Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Book Club Edition: Cosmos Award–winning author Dava Sobel

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Only six people have received The Planetary Society’s Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science. We were honored to present it to author and historian Dava Sobel in May of 2025. She has created a brilliant library of books that illuminate the lives and work of great scientists, many of whom have been under-appreciated. Each of Dava’s works is also overflowing with the wonder of science and discovery. It’s no wonder we decided to feature Dava and her books in the Society book club. That month-long celebration was capped by a live, online interview conducted by Dava’s friend and fan Mat Kaplan.  Here’s that conversation.  Discover more at: https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/book-club-dava-sobelSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello again, everyone. I'm At Kaplan, Senior Communications Advisor at the Planetary Society, and former host of Planetary Radio. Here's the third in our new monthly series that brings the best of the Planetary Society Book Club to Planrat List. listeners. This month's guest is very special to us. Davis-Obell is so much more than a science communicator, Galileo's daughter, a more perfect heaven, longitude, the glass universe, planets, and her most recent masterpiece, The Elements of Marie Curie. I've read and recommend all of them.

Each is a jewel of nonfiction literature, stories told by an author who loves science and the wonder it generates. As you'll hear, it was when Deva partnered with the Society to present a dramatic reading from Galileo's daughter that I first met and interviewed her. That was in 2003. She would join me on Planetary Radio many more times. It was just last June that we shared another wonderful conversation with her. That was hours before she received the Society's Cosmos Award at a Washington, D.C. banquet. it. I highly recommend listening to that interview as an introduction to the one you'll hear in moments. We've got the link on the show page at planetary.org slash radio. I spent yet another

wonderful hour with Deva in August. This live online conversation capped our book club's month-long celebration of all her work. And it's the one we're proud to share with you now. It all started, at least my involvement with you, back with Galileo's daughter. Not when the book came out in 20, wait a minute here. 1999. 1999, thank you, which was, what, four years after you published Longitude, which I also have to say something. In fact, I'll say it right now. Longitude, the true story of a lone genius who solved the greatest son.

scientific problem of his time, a winner of the British Book of the Year award, but I did not know until today, you were also awarded, get this, the Harrison Medal from the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers. Congratulations. And that was, I mean, an award named after the central character in the book, right? Yes. Well, it's a rather new award, or was then. Everybody loves the name of the Clockmakers Guild in England. That is how they are known, the worshipful company of Clockmakers. Absolutely wonderful. I was delighted by that book, but I didn't read that until after I read Galileo's daughter. And then you and I met because you consented to prepare that special stage presentation or stage reading of portions of the book, which we,

We presented on stage at the Pasadena Playhouse under the direction of our own Bob Picardo, Robert Picardo, and starring John Rees Davies and Linda Pearl as Galileo and his daughter, Sister Maria Celeste, which was a wonderful evening. And I got to talk to you a few minutes before the performance backstage was delightful and would be followed by many other conversations. This is only the latest in that long line. I remember it will. I assume that you approve that you had a good time that evening. Oh, it was wonderful. Yes, thank you. I want to back up a moment before we start to talk more about some of your work. Here is just a couple of lines from an article that I wrote for the Planetary Society website.

The Planetary Society's board of directors recognized that Davis' writing stands as testament to the power of storytelling. science. She shows us that the universe is explained not just through equations and experiments, but through human stories, making distant historical figures breathe again and allowing us to see science through their eyes and feel their wonder. These gifts made her an ideal recipient of the Cosmos Award. And you are only the sixth recipient. Does that strike home for you that reaching for the human element that is so much a part of all science? Very much so, because it troubles me the way scientists are so often presented in the media, which is as barely more than a robot, and science itself as a collection of facts.

when, as you know, science is an extremely creative enterprise, and scientists are nothing, if not passionate about what they do. Certainly true. In every single scientist, every good scientist that I have talked to, and like you, I've talked to many, let's talk about Galileo's daughter, because as much as I enjoyed Logitude, and it was responsible, as I've told you, for my making a self. trip to Greenwich, the Royal Observatory, while I was there. By the way, did you hear that there is now a brand new astronomer royal? And for the first time, it's a woman. I don't think I did know that. It was just announced. And it happens to be, you know, and of course, I'm terrible at names. I'll have to look it up. It's someone I had on a panel at the Ravinia Festival outside Chicago last year. She's a wonderful choice. And for the first time in all these centuries, it's a woman.

Glory B. And that's a great segue into so much of your work, including Galileo's daughter. Because while it is largely the story of Galileo, who I thought I knew pretty well before I read the book and learned that I did not, it's also the story of his brilliant daughter, who did so much, became so much a part of this story, even though. though she spent all of her time sequestered in that convent that he put her in when she was very young. 13. Along with her sister, right? Right. There is a wonderful surprise at the end of the book having to do with Maria Celeste. I won't give it away because there are people out there, I'm sure, who haven't read the book. But I'll just say, I mean, there is a terrific surprise waiting for you. if you take on Galileo's daughter.

And why wouldn't do it? Was the number one New York Times bestseller and a Pulitzer Prize finalist? As I told you earlier today, one of the revelations in this, because I get caught up in those popular images of scientists sometimes as well, especially ones of long ago, was Galileo's humor, which could be absolutely wicked. And that example that I gave you, which is from very early in the book, he, of course, course, faced a lot of opponents, a lot of supposedly learned men, and I guess they were all men, who disagreed with his findings, even though they hadn't actually done any observations

of their own. You said that learning of the death of one such opponent in December of 1610, Galileo wished aloud that the professor, having ignored the Medician stars during his time on Earth might now encounter them en route to heaven. Very, very good. And would you please explain the Medician stars? Yes, they're the moons of Jupiter. When Galileo made that discovery, he very candidly dedicated them to the young Cosimo de Medici. It was a good ploy because it got him a job at the Medici court. Cosimo himself, I think originally Galileo, wanted to call them the Cosmian stars, but then it got changed to Medici. And we are getting some comments. Thank you, Adrian, for letting us know. It was astronomer Professor Michelle Dowarty, who was the first woman in the over 350-year

history to appointed the UK's Astronomer Royals. So that's great news. Yeah. Michelle, congratulations. I've gone to the chat and please keep this stuff coming, everybody. Becky, thank you to you for providing that as well. Dustin Flam says, I loved Longitude. Is there a story you uncovered during research that didn't make it into the book but still sticks with you? Yes. It was the story, I don't think it's in the book, of LaSalle, who discovered wonderful things in the Americas, but then had to go back to France. When he wanted to return to his discovery, he couldn't find it because he couldn't determine his longitude. And his men followed him around for a very long time. And that expedition came to a

miserable end while we're back on the topic of longitude we should say and please can you give a just a quick thumbnail synopsis of what this was all about this huge challenge what is this is about really people still ask me it's really about the difficulty of determining position at sea once you have lost sight of land and for hundreds of years this was impossible to do because there is nothing in the heavens that hold still to give you a reading the way the North Star, in the Northern Hemisphere at least, will tell you your latitude. Early on, certainly by the 16th century, people understood what you would need in order to be able to tell you your longitude and that would be knowing the time where you were and knowing the time

at a point of known longitude how could you do that well theoretically you could have two timekeepers one would carry the home port time with you and the other you would reset every day by making observations of the sun you could get your noonday reading and then you'd have this comparison which would translate to a geographical distance because the earth is 360 degrees around and it goes around every 24 hours so 15 degrees of longitude for every hour of time but there were no clocks or watches at that time that could keep time well enough for that to work. So the other idea was that you could figure out something going on in the heavens and predict what time that would happen over a place of no longitude, and then make that same

observation wherever you were and note your local time. And then again you have a time difference to compute so in the 18th century both of those methods became feasible and the timekeeper solution was a whole lot easier to work it was just so difficult to build the clocks and that's what Harrison did and John Harrison he developed these the early ones that look like Rube Goldberg devices, hope people get that reference, and eventually ends- They're beautiful. They're gorgeous machines. They are so, to stand in front of them because you can stand right in front of their glass cases at the Royal Observatory, and then eventually end up with something the size of a pocket watch. It's absolutely glorious. And you'd think,

oh, of course, then the king and the entire court was immediately at his feet because he'd accomplish this. Not so much. No. It was, and that's much of the story of the book, it's Harrison's trying to get it. It's one thing to solve the problem and then it's another thing to convince people that you actually have solved it when it isn't the solution that was expected. Wonderful story and you know, great that you were able to bring this name that so few people are familiar with John Harrison to light around the world.

says, I read the planets. It was so beautifully written. I actually did fall in love with the planets all over again. So many lovely passages. The one that jumps out for me is the parched moon pulls at Earth's seas as though jealous of them. I will be reading the rest of Dave's work now. Oh, thank you. I really loved working on that book. That was really great fun for me. The full name of the book is the planets, a discourse on the discovery, science, history, and mythology of the planets in our solar system with a chapter devoted to each of the celestial spheres. By the way, Dave, wait, wait, that isn't the title. No, just to all I know is the planets. It's just, unfortunately, the title was just the planets. It was not my title. My title was

how the planets came to Earth, which is really what the book is about. That's wonderful. Why didn't they use that? I don't know. Editorial judgment. Yeah. I will tell everybody if you have not read the planets, it is a gorgeous book. You do get those beautiful illustrations, which are wonderful. Which are all by Lynette Cook.

And that was another lovely experience working with her. She was really known as a space artist then. She's gone on to do other things now. But that was a joyous collaboration. There are two quotes that you used to open the book. One of them, of course, from our founder. I'll read it. This is from Carl Sagan in the Cosmic Connection, an extraterrestrial perspective.

In all the history of mankind, there will only be one generation that will be first to explore the solar system, one generation for which in childhood the planets are distant and indistinct disks moving through the night sky and for which in old age the planets are places, diverse new worlds in the course of exploration. That still gives me the chills when I hear it. I feel so fortunate to have been part of that generation. I mean, because I remember reading my astronomy books that I would take out of the storefront library in elementary school that said, yeah, who knows who will ever visit the planets, and we'll probably never be able to tell if there are planets going around other stars, and now we know that there are more planets than stars in the galaxy. It's a wonderful time. It has been a wonderful time to be alive. Up until recently, yes.

Yeah, we might talk a little bit about that as well. The other thing that you can find throughout the book, The Planets, is poetry. Wonderful selections. Here is the one that you use to open the book from Diane Ackerman, the planets, a cosmic pastoral. At night, I lie awake in the ruthless unspoken, knowing that planets come to life, bloom, and die away, like daylilies, opening one after another in every nook and cranny of the universe. That's another goose bump one. You bet, yeah.

I'm happy to say Diane's book of Planet Poems has been out of print for a long time, but it is being reissued this, I think this year, if not this year, early next year. You know, that might make it a terrific selection for our clients. for this. Oh, yes. So I've just put a star next to that and we will look in. Highly recommended. Excellent. Thank you. There's a longer passage from the planets that I want to read.

Your words, my voice, but I hope to do it justice. But I have to ask you up front, first of all, do you still have a planet fetish? Well, yeah. Yeah. What can I say? I have various little, I know if you can see how much you can. how much you can see behind me. I brought Galileo along. I have a lot of little planet models.

What was Galileo holding there in his hand? As a telescope. Of course. First to point a spyglass at the sky. Here's the passage that I wanted to read to you. And it's because you do say in the book that you have a planet fetish. Here is the opening of the chapter about the moon. Earth's moon, our own moon.

capital M, that you titled Lunacy. During the glory days of the Apollo project, a young astronomer who analyzed moon rocks at a university laboratory fell in love with my friend Carolyn and risked his job and the national security to give her a quantum of moon dust. Where is it? Let me see, I demanded at this news, but she answered quietly, I ate it. After a pause, she added, there was so little as though that explained everything

I was furious in an instant I had dropped from the giddy height of discovering the moon right there in Carolyn's apartment to realizing

she had eaten it all without leaving a crumb for me in a reverie I saw the moon dust caress Carolyn's lips like a lover's kiss as it entered her mouth

it ignited on contact with her saliva to shoot sparks that lodged in her every cell. Crystalline and alien. It illuminated her body's dark recesses like pixie powder, thrumming the senseless tune of a wind chime through her veins. By its sacred presence, it changed her very nature. Carolyn, the moon goddess. She had mated herself to the moon somehow via this act of incorporation, and that was what made me so jealous. That is a true story. Thank you.

Of course, I assume no less. I read that in part, I mean, first of all, because it's about as sensual a passage as you'll find in any book about astronomy. But in addition... That's a distinction, Matt. Thank you. There you go. There ought to be an award specifically for that. Well, I tell you, one of my favorite reviews, I think it was new scientists, about longitude. So, Ms. Sobel has apparently done the impossible and made horology sexy. I totally agree. Absolutely. But I also read that passage because it's such a good example of

your prose that fills not just this book, but all of your books. Thank you. Let's jump back to this book, Galileo's daughter. It seems to me that a central theme that you address in this book and that Galileo was forced to address whether he wanted to or not. You described at one point as the battle lines that he saw forming between science and scripture.

And I would just maybe expand that to between science and belief or maybe science and dogma. You can modify that as you wish. And you showed that Galileo saw no conflict between these two treasures of humankind. Is that how you feel about it? I think it's possible to have both, as he did. He lived in a universe that was Catholic, and both his daughters were nuns.

That was the big surprise. That was the inspiration for that book, because from what I had learned about Galileo in school, I assumed that he was not a man of faith, but it was much more interesting to discover that he'd actually done everything he did as a believing Catholic. And I'm not Catholic myself, but I found that fascinating. And the plight of his daughter to be a nun at the time he was on trial for heresy. All of those things just seemed yeasty, rich. And then her letters. Her letters are magnificent. So I wanted to be able to present them. That character of Maria Celeste, this brilliant woman, you can only wonder what her potential might have been had she had the opportunity to stay with her father and maybe even following his footsteps because she

was obviously fascinated by his work. And didn't she, she helped, she transcribed some of the work for him, didn't she? Yes. Fascinating. And Emanuances at times. Yeah. And just the first of many, many women whose stories you've documented across the years will come to Marie Curie before we finish this conversation. But I think of the glass universe and those wonderful women who finally now, partly thanks to you, have begun to receive some of the recognition that they earned when they were doing their work in the late 19th and early 20th century. Yeah. There are even a couple of streets in Cambridge that had been named for two of them. Oh, that's great. Back to Galileo's daughter, when the church did its ruling, and it's so interesting in the story

because early in the story, it looks like even the Pope, who's kind of Galileo's buddy, the new Pope, they all think he's brilliant and they like his work. He was brilliant, yeah. Yes. And slowly things turn against him, largely for political reasons. And that when finally the church, the Pope, ruled against the Copernican view of a sun-centered solar system, how it stymied science primarily in Italy. I mean, you talk in the book about how scientists, natural philosophers, as they were known,

in other nations sort of pitied their colleagues in Italy, but their work went on. Well, that was one of Galileo's arguments that if they banned Copernicus, then the Protestants would figure out how the universe worked and the church would be embarrassed. I was going to say with apologies to Barbara Tuckman, Do you maybe detect a distant mirror in this story of a time in which science is such a great title. Do you see relevance for the current day in this time when the powers to be were saying? Oh, but what do I? Yes. Yes. Galileo is still used in trying to make a case for science.

we are 400 years past Galileo, 100 years past the Scopes trial, and where are we? Where are we going with the decimation of funding for science, whole agencies, environmental protection agency? You know the news as well as I do. I can't go there. Sadly true. All right, let's go to a somewhat half. part, something about the book that really, it made me appreciate Isaac Newton even more. Though Galileo anticipated so much of what he would build on, that was pretty clear. I mean, his studies of motion, I mean, even ignoring his study of the sky and what he discovered there, it's absolutely fascinating. Motion, even the concept of relativity, I love that section in the dialogue where he talks about having people on a ship in the cabin and having a fish in a bowl or some insects flying.

And you can't tell whether the ship is moving or standing still, that all of those motions will look the same. And this goes directly to what Einstein credited for his beginning to think about relativity, being in a falling elevator. Exactly. I mean, it sounds like the falling elevator. I thought experiment. Fascinating. Another one that struck me was, you know, Copernicus, who realized that, okay, the planets are moving against the stars which look immobile because they're so far away. But it was Galileo who then I learned from your book said,

You know what? I bet someday we're going to have telescopes powerful enough that we'll be able to do the parallax calculation and figure out how far those stars are. And it happened 200 years later. He was 200 years ahead of himself. I don't remember that he said that. Yes, it's right there.

It's in the book. Okay. I feel. Well, you didn't mention the 200 years, but you did say, of course, it came to pass. There's just one other really striking observation that I have to mention before we move on, because it was a shock to learn, since I haven't read my Aristotle, I'm sorry, I'm embarrassed to say, that Aristotle didn't think that mathematics could be applied to the study of nature,

which just seems so basic a misunderstanding. standing. And the Galileo refuted both through his experiments and through his arguments. And there's this great quote that you have in the book, there will be opened a gateway and a road to a large and excellent science, he predicted, into which minds more piercing than mine shall penetrate to recesses still deeper. Why that? I love that. Yeah. That sense of nobody finished. science. You make your contribution knowing that it's not complete and others will continue it after you. But it's also so difficult to believe that for all of those years, thousands of years, well, a thousand or more years, that there wasn't the connection made. I mean, now, of course, it's like cliche, mathematics, the language of science. do the math right yeah right exactly let's see what's coming in from people before we move on a little bit david says galileo's daughter was my first experience with miss sowbell's work i have read many of

her other works i was fortunate to meet her at a dps division of planetary sciences meeting at which she was doing research for her planet's book so i guess you were at at least one dps meeting oh i was at several i was it enough of them for people to start saying to me are you still working on that book yeah talk about your process you don't turn these out every year oh no it no there's so much work that goes it's slow it's slow yeah there's a lot of research and then there's a lot of thinking about how to frame the story especially with the planets because it's not really a story. The obvious approach would be to treat each planet

perhaps in the same way, how things about it were learned, how it entered historical knowledge, and maybe associate each planet with a particular scientist. But I just, I knew I wanted to write a book, about the planets but that that just bored me i i couldn't see that that would be interesting enough to write or to read because there are already hundreds of books like that so what could i do that would be more engaging and the the thought that helped me was everybody knows the names of the planets even people who are not the least but in

interested in astronomy. Everybody knows the names of the planets. Why? Well, they learn about them in mythology. They learn about them in astrology, science fiction. I bet there are enough of those avenues to have one for each planet and be able to talk about the planet in the language of that viewpoint. But you also brought such romance to these descriptions of these neighboring worlds. As I said, I had a great good time. Yeah. The one chapter I worried about was the Jupiter chapter because it's called astrology. Carl Sagan had already died when I was working on this, but of course one of his crusades was against the demon haunted world and all kinds of any kind of pseudoscientific belief and i thought what would he say to me if i you know because it starts off

really talking in astrology lingo and talking about galileo who had to work as an astrologer at times as did kepler so i i consoled myself that since it was for the purpose of presenting the real science that he would forgive me. I suspect he would. I'm almost convinced. That'd be a good question to ask Andrew in someday, I think. But I'm sure she would agree. Deva Sobel has much more to share with us after the break. Please stay with us. Hi, I'm Danielle Gunn, Chief Communications Officer at the Planetary Society. We're proud to support International Observe the Moon Night, NASA's annual celebration of our nearest neighbor in space.

This event brings together Skywatchers, families, students, and communities worldwide to share in the wonder of the moon. Whether you attend a local gathering, host one yourself, or simply step outside to look up, you'll be part of a global movement to connect with our moon. International Observe the Moon night takes place on and around Saturday, October 4th. It's a global movement. It Explore activities, download custom moon maps, and find events near you at moon.n.nastas.gov slash observe. However you choose to participate, outdoors, online, or from home, you're invited to celebrate the moon with the world. Let me share some more with you from some of our members here in the member community. From Kareem. Carl Sagan, whom I met while the student, was a visionary, devoted family man, his daughter.

daughter, Sasha, has also become a communicator like her parents. In fact, she was my guest on Planetary Radio. We featured your book. In your own experience, writing about Galileo's daughter and exploring family legacies in science, what do you think is the deeper significance of these familial connections? He says, I have to say a major part of my passion for astronomy is due to my late big brothers who studied art, physics, and astronomy, and inspired my passions in those

topics. What a lucky thing to have happened to you. Yeah, I think, I think those things are tremendously important. I probably, well, I definitely was encouraged in my interest in science by my mother, just by her interest. She knew all the constellations. She took me to watch a partial eclipse one morning before school. I think having that kind of of family connection is extremely important. Matt, you mentioned we're going to talk about Madame Curie at some point, but her family story, so she and her husband were scientists together and had two children and their older daughter followed her mother into the lab and also was a Nobel Prize winner. And then the daughter's two children also became scientific.

scientists. So that's a real dynasty. Yeah. And her other daughter accomplished in her own way. Yes, but not a scientist. Yeah. David adds, I'm currently reading Amar Perfect Heaven on a tablet, Amar Perfect Heaven. The correct full title for that one, I think I have this one, Amar Perfect Heaven, How Copernicus Revolutionized the Cosmos. How does one get the chance to see, I guess we could read it, but it's my firm, opinion that plays should be seen more than read. You wrote a play, right? And the son

stood still. Right. So the play was really the impetus for the book. When I first learned about Redicus, the person who visited Copernicus and convinced him to finally publish the book, he'd been writing all his life. I thought it would make a great play. This was back in 1973. And then I think I tried to think about it, but I really didn't know how to write a play. And about 30 years later, I still didn't know how, but I was determined to do it. And then the play became the center of the book because my idea for the play was that it would be a great vehicle for a university theater department. And I was preparing all the supporting documentation so that when the play was done by the theater department, the language departments could be

involved, European history could be involved theological studies. There are many, many aspects to Copernicus' story. And my publisher said, well, you should put all that together and make this a book instead of a play. Give the whole background story up to the time of their meeting. The meeting is historical fact. It's just what transpired in the meeting that no one knows. And then they were together for two years. So that's the play. And then pick up the story from the publication of the book and what happened afterwards. So the play appears in the book, but I knew when the book came out that the play really couldn't stand up on its own feet. It wasn't dynamic enough. But when I was on my book tour, in most cities, a couple of local actors were always willing to come

and read a scene or two from the play. And the theater company in Boulder, Colorado did a fantastic job. And I went back to them and asked if they'd be willing to give me a workshop to try to improve the play. And they got a grant. I think it was the National Endowment for the Humanities Grant. Those were the days. And we had a week-long workshop. And on the first day, the director pointed out to me that the play had an extraneous character, that there was one character who never interacted with Copernicus, and that if I got rid of him, the whole focus would become

clearer. It was such good advice. I never stopped thanking him. So I rewrote the play, and it was published separately, but more importantly, that theater company in Boulder gave a world premiere, and it ran for about a month. That was just so exciting to really see it on stage. That's wonderful. I'd love to have that opportunity someday. I think somewhere I have a DVD of the play. Oh, there's a couple more comments. Michael says, Just notice this read, and I think he's talking about the planets, is approaching its 20th anniversary, which must be about right,

because it was in 2005 that you joined me on Planetary Radio. Actually, it was a show that came out on Halloween, 2005, to talk about the book. That's when the book was published, October of 2005. There you go. That's right. It's the 20th anniversary. Happy anniversary.

Thank you. We've heard from Becky already. She's added, I'm a scientist and a writer, so my passion, is trying to increase communication skills for scientists. What one piece of advice would you give scientists about their writing? Great question. It is a great question. But when scientists write for scientific publications,

they have to meet the expectations of those publications. And it discourages them from presenting their work in a more creative way. and I don't know what to do about that. Some scientists really are able to communicate with a wider public. Certainly Carl Sagan could do that. I have a few others I could name who have that ability, although they may not have the time or the motivation. Sagan used to say that if you receive public funding. You should spend maybe 10% of your time telling the public what you were doing with their money, which is a great idea. I also thought it was really interesting that Alan Alda, who some number of years, hosted a television program, I think it was called Explorations,

in which he presented real scientific content and interviewed scientists, But he set up a program at the State University of New York at Sonnybrook teaching young scientists communication skills based on what actors do when they improvise. And they actually held workshops. And you could see the before and after how these young researchers talked about their work before they had the improvisation class and then afterward. One thing, when I was teaching science writing, I always urge the students to think of an audience of one. Just try to communicate what you're saying or writing about to one other person. And that helps you state it more clearly, especially a particular person, someone you know,

because you would know how to make it interesting to that person, how to shape it to that person's understanding. You have given us a wonderful segue into that comment from Arnold that I said I would get back to. Here it is. In Matt's interview with Deva prior to the 2025 Cosmos Award, the one that was aired on planetary radio, Deva revealed that she wrote Longitude for one person, her mother, to achieve a balance between science, complexity, and emotion. Marie Curie, that book, which we're about to get to, was written to Harry Corbin and Van Samuel, two future feminists. That's in quotes, because that

was your dedication. Was this a mirror image attempt to balance the complexity of femininity with the contributions of science? Arnold says, I've read both. Now, of the glass universe about the ladies of the Harvard Observatory is written to a group, ladies who sustain Deva, that has me wondering as I start to read it, looking for a comment. The dedication is often to the person I'm thinking of, I really did write longitude for my mother. The Madame Curie book, those two young men the book is dedicated to, are my grandchildren, and they're only one and two. So I couldn't really be telling the story. to them. Nevertheless, what I was reaching for there was the sense that Madame Curie had,

which was, you can be a woman and defend women's rights while really having wonderful, loving relationships with men, and not having any misandronous thoughts or feelings. Let's talk about your most recent book. Here it is, The Elements of Marie Curie, How the Glow of Radiom Lit a Path for Women in Science, just published last year. We talk about it in somewhat greater detail than we'll be able to this evening. In that planetary radio conversation, again, you can find it on the website or in your favorite podcast player. But I found this to be just as revealing and fascinating. and exciting a read, as beautiful a read, as the Galileo book.

Even though it wasn't about astronomy. Even though it wasn't about astronomy. But there are astronomical connections. Yes, absolutely. Which I don't really talk about in the book, but it was so interesting to be in a time when there was a periodic table of the elements, but it was incomplete.

Her life had so much to do with filling it in and figuring out the structure of the atom, the source of the elements. Of course, now we know that they come from the stars. Yes, other than hydrogen, which was around, well, even it was not there at the beginning. The stars come from the hydrogen. Exactly. Those of you who've read the book know this to be the case. Those of you who haven't read it, you don't know Marie Curie, Madame Curie. You need to read this book to find out about this absolutely amazing woman. Just as one example that I was not aware of, would you talk about what Marie felt compelled to do for her adopted country, France, during World War I?

Yeah, she knew that X-ray would completely transform the treatment of wounded soldiers. And she also knew that the technology was new enough that it wasn't widespread. And only the largest hospitals had it. Only some doctors knew about it. So she created a mobile X-ray unit. She got someone to give her a car and she outfitted it with the equipment and started driving it around to hospitals. in Paris but what she really wanted to do was take it out to the field hospitals and as

closest to the front as the army would let her go and over the course of the war she personally outfitted 19 vehicles like that and did learn to drive so she didn't need a separate driver would drive them to places it was important to get close to the battlefield because if you had to transport the wounded to a hospital, then it took time and the wounds would get infected and it would be too late. And so it was not only taking the x-rays, but convincing the doctors of how powerful this tool was, and then teaching them how to interpret the x-rays so that they were useful. And as if that weren't enough, she also created a course for French women to become X-ray technicians in a six-week course where she taught electricity, X-ray theory and practice, and human anatomy. And she trained 150 French women during the war to help carry out this kind of work.

And then there were all those other men and women who she brought into her laboratory, made great demands of, but trained and went on, they went on to become some of the leading scientists in their fields. Right. Fascinating. And it's a story of romance. I highly recommend it. I want to thank you. It has been a tremendous pleasure and truly an honor to be able to spend some time with you again. I feel the same way. It's great. Fun to jump to you and share so many interests. And I really appreciate it. I'll be back next month with my wonderful society colleague Kate Howells.

Kate has just published Moons, the Mysteries and Marvels of our Solar System. It's great. And it's our October selection for the Planetary Society Book Club. Want to join the club and participate in our live interactions? Become a member of the Planetary Society. When you do, there's so much more you'll be helping us to create and accomplish. Visit planetary.org slash join to learn more. Planetary Radio is production of the Planetary Society.

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