Pivot - Who is profiting off Reddit stock threads? And the "Marshall Plan for Moms"

Episode Date: February 2, 2021

Kara and Scott talk about more fall out from the Reddit/Robinhood stock blitz. They also discuss escalating tensions between Facebook and Apple. Then in Friend of Pivot, we hear from Girls Who Code CEO Reshma Saujani, who is heading up a new movement to have mothers at the center of economic recovery called "The Marshall Plan for Moms". Women account for most of the jobs lost over the course of the pandemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm anxious, Kara. Why? You're from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And I'm anxious, Cara. Why? You're wearing a coat and tie right now. You're wearing a tie, actually. I don't know if you're wearing a coat. I don't see a coat. Why are you so dressed up today? It's really odd. I'm with my other sister from another mother, Stephanie Ruhl, this morning on MSNBC. You dress up for her, but you show up. What does your wife call you? Someone who dresses like an aging skateboarder so i'm trying i brought out my one tie yeah um but uh it's a skinny tie for those who not cannot see it it's a skinny tie and i'm just cool i'm just cool tie clipped it makes me feel

55 again anyways how do you feel in a tie do you do you like ties or what uh you know what actually i like dressing up um do you yeah Yeah, I do. You look nice. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. You look very nice. You look like possibly a professor at NYU or something like that. Anyway, an aging professor at NYU, not an aging skateboarder. That's nice.

I was talking with fucking Richard Quest from CNN. He's like, you seem like a middle-aged, an angry middle-aged man. And I'm like, dude, you're older than I am. Yeah, he's like, he should know about angry middle-aged men. But anyways, anxious, anxious, back to my anxiety. Oh, anxious. Oh, sorry, we're back to you again. I did a podcast with Aswath Damodaran, who's kind of my role model or one of my role models.

Contemporary, right, yes. And I said, I'm anxious. And he said, well, Scott, he's like, can I play therapist? I'm like, please, anyone can play therapist for me. And it's easy. It's easy. Yeah, it is. And he said, look, you've been in the markets long enough to recognize that the markets are over the long term efficient, meaning they return or they attach to some sort of valuation range.

And distinct of the GameStop drama, I do think that the markets, it does feel really strange right now. And that at some point we are going to have, you know, the arc of the markets is curved, jagged and unpredictable, but it does bend towards an attachment towards back to fundamentals. And I'm just very anxious about the markets.

It's like politics. One would hope. We're going to get to that in a minute. But first, speaking of things that never a minute. Maybe it's my chemistry. But first, speaking of things that never change, Apple and Facebook's feud over data privacy is escalating even more. Do you love that? I do.

I love the whole thing. The whole dang thing. Last week, Mark Zuckerberg said, quote, as one of our biggest competitors, accusing Apple of using its, quote, dominant platform position, really, to push its own apps while interfering with Facebook.

They're talking about Messenger, their instant Messenger and stuff like that. Anyway, the next day, Tim Cook shot back without actually naming Facebook, which is even better. He said, quote, in a speech in front of a privacy group, quote, technology does not need vast troves of personal data stitched together across dozens of websites and apps in order to succeed. Advertising existed and thrived for decades without it. If a business is built on misleading users, on data exploitation, on choices that are no choices at all, then it does not deserve our praise.

It deserves reform. That was a nice paragraph. There was another one later that was even worse. What do you think? What do you think? Tim versus Mark. I'm kidding.

Well, you're probably going to forget more on this than I'm going to know, but let's be honest. I do know a lot since I got Tim to throw the first shot many years ago.

You're the one that like pushed him in and started screaming, fight, fight, fight. I shouldn't laugh. Is the app economy or the menace economy, whether it's Robinhood or Facebook, where basically you monetize people's data such that it leads to algorithms of amplification or attention economy. And a great way to get attention is through either addiction or division. Is that

a problem in our economy, in our society? Yes. Does Apple, or is it Apple saying, you know what, I don't like the ad subscription. I don't like the ad model. I like the subscription model where people have to pay for their apps because I get a 30% toll on all of that. So is Tim Cook talking his own book or is Facebook a real menace? The answer is yes. Yeah. He's definitely kind of buttering his own bread here. Yeah, sure.

But there's real problem. Someone said that. I was like, so what? It's good bread. What are you fucking about? There's nothing wrong with it. Here's the thing. It's been a long time stricture of Apple in this.

It's part of their brand and it's actually in their heart too. They actually do believe this, like this issue around data. Not to say they don't have all kinds of problems. And let me just clear that away. But he is a hundred, it doesn't mean that he's not a hundred percent right on this

and calling it. It's interesting that he's decided to escalate it. Now, you know, Mark feels like he's being petty and trying to do, you know, this, oh, we're going to get them for antitrust. Really, he should not open that can of worms even slightly because their social media issues and all kinds of data issues are really quite profound. And so they're going to try to push to be victim to Apple, which I think is good luck with that. That's a tough one.

That's going to be tough. I was talking to Jason Fried, who is fighting with Apple on Basecamp, and even he was like, that's ridiculous, Kara. Like, they have issues around the App Store, and they want reform of the App Store. But I think the idea, you know, he said on any, you know, any day of the week and twice on Sunday, I'd prefer Apple over Facebook, which is interesting. But I think it's interesting that Cook has decided to be very firm about this, and I hope to talk to him soon about it. And, you know, I've asked Mark for an interview. I doubt he'll do it. But nonetheless, it's really going to be interesting, and we'll see where it comes down. I think the issue, and I'm thinking about writing about this this week,

is likability. I think Apple is liked in Washington better, and Tim Cook is liked. Facebook is disliked, and Mark Zuckerberg is disliked. And so I think it'll make a difference that people sort of want to give Apple the benefit of the doubt. They like their products. They don't feel like they've been screwed every five minutes. And people have a sense that maybe Facebook has caused some problems. So I think that's really, you know, they're not likable enough is the problem.

You're exactly right. We personify brands. And we feel as if we have a relationship with them. I'm constantly trying to remind people. A company is an abstract notion. It's a legal entity in Delaware. It's not concerned with the condition of your soul. It's not going to take care of you when you're older. And so, but we want to have relationships with them. And so we personify them. And the easiest way to personify them is to think you're in a relationship with its leadership. And I just imagine literally Sheryl Sandberg this morning

calling the 800 people who try and manicure her and Mark Zuckerberg's image into a room and saying, why can't you make us like Tim Cook? He has managed his brand. And I realize it's more than just brand. Brands are two parts. They're promise, but they're also performance. I genuinely think, and maybe I've drank the Kool-Aid here.

I think Tim Cook is a really good man who is very concerned about the welfare of the Commonwealth. And I like his personal story. I just like, I like the fact he came out of supply chain. You like him. You like him.

You just get the sense like, if Tim Cook called you and said, I want to be godfather to your son, you just, or your daughter, you just go, yeah, yeah, that'd be a good idea. He just seems like a very decent man. Whereas Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg, their brands, I think that's a tough one. So you do not want to get into a ring. If I were Facebook

right now, I would say, this is a thought. I would try and own it and say, Tim, we want to work with you to solve this problem. Yeah, but I don't think there's working with them here. I think this is an existential threat. Many smart people at Facebook and other places think this is the existential threat. There's Apple. Apple, that they could really do damage in this area. Did it have to be Tim Cook and not a senator? That's right.

That's the point I was going to make. Like, this is really interesting because one of the, and they're going to do anything they can. The issue is, again, Tim Cook was friendly enough with the Trump administration. He did not, like, remember he took Trump to the factory and put up with his ridiculous rants, just sat there quietly. He's also quite friendly with she. I mean, there's a- With Ivanka and others. This is a hall of mirrors everywhere.

But Mark Zuckerberg did a full bear hug with the Trump administration. And that's different. Tim looked like he was like hostage crisis and I'll deal with them. But he did not do this ridiculous bear hug that I think it is the perception that Facebook had, especially with Joel Kaplan sitting behind Brent Kavanaugh and everything else. So I think that every way they've played it, like if you looked at a lot of those hearings, nobody was asking Tim a question. They were all focused on Mark. And that's the problem. So it's not, you know,

Goliath versus Goliath is not quite the same thing here. It's Goliath versus handsome Goliath. I don't know. Yeah, well, what a symbol, right? Right. And let me be clear. I believe that the app store shouldn't be broken up. It should be regulated, though.

It does command. It does have just too much power. A hundred percent. They're just less exposed. They're just much less exposed. You do not want... It's like getting into any sort of public reputational feud with Tim Cook is like getting into a Twitter war with AOC. You just don't do it.

It's a mistake. You're going to lose. Well, thinking of losing things, we're going to get into the big stories. I agree with you. I think Mark, Mark, back away from Tim Cook, really, truly. Okay, Scott, big stories. We're going to get into it. We're going to check back in on your favorite tale, which you just discussed, Robin Hood's saga.

Since we left, Robin Hood's severely limited users' ability to buy more shares of GameStop after last week's frenzy, they're still sort of doing it. Some users have joined a class action suit against the company. Elon Musk last night, in a rather boring interview on Clubhouse, actually got into it with the CEO of Robinhood. Not in a really get-into-it way, but anyway, asking him if there was some secret group of people trying to make him do what he did. This set of lots of backlash from lawmakers, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Elizabeth Warren, even Ted Cruz called on Congress to investigate the company. The SEC said it will, quote, quote, closer review actions taken by regulated entities that may disadvantage investors or otherwise unduly inhibit their ability to trade certain securities. There's a thing that stopped them, asked them to have more money available, essentially, these settling houses.

Robinhood explained that restricted stock buying, not because we wanted to stop people from buying these stocks, but due to the volatility of these stocks, the company was required to come up with 10 times the deposit requirements it had a week earlier in order to execute those trades. To do so, the company had to quickly draw on a number of credit lines.

On Thursday, Robinhood said it was raising more than $1 billion from its existing investors. Meanwhile, as of Monday, GameStop stock is crashing. By the way, I signed up for Public this weekend. You did? Yes, I did. I want to try it out. I want to see.

I'm going to try them all out. I actually have a Robinhood account somewhere in there. So I just feel like I need to disclose I'm an investor, but I invested after I went on a rant against Robin Hood because public is 40% women, doesn't allow margin, doesn't allow options. And what did they just announce, Kara? What did they announce? I sent it to you, tipping. Tipping instead of selling their, what is that called? They don't sell their data flow. What is it called? Something flow? Order flow. You don't sell your order flow. Yeah. They have a bigger name for it. And the reason why that's good is because-

Explain what that is for people who are not smart about the internet. I'm not sure I'm smart about it. I mean, excuse me about investing. Order flow, basically, they sell the order flow because there are hedge funds and clearing groups that want to know what retail investors are doing. Now, whether they're doing that to front run the trade, whether they're doing that such that they can sell you stock at a slightly higher price than you might get otherwise if you were paying a commission and there was better execution. We're not entirely sure. But again, it goes back to this notion that when you are not charging people anything to mine their data as sort of a digital corpus of data, it usually ends up in bad places. And public has made the gangster move in my view.

But before they did it, they changed their thing. Let me go with more stuff. This is just fascinating. Elon was trying to put together this conspiracy, I don't think it's there, but these things like Apex, their clearinghouses, they had to have more money

on hand, essentially, because of the volatility. So who's responsible here? The SEC wasn't part of this. Who was it? This is fascinating. So, there's a lot to unpack. And let me be clear, I think Robinhood is a menace that treats their consumers as the product and ultimately, I think, leads to dark places. I've made that clear. Dark places. But AOC and Senator Warren, in this instance instance and the class actions provide financing for your margin are constantly looking at the likelihood

that the market could have some sort of wild ride one day, and then the money that people borrowed on margin, the stock crashed more. Say you buy $100 worth of GameStop stock and someone finances $100 in margin, so you buy $200 worth and it crashes more than 50% in a given day. What they say is, okay, if GameStop is only 1% of the stock that a brokerage is doing, then we're not that worried. But when all of a sudden half your account holders own GameStop stock, the clearance guys and the people financing your margin just basically call you and say, you can no longer trade in this stock.

and the people financing your margin just basically call you and say, you can no longer trade in this stock. So the notion that Citadel conspired with Robinhood to support another hedge fund just isn't true. This has happened before. They got caught in a capital squeeze. The more interesting thing here is who's bailing them out. And their existing investors, including Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia, I think NEA, have all come in not for one and a half billion. I heard about this piece of paper circulating Thursday night where they're raising another three and a half billion dollars. And it feeds to this bigger narrative

around who is making money here. Right. So who is gonna make tens of billions of dollars here? We all think, oh, they stuck it to the man because this hedge fund lost $3 billion. The people who are gonna make tens of billions of dollars here. We all think, oh, they stuck it to the man because this hedge fund lost $3 billion. The people who are going to make tens of billions of dollars are the people, quite frank, the investors in Reddit. I'm sorry, the investors in Robinhood. Robinhood signed up a million new accounts on Thursday. They did, more than that, yeah.

All of this craziness that, oh, they did something wrong. No, they do something wrong every day, but them having their clearance and their margin financiers pull stocks down for not letting them trade in certain stocks, that was poor scenario planning, but they didn't, I would argue they really didn't do anything wrong. Who else is making money here? Who else is making money?

Okay, what about the Winklevoss twins, billionaires from Harvard who say, let's go into silver. All right, that's your movement. The wealthiest man in the world, Elon Musk. And a guy who made all his money at Facebook. Those are our William Wallaces around this movement. You have hedge funds. It is interesting.

You have hedge funds making tens or big established players here, venture capitalists making tens of billions of dollars. Yeah, they're thrilled to do it. And they don't care how Reddit makes money. You know what I mean? Like these are the same, it's the exact same people who are in Robinhood that have been in all the others, Uber, Facebook, et cetera.

That's what, you know, I should do a chart of the ownership of all these, what you call menace companies. And they're all the same. It's a lot of the same people. Let me just finish. Let me just finish. I'm sorry, go ahead, Karen.

But Reddit, I just did an interview with Steve Huffman, is owned, it's an independent that's owned a lot by Advanced Publications. It's one of their, it went independent entity. Advanced Publications is Condé Nast owner, owns it. There's Tencent is in there. There's a whole bunch of owners in there. Reddit, I'm not.

I just interviewed Steve Huffman, just posted today. I don't necessarily blame them for it. These are just message boards where people are talking. I think it's the transactional thing that is hidden and who they take advantage of

for this free investing tools, right? It's not transparent in what they're doing. I don't know necessarily if Reddit's at fault in this case. I mean, they're just talking. I personally don't think Reddit's done anything wrong. I'm just saying the people who own Reddit are the ones who are going to make billions here.

The people who own Robinhood are the ones who are going to make billions. I think more so the Robinhood, more so these things. And I think that these hedge funds were on both sides of these trades. And so this idea of, that's what Steve and I talked about,

was the idea of a David versus Goliath thing. Oh, that's what Steve and I talked about was the idea of a David versus Goliath thing. I'm not so sure. Oh, that's ridiculous. A couple of things. One, who else is going to make a shit ton of money? Goldman Sachs, who's out saying that there's froth in the market, but they're taking Robinhood public. They'll raise $3 billion. They'll get a quarter of a billion dollars and manage all their money. They'll get all sorts of trust planning fees. But meanwhile, they're concerned about froth in the market. Yeah. Right, and this falls into a much larger narrative, which is the same construct that has always existed

in society back to the middle ages. And that is when you see a movement, sometimes it's a righteous movement. Black Lives Matter, the civil rights movement, these are righteous movements. Most movements, most movements are a bunch of older men trying to get wealthier using the call sign of God or Christianity or of stick it to the man and buy more silver. And oh, there's weapons of mass destruction. So let's go get them such

that Hal Burton can rebuild these fields. And me as the vice president, and I own shares in Hal Burton. And what do you know? My shares end up $60 million. Society is consistently reinforcing the same narrative. And that is you young people go do something for us. Let's stick it to the man. But you know what you are? You're the man's stick. And the same thing is happening here.

They're sticking it to a different man. That's what they're trying to do. And I think that what was interesting is watching, listening to, I didn't listen to it last night because I'm not part of Clubhouse, but reading about it, Elon questioning the CEO of Robinhood is not precisely the kind of accountability we want here. You know what I mean? Like, and I know they all think they're doing their own journalism and you saw the story about Andreessen, I think recently about Andreessen Horowitz doing their own media and getting through to go around reporters, et cetera, et cetera.

They can go around as much as they want, go for it. You know, and that Facebook doing these, go right ahead, go around us, try, good luck. We'll still keep doing our jobs. That's my feeling, is that they don't, like, figuring out who has the real accountability here is going to be almost impossible. And then what they do is they dress it up. And in some cases, yes, it is these investors being just as smart as hedge funds, 100%. And it's good that more people are in the market.

But you can have that thought and at the same time realize you may be being taken advantage of by far wealthier people in the shadows. And that's my issue with this is there's all kinds of rich people involved in all this. And they're all talking about, you know, off with their heads. Well, they're the richest people on earth. That's, I think, the problem we have going forward. And where it's going, I don't know.

I don't even know what GameStop is today. But it's just, they'll pick another thing. It's just a game. It's just a game. It's just a game. And maybe you can catch it, people, individual retail investor. But the people who can really catch it are the rich people. I'm sorry to give you that piece of news, unfortunately. The rage is warranted.

There was a study that just came out that billionaires have increased their wealth from $1.9 trillion to to 4 trillion since 2010. Whereas federal minimum wage has gone from 7.25 to 7.25. These bailouts are largely nothing, an attempt to maintain the wealth of older people such that the gale force winds of creative destruction that benefit young people don't blow. There is nothing but a massive transfer of wealth that our society has promoted, especially over the last 30 years from young people to old people. Their rage is warranted. The question is, all right, how are you deploying that rage? And if you think that a movement is worthwhile, then fine. But movements typically cost money. If you're learning here, then fine.

That's fine too. If you're all over this all day and you think you have some sophistication, you're learning about trading, then fine. But be clear. The question is, who are you fighting the war against? Are you being heavy handed with the wrong people? Yeah, this is really important. I think one of the things, and let's wrap it up because we have our guests coming, is that we have a situation where there's lots of non-transparent players here. And that's the issue we have. I think one of the—it reminds me, I was just reading a story, and it's not the same thing, but a lot of the people that got caught up in Trump's thing and ended up doing illegal things at the Capitol, you know, were angry. You could see—I don't— I believe these people's anger is justified. In that case, they were just fooled.

Call sign of a movement. But Trump raised, Trump raised enormous amounts of money on that. Like that's, and you sort of like. Perfect example. Perfect example. But I don't want to compare these people to the Capitol because that's not what I mean to do.

So anyway, it's just the idea of maybe someone else is profiting off your rage. And that's, and I think, but I think you should still be in it. So anyway, we's just the idea of maybe someone else is profiting off your rage. And I think you should still be in it. So anyway, we're going to end before we anger all the Reddit movement people. Oh, it's too late. They're all over me. Are they? They should be.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, they are. Well, you did call them incels. Anyway, all right, Scott, we're going to leave here before you say something you'll regret, and then we'll be all over this week. Scott, let's go on a quick break. We'll come back. We'll talk to friend of Pivot on women's job loss during the pandemic, speaking of people who have suffered, and how the Biden administration should address this issue.

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remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things, and it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new Reimagine Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance,

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who don't deserve all this money. Now we're talking about people who do. Last week, Reshma and 50 women leaders across industries took out an ad in the New York Times calling for the Biden administration to establish a task force to create a Marshall Plan for moms. Reshma, would you start to talk about what you're doing here? Because, you know, there's been so many stories about how women in the workplace have suffered really badly during the pandemic. No surprise. They have to stay home, child care, et cetera, et cetera.

What do you mean? Can you explain what you're calling on them to do and how you came up with the plan? Yeah, I mean, we're in a national crisis. Because of the pandemic, the labor participation rate of women is where it was in the 1980s. It took us nine months to lose almost 30 years of progress. 100% of the jobs lost in December were women.

And every woman I know is exhausted. When schools closed, we became teachers, nannies, tech support cooks, everything. All the while, we're trying to keep our full-time jobs. And so we need a Marshall Plan for moms. And what I mean by that is we need a 360 plan that gets women back to work. Not in a few decades, but in a few months.

And part of that plan, I think, is a basic income payment to women that's means tested. It means passing legislation like paid leave, affordable daycare, pay equity, right? And not just as a stopgap for this year, but something that is literally embedded in society, which has never happened. Right, right. We need to open up schools safely five days a week. And we need to retrain mothers so they're ready when their jobs are open. Because part of this crisis happened because many women were in industries

that have been disproportionately hit by the recession. Right? Service, hospitality, education. These jobs aren't coming back. And also women who have jobs that do work remotely also are doing... My wife has left her job because of, you know what I mean, just couldn't do it. We couldn't do everything at the same time. Women have voluntarily in this case, but not that voluntarily, you know, women have lost 5.4 million jobs over the course of the pandemic.

So why have women's jobs taken a bigger hit this year than men? And then we'll go to Scott for a question. Well, I think you alluded to it, right? Motherhood is a choice, but we didn't choose this. When they closed schools, they've created a child care crisis. And in most households, moms are the ones that are doing most of the child care and most of the remote schooling. And the second part is the fact that many women and women of color, right, are hit in these jobs that weren't pandemic

proof. Sacrificial workers, I call them. Absolutely. And so we got to really retrain that. Look, I think that we have an opportunity to put motherhood at the center of any recovery plan and to rebuild it. And, you know, part of why this is so important and part of why I think in many ways we have an opportunity is that we've been fighting for women's equality for centuries. And we're at a moment to finish that fight and to rebuild our economy to finally value women's work. Scott? Well, just words, sister. You know, as a son of a single mother, I saw what happened when my parents got divorced. Both same level of education, both talented people.

My mom could be a secretary, a travel agent, or a school teacher and made $900 a month. My dad went on to be a salesman for ITT at, you know, $8,000 a month. I mean, our lives has changed dramatically. And I always thought it wasn't about, I didn't even think it was about women's rights. I was like, we just needed more fucking money. And in Northern Europe, I think they've embraced the notion that it's important that the species continue to propagate and that you need thoughtful, loving environments. And it feels sexist to say, but that disproportionately falls on the shoulders of women. I've seen it firsthand in this pandemic when all of a sudden the schools close and who has to sit next to the kid and make sure

that the kid doesn't come off the tracks. We can all talk about sharing responsibilities, but it's usually the woman. I would love to hear more about how you think it should be means tested. And also, doesn't really a Marshall Plan for women, doesn't it need to really, don't we really need to think about Planned Parenthood? Because if you talk about women under the age of 30 without kids, they've largely closed the wage gap. It's when they have kids that things come off the rails and they go to 73 cents on the dollar.

Isn't it really about giving, I'm going on, I'm gonna stop there. Yes, please do, let Reddy talk. I was just gonna interject. As usual, I turned it back to my experiences. I'm going to stop there. Yes, please do. Let Reddy talk. I was just going to interject. As usual, I turned it back to my experiences. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Don't we need some other things?

Don't we need to attack this from a number of angles? We do. We do. Look, mothers face a motherhood penalty before COVID, and they're going to face one afterwards. Right? There's no hiding on our Zoom screen, right? My five-year-old, my one-year-old, what's happening in my home? on our Zoom screen, right?

My five-year-old, my one-year-old, what's happening in my home? And the reality is, is that when we get back to the real world, we're not going to get supported for that. We're going to get penalized even more. And so we got to really keep our eye on that, which is why part of this plan is on pushing companies to make sure that they have flexibility,

that they are rooting out the motherhood penalty, that we're really looking at the way mothers are treated in the workforce. To your question about the payment, how much should it be? How do we get there? That's my hope that the Biden administration pulls together a task force that can really answer this very question. And they're responsible for researching and implementing a plan. But the point is, is we have to do something. And America's mothers can't continue to be our country's social safety net. So how do you get their attention? What is their response?

I mean, obviously, we had Ivanka sort of swanning around pretending, you know, with her 400 helpers, et cetera. How do you get their attention? helpers, et cetera. How do you get their attention? Because you have to individually get attention of people, which is kind of ridiculous given this is a critically important question for everybody. Yeah, look, we have had over 7,000 people sign this petition. Emails are pouring in from legislators and CEOs and students from across the country saying, how can I help? And so we're just, you know, quite frankly, continuing to put gas on it and putting pressure on the administration to put together a task force, you know, so we don't just piecemeal recovery, right? Like, okay, we'll pass this child care credit. We'll talk about

paid leave. Like we need an entire 360 plan that is looking at this from all angles. There are a couple of members in Congress who are looking to draft a bill. There's state legislators probably in like six or seven states that have reached out that are looking to do the same. So what would that bill look like? What would be the critical thing? Well, they're in the process of kind of drafting what a model legislation is, but I think it does look at like, you know, how do you have, care benefits federally or in the state? Is there an opportunity to come up with a basic income payment to moms? It's interesting, and Scott, I think you raised this. This is a conversation that's happening globally.

This isn't just happening to American women. It's happening all across the world. Some countries are already kind of evolved in this, and they've realized that the COVID pandemic disproportionately affected mothers and they have offered payments. India did that. And India is looking right now, they're having a huge debate in their parliament about whether they want to continue that. So I almost feel like the conversation is finally on the table to really look at motherhood in its totality, look to see who's doing the unseen work, what's the benefit to society, and start valuing it

because we don't value what we get for free. And we know that now. What about corporations? What about their, because a lot of this change does come from corporations and they're still arguing over those smallest of things, gimmies that they give to employees. Oh, absolutely.

I mean, again, I think, Kara, you know this, and we have had a huge drove of women leaving tech, and it's gotten worse in the pandemic. I mean, you alluded to what's happened with your partner. I think that that story is happening all across America. So there has to be pressure put on companies to say, how many women left? Why did they leave? What are you doing to bring them back? What's your flexibility policy? Are you simply going to make mothers and women work more hours for less pay? Is it an opportunity for us to say maybe companies should be paying for daycare? How do we do that? I think we got to put it all on the table. But we know that companies aren't going to just do this of their

own free will. This is why capitalism is fundamentally broken. I think there needs to be pressure coming from the government, coming from state legislators, coming from activists. I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of women and workers that represent this letter and this ad campaign that we've put together. We're not being quiet. We're, in fact, just getting louder. Well, I do think- But Reshma, can I stop there? Because I worry that for the last several decades, we keep waiting on the better angels of corporations to show up.

And the ones that can't afford to be better angels, that have better parental leave or family leave policies, are the ones that make the most money and, quite frankly, attract people who have graduate degrees and may not need as much help as other people in our society. And the thing that scares me about your movement is that people make the mistake of thinking we can't afford it. Well, if we can afford to give $750 billion

to small businesses, who, by the way, are owned by the wealthiest cohort in America, and that is essentially millionaires are the biggest cohort of small business owners. Take that $750 billion, 40 million households have children. Take the bottom half, the ones that really need the money, you could give each of them $40,000.

So let's, what I'll put to you is, let's not wait on corporations. Let's identify the people responsible for the next generation who need help and just give them money. Just give them money instead of hoping that Mark Zuckerberg gives more family leave. Yeah, but how do you do that, square that with now they're arguing over stimulus money? Like this is not endless money. We have this huge deficit and the government's going to be nervous about spending it specifically. Are you

worried about that? Listen, I think that if we're going to continue to get the economy back on its feet, the center of that plan has to include mothers. And we have to be embedded in every single piece and part of policy. But I think you're right. Look, I think it starts with a signal from government and policymakers of who's important. America doesn't function without its moms, period. And I think you are right. One of the biggest things I've learned as being CEO of Girls Who Code is that we don't live in a meritocracy. No. And we can't depend on Silicon Valley to just do the right thing.

Yeah. And they won't. And I have been praying for some activism and some organizing. Keep praying, Reshma. And they don't care. They don't. They don't care. But you know what?

and they don't care. They don't, but you know what? I think that one of the things that has happened right now is people are pissed off and we have found voice and we know how to organize. I have been blown away at the response that one ad in the New York Times has set off. Huh, that's interesting. Why did you decide to do that?

What is your next move? Because one of the things I think you do, you are tapping into, we were just talking about rage, investment rage, and different political rage. One of the things that's interesting is it's up and down the economic scale, Zoom school, what it's done to people. Like people who are wealthy and at home,

they don't suffer nearly the kind of difficulty that people on the lower end, including internet access. But everyone realizes how bad it is when the safety net's not there. And that's, even though it's not in their interest of wealthier people, it does put them, have a commonality of anger, which is interesting when you hear people talking about this. And I'm like, well, can you imagine if you didn't have internet access, if you had to go to the restaurant, if you had to go to the coffee shop, which you can't go to anymore? And what about in the winter?

You know, it starts to, you know, it starts to escalate the idea of who this is all for, essentially. To your notion, though, about the economy and Reshma, I think this is, I'm just thinking about the talking points to get you the capital you need. You know what one of the many wonderful things about mothers who are in the lower medium of income is when you give them money? They spend it. They spend it. And if you want true stimulus, if you really wanted to stimulate the economy, there's a capitalist argument to give the money to mothers. You will get a multiplier effect there as opposed to get this. Do you realize four out of five people right now get stimulus, don't plan to spend it? No, their savings has gone up like crazy.

So Reshma, what's your next move? What's your next move? What is the thing? You have the ad, you've got people's attention. And again, we've been down this road before to no effect. I mean, I think I've been talking about paid leave for 30 years now. Yeah, you have, you have.

And listen, you're relentless and I'm relentless. So what's the next tactical move? So I think the next tactical move is to put pressure on the Biden administration to put together a task force. Okay. So that we are looking at this. I know it does. But you know me. I'm not a bureaucrat.

Right. I just think that we need to be looking at this from all sides, in commerce and treasury, you know, from all aspects of it. looking at this from all sides, in commerce, in treasury, from all aspects of it. I think, secondly, we've got to put pressure on Congress because some sort of recovery package is going to come to them. It's got to include moms, and there's a lot of men in Congress, right? Yeah, I noticed. Yeah, I noticed, right? So I think that continuing to build a movement that is putting pressure on legislators to keep thinking about us. I think we got to put pressure on to making sure that schools reopen five days a week safely. There's

still a lot of conversation here in my state, New York, and I'm sure in your state that, oh, it might still be hybrid in the fall. Well, if that happens, forget about it. Forget about 1989 labor participation. We're back in the 1960s. Yeah. Who is leading the charge in D.C., though? Who is fighting the good fight? Who are the key legislators? And who's in the ways. Yeah. Who is leading the charge in D.C., though? Who is fighting the good fight? Who are the key legislators? And who's in the way, Reshma? Who do we have to kick ass? Yeah, it's equally important, right?

It's a good question. Look, I don't think anybody is in the way yet, but nobody's leading the charge. So anybody listening, like, lead the charge. Who would be? I do think, look, I mean, there are legislators who've been leading on paid leave, but we still haven't got it done. I can't think of anybody better than Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, quite frankly. Kamala Harris had a single mom. She is a stepmother.

Joe Biden is one of the most compassionate, empathetic feminists that I know. So they should be leading this. This is the right administration to get this done. But do they have the political capital to do it at this moment? They've got to get through stimulus. They've got to get through this. This is the right administration to get this done. But do they have the political capital to do it at this moment? They've got to get through stimulus. They've got to get through this. They've got the trial of Donald Trump, et cetera, et cetera. And states the same way. They've got to get the vaccines. There's a lot going on. Do you think this will get- But we don't get America back on its feet unless we do this. Because like you said, the vast majority of the job losses are

coming from mothers and it's coming because of these other issues about childcare and school reopenings. So it's got to get done or it's never going to happen. You can give people as much money as you want, but if you don't give it to mothers who can then use it to kind of, you know, towards childcare, towards, you know, thinking about retraining, then nothing happens. And we got to just understand that. And I think people are starting to. I'm going to ask you, what does it mean for young women just joining the workforce too? Because you have to have allies, but a lot of times that doesn't work out the same way. People thinking 10 years in their future kind of thing. I mean, this is one of the reasons why I did this.

Because, you know, we have a crisis with moms and we had to put them at the center because our daughters are watching us. And we had to put them at the center because our daughters are watching us. And they are watching us take on this work and not get recognized and not get compensated for it. And so it matters. We have to send a signal to the girls that women's labor counts and their careers count and their dreams won't be taken for granted. And there's a reason also why the birth rate is down in this country. Because many young women look at us and be like, oh, no.

Right. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that is the wrong message. What could someone do right now? I mean, let's hope that Biden and Harris get past the big issues and then focus on this one and or even adopted as core to moving forward. What could someone do right now if they wanted to help move this movement forward? Go to Marshall Plan for Moms, sign the petition, write your legislator, ask about what they're doing across the states on this legislation, and then ask your company, your employer, put together a Marshall Plan for Moms task force at your company and ask them, how many women have left?

What are you doing for flexibility? What are you doing to support me when we come back? Because I think that the biggest thing for us on a, just kind of a daily basis, right, is like, you know, we have to get rid of the motherhood penalty, not just in our workplace, but in our homes. Like, you know, part of this movement is a cultural movement. You know, I know I have, you know, conversations with my partner every day and I have a pretty good one. You know, my husband and I was incredible, but we still have those hard conversations

about who's doing what and why. Yes. Yes, everybody does. Anyway, this is very helpful. I'm glad you did this, Reshma. Continue to press. Reshma is the founder and CEO of Girls Who Code and now an advocate for the Marshall Plan for Moms.

Thank you, Reshma. Thank you for your good work, Reshma. Thank you, Karen and Scott, for having me. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay. The Capital Ideas Podcast now features a series hosted by Capital Group CEO, Mike Gitlin. Through the words and experiences of investment professionals, you'll discover what differentiates their investment approach, what learnings have shifted their career trajectories,

and how do they find their next great idea? Invest 30 minutes in an episode today. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. You already know that AI is transforming the world around us, but lost in all the enthusiasm and excitement, is a really important question. How can AI actually work for you? And where should you even start? Claude from Anthropic may be the answer. Claude is a next-generation AI assistant, built to help you work more efficiently without sacrificing safety or reliability. Anthropic's latest model, Claude 3.5 Sonnet, can help you organize thoughts, solve tricky problems, analyze data, and more. Whether Thank you. To learn more, visit anthropic.com slash Claude. That's anthropic.com slash Claude. Okay, Scott, wins and fails. Wins and fails, Scott.

Okay, so my fail is, and these are both inspired by the New York Times. There's some great reporting by Alan Blinder. both inspired by the New York Times. There's some great reporting by Alan Blinder. And, you know, when your house is on fire, you're not focused on how the dog is doing. We've been taken off track so much over the last four years. And something I used to think a lot about is,

there was a great article today about football practices pose more concussion risk than games studies suggest. Basically, I love college football. I love watching the UCLA Bruins. I just love college football. I played intramural football, loved it. And I do think concussions and injuries to young men sustained over repeated head injuries is something that just needs more attention or renewed attention.

Well, it got a lot for a while there. But that's the point. It kind of went away, right? It did indeed. And because there's short-term money involved, because the manifestation of these effects don't pop up or they don't manifest for sometimes decades. I think this is a really, I think it's a terrible thing. I've stopped watching college football because I just,

until they figure out the technology here, and I'm not sure they can, because it's not even about the impact, it's about the rotation of the head. What about robot football? That's my solution. Perfect. We watch that, Robot Wars.

Yeah, but they won't do that. That's a ton of fun. You know, I wouldn't let my kids play football. That was a big discussion with Louie. And it's an amazing sport and a ton of, it's a fantastic sport, unfortunately. He played flag football. He played flag football. That's right, unfortunately.

But he was good at it. It's just, there's, there's. It's so damaging. It really is. I ran into a big NFL person and I had said something like this, like, I'm never going to let my kids play. It's ridiculous. It's like asking to, like asking for trouble, essentially.

And they said, this big NFL person came up to me and was like, Kara, you know, you should get your kids to play football. I said, well, if I wanted them to lose their brain by 25, sure, I'd let them do that. But I don't think so, sir. It was really, it was fascinating that I just, I think a lot of parents have turned away from it, you know, thinking about it and the damage. Largely because it's so, like, not everybody gets this, by the way. It doesn't happen to everybody.

But that you are sort of in this weird lottery that you could, like kind of like this weird sort of death, like brain damage lottery. It's really too, it's too much of a risk. It's sort of like letting your kids, you know, jump out of airplanes. I think that's right. And then the other, I don't know if this is a loss or a win, but did you read the article, article again in the New York Times, a vast web of vengeance?

Yes, that was by Kashmir Hill. Oh my gosh, well done. And you know what? Explain it for the people, explain it for what happened. Because of all the protections and the fact that the web or, you know, remember the movie Alien that said in space, no one can hear you scream?

Well, on the internet, nobody knows who you really are and what your intentions are. And it's turned into something very dangerous. And I've experienced this, I know you have, on what I'll call a very minor level. And that is, for example, just this past week, this kid weighed in on my Twitter and said, I took your online course and it was awful and I was really disappointed. And it totally freaked me out. And I got everyone together from the company and said, who was this kid?

Why was he just so disappointed? Let's get him a refund. And then once someone on the call goes, have you seen his Twitter profile? He's been attacking you for your comments on GameStop. And it's like, OK, so take that times a million on the internet. And you have people, it's about, okay, so take that times a million on the internet and you have people, it's about a woman who it sounds like struggles

with mental illness, who when she has a vendetta against a neighbor, one of her lawyers, starts spreading rumors on various message boards that these people are pedophiles. And this content, and now there's an industry where these places where you post these things, you have to pay them to get content taken down. So there's an industry where these places where you post these things you have to pay them to get content taken down

so there's a profit motive to circulate to traffic and really awful false content and what I would like to think and I think we know

some of these people I think there are people out there who use who create fake Twitter accounts and go after people anonymously

around rather than address the issue they disagree with them on in a fact-based, thoughtful way, they try and attack their credibility and say really heinous things about them. And just as what happened to this woman, we will find out about you. We will find out that, oh, you had 11 Twitter accounts and you were trying to undermine someone's credibility and attack them personally.

I think there is so much of that going on. Well, I think it goes to the tools, the tools that are not being monitored. These tools are dangerous. And so they can lead, anything that humans do terribly, they can do times a hundred on these. They're just scaling it. The internet just scaled it.

They're scaling it. Scaling, you know, like people handing out, you know, Xerox copies about someone in a neighborhood. It's just like really does take each other. And you asked a question. That story, you must, yes. A really important question. Elizabeth Warren, Senator Warren said this as well, with around GameStop and Reddit,

and they're just scaling. Where the fuck is the SEC? Right. They should be weighing in every day. This is the volatility. These are the dangers. This is our viewpoint. Well, they're going to. They literally just got the job and it had been ignored for the Trump administration.

There's got to be a referee on the field. I know. I agree. But this is people that just literally got their passes into government buildings. And where's the FCC on this stuff? They also have to clear out the Trump people who've embedded themselves. Like this is just, you know what I mean? The damage the Trump administration has done in so many ways, including this way, the enforcement stuff, you know, just in their, in their ridiculous attempt to deregulate, not, no

problem getting rid of some regulations, but the kind of demented hatred towards all decent regulation is really quite something. I think that's the biggest fail, I think, despite of all the many fails. And by the way, there's lots of them. And I think we'll be impacted for years to come. We've had a national temper tantrum, and it has to stop. And hopefully after this, Trump will talk about it next week. It started well before Trump, though.

You know it started. It started with Reagan. Yes, it did. Yes, 100%. This whole thing, I'm from the government, though. You know it started. It started with Reagan. Yes, it did. A hundred. Yes, a hundred percent. This whole thing, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. And if you go back, Howard, the guy who did the proposition in California that ruined the whole budget process. Howard Jarvis? So nobody could govern

correctly. Howard Jarvis. Yes. It's just people mad about government. Just the whole idea that government sucks is a very profound and strong one. But we'll see where it goes. But I agree. That's a very good story to read. It's a very profound and strong one. But we'll see where it goes. But I agree. That's a very good story to read.

It's by Kashmir Hill, and it's in the New York Times. And you will be terrified. It's great journalism. I mean, she really tracked down. She really did a lot of work here. And she herself got dissed, too, the whole thing. The whole thing is really fascinating. Well, this individual started attacking her?

Yeah, exactly. Spreading rumors about her online. Do you have a win, Kara? Indeed, I've had so many people. Win. Oh, God, let's win. You know what? Bridgerton.

Well, you're now into Bridgerton? Yes, because I finally did. I watched The Dig with Carey Mulligan, who's also in another great movie, Promising Young Woman. And that was very good, and it was very well done and very tasteful. But then we watched Bridgerton. And as Amanda said, I think she said it perfectly, that was like a substantive meal. Bridgerton's like a really good cookie. Like a really good chocolate chip cookie.

It is so, I just can't wait to watch it again. I'm watching it one episode by one episode. They're beautiful. It's funny. It's substantive enough. It's not substantive at all. There's a lot of dresses happening, and I don't even like dresses. I like Bridgerton.

I got to say, Netflix has paid a lot of money for certain people. In this case, Shonda Rhimes, I think, is going to be an enormous. Her unfettered on a platform. She was already so successful on all the other platforms where there was more, where she didn't have quite as much right now. She has unfettered power, I think, at Netflix. And I think she's blooming again.

Once again, she's such a hit. She's the most important creator of television going right now, I think, really in terms of just beautifully done. Well done. Well done, Shonda Rhimes. Shonda, way to go. Shonda Rimes. Shonda, way to go. Shonda.

Nice. Shonda, you're the best. And as you know, Cobra Kai still. But nonetheless, Bridgerton is my new favorite. Anyway, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. There's going to be lots to talk about. We're going to watch the stock market closely this week.

We have to also get to eventually General Motors aiming to sell only zero emission cars by 2035. By 2035. I love that. Oh, come on. We're so agile. We're putting out press releases about what we're going to be in 2035.

Hey, that's not that far away, my friend. It's not that far away. All right. We're going to go. We'll be back Friday for more. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your questions for the Pivot podcast. The link is also in our show notes.

Scott, please, dressed in your tie, read us out. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Ernie Indretat engineered this episode. Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. user, check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Marshall Plan for Moms. Again, that's MarshallPlanForMoms.com. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things. We'll see you next time. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system, you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new, reimagined Nissan Kicks.

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