Plumbing the Death Star - Which Seinfeld Character Could You Seamlessly Replace? with Ben Lee

Episode Date: October 17, 2021

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you're listening to the sans pants network home of comedy culture adventures and ghosts hey everyone and welcome to another episode of plumbing the death star i'm joel i'm jackson and today we are joined by special guest ben lee i am here hello thanks. Thanks for joining us, Ben. I'm ready to plumb. I'm ready to go plumbing. Ready to plumb. Rocked up in full plumbing attire, as is tradition for all of us to do. My grandmother always said she would be happy if there was a doctor or a plumber in the family. And finally, I can make her proud. Yeah.

That's what this whole podcast is. It's an enterprise in making our mothers proud. that's what this whole podcast is it's an enterprise in making our mothers proud like look we went into the arts but technically plumbing's in the title so it's sort of a trade sort of sounds like a trade isn't quite where we ask the important questions like which steinfeld character could you seamlessly replace Seamlessly replace. So we all know and love Siamese. I grew up with it. You all grew up with it. I have to assume.

And it's full of quite a cast of characters quite a eclectic cast of of people and i reckon we could slip right in there without anyone noticing easily slot ourselves into that world so obviously there's the main four characters you've got jerry kramer elaine and ge. And one of them has to go, and we will slip into their spot. And I think that we, not only will be able to do that flawlessly, but also we'll be able to,

like, hey, spoilers for a 25 to 30-year-old finale. 20-year-old finale. Yeah. We just need to avoid going to jail, and we've got a better life than the Seinfeld cast. That's true. That is true. All right.

Well, um, okay. You said main cast, but for some reason, the whole time I was thinking that I would like to replace Kramer's friend, Bob Sacamano. You never see. Bob Sacamano. He was the, he, he was, is he the one who kind of went nuts and like played Pagliacci, the clown? Yeah, I think so. Outside the opera?

Yeah. I think that's Bob Sacramento. So I guess, Bob Sacramento is Kramer's friend that constantly, yeah, he's up, he's done everything. I think he's had rabies. I feel like that's something I could do. Cause there's that episode where Elaine gets rabies And Kramer's like, it's fine, you can live with it My friend Bob Sacramento had rabies

So, do we think it's possible for me to get rabies? Surely that's something I could do in my life In Australia it's tricky There'd have to be some international travel So this is a post-Lucky D world we're living in Yeah, where I get on a plane and they're like What are you so excited? What's your first move movie you could travel internationally?

I'm like, I'm going to get bit by a fucking dog. I'm going to find a dog with rabies, get bit so I can seamlessly replace Bob Sacramento from Seinfeld. What a long-winded entry into the arts. That's quite an ass backwards career path. What? Let me find out if I can find out what bob sacramento has done because he's done quite a lot okay went to the hospital for a hernia operation i can do that very easy easy spent some time got electro shock therapy at a mental institution i can do that yeah like you're like like maybe i couldn't it's getting trickier the

list is immediately so step two is a bit more difficult than step one but okay here's a question do i need to do these in order because if i travel internationally to get rabies they might just give me electroshock therapy because they're like yeah that's not really like the action of a sound mind. What else have we got here? Work at a condom factory. I could do that. Easy. That's the easiest of the three.

Well, probably second easiest. A hernia's in your future. Does Australia locally produce condoms? Great question. I've never met anybody even tangentially involved with the condom industry. Yeah. In Australia. Surely we don't get all of our condoms internationally shipped in.

Well, do we produce rubber? I don't know. It's crazy. Because I don't know if there's rubber production in Australia. I know. Or latex. Latex. Yeah, yeah. You've made me realize how little I know about there's rubber production in Australia. Or latex. Yeah, yeah.

You've made me realize how little I know about how a condom is made. You are not prepared for this industry. Yeah, you're right. This might be where I falter, where it's like, right, time to get a job at a condom factory. And I'm like, where the fuck do I even begin to get a job? I'm giggling this. Yeah, yeah, me too.

Me too. Where are condoms made? Yeah. Oh, yeah. New Zealand. New Zealand? to get a job yeah yeah me too me too where are condoms made yeah yeah new zealand new zealand is the primary source and initial processing center for most skin condoms what what that is but you knew how great is it to think every time you slip a johnny on that that condoms made the journey from new zealand to australia that's only the skin condoms uh durex condoms yeah durex is spain thailand and india yeah well there you go i saw australia when i googled that huh oh did you oh and only trojans are the u.s ones so if i get a pair if i get trojans in australia they've come wait i like you called them a pair.

I like that you're buying them in twos. Would you like a box of condoms, sir? No, I just need two. A pair, please. Like socks. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I call them now and later. Morning and night, you know?

That's the condoms I need. Wow, that's crazy to learn. That's changed the way I think about condoms we are plumbing once changed the way of thinking about condoms is because you described them as morning and night now i've just got like a pill box in my head and you've just got a condom in morning and night yeah that's my fuck day yeah I got one in the morning and then one at night. That's a nice way to do it, I guess. Is it? Once a week, morning and night. Yeah, well, it's...

I mean, there's worse ways of going about it. No, that's true. So, stay for two weeks with Kramer. I think I could do that. I don't think we'd get on each other's nerves. I think that... There's a big chance that Kramer kicks you out i reckon what uh it's hot because kramer is either very very very relaxed yes very uptight but in a way you're not expecting

well you'd also get you embroiled in something there's some kind of business plan or adventure you'd be like looking for lost treasure yeah you know there'll be something oh man how exhausting do you like i'm just gonna have a chill sunday by myself and you wake up and kramer's like jackson we gotta get the lost treasure of you know acapulco or whatever and i'm like i kramer just want to eat a fucking banana and drink a goddamn cup of coffee go away but you can't you know um look jack you've claimed that and ben you haven't met jackson before but i will say that during lockdown last year jackson was reading a whole bunch of books about people that had gone on treks without telling anyone that then led to horrible feats of survival

and you can see that there was a glint in jackson's eye that if he was able to travel he would probably just jump on a plane go to the wilderness and presumably die my favorite story it's a real quick one about somebody who really messed up uh and and in a survival situation it was this this guy in the 70s in alaska and he was this like big mountain of a man he was a bit of a luthario he was a bit of a womanizerario. He was a bit of a womanizer. And he was like, I'm going to go stay in this really remote cabin in the wilderness, like really remote. And he kind of had this idea that he could get some of the pretty ladies he worked with to come with him. And he kept on being like, hey, that remote cabin that I've booked, let's go. And they were like, no,

we don't want to do that. Anyway, he did it by himself. It was just him. He gets dropped off at the cabin by a guy in a plane. The guy in the plane gets up, like, leaves him. And as the plane's flying away, he's like, oh, shit. I never organized anyone to come pick me up. I just organized getting dropped off. No. Is this real? It's real.

And for three months, he was just like, I don't know what to do next. I am stranded. And then eventually he died out there because he just never organized that return trip and i just think that's so very funny the feeling of watching that plane go and being like shit it's like that it's like that i've lost my keys or i i forgot this was happening but to the nth degree it's incredible incredible. And that is an interesting story, and people find that interesting, but Jackson finds it inspiring, which is the problem.

Yeah, I wish that were me. You know what I mean? I'm an idiot that would forget to book a flight back. I could do that. That's what scares me about it. It's so something I would do. I double book shit all the time. It feels like just the same kind of mistake.

Also, it's just so it's so intense that there are still decisions you can make that are like one-way decisions like truly like like that that freaks me out because we live in a world with like so many options and convenience and like yeah change fees and rebookings and we can make it work but the idea that there's like, wow, that is, did he start walking or anything? Well, no, so he stayed there for some reason. He was like, I'll figure it out. Well, he's like, I made the booking.

I may as well make the most of it. Yeah, I'm here. I'm still going to have a nice holiday. Yeah. And he, I think apparently it was quite difficult terrain to try and get back to civilization. So I think that might've turned him off at a bit, but he, yeah, he spent three months there. And then he was like, Apparently it was quite difficult terrain to try and get back to civilization, so I think that might have turned him off it a bit.

But he spent three months there, and then he was like, I think they're really not coming back to get me. Uh-oh. And then he was like, maybe I'll walk, but at that point he was too weak, and then he just died in bed. And I think he wrote a letter where he was like, it was effectively a long-winded poetic way of saying whoops, which is pretty funny.

He's like, yeah, wow, this is not how i saw myself going but hey there you go big fan that you said he decided to walk but then he died in bed so he just he clearly decided way too late yeah he decided to walk to bed that's who was running the airbnb like who did the new little soaps and changed the towels and sheets after each guest? Yeah, I don't know. That would have been a shock to come in and be like, did nobody pick this guy up? I also think it's so funny that he didn't come back after three months, the allotted time he'd given. And no one was like, where is he?

They were just like, thank God that doofus is gone. Yeah, we hated that fucking guy. Yeah, with his crazy cabin plan. Yeah, man. Wild. guy yeah with his crazy cabin plan um yeah man wild um uh selling replica russian hats made of rat fur i could do that that's easy you'd be the person that tries to convince everyone that rat fur is the way of the future i think what really is wrong with rat fur to be honest and you've got a little bit of a rasputin thing going on. I do a little bit. I'm a bit Rasputin-y, yeah. Are you going to use that to claim that it's authentic Russian fur?

They're authentic Russian rat hats and I'm Rasputin is what I would be saying to people. Risen from the grave, Rasputin, buy my hat. But genuinely, rat fur is soft, right? I've never been that involved with it. Yeah. Okay. I did once remove a rat from our house that we,

because we live in LA, we have a house sort of, it's like in the canyons, there's a lot of trees and stuff around. And there was a, we saw a rat. My wife saw a rat running across the kitchen one day. And I was like, oh, no, and it ran behind the refrigerator. And I was like, okay, well, there's nowhere it can go from behind there. So I pulled the refrigerator out and the rat had wedged itself behind the piping. Because, you know, it's hot.

They love. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so I put dishwashing gloves on and just pulled it by its tail and was holding this like giant, I didn't think, realize I could have swung around and hit me or something. But I was sort of like, what do I do with it now? And so I just, at a very instinctive

level i just walked outside and flung it over the nape but i didn't get a good gaze at how soft the fur was that was a long way of saying that yeah that's incredible but that is exactly the instinct you're're like, I guess I'm just throwing it. I don't know. You're like, anywhere but my house, basically, is fine. Yeah. I don't know why. This is just another rat story that's unrelated. That's good. That just reminded me, with the refrigerator and the heat, I was working at my job, and we had, like, a guy come out and look at our coffee machine.

And he was like, yeah, I just came from the most fucked up job i've ever done and i was like oh like what happened and he was like yeah so there was a coffee machine that i was servicing and they were like it's not working like it's not getting power everything we don't know what's going on and he was like oh yeah i'll take a look at it and he took like undid the side panel with a screwdriver and like lifted it a little bit and then was like closed it and just turned to the person that was running the store and was like get everyone out and the guy was like what he was like trust me you're not gonna want any customers to see this oh my god and um yeah so they had to get people out of the cafe and then when the guy apparently like pulled down the thing there was

just a huge rat that had just died in the coffee machine in the coffee machine so it was just it was like squashed so what had happened was the rat had gone looking for heat and um yeah pressed up against the wrong thing the coffee machine had electrocuted it and then that is insane and he was like yeah that smell that's filling the cafe like oh the coffee machine's making a burning smell. That's actually the smell of a rat cooking. That is, I can't even, how many people had rat coffees before they realized? Yeah, that's horrific. That's so intense.

Oh, my God. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Also, plumbing is sick as cream and all, but did you know that we produce at least eight other podcasts like maybe you're looking for the podcast equivalent of having the flu and then taking too much cough syrup accidentally and then driving a car well then why not listen to big soft td.png a nightmare comedy podcast by comedians tom walker and demi lardner that's far better than there's any right to be all right one more bob sacramento thing that i should try and emulate all right yeah so this is okay in season 8 episode 14 the van buren boys kramer tells the bob sacramento story okay where he's on a plane with bob and realizes he has to return a pair of pants he

goes down to the subway and after deciding the train is taking too long sprints down the tunnel but trips falls into a puddle ruining the pants he was about to return when elaine asks what he was going to wear on the way back kramer remarks she's missing the point because he never got there and when asked why it's called the bob sacramento story he responds that he was on the phone with him at the beginning of the story so i guess i could be on the phone to kramer before he ruined some pants and he could call it the jackson bailey story to elaine and she could be like why is it the jackson bailey story and he could be like i'm on the phone to jackson at the start uh so i will say you you've gone safe here because yeah we no one ever sees bob so the very obvious well potentially the

obvious change in appearance won't throw anyone yeah uh maybe i look exactly like bob sacramento second thing is all of his horrible stupid stories like i know your terrible stupid stories of like plain incompetence or when you think you've had, like, a galaxy brain decision, but it has been something that has only made your own life worse. Like, you know, the fact that you lived in your boss's garage for three years. Yeah, well, that wasn't a decision I thought was clever. That wasn't me being like, I figured it out.

This is my genius strategy. That would be more like when I mixed cold drip coffee and Coca-ola because i thought it would taste good that's sort of more of a galaxy brain idea spoiler alert it did yeah all of these things like i think that you could replace bob and no one would blink and i don't even think kramer would notice no but i think you're right in a way it's a safe choice in a way it doesn't really count does it because i'm I'm not... Yeah, I played it safe. I played it safe. That's fair.

See, I'm going to go, like, swing for the fences a far bigger way. Because I think I could replace George Costanza. That's a massive claim. It's a massive claim in terms of self-hatred and feelings of failure. No, that's what I mean. Like, you mix George's self-failure and loathing with my unearned confidence i reckon we're gonna get a much better character and i don't think i'm going to jail that's oh yeah that's true that yeah prison is not in your future well okay i'm trying

to think of some classic george costanza moments um what about when i would be sad that my wife died. So that would be one big change. Would you masturbate over a luxury women's brand magazine on your parents' couch? That is a huge first question. I don't think so. At least not as a grown adult man. Surely, I mean, like I first started masturbating to Victoria's Secret, so surely there would be some element of nostalgia to you.

You know. You've been like, parents couch. Let's do this for old time's sake. Let's wind back the clock 15 years. Even that feels not long enough. Like, I'm 30. 15 years still doesn't feel like further enough to be like yeah this is a good idea yeah that well there you go that's a tricky one

but no one's seeing that so it's fine but yeah but no but see estelle costanza's got to come in and catch you if you're properly replacing george but she just comes in and catches you standing there staring at the woman's magazines being like, hmm, I will not masturbate. We once had- there was a teenager from our street who put up notes around or something saying, like, can walk your dogs for, you know, a few bucks a day or whatever. We're like, oh, let's help him out. Let's give him some, you know. So he would let himself in and out of our house

and take the dog for a walk. It was really, he did it for years. Really nice. And we had a Helmut Newton book, which was sort of like just fashion photography, but there were definitely nudes in it. Yeah. And, but black and white, pretty classy. Like not just like in terms of like by that time already, what he probably could have found on his phone. It was pretty tame stuff. terms of like by that time already what he probably could have found on his phone it was

pretty tame stuff and um i remember me and my wife were coming home one day and i walked in first and uh look i it's not it's not even like something i saw it's just i instinctively knew what was happening and he was sort of like sitting on the entryway coffee table. And he had the book open. On the coffee table? Well, it was a low coffee table. And I just closed the door, walked out, and started making sounds. Like, you know when you realize someone didn't hear you coming?

And you start going, like, oh, where are the keys? Where are the, you know, like you turn and also just to protect him from, because whatever psychological damage might happen from me walking in, it'd be worse if like an adult woman walked in, you know? Oh, yeah. If an adult woman walks in and you get kind of like a shriek or a scream, I think that would make me impotent for life. Yeah.

Or it builds a, like a perversion that you would just be recreating that forever. I think he was like never quite the same after that. And it was weird because it was totally natural. Like he's a teenage boy. There was a sort of sexy art book there. And he thought he was alone. So, you know, why not, man? Have your moment

take a moment take a quiet moment that's what oprah calls me time you know um but but it just we just couldn't quite it just wasn't the same it felt like it was like one of those coming of age moments so pardon the pun um but it just felt like now you're a man yeah i'm always so scared because like my partner is going into work during lockdown and i'm staying here to do this for work uh and sometimes in the middle of the day i will get horny i'm human and sometimes i'm like or even toward the end of the day and i'm like what have i what have i masturbated but then like i'm so concerned that i'll be masturbating as my partner comes home from work and somehow i I think getting caught by her, even though we have been in a relationship for, like, 15 years, would somehow be so much worse than a stranger. Do you know what I mean?

Somehow it would just be like, I don't know. Yeah, but that's an easy save. That's like, you're like, I'm ready for you, baby. I've been ready. I just got home from work. You're halfway done i feel like getting caught masturbating on a low coffee table reading an art book at ben lee's house is significantly worse than your partner coming home and being like oh you're jerking off okay i've seen that before yeah i suppose i don't know something

about it's scary for me uh yeah look i'm i'm sure that our listeners are all on mine and ben's side of like jackson it's actually pretty normal so fucking relax that's fair okay what about this george costanza situation yep yeah you have been fired from your job okay but to you it is yeah sure but it to you you believe it is unjust okay that sounds more accurate so instead of going gracefully into that good night you refuse to leave your office or your workplace until they try and smoke you out, basically. You hunker down in your office, they make it as

unpleasant for you as possible to be there, but you just refuse to leave. You just keep coming back to work like you've not been fired. Could you do that? I might be mixing two George Costanza situations there, but whatever, you're getting the double whammy. Yeah. The pure George Costanza situations there, but whatever, you're getting the double whammy. Yeah, the pure George Costanza experience. Yeah.

See, I can imagine a tantrum. Sure. But I think my tantrum would probably involve... I mean, it would be... If I'm not getting paid to go to work, I'm not going to work. Yeah, okay. Fired or otherwise.

Are you crazy to pick George Costanza, then? Because George Costanza lives and dies by the principle of the thing, okay fired or otherwise are you crazy to pick george costanza then because the george costanza lives and dies by the principle of the thing and you don't seem to give a shit either way so no no see i just have i think i just have like different jackson you know me i i'm gonna die by the sword man i'll die on every i went i won't live by it but i'll die by it yeah yeah exactly fuck living by the sword but I'll fucking die by it. Yeah. I've never met a hill too small to not-

Hang on. What am I trying to say? You know what I mean. Everyone- I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it.

But it sounds like in this situation, you would just be like, well, I've been fired. Have a good time. Catch you around. See you- You know, smell you later or whatever. So, I don't know. catch around see you know smell you later or whatever so i don't know i i ain't saying you're failing but it sounds like you're failing a little bit to seamlessly replace in a meta sense in a meta sense isn't failing at being george costanza truer to the spirit of replacing george costanza

i failed to be myself jerry I can't even be George! Yeah, damn. Which, isn't that a fucking plot point in Seinfeld? When Jerry's making his show, isn't George like, you got a character based on me, but it's not me? Yeah, that's true. Isn't that a thing that happens? Isn't that a thing that happens?

Or am I making that up? Just as a test, Dusha, can we get you to say it was meant to be the summer of Dusha, please? I can't remember the inflection. It was meant to be the summer of Dusha! Yeah. It was meant to be the summer of Dusha! Yeah, beautiful.

That does sound pretty good, to be honest. Yeah, maybe we give it to you. Maybe you can replace George Costanza. Incredibly unsuccessful in love. I mean, i am single true but goes on a billion dates george costanza is never not dating a beautiful woman really um which is yeah it's not a strange trick of george i could pass as art vanderley yeah okay it's brave to say that you could pass at a character's non-diploma as their alter ego or whatever.

But yeah, for sure. I think that you think being George is way harder than it's actually going to be. That's fair. Yelling in a cafe, diner, easy. I mean, classic George thing to say. Yeah, absolutely. To be like, it's easy how could it be difficult and then when you fail at it that's somehow even that you've kind of uh almost

uh uh like ensured your own victory by being george because you win either way jackson how hard could it be he's a balding loser that's fair that's fair all right yeah look okay i think you could probably seamless it's crazy normally we do a seamlessly replace episode we all struggle but you have slotted right into being george costanza with nary a problem i think the only issue is yeah i probably do end up in jail somehow yes that's a piece of shit and i'm like I'm like, that guy's a piece of shit And I'm like, aw Dog

I'm gonna really swing for the fences with mine So we'll see I'm going with my gut I'm going with my gut though I don't remember all the details But the general principle I would like to be Peterman Oh yeah

Joe Peterman Yes, oh yeah Alright Let me outline the basic logic before we delve into the details i see him as someone who lives so fully immersed within his own mythology and and and the sense of drama around his own life and adventures yeah yeah yet and so fails to sort of see how boring he is yeah and how boring he even might appear to other people yeah so something in that i i think he's much more handsome than i am but but i i think posh but i think there's a i i think there's a reliance on charisma and a sort of like just a delusional sense of heroism.

Do you think, like Jay Peterman, you could find yourself like completely abandoning your job and ending up in exotic locations, calling up Elena being like – Oh, I've done that. There you go. Yeah, like that to me is like that's that's the easiest bit like i think i think the i think i relate to the uh just the the whims and the adventurousness of like and the and the sort of self-belief required oh you abandon everything because it's yeah yeah it's incredibly privileged and that's something that i don't think i realized growing up that like the kind of confidence you have to have to

radically change path you know it's it's generally afforded to people it's generally afforded to white males basically yeah you know and like you don't realize that growing up too for sure yeah uh what do you think if you you left say you know for i forget why peterman leaves but let's say it's a sojourn in the congo and you return to discover that elaine has introduced the urban sombrero to the fashion world how would you feel about that what what kind of a mood would that put you in i quite like the urban sombrero personally i think that's a great idea but yeah i think i think one of the things i relate to about peterman is that he um there's the also the obsessive need for control in an unrealistic way and taking that as an, like if I'm collaborating with someone and they don't psychically

understand all of my needs and meet them, I take it as like a betrayal of the highest level. I was like, how could you use that snare sound? Don't you know what my values are? Don't you know who I am? Oh, that snare sound. Oh, you hate me. Oh, that's cool to know.

Yeah, great. That's awesome to learn. Exactly. So an urban sombrero would probably be similar. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. You look at Elaine like, how did you think this was a good idea? Which is what Jay Peterman does.

That's very fair. Very accurate. Just a couple of things that happens. He gets really worried about Elaine she he overhears a conversation between kramer and elaine and he mistakes it for drug slang and he was addicted to opium so he's like when i was in burma i got addicted to opium i can see the signs elaine i'm gonna let you go until you sort that out even though she was never never on opium yeah yeah but well what a good boss that he's like my employees on opium and he's not like

how he's like i get it you take the time you need yeah and also like if you have to have a story about being a recovering drug addict opium is perhaps one of the classiest most exotic you know it's not like he was into like ice or something yeah opium is though it's the classy narcotic that's so true oh i forgot that his response to the urban sombrero was to just be like the horror the horror so he watches movies yeah that's true that's true um you got any other jay peterman uh uh escapades for us to see if we can replicate? A lot of the stories highlighted here aren't, like, Jay Peterman stories. They're more like, Jay Peterman was around when this happened.

Ah, yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Well, that's me. I'm, like, the Forrest Gump of Indie Rock. indie rock i i mean i'm like i i started to realize that like my stories people are like over time less and less impressed by them because they just assume that they're gonna be sort of marvelous and bizarre and like yeah you know i could i'll drop things in conversation like that robbie williams song kids with kylie Minogue came on the radio the other day. I was like, oh, you know that lyric in there?

That's actually about me. And my friends just look at me like, yeah, sure. Okay. That's my Peterman side. Yeah, that is, that has, see, that's both Jay Peterman, but also if you're like, that also sounds very similar to the life that Kramer lives. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

This song's about me, Jerry. Yeah, yeah. But don't you feel like with Kramer, he's sort of evil, not lying, but like in fantasy. Yes, for sure. of either not lying but like in fantasy whereas peterman seems to have actually lived this life that even though he like ascribes a type of poetry to it that probably doesn't need to be there it does seem like he actually was there probably for all these that's true that's true you're like what are you talking about and often you'll see that with kramer where he will be like this is a thing that happened like it'll be like george go down to the optometrist mention my name you get 30

off yes and the guy's like what what are you doing i'm not gonna give you 30 off but then you do find out that kramer did get him off sugar so look yeah but i know what you mean there's an element of fantasy to everything he brings up but jay peterman has been in burma on opium you know that well i guess like so yeah uh jay peterman or ben lee is playing honest kramer what if kramer was always telling the truth yeah i mean the kramer thing is the kramer thing is um it's so funny because it touches on, I think the reason we all love Kramer is he's sort of like, you know, he's got these incredibly eccentric ideas and he does start them all, but they never, I mean, I love that. There was that just classic scene where he wants to do the, you know, the sauna in his apartment. And, you know, he has the bet with Jerry about, is he going to do it? And then he comes back in and he says, no, the bet's off.

I don't want to do it. And Jerry's like, yeah, well, I won. And Kramer's like, no, what do you mean? The bet's off. I didn't want to do it. And Jerry's like, that was the bet, whether you wanted to do it or not. And I think we all identify with just that sense of like, I don't know, like the way that our fantasies about who we are can change on a dime. And what we want to be and the kind of goals we have.

It's embarrassing as humans, the way we flip flop on our sort of moral compass and our goals and our dreams and all that, you know. It's embarrassing even to have an idea i think to ever have an idea and suggest it is humiliating that's true you know that's the one of my favorite lines from seinfeld is um when someone offers jerry tickets to something he has totally uproar as he melts on my ass and he's like oh what do i want to go watch a man sing it's embarrassing i love that line because it's so that whole show is so emotionally shut down it's got it's got absolutely no grounding in like tenderness or something to me that that line just sums up the whole thing like if you if you basically take humans down to their like raw, that is a man standing on a stage making silly sounds come out of his mouth.

He's like, we are an embarrassment. We are embarrassing. It's true. Well, now I'm conflicted because first the speech of thinking is embarrassing. Thinking is embarrassing, Jerry. You can imagine Kramer saying that. But then, now you've flipped it, it ben and now you're sounding like jerry well look we've all got these you know we've got i think we all we all fancy ourselves jerry because you know jerry it always works out

for and he's even steven yeah he's even steven and even jerry also like he's generally the one to leave people heartbroken. And he's like, yeah, he can't settle down, but it's sort of by his own choice and his own shortcomings. Whereas, you know, Kramer, like, that's, I had that realisation semi-recently that, like, I fancy myself Jerry, but to others I'm probably more Kramer. I'm like, we all think we think we're the center of a story that's yeah yeah but we're actually characters interfering in other people's stories

it's funny because i think that i think of myself as a kramer but i imagine i'm more like a newman to most people that's even that's even a level down there i I think I'm the wacky friend, the sort of manic pixie dream friend, but in reality, I'm a sort of loathed toad man who's more of a hindrance on people's lives than the other way around. But we do have these realizations, it's true. Well, Ben, I mean, you were saying, like, you called yourself the Forrest Gump of indie rock,

but that also, you could be the Kramer of indie rock. I mean, like, all through the 90s and the 2000s, up until until now i don't know why i didn't just say from the 90s to present every moment there's just you bursting through the door briefly interacting with people i know and i think that's kind of like i sort of come to realize that that like in a way being an artist like really kramer is the only artist on the show oh for sure he's the only person who is inventing the rules as they go everyone else is obsessed with the right and the wrong way to do things yeah and i think we love kramer because like he's actually he's like a beat you know what i mean he's like he's a guy who's in the moment and he's like with all its flaws

and i think the job of the artist in society is to be the Kramer. We're like the upsetter who's meant to come in and go, hey, you know reality as you see it. Have you ever looked at it this totally other way? And it's infuriating and it's aspirational. Every artist or the idea of the artist, the platonic idea of the artist is eating from the fridge of the platonic idea of every other industry.

That's true. It's true. Nothing's sacred. Nothing's sacred to us. We have no boundaries. You got any ham? You know, that's just what we're all saying. And we're presumptuous.

Like, the way that Kramer assumes that he can cross all these boundaries and borrow clothes and eat food and whatever it is, it's like that is a little bit the way like artists like we plunder rational thought and we plunder normal society. And like it's pretty crazy. Like if you put on the radio, you'll have, you know, you'll hear a singer who you're minding your own business. You're getting through your day. And then there'll be like a singer unloading're minding your own business you're getting through your day and then there'll be like a singer unloading their darkest sexual desires onto you it's like how dare you interrupt me in this way with what you know it's like the dog walker like you know opening the helmet newton book in my entryway in your house on your coffee table he was an artist that's what we didn't realize at the time he was

an artist yeah how is that any different from turning on the radio in the mid-2000s trent resn is telling you he wants to what like exactly we need it we need it we do we all need a kramer in our lives and i think that's beautiful you You know? Look, Ben, unfortunately, after recording this podcast, I will never be able to stop thinking about you as Kramer in the music industry. It's constant. Just there. Yeah.

Achieving heaps. Just, like, bursting in at periods of time. Everyone's like, did that happen? Like, is this a real thing? I know. Totally. Like, it's really funny. I do feel like that.

Like, I feel a bit like whenever I see like lists of like I don't know like songs or artists or something like I'm very rarely on them in relation to how much you know actual success and influence I have had in the industry but I think it's because I require a list entirely of my own like like my my entries don't really correlate with anybody else's so it's very hard to compare them for sure a hundred achievements by ben lee and the music yeah let's rank them but again that's a very kramer or peterman-esque way of thinking about my own career peterman running an article about his own successes oh yeah i mean now we're into like kanye territory

there's a lot of similarities between peterman and kanye we have to admit well ben like i mean like we're of the age we remember you claiming that you are you were the greatest australian songwriter of all time like that was the, I think I was a teenager when that happened. So, it's stuck with me. Yeah, 99 or something. It's so funny because, like, my wife had always heard those stories and she didn't understand it. And now she's been living in Australia for a year and she totally gets it.

She's like, oh, my God, everyone puts themselves down so much in Australia. Like, you could be in, like like the coolest scene of like musicians or artists everyone's like oh i don't know yeah this one's kind of okay it's like and so you can start understanding the impulse of why it almost seems like um you know it's like an artistic challenge to brag and to like rub people the wrong way in that sense you know it is yeah i feel i mean it's funny to do either way i mean to claim that potentially plumbing the death star is australia's most hated podcast yeah successes on our side it's fun it's fun to say you guys say that do you guys say that oh yeah we love to introduce ourselves as australia's most hated that's great that's great yeah yeah

it's also true yeah yeah yeah i can't stop imagining jay peterman saying elaine i am the greatest musician of all time well i think yeah i think when it comes it's come down to it we've all picked people that we can uh seamlessly replace but unfortunately in classic seinfeld you know this is basically would be an episode of fucking absolutely because jackson you've picked someone you aspire to be but really you're a newman yeah i know at my core i'm a newman it's true ben you've always been worried that maybe you're not a kramer but we're here to tell you today that you are a kramer and i don't know what i learned but i'm signing up the episode which is a very Jerry thing to do so I guess it turns out I've been a Jerry this whole time wow and on that note I've been Joel

I've been Jackson I've been Ben and Ben you have just released a new single for an upcoming album so let's let's talk it because we've never had anyone promote something that is a commercial single on this show before and that's very exciting for you and for us oh it's a whole new chapter for you guys i just can't i can't wait for you guys to be having more single promotion in your future um it's really gonna just open things up i think so yeah and i've got a single out called born for this bullshit and um which is a very, you know, Kramer concept. And I did an incredible video for it with this director, Byron Spencer,

a Sydney director and artist. And you should check it out. It's bizarre and wonderful. And the album's called I'm Fun, and it's coming out next year. That's exciting. And if you're listening to this podcast and you like podcasts

and you liked Ben Lee on this podcast, Ben Lee earlier this year was on Total Reboot, which is part of the sans pants radio network go listen to that episode because ben you tell a lot more stories than that about your life and they're all fucking crazy uh thank you in a good way in a good way. Giddy up. and become a member of Sandspants Plus to check out 20 more bonus shows and bonus feeds. That's sandspantsradio.com.