Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Passback budget breakdown: A 47% cut to NASA science

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

NASA’s science programs are facing the largest proposed budget cut in more than 40 years. This staggering 47%reduction could cancel missions, waste billions in U.S. taxpayer investments, and unravel decades of discovery. In this episode of Planetary Radio, host Sarah Al-Ahmed is joined by Casey Dreier, The Planetary Society’s Chief of Space Policy, and Jack Kiraly, Director of Government Relations. Together, they break down what the “passback” stage of the federal budget process means for NASA, which missions and programs are in jeopardy, and how you can help push back. Later in the show, Chief Scientist Bruce Betts joins us for a reflective What’s Up as we explore the science that could be lost and why it still deserves to be saved. Discover more at: https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/2025-passback-budget-breakdownSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A 47% cut to NASA science isn't just a number. It could be decades of discovery erased. This week on Planetary Radio. I'm Sarah Elahmed of the Planetary Society with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. This week we had planned to share some of the inspiring moments from our 45th anniversary gala, but in light of recent news, we're shifting focus.

We'll bring you those voices of hope and celebration next week. In the United States, the Trump administration's proposed budget for fiscal year 2026 delivers the biggest blow to NASA science in 40 years. If enacted, it would cancel missions, waste billions of US taxpayer dollars, undermine multiple international collaborations, and silence some of our most powerful tools for understanding the cosmos. Today I'm joined by Casey Dreier and Jack Corelli from our space

policy and advocacy team to break down what's at stake and how you can help. This isn't just a crisis for NASA. It's a defining moment for the future of space science and a test of what we are willing to stand up for. Later in the show, we'll reflect on what's at stake with our chief scientist, Bruce Betts, as we talk about some of the missions that may be affected by these proposed cuts

and why the science behind them is worth protecting. And I want to give a special shout out this week to the North Fort Myers Public Library in Florida. That's where our audio editor, Andy, took refuge to finish last week's episode during a prolonged internet outage. Support your public libraries, folks. They're vital, and they're under threat, too. If you love planetary radio and want to stay informed about the latest space discoveries, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcasting platform. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with new and awe-inspiring ways to know the cosmos and our place within it.

On March 12th, we released an episode titled, An Extinction Level Event for NASA Science. It was the first time we shared what our trusted sources were telling us about the proposed cuts to NASA and specifically to the science mission directorate. Their reaction from our fans was immediate. Thousands of our listeners, planetary society members, and space fans wrote the US Congress in the days after. Some were understandably skeptical. A 50% cut to NASA's science seemed unimaginable, but as it turned out, the threat was real. We would never make claims like that without doing our due diligence. As of April 10th, we've entered the pass-back phase of the presidential budget request.

This is when the White House's Office of Management and Budget delivers a nearly final version of the budget to NASA. It's not the final word, but it's close. The Trump administration's passback proposes a nearly 50% cut to the science mission directorate, dropping its budget from $7.5 billion to just $3.9 billion. I want to make clear that the Planetary Society is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. We don't endorse candidates, and we don't take sides. But we are here to defend space science and exploration.

It's why our organization was created. These cuts would cancel missions that are already built, already paid for, already delivering results. They would ground spacecraft, stall decades of research, and threaten humanity's ability to ask the biggest questions about our universe. There's still time for the White House to reconsider, but let's be honest, this is not a good situation. And yet, we are not powerless.

The Planetary Society and space advocates around the world have fought back against budget cuts and mission cancellations before. And we won. We saved Europa Clipper. We saved New Horizons. We saved Neo Surveyor. And we are gonna fight again. Today I'm joined by our Chief of Space Policy Casey Dreier and our Director of Government Relations Jack Corelli to break down what's happening and what you can do right now to help

stop it. about a month ago, that there were some proposed budget cuts for NASA that we saw formulating in the Office of Management and Budget. Now we're in a point in the budget negotiations called pass back and we've seen a little bit more about what might be the the real presidential budget request coming out. So before we kind of pursue this conversation more deeply, I wanted to ask you guys what is pass back and where are we in this budget process right now? Pass Back is kind of like the last station before the train completely leaves town on the budget process. So it's where the Office of Management and Budget, this is the White House's accounting office, this is the thing that both controls the flow of

of next year's NASA budget to the agency and says, okay, here's what we're going to put together for you. You have one final say on what this is going to look like, but here's basically our intent. This is what we want to release. So this is very late in the budget formulation process when it comes to a request to Congress. And normally when an agency gets a pass back, they have a couple of days to push back and maybe they can tweak a handful of things. It's their last chance to really scream about something bad that they don't like. Or they could appeal to the president directly, but it's kind of that last check-in point.

exactly in line with what had been reported a month ago. And so the budget we feared. The outcome of this again, we're still in the proposal. It could still change, but a 40% cut at the pass backstage to try to undo that by the time it gets to actual request. That is a, I mean, I would love that. And I hope that that happens. I hope cooler heads prevail, but that is a, I mean, I would love that. And I hope that that happens. I hope cooler heads prevail, but that is a dramatic change that is relatively unprecedented

in terms of how this process works. And so this is why we're so concerned. And that 50% is coming specifically out of the science mission directorate, right? But how does NASA fare overall in this budget? Our understanding is NASA would be cut by 20%. So that's about $5 billion. The majority of that $5 billion is found by cutting science by 50 percent roughly, which saves about $3.4 billion.

That means there's still $1.6 billion unaccounted for in terms of public reporting. That must be distributed somewhere else throughout the agency, likely somewhere on the Artemis is unaccounted for in terms of public reporting. That must be distributed somewhere else throughout the agency. Likely somewhere on the Artemis side, but hard to say. There's nothing else that big. $1.6 billion is more than the entire Aeronautics Division at NASA and larger than the entire Space Technology Mission Directorate at NASA. Maybe some of that is anticipated to be saved by the level of reductions in force that they're putting together in terms of costs of employment But we just don't know in terms of public reporting yet. So it's the vast majority though in terms of what we've seen

Again falls on science to carry this burden, which I think is you might not be too surprised to think that I think that's a really poor management decision. I mean, there's so much that's going to impact. But before we kind of split that out into the missions, how does that impact the different divisions in the science mission directorate? It doesn't affect each division. Not every division within NASA SMD is hit exactly the same. And so as in the first Trump administration, Earth science takes a pretty considerable hit in this budget request or this version of the budget request. But notably in the public reporting that we've seen is astrophysics takes a huge hit, something close to 60 or 70% of their budget. 68%.

68% of their budget. That's huge. And that's, I mean, these are the folks that brought us the James Webb Space Telescope, the Hubble Space Telescope, Chandra X-ray Observatory, and are currently building. And I saw literally a month ago in the clean room at Goddard, the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, which is the next major flagship mission of theirs that is quite literally close to launch in just under two years. They're doing the final testing on it.

They also just recently launched the Spherex mission, which in addition to doing a sky survey is also going to be very capable in finding near-Earth objects sort of as a secondary objective. Then, of course, Planetary Science Division gets a 30% cut. So, of all the divisions, Planetary Science seems to fare pretty well, but that's still a 30% cut, right? We saw what happened with just the small cuts that we saw, relatively small cuts, half a billion dollars in the last two fiscal years. That's hundreds, if not thousands of jobs across the country, indefinite delays and maybe even cancellations of some of our favorite missions. And this is a division which we're talking in terms of billions here, but even just that $5 billion off the top of the NASA budget,

20% of its budget, most of it coming out of science is detrimental to the program. And so whether you care about astrophysics or heliophysics, the science of the sun, this is a potentially cataclysmic event for all of NASA science. I was shocked by the astrophysics, frankly. I expected earth science to take it in the chin because obviously of the issues with the polarization that's formed around climate and climate change and monitoring. But I did not expect astrophysics to fare so poorly. I mean in this budget proposal astrophysics would go from functionally 1.5 to 1.5

billion to 500 million. And they say you can keep running James Webb and Hubble Space Telescope, which if you do the math, that's basically half of that number. And then you're left with 250 million to run, you can't run and basically many other telescopes. There's the huge amounts of scientific research that astrophysics supports through grants, not to mention building the future space telescope. So Nancy Grace Roman is almost built, as Jack said, good project management.

and dark energy detecting machine. And to cancel it at this stage is just, not only is it a waste of roughly $4 billion of taxpayer money that we've spent on this so far, but the lesson is to what not be on budget or schedule, in that sense. and teachers and researchers that do the science return from this data would be felt if this happens as proposed, it would fundamentally alter the United States' relationship to space science, and it would fundamentally present a far smaller vestigial version of itself than we're used to seeing in our lifetimes.

We knew this might be a possibility, but it makes my experience at the day of action just a few weeks ago feel like a million years ago. I was literally in representative Ivy's office from Maryland picking up a Nancy Grace Roman pin not just a few weeks ago. And now we're in a space where potentially it's not even going to happen. That kind of cut to astrophysics as someone who comes from the astrophysics world would be absolutely devastating to everyone that does research and all the students. But you know, we're talking about massive cuts all across the board. How does

this impact planetary science missions specifically? What we know right now is very little. Now, what has been reported publicly has primarily been leaks. A lot of it has been pertaining to like just top line numbers. But sort of looking at what the Planetary Science Division has in operation right now, right? There's a number of missions in what is called extended operations. These are missions that have completed their prime mission, but are still healthy, viable spacecraft with working instruments at destinations throughout the solar system. It's a few million dollars, generally operating costs, staff time, to support these missions continuing to provide gigabits, terabits of data about places all across our solar system. This is the Mars rovers, right?

This is Curiosity, which I believe is in its second extended operation. The Juno mission is in, I think, extended mission two or three. New Horizons, which flew by Pluto, is still doing planetary science in sort of the Kuiper belt. Missions all across the solar system are still in extended operations. Plus, we have these missions in development Veritas and Da Vinci going to Venus the dragonfly mission the nuclear powered octocopter Which just entered phase C

Confirmation it was confirmed as a mission just a little over a year and a half ago And then you have a number of missions in sort of the smaller category of the whole clips program, right? Which that also exists within the Planetary Science Division. And so has, you know, this there's this added pressure that this these budget cuts could create and operative word could because we haven't seen the finer details on the emerging commercial space sector, right, which need a strong NASA to be their anchor customer in this emerging Cislunar ecosystem. And so all across the board, these could be disastrous cuts, not to mention the research,

right? The number of grants that the Planetary Science Division funds, it's approximately 10% of each of the divisions goes towards research grants. And that funds graduate students, that funds research papers that funds, people literally on the cutting edge of science, making these discoveries that we tout every day that we are excited about that make headlines that some old data set or some new data set that comes down from a spacecraft across the solar system

revolutionizes our understanding of the history of water on Mars. How could that be potentially relevant sometime in the near future? These are things that are already in place, that have already been committed to by the US government, that billions have been spent, billions and billions have been spent on getting these objects and assets across the solar system and to the launch pad. Then to pull the rug out from under them at this critical moment would be,

Casey, you called it the dark ages for planetary science, for space science. It would be, and it would be, I think I said grotesque, maybe in my more personal moments. I mean, I have my, there's my personal, it's a revulsion to the idea. And in terms of the waste, I have my, there's my personal, it's a revulsion to the idea. And in terms of the waste, but also the, to me, the implication of symbolically, basically closing our eyes to the cosmos.

The space telescope ones, I guess you could not get a more apt metaphor, right? Those are literally our eyes back out to the universe. And to wholesale decimate the capabilities we've built up to look is not just, I think, a loss for science, but a loss for society to say we are a society that willingly shuts our eyes and refuses to see these things, that would turn inward and down into ourselves rather than up and out.

And that's not the kind of society that I think we live in honestly, and not the society we want to live in. So these science missions, I think have a symbolic value by what they say about us that we're willing to do it, that we challenge ourselves to do it, that we challenge ourselves to pursue these things, that we seek and have the tenacity to make them work, and then we integrate data and discoveries.

We have no idea, these breakthrough discoveries about the cosmos in which we reside, we face that without fear and say, we're going to understand what this all means and integrate about the cosmos in which we reside, from Ars Technica, first broke the story and then we saw other reporting from Washington Post and a few other outlets. They do specifically call out Mars sample return as being canceled in this concept, as well as the Da Vinci mission to Venus. So, I mean, obviously we've talked a lot about Mars sample return over the years. These are all minor, minor bits of the overall amount of federal spending

that we're talking about here that round to zero in the course of how much money the US government spends every year. But again, these are not replaceable. And I keep telling people that there's no private option for these missions. There's no replacement willing, private company or organization or even billionaire willing to just single-handedly pay from our sample return. Once these are gone, or a replacement willing, you have to cut to the bone, you will have to cut missions that are flying, that are returning data, because there will be no other option. And so, you know, these are reasonable outcomes to worry about and exactly which mission would get cut or cut back or completely turned off and left to tumble into the void. We don't again fully know, but some would have to be.

In fact, quite a few would have to be. And that's math, right? So that's where we are, is that we're looking at the math and the math is very bad should this go forward. There's so much there we would lose that it's almost unfathomable. And I'm in this place where I have to have some kind of hope that we can potentially turn this around because the consequences would be so absolutely devastating

that I'm kind of incapable of grappling with it. It's not just about the discoveries we make, it's about the human lives that are going to be changed by this. There are so many people who will have to leave space science entirely, or go to another country in order to seek opportunities, or just on the side of the students and the children, think about how many people won't go into this field at all because the opportunities were stolen from them. It could take us decades conceivably to build this back up if this comes to fruition.

Yeah, I mean, if you have to turn off Voyager, right, which is it's a heliophysics mission. Heliophysics gets cut by in this budget proposal, I think something like 55%. Voyager costs seven million a year to run, but you know, every million will count in that situation. Do you turn off Voyager? Even if you built a new Voyager, you wouldn't get to where Voyager is now for 50 years. in that situation. overnight. This is climate-related but also super practical stuff in terms of water levels, moisture, just seeing where there's carbon dioxide blooms and things that identify potential issues around the planet.

And these long-term time series data sets are literally priceless. It's how you interpret changing climates and changing, not even climate level, but just weather and other types of patterns, because you have context to measure it against. And a lot of these missions, I think the other thing I always like to emphasize, even Earth science maybe has the most potential for having additional data come from commercial partners, but the types of instrumentation that NASA makes for its science missions, exquisitely designed, intensely sensitive, and the key here is calibrated.

All of these missions have instrumentation. Maybe, Sarah, in happier times, we can talk, or you can have a guest to talk about strange, you know, off the physical world, as any engineer would tell you, it's much more irritating to work in the ideal physical plane of idealized spheres and infinite planes of Physics 101. And so you have to account for this. And if you don't account for it, you can't fully know if the data you're collecting is accurate. And so these exquisitely calibrated instruments allow us to be confident over time that we are measuring the same things in the same ways.

Commercial sensors can provide a lot of helpful additional data, particularly with Earth, where they tend to be. But they are very different standards because their customer base is completely different and their needs are very different. And the calibration pipelines and structures they use can be public or private or it might be one of the competitive advantages so they don't share it. You just kind of have to trust them a lot more. It's a completely different situation to work in. And that's the type of thing that happens when you turn off these NASA science missions that are public and open, their data, share their calibration, and everyone can validate it, everyone can check it, and everyone can use it. It's easy to talk about how bad it is in a way because it's so bad.

Or maybe it's hard to talk about how bad it is because it's so bad. It is hard to process. And I think we had inklings that this could happen. And I feel a lot of people maybe couldn't process that this was really real because it's so obviously bad and may still be processing it right now. Yeah. I mean, it was when we went out with our statement was a month ago, right? When the rumors of this cut first reared their ugly head over at ours, Technica. And the response we got was obviously, I think for a lot of people, it was fulfilling to see an organization taking a stand against deep cuts.

This is truly an existential threat to the earth and space sciences. But there was, I think, as there probably should be, some healthy skepticism, but almost a denialism at times of, well, there's no way this could possibly be the priorities of the administration. There are a lot of pointing to Elon Musk as being a senior advisor to the president. No way they would take an axe to NASA. But I think this goes to show that with this current climate that we're in, we have to be vigilant to things like this, because this came to pass. And I think in large part because the priorities of the administration are being ironed out as we're seeing them.

And this is a situation where we need everyone on board. We need Republicans, Democrats, independents, people all across the country, all across the world to speak out against what these cuts mean. Not just to that, the immediate, the jobs, which I will say just on that, Bureau of Economic Analysis actually just put out their most recent data set on the space economy. NASA funding and specifically, or I guess more broadly, government funding is what's driving a lot of the growth in the space economy because it is that anchor customer, whether it is

NASA, which we obviously are focusing on here, or the Department of Energy, NOAA, Department of Defense. The government is an anchor customer for a lot of these emerging industries. And we see a lot of this growth. I go on social media every day, probably too much, and see the excitement that people have around commercial space. None of that would exist. Backed up by data. None of that would exist without a good full faith partner in the US government.

So what can we do about this? You can write your member of Congress, I think, first and foremost, because at the end of the day, Congress is ultimately in charge of the purse strings, right? Constitution lays it out pretty clearly. Congress is in charge of the appropriations process. And as much as we can focus on what's bad, right? And sometimes it's hard to wrap our head around how bad it can be. I feel like every time I talk about this or think about this,

there's a new layer or perspective, right? But at the end of the day, the administration puts out their budget request every year. This happens all the time. This is how the process works. Sometime in the early part of the year, administration puts out the proposal, laying out their priorities, exemplifying sort of this is the direction we want to take the agency and all other aspects of government. It is then up to the

Congress, all 535 members, to iron out the differences between last year's budget, which currently we're operating under a continuing resolution, so two years ago's budget, and developing a plan forward that takes the input from the administration, certainly, but also weighs that against what their personal parochial geopolitical concerns might be, and developing that budget that is for the benefit of the country. And so that is where you come in, because your member of Congress needs to hear you, from you, the listener, I'm talking to you, needs to hear from people all over the country about why this is important. And Planetary Society actually has a letter that we're supporting that asks Congress to not cut, but to revert the NASA

science budget back to an inflation adjusted peak. Currently circulating that letter, it's available on our website, asking members to join. We have more than a dozen have joined right now. This was the very similar letter to what we led last year, had 44 members join then, we're hoping for 45 or more this year. This is that opportunity because this pass back is but the beginning of a larger public conversation. As Casey said, this is the sort of last conversation that happens behind closed doors before this, you know, the train leaves the station. But this is the beginning of the public conversation.

And so you need to have a seat at the table. We'll be right back with the Planetary Society's Space Policy Team after this short break. Greetings, Bill Nye here. The U.S. Congress approves NASA's annual budget. And with your support, we promote missions to space by keeping every member of Congress and their staff informed about the benefits of a robust space program. We want Congress to know that space exploration ensures our nation's goals in workforce technology, international relations, and space science. Unfortunately, important missions are being delayed, some indefinitely. That's where you come in. Join our mission as a space advocate by making a gift today.

Right now when you donate, your gift will be matched up to $75,000 thanks to a generous Planetary Society member. With your support, we can make sure every representative and senator in DC understands why NASA is a critical part of US national policy. With the challenges NASA is facing, we need to make this investment today. So make your gift at planetary.org slash take action. Thank you. Well, something I noticed when we were at the Day of Action was that every legislator we spoke with, at least in the groups that I was in, seemed to be on our side with this.

They understand how deeply embedded this kind of work is in the economies of their states. And therefore, whether it was personal interest in space or some perceived kind of space race that's going on or these economic reasons. I didn't hear from a single person that was against this idea of investing in NASA. But I did hear many people say that, we're already on your side. We need you to speak to the administration

and the executive branch so that they can make sure we get a budget that we can work with. What do you think they're going to say in this instance now that we've gotten this pass back back? Do you think that they're going to push back against it in a meaningful way? And is that the most effective use of our voices to speak to our legislators in this moment?

I think that we still need to remember at this point that we're recording this, we still do not have the official budget request. And so depending on the member of the specific member of Congress, some will say, look, we need to wait and to see the actual official requests. Maybe they'll negotiate. This could be changed. This could just be playing hardball, which all could be true.

I'd rather not be this late in the game doing that, but it all could be true. The cuts could be less, I would still imagine some strong degree of cuts would be present either way given this point, but regardless. So until a budget has been provided to Congress, Congress basically waits for this because this is all impacting the fiscal year 2026, which begins on October 1st of 2025 this year, the start of the fiscal year. You have seen a number of members of Congress speak out aggressively against this based on the reporting. So it's kind of like, how seriously do you take this reporting? from Chris Van Hollen, Senator of Maryland, he's the ranking member on Senate appropriations,

a very important role for funding NASA. So that's a good sign. I think making sure that this is on their radar and realizing that it's important to them is going to be really important. So it's worth telling them this now to say, look, weird, this is maybe happening. If there's enough pushback and enough public and non-public, you know, a lot of, given the dynamics of the current political system, a lot of Republicans won't be making public statements, but it's very possible they can be making private internal communications to the White House about this. We'll take either, you know, it's whatever works.

And so the more we can push back now and drive up saying that this is not going to be an easy political thing to do. In fact, it would be a pointless, it's a frustrating and pointlessly combative one. This is not your highest priority right now, is to cut NASA space science. It is possible they could pull back. Now we just won't know until that budget comes out. The other thing I think that's important is to be prepared to start, particularly for those in the scientific community, about what these implications could be. And something that I've been telling a lot of scientists and those who are dependent in the sense on having missions and grants or students who need this to that are paying for their graduate work.

This is a time to really start reaching out to your community and reminding them that a local community is benefiting from these actions and funding as well. and reminding them that a local community is benefiting from these actions and funding as well. So, you know, most people who say, oh, a space telescope or something out, you know, Voyager in the outer solar system, you know, great, that's too bad, but, you know, what does that mean for me? Well, they might not realize that maybe

there's a graduate student group or people in a research lab paid by those missions that work down the street from them, that maybe there's a scientist who's studying the outcome of that, or that there was a company, a local small business who was providing various components to the Roman space telescope.

By talking about those and laying the groundwork and through local op-eds groundwork and you know through local op-eds through if you have like local podcasts or even on TikTok or whatever ways that you engage with your local community, putting your hand out there and say, hey, we exist here around you. This is your issue too. I think it's really important to lay the groundwork for ongoing political pushback to this. So, you know, there's two ways to really be doing this. Ideally, you do both in parallel.

But I tell people, do what works best for you and your emotional and out, you know, if you're an extrovert or not or whatever works best for you, do something. And that can be as easy as, you know, signing this congressional letter from the Planetary Society, could be even being a member of the Planetary Society and giving us the resources to do more work on behalf of this issue. There's a number of ways to help. So it's, it's not set in stone. It's not over by a long shot, but it's definitely not the position you want to be in at this point. And I think we just need to be really clear-eyed about that. Yeah, we've seen our members over the years accomplish amazing things, but it takes a lot of voices.

In the case of Europa Clipper, it took hundreds of thousands of letters, and that was for one mission. We really need every person to get on board with this if we're going to try to save NASA science. Maybe this is the moment that begins an epic journey and in a few years we look back on this, and we all remember that this is the moment that we rallied together to save NASA science. But alternatively, this could be the death knell of so much that we love if people don't

help with this. So I'm truly hoping that we see the same kind of rallying to the cause that we've seen in the past, because it's been very effective when we've all spoken together on these issues. Right, it's, and look, it's easy to be hyperbolic to get attention in any situation. I think when cuts are bad,

20% cuts to planetary science back 10 years ago, that was bad and it was bad. It's hard to be over hyperbolic about the consequences 50% cuts to planetary science back 10 years ago, Because you're right, the consequences of this gets implemented are generational. We would have a profoundly different NASA on the other side of this than we have now. And it's not the NASA that I want. And it's not the NASA that the founders of the planetary society envisioned and were fighting for. Right? This is going back. And you know, budgets can go up and down, but we've never looked at a 70% cut to an entire science division before in NASA history. That just has never happened.

Cutting any activity by 70% in a year will not make that activity more efficient. The degree and intensity of that, that is a wasteful act. So even if you are sympathetic with less government spending, if you are sympathetic ideologically That is a wasteful act. This is more of a destructive action based on how swift and extensive this is. And it does not give time to have ways to ramp down spending and to allow transitions to occur. It does not have time for management to adapt to it, and it doesn't have time for the basic professional relationships and groups and societies to adapt to it either. So even if you are ideologically disposed to support the outcome intent,

the way that it's being implemented is anything but and will, again, necessarily be a wasteful act of taxpayer dollars a disastrous and inefficient use of both time and capability. Just to make that point finer is talking in terms of maybe a military strategy. If you feel that you, your government is overextended, that your front line is too far apart and you need to have a sort a strategic retreat, by all means. That is the outcome of elections and the outcome of the policy process.

But what we're seeing here is anything but strategic and anything is a wholesale surrender of the future of space science, earth science, space exploration, discovery, innovation, and inspiration for future generations to others who are only ramping up their efforts. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention looking at just the future missions chart that I keep tabs on. Other nations, particularly China, are laying out roadmaps for a very ambitious next two decades. That includes a Mars sample return program.

That includes missions to Venus and to Jupiter and out to the ice giants. Those things were in our roadmap called the Decadal Survey and looking at the space telescopes, right? Looking for Earth 2.0, looking for habitable worlds beyond our own and developing the technologies that invariably have benefits on our day-to-day life, on the precision of manufacturing, on the capabilities of sensing chips. Doing these things have just tremendous benefit for societies. That's why countries like China and India and Japan

and the European Space Agency are all redoubling their efforts to invest in space science. Because for what you're able to do, for on the budget that you're able to do it, you get so much economic benefit, technological innovation, inspiration for future generations, and you're a world player, right? You're on the global stage leading the world in these cutting edge

scientific disciplines that I can guarantee you most world leaders don't understand what their space agencies are doing on a scientific level, but they are more than happy to trot those discoveries out at a moment's notice because it exemplifies the best of society, right, what we are capable of doing through our space program. This pass back, this version, the numbers that we've seen, the very few details that have come out amounts to a just rejection of that whole notion and a surrender of the future of space. It's actually part of why I'm so surprised by it.

The Trump administration in its first time in office was actually quite good for space science. They invented the Artemis program. They invested in a lot of that. And we're even seeing in the messaging from the executive branch that they want to send people to Mars and do all of these things. So it seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot

with their own priorities that they're touting very publicly. Yeah, the first administration is when we peaked NASA science funding in 2020. And I believe that this is a function I think we mentioned Elon Musk earlier. This is not a Doge or an Elon Musk related issue. And I think that's maybe important to mention here too. From everything we can put together which admittedly is not the most transparent situation right now but everything we can put together this is coming very much from the director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russ Vogt, who previously in his he was very briefly the director of OMB at the

end of the last Trump administration. And during that interim period and during the Biden administration, he in his own capacity would release these alternative budgets for the United States. And he himself identified cutting NASA science by 50%. So to me, that suggests that this is more of an issue of the director of the OMB who is probably operating somewhat on their own.

And it's not clear to what degree this has full blessing from the White House versus just kind of, you know, go off and cut things. But it's yeah, it's inconsistent with the Trump administration's own stated goals in terms of leadership and space, but also inconsistent with the first Trump administration's own stated goals in terms of leadership and space, but also inconsistent with the first Trump administration's actual decisions and commitments. So I think that's perhaps an opportunity that maybe this could be revised given that

with more attention on the matter, but it really to me traces back to the director of the Office of Management and Budget more than anything else. And it's, I mean, it's, I will say, this is also something that does happen in government, this sort of siloing of different responsibilities. But I think this generates an opportunity, right, for input from the Congress to the administration, for regular people, like you, the listener, to write your representatives

and tell them that this is something that matters to you. Because if they don't hear from you, they don't know that it's important to you. And you don't need to say that whether you voted for that person or not, this is I think fundamental to a representative democracy, is the ability to communicate, this is what makes the US system so unique.

The ability for you as an average person to communicate with your elected leaders. And so we've made it easy. Planetary.org slash action. You can write that letter today. And for those in the scientific community, highly encourage you to do this. Build that relationship with your local member

of Congress or senators. If you're an enthusiast like me, it's a great opportunity to share encourage you to do this. Build that relationship with your local member of Congress or senators. If you're an enthusiast like me, it's a great opportunity to share what makes this so empowering and exciting for you. Because space transcends all the geopolitical, economic, demographic barriers that come up through the course of regular life that have become so prominent right now. Space truly is something that brings people together. It brings Republicans, Democrats, of all the various stripes of ideology

within each of those two parties to the same table, to be excited about the future and the future of science and technology and inspiration and global leadership. And so making that case for why it's important to you could be the thing that gets your member of Congress or your Senator over the line, right? And say, I've heard from enough people that this is important.

Maybe I need to take a stand on this. Maybe I do need to sign that letter being led by the caucus co-chairs. Maybe I do need to join the Planetary Science Caucus. These are all opportunities that this situation presents us. Not to make light of what is a very dire situation that has left me sort of, I think, reeling from the gravity of it. But chapters of books will be written about this moment.

Be part of that story. Write your member today. Well, it's a difficult time. But this is the moment that our organization was literally created for. The Planetary Society was formed in a time when planetary science was essentially dead and we hadn't seen any missions on the horizon. This is exactly why Carl Sagan, Bruce Murray and Lou Friedman wanted this society to exist. So whether or not we as a group succeed in trying to roll back these cuts entirely,

we have a good chance because we have this grassroots foundation already built for us. We have people all around the world that believe that this kind of science is important. So if there was ever a moment for everyone to come together, it would be right now. We're not going to give up on this no matter what. This is our defining issue at the Planetary So if there was ever a moment for everyone to come together, it would be right now. We're not going to give up on this no matter what. This is our defining issue at the Planetary Society. This is a marathon for us. This could be a long road, but a lot can come back.

And we've come back from a lot before. And so sticking with it and keeping focused on it, thinking again, why we do this, what makes this an ennobling activity, one of the unique and most precious activities I think that we do as a society, it's worth fighting for. And we intend to do that. Well, let's go fight that good fight everyone. Thanks so much, Jack and Casey. Thanks, Sarah. Anytime. If you're feeling fired up right now, and I hope you are, remember, taking action is

really easy. If you're a resident of the United States, our action center at planetary.org slash action makes it simple to make your voice heard. Whether you're a seasoned advocate or this is your first time getting involved, we've got everything you need to make an impact in just a few clicks. You'll find links to all of those resources, including direct contact tools for your representatives, on the webpage for this episode of Planetary Radio at planetary.org slash radio. If you're listening from outside of the United States, you may not be able to call Congress,

but that doesn't mean you're powerless either. You can still play a vital role in protecting NASA's space science. Start by spreading the word. Share this episode. Share the Planetary Society's posts and help others understand what's at stake, not just for the United States, but for global exploration and collaboration. Post your support on social media using hashtags like Save NASA Science and hashtag Fund Space and tag at Planetary Society to join the larger movement. You can also

help by supporting your own country's space science programs. Most of NASA's missions are international collaborations, and strong global partnerships are more important now than ever. And finally, consider becoming a member of the Planetary Society. We are a global community, and your support helps us advocate for space science, education, and exploration around the world. To the scientists and engineers who are watching this moment unfold, please know this. You are not alone.

We see you. We believe in you. And we will fight alongside you to protect the work you've devoted your lives to. We will keep telling your stories and keep fighting for science and discovery because it matters. Now, our chief scientist, Dr. Bruce Betts, joins me for What's Up with a look at some of the missions that could be on the chopping block under this proposed budget. Hey, Bruce. Hey, Bruce. Hey, Sarah.

Man, a bit of a dour show this week. I was really hoping that we got to share the Cosmic Shores Gala instead, but we'll get to that next week. Yeah, important though. Important, as was the Cosmic Shores Gala, but different scales. Different scales for sure. We'll get to the hope and the legacy of our organization next week, but right now we have an emergency on our hands, really.

But we spoke a bit in the conversation with Jack and Casey about some of the things that could potentially be facing giant cuts or cancellations under this proposed pass back budget. And just to put it in context, I wanted to talk a little bit about some of those missions that are currently in their extended phase or some of the missions that we hope to launch in the future that might not happen if these budget cuts go through. And starting out with the missions that are in an extended phase, what missions do you think might be canceled,

you know, based on what we know, and what do you think we would lose if those missions got cut, particularly Juno and Voyager? Yeah, so Juno is one, it takes so long and so many years to get an active working spacecraft at a giant planet that the mere fact that we have one that's doing great there, I would argue is point first. But you've got this mission that's giving us information, particularly it was designed primarily to study deep atmosphere. So not deep in Jupiter,

but deep compared to the upper areas that we see using microwave studies, but they're also doing careful gravitational studies that are really telling us about the deep, deep Jupiter. And so this is not only significant for us learning about Jupiter, but because Jupiter, our solar system is kind of the laboratory we have nearby, so to speak, for exoplanet systems. And Jupiter is a giant planet and a classic example of a big giant planet. So learning about that tells us about the origin of the whole solar system ties to exoplanet systems, et cetera.

They're also incorporating more and more studies of the big moons of Jupiter, which are worlds in and of themselves, and they'll get new friends in a few years. Well, theoretically, well, Europa Clippers on its way, so that should be good, right? Hangers crossed. We don't actually, it better be,

after all that fighting to get that out there, I'd be devastated. And JUSA's ESA mission, So anyway, they're doing great work. Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 are of course the most famous robotic spacecraft ever that have done more over a longer period of time. They launched in 1977. They're still working. They are two most distant spacecraft and they are really far out there. They're into interstellar space, so they're able to study particles and fields,

and just any information about that area outside the magnetic field bubble of the sun tells us something, and they're the only two that are out there. New Horizons will get there eventually. Pioneers are headed there, but we've lost contact with them. So they're teaching us about something that you won't get for a really

long time any other way. And you can't observe a lot of these phenomena except by being there. You can't use a telescope to do it. And so it'd be a shame to say the least. I mean, I believe you've used the term cultural symbol of our reach as a species, which I thought was a romantic and nice way to phrase that. There's other stuff. I mean, Mars sample return, that would be a glorious thing to do in the future. That's heavily, heavily threatened. It is challenging, but we've got a bunch of samples that have been selected by scientists from Perseverance, carefully selected and left there sitting there waiting for us or aliens to pick it up. I don't think it'll be aliens, just spoiler

alert. And farther out, we've got the Habitable Worlds Observatory, which would be a great flagship mission of the future with a telescope design that would be designed to actually image at some level, image exoplanets around a hundred or more stars where we see ones particularly of interest that are Earth-like or at least Earth-sized and are somewhere near a habitable zone where they might have liquid water and they might have life. So that would be a huge jump forward for us and

to lose that development, which is the number one choice of the astrophysics decadal survey development, which is the number one choice of the astrophysics decadal survey for the future would, well, it would stink. It would stink, Sarah. It really would. There's so many beautiful things that we want to accomplish in the future and we're on track to accomplish so many of them and they take decades of buildup. I mean, how long have we been building toward things like Mars sample return? Yeah. And a workforce, a very talented technical workforce that you can't do this if suddenly

a lot of them disappear and partnerships with all sorts of space agencies, but notably ESA and JAXA. And we basically said, Hey, we're doing this and you're doing that and we're partnering together and frankly, we flaked on ESA before and I would just hate to see it happen again. Really though. But it's all right. We're going to do our best. We're going to go out there and we're going to write letters to Congress. It's going to happen. And hopefully we can turn some of this around.

That's one of the reasons we're here is doing the planetary side thing. We do the fun reporting and the science and technology projects, but now we're the advocacy side the mobilizing the grassroots support for space exploration is super important. Yeah. Are you ready to move on to the traditional part of the show? support for space exploration is super important. Yeah. Are we ready to move on to the traditional part of the show? I've tried to make it a little bit different and cold, you know, and entertaining a little bit.

Don't get too excited because we're going on to random space. Yeah. I did some calculations and looked some things up and I had this theory that and I was so pleased that came true and I am actually going to borrow the random space fact I use for the Planetary Reporter, I remember magazine coming out, but I'm going to add to it for the Planetary Radio audience. So the amount of time it takes sunlight to come get from the sun to earth

is about the same length as the song A Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin. In case you're ever wondering, just imagine that. Okay, now the amount of time it takes sunlight to get from the sun to Jupiter is about the same as all the songs on the album, a stairway to heaven was on Led Zeppelin for that's great context. Honestly. Well, for people who listen to Led Zeppelin for everyone else, I'm sorry. Classic. Next time I'm listening

to Led Zeppelin, I'm going to be thinking about this. Well, yeah, because it actually it's like, wow, that's a, I don't know, it gives you and it's funny and weird, but it gives you some intuitive is probably the wrong word, but something like an intuitive feel. If you've listened to these songs or, or a lot of the weird stuff I do, it's partly because these distances, these concepts are so odd that we're seeing the sun as it happened one stairway to heaven ago. I genuinely love that. That's amazing.

All right. Best wishes to everyone. Go out there, look up the night sky and think about continued exploration of the night sky. Thank you and good night. We've reached the end of this week's episode of Planetary Radio, but we'll be back next week with something a little different and a lot more joyful. Join us as we celebrate 45 years of the Planetary Society with highlights from our recent Cosmic Shores Gala. If you love the show, you can get Planetary Radio t-shirts at planetary.org.slash.shop

along with lots of other cool spacey merchandise. Help others discover the passion, beauty, and joy of space science and exploration by leaving a review or rating on platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback not only brightens our day, but helps other curious minds find their place in space through Planetary Radio. You can also send us your space thoughts, questions, and poetry at our email, at planetaryradio at planetary.org. Or if you're a Planetary Society member, leave a comment in the Planetary Radio space in our member community app. Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California and is made possible by our members, space fans who believe in

the power of exploration to unite and inspire. If you believe in that too, join us at planetary.org slash join and help launch the next wave of discovery. Mark Hilverda and Ray Pauletta are our associate producers. Andrew Lucas is our audio editor. Josh Doyle composed our theme, which is arranged and performed by Peter Schlosser. And until next week, never give up, never surrender, and add Astra. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa