Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - The human stories behind the science: Dava Sobel receives the Cosmos Award

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Few writers have captured the wonder of science through storytelling as powerfully as Dava Sobel. In this episode, we celebrate her remarkable career and her recent honor as the recipient of The Planetary Society’s 2025 Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science. Mat Kaplan, senior communications advisor at The Planetary Society, sits down with Sobel for a conversation about the human lives behind great scientific discoveries, from Galileo and Copernicus to the women of the Harvard Observatory and Marie Curie’s lab.  Later in the show, Jack Kiraly, our director of government relations, joins us with an encouraging update on our public advocacy campaign to save NASA science. And don’t miss What’s Up with Bruce Betts, where we reflect on the role of science communicators and share a fresh Random Space Fact. Discover more at: https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/2025-cosmos-awardSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Science is a human story, and few have told it as beautifully as Deva Sobel. This week on Planetary Radio. I'm Sarah Alahmed of the Planetary Society, with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. Deva Sobel, the bestselling author of Longitude, Galileo's Daughter, and the Glass Universe, has been awarded the Planetary Society's Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science.

We'll hear from Deva in conversation with Matt Kaplan, the creator of Planetary Radio and Senior Communications Advisor here at the Planetary Society. We'll revisit her moving acceptance speech alongside tributes from Bill Nye and Matt Kaplan. Then Jack Corelli, our Director of Government Relations, joins us. He has an encouraging update on the public's overwhelming response to the proposed NASA

science budget cuts. And as always, we'll wrap things up with what's up with Bruce Betts, our Chief Scientist. He'll drop by to talk science communication and share a new random space fact. If you love Planetary Radio and want to stay informed about the latest space discoveries, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcasting platform. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with new and awe-inspiring ways to know the cosmos and our place within it. Storytelling is essential to exploration. It transforms data into meaning and gives discovery a sense of wonder. It can also turn missions into movements.

At the Planetary Society, we believe that science needs storytellers, those who can communicate not just the facts, but the awe and the struggle and the joy of the scientific journey. To honor the people that truly excel as storytellers in science, the Planetary Society created the Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science. Of course, it's named in tribute to the Planetary Society's co-founder Carl Sagan and his groundbreaking television series, Cosmos.

The award recognizes people who, like Carl Sagan, bring science and scientists to life for the public through accurate, imaginative, and emotionally resonant storytelling. The award isn't given annually, but only when people truly deserve it. The first awardee was James Cameron, the filmmaker and deep sea explorer

who won the award in 2005. Paula Apsel, who you'll also hear a bit about in this episode, was a longtime executive producer of Nova. She won it in 2007. Theoretical physicist and cosmologist Stephen Hawking was honored in 2010. Astrophysicist and science communicator Neil deGrasse Tyson received the award in 2015. And most recently, Alan Stern and the New Horizons team won it in 2016 for their storytelling

about the mission's Pluto flyby. Now in 2025, the Cosmos Award is being presented to Deva Sobel, author of Longitude, Galileo's Daughter, The Glass Universe, The Elements of Marie Curie, and so many others. In addition to her bestselling books, Deva has written for publications like The New York Times, The New Yorker, and Scientific American.

Her work brings to light the often overlooked human stories behind scientific breakthroughs. Just hours before she received the award in Washington, DC, Deva joined Planetary Radio founder Matt Kaplan for a conversation. They spoke about her life's work, her connection to Carl Sagan, and the enduring power of storytelling and science.

Dave, welcome back to Planetary Radio. Thank you. You are very welcome. And congratulations. I am thrilled to talk to you mere hours before you received the Planetary Society's Cosmos Award, one that I think you richly deserve. Thank you very much. And what better place to do it? Than the Cosmos Club. Exactly.

Oh, that's too cute. You are joining one of the most exclusive clubs on our Pale Blue Dot. I'm sure you've seen, you know, the complete title of the Cosmos Award is the Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science. Our leadership only selects a Cosmos Awardee when they really are confident that they found somebody who absolutely meets that description. That means there hasn't been one, as far as I could tell, in nine years. So it's not often.

Can you believe that it has been now more than 22 years since you adapted your bestseller, Galileo's Daughter, for that wonderful Planetary Society sponsored stage performance? Linda Pearl, John Rhys Davies. I went into the Planetary Radio Archive, because I hadn't heard that in quite a while, and dug up the interview that I did with you, very brief, informal interview that we did just prior to the performance backstage.

And it was there that you said to me, among other things, that you were happy to be doing this for the organization that Carl Sagan was a co-founder of because Carl had meant so much to you in setting your course, the directions that you've taken. Yeah. Yeah. So in 1972, I went to a public lecture that he gave at Ithaca College. So I was living in Ithaca. He was on the faculty at Cornell. And as my friend, Diane Ackerman says at the time, he was not famous.

It was just a badly combed scientist. And he gave a fantastic presentation about looking for other solar systems, planets of other stars and what those would look like. I remember sitting there thinking, this is about the most interesting thing I've ever heard. And then shortly after that, some of the journalism students from the college who were now recent alumni and they had started a little local newspaper called the Ethica New Times and they offered me the chance to interview Carl Sagan and they would pay me five dollars. But I thought, wow, I could get to talk to him.

And he agreed to talk to me the same day he turned down an interview with Newsweek. Now, he did things like that. So we had a very good talk, and I had worked at a newspaper. So I went home and wrote my story and I called him the next day to read it to him over the phone to make sure it was correct. And he really appreciated that. He corrected a thing or two. And then I told him that the science writer's job at the Cornell News Bureau was open and

I was supplying for it. And he said, oh, would you like me to write you a recommendation? And that's pretty much how everything happened for me. And my goodness, you have, I think, so honored him and how he felt about the importance of sharing the wonder of it all in all of your work. Well, I remember how he said that he believed that scientists who were funded with public money

should give at least 10% of their time toward public explanation of science. But so few scientists could do it as well as he could. And I think a lot of them resented him for it and accused him of showmanship. But he was a great presenter. I don't have to tell you, there's an entire generation of astronomers who are astronomers because they watched Cosmos on television. To say nothing of the Cosmos television series. That's what I mean. As far as I know is still inspiring those future astronomers. Right, because they watched that as children, teenagers, and decided that was what they wanted to do. Because I've interviewed so many astronomers

and that cohort, that age group, and I always ask them, what made you want to be an astronomer? I watched Cosmos on television. I still hear it. The impact was gigantic. It still is. Yeah, yes.

May it continue. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that we've talked, as each successive book appeared, It still is. Yeah. Yes. May it continue. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that we've talked as each successive book appeared. I was late getting to your latest, 2024's, The Elements of Marie Curie, How the Glow of Radium Litipath for Women in Science. And in past books, you've often written about forgotten or overlooked scientific, or at least in one case, a technological pioneer.

This time, it's maybe the most famous female scientist of all time. Definitely, she is. And yet, you still amazed me with the revelations that were certainly new to me. They were revealing to me so much about her life and accomplishments. There is one example that I've been sharing with friends and family just to say, look, there's so much more to this woman

than most of us know about today. And that was her act of courage and initiative during World War I. And I won't ask you, I don't think for any other anecdotes, though you are welcome to volunteer some, but this one I will ask you to tell people about, what she did during the war. So her first response to the war was to put together

the new field of X-rays to realize this would be the first war in which it would be possible to x-ray wounded soldiers. And she also knew that this was not a widespread technology, that there would be a lot of doctors unfamiliar with it. designated herself as a person to create a mobile X-ray unit that she could take to different hospitals around the city and as close to the front as the army would let her.

She personally outfitted 18 of those cars. She rode in one of them with her 17 year old daughter who trained as a nurse as soon as the war broke out. The two of them went around and at each place they had to convince the doctors that this was worth doing. And the doctors were immediate as soon as they saw what could be done. They were converts. Then they would want her to set up an x-ray facility at this mobile hospital, wherever they were. So she was doing that too.

Then she started a course for French women to become x-ray operators and technicians. While she was doing all of this, she trained 150 women to do this work. If that was all she did, if she hadn't discovered two elements or everything else and- And received the Nobel twice. The Nobel prizes and two areas of science.

But the reason I chose her was because I found out about the other women in her lab. And that was really the story for me. That is so much what I want to talk to you about here. This theme that runs through most of your work, this exploration of forgotten and overlooked scientists, innovators, in this case, not just the women that she trained to be X-ray machine operators, but also all of these women that she brought into her labs, who went on to their own notable achievements in science, including her

daughter, one of her two daughters. These women in science, who as I said, many went on to make their own notable achievements, I mean the daughter who went into science, eventually winning a Nobel as well, I was completely unaware of and certainly unaware that she had made it a major goal of her life to bring in these women, and men as well, but particularly women, and allow them to begin to reach their potential, which was an awfully difficult thing for women to do at that time. Yeah. I don't know that she intended to bring them in. My sense is that they were drawn to her because she was so famous, so early, and the science was new and interesting.

And there were not a lot of places you could go to learn about radioactivity. And if you were a young woman wanting to go into science, you would have a sense that she'd be more likely to let you in. And that was the case. I did not realize that she, I knew of course about her, her fame, but the notoriety that she got of this tremendous celebrity that she achieved at that time, including in the United States. Oh, absolutely in the United States. Oh, absolutely.

In the United States. Yeah. She, she was received as a heroin here as, as a great humanitarian because radium was the cure for cancer. So people were happy to raise money for her, to buy material for her research, to shower her with honors, honorary degrees. It was more than she could tolerate as a not very socially outgoing person. In her correspondence, she's quite lively and playful much of

the time. She was a wonderful writer. Yeah. A paragon of clarity. Her scientific papers are really, really something to read. She's perfectly clear. While we're on the topic of, well, I brought it up of correspondence, it plays such an important role in this book. And I have to think also of Galileo's daughter, where it is the whole basis of the book, the letters between Galileo and his poor, sequestered, brilliant daughter, Sister Maria Celeste. It's amazing, the revelations that you get from these very personal communications.

Yes. So, Madame Curie and her two daughters wrote to each other all the time. They were frequently separated by travel or various situations, and they wrote letters and they all saved each other's letters. So, a lot of them have been published in France, just as little collections of letters, just as Galileo's daughter's letters were published in Italy. That was one of my favorites. So I had two collections of letters, one, her letters to both girls. And then there was another collection that was just the older daughter and Marie.

CB It's such a marvelous way to reveal someone's interior. It's such a shame that people don't write letters lay out anymore. Yes, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. I pity the Davis O'Bells of the future who tried to emulate this work.

Yeah. I told you recently that long suffering clockmaker, John Harrison. Yes, you met Louise DeVoe. I did. Yeah. that long suffering clockmaker, John Harrison. Yes, you met Louise DeVoy. I did. I, the hero of your book, Longitude, which I don't think we got to talk about,

but it did inspire me when I was in London to make the trip to the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, climb up the hill and go and see his work because there are these two mechanical masterpieces, H2, H4. One of them, this thing that looks like a Rube Goldberg device. Yeah. That works. Yeah, that's H1.

Yeah. And then reduced to the size of a pocket watch and solved this wonderful challenge that the king had set, but he had a devil of time getting the reward for. Yep. And when that book came out, a number of people told me the same thing would happen today because he wasn't part of it. He wasn't in the establishment.

Exactly. Yeah. He wasn't educated. He didn't, he wasn't in the establishment. Exactly. Yeah. He wasn't educated. He wasn't in the university system. And that's part of why he succeeded because his thinking was totally original. And it was a huge challenge. There were ships being lost, running aground all over the planet because they couldn't tell where they were east and west, north and south, not difficult because of the sun, east and west, huge challenge.

And the king put up this reward for anybody who could come up with an accurate enough clock, which was key to being able to do all this. I mean, really, it seems like the greatest advance in navigation, perhaps in history, at least until we get to GPS. Yes. And GPS is a marriage of the rival systems from the 18th century, because you have this network of satellites, so they are like man-made stars, and then they're broadcasting time signals from atomic clocks. Every GPS satellite has an atomic clock built into it,

and I hadn't drawn that parallel to the work that Harrison did. Absolutely. Just wish the board of longitude could have gotten to judge that idea. Mm-hmm. They were all long gone. Who knows who John Harrison was, unless people read your book or otherwise ran across his work. So many of these people, unknown or very little known, underrated, certainly for me in the case of Madame Curie, the exception may be Copernicus.

Galileo. Galileo, certainly, yes, right. I keep thinking of Maria Celeste. But with Copernicus, I mean, certainly as he was alive and writing down his thoughts, he was not as well-known as we know him today. Oh, no. And he was afraid to make the idea public.

That's what interested me was the relationship we know him today. Oh no. And he was afraid to make the idea public. That's what interested me was the relationship between Copernicus and the person who convinced him to publish. He had resisted it for decades. Originally I wanted to write a play. That was all I was going to do. This confrontation between this young man from Protestant Germany comes to Catholic Copernicus in Poland and tries

to convince him to publish the idea and manages to do it. He's quite a character too. The fellow here goes to Copernicus. Yeah. Yeah. And then he manages to get it published with a dedication to the pope.

The whole thing's just- You can't make it up. You can't make it up. Yeah. And in his presence in Copernicus' diocese was illegal because all Lutherans had been banned. But somehow they managed to work together for two years. that somehow they managed to work together for two years. Anyway, it started out as a play, and then it became a play within a book. There is a bit of this relationship between religion and science, more directly, of course, in the story of Galileo, that can be found here and there, I think, in your books. Do you agree? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a factor. It's something Carl Sagan talked about at great length. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm just reporting on it. I didn't have much trouble with that myself. My parents were not religious and very interested in science. So there was no conflict for me.

I think the big conflict wasn't even a conflict. It was just not recognizing that I was not looking looking at women scientists with an unbiased eye. So the story of the glass universe, the Harvard women. Yes. So my real theme in the beginning was astronomy. I mean, Harrison was the clockmaker, but that looked like a problem that was going to be solved through astronomy. And actually in that situation, the astronomers

were the bad guys because of the competition. But I chose the Harvard women's story because their work was so important. The first time I interviewed Wendy Friedman, she was in charge of a Hubble telescope key project. And she said, we're using these stars as distance markers. And this is all based on the work of a woman who lived a hundred years ago.

So that was my introduction to Henrietta Leavitt. And then when I went to learn more about Henrietta Leavitt, turned out she was in this whole room full of women. Yeah, literally. A room full of women. So I thought, well, that's a great story. And then when I started to work on it, I remember I just kept being surprised by what they had done.

And I finally had to admit that I, I really had a very negative attitude about women, which was a revelation, you know, I, but I think it was partly a product of growing up in the 1950s. You certainly have made amends for that. And of course the book you're talking about, the glass universe, documenting for that. And of course, the book you're talking about, The Glass Universe, documenting these amazing women who in large part laid the basis for much of what was to come, even including that the universe is expanding and that those little blobs we see out there are not just clouds in our own galaxy, but entire galaxies of their own. Right, that was Henrietta Levitt's work

is what enabled Hubble to make that observation. And this year, 2025, is 100 years since his announcement based on her work. And it's also 100 years since Cecilia Payne published her doctoral dissertation in which she pointed out that the stars, against all expectations, consisted mostly of hydrogen. This was considered a wacko idea. And she was advised not to make too much of it in her thesis. But- I will just mention in passing, I'm sure you know, Hubble, who of course did his work at

the wonderful 100-inch telescope on top of Mount Wilson. It's really in fairly recent years that women, female astronomers have been allowed to go and do work of their own using that instrument, which of course now has been surpassed by many others, but it took us as oh, we want. A place for them to stay. Yes. And the monastery, I saw the transit of Venus at Mount Wilson and I got to stay in that building.

In the monastery. Not that it was all that comfortable or wonderful, but what a thrill to just be able to stay there. Yeah. So much of your books are these marvelous scientific achievements, but also telling the stories, the very personal stories in every one of these books of what these scientists and others went through to make these achievements, to have the careers

and make the discoveries that they did? I think people have a very mistaken view of scientists. Most people don't know a scientist, and scientists are so badly presented in the media as weird, antisocial, awkward, uncaring. I mean, I don't have to tell you how negative the stereotype is. And so that's very much on my mind.

These are people actually extremely passionate about what they do, real human beings. And the more of that that comes out, the better. I have never met a scientist, a good one, who doesn't show that passion. I mean, what our boss, Bill Nye, calls the PB&J, the passion, beauty and joy, the wonder of exploring and examining and understanding the cosmos. Can you say something about your process and how you come up with concepts, stories,

that you want to turn into a book and then research and do your writing? It's different every time. With Longitude, I went to a symposium at Harvard as a magazine reporter, and it was called the Longitude Symposium. It sounded wonderfully weird, but I had met the organizer, and he was a dynamic, interesting, charismatic fellow. He was so excited about this program. I knew it was going to be great.

I had an awful time convincing anybody to let me write about it because it sounded, what were the rejection letters? It sounded boring, weird, and esoteric. Who turned me down? The New Yorker, even National Geographic. I also have 12 or 13 rejection letters from British publishers telling me that the Brits don't want their history from an American. And that turned out not to be true. But anyway, I had a lot of trouble. I couldn't sell the idea for the story, even to Harvard Magazine, where I was a contributing editor.

And then just maybe three days before the meeting started, Harvard Magazine had a change of heart. They called me, could you drop everything, come up after all? And I think it was because they heard that Alistair Cook was the Banquardt speaker. And there were 500 people on the campus to attend it. It was three days and it was wonderful. It was well organized. You didn't have to choose. There was just one program to go through and it covered everything.

The history, the relevance, the personal story. And then there was a museum exhibit of important timekeepers from the Harvard collections. Alistair Coke at the banquet. So I wrote this article. And then the magazine made it the cover story. If you've gone to Harvard, if you've been a Neiman Fellow, if your kid went to Harvard, you get that magazine forever. If your kid went to Harvard, you get that magazine forever. So the magazine went to an alumnus who had just taken a new job at a small publishing house in New York, George Gibson. He read the article and he was thinking of a series of science books for adults who would not identify themselves as being interested in science, which I thought was a great idea. And he said, in this story, I think could be the first

book in that series. Do you have enough to turn it into a book? And I did. And then that was the research. Everybody who'd been at the meeting was the person to go to about this or that. So it really came together very quickly. So I went to a watch and clock museum in Pennsylvania where I just happened to read this book about Galileo's efforts to solve the longitude problem. And there in the book was a letter from his daughter about the clock and her conduct. And I didn't know Galileo had children, the fact that she was a nun, he was a heretic, and the whole thing.

It was just explosive. And the letter was fantastic and that Book was written by Silvio Badini Was a member of the Cosmos Club and who had some connection to the Library of Congress Anyway, I wrote to him it turned out he had translated that letter for inclusion in the book But if I was going to read the other 124 letters of hers, they were still in Italian. And I, 30 years previously, had taken three or four years of university-level Italian

for no good reason at the time. And if I hadn't done that, I could not have taken on it. I've had a lot of wonderful coincidences. I've been very fortunate. So that's how that idea happened. It grew directly out of Longitude. And then if you work on Galileo, you wind up at Copernicus, then the Harvard women. And then the realization that I had this latent misogyny that I wasn't

aware of. And I was asked to review a book called Women in their Element, which was about women chemists, a collection of essays about women chemists by numerous authors. Madam Curie was one, her daughter was another, but then there was so many other women I'd never heard of who had passed some time in Madam Curie's lab. Well, that was the story. That was something that I knew nobody knew about, Madam Curie. And everybody's heard of her, but most people don't know anything about her.

She feels familiar, but her life is so much more wonderful. So much richer, right? It's what a life. What a life, yeah. These personal stories, which are draw me and draw so many people into the books. But you find a balance between that and presenting the science.

It's a lot of science in this. Yes. Yeah. That challenge of finding the right balance is something that I think every science communicator, science storyteller that I have met, and certainly I have met and certainly I have struggled with finding that balance between accessibility and doing justice to the science, giving it the right depth and accuracy as well. Do you struggle with that at times or?

No, that's one of the few things I don't struggle with. And I'll tell you what works for me is I've taught science writing and this is what I tell the students too, which is not to think about the general public because who is that? And I try to keep one person in mind that I am telling this story to. And that answers a lot of questions about how much I have to explain. You pick a specific person? A specific person. So I wrote Longitude for my mother.

She was still alive then and she was a navigator. She took courses from the power squadron when my father got interested in sailing. And she took me with her because I was little and it was night school. Of course, I didn't pay attention, but I remember that it was that important to her that she did that. She had a sextant, but I knew she didn't know the history. And it was so much fun to share that story with her and Then she was still alive when the book came out and she got to enjoy that

What a gift. Yeah, your stories have resonated Well with me and with so many people because they are so well told. Thank you, but at their core It's so easy to become involved in these personal stories of discovery. Do you think about why these are still so appealing to people in the 21st century? I think everybody can relate to or want to know what that must feel like when you discover something.

But it's not something that the average person can experience. We are not far off from the dinner tonight with the board of the Planetary Society and you receiving the award. I'll cut it off with one more question. And that is whether you ever think about and whether this in any way it goes into your writing finding relevance for the challenges we face today in these wonderful examples from history. I think there's always relevance. The most obvious one is that scientists are always having a struggle for funding, for

public understanding. That never changes how they're perceived, how they're treated. I'm always interested in that. And at this moment, things look so dark and dreadful. A lot of people are asking what can I do? There aren't many things that I feel I can do, but I can tell these stories. And I don't know how much it helps, but I like to think it does. I hope it does. I can safely assure you that it helps enormously because I'm sure that there are a few people up the street here, senators, members of the House of Representatives, and certainly members of their

staff who have read your books and because of that know the importance of this quest. Certainly, we at the planetarium decide to feel that way and it's why we feel this honor, the Cosmos Award is really, I'll say it again, so richly deserved. Well, thank you. It's extremely meaningful to me, especially because of Carl Sagan. And you know, I was with them on the filming of Cosmos. I went as a representative from ArCO, who was the funder.

So it just feels very, very close and special and wonderful. Thank you, Devo. We'll be right back with the 2025 Cosmos Awards after this short break. Greetings, Bill Nye here. The U.S. Congress approves NASA's annual budget, and with your support, we promote missions to space by keeping every member of Congress and their staff informed about the benefits of a robust space program. We want Congress to know that space exploration ensures

our nation's goals in workforce technology, international relations, and space science. Unfortunately, important missions are being delayed, some indefinitely. That's where you come in. Join our mission as a space advocate by making a gift today. Right now, when you donate, your gift will be matched up to $75,000 thanks to a generous Planetary Society member. With your support, we can make sure every representative and Senator in D.C. understands

why NASA is a critical part of U.S. national policy. With the challenges NASA is facing, we need to make this investment today. So make your gift at planetary.org slash take action. Thank you. Now that you've heard Deva Sobel reflect on her remarkable career, it's time for the moment that we've all been waiting for, the presentation of the Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science.

Bill Nye, our CEO of the Planetary Society, kicks things off with a few words about Carl Sagan's legacy and the power of storytelling and science. Then Matt Kaplan is going to return to share a beautiful tribute to Deva and her impact on generations of readers and explorers. Finally, Deva takes the stage to share a few words about what this award means to her. Greetings, greetings! It's so good to be here. I am honored to be here, honored to be here with our honoree. So the Cosmos Award was created as, I would think of it as an outgrowth of the mission of the Society. So the Planetary Society was formed to advance space science at a time when the founders, our beloved Lou Friedman, who's

still running around, Bruce Murray, head of the Jet Propulsion Lab at the time, and Carl Sagan, felt that public interest in space exploration was very high, but government support of it was not so high. And the same thing is going on today. Carl Sagan is famous for being such a remarkable communicator of science. And the Planetary Society's mission or values are to engage people around the world, that space exploration is for everyone. Space exploration is, if I may, part of the human story. And so when we have people who can tell stories

about space exploration and about the cosmos, that's worth celebrating. So along this line, the Cosmos Award was created. We give this award not regularly, only when we feel it's deserved and when we feel it's important and when we want the world to know. As Carl Sagan said many, many times, when you're in love, you want to tell the world. And so the awardees of the Cosmos Award are people that are in love with science. We're in love with scientific knowledge and the process of science

and how space exploration especially brings out the best in us. So it is my honor, everyone, to read our declaration from the Board of Directors. Whereas the Planetary Society established the Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science to honor individuals who, in the tradition of co-founder Carl Sagan, inspire public engagement with science through accurate, imaginative, and compelling storyteller. And, whereas, Deva Sobel has made significant contributions

to science communication through her bestselling books and articles, bringing the history and human stories of scientific discovery to a global audience with clarity, elegance, and insight. And whereas, her work exemplifies the values of intellectual curiosity, accuracy, and accessibility that are central to the Cosmos Award, and her impact on public understanding of science reflects the very spirit in which the award was created. Now therefore, be it resolved that the Board of Directors of the Planetary Society

hereby recognizes Davis Obell as the 2025 recipient of the Cosmos Award for Outstanding Public Presentation of Science, this the 30th day of May 2025. I'm going to introduce my colleague and long-time friend, perhaps you recognize Matt Kaplan from Planetary Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, Matt Kaplan. It is my profound honor to be part of presenting this award to Deva Sobel, whose remarkable contributions to science writing have enlightened and inspired millions around the world. I am among her biggest fans. I first encountered Deva 22, now it's 22 and a half years ago. How many of you were lucky enough to be

at the Pasadena Playhouse when Linda Pearl and John Rhys Davies and your board colleague, Robert Picardo, who directed them, brought Galileo's daughter to life, which was based on, of course, her Pulitzer Prize finalist book, Galileo's Daughter, which you exerted to put together the script for that performance.

I was excited to catch Deva for a few precious moments shortly before the performance. It was a backstage conversation. And she has since been, was my guest on Planetary Radio for nearly every book as it came out, and every time it was utterly charming. I recently read and loved Davis Latus, the elements of Marie Curie, how the glow of radium lit a path for women in science. We got to talk a little bit about this and other things when I interviewed her a few hours ago today. Marie Curie once stated that in science we should be interested in phenomena, not individuals. And that's fine if you're a scientist, to focus on

objective observation rather than the observer. There's wisdom in this approach. In separating the human element from the pursuit of natural laws, the ones that run the cosmos, it has shaped so much of scientific discourse and progress throughout history. But, Deva is not a scientist, and she has shown us the incompleteness of that perspective. Through works like Galileo's daughter, Longitude, The Glass Universe, she has demonstrated that science is not merely a collection of discoveries,

but a deeply human enterprise that is filled with passion, struggle, wonder, and perseverance. She transformed with longitude what might have seemed a dry technical challenge determining East-West position at sea into a captivating human drama. The story of this guy, John Harrison, the chronometer maker, wasn't just about the mechanics of building a clock,

but about his lifelong struggle against skepticism, institutional resistance, and the limitations of his era. Through Deva's eyes, we witnessed not just the solution to a scientific puzzle, but the triumph of human ingenuity and determination. Similarly in Galileo's daughter, Deva revealed this astronomer as not merely a scientific revolutionary, but as a father whose correspondence with his daughter, this secluded, sequestered, poverty stricken nun,

Sister Maria Celeste, he revealed in his correspondence with her his doubts, his joys, his humanity. Those Galilean moons of Jupiter and so much more are made so much richer when we understand the individual who observed them and the price he paid for his discoveries. I think that what makes Deva's work extraordinary is her understanding that scientific breakthroughs don't emerge from cold mechanical minds, but from the dreams, ambitions, and curiosities

of real people navigating real constraints. She has shown us that to fully appreciate discovery, innovation and exploration, we must understand the human context from which these emerge. That while scientific truths may be universal, the path to discovering them is intensely personal and shaped by the unique perspectives

of those who seek them. In short, she reminds us that science is not a sterile laboratory or a robot crossing space, but a human adventure. Deva, you have also shown us that science and wonder have never been the exclusive provinces of men, though demonstrating this truth can still be a struggle. Marie Curie faced and largely overcame profound challenges, elevating scores of brilliant, dedicated women of science. It's sad to think, you know, when you consider that we still need to be reminded of this, but when you consider that, we still need to be reminded of this. But you have shown us how uplifting and rewarding this struggle can be.

Your work stands as testament to the power of storytelling in science. You have shown us that the universe is explained not just through equations and experiments, but through human stories. And you've made distant historical figures breathe again, allowing us to see science through their eyes and feel their wonder. I feel like I've accompanied you on these journeys. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Deva Sobel, historian, journalist, masterful chronicler of the human spirit in its quest to understand the cosmos.

For illuminating the human dimensions of scientific discovery for your meticulous research and for your remarkable writing gifts, you have earned the Cosmos Award, a small token of our appreciation for the worlds you have opened to your readers. Thank you. I won't be here for long, but I would like to say a few things. Longitude began as a project that sounded weird, esoteric. And people would ask me what I was working on. And I would say, I'm writing a book about how the problem of finding position at sea was solved. People would just look down, just didn't know what to say. And my son, it was about 10 at the time, would ask me, do you really think anybody's

going to read this? And I used to say, well, my mother, a small circle of friends. And then we had this extraordinary experience of this book just becoming a phenomenon. This award is especially meaningful to me because I really did know Carl Sagan. I should say I met him and had interaction with him on many occasions. And I even had a little job on the filming of Cosmos. And the one other experience I wanna share with you, Paula Absola is a former winner.

Paula did a production of Longitude for Nova, and then there was also a television version of Galileo's Daughter, which was called Galileo's Battle for the Heavens. And unbeknownst to me, this television production got nominated for an Emmy. So I thought, oh, that's nice, but I just forgot all about it. And then some months later, I got a frantic phone call. Was I in New York? And did I have a dress?

The Emmys were that night and I was actually in California at a DPS meeting and I had my son with me. So this is the same boy who wanted to know if anybody would read Longitude. And then we won and Paula felt so guilty that they gave me the statue. I have the Emmy. But it was a wonderful teaching moment because I said to my son, you know, just hope that whatever you do in life, you really enjoy it in the small moments of the day. Because now you see, when it comes time for the big celebration, they could forget to invite you. So I'm really happy to be at this celebration. Just extremely validating.

And I'm so grateful. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Whoo-hoo-hoo! Oh, thank you. As Deva Sobel reminded us, science has always struggled for support and understanding. And in moments like this, that struggle feels especially urgent. During the awards ceremony, Bill Nye spoke about the importance of public engagement

in protecting the future of exploration. Now we turn to Jack Corelli, our Director of Government Relations, for a quick update on the latest developments in U.S. space policy. The President's recent budget request proposes a huge cut to NASA's science programs, threatening to cancel and delay 41 missions across the agency. Thankfully, Jack has some wonderful news about the public response to our international petition and how you can still help keep science moving forward. Hey, Jack. Hey, Sarah. How's it going?

Pretty good. So, I wanted to take a moment to ask you how our petition went because it's an international petition. This is something we don't do very often and the deadline is now closed. So hopefully we have some good news to share with people. Oh, we don't just have good news, Sarah. We have great news. So in response, just as a little refresher, in response to the skinny budget, which was the really the big top line numbers really that showed that science was going to get cut tremendously by 47% in

the president's budget request. When that came out in early May, we began mobilizing our supporters. We've already had a banner year for advocacy. And so with this petition, we launched this because we wanted to give people all over the world an opportunity to voice their displeasure with this radical shift in space policy that would decimate space science at NASA. We wanted to give a voice to the public in this process. And boy, did people deliver.

Our initial goal was 1,000 signatures. We hit that within the first 30 hours of the petition being live. And so we upped the ante. And we had to keep upping the ante to right now, which I just submitted this to the Senate Appropriations Committee, 20,787 signatories from around the world signed this petition. The deadline was June 12th that was informed by this appropriations process that happens on the Hill. In less than a month, in less than a month, 20,000, almost 21,000 people signed the petition.

We allowed them to provide some commentary, right? To provide a space for people to offer their thoughts. And I was expecting at maybe like 10% of people might take advantage of that. It's almost everybody wrote something to talk about what NASA science means to them. And just some of the sentiments were that this is what leads the world,

that this is something that engages students, that this is something leads the world, that this is something that engages students, that this is something that inspires technological innovation and scientific discovery. It's just a trove of great sentiments about what science means to the global public. And in addition to that, almost 17% of signatories that were international

represented 109 countries. Wow. 109. There's not that many countries, right? There's less than 200. And we have represented over half of them. The international public delivered almost 21,000 signatures. It's truly amazing.

And I'm really grateful for everyone that signed this petition. And I'm sure there are people who are listening to this right now who are like, oh, no, I had no idea there was a petition. I missed the deadline. I would still love to stick up for NASA science. What are the next steps for this and what can people still do? So right now, this petition has been submitted to the Appropriations Committee. They offer what is called Outside Witness Test witness testimony, which allows outside organizations to provide input as a part of the appropriations process. And so this petition and the signatories have been submitted, but this is not the end of the dialogue, right?

This is really, I mean the release of the budget request is just the beginning of the conversation about NASA's budget next year. And so the conversation about NASA's budget next year. And so head on over to our action hub, planetary.org slash save hyphen NASA hyphen science. And you can see all of the updates about things happening as a part of this process, find opportunities to advocate and support the NASA science programs,

all the other ways that you can support this effort to save NASA science. Bookmark it. Make it your home page. That's where you need to go to find this information about what to do next. Well thank you for all the work that you're doing and thank you to everybody out there who signed our petition and everyone that is standing with us to try to save NASA science. Thanks for giving us some good news this week, Jack. Yeah, hey, we need it so I'm happy to be able to provide that. Thanks for giving us some good news this week, Jack. Yeah, hey, we need it. So I'm happy to be able to provide that. Thanks, Sarah.

Now it's time to check in with Dr. Bruce Betts for What's Up. Hey, Bruce. Hi, Sarah. We have a new Cosmos Award winner. Yay. Yeah, I've never met Davis O'Bell, but I do hear that you got to meet her at some point.

Very briefly, yes. At a reading we had way back when for her Galeo's daughter book. We had well known people reading, doing a reading from it. So, yeah. I was a big fan of the glass universe. Anytime someone writes a book about the Harvard computers, I, I always read it. How many of the Cosmos award winners have you actually met? Three. So I guess about 50%.

Which ones? Yes. I mean, obviously Deva. Yes. And Alan Stern and Neil Tigras-Tyson. Science communication was something that Carl Sagan, our co-founder, believed in very heavily. And I think in a lot of ways, the way we communicate about these space missions really changes the way that they're supported and sometimes even designed. So I wanted to ask you how you feel about that.

Like, do you think the way that we communicate about these things actually makes real world impacts on the way that we actually go about space exploration? Yes, although typically for the big stuff, it's not a big driver. Typically, it's not a significant driver. However, once you have a mission, trying to communicate at both the missions, the entities involved, people like the Planetary Society, that's really, really important

in getting the word out there. And sometimes things are involved early on. We've tried to get small, we've succeeded in getting small portions of missions devoted to public outreach. And obviously there are other things that others have done. Back to the golden record, Voyager, we've flown various artifacts on various missions,

including the surface of Mars, for educational and outreach purposes. So we think it's important, and I certainly think it's important, and communicating, getting people involved, engage as much as you can, and then just putting the word out in an interesting way that's understandable and inspiring

is kind of what I like to do. I try to throw on a little bad humor as well. Sometimes it's good and the Planetary Society works on all sorts of levels doing this with people like you and are many other people who work and trying to get out there and get people engaged and inspired and working on these things. So yeah, I'm a big fan. I guess that's all to some reason say, well, yes, Sarah, yes, I am a fan. I'm a supporter.

Well, you know, if anybody out there is listening and you're someone that also communicates science, thanks for doing your part to try to shape the way that people feel about space and teach these stories and share just the joy of all these things that we love. If you make it accessible enough, you can bring a lot of people in. And that's, that's how we spread the word of the awesomeness of space. Well said.

Hear, hear. Communicator. So what do you got for me, Bruce? I've got a random spoof. Oh man. Someone totally just scratched your record. Just, yeah. Yeah, I know.

I had trouble. Yeah, it was kind of a wild party back in the day with the records. Anyway, stars. What do you think, Sarah? Do you think the sun is, I mean, it's pretty massive. It's pretty big. A lot of stuff there. There are much bigger stars, as I'm sure you are quite familiar with.

Some of the largest can be somewhere about 200 solar masses. That's when they're in their active burning stage for they're doing anything even crazier. That's impressive. Then the red dwarfs get all small and can be like 8% of the Sun's mass. So there's a lot of variety out there, which is easy to lose track of if you're just focused on our solar system. But there are some seriously, I mean, Sun's already unimaginably large, at least to my imagination.

I can try to picture it, but it's so huge. And then the fact that you have these other things that are so massive and huge, it's an amazing universe we have, Sarah. Thank you for that. It's so true, though. I don't know. Like, you can try to know how big the Sun is and how tiny it is compared to other objects, but I really like watching those scaling videos or going to a science museum where they actually show

the scale of stars versus each other. Because once you realize just how tiny our Sun is, it's actually kind of horrifying in a cool way. Yeah. Now, most of the stars are on the small side, but those big ones, don't cross them. But you know, live fast, die young, they burn out a lot faster than other ones, they pay the price for their awesomeness.

They do indeed, as they have much shorter lifespans being normal stars before they burn out. And they burn much hotter, and they're much bluer as a result. Then there's red dwarfs, they just chill at some hot temperature for humans but cool for stars, and hang around for tens of billions in life in the universe things just sitting there, burning some hydrogen going, yeah, this is cool. Oh my god. Look at that dude over there. He's so hot

All right, let's check this out All right, everybody Go out there Look in the night sky and think about marshmallows Thank you We've reached the end of this week's episode of Planetary Radio, but we'll be back next week with more space science and exploration. If you love the show, you can get Planetary Radio t-shirts at planetary.org slash shop,

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in Pasadena, California, and is made possible by our members around the world, united by a shared passion to shape the human story of our future in space. You can join us at planetary.org slash join. Mark Hilverda and Ray Paoletta are our associate producers. Casey Dreier is the host of our monthly Space Policy edition. Andrew Lucas is our audio editor.

Josh Joyle composed our theme, which is arranged and performed by Peter Schlosser. And until next week, add Astra.