred from even telling Trump about the warrant. The company missed the deadline to produce the records and ended up paying a $350,000 fine for that delay. That's not so weird to me. Twitter was always slow in terms of giving things over the government. But what do you think they were looking for? Well, here are some theories someone sent me. One, to see he had secret accounts. Two, to see what devices he

was posting from. Three, to see the DMs on main and secret accounts. And four, to see drafts of tweets or perhaps even tweets that Twitter refused to post or that he refused to post, which is interesting. How do you feel about this? Look, so I think this is the prosecutors trying to better understand and understand his intentions. My understanding of Donald Trump's habits is I don't think he's a big texter or emailer. You know, he would always print stuff out and, you know, write stuff with on with a Sharpie, you know, and and so but those the draft texts and, that may show of his ability and how he was trying to coordinate. And it supports this narrative of intent, but also conspiracy.

It's funny, Bill Barr always reminds people, the conspiracy starts when you agree to do it. It's not that the fact that you were successful in it. So I think there will be some evidence to suggest that the fact that you were successful in it. So I think there will be some evidence to suggest that and coordination with some of those other groups, right? January 6th started with Donald Trump putting a tweet out. And so to me, all of these cases are serious. I've spent a little bit more time focusing on the classified document one, partly because I spent a decade as an undercover officer in the CIA overseas collecting intelligence.

Yeah. So how do you look at that? You do not have... So there's two questions I would love Donald Trump to ask. And if I got on the debate stage, I would ask these questions with an opportunity. And if people want to hear me ask these questions, heardforamerica.com, give at least $1. Why did he want to keep those documents? When he was told, you got classified stuff, you need to turn it back. Just turn it back.

We would not be in this situation in this case if he'd give them back. Why was he holding them? Well, they're his. They're his. They're his beautiful paper. Look, you had your golf shirts on. I get it. But there's another reason of those specific documents. Why do you give some back, but not all of them? Why were you holding those?

Two, Secret Service's responsibility is to protect Donald Trump and his family. It is not to protect documents or classified information. That is Donald Trump's responsibility. So the fact that Donald Trump willingly knew he had classified documents in an unsecure environment, what did he do in order to protect access to them, to vet employees? And he's never explained. We all know that the Russians and the Chinese are sophisticated in trying to get access to them. Whether they got access to them or not, I can't speak to that. I have not seen evidence that that was the case, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't potential. But explain, why did you have access to those? And to me, for someone to have things that talked about our capabilities with our overhead architecture, our satellites. Sure. Because you were in the middle of that in your job. I was in the middle of it. Look, I'm the only person in this race that's been shot at, chased, tried to be blown up, be in places that were overrun by folks.

And it's a slap in the face to the thousands of men and women who are putting themselves in harm's way every single day and every single night in order for us to be safe and to enjoy the freedoms that we enjoy. To me, that part is outrageous. That part is outrageous. Why do you think he did it? And why do you think he didn't protect them and handed it over to the pool guy, essentially? The pool guy took it. I think he didn't protect him because he didn't value the importance of this. I think he was incapable of understanding the importance of the materials that he had. I just think he's deficient in that. Or he didn't care about putting people in danger. Yeah. And it's a hubris to think, oh, nothing's going to happen to this, you know, and so, but why he wanted them, I don't know. Look, he wanted them. And again, I'm not a Donald Trump psychologist, but just we know the one example of when he shared some of the war plans, he wanted to brag. He wanted to brag. And so if he's bragging to the author of his staffer's biography,

who else is he bragging to, right? And that's why he had them. He had them for props. And to me, that's unforgivable. That means you're unfit for office. And we should all be horrified, especially at a time when – and look, our adversaries are laughing, right? The Chinese government is laughing. The Russians are thankful that all of this stuff is happening. And then our allies are like – Horrified, yeah. Horrified, right? And the Chinese were just hacking the Japanese too, speaking of which, it's everywhere, you know, it's everywhere.

They're hacking the United States government, right? Look, you've seen the stats about the zero-day attacks that have happened in the last year. All of them, all the new ones were from the Chinese to the defense industrial base, right? Like the Chinese, they're trying to surpass us as a global superpower. This is not my opinion. It's what they say about themselves. They're going to do that by being leader in a number of advanced technologies. And they're showing a level of aggression at all levels from diplomacy to cyber attacks. And we're having debates.

We're opening the door. Yeah, I get it. About whether we should ban books or have classified documents in your loo, right? Yeah, right. And the answer to both those questions is no. Let's get on to the next topic, right? So let me say the indictments that besides this one are coming is Erla Zneke in Georgia, which is again the fourth, where the DA in Atlanta expected to present her findings from an investigation in Trump's alleged election interference. She does have tape of him saying it, actually, which seems to be a problem for him.

Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis is reportedly aiming for conspiracy and racketeering. They have a very broad racketeering laws in Georgia. Just a reminder, there are three other criminal cases. As you said, the January 6th and 2020 election inquiry, the classified documents case. And I agree, it's incredibly, it's both depressing and heinous. And the Manhattan hush money case, which everyone's forgotten about at this point. The 86% of Republicans in a CBS poll believe these indictments, investigations have political motives to disrupt Trump's campaign. I talked to Frank Luntz earlier in the week,

and he's like, you know, obviously the polls go up when these things happen. And this fourth one, he said, I'll put them over the top, but it's putting over the top with people who, who are small, small minority of people and not able to make the presidency. And perhaps you don't even want them to be president. So that's a good thing. Obviously you don't. How positive is this for Trump and how ultimately negative is it? Because I think it's ultimately negative. So I think this, again, I'm not a lawyer, right? I think this Georgia case is one of the clearest issues because we have the call. We've all heard the phone call of Donald Trump asking a state employee to commit a crime that he knew was a crime, right? Like, that's pretty clear to me, right? So here is where So polling is a snapshot in time. It's a very narrow insight. And so would most Republicans be like Joe Biden and everybody associated with him hate Donald Trump? Yeah, of course. Right. Would they be like, there's some political activism here? I can understand why they say that. But is that going to translate 25 weeks from now into them voting for Donald Trump? Ultimately, what I think, and when you juxtapose national

polling with some of the state polling, Donald Trump is probably going to get 30% of the Republican primary voters, no matter what. Their rider dies. They're going with him. They got the hats. They got the t-shirts. No matter what happens. They're like Taylor Swift fans, but really rancid. But go ahead.

I don't know if she'd appreciate being compared. She would beat him in elections. Barbie and T-Swift are keeping the economy going. $1 billion? That's crazy. That's crazy. The feminists are keeping it. Girl power keeping the economy going. That's right. $1 billion? That's crazy. That's crazy. The feminists are keeping it. Girl power is keeping everyone going.

So for me, this is what I always ask people. Let's do this thought experiment. Who's the independent or conservative Democrat that voted for Joe Biden in 2020, and then in 2024, it's like, you know what? Donald J. Trump's my guy. That doesn't exist. It doesn't exist, right? So all the polling that shows that Trump is tight.

So they'll go, he's old, but I guess I can't see that. Yeah, I'm going to hold my nose for all that group of people, right? And so this is what I keep telling Republicans. If the GOP nominates Donald Trump as our as our nominee, we I don't mean this in a derogatory way. He literally campaigned from his basement, right? And he still beat you, right? Like, come on. And so anyway. You notice he's not saying much.

He's biking around and sitting on the beach. And every time he says nothing, his polls go up. Biden said nothing. It makes no sense. And ultimately, I also think the path. So all of these court cases, no one is above the law, right? And for those that want to criticize and bring up Hunter Biden and all that. So the person who's going to prosecute that case is someone who's been indicted like 90 times.

Like that makes no sense if that's something you care about. been indicted like 90 times? That makes no sense if that's something you care about. And the pathway is, there's a lot of Republicans that once we start getting into the winter, that people start paying attention to the election. Will be like, oh dear. Are going to be like, yeah, I voted for Donald Trump twice, but he's got too much baggage, and we need to look somewhere else. And then also the fact that Ron DeSantis has basically stumbled and is faltering. If you're not Donald Trump, if your name is not Trump, I think your chances are pretty much equal in this Republican primary.

Of the group. That's what you're hoping for. That's what you're hoping. Can I ask you very briefly, because we've got to get going, but why do you think DeSantis has stumbled so much? I think, as you know, I think he's charmless. You know, do you remember when Obama said Hillary Clinton was likable enough? Remember that? Right, right, right.

Which was, worked, it worked, no matter how you slice it. I think he's unlikable enough. That's, like, I've always thought he's charmless and strange. That's a good title. always thought he's charmless and strange. That's a good title. That's a good title for his book. The wife, I would possibly take.

The wife is charming, but not him. Look, so when you're more interested in fighting my friends in the LGBTQ community than you are Vladimir Putin, we got a problem. LGBTQ community than you are Vladimir Putin, we got a problem. When you think Cinderella is a bigger national security threat than anything else, than a president storing documents in his bathroom, then we have a problem. And so, you know, there's no upside to slavery, right? You know, if you want to come in and defend it and be like i didn't write it well it's not my fault it's not my fault i didn't write it right that's not leadership then change the phrase to be like listen that's not our that was not our intention i'm gonna call everybody back what i'm gonna call everybody back yeah he doubles down fix that fix that wording right it's it's that

it's it's that it's that simple then you hire a guy a known neo-Nazi, or let me not be hyperbolic, I think he was like an anti-Semite, right? And that he knew that in advance. And then you hire that. And then all the anti-LGBTQ stuff, right? That's called a pattern. And I think those are all the reasons that he's failing. Oh, and Republicans don't like authority trying to concentrate power in the hands of the few and telling businesses how they can and cannot think. Yeah. So that's it. So everybody's got a chance if Trump stumbles at some point or the penny suddenly drops with everybody. Yeah, or it's taken, right? Like, and that's our thesis, right? I do think you're right.

I think everyone has a chance. I think it'll be interesting to see who pulls forward. But I think you can't. I think Trump is going to stumble. I think he's going to stumble. Ultimately, he doesn't want to spend his life, the rest of his life in prison. So we'll see. He's got to me, he's got to, this is my calculation.

He's got to win, which he's not going to do unless something incredible happened. So he's got to win. He's got to hope a Republican who'll give him a pardon wins, which is not a certainty. There's pretty much, it's just Vivek and that guy, whatever he is, and DeSantis. Nobody else, everyone else is like, pardon, probably not. Or he's going to jail. Or he's going to jail. And it may be at Mar-a-Lago with a bracelet on his leg, but he's not going anywhere. It's not a great, he's not going to enjoy it. He could make a fake presidential office at Mar-a-Lago and pretend he's president the rest of his life.

That's the best choice for him. Anyway, Will, we've got one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Do you have a good prediction? We'll see. As a FIS member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At FIS, you always get more for your money.

Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Will, let's hear a prediction. It can be on anything. It doesn't have to be political, but it certainly can be. Can I give three real quick? Yes, sure. Go right ahead.

Okay. Pivot listeners put Will Hurd over the top of his 40,000 because they all went to heardforamerica.com and gave at least $1. That's prediction number one. Number two, the 2024 NBA champions are my San Antonio Spurs because of Wimby. And number three.

Why is it sports with you people? Luntz was talking about the Orioles, but go ahead. Move along. Move along. The that cat that that the Harvard professor that that took all that metal out of the ocean because he thought it was like going to prove extraterrestrial life. I don't think it's I think the final analysis is not going to be clear that that was. You don't believe in UFOs? I didn't say that i i just think

those pebbles that he got out of the ocean are not going to are not going to uh be the definitive case that there's something else it's time for the aliens to show up now just about now like okay that's enough human humanity we've been watching you and we're tired it's like well well my brother my brother my big brother is a big star trek fan and and i forget which star trek it was and they're talking about the history of the world and it was like there was world peace on earth when when aliens showed up that's right's right. Because we were all band together to hit something else. It's called First Contact.

There was a whole movie about it. Oh, great movie. Great movie. Yeah, First Contact. Arrival is another good one. We need a First Contact. Either it's got to be a simulation that we realize and it's over

and some teenagers are getting sick of us or aliens need to get here immediately. What would you say to the aliens if they showed up? What would be your first message as President Will Hurd? I'd be like, let's work together. I'm going to say what I always say. We can find way more to unite us and divide us.

What if they want to eat us? What if they want to eat us? Well, then if they want to eat us, be like, you know, let's hope these- To serve man. It's a cookbook. Yeah. I don't know if y'all have nuclear weapons, where you come from, but we can shoot ours into space.

Yeah. That was the plot of like, I think Independence Day. I think that's what that happened. Anyway. What's your prediction? Yeah. I think the writers and Hollywood Strike's going to possibly go on to January 15th, at least.

I thought several people were thinking October 14th, maybe, but certainly not. Now that it's August, they all go on vacation. What's the specific date? How are you able to say? Because they have to really, it really ruins next summer for them if they don't get work in by January. I think everyone will feel the pressure by then. I think writers and actors will be out of work and they can only do so many cameos, the actors, which is what a lot of them are doing right now to make money. They can do ads and cameos pretty much. I don't even think they can do ads. So I think that's going to be the financial pressure on writers.

And it's 100 days today, I think. It's a real and I think yelling at Bob Iger saying he's makes too much money is just not going to work after a while. Ultimately it doesn't work. So I think that's, they'll have to, they'll, they'll come to an agreement. And I think the studios, that's when the studios really have pressure because they're doing well because they're saving money right now. It's good for their bottom line. And I think there's plenty of content, but by some,

if they really go to January they'll have problems with summer kind of thing so we'll see that's when they'll push what's your sports prediction? I don't have any I don't watch sports Wilharn I'm the only lesbian in America

who hates sports which is the way it is I'm sorry I hate it I have sporty sons they both are very athletic I have to go to all these events and I hate every one of them and if I look at at my phone, my sons clock it and say, put down your phone. And so it's hell. And now my third son, who is only one and a half, seems to like sports, which is a real problem.

I do. I really don't like sports. I don't even like Megan Rapinoe kicking. I like Megan Rapinoe, by the way, as opposed to. And by the way, Megan Rapinoe, good for you with an amazing career, even if you didn't make that last kick. Astonishing athlete. I still didn't watch it. It doesn't matter. Anyway, and she's a lesbian. You'd think I would, but I don't. In any case, there we have it. Will, thank you so much. I love people being on the debate stage. You're a highly intelligent person who should be talking about issues like AI and reasonability, I guess, being reasonable. And you're sort of the nicer Chris Christie, essentially. I think he's effective. I think it's effective. He keeps going. He's good. He's a former prosecutor, so he should be. I do think people need to be able to debate on the stage, especially the Republican Party, and bring people to their senses, because I do like divided government myself, and I like lots of points of view. So I really do hope you give him a dollar. I am going to go do that right now. You said $5. You said you'd give him $5. They give $1, you give $5.

I gave Christy $5, I'll give you $5. Do not make me give Vivek Ramaswamy anything. There's things I'd like to give him we're not supposed to say. Anyway, I will read us out, and thank you so much, and good luck with your campaign. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business with some new fresh people, including Don Lemon is coming on next week. So that should be interesting. Thank you so much, Will. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me on.