Plumbing the Death Star - Are There Better Ways to Invade Middle Earth? (Feat. Gabe)

Episode Date: November 9, 2015

In which our heroes leap onto their steeds, rally an army, and then decide there's got to be a better alternative as they ask the question: are there better ways to invade Middle Earth? We talk about the average workaday hobbit, wonder if orcs are insects, and try to figure out how tall Sauron is. Zammit explores the fallout of Orc Holes, Jackson worries about Fantasy-Genocide, and Gabe just wishes Sauron had a better PR guy. So put on your best smile, start the campaign trail, and see if you can get some Dwarves to Vote #1 Sauron. He's the best thing that's ever happened to Middle Earth! Sauron will fuck your warg, he is as serious as cancer.Want to help buy Sauron a snazzy suit? Head to http://www.patreon.com/sanspantsradio and for as little as $1 a month you can help us buy him a more subtle wardrobeAnd don’t forget to get your free audible book download and a 30 day free trial at http://www.audibletrial.com/SanspantsRadio there’s probably at least three books about the political suicide of siding with orcs.Want to come see just how handsome we really are? Well now’s your chance as we’re doing another live show on the 10th of December. Just head to https://sanspantslive.eventbrite.com.au for more information and to book your ticket now! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

SANSPANCE RADIO, FUELED BY FRUSTRATION! Today's episode is sponsored by Damades, Joe Crump, Jared King, Mick Coates, Manny, Justin Reed, Stuart Gordon, Jeff Forehand, and Rob Kahn. I hope you fine young people find true happiness and enlightenment in like the next six months tops maybe maybe seven um also while you're listening myself and jack guested on another podcast this week which you can listen to right now just search for cynical cartoons wherever you find good podcasts and hear us talk about rubik the amazing cube a cartoon from the 80s where a bunch of Mexican kids have to appease a crazy god. At least, that's what we got out of that show. That cynical cartoon, so stop listening to this and go listen to that.

Or do it after. Or listen at the same time. Whatever. Do what you like. I'm not your dad. So, enjoy the episode. Episodes. Because there's two things now. Yeah. Welcome to another episode of plumbing the death star where we ask the important questions like are there better ways to invade middle earth the answer to that question is unquestionably yes. I think so. I mean, what was Sauron's plans? All right, Sauron's plans mostly consist of eventually I'll get the ring.

In the meantime, I'm going to keep throwing orcs at people. Now, for a second, let's consider the general state of Middle-earth at the time of the Lord of the Rings films. You've got the hobbits. Very segregated. But look what all these... You've got Gondor, which is falling apart. They've got two major cities, one of which is just a wreck.

The other one is well on the way to becoming a wreck. You've got the elves who just kind of waltz around the trees. Living in their weird, like, bathhouse. Totally disconnected. The dwarves are there, I guess. Under the mountains. Yeah, under the mountains. Dealing with their mind bullshit.

The human... One of the big... Rohan is a fucking wreck. One of the biggest dwarf minds, like, they're fucked anyway. Yeah, exactly. Moria's a piece of shit. Yeah, Moria's, like, their big, big kingdom, and that's fucked off. They've got Erebor, I guess.

And then, yeah, and Rohan. Rohan's a piece of shit. And the hobbits just sit around smoking pipe weed like it should not be that fucking hard to take over Middle-earth this is not a unified country at this time really so Sauron this like genius sort of one of the one of the Maya or whatever he was from the Undying Lands oh were the Maya the big big ones or the less big ones sure or whatever he was from the Undying Lands. Were the Maya the big, big ones or the less big ones? Sure. Anyway, whatever he was, he was practically a god, genius god, and his entire scheme consists of

let's just throw orcs in there until something breaks. Okay, aside from the fact that that probably should have worked, the only reason it didn't is because people don't like orcs. How are orcs described all through the films? They're foul. They're gross. They're disgusting. Coming out of the mud.

Green skins. They're horrible. And the film goes out of its way to depict them as horrible. They're literally dug out of ground placentas where they're covered in slime and kill each other. And they're fucking awful things. They're meat-spacking the menu boys. Exactly.

So why use orcs? Because it's not like sauron doesn't have humans at his disposal yeah that's true they're the ones with the oliphants the ones who come in the boats at the end of return of the king yeah he's got people at his disposal now if sauron says okay hey and particularly if you like look at like some stuff sauron's whole early schemes in Numenor and everything was all about tempting people. It was all about getting into people's ears and being like, hey, look, I'm actually offering something better here. So if he actually put together a human army and said, look, what I'm offering is

order, stability, peace, all of that, appear not as this big fucking spiky helmeted thing or a big flaming eye, because that screams positivity. I kind of always assumed that was what he was pitching to the orcs. He was like of always assumed that was what he was pitching to the orcs. He was like, hey- That's what he was pitching to the orcs, but why use the orcs?

Like, pitch to the humans. It would be so much easier for, like- Because Sauron has- he's not an orc. He's got no allegiance to orcs. I'm telling you, if Sauron changed his whole appearance, made himself out to be, like, this beautiful kind of godlike being, and then you had a democratic election for Middle-earth, Sauron would win in a landslide.

Compared to fucking Denethor kicking around in Gondor, it's like, what are your options? You've got Denethor who's busy just kind of like sitting in his gilded tower

mumbling to himself. You've got Aragorn who is just wandering the wilderness doing not very much. They do not have a leader of the land. At all.

There is nobody for the, that's one of the whole points of the film, there's nobody for Middle-Earth to unite around. There's a vacuum. Because if you've got him, Saron being like, look at me,

he's got Saruman being like, he's a well-respected wizard, and he's like, he's running, mate. Exactly, exactly, right? People are like, vote for me. This guy thinks I'm rad. Gandalf being like, well, Saruman's rad. Saron needed like a campaign advisor or somebody

to sit him down and say, look, you need to present a different front to the people. Because right now, all you've got to sell is I am evil and will turn everything into a desolate wasteland. Obviously, both those things are true. But the people of Middle-earth don't need to know that. Exactly. And plus, like, so Middle-earth, it's a fantasy world.

And in a fantasy world, races, like the hobbits and the elves and stuff, they have, like, a set personality. So campaigning, like, for a specific race has got to be so easy. You just roll into fucking Hobbiton and you're like, yeah, I'll keep up this. Look, you know what you're doing now? Fireworks. Fireworks for all.

More of that, and they'll be like, More pipeweed. Done. Locked in. Got my vote. Elves. Elves are going to be the difficult one. Elves are going to be the difficult one, Elves are going to be the difficult one,

but once you've got everyone else on site, what are the elves doing? The fucking elves don't even... Sauron's invading Middle-earth, and the elves don't even care. They're all going to the Undying Lands anyway. That's true. It takes until the two towers for the elves en masse

to actually be like, maybe we should do something about this. Plus, you need to be like, as a campaign, you kind of want to be us v them. Yeah. So it's like everyone v elves. Because the dwarves are already going to be on your side. And the elves are so easy to demonise. They are. Like really fucking easy.

They're literal ivory towers. Exactly. And everybody's already envious of them. Everybody's already like, oh, they live forever and they're all really attractive. Yeah. And they clearly think they're better than us. They sit in their beautiful ivory towers. Literal ivory towers. They actually think they're better than everyone because they kind of are.

Yeah, well, almost objectively. And don't they know it? They would be the easiest race. The only race who could actually pose a direct threat to Sauron. And the easiest race to fucking demonize. Just slander. Just slander the fucking elves. How did this not

occur to him? No wonder he fucked up if his entire strategy was orcs. It's more orcs. Just force the ring back to me somehow. Because he's got the crystal balls so he can clearly advertise. He can do some great campaign ads.

Yeah, for sure. What's the whole thing with the ring? Like, we talk about the powers of the ring. What are the actual powers the ring has? Invisibility. Invisibility. Apart from invisibility, it's invisibility and

it makes people desperately want it. Which, let's face it, is kind of a form of temptation. The whole point of the ring is it is a form of temptation that tempts Boromir, tempts Frodo, tempts Faramir.

It's got that impact on characters all throughout the trilogy and through the Hobbit films. Bilbo as well. Exactly. It tempts Boromir, tempts Frodo, tempts Faramir. It's got that impact on characters all throughout the trilogy and through the Hobbit films, Bilbo as well. Exactly. The tempts Galadriel. Why can't Sauron get a little bit of that charming temptation

and use that? Yeah. He would take over Middle-earth in a night. Easily. In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat. Because what is Gondor going to do?

Can you honestly see drunken Denethor standing up and being like, no, no, none of this. No, you should be lining up behind me. And Théoden, who literally just sits on his shriveled throne and mumbles. And that's all he can do. Like, neither of those guys are inspiring leaders. Wasn't that also Sauron's plan?

No, Sauron's the rat man. Yeah, that part can stay. That part can stay. That disorder. He can do both. There's nothing contradictory in that. That's a good point. That part can stay. He can do both. There's nothing contradictory in that. That's a good point. Not a good point.

What's contradictory is, okay, let's weaken Théoden. I mean, no, it's not contradictory, but let's weaken Théoden and then continue to throw orcs at people. Why not just weaken Théoden? You've actually got Saruman speaking through Théoden. Instead of just throwing orcs at them, why don't you have Théoden say hey guys, Sauron's got something to offer here, let's Rohan

line up behind Sauron who maybe can make Rohan great again. Because Sauron he doesn't die really, he's immortal yeah? Well basically immortal, so he's immortal to a given degree of immortal. But he's got time he doesn't need orcs so let's immortal to a given degree of immortality but basically he's got time he doesn't need orcs

so let's just as it stands without even doing a campaign manager because like a campaign trail whatever you call it

if we just take orcs away isn't he already more successful yes like the reason why everyone kind of bands together

to sort of stop him is kind of because of the orcs. Yeah. Right? Like he creates the orcs and he bands everyone together to be like, oh, a common enemy. Of course, let's get him. So if we just take away the orcs. And then he gets defeated.

Take away the orcs. And so he just does exactly what he's doing anyway. Take away the orcs. Hire five Grima Wormtongues. Yeah. Five people with that ability. Just five. And plant them.

Everywhere. Yeah. Plant one in Gawandor. Plant one in Rohan. Plant one. Well, maybe not the elves, but fuck them everywhere yeah plant one in gondor plant one in rohan plant one well maybe not the elves but fuck the elves like plant one in hobbiton yeah and just have them muttering in you know the ear of whoever the designated leader of whatever kingdom it is you would have it in a month now i know my my history of of lord of the rings isn't great but because sauron that is that the name he was using for a long time no um because because now he's like a basic primeval from before and then he kind of rises lord of the rings nerds

do forgive me um it's been a long time since i read the books but there's he was around for a while he was the he was an acolyte of morgoth or melkor who was like the basically the devil in talking yeah um who went around with ungoliant who was a big spider who was she loves mother fucking shit up and then sauron was kind of his right hand man melkor was destroyed somewhere along the line ungoliant ate itself which hey that's a good way to get by exactly why not i get it and um yeah you know and um and then sauron kind of he kicked around he went to numenor which was where the gondor, well, Aragorn's line came from anyway, where it was basically Atlantis.

Like he went to the Middle-earth Atlantis, he corrupted it, and it got flooded and destroyed. And I think Sauron was killed, his bodily form, where apparently in Numenor he was quite beautiful and tempting and all of those things, which he just kept going. Yeah, I don't know, I had to go so... So basically, was he known as Sauron before, is my question? No, I don't know. I had to go. Yeah. So basically,

was he known as Sauron before is my question? No, I don't think. Oh, maybe. Because if he was, again, like, just change your name, buddy. Just change your name.

Just lie. That's what I'm thinking. A different point in Numenor. But then after Numenor, I think he became Sauron. Okay. But yeah, changing your name. Like, I mean,

he sort of did like, he was the necromancer for a while, which I mean, okay. Okay. If you're going to change your name and disguise your identity, you don't go from Sauron to the fucking necromancer. Neither of those things sound good. It's like, okay, on the one hand, Sauron, he's bad.

Don't want him back. Oh, what's this? The necromancer. That sounds like a positive force on the Middle Earth economy. That sounds like a really good thing to get behind That's what's going to unite us Raising the dead It kind of does

And fire the ring raids Nobody's enjoying the ring raids They're bad press They're terrible press Plus they're kind of bad at their job They are They kind of fail to find the hobbits so often. And they're literally a foot away and they're smelling them out.

And they can't even find them. Not only are they shit at their jobs, they look a little bit unsettling. They fly big slimy worm dragon things. Chuck a white sheet over them. Exactly. Cover them in white. Or if you have to use them. Cover them in white.

Yes. Everyone loves white and bright and kind of shit. Just do that. or if you have to use them cover them in white everyone loves it white and bright and kind of shit they could even practically look like they do when Frodo sees them they could look like that, that'd be fine a bit of PR polish really it's as simple as that

it would change the whole thing because if people say you've got your leaders of Gondor and Rohan and what not saying we need to rally against Sauron. And the people are like, is he really that bad? You're getting me so nice and warm and pretty. People are dumb. It would be so easy.

I know. But here's a weird thing. And again, you get rid of the orcs and you're right. Like, it's just not a problem. But like, say I'm just your Joe Blow Hobbit. I'm in that little... Hobbiton. No, whatever the pony place was.

Prancing Pony. Prancing Pony. Prancing Pony. I'm just drinking it. I don't know what's going on. I don't know the political situation of Middle Earth. That's the guy you have to pitch to. Does he even know what's all going on? None of the hobbits know what's going on.

You'd have to go in and be like, hey, I'll lead you. Instead of setting ringwraiths in, like cutting people down, literally as they ride into town, just killing people. I mean, it's I'll lead you. Instead of setting ringwraiths in, like cutting people down, literally as they ride into town, just killing people. I mean, just, yeah, it's as simple as that. I mean.

Okay. So what about this? So you've got Sauron at the top. Yeah. So Klee's got a word of Saruman. So it's like, hey, buddy, he can corrupt him or convince him to come inside. So Chansar, he could- Saruman's his eyes on the ground.

So Chansar- Like, I'm watching out in his tower. He could be like, hey, like Gandalf, like maybe if you approach Gandalf and give him some options, maybe he could convince him. Maybe not. We don't know. I'm just putting that out there. But rather than, he sends out the ringwraiths, right?

But rather than that, draw them back. Maybe get some other people. And as you're saying, maybe they campaign. Maybe send one to Gondor. Send one to Hobbiton. Send one to, what's the dwarf place? Erebor. Erebor.

So you send some of them out and, again, build a campaign them. Just make them a different party, like the Sauron party. And instead of fucking up Moria. Elected. I know that Moria was mostly destroyed by the Balrog, but there was also a lot of orcs fucking around. Just send someone to Moria. The Hobbit films prove that dwarves

are pretty fucking easy to corrupt. Give them something shiny. Yeah, I know. And they're pretty much going to be like, yes, I'm in. And they're going to be, like, on your side if you be like, all right, what's happening? Because, like, I'm pretty sure Sauron

didn't give a shit about the Balrog. No. There's no Allegiance in there. You come in, squish that Balrog. Hey, dwarves, go back in there. I did it for you. You're welcome. You're welcome.

Or if Sauron had to use the orcs, have the orcs in there and then come in and fucking kill the orcs. There's so many of them. It's not like he's wiping out an integral part of his army. Or even give them to be like, kill the Balrog. Awesome. Well done, orcs. Form an allegiance with the dwarves.

I feel like that was like done the movie where this guy had like somebody on his side and then like some kind of army or group of people on his side and then killed them to make a point. I don't know what that was. It rings a bell. Anyway, so he could do that. If you want to use the orcs, use the orcs. Don't connect them to yourself. Don't have your fucking red eye painted on there.

That's a bit silly. Just be like, orcs are coming in and fucking shit up. And then, Sauron, you come in, use your powers, destroy the fucking orcs, which would be easy for you because, you know, you created them. It's not hard. They fall down like dominoes. Exactly.

Exactly. Or, again... And then everyone's already on your side because Gondor and Rohan haven't done anything to fuck up the orcs. Exactly. Sauron's on everything. People are going to be lining up to sign up. They're going to have their little Sauron badges and everything. Yeah, exactly. Like, red eye badges.

Vote for Sauron. Vote for Sauron. Or get, like, Saruman to be, you know, he's my buddy again. He's killed those fucking orcs for you. Or if you have to use orcs. And look, if Sauron's got a hard on for orcs, He's just got a massive ass orc. Let's close it.

Some of us do, and that's okay. That's fine. Fine. So if he's like, look, I hear what you're saying, guys, but I kind of want to use orcs. You're like, why? I've already kind of like,

I've got a batch out the back. They're brewing. I've got to use them. Orcs are going to expire. So you're like, okay, fine. He's got to use them. I'm just going to expire. They're like, okay, fine. He's got to use them. Change the public image of orcs. So then you send them out to clean out Moria.

You send them to be like, look, they're a pillar of good. Like, just really change the public perspective on who orcs are, and you just vilify the fuck out of elves. Did you guys ever read Eragon? Yes. No. Yeah, derivative shit. Oh, my God.

It's so good. It's guilty pleasure. It's the plot of Star Wars set in the world of Lord of the Rings. It's written by a 15-year-old. Literally written by a 15-year-old. Rock and roll. It's like this guy is his brother. As a kid, they're the best.

Of course he is. This is dumb. Makes no sense. But one thing he did that I thought was really cool, starting in the second book, because he has, they're called Urgles, and they're basically orcs. They are just orcs.

But I think it was from the second book onwards, there's like a group of them defect and come over to the good side oh yeah and basically there's this there becomes this huge subplot of aragon like spending time with them getting to know their culture learn it turns out that they're like this whole race with like their own culture their own ways their own everything who have just been like because everybody else was against them, it was easy for the evil King to get them on his side. And so everyone kind of realizes the key to winning this is basically get the orcs on our side and stop vilifying them and stop hunting them and killing them for no reason other than we don't like them because they're ugly.

And there's this whole subplot about actually humanizing the orcs, which I mean, come on, that's pretty fucking good. Well, I was- Has that series been finished, by the way? Yeah, yeah. I read the last book. It's something I always thought about, like, the end of Lord of the Rings, right?

End of Lord of the Rings, the orcs have been defeated. Saron, he's fucked off. But, like, surely that's not all the orcs. So what happens to the remaining guys? Well- Like, do they just hunt them down and kill them? Or is there anybody out there being like, what about a re-education program?

I've been thinking this for ages. Okay, so at the end of the Return of the King where the ground opens up and all the orcs fall in, like what? Does that happen under every orc? Yeah, exactly. Do you have one orc running around in Rohan fucking things up in a town

and you have a hole and something? There's one orc making some scrambled eggs in his hut. How much money is Aragorn going to have to put into infrastructure looking at these holes in the ground? These orc holes that have formed bottomless pits and now people's kids are running to have a look

and falling into them and shit. In some areas, they're going to be huge ones. Bottomless pits they have to cover all over Midland. As an entrepreneur, you'd be like, do you have ork holes in your backyard? Do you need that filled up? Well, why don't you call Gary's Ork Filling Services. We'll fill them with gravel as much as we can. Because there's a bottomless pit, but we got you covered.

And if there aren't bottomless pits for every ork, what are you going to do? Are you going to have ork pogroms and go just yeah hunt down the remaining orcs and kill them all like is that like are you gonna genocide the orcs is that is that what we're probably gonna have to because the elves are the beginning of the fourth age is that is that this happy bright new future for middle earth elves are fucked off because they're at least like some moralish compass and so without them it's just sort of sort. Sort of. And without them, dwarves are fucked off as well. Yeah? Or they're still around.

Oh, no, they're around. I don't think the dwarves ever leave Erebor. Yeah. It's just left with racist humans. Because, like, here's the thing. And they were the problem to begin with. Yeah, they're going to kill them all. Things like Aragorn's great, and he's going to die,

as we saw in that flash- sequence in Two Towers and after that it's all fair game again like cause with orcs like which in their evil I guess is you could argue they've been corrupted by Sauron but if they have their own culture and they do clearly have their own culture cause they have their own armour and weapon

and cannibalism but like there's these moments and the goblins as well goblins are basically just orcs goblins are like small orcs and then you've got uruk-hai but uruk-hai are like genetic you've got the big trolls but trolls aren't related to orcs they're just like i know but they're also there except in the hobbit they wear pants yeah and they talk in the hobbit and ogres as well so you've got these monster races which are kind of like all vilified for the very same reason but like hey ogres and orcs get. I feel like if you live in a fantasy universe

and there is a species that is so beyond humanoid, like an orc, not an orc, but like a troll or something like that, you're like, it's best if we just keep them on the fringes because I don't want to have to develop my society around building big doors. I know, but I feel that with an ogre and orc, they could really get the ogres, the goblins on top. But I mean, what about, let's talk about orc intelligence here for a second. Because like, if you watch The Hobbit, you'veres, the goblins on time to be like, hey. Let's talk about orc intelligence here for a second.

Because if you watch The Hobbit, you've got all the goblins who are basically runty orcs. But then you've got the goblin king in The Hobbit who's really erudite and intelligent and has quite a cultured sort of voice and basically is no dumber than any other character.

So what differentiates? Well, here's a theory that I'm pulling out of my butthole. Go on. So imagine that orcs don't exist the same way we as a species do. Orcs aren't like a mammalian species. Orcs are like a bug, like bees. They're like a hive creature.

So the big one, like the king goblin, that's like a queen bee. And he's popping out like little babies all the time out of his orc cloaca little gross orc babies that would make sense because if those they're not being birthed from the earth they're like more like egg sacks yeah so like maybe deep in that you know that scene where it's like the orc mines or whatever it's just this giant fat orc underneath laying eggs into the soil which then rise up and that's how they have to um there was a good gesture i'm imagining they've got like you ever watch walking with dinosaurs where the apatosaurus gives birth and it's got like this

dinosaur birthing tube yeah it's like out of it i imagine this orc's just got one of those just very gross because that also because like there's a there's a significant lack of female orcs right but if you assume that the large orcs are like the equivalent females, it starts to make a lot of sense here. Plus they act very hive-like, the way they run as like a horde. Like they're all on the same wavelength. But also, talking of orc intelligence, right? Because whenever I bring up the fact that orcs,

nobody gives them like a fucking chance, people would be like, oh, they're evil. evil they're evil they don't have like any emotions they've just they just like hate and eat but there are so many scenes in the movie where there's just like orcs chatting just like just like bros like they have like a bit of a laugh with each other you're like that's their friends yeah they have their own little society well because they're pretty aggressive in the doing of that yes they, they are. But hey, that's just how they do. That's how they do. Can't judge.

I would say like a little bit of a hive mind but they also are clearly individual. Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. I got that from I read a fan theory today

that all the humans in Star Wars aren't actually humans. That's just an analogy for us so that we can understand but in reality they're bees

because there are only like two females and every female is like super high up in power and then there's like the force and like the force is like the collective there is females in Star Wars not in the original though

yes there are you look in the background in the battle of Hoth there's a few people doing all the commander-y and who's the lady of Hoth, there's a few people doing all the commander-y. And who's the lady in Return of the Mon Motha? Mon Motha, she's in power as well. She's the queen. Anyway.

Just a stupid theory. But makes more sense with orcs. Yeah, with orcs it makes more sense for them to be a hive species. So I think if Sauron was like, fuck off orcs, or was Mordor like infested with orcs, so he's like, my house is orcs or was Mordor like just infested with orcs so he's like I got an

my house is orcs I got an orc problem yeah they crawl through the fucking walls what do I do with this aww me but you have to

you have to kind of wonder on a certain level like if orcs I actually don't know if Sauron invented orcs or if they if they were like a natural

or if they were a natural thing I know there's a line where Sauron says they used to if they were like a natural thing. I know there's a line where Sauron says they used to be elves but whatever happened to them anyway we used to be apes. Exactly. It seems like Sauron kind of was the only person in Middle-earth to be like, hey look, I'm gonna...

Maybe Sauron is actually the only non-racist entity in Middle-earth. It was never translated into English. I've heard of it. It's the one where it's like Sauron is actually the only non-racist entity in Middle-earth It was never translated into English I've heard of it It's from Sauron's perspective Lord of the Rings from Sauron's perspective I don't think you can find an English translation of it

I'm sure there's somewhere But it's super rare It reverses it Sauron sees this disenfranchised people in the orcs They're not actually orcs,enfranchised people in the orcs and it's actually like they're not actually orcs they're just people that the writer of the lord of the rings like you know um epic things was like they just vilified these people and made them and like dehumanized them

and made them monsters so much oh i know it's a good idea but yeah i mean because again i look at this like again high fantasy kind of stuff um like I used to play World of Warcraft, and the one thing they did really good in that kind of whole mythology of that is that they had like the first two games, Warcraft 1 and 2.2, they were like, okay, the horde, this orcish horde that came through these dark pools and fucked shit up. But then they're like, no, they were just corrupted by this demon. The orcs have this really nice culture, and warcraft 3 and then the games wow the online game wow was like really tried to expand that a lot more and be like no they're like a shamanistic culture and they just got corrupted and they have all these things like they've got all these

different sort of you know big emotions in society and it's a really cool thing that they did with like the horde v the alliance in that kind of regard and it's like yeah why don't why look at that with tolkien and look at that Lord of the Rings? You're like, yeah, these poor orc bastards. But that's kind of the problem with a lot of, well, that I find anyway, with like all of that high fantasy stuff is that your races don't ever get kind of treated as individuals.

It's more like here is dwarves, you know what I mean? The dwarves we get in Tolkien are all pretty much these like stocky little fucks that like to drink and punch and dig. Aren't they a rowdy bunch? Yeah, dig and golden. You don't get any erudite poet dwarves. You don't get any dwarf who's like, maybe what if we lived outside?

You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean like the Dragon Age series. One thing, the guy starts with a V. Varric? I don't know. There's a long plot thread that he's a novelist. Yeah. He writes rom-coms, basically, or romantic novels.

And it's like, oh, that's kind of cool. Didn't even think, of course. Of course they would. Even the hobbits are like... Even the hobbits that are considered different, like Bilbo later, and Frodo at the start of the series where he kind of wants some adventure

and wants to get out and everything. Bilbo just wants to fuck an elf. I'm going to say it. He wants to be an elf. Yeah, well. Hey, they're all right. They're tall. Yeah, why not?

But even those hobbits aren't that different from the hobbit archetype. They still like eating and drinking and lounging about. Which is like, that's like a stereotype. Yeah. Really? Like if you were like a hobbit and you read The Hobbit,

you would be like, that's like if you were like um if you make every single race like you read different nationalities have you read like oh the italians like their pastor and their you know like you know the uh have you read pratchett like terry pratchett's like uh forex yeah yeah is that what it's called yeah it's called uh lost continent lost continent and so it's basically it's called? Yeah, it's called... Lost Continent. Lost Continent. Lost Continent. And so it's basically, it's like, if Discworld, and then it's like, if Discworld had Australia, and you look at this and you're like, it's just stereotypes. I enjoy it for what it was, but it's just clear, it's like... See, that pissed me off at first,

but then I thought about the way that Discworld works, and in the Discworld, what everybody knows is what's true. Yeah. And what everybody knows about Australia is the stereotypes. And it was great. So I was kind of like, oh, yeah, it was great he makes a soup out of beer he makes beer it's great they did cool things with orcs did you ever read unseen academicals it was about soccer but like there's in it there's an orc and it's like in their version of Scandinavia basically somebody was making orcs and it's like

they've taken him into the big city into Ankh-Morpork and they're like training him up to be a gentleman and it's like this cool really interesting take on like uh like an orc and everybody's like talking to the the mayor and they're like you can't what are you doing he's like a beast and they're like he's like no no i'll train him to be a gentleman and he's like all polite so it's cool they did the same thing with um trolls like one of the very first discworld novels i read was thud which is still one of my favorite um uh pratchett novel but it's like kind of like there because trolls are like seeing just these dumb fucking idiots but it's like no no no it's very more like with temperature like if you have like a cold environment they're actually really really smart they just every time they get the

heats up they just become dumb as fuck like the mob boss troll always does his meetings in like a mean reason no wonder no wonder the fucking of course the trolls like in moria deep in like the heat under the ground are dumb and the ones in you know fucking makes so much more door with the fucking like volcanoes of course they're dumb as bricks then you get the ones who like further out the ones they meet in the hobbit who can actually speak exactly and talk and and it's still it's not like super freezing so they're still kind of dumb that makes so much sense but when they're freezing they're the most intelligent

there's this one troll who's like the king of the trolls and he's made entirely of glass so he can reflect the heat and he's just smart as fuck oh god I love it what I love about Terry Pratchett is Terry Pratchett sat out when he was making his fantasy world he's like I remember because I used to love him

I still do he's dead now rest in peace tp tp but uh veil tp but uh i think it was in the art of the disc world which had all of the pictures that this guy did for him and also him reflecting a lot of characters and he talks about how as a kid he read a lot of these fantasy novels and he and he had the same problems with us he's like why are orcs just like what the fuck you know why are trolls stupid and he's like i want to make a fantasy world that works i want to make a fantasy world that is not realistic necessarily ridiculous as um this called it works it works he's like it makes sense these are the things that would develop you know this is stuff like that and it's it's great it's so good love it all so yeah i think if sarah horn

just had a bit of, because he's meant to be a smart man or... Yeah, entity. Entity. Whatever he is, yeah. Lad. Lad. Lad fella.

Because, again, if you take Orcs out of the equation and have his plan as is, it's fine. Yeah. It works. It just works. It just doesn't happen as quick. And also he created what's basically what brings him down which was to combine all the other factions against a common enemy i.e you him that's how much easier would

it have been if he just recruited a handful of humans a handful of elves a handful of dwarves because then suddenly you wouldn't even need hobbits because then the rest of races aren't united against him because then you've got, okay, so one dwarf's like, I think Sauron's a bit shit, but also my brother is kind of really pro-Sauron and now there's a bit of conflict in there. Sauron's plan worked best when he was sowing seeds of discord. He did it in Rohan, he did it in Gondor,

he did it with the fucking dwarves by like... I think there's an element of allowing Thorin to get the Arkenstone to sort of drive him to weaken him. Which is super funny that he's like doing super well with his plan and then he's like, no! A brute force! Um, the orcs will do it.

There's like the germs of a good plan, but by the end of it it's just like, yeah, okay. Kind of falls apart in his hand. Hey, how strong is the elf bathhouse? I'm just wondering if I dropped an olifant in there, would I just sort out elves

real quick? If an olifant just destroyed it? Because it just seemed like it was fancy wood. It did. It's kind of weak as a bunch of those guys. Because it is very other, like them. He's got hell. Why have you just got, like, a bunch of those guys? Because it is very, like, other, like them. He's got, like, the orcs, and he's got the sort of, you know,

Middle Eastern kind of, you know, Persian dark-skinned, them working for him. And it's kind of like, is he the only one that isn't a little bit racist? I think maybe. Is Sauron the hero of Middle-earth? Is this, like, is the Middle-earth, Lord of the Rings, is it basically just the history of Middle-earth is written by the Widow? Well, yeah, the bad guys are Black and Middle-Eastern. And Orcs.

And Orcs. Which are like fantasy Black and Middle-Eastern. All the good guys are really good-looking white people. And look at the elves, man. Fuck, I ain't ever seen a wider race than the elves. It's basically like Europe versus the rest of the world. Yes.

Hmm. So really, interesting ideas. So really, if Sauron just sort of, you can just like, little bits of the Satan whispers here and there. Because the state of Middle-earth at that time was still, as you said, fucking shit.

So if he was just like, yeah, elves, by the way, dwarves and shit. Hey, dwarves, elves are pieces of shit. Just start shit. Just start some like, just race wars. Yeah, why not? And then be like, Mordor, we're fucking multicultural as fuck. We know everything. It wouldn't be a Lord of the Rings if that're fucking multicultural as fuck. We know everything. There wouldn't be a Lord of the Rings if that had been Sauron's plan.

Yeah. A story. Because it would have been done overnight. It would be exactly. It's so easy. They're all so shit and so disconnected. And you are so right when you say, by bringing in the orcs, you gave everyone a common enemy, meaning all these races who didn't even like each other to begin with had to band together.

Exactly. It's like the Dwarves are like, you elfish piece of shit, but you kind of look like me if I was stretched and a bit taller, but that orc looks gross and nothing like me. Let's fuck him up. Exactly. Hobbit said, you're just a skinnier, smaller version of me. You're human, you're like, you know, whatever.

So it's kind of like... The happy middle ground. Was it someone who said, like, in the extended version of Battle of the Five Armies, before the orcs turn up, the elves and and Dwarves actually start killing each other? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, actually begin to kill each other. There's clearly tension between the Elves and the Dwarves. Why would you not capitalize on that?

Because you see that in Lord of the Rings anyway, between Gimli and Legolas. And they do hate each other for a long time only based on race relations the whole point of getting the fucking uh the fellowship together is to try and bridge these racial tensions because they're like come on guys we need to do this for great good and they're like stinking knife here whatever isn't racist as long as you because it's not it's all about bringing different races together as long as i'm not racist European. I'm not racist. Some of my best friends is an elf. That's better than fellowship. It's less like, oh, it's like all the racists. It's like Europe is coming together.

And also the rest of the world is just over there. You write elephants, you fucking creeps will fucking take you down. Elephants are so cool. Oh my god. Because he clearly had good ideas. ideas Plus you know I mean He did have like

Saruman on his side If he just Yeah exactly If Sauron's a fucking moron Like if Sauron was so Bludgeoned down By years of different deaths And different

I mean if he's lived All these different lives And different human forms And everything And now he's just A big burning eye Look I get it that maybe At this point

In his existence He's just like Orcs Orcs But then you've got Saruman He's like, Orcs! Let's go, Orcs! Then you've got Saruman. He's like staring. Orcs! Yeah.

And Saruman is one of like, and like, what is, you know, the whole point is that his eye sees all. He can't even see Frodo when Frodo takes the ring into his realm. His gaze actually lands on Frodo. He kind of looks for a moment,

he's in like, oh yeah. And then people march on the gate. But instead of being like hang on there's a small army at the gate who I'm going to defeat

anyway no problem because you see the comparison between the two armies the orcs outnumbered them like crazy wouldn't your first thing be oh no fuck those guys

we'll deal with them let's sort out Frodo let's sort out Frodo but I think I always interpreted it as the eye and this is actually quite a serious thing too I think the eye of Sauron

by this point he is just a simple entity like too, I think the eye of Sauron, by this point, he is just a simple entity. Like he senses things and his eye just locks on different things. But see, now where this falls apart is the fact that, okay, if Sauron is just this burnt out malevolent force and nothing else, and all his years worth of intelligence and wisdom have all eroded and now all he is, and he needs the ring to return to that form. And at the moment, all he is is this evil spirit

who doesn't really think things through and just throws orcs at things and hopes for the best wouldn't saruman be like okay he's one of the astari he's one of the wisest most intelligent entities in middle earth wouldn't he be like okay there's a better way to do this yeah yeah like saran i mean what's in it for Sauron? Okay, he wants Sauron's power. Fair enough, what's in it for Sauron? He wants Sauron's intelligence. Okay, Sauron, you sit back, let Sauron train up five Grima Wormtongues,

send them off, done. Sort of, absolutely sort of. Because maybe you're right, maybe there's Sauron in his little like late stage. Otherwise he doesn't make sense. Or like all those multiple deaths, maybe he's a little bit senile, just being like,

maybe we just ask him. Yeah, that's a good idea. I'm just trying to imagine the conversations between Sauron and Saruman. And Sauron's like, my lord. Orcs! And Sauron's like, orcs! But I've got this. Own each step with Peloton.

From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Man, Grima Wormtongue,

he has the skill to corrupt the... Orcs! Orcs! And Saruman's like, okay, I'll make some orcs. I'll do the orc one then. That's the plan we're going for. More orcs, master.

Orc! Okay, I'll do that. Just like he's like, so orcs, he suggested that. He's like, there's other right... Orcs! I'll just put the other idea away. Table the Orcs in Orcs!

Okay, okay. Alright, that's fine. Sure, we'll do... We'll do Orcs. Literally anything else would be the better idea of conquering Middle-earth. Anything but Orcs. Anything but Orcs, really. Absolutely. And on that note, I've been Joel. I've been Earth. Anything but orcs. Anything but orcs, really. Absolutely.

And on that note, I've been Joel. I've been Jackson. I've been Gabe. And this episode was suggested to us by our lovely patron, Aidan Murphy. He made us do this topic. And so if you want to make us do a topic, just head to Patreon, donate a bit of coin, and we're legally contracted to do said thing. Yep.

Otherwise, we go to jail. Fact. If you think this show is worth at least a dollar, why not donate to our Patreon account? Follow the links on our website,