Plumbing the Death Star - What Alignment is a Baby? (Feat. Adam)

Episode Date: September 11, 2016

In which our heroes try and figure out right from wrong, try to understand the difference between lawful and chaotic and if some things can be born evil while wondering what alignment is a baby. We look at dragons being jerks from birth, see what can change alignment and realise D&D doesn’t cover mental illness. Adam is our resident expert, Zammit attempts to work out when murder is okay and Jackson just wants to build the perfect utopia. It ranges on the morality spectrum as we work out just how long it takes to gain an alignment in Dungeons and Dragons. Want to help identify who is a jerk and who isn’t? Head to http://www.patreon.com/sanspantsradio and for as little as $1 a month, you can help make a difference in levelling up our alignment detection spells. In Sydney and want to see the Plumbing Boys live? You can purchase your tickets right here https://www.trybooking.com/MQZP.And don’t forget to purchase your copy of Plumbing the Death Star Vol. 1 right now available at https://audiobooksontape.com/shop/plumbing-death-star-bonus/ and check out the subreddit over at reddit.com/r/sanspantsradio. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sandspouts Radio, 70% water. Which I can only assume is where all the rad kids hang out to do kickflips and play Nintendo. Details on where to purchase tickets are in the show notes, and for anyone who's already purchased tickets, you don't have to do a damn thing, except head to the Harlequin, not the othery. It's all ages, so bring your nan. Joel Dusha promised to kiss her on the mouth. He told me so in a hush conversation behind the bike shed during our lunchtime. I swears it.

Anyways, see you then, and enjoy the show. Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of Plumbing the Death Star, where we ask the important questions like, What alignment is a baby? In D&D? Yeah. Unaligned. No, in real life. Yeah, no, unaligned why unaligned because the baby isn't sentient well like not

maybe my people whatever i don't fucking want to get into this like when can you kill a baby or whatever like a baby does not have the men go to good hell or bad hell? Yeah. Where do abortions go, Adam? Where do D&D abortions... Wow. We're like less than a minute and we are here. My God. Are you ready? Yes, we'll be good.

Okay, so... Yeah, like, if you're not smart enough to know the difference between good and evil, then you are unaligned. What if you're like an invalid? What? Like an idiot. Oh, an idiot? Yeah. Well, I guess you'd be unaligned. If you do not know the invalid? What? Like an idiot. Oh, an idiot? Yeah.

Well, I guess you'd be unaligned. If you do not know the difference between good and evil, you do not have an alignment. So an invalid, if they are... Not an invalid. An idiot. An idiot.

If they are to an extent where they don't know, like fucking George from... Of Mice and Men, or whatever it is. Yeah. He would not have an alignment because he does not know

That he is hurting people What if you're a sociopath? Yeah Well Gosh Sociopath So you know that you're doing evil But you just don't care

That would be evil No no no What's the one where you just don't Amoral? No because Even if you don't know Or care What's the difference Between a sociopath and a psychopath?

One knows that they're doing is bad. One just doesn't know the morals, does not understand. Yeah, can't empathize, has no empathy. What if we have no empathy? I just don't understand the fact that what I'm doing is evil. What I'm doing is evil. I just like doing it for me. That's a little hard.

I would imagine... D&D does not cover mental illnesses. I would imagine that would fall under... If they're doing evil, they... Oh, maybe neutral. Oh, yeah. Maybe neutral, I would say. You can make an argument for neutral or evil.

Depending if they're climbing up the ladder in some business and they're like, I'm going to pretend that person raped me so I can get his spot. Yeah. That would be evil, but the person might be neutral. Okay. The end is spooky. But we're the baby. You hear some

messed up stuff in the alignment. Here's me giving, you thought Adam, we're going to make you cry. Here's me giving you guys some messed up stuff. Okay. So in the monster manual, you can see always, at the end of the alignment manual, you can see always, under the alignment section,

it says either always such and such alignment or usually such and such alignment. If it says usually, that often means that the creature can vary, like it has some wriggle room, and it often means that as a child, it doesn't know. So a human would be sometimes sometimes because you're not born with an alignment dragons for example are like always this alignment so there is never any wriggle room with some very extraneous like i you know fucking what do you call it circumstances

yeah barring some very extraneous circumstances. But dragon comes out of the... dragon's like oh, they're eggs, so whatever. Dragon is hatched. Cracked out of the egg. Dragon's cracked and it's like hey, I'm chaotic evil. That's not right. They are born intelligent and born chaotic evil. That's not on. Nobody's evil on purpose. And several times in low level

adventure... I did this fucked up adventure once where I was running it and the adventurers like found this baby dragon and they uh had to capture it as part of a thing so they capture the baby dragon and they're taking it away and one of the adventurers is like hey you know i know a little bit about you know dragons and stuff like that i know that this thing has a human level intelligence we have captured what is basically a human and we are taking them

because someone else was like, I want that as a pet. Yeah, yeah. We are selling a living creature into slavery. And someone else was like, no, it's okay. It's chaotic evil. And he's like,

how does that make what? How, what is going on? That is fucked up, my friends. Yeah, that is fucked up Because that just means if you are born chaotic evil Does that mean you are lower class? I wouldn't say it's I'm not saying an evil person is lower class

But here, this person is like We can sell it I can justify doing bad You can sell a person I'm justifying doing bad things to something Because it is evil Yeah, that's a little fucked up And in that game, when they were like that

I'm like, yeah yeah good point you guys all lose some alignment there mate yeah like it's fair enough but also like it's justified like really it's it's an argument yeah in the land of dnd you have spells the land of dnd in the world yeah whatever in the rule you have spells which detect alignment. So you can check if somebody's evil or not. So if I ran a village, welcome to, you know, Borgleberry, USA. Borgleberry, USA. I could round up everyone in my town and be like, all right, wizard. First cast it on yourself.

Free that works. I've got a backup wizard over here. Some odd reverse series of Salem witch trials going on. But assuming that worked in my favor. How can you cast detect evil? What can detect alignment what do you need to be you don't need to be in alignment

what do I have to do to cast that spell or scroll or whatever let's find out because then if I was that as the mayor then I don't need that wizard but then what if i cast

it on myself but it's like evil like and everyone's like hold on like shit no but what i'm saying i'm evil i'll lie exactly turned out lawful good lawful good me but i could round up everyone in town and assuming my wizard was good he could cast it and everybody that was bad i'm like shoot him in the head with a gun but wouldn't that make you then wouldn't that then make you evil well that's okay i'm in charge that's an arguable thing like if say for example his town is like someone's killing people at night well actually killing every evil person because maybe one guy's going around it's like some you need more problems with my town If he's like Just taking his town and is like doing that

Yeah kind of evil But like maybe there's more circumstances Yeah for the greater good I love a town of good people I've always thought because you know paladins I know they're very stipulated to be They have to be lawfully good But if they detect someone who's evil

Isn't it like a lot of people I know a lot of people don't like playing paladins or like having paladins in their parties because of that reason if they detect evil they'll have to attack and fight it yes um some people like some people would argue that lawful good is like that and that's where i think the indie kind of like fixes that alignment problem where like you can be lawful good, but there's a lot of different interpretations. And any good like dungeon master will be like, yeah, I can understand how that might fall as a lawful good action. Mitigating circumstances. Yeah.

Because it's kind of like the idea of someone, the paladin, he goes to like, say, a barkeep. He's like, hmm, detect alignment. It's like chaotic evil aha just stabs him isn't that a chaotic or isn't that an evil act of killing someone no but it's a righteous murder righteous it i guess it depends like for example that's so wrong you could play lawful good where you're like every evil thing you detect you destroy or you could play lawful good as like i have to wait until he does something evil could you play law you destroy. Or you could play Lawful Good as like, I have to wait until he does something evil. Could you play Lawful Good in that you have a wagon of prisons?

Like a wagon train and every person you detect is lawful evil. No, just evil of any kind. You chuck them in a prison. The best way to define lawful as an alignment is that you have an exterior code of laws, not something that you keep inside, like something you can put in a book or on paper that you follow. So no animals are lawful?

No. Animals, I think, pretty much exclusively are neutral. Okay. So in Jackson's... Town of Bunglebury. Bunglebury, USA. I think the name changed, but okay. Bumblebro?

I don't know. So if you're like, okay, I am law am lawfully good yeah and i need to make my town good so i'm gonna be like if you have a law if you are evil yeah of alignment you're exiled or imprisoned or killed killed actually killing all evil creature or killing all evil people maybe not so much evil as it is more neutral because it's like looking out for yourself but it's looking out for yourself or looking out for yourself and your people but it's doing it in a very ambiguous way what about this if my alignment changes i shoot myself perfect town i think that i don't think that makes you

good or evil i think that makes you lawful you're going to make me dead Yeah it makes you dead I guess The law of that town of Bumblebury USA is If you are any kind of evil What state is it in? Iowa Iowa is a town isn't it? Iowa is a state

Because Ralph dresses as Iowa What's neutral? What happens to neutral? What's neutral? There's no detect neutral spell. All right. But what if I use detect evil and then detect good and they detect as neither? That'd be probably some form of neutral then.

All right. What's your laws on neutrality? How do I change someone's alignment to good? There are a couple of different ways. The most popular way is with a spell called atonement but with the atonement spell they have to be willing so you have to be like hey i need you to be good and it's going to be super funny as well because like part of the atonement spell is like uh it gets cast and uh the person who's casting it is like usually gives them like some

sort of quest relating to what so if you're trying to make them good that maybe a cleric's like hey there's a dragon who's kidnapping folks yeah gotta go kill that dragon or something or stop the dragon whatever you know yeah so something related to that alignment so like there's this mass exodus of your people going out to your quest exactly then they come back and have a good time or how about this i'm like okay you you're neutral. And they're like, yes. And I'm like, do you want to be good? And if they say no, I'm like, evil, kill them. Okay. That's messed up on several levels. I'm just trying to work out the laws of this town.

Yeah. So, okay. So then you're like, all right, if you are evil, we can make you good. Lawful or chaotic. We can make you good. And if or chaotic. We can make you good. And if you don't... Shoot you in the head. Shoot you in the head.

Right? Bullets in the brain. I would like to remind everyone this is Jackson's scenario. I was going to be exile, but no, no. Exile sounds a little nicer. Then they come back. They form and they come together. They come back.

Okay. So they're evil. They can be atoned. And they have to want to because they're going to have to want to. There's a way to force someone to do that. But I feel if you're casting that one that's like forces an alignment shift,

I feel that's kind of evil. It is kind of evil, but really the options are you either convert or you're put to sword. In Jackson's specific scenario, I would admit, yes, that forcing an alignment change is maybe better than killing them. So we've got that as a scenario. If you are neutral, it's just your laws that you have in the town.

Jackson, you've got to kill yourself. You know this. I know. At the end I'm like, good town. You're like fucking what's-his-name from the Firefly movie. He's like, I know I'm a monster. I'm not going to live in this perfect world I'm creating. Or could you then use the atonement on yourself and become good again?

No, but then I'd be like, what have I done? And then maybe you kill yourself anyway. Exactly. All right. So either way. So he's created this town of good people Yeah absolute Objectively good Human beings Through the most messed up

They'd over No they'd overthrow you You're good They're not going to let you do this That's awful Your own people rise up because you made them No but here's what happens I line everyone up in town

50 odd people Let's say 100 And one by one I'm like Evil, neutral, good If they're evil they go in one pile Not a pile, one group Not a pile, they go in one pile. Not a pile. One group. Neutral in another group. Not a pile yet.

Evil in another group. Yeah. Okay. Then I go over to the evil people, shoot them all in the head. Just let's cover our bases. Okay. Go over to the neutral people. Is anyone else getting strong Nazi Germany vibes right now?

A little bit. But they're objectively evil. They're not good. He said from his podium. How am I arguing against this? Then I go to the neutral people. You're basically like, we should drown the evil people like puppies because they're just bad for us. They are.

They're bad. They're objectively bad. Then I go to the neutral people and I say, I can atone you with the spell atonement from my wizard. Can't you atone the evil people? You can. I don't want to risk it. I don't want too many people going away. Okay? And then I

say to the neutral people, I can atone you or you'll die. Go do this quest together. We all go kill a dragon together as a mass. Okay. While that's happening, I say, hey, good people. How great is this town that we've got? It's perfect.

They don't overthrow me just yet. Then when they come back good, I shoot myself. No one to overthrow. Perfect town. You know what's kind of scary? It's the perfect plan. No. But this exact scenario has been done in one of the Dungeons & Dragons books,

and I've just remembered it. There's this clerical order who have your idea, essentially. That's the best. We're going to make a better world, and we're going to fuck ourselves. We're going to kill ourselves doing it, but we're going to make a better world. Well, I would have the ultimate town in the end. Is it like on the Nazi train? Choo-choo.

Choo-fucking-choo. Interesting turn of phrase there. Oh, boy. This episode started with abortion. We are having a trip today. So, good alignment, evil alignment alignment neutral.

Is it like eugenics? If I got two good people, could we have a good child? Well, you'd raise the child good, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's... How much like Nazism can we make this village? I guess it's like the... I don't think any individual D&D world or anything like that has the rule when you breed to make the same alignment.

But a baby, because that's the question. Alignment as a baby, which we just knocked out in 10 seconds. But at what point does a baby get an alignment? I guess it depends from person to person, I would argue. All right, so let's pull back to your coming of age. Like with teens? Is it like puberty? What's the drinking age?

I don't know I have another idea I'll make Bumble Fork over here I think it depends from person to person Because no human being is like Oh, I turned 14 the other day Guess what? I learnt good and evil

Alright, how's this for an idea? So we live in Bumble Bumble Fork, Arizona We come from Idaho This is a new town How's this for an idea? So we live in Bumble... Bumblefork, Arizona. We come from Idaho. This is a new town, Bumblefork. So we've come from Jackson's... We come from Jackson's town. He's being like...

He's doing this thing where he's like, you know, evil people, good people, neutral people. I like quickly, while he's off there talking to the neutral, I get the good people. All right, we need to fuck off. We need to get out of here. So I get all the good people, or as many as I can. We form our own tribe, our own village in Bumblefork. And I'm like, okay, look, Jackson was insane, but he had some good ideas.

That's right. Overthrown at that level. And they're like, well, he did. We like being good. Evil people are bad, right? Let's just establish evil is bad, correct? Sure. Good people good, bad people, evil people the bad right let's just establish evil is bad correct sure good people good bad people evil people bad yeah yeah two legs good right um so we're like okay we're gonna start good we're not gonna kill anyone we're gonna start good and so we're gonna only

accept good people into this village we're gonna have this like we're gonna wall it off people come in we do an alignment check. They're like, oh, he's good. Come on in. That's great. We're like, oh, he's bad. Fuck off. Okay.

So we're going to have this village. You're going to live your life. You're going to have children. Okay. And then when they turn of age, we're going to have an alignment ceremony. If they're good, they stay. If they're evil or neutral, exile.

What influences that? Influences what? Whether they come out good or evil. I guess it's like nurture, I would imagine. So I reckon you just end up with a lot of good kids. So we have the alignment ceremony if they're evil. I don't know about that. I don't know if good nurturing always produces good children. As may I do, I have to

kill myself because I think that is a little bit better than Jackson's dictatorship. I don't think it's like... I think you could maintain a good alignment and do something like that. If you're not killing people, if you're just sending them away, that's not... Well, the kid thing is a little messed up. But if you're like... I think all you need to do is,

when you're doing that alignment checking ceremony, if they're evil like evil and they're like no i'm happy being evil so long as you like didn't kill them when you sent them away like you were like here's some supplies kind of like 300 sending off the king to fight a wolf that's not nothing that extreme if you like gave them supplies and like let them out so that you knew that they would make it on their own for a little bit at least is it Mormons that they have that rumspringer? yeah rumspringer you mean the Amish?

go off for 7 years or whatever it is 7 years? 1 year rumspringer is a ceremony that the Amish or Amish people have where when you come of age you get 1 year to go away and not be Amish for a year and if you think that's the bomb diggity you don't have to be Amish people have where when you come of age you get one year to go away and not be Amish for a year and if you think that's the bomb diggity

you don't have to be Amish but if you but if you come back Amish for life pretty much they chain you up yeah so kind of like that

in a way so it's like yeah if you you're exiled we just want a town of good what happens then could Zahmet influence their alignment change

sorry could Zahmet influence their alignment change with nurturing and love? I give the people in Zarmut's town who are heroes how to be good. So how about this? We have the alignment chain, the heart alignment ceremony. They're good. Everything's fantastic.

They're evil or neutral. We have a year to change that. And if they're still evil by the end, shoot them in the head. Oh, God. That's like, I think that's not a perfect community but i think that's a good way of going about it i mean like my community is all good yours has dissidents but like mine has no diss and you're just overthrown it might be some not like some

of the good people in your community might be like no we should accept everyone or something like that but so long as you were able to, like, I say control that. I mean, like, you know, if the majority was always like, let's keep doing this. To be like, well, because what, if somebody is chaotic evil, lawful evil, neutral evil, what necessarily, like, what is the evil that they're doing?

How is they, how are they evil? Because I'm a man who's all about shades of gray. What is... I know. I know you know. No one could see, but I winked at him. What does evil mean in this sort of world? I can give me a tick.

I will look up the alignment section. Good. Because it's always bothered me as well because in reality, it's grey. The land of being is a great time yeah exactly use that quote if you like the action the heading for this section is good versus evil this is describing good versus all right here we go good character good characters and creatures protect innocent life evil characters and creatures thease or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or for profit.

Good, and that is in quotation marks, implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. Evil, in quotation marks, implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others And kill without qualms if doing so is convenient Others actively pursue evil Killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master People who are neutral with respect to good and evil

have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. A neutral person may sacrifice himself to protect his family

or even his homeland but he would not do so for strangers who are not related to him okay being good or evil can be a conscious choice as with the paladin who attempts to live up to his or her ideals or with the evil cleric who causes pain and terror to emulate his god i could keep going okay just the same thing so what is the like if you have a if you have a village and we're all just good because of like

my way of doing things or my better way of doing things your way is my way gets it done so quick Sam yours is like a year long plan thank you

mine's like you give birth to a kid mine is sustainable mine's sustainable no it's not you give birth to a child that child grows up I'm like what alignment are you he's like no No, it's not. You give birth to a child. That child grows up. I'm like, what alignment are you? He's like, no, evil. I'm like, that's a shame.

Bullet to the head. I, Eat Lad, prefer Joel's idea, but I kind of want to live in Jackson's idea. Because I kind of know a little better than I'm safe. Yeah, right? You're sending out your evil

people into the wilderness who are going to form a coalition and come back and burn you to the ground. In Jackson's one, I just want to be a farmer who doesn't think about the world. In your one, I'm happy to be an active member of society. But see, now, listening to what you just said then, I kind of think maybe I need neutral people instead. Because good people would prevent you

from killing innocent lives like that. Exactly, whereas neutral people might get an idea. So how do I make people neutral, Adam? You can do that with atonement as well. Okay, so let's say we have three hypothetical villages here. We have a good village. Does this mean I have to take the evil village? No, no, no.

Maybe. Because I'm down for that. My one's easy. A good village, an evil village, and a neutral village. The evil village is not going to be sustainable in long term. Everyone's going to be out for themselves. They're going to kill each other. There are some examples.

Drow is an evil society. Drow society is evil pretty much entirely. Just entirely. The way they work it is, drow don't care about an individual person. For drow, it's the community. So, for example, if I'm trying to get to some station above mine,

I would be happy to kill to do that because anyone who is weak enough to die to me, I should have their spot. And that, in some ways, does create a stronger society. I would be happy to kill to do that because anyone who is weak enough to die to me, I should have their spot. And that, in some ways, does create a stronger society. I guess so. Scarily enough. So like a survival of the fittest. Yeah, and that's sort of the society that you live in.

Okay, because I would say the neutral village would probably be the better village. You can argue about this stuff day and night. That's what we're doing. That's the point of a show oh no so like an evil village i would say that because everyone is selfish everyone is looking out for themselves and in a sense they're going to just kill themselves off in a neutral village um well it's gonna be we'll skip. So in the good village, everyone is being too altruistic,

so nothing kind of gets done? No. I wouldn't say that. I'd say a lot of stuff gets done. Everybody just loves each other and builds a sick town. So it becomes more of a utopia. Yeah.

And then the neutral village is just like a whatever village who gives a shit. And the neutral village, what happens? Nothing. I guess so. You could make arguments for any of them. Hey, Adam.

I mean, what happens if I cast Atonement on like a mule? I don't think you can do it on an unaligned creature. Damn, that's a shame. I thought you said they were all neutral. Oh, actually, yeah. If I was like, hey, mule. So far it was a mule who was neutral.

Oh, no, you've got to put the mule on a quest and the mule has to be willing. Unless you did the forceful version of it, when I guess you'd make an evil mule. No, make a lawful good that's the best which which would fall into do you remember earlier we're talking about like someone who doesn't have empathy doesn't understand like good that's what you're making you're making people like that except you can make a good version of it i want to do that Or a lawful and chaotic version of it I want to be like

I want a chaotic Like a chaotic good mule That's amazing because then he'd see someone committing like Theft and just go up and trample I don't know about Donkey wouldn't understand what the theft was But it was lawful I guess Donkey would have some level of intelligence

I know he wasn't lawful I said chaotic it wouldn't be lawful But yeah like a lawful evil character guess donkey would have some level of intelligence. Huh? I said chaotic. It wouldn't be lawful, but yeah, like a lawful, evil character, evil donkey mule. Like my friend's dog.

If you're like, um, having an argument in the house, the dog will like jump up and bark and like try to stop the argument. I guess that's what you're making. Oh, that's sick. Atonement is a dangerous spell.

Forceful atonement. I forget what it's got some name. I think it's baneful atonement or something like that. That's amazing. Stress, because like, can you... What if you're like a humble baker? You're a good baker. I come from, you know...

A long line of good aligned... I come from Bumblefork, where we're like, no, we've bred our people good. Well, Superman breeds his people sorry go on no no i'm good to line though adam it's not well aligned true actually you're right superman does well superman breeds his people well so so we've bred them well they're good um yeah then someone what if someone comes in we've oh can you mask being the alignment can you be like if someone's like yeah there's a spell my town is fucked fun uh yeah there's a spell that masks your alignment there's a couple different spells that do that also fun thing the well you'll know if

people do this but the that spell can't penetrate i think it's uh an inch of like steel or stone or a thin sheet of lead so if you were wearing like lead like complete body suit go on take it off we know it's lead get it out get naked no here's another fun little alignment story i have for you i was running another game where they had a paladin and the paladin was like because paladins get detect evil for free and he was like detect evil detect like every time they'd meet someone he'd detect evil on them and there was one neutral chaotic neutral character who every time the paladin detected evil he had a sheet of lead that he would hold up and he thought it was so fucking funny like haha it

looks super sus doesn't it he did that a couple times and then the paladin turns around and kills him and he's like it's it's super sus and the guy's like no no it's a joke he's like nope i don't trust you i'm killing you that's the even so then if he isn't that act of killing someone because you're sus of him isn't that a evil act it was also a bit of a cunt as a character like i'm leaving out a lot of dumb shit that he did but even still wouldn't that as a paladin how do you i guess i guess i gotta have their own little moral codes but to me that seems so arbitrarily inherently evil you well because you're killing someone on a suspicion not a confirmed suspicion but on a suspicion that is a good point, yeah. But you could like say,

like there's some leeway, like you can do something that's evil or something like that and still kind of keep your alignment. Because how does it... As long as you don't, you know, stray too far. Because in our society, at least...

Some DMs, like you, for example, might be like evil, straight off. So some, in our society, so we have pretty basically, thou shalt not kill. Like if you kill, you're evil, generally. So some, in our society, so we have pretty basically, thou shall not kill. Like if you kill, you're evil, generally. So how does a good character kill? They kill when they need to.

Like a police officer. Kill to save a life. Yeah, like what you gotta remember is that it's not like a modern society. Like D&D was set in a modern society, you wouldn't be like, oh, I've detected evil on him, shoot him in the head. Like I might, but like... Your basic elf wouldn't. But oh i've detected evil on him shoot him in the head like i might but like your basic elf wouldn't but because in a medieval society you you would just like ice a lad because you were sus of his biz you know what i mean um you could be up to something and you would never know that's why you kill everyone in your town all right so basically

going back so say our town we've you, we've done well, everyone's good. Someone comes in, they've hidden their alignment by changing it to good or like making it appear good. Because that's a thing that can happen. Yeah, lower level versions of the spell are like, you can't detect the alignment. Upper versions of the spell are like, hey, I'm this alignment. Yeah, so they're like, hey, we're great, we're good. They come in with their tome of fucking forceful atonement change.

This is a very difficult and rare spell I would like to remind you guys. Comes in and just like, to my humble baker, who's being like, he's the best he can do, he's doing well. And then they just change him to his evil. What happens to that person? Do they know they've been changed?

They would probably know. Murder is so super good. what happens to that person what do they know they've been changed do it's just like they would probably know murder is so super good I'm gonna put poison in this bread I'm gonna take a shit in this egg roll that's where role playing comes into Dungeons and Dragons so the person could try to get back to being good like they could miss being good

or you could say the character's like no I think I prefer my life this way or somewhere in the middle if so can you choose Being good? Or you could say the character's like, no, I think I prefer my life this way. Or somewhere in the middle. All right, but what if they, if so, can you choose, is it, you're good, I'm going to change you to evil. Or it can be, you're good, or you're lawful good, I'm going to change you to chaotic evil. Can you choose where it is? Yeah, you can, yeah, you can do that, yes. So you could be like, you're lawfully good, I'm going to change you to chaotic evil.

And then, wouldn't their actions then be reflected of their alignment? Yeah, if they're role-playing, if they're doing a good job of role-playing, they could still want to become good again, but they would maybe go about that in a chaotic evil way. Okay. So if you're fighting a paladin, and he's going to scrawl down at you, and you're like a paladin and he's gonna like run down at you and you're like alignment change uh i think the spell takes like 10 minutes to cast so i don't know if you'd be

able to get it off just run and do it as you're running with your like wand over your shoulder your stuff over your shoulder being like you were able to do it like as a spell like that and the paladin failed his will save yada yada. And you forced his alignment to change. Okay. A paladin who is. There's two of you. Oh, what? There's two of you.

Like not two of people. I'm not duplicating. There's just two people, right? Yeah. Me and Jack, you're a paladin, right? I'm like distracting you with my like, I'm a fighter or some shit. I'm like, you know, poking you with sticks. Yeah. And then.

Oh yeah. I'm just jumping to the part where you changed my alignment. The wizard over here is like going into his little wizard spells spells and he's like changing your alignment you don't know yeah and i'm like holding you at my own for like 10 minutes and then you change your line we can you don't need to create the scenario i'm happy to imagine no it happened okay fine yes keep going all right good so we're fighting he's over there Jack's over there casting his little alignment spell what was the spell again sorry I didn't hear that that's how it works

that's how it works it's a fact alright 10 minutes is up we're all like I'm like okay huffing and puffing 10 minutes is up you're like I'm a paladin I'm so righteous a paladin whose alignment changes drastically like that,

they... Explodes? No. So imagine, well, basically their god pulls their support. So the paladin is still fine with a sword because that's not dependent on his god, but he can't cast spells, he can't heal people, he can't smite evil that god's

a cut it's a gorgeous like dumb and easily tricked the god's like oh he's evil now for some reason they don't really like 100 explain it in dnd like because once again it's like a holdover from like we need rules and like a grid sort of system i i would maybe argue that you could think of it as in dnd gods are not omniscient and on like a god isn't forever and infinite yeah so the gods might be like hey i'll i can see your alignment but i can't see into your mind necessarily or i can't handle seeing everyone's mind so just the people of the right alignment i'll do that or is it something like and then they've got a connection to their god and if you kind of change it it's because if you if it's almost like a doorway that you kind of mean and so it's like i only let people of lawful

good yeah yeah yeah this door at a moment that change changes that door is shut could you intercept that god magic yeah that's awesome there's a type of class called you are dash priests i think it's pronounced priest or something like that and they get all of the magic by intercepting so like a cleric sits down and he's like please god give me these spells today and the ear priest is like yo does that priest be like why does god hate yeah that priest doesn't get the spell that's amazing that's good i think one of their abilities or something like that when they get later on in levels is like they can make their alignment whatever they want because you know it's part of the thing or something like that that's so from memory i forget that i could look it up but we're not gonna so that just seems kind of very like a god being fuck you to the paladin What if a paladin is fighting another paladin?

And they pray to the same god? And they fight each other I don't know why they would fight each other Say like, okay, well Bumblefork and Bumblebur over there, right? And they come together and they're fighting Because of some reason as the mayor of Bumblefork I'm like we've got to get rid of those bumble boars

and he's being like and I'm like as the mayor of Bumbleberry I'm like they keep pronouncing our name wrong go massacre them then come back so I can shoot you and another paladin would fight because you'd be evil two paladins fighting I can shoot you in the head. I don't know if a paladin would fight because you'd be evil.

Two paladins fighting. Because we're both lawfully good, we're praying to the same god. Well, a DM... The god's not paying attention. He's just like, fucking have it. A dungeon master, yeah, it's up to the dungeon master. A dungeon master might be like,

nah, god sides with this person, so other person loses their powers. That's too funny. It's nothing like Bumblebee. Or the god might be like what I was saying before where they're just like hey I'll give you all like powers

so long as you're right in alignment blah blah blah that'd be one way to end a fight if two paladins and like it's like

I use smite blah but you can't what? your God is choosing him oh nah then he's right

I side with him straight away they wouldn't be able to use smite period anyway like a paladin gets smite good and so a paladin knows't be able to use smite period anyway like a paladin gets smite good and so a paladin

knows that he can't use smite again sorry smite evil not smite smite evil smite evil smite evil but in 3.5

there are annoyingly but they exist in 3.5 and in 5th ed you can just be whatever alignment you are and in 3.5

there's like a lot of variance so you can be like a chaotic good paladin because people hated the restriction so wizards were like hey whatever just fuck i don't care oh my god all right you could have done this yourself why are you making us doing getting back to the dragon so what's like an evil dragon black dragons yeah uh yeah if it's like a base color, like black, blue, green, that's usually evil. Metallic colors are good.

And then there's a lot of different dragons. So if I come across a hatchet egg, and out pops a black dragon, what's the evilest of dragons? Well, depends if you consider lore, chaos, or neutrality the most evil. Chaos. Chaos?

Probably wouldn't want to see a black dragon, yeah. I thought you were going to say wooden dragon. Who did I? We're like, whoa. All right. So say, for example, there's an abandoned egg that's black. Spooky. Spooky.

And it just cracks and it's open there. As a lawfully good character, and I stumble upon it, is it in? Am I morally and legally obligated to grab that black dragon and drown it in a well uh i would like to remind you uh dragons when they hatch like a horse when they hatch from the egg they're like good i can breathe fire i can cast spells i got claws so you're gonna roll the egg off a cliff you They're like, good to go. You're not going to drown it unless it's struggling. I'm a paladin.

Yeah, anyway. So there we have powers. So, but then, or if I'm, if I'm, say, the humble baker again, if I come across it and just see, oh shit, there's a black dragon about to hatch, is am I morally and legally obligated to go and find someone to take care of that black dragon?

Because I know that that's going to cause so much damage to wherever it's going on. I would i would say like if you saw a black dragon hatch and you like near a town or a village or like any place where you know it could cause havoc and you did not tell those people i would say that is not a good thing you'd have to alert the local i would say yes you should inform the local authorities if nothing nothing else, then so they can prepare themselves. Not so much even that they need to go kill it, just so much that they're not going to be surprised by a fucking dragon. See, what I don't understand why this doesn't happen in these fantasy worlds

is you have black dragons, inherently evil. There's no way you're changing that. Why is there not groups of people who go out and just crush the nests, destroy the breeding populations fucking uh how do you make an animal baron isn't that a thing neuter it yeah neuter all the black dragons because i i he wanted neuter a black dragon jackson it's not an easy prospect just wait till it's sleeping and hack its cock off um from memory there are like cults that do that in a couple of different D&D settings. But it seems like as a society. It's very hard.

Dragons protect their eggs. Well, most dragons protect their eggs. Not even as a cult thing, as a societal thing. As someone who is building a town or... A dragon could take a town. Like a baby dragon could probably take a town. It's not something like the general farm folk do. I guess that's the problem is that dragons are such a big deal.

Yeah. Such a hassle that it's like almost who can be bothered. Adventurers might go around and do that, but it's not... Simple, humble baker. Yeah, he's not going to... He could not take a hatch to dragon. Fair enough. Are there any other creatures that are born chaotic evil?

Plenty of different types. I could go through the monster manual. I might have to what's one a baker could kill? maybe a, actually I don't know what cobalts are, cobalts better not be they're just like little lads

that's not fair they're invalids, we're talking about idiots, that's a fucking cobalt can you cast atonement on like a usually, okay so they're not born evil, okay so somebody has to make Talking about idiots, that's a fucking cobbled toy. Can you cast atonement on like a... Usually. Okay, so they're not born evil. Okay, so somebody has to make them evil. Theoretically, I could kidnap a cobbled and be like, I'm going to raise him good.

Yeah, good. Sweet. Oh, that's awesome. I want to see like a person who's... Krakens aren't usually... Krakens are usually evil, just letting you know. Good kraken. That's the best. But how good is the idea of like a finishing school for cobbles? are usually evil. Just letting you know. Good cracking. But how good is the idea of like a finishing school

for cobbles? Run by like these matronly like nuns and stuff. We'll just try and find Jackson's favorite one. Sorry. The rain in Spain falls plainly on the plane.

Again! Kotoa, often. Kotoa are the best. Their society tends towards evil. You have Krakatoa. What's a Kotoa? Kotoa are like fish people. They're like little fish men being like, yeah.

Their society tends towards evil, but like... They can be good? Yeah. You don't even need to take one away to a boarding school. Drow from memory are usually... Which ones do I have to take... Can I not take away to a boarding school? I'm pretty sure demons, like straight off, don't bother. Yeah, it's not worth my time.

A humble baker can't kill a baby demon. Give me something like a hyena or something. Like a hyena pup, I reckon a humble baker could kill. Hyena pup isn't evil. Any animal is not going to be. The problem is, animals are always for low levels, and animals are pretty much always neutral or whatever. I'm saying this is anything that's not just neutral.

I'm trying to find it, okay? I don't remember this often. That a baker can strangle in his bare hands for the good of the people. What's making, like, say, the drow society's design around that? What's making, like, the Kootoaow, oh no, drow society is designed around that. What's making, like, the Kaua Toa evil? They're just fishmen and women. Like, just their society, I guess. I could go back to Kaua Toa and read you their society.

It's fine, Adam. Move on. Fuck, I'm an idiot. We know. Shut up. I forgot drow aren't under deed, they're under elves. It just seems to me that if you have a society that is... You live in a world where objective evil exists. Because we don't.

Usually. Drown. So a drow boarding school is good to turn them. It's good to go. Good to go. Let's do it. Approved. Drow.

We have so many finishing schools. No, just the one. Imagine them all in finishing Finishing school like dresses Yeah yeah yeah It's amazing Yeah a fish man and a little outish boy A vargoyle A vargoyle

Some sort of outsider Oh yeah so it comes A vargoyle is like a let's have a look imagine a cat's head with wings it's got a green mouth and then you've got like the back half of a carp and just

without the head and just slammed it onto the back of the cat head and then given it bat wings that's basically what we're looking at so they're evil outsiders. They come from a plane. Here's a fun one for you. There are planes of existence where it's like this plane of existence itself is evil.

What? Just the energy of the plane is evil. Imagine spiritualism. Auras and feng shui. You're telling me? The air is evil, you're telling me? The air is evil, yes. The feng shui is evil. So, I could theoretically...

This creature comes from a plane of existence that is inherently evil. Has anybody invented in D&D? Uh-huh. Plane bombs. So, imagine this. You're like, fuck this city in particular.

I've invented a grenade that when exploded pops open a portal to the other dimension. Then you just hurl it into wherever you want. Evil air everywhere. Yeah. Basically, I was about to say, I thought you were just going to hurl it into the plane. But yeah, you're right.

No. One plane cannot come into another plane you can make a portal where you can travel between like a person could but you can't I can't make a hole

yeah you can't make a portal come into another place thankfully because otherwise like if the plane of water and the plane of fire met fuck

I need no steam so I couldn't bring anything from another plane into this world well you could bring like a creature sorry Sorry, you keep talking. What if I got that same bomb and put

that forced atonement spell into that bomb? I don't think you can force atone a plane. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, okay. Like a bomb. Like a forced atonement bomb. Forced atonement bomb. And hurled it into a group like a church. Made everyone evil. Made them evil.

And made everyone evil. Well, I don't think you... Like, you asked me, Adam, what would happen. I think you know what would happen. I think you just want to see me cry. Is it possible? Can it be done? Like, I guess a DM could allow such a thing to exist.

Yes. How does it make a bad DM? I guess a terrible trash DM might allow such a travesty? Yes. I would say it would be a very evil thing to do. Yes, because you can make spell bombs.

From what Jackson is telling me, you can make spell bombs. Well. Well. What if there was a nursery? All right. Actually. No, wait.

Yo, a baby. The question we started with, when is a baby? What's the alarm of a baby? What if I force aligned a baby to be evil? From birth. You can't force align something that is unaligned. I thought you said that before. Damn.

You just make the baby kill a dog and then do it. I wouldn't know. What if I told the baby, like, baby, this is evil, then make him do it. I don't think the baby, like, even if you said this is evil, I don't think it would understand. I don't even know how we were going to make a baby kill a dog. Wait. What if I got a spell of intelligence? Or like a thing to increase intelligence. Awaken, yeah.

Awaken on a baby. Like this is just because... Throw bullshit ideas at Adam and see what sticks. Awaken on a baby. Then like Buffy's intelligence or her intelligence. And then make it kill a dog. And then... See, because in...

I think the spell awaken can only be cast on certain things. I think it needs to be cast on something that isn't intelligent, but I guess you could say a baby isn't intelligent. Oh, my God. Hang on. So, yeah, buff it. So, yeah, Awaken on a baby, make it more intelligent, because you can have buffs and shit that make it more intelligent, yeah? Like a scroll of intelligence.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would it then have an alignment? You could force one on it, yeah. Because it would... Not just enforce it, because then if it's it's awakened, would it then have to choose? No, it's based on its upbringing and its actions. So the first time that your child does a thing, because you are in life presented with moral dilemmas all the time, the first moral dilemma

I guess the kid gets to choose, unless you force it on him. I'm thinking more about portals because i know there's a plane of water and if they don't come through right that means i could make like a sick swimming pool yeah out of like a portal that's pretty good big fire cook something on it that's pretty damn sick use it as a bin oh my shit into the plane of flames or whatever the fuck it's called uh no awaken uh yeah only works on trees or animals so you can't but that means i can make my mule understand that it's evil well we already knew that yeah yeah good well i already knew that i could make my mule evil and then be like also

you're aware of it and you'll be like why would you put me in this hell? And I'll be like, I don't know. Everybody kicks me out of my town. So basically there's no way to make a sweet Damien baby. Yeah, no way to make a little Omen baby. No. Damn. Unless we have sex with the actual devil himself. And on that note, I've been Jackson Bailey. I've been Adam.

And I've been Joel. You look so happy, Adam. I've been Joel you look so happy Adam Adam it's good I started out having fun I did I was having fun at the beginning it was like the last five minutes like actually jump back

five if you're listening jump back five minutes end the episode there listen to me talking and I'm like hey you know whatever

hey we're having fun then like jump skip a couple minutes ahead I'm talking like this this is Adam now, whatever. Hey, we're having fun. Then like jump, skip a couple minutes ahead. I'm talking like this. This is Adam now. This is Adam's life. I was having fun, I was. We accidentally broke his spirit on purpose.

We did it! Yes! If you think this show is worth at least a dollar, why not donate to our Patreon account? Follow the links on our website, sandspantsradio.com.