Pod Save the World - A fist bump to remember

Episode Date: July 20, 2022

Tommy and Ben cover President Biden’s trip to Israel and Saudi Arabia, explain why 9/11 families are furious at Donald Trump, discuss what can happen internationally on climate change without US action, the latest from Sri Lanka, why the Prime Minister of Italy may resign, then we laugh at Fox News’s foreign coverage, Mike Pompeo’s presidential ambitions, a French mustard shortage and what Boris Johnson’s successors think about him. Finally, Tommy is joined by Politico’s Christopher Miller to discuss the latest news from Ukraine. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome back to POTS Save the World. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. Ben, great to see you. Good to be here. I did notice that this is a tough week for former deputy national security advisors. Matthew Podinger, Trump's deputy national security advisor. It's a close-knit fraternity.

Halled up to the hill to testify in front of the Jan 6 committee. I didn't know if you had a comment on behalf of your former job title, sort of. You know, Pottinger is one of these guys who was always like, Both Trump adjacent and Committee to Save America adjacent. Very much so. But managed to stay there for all four years until he principally resigned after January 6th. So glad he did that. Glad he presumably is going to help pin this on Trump.

But let's not forget something that makes someone stick around. As Tim Miller talked about on POTSafe America, right? Like the rationalizations that kept pondering that gig till the, until the violent insurrection need to be, you know, part of the full picture. Yeah, I give him some credit for walking. I give him credit. I wish he hadn't worked there in the first place. What is funny, Ben, though, if you look back at the job of national security advisor is very important.

But if you look back at the people who have served in that role, quite a few of them leave you a bit unsettled. There are a lot of crazy people, a lot of criminals. A few examples for you. John Bolton, right-wing zealot. And coup enthusiast. Mike Flynn. actual crazy person. Just complete Q.

Non-Lumptive. John Poindexter, National Security Advisor and deputy under Reagan, convicted of multiple criminal. Criminal. Under Iran-Contra.

Bud McFarlane, Iran-Contra. I will say all these guys so far are Republican. Yes. Not that our team is perfect, but still. Henry Kissinger.

War criminal. Yeah, yeah. Sandy Berger, seems like a good guy. Did some good work. You know, maybe put some documents in the socks out and a little bit of trouble.

Listen, it's just weird. It makes it hard to have a reunion. Yeah. Well, as you, You know, we won't tell the full story. Our former boss. But our former boss, Tom Donnell and who, you know, a great guy and his dream job, was an actual great advisor.

Yeah. First thing he wanted to do after he got that job is to gather all the formers because it was kind of this. Seek their counsel. Both to seek their counsel. But I think it was a moment of like joining the club. And the people who put together meeting kind of forgot that some of the people on that list who weren't I did. Didn't exactly do that.

Yeah, it didn't bet. Yeah, the vet comes back. It's like, uh, four counts? Yeah. Anyway, they all got pardoned by Bush. Yes. I digress, Ben. Great show today.

We're going to do an afteraction on President Biden's trip to the Middle East. In all the ways, it was fantastic. We'll explain why 9-11 families are furious at President Trump. We'll talk about the future of effort to prevent climate change as Europe burns and Joe Mansion makes a mockery of all of us. It makes us insane. The latest from Sri Lanka, why the Prime Minister of Italy may resign. It seems like it's unclear right now.

We'll take a quick look at Fox News. foreign coverage and why it's so excellent. We'll talk about Mike Pompeo's presidential ambitions, a mustard shortage, making news all across Europe, and then finally what Boris Johnson's political successors think of them. And then I interview Politico's Christopher Miller about all the latest news from Ukraine. As always, just a stand-up guy, had been out in the field reporting all day long and then talked to me at like 10 p.m. 11 p.m. at basically, pot say, the world chief Ukraine correspondent as well. Absolutely. We can give him that title. Job pays well. Not compensated, but we can give him that.

Before we get to the news, two things. First, Ben, if you like good coffee, and if you ever thought to yourself, hey, what if I could buy really good coffee, but also help women get registered to vote all across the United States. We got you covered. Go to crooked.com slash coffee. If you subscribe, you get 25% off. Second, there's a new podcast coming out that world those are going to love. I'm grabbing the world those by the lapels.

The peels help. I'm telling you that you need to listen to this podcast. It is called Another Russia. Another Russia. And it premieres next week. And I think we're going to do a drop on this feed. So when you see it in your Pots at the World Feed, smash the button. Don't you just smash the button.

You listen to that punch. You listen to that, but to be clear, this is Jana Nemsova, who some of you may have heard. Jana did this podcast with me. She brought this idea to me. And it's the two of us telling the story of her father, Boris Nemtsov, who was assassinated in the shadow of the Kremlin in 2015. But what's really interesting is if you look back. at Boris's life. He was a physicist who got into politics after Chernobyl, right, the nuclear meltdown.

He was elected as the Soviet Union collapse and they started to hold free elections. He was ascendant as a 30-something young governor. And Boris Yeltsin literally said he was going to be his successor. So this was a guy, a liberal Democrat who was slated to be the next president of Russia. He goes to Moscow, tries to take on the oligarchs. Doesn't end well for Boris and himself. of, then Putin takes his place as the heir apparent, and then he moves into opposition. And he is kind of a lonely voice in opposition until he teams up with Alexei Navalny, helps lead some of the biggest protests in Russia after the fall of Soviet Union. And then he protested really bravely the annexation of Crimea and the original war in Ukraine,

and that's when he gets assassinated. But the reason I tell that story, Tommy, is that his life, like eerily mirrors every major event. in Russian history, basically from Chernobyl to where we are now. And so you'll learn about this extraordinary guy. You'll learn the story of how we got here. You'll hear this incredibly, like, Jana is an amazing person. You will feel like you are her friend by the end of the first episode, as well as a lot of other voices. So I, you know, I liked Missing America.

If some of you guys listen to that, this is better. Because it's just such a compelling story, a human story about a family. first and foremost, and you hear, Janna kind of let you in to what her relationship was like. If you've ever wondered what's the psychology of the family of someone who's putting it all on the line and risking their life, Jana sheds light on that. So I really encourage people to check it out. I cannot wait to hear it. It's such a sliding door's moment. I mean, like, Russia is a big, dynamic, incredible country full of brilliant people. It doesn't have to be what it is today under Vladimir Putin. You know, it could have had different leadership and a different outcome. And Boris Demsov is

someone who could have led Russia to a different outcome. Understanding those moments and how things change is so important. There's a moment in episode two that is crazy. It's like you have to listen, but basically Boris is trying to take on the oligarchs around the kind of fire sale of the economy. And he loses that battle. And it's kind of like that's the sliding doors moment. Like what if he had been able to steamroll these oligarchs, you know, because then the

oligarchs turned to Putin. You know, they said, well, we can't trust these young reformer types. We need to go find a KGB guy to do our bidding. Yeah. Pod drops July 25th. As Ben Mention, we'll do a feed drop in the POTS save the world. Feed could not be more excited about this show. You guys are going to love it.

Could not be more timely, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. So we rushed it because of Ukraine. But no diminution in quality. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay.

Let's start with President Biden's trip to the Middle East. Let's do this Israel part first. We'll do the Saudi part second. So, Ben, I suspect that Biden's team is pretty happy politically with the Israel leg of the trip. Biden was greeted warmly by Israeli politicians across the political spectrum, such as a spectrum exists. From the center to the far right. He was warmly greeted. There was actually a real warm touching moment when Biden met with some Holocaust survivors at Yad Vashem, I believe.

It was incredibly powerful. You know, generally Biden sounded very hawkish on a rome. He did so during a press conference with acting prime minister, Yair Lepid. He did, you know, he did an Israeli TV interview where he was again, Hoggish on Iran. I'm sure that'll play well in Israel. With friend of the pod, Yonite Levi. That's right. That's right.

He's been a guest on the show. Damn, good for her. Biden signed this joint declaration about Israel's security. He checked out a new anti-dron laser weapon. Sounds cool, I guess. He announced some assistance for the Palestinian East Jerusalem Hospital Network. It's got to be approved by Congress, but it would be that $100 million. And then Biden flew direct from Tel Aviv to Saudi Arabia, which I kept getting reported on to some historic first, but it just actually wasn't. I mean, it's notable, but it's not the first time that's happened. Anyway, zero progress on peace talks or Palestinian state. Then, again, like, I suspect this achieved a lot for the Biden team politically in Israel. But I do think, you know, if there's anything I missed in the trip, flag it. And we should probably talk about the worrisome trajectory of U.S. rhetoric and Israeli rhetoric towards Iran.

Yeah, so I guess I'll start with the positive, because I think there is something positive. I mean, as someone who traveled with President Obama to Israel, like, you know, it is, Israel is a small country with a very difficult history. And I think it really does matter a lot to have a U.S. president show up and to kind of speak to the, you know, the tragic history, obviously, that you alluded to when he had that touching moment with those Holocaust survivors. and speak to the fact that, you know, Israel exists and is more secure in some part. I mean, mostly obviously because of what Israelis have done, but because of this relationship it has with the United States. It's so central to their place in the world. And so I think—

He spoke to the U.S.-Israel relationship in a way, as Rahm Abandio would say, he felt it in his Kichkas. Yeah. I mean, it was— Like it felt very sincere. Because it is. He was kind of taken out the Kichkas. Yeah.

Now, on the other side, I—you didn't mention that. he had this kind of romance with BB Nanyahu. You know, it just hurts me to say it out loud. Which was painful to see. I still don't get it. The reports that he said, you know, I love you on the tarmac to BB and then had this meeting that went on for like 20 minutes or something. Again, Mrs. Netanyahu does not love him.

So like, why would you say that? Well, as you alluded to last time, I mean, in addition to the fact that Bibi Nanyahu has tried to defeat Democrats and has tried to undermine, you know, foreign policies of Democratic administration. including when Joe Biden served in. You know, he was making fun of Biden like a few days ago, you know, in interviews, you know, literally pretending to fall asleep. And he might be going to jail.

And he may be going to jail. And he may be, you know, for a lot of reasons. Maybe a criminal. So I just did that. I thought it was overkill. It was unnecessary. I didn't get it from a protocol standpoint or from a political perspective, but I don't know.

Because if you say, well, maybe BB could get back to being prime minister and so he's establishing some relationship. No, he already has a relationship with BB and Nanyahu. And nobody, I think, should think in the White House, and I hope they don't, that if B.B.'s prime minister, that he'll somehow go easy on Biden against Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis. You know, that's what BB wants. Then the other thing I think that's worth noting is the Palestinian issue, which is it was such,

I mean, man, like, it barely registered. I mean, they didn't even really try to check the talking points box on two-state solution. And, you know, great, like some assistance to the Palestinians, but like there was literally no political vision or it just feels like a Palestinian state is is no longer even an objective really of U.S. foreign policy. They met with Macmunibati, but you're right. It's just it. And I'm sympathetic, look, there's no clear path to get there, right? Yeah, I don't think Biden could kick-start those talks. I don't think you could have done something that would have necessarily like led us in the direction

of Palestinian state. But the more it kind of begins to fade like and Flickr as even an objective of the United States, the more impossible it becomes. And that leaves you with these bad options we've talked about, like a one-state solution or really just Palestinians getting displaced or living, you know, as second-class citizens are under occupation. So that's depressing. And it ties into the Abraham Accords theme of the trip, which is something that has totally left the Palestinians behind. Then the Iran thing, I mean, we can, you know, this will lead us into the discussion of the Gulf leg. But, you know, if you listen to his rhetoric, he made a point in saying in his own voice, which we've not heard before, that he will not remove this sanction, this designation of

the Iranian Revolutionary Guard to get a deal. And he said he'd rather not have a deal if it meant lifting that sanction, which, look, I'm just, we're going to be a little hard on Biden in the segment to all the caveats that, like, he's far, far better than the alternatives and he's doing a lot right. But that doesn't make any sense. Like this designation doesn't get us anything. It doesn't put the IRGC out of business. It certainly doesn't do anything to slow down the Iranian nuclear program. Why you would choose a kind of meaningless symbolic designation that Donald Trump imposed for political purposes over a nuclear deal that would actually roll back the Iranian nuclear program, I don't get it. It just doesn't make any sense. And it felt like it was adding to this kind of momentum towards

confrontation with Iran and the risk of escalation with Iran that kind of emerges something of a theme of the trip. Yeah. All right. So that gets us to the next leg of President Biden's trip, which was to Saudi Arabia. So for me, the last thing, the image out of this trip is undoubtedly going to be President Biden fist bumping with the Saudi Crown Prince, Muhammad bin Salman, or MBS for short. So MBS for those who don't know is the guy who ordered the execution of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, among many, many other human rights violations. When the trip started, when Biden was kind of flying over to Israel, he started to see these reports about Biden fist-bumping people during the trip instead of handshaking because COVID safety reasons. That quickly was

abandoned. You saw Biden hugging people, shaking their hands, whatever. Like, listeners might be thinking, who cares. And normally I'd say, you're right, protocol, whatever, who cares? But in this case, it looked like they're kind of setting up the fist bump as a way to demonstrate why Biden wouldn't be shaking hands with MBS, but unfortunately, I came away feeling like the fist bump looked worse than the handshake. Because optically, to me, a handshake is a generic greeting, right? You shake hands with people you don't know, people you like, people you hate. A fist bump kind of has like a celebratory vibe. Like, yeah, yeah, we did it. You know what I mean? That's what it is. Yeah. I mean, that's the origin of a fist bump, you know. Yeah. And also it kind of played it,

we'll get into the substance, but it, because you and I've been on trips where they're done, optics things that there were rightful media criticisms of the focus on the optic. I actually think this one's a little different. I did too. And I did too. Look, it also is because Maham bin Salman is kind of like a murder's dictator bro. You know, because he's in his 30s. And so it kind of lent this era of...

He's planning like a Saudi fire fest. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It kind of lent this aura of like intimacy and like literally this guy, the guy you're fist bumping ordered the assassination and dismemberment of a Washington Post journalist, among again many other things. And I just don't know what they thought, why that was preferable to a handshake. It just, and it will be, you know, you don't like, I wish it weren't the case, but it will be a lasting image. I think it'll be an image of that we'll be looking at years from now. It was a tough, tough, tough photo. To the substance, Biden did raise the question.

Shogi case directly with MBS. MBS apparently responded with a bunch of what aboutism arguments about U.S. human rights abuses. Doesn't sound like a lot was accomplished there. And then the Saudis denied that he raised it in the way he said he did. It was just a nice. Yeah, there were a bunch of competing readouts. It was just a mess. And then, you know, notably there are no public promises about the Saudis increasing oil and gas production. Maybe those happen privately. Maybe there will be some surge in production in a few months. Who knows? But, you know, there was another round of really, you know, comments about Iran, then I'll stop there. I mean, my main takeaway is that obviously the president of the United States has to meet with countries and leaders that we don't like. That is clearly

part of the job. I've just, even now, days after this trip happened, I'm not really sure why this visit had to happen in Saudi Arabia and happen now. Maybe in six months, the Saudis will be like working overtime to sustain availability of oil and gas and, you know, keep the ability for us, Ukrainians keep fighting against the Russians and keep sanctions the place. I don't know. But, you know, between the MBS fist bump, meeting with President LCC of Egypt, and then Jamal Khashoggi's former lawyer getting arrested and sentenced to three years of prison in the UAE during Biden's trip, it was a bit of a human rights disaster. Yes. And I'm glad you let's start there. I mean, so, because you make the point that's right. Like, you have to deal with everybody.

Nobody is sitting here and saying we should not deal with the Saudi government. We're not even saying that there's no world in which he sees MBS at some summit as a conversation in them. We're talking about going there with a lot of pomp and circumstance. You know, never mind the fist bump, summits and other countries coming. And look what's happened since among the countries that he met with. You know, Egypt has just a horrific human rights record. And there just reports every day about the dire circumstances for ten. of thousands of political prisoners. And there we are kind of, you know, meeting with

Cecee in Saudi Arabia, you know, his principal sponsor, it just sends a message of complete complicit. You do whatever you want, you know, because at the end of the day, we're not going to hold you to account. The Emirates, right? While, while this visit is ongoing, they grab Jamal Khashoggi's lawyer at the airport. He was changing flights. He wasn't even like, yeah, he's going to Turkey. And then they charge him with money laundering. The UAE is like the fucking money laundering capital of the world. There are Russian oligarchs who literally got trunks of their crap. Yeah, their yachts are there in Dubai hotels and their yachts are parked there. And they're charging Jamal Khashoggi, you know, the money laundering task force in the Emirates is like,

like pulling this guy off an airplane. Like this is during the trip, which is them sending a message. It's sending a message like, look, we don't care because we just had the president of the United States it's come to our summit, right? So what I worry about is that the autocratic impulses of a lot of these governments are going to be kind of reinforced by the fact that they feel like they can do whatever they want, and the U.S. is never going to hold them accountable. Then you get into other substance. Best case scenarios you might have thought of were some announcement of an increase in oil production.

Like that was just there was nothing on that. Literally. Saudi is basically like, well, there's an OPEC meeting coming up later this summer, and we'll let you know if we feel like doing anything. But kind of the mood music was not good on that. And then Yemen, you know, where you would have hoped that the ceasefire, like there might have been like a really concerted effort towards kind of ending that war. You know, there was some, I think, announcement of some additional humanitarian aid. That's great. But, I mean, for, you know, given that the Saudis have bottomless wealth, like, I don't give them that big of an adaboy for that. And so the U.S., you know, again, continues to be on that side of that conflict in a way that goes against what, you know, Joe Biden and everybody in the Democratic Party was arguing in the Trump years, right? And this is something that's, I think, important. Like, we cannot, you know, it's not just people talk about the hypocrisy of the United States foreign policy and how we always have these contradictions.

That's true. But then there's also the question of, like, what you say, you know, the whole Democratic Party decides we've got to rethink this Saudi relationship. and that we have to put MBS on ice when Donald Trump is president, it's not a good look when that is no longer the case when Donald Trump is no longer president. Now, where they landed on kind of the justification, you saw this in the stories at the end of the trip,

I think is their best argument, which is the Russia-China argument. And, you know, they're basically, Biden said, you know, we're not going to be pushed out of this region by Russia and China. We talked a bit last week about how that's not, there's not some world in which Russia and China can take the place of the United States, given that the entire military apparatus of these countries has kind of been built to plug into ours. But I think there is probably a geopolitical argument that,

you know, absent engagement from the U.S., like there's further openings for the Russians and Chinese to making roads. And that's their best argument. And so maybe what they did is hold some odious status quo. But I just don't think that that is enough, in my view, to justify it. And I get people, you know, people can disagree with that. I mean, people can say it's a tough world out there. We got to deal with these guys and they're all guys because we've got big challenges like Russia and China. But I don't know. This one, the scales tip over, I think, in the other direction. The fist bump photo bummed me out and I stayed in that place for a long time. Because Gallo's humor is all we have, the most memorable line of the entire trip was when a media consultant for the

Saudi government was pressed by some Washington Post reporters about why they had been locked out of a briefing. And she literally replied, don't kill me. I'm just the messenger. Oh my God. It's dark, right? That is a interesting word choice. Yeah, yeah. Okay, related story. We're moving on. Families of the victims of the 9-11 attacks are furious at President Trump because of his support for the Saudi-backed live golf tour. We've talked about this in the past. The live golf tour is this massive infusion of cash. They're trying to start a competing golf tour to the PGA, payers more. They bought off Phil Nicholson, all these famous guys, blah, blah, blah. Trump is going to host a live tour tournament at his club in Bedminster later this month,

and obviously he's going to get paid a ton of money. Of course he is, right? This makes, this was so predictable. The 9-11 families are pointing out how in the past, Trump has specifically singled out and blamed Saudi Arabia for the 9-11 attacks, and they're saying, hey, buddy, your club is in New Jersey, where 700 people died on 9-11. 700 New Jersey residents were killed on that 11. Trump, of course, doesn't give a shit. He wants to get paid and he wants to get back at the PGA, the professional golfers association,

because they moved their 2022 championship tournament from his course after the insurrection, as they should have. So Trump is out there defending decision. But again, Ben, I don't want to compare Biden and Trump here at all. It's not, it's apples oranges. But, you know, right, like Biden's the president. He's conducting foreign policy. Trump is just trying to make cash.

But it does, again, like it makes it a little harder for us. to criticize Trump or all these folks going along with the Saudi tour because like everyone's staring at the fist bump picture. And it just, it just sucks. Yeah, no, we always knew that there was going to be a reputation laundering aspect to the trip and to the fist bump because it's harder and harder to say to businesses or anybody like don't deal with the Saudis when, you know, the president is over there fist bumping him on his home turf. That said, though, I do want to draw a distinction here. Some people said, well, this shows there's no difference between Trump and Biden this trip. There is. I mean, you know, Joe Biden acquiesced to this trip.

I wish he didn't. But like Donald Trump, like, wrapped his arms around these people. He outsourced every aspect of our policy to these people in a way that I don't think Biden's doing, although there's some policies like Iran where, you know, I wish that he'd taken a harder stance against Iran deal critics. And he's not getting paid. Like, nobody thinks Joe Biden is going to be on the take from the Saudis, right? I mean, and think about it, like, this is a lot of money. I mean... I bet it's tens of millions.

This is the kind of thing where... It's not hundreds. Like, we have no law against it, and maybe we should look at this, that, like, the Saudis can continue to just pump money into the Trump organization. Kushner. While he's an active, you know, actively saying he's going to run for president in 2024, like, you don't think that they're trying to put a down payment on the kind of influence that they had in the past continuing on the second Trump administration?

Oh, of course there. This is gross. I don't know if you were... saw the Yankees Red Sox game Sunday night, but Fox Sports for some reason showed a shot of Ground Zero and they decided to superimpose the Yankees, Red Sox, and Baseball Night in America logos over it. Literally unbelievable. Interesting choice. As a New Yorker, like there are many other venues in that. It's not like it's a city with that. That's the only... Yeah, a lot of iconic sites. There's a lot of iconic sites where

you don't do it on. So yes, I saw that apology. I didn't see the game. I saw the apology. Okay, moving on. Let's talk about climate change because it's been a brutal week for anyone who cares about global climate change in the fate of the planet. We got heat waves scorching the planet here in the U.S., in Europe where people don't have air conditioning in the UK and Spain and Portugal. People are dying in Central Asia. The global south, this is like standard fair. Right? You look at the temperature in Iraq. It's like 100 degrees because it is all the time. As this is happening, Joe Manchin decided to tank a bill that would have actually let the U.S. do something about. climate change by transitioning to clean energy. So that sucks. But Ben, just for listeners, like the US is 15% of global emissions, right? So that means other countries can do a whole lot of work to reduce emissions and save all of us. It's a lot harder about US leadership, but it's possible.

What are you looking for or who are you looking to internationally for hope and action that might actually be meaningful? Yeah, I mean, it's super depressing. And on this one, let's be clear, this is not Joe Biden's fault. Joe fucking Manchin. This is Joe Manchin's fault. And the Republican Party. This is Cole Barron.

Entire Republican Party. Cole Barron, Joe Manchin, and the Republican Party killing what may be the last best chance for climate action, assuming, you know, if the midterms go the wrong way and hopefully they don't. I think people have to understand, first of all, it's worth reiterating the point. The whole international effort against climate change is predicated on kind of nations taking different but concerted action. And the reason that's an important thing to remember, and that's the basis of the Paris Agreement, is that when the United States, has its, I was going to say foot on the gas, it's probably not the best kind of that. When the United States has its foot on the gas of an electric car, in terms of the transition to clean energy, it accelerates the global action, right?

Because it allows us to go to other countries and say, we're raising our ambition. Our commitment to reduce emissions is going up by this much. And therefore, you know, you, India, you China, we want to see what skin you're putting in the game. That's literally how we got to a Paris agreement. That's, you know, how they tried to move the ball forward in Glasgow, although they didn't in part, not the only reason, but in some part, because the U.S. couldn't show that it was doing more legislatively in the run-up to Glasgow as Biden wanted. Member Bill Back Better originally was supposed to get done before Glasgow for a reason, so that they could go there and say, look, what we just did. Now you guys going to kick in your actions.

So I think if the U.S. has to reduce its ambition because of Colbert and Joe Manchin, the Republican Party, you know, just makes it that much harder. And to me, what's kind of depressing about it is it feels more and more like governments are not going to solve this problem, which they should, because governments are the institutions that can compel the most dramatic action. Sure, like, you know, Europe can lead on a bunch of stuff and hopefully other countries can kind of pioneer new methods of, you know, guarding against deforestation or transitioning to different forms of renewables. But, you know, unfortunately, I mean, at Glasgow, a lot of the action shifted to the private sector and it was like, what is the private sector going to do? How much financing can there be for clean energy and

climate mitigation? And the activists were really skeptical of that for good reason because it's hard to trust asset managers and corporations to save the world. But like I think we are in a place where, you know, governments doing what they can state in the law. local governments, not just in this country, but around the world, cities, which are big emitters and states and regional governments doing even more. And yes, the question of financing a clean energy transition in the private sector and through philanthropy, I think we have to reckon those of us care about climate with the reality that we can't just have a government strategy on this thing. And I'm not saying activists have had that. The activists have known this for a while,

but more and more it looks like some of these solutions are going to have to come outside of national governments. Yeah, I mean, also frustratingly in this process, Mention is also holding up efforts to create a global minimum text. We've talked about this in the past. Yeah, huge deal. Yeah, basically, he's trying to help prevent multinational corporations from, you know, playing games to avoid paying taxes by paying a global 15% minimum. So that's wonderful, too. There are some reports today that President Biden is considering declaring a climate emergency. that lets him redirect spending towards renewable energy projects, would let him block oil and gas drilling.

That report got then slapped down by other reports. Hopefully he'll do it, but, you know, so it seems like there is an emergency. Hopefully they'll do it. And just quick point on global minimum tax. Because this is one of the more interesting, creative and awesome things that the Biden administration has been doing. Yellen's been working really hard.

Gina, Yelan's been out there, like just setting a floor under global taxation with as many countries as you want. Once again, that requires other countries and their parliaments to pass laws to raise taxes and to close loopholes to combat inequality and tax evasion. And when the U.S., the biggest economy can't meet its commitment, again, not because of Joe Biden, because of fucking Joe Manchin, you know, other countries are probably not going to push this in their parliaments. Yeah. And also some businesses just want it to happen. So they have certainty. But think about it, like global climate change and global inequality, arguably the two like biggest

challenges we face in Joe Manchin. Two things the Democratic Party should be for. Yeah. Again, we should blame Republicans because they all are opposing these things, but mentioned it's inexcusable. Ben, speaking of creative solutions, in the UK, one movie theater chain offered free movie tickets to redheads to get them out of the heat on what could be the hottest day of the year. Creative thinking happening. My wife, you know, would have thrived. Yeah. Maybe you could have piggybacked in. And then the sad part, though, unfortunately, some of the idiocy you hear on Fox News and other kind of right-wing outlets in the U.S. is spreading.

Here's sort of the UK equivalent of Fox talking about a heat wave that is going to kill people. Every time I've turned on, anyone's talking about the weather, they're saying that there's going to be tons of fatalities. But haven't we always had hot weather? John? I mean, wasn't the 76, the summer of 76? That was as hot as this, wasn't it?

No. And we are seeing more and more records, more and more and more frequently and more severely. No. No. No, yeah, we have to get to London at some point and do like a show. We need more people like John. Yeah, we need more people like John.

All right, let's move to Italy, because Italy is on the cusp of a political crisis that is really, you know, an ominous side for leaders across Europe who are trying to contend with these high energy prices that we're talking about. Last week, Prime Minister Mario Draghi announced that he was quitting the job when members of his governing coalition in the five-star movement, which is a political party, basically threatened to withdraw support from Draghi and upend the entire government. In the week since, Draghi is getting petitioned, begged, pleaded with to stay in the job, and he's supposed to decide sometime later this week, so after we record. This split is over how much Italy should do to support Ukraine, how much they should spend, and how the government should respond to inflation. The concern in Italy is that if Draghi walks and Italy has to call a snap election, that right-wing parties would likely gain ground,

and that in turn could change the makeup of the government, reduce Italy's support for Ukraine, put a pro-Puton leader in charge, and potentially just be viewed as like a canary in the coal mine all across Europe for leaders who are dealing with populist forces and the fallout from inflation and energy prices spiking. So, Ben, you know, I remain worried about this. I've been worried about Italy for a while. They've never really recovered from the financial crisis. They've had a number of fragile government over and over and over again that have toppled. But I do worry about, you know, with high gas prices, unemployment high. inflation high, you could see populist anger get unleashed during these tough economic times

and see some real scary right-wing populism. And there's a dark history of that in Italy in particular. Yeah, this is really crazy and worth watching because Mario Draghi nicknamed Super Mario for his efforts to save the euro when he was kind of running the European Central Bank. He kind of came into this crazy, unstable Italian political environment a couple years ago. and since he became Prime Minister, he's this kind of super technocrat, right? Yeah, yeah. Since he became Prime Minister, he is just, like, hit it out of the park, like the stabilized economy.

He made all these changes that allowed, unlocked, like, billions of euros in post-pandemic assistance to help their economy recover. He was getting the books in order. He took a really principled stance on Ukraine, which is not, you know, Italy traditionally has been a little bit more Russia-friendly. Yeah, and they did it early. They did early. Ahead of the Germans.

Ahead of the Germans, they supported Ukrainian members. membership in a session into the European Union. And it's not just, I want to be very clear, it's not just that this is a guy that, like, hits the right chords in the kind of globalist establishment. He's doing good work. Like, Italy is getting, things are getting better in Italy because of Mario Draghi's leadership. So, you know, kind of a strange time to kick the guy out.

But this five-star movement that had to buy into this unity government is the thing that cracked. And keep in mind who these guys are, like Steve Bannon, like hung out with these guys. Like these are like war room pod listeners, right? Fun. And so these are the guys who could bring it all down. And these are kind of right-wing populace, like you said, who could throw Italy back into kind of political chaos, could be a bellwether for inflation, kind of driving out even well-performing governments. It's not like droggies, like, dropping the ball on this.

In fact, who would you rather have as prime minister in dealing with like an inflationary crisis, the guy who's like the most ingenious technocrat in Europe or like the Steve Bannon? Acolyte. Yeah, that's not hard one. So this would be really bad. Hopefully they can find a way to at least keep Draghi there for a while. But I mean, these clouds have been gathering for some time. Yeah. And if you see this government go down in Italy, I really worry about what it does. So European unity in the face of a winter coming up and a desperate need for natural gas from Russia. This is Putin's strategy, right? Like what's happening in Italy is actually part of Putin's war strategy in Ukraine. Absolutely. Speaking of the war in Ukraine, speaking of Putin, and we talk about it extensively again in the show with Christopher Miller later. Vladimir Putin made a visit to Tehran

today where he met with Iranian president Ibrahim Risi and Turkish president Tayyip Erdogan. Great to see a leader of a NATO country in the mix there. I'm sure that was a fun meeting. Curious how the discussion of Turkey's sale of incredibly lethal drones to the Ukrainian military went over. They reportedly discussed Syria, grain exports, energy prices. Putin also met with Iran's supreme leader. They release one of those memorable photos where Putin is like 30 feet away from his interlocutor. Then... No table, though. No table.

In tiny little chairs. Tiny chairs. Besides triggering every foreign policy official in Washington, what do you think the purpose of this visit was? And what the fuck is Erdogan doing there? Yeah. I mean, Erdogan's always kind of had this thing where he kind of tries to play all sides. But he's had like

pretty notable, you know, spats, obviously with Putin too. I think ostensibly they were trying to frame this as like a summit to discuss Syria, where, you know, Turkey obviously has this long border and Russia and Iran have all the influence. But I don't think that in normal times, Vladimir Putin would fly to Iran just have a meeting about Syria. No. This is the second time he's left the country since the war started. Yeah. Yeah. And the first time he's left a kind of Soviet, former Soviet Union space. And so to me, it's like him wanting to show that he's not diplomatically

isolated in the face of the war. But also, you know, there's been these reports that he wants military cooperation from Iran. I'm not like, not that sure how grave that is in the sense that, like, there were reports of Iran providing hundreds of drones. I don't know that, like, Iran does have some of these drones, but I don't know it's going to like tip the balance on the battlefield, put it that way. But if anything, it shows how kind of pathetic Putin is that like he needs to go hat and hand to the Iranians for for some drones. a little military support. So I think you can read it that way. You can read it as kind of a bit of a move of desperation from Putin if he's like literally turning to the Iranians to be a military supplier.

I'm sure he would have preferred that the Chinese backfill his military. And when he looked at the list of creepy autocratic governments that he could turn to, you know, if he had to cross the Chinese off on the military side, although they are buying all his oil and stuff, you know, he's left for the Iran. So, but it does. speak to this kind of weird new post-Ukraine World War in where the world is kind of sorting itself out in these like hardening blocks, you know? And that is, you know, that's a worrisome trend because like kind of pre-World War I history suggests that that can lead to, you know, access and allies kind of stuff. Tangling alliances. Yeah, you don't want that. Let's check in quickly

with Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka's acting president did an interview with CNN, its former prime minister, Runeal Rick Rema Shinga. He said to CNN in this interview, view that the economic situation is even worse that has been disclosed previously in that former president, Rajapaksa, has been lying to the country, lying to the public. Rick Remissinga is the guy, former prime minister, whose house was burned to the ground. We talked about him, I think, last week or the week before. So the former president, Rajapaksa, he's fled the country. He got out of there to the seychelles, maybe Singapore, God knows where that guy is now. On Wednesday, so when the day this comes out, Sri Lanka's parliament is supposed to pick a new president.

but the protesters who have been on the streets for months, if not longer, are not thrilled with the idea of the former six-time prime minister taking over. That doesn't seem like the fresh start. Seven times is not usually a charm. I've been looking for. I think this would be a six, so I guess five-time really. Yeah, no, maybe the burning house thing might have been sort of a signal there. Anyway, so Rick Ruma saying it declared a state of emergency in an effort to keep protesters

from stopping parliament from working. So, Ben, long story short, still just a super dicey situation, totally unresolved, not clear what's going to happen. You know, there's some speculation that all these guys are just trying to get the presidency so they can get out of the country and kind of avoid prosecution. But we'll see. Yeah, I mean, number one, when the president leaves to go to the Seychelles and I saw the report, like, that's kind of a tell.

You know, like just Google Seychelles, guys. Like, this is not, you know, this is someone who has some money out of the country. Yeah, some creepy meetings happening. Wickramishinga is this technocrat. And I went down a memory lane, Tommy, if you'll bear with me. Tell me. When I was 24 years old and moved to Washington, 2002, I was working as a speechwriter for Lee Hamilton, who's head of the Wilson Center.

And the first set of remarks had to write was, or one of them, at least, was him introducing the visiting prime minister of Sri Lanka, Rick Ramachinga at the Wilson Center. No way. And I was like, this is so cool. I'm meeting a prime minister. And here I am 20 years later talking about the same dude. Talking about this dude's house getting burned out. Now, the reason I think beyond just like that interesting glimpse into the job duties of 24-year-old Ben Rhodes is it like 20 years this guy.

Like this is the people in Sri Lanka want something new. This is another change they've been looking for. Yeah, this guy may be a little more technocratic, but like this is this guy is not going to kind of come in and speak to people that are like in the streets, you know. And so there just clearly needs to be, I mean, he couldn't be, you know, an upgrade from. and what we had, but like, they need to find a way to get to a more fundamental political reckoning while, you know, keeping whatever ship of economy afloat that they can, you know, which is going to be appealing international assistance. So the best case scenario may be this guy, known commodity, beginning to get some of that international aid flowing, but get to an election where they can

actually choose the president and not have this guy kind of self-select in. Man, that Lee Hamilton job still paying dividends. Still paying dividends, man. Good anecdotes. A couple quick things as we end here. So before we get the interview, so in addition to this horrible heat wave, in addition to the fires, France is dealing with a mustard shortage bin.

The New York Times attributed the shortage to, quote, a perfect storm of climate change, a European war, COVID supply problems, and rising costs. And I have to say, I experienced this shortage firsthand when I was in France back in June. Yeah, we would go to grocery stores, try to get some grapeoupon or whatever.

And every time you'd ask random people at the store, why there wasn't any, you got different answers. And in hindsight, now that makes sense because it sounds like they're different answers. There was a heat wave in Canada that cut output. The war in Ukraine reduced the production of yellow mustard in those countries. So basically, I just want to send a message to solidarity with our French friends, our French listeners, and say, if they need help finding alternative condiments or recommendations, we are here for them. I'm going to start with one. Trader Joe's, uh, uh, uh, sarahy. barbecue sauce.

I hate to tell you this, but I think I saw there's a shortage of saracha out there, too. Oh, my God. But I like where you're heading with this. I was thinking like. What are we going to do? Well, we had this. Yeah, because I didn't know that, well, my solution is bad either. Also, because I didn't know that there was this kind of global shortage.

Don't say aoli. Well, no, because what I was thinking is like to make up for that sub deal that we took away from them. We could like, you know, airlifts, like Berlin airlift, like Golden's yellow mustard. Like they did for us with the baby formula. Yeah, like those tubes. of Golden's yellow mustard, we could just maybe you need the good stuff with the mustard seeds in there. The seeds, yeah.

Well, you know, D. John, I guess you want. I mean, you know, there's a lot of Heinz. There's like, there's mayo, which, you know, the French brought to us. There might be fitting, just like Lafayette, we are here. Like, we could come back with some mayonnaise, you know. I'm ready to rock. You guys want to trade mustard for some chateau-noisse-pop? Call me.

Let's make this thing happen. Also, Ben, last week, Fox News, just, you know, every once in a while. they poke their head up and they just show you why they are essential, you know, and not just domestically, but their foreign coverage. Here's a headline that caught our eye last week that I thought was just really great. Justin Trudeau's new haircut draws comparison to Jim Carrey's dumb and dumber look. The sourcing was random Twitter users.

So I just want to say thank you to Fox News for making us smarter and helping, you know, understand what's happening with their neighbors to the north. They have, like, a pretty weird, like, fixation on Trudeau. They hate him. Like it may, it's part of these. He's a liberal and successful. He's a trucker thing. But it's also like his looks.

They're very, you know, he had a beard and that was like a fox thing too, right? Like, I don't know, Fox people, maybe think about your own grooming, you know, before we turn our cannons to the north here. Yeah, sorry you're not as hot as him. It's fine. It's a good haircut. I mean, I don't have any hair. I'm like, I'm envious. Also, it was just a little bit shorter.

Just a little bit shorter. It's not like he, like, went from, you know, shoulder length to like a buzz cut. He didn't buzz it, you know? Like that'd be a little weird. That would be a little weird. If you shaved his head, then maybe you get a headline out of it. Sure. Yeah.

A little trim should not merit a Fox headline. No, it should not. That's a good rule of thumb. Speaking of dumb headlines, failed former Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, apparently told the Times of London that he was considering running against Donald Trump in 2024. I say apparently, because there's no way in hell I'm paying to get past that paywall. You've got to be getting me for the shit.

I had the same experience there. Ben, thoughts on rolling out, this little nugget to the foreign press. I was just asked you. I mean, I was just to ask you, you know, you're a better political strategist now. I mean, would you advise your candidate to rule out their candidacy to the Times of London? You know, it used to be that the way you win the presidency, which you go to Iowa, you get on the road, you meet with people directly, you go to New Hampshire, you go to South Carolina. Then last time, it was just you go on Fox News as many times as humanly possible. Maybe this is a radical new approach where you're reaching Republican

and primary voters with a bank shot through the UK. Through the UK, Redwood Media. I mean, look, I have to say this. It's been a pretty tough year politically. I think we're all kind of stealing ourselves for a pretty tough and at times depressing cycle. The best thing happening in American politics, the single best thing is the Mike Pompeo run for president.

I'm here for it. I can't wait for it. Because to see this guy whose opinion of himself is like so high. there's nobody on planet Earth that thinks that Mike Pompeo is like one-tenth of the man that Mike Pompeo thinks that he himself is, right? That's fair. And, you know, he raised money for this campaign and the, what it was the Madison dinners

or the, you know, some founding father dinners at the state department. Right. He used to have donors and muckety-mucks come to official state department events. Yeah, so this is, you know, starts this campaign there. But in his mind, you know that Mike Pompeo literally sees himself, you know, taking the oath of office. He's probably got a draft of an inaugural dress. And this is a man who will go to Iowa and get just completely and utterly stomped by one of his fellow autocrats, whether it's Donald Trump, Ronda Sanders, or him ever.

And watching this guy, like, just fight with all of his remaining, not that there's much of a dignity to get to like 1% finishes. He has a bookmarked page on YouTube to Hale to the Chief that he plays while he's showering. He looks at himself in the mirror. Yeah. And he's the only one who's ever had that. No question. It's no question. But he definitely didn't.

He couldn't figure out iTunes, so he didn't download it. Finally, speaking of the UK one more time before we get the interview, the race to succeed, former British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, it's well underway. There was a debate of some sort, a candidate forum, and the candidates were asked the question of whether Boris Johnson is honest. And I'd like to you all to hear a super cut of their responses. Is Boris Johnson honest? Sometimes.

I think he is somebody who has... Just yes or no, I'm not doing a yes or no, because I think it would be wrong to do that. There have been some really severe issues, and I think that he has paid a price for that. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt for as long as possible, and ultimately I reached the conclusion that I couldn't, and that's why I resigned. So he is not honest? That's the question. There were a number of reasons that I resigned. He has been very clear himself that he made mistakes in government. But he had a huge range of achievements.

Is he an honest man? Brexit, dealing with COVID. I'll say that he did deliver on the project. Okay, well, we'll get to that. If you want to support him, fine. That music in the end was to take him to commercial. What a legacy. Boris Johnson is leaving behind.

Yeah, and what a bunch of weasily answers. The best answer was the person who laughed, right? Because that's like, you know, they're in on the... joke, right? She said it all. But, I mean, you can't say that a man who's been found to be a habitual serial liar by official investigations over and over again is a liar. Like, what are you guys doing? He admitted to lying as well. It had Trump echoes, though, like they can't, you know, they can't fully break from the guy, you know? I wish, I haven't seen any polling of you of like where the kind of British conservative primary electorate. I mean, the Tory party members are on

Boris. I don't really know. I have in his approach. approval rate, his overall approval rating was going in the toilet. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that there's not, I mean, actually, you know, David Lammy said this when we had him on after Boris Johnson's resignation. Like, he's turned, he took the Nigel Farage wing into the Tory party. And so now, as in the Republican Party, even though they may not be the majority of the Tory party, there's this like rabid base that probably, if you call Boris Johnson a liar, like you lose their vote, right? But it was both entertaining and a sign that, like, you know, they're going to have a hard time making a clean break from Boris, and that's good for the labor party. Yeah.

If is your former party standard bearer, honest, becomes a gotcha question. You got some problems. Not good. You got some real problems. Okay. We are going to take a quick break, and we come back. You'll hear my interview with Politico's Christopher Miller about all the latest news from Ukraine. So stick around for that.

I am so excited. Welcome back to the show, Christopher Miller. He's a fantastic reporter now with Politico who has been on the ground in Ukraine for a very long time covering the war on the front lines all over the place and just doing some really amazing work. So Chris, great to see you again. Yeah, good to be back. So the latest news I saw this week out of Ukraine was President Zelensky fired two top law enforcement officials. You wrote a piece for Politico about how this could indicate something bigger, which is this fraying of sort of an unofficial agreement. among political factions in Ukraine to be unified. Can you explain who was fired and why and kind of what

that the broader political stakes are? Sure. So President Zelensky dismissed both his childhood friend, Yvonne Bacanov, who he tapped back in 2019 to lead the security service of Ukraine. and the prosecutor general, Irina Venedictova, who was a part of his campaign and was a lawyer from Harkiv in eastern Ukraine and served as prosecutor general, and I believe was, if I can remember now, the second prosecutor general under Zelensky. The first one, Ruslan Riba Shopka, had been let go after just six or seven months or so. So it was a big shakeup. Both had been in their positions for the last couple of years. Obviously, making this choice in the middle of an active war is a big deal. But particularly so for these people in these positions, right?

Like this is, I mean, the prosecutor general is the top prosecutor in the land. The head of the security service of Ukraine is no insignificant position. Like this person, Ivan Bukonov, in this case, ran an operation that was almost the size of the FBI in a country that's the size of Texas. It's a behemoth. You know, the SPU is the successor of the Soviet era KGB. It's the sort of mirrored intelligence agency of Russia's FSB. There's more than 30,000 employees and agents at the SBA. SBU. It has sweeping powers, which is, it's a very controversial agency. And so he let go of

these two people, you know, right in the middle of this war, and two people who were seen as being very close to him, Beconov of the SBU in particular, they're, they're school buddies. They go way, way back. They grew up on the same block. So, you know, Zelensky let them go under the guise of them having failed to root out Russian collaborators and traders within their ranks. I think the president said there are 600 cases that are currently opened, looking at people within the ranks of the security service and the prosecutor general's office who have in some way aided the enemy. Now, he didn't say that Bakonov or Venectova themselves had done so,

but that they had failed to root them out. and in doing and in not doing so, you know, harmed the security of the country. But what I've heard is that, well, well, that reason is true. The other reason for doing so is to consolidate power even more than President Zelensky has and to allow his chief of staff, Andrei Yermak, and his deputy, who is a leg, Tatarov, another person who's very controversial for having served in the administration of Victor Yanukovych before 2014, to themselves have more power and influence by appointing new people to head the SPU and the prosecutor general's office and those people being close

to them would allow them essentially to form more of a power vertical structure than to have more independent heads running these very important law enforcement bodies. A couple of thoughts. I saw you reported that Bakhanov's assistant was arrested for treason. So that seems bad on the job performance front. But also, if you have a 30,000 person. Right, right. So it's 30,000 people. Right. And what I think is important to say is that, you know, it's, you know, the security service has been infiltrated by Russian spies for.

decades. So this isn't a new thing. It's not something that happened under Zelensky. He actually deserves credit for at least implementing some new reforms or attempting to reform an agency that has for decades been impervious to reform. You know, there has been some progress made. And the infiltration of the agency by Russia goes back along a long time. Right. So this isn't a new problem. The complaint was that his man failed to fully reform this agency. Yeah, I just think that's important to note, right? It's not something that was brought on under Zelensky. Sure, of course. But also, I'm not sure how you root out a 30,000 person agency, you know, Ukrainian security service of Russian spies. That's too many people. It's just too many people. It's too big. And I say that coming

from a country with security services that are too big. More broadly, I mean, can you help us understand sort of the latest in terms of where the military campaign is. And also more specifically, like, do Ukrainian officials feel like the slow but steady influx of more modern weapons systems from the West is moving the needle yet or moving the needle significantly? Yeah. You know, the messaging coming from Kiev right now is that the American supplied high Mars, you know, multiple launch rocket systems and other heavier artillery that the West has provided has helped significantly. It especially has helped Ukrainian forces to strike Russian forces in, you know, further beyond the front line. These weapons are being used to take out Russian ammunition depots,

you know, to clog up supply lines and are really making it logistically more challenging. for Russia to wage its campaign against Ukraine. You know, I think, I mean, certainly I have heard complaints from Ukrainian soldiers that a lot of the Western weaponry isn't making it to every unit, to every position. I think Ukraine is thinking strategically about where it moves these Western weapons. You know, certainly a majority of them are going. to the Donbos in the east of the country. Some are going to the south. And, you know, so you asked sort of about the state of play.

I think, you know, right now you've got Russian forces making a big push in the Donbos to capture all of Donetsk Oblast. That has been an explicit goal of Vladimir Putin. And it would allow him this sort of feather in his cap, right? Like, it was one of the things that he said from the very get-go, that was a goal of Russia to take over all of Lugansk and Danyetsk Oblasts and thus the region known as the Donbos. He'd be able to spin that as a victory back home. But in focusing so much attention there, which they have had to do because the Ukrainian military resistance has been greater than expected,

they haven't been pushing in the south where in the early days of the invasion, they were able to take a lot of ground north of Crimea. There, the Ukrainian military is starting slowly a counteroffensive, pushing further toward the city of Kyrsson, which is of strategic importance because of its location just north of the Crimean Peninsula and having port access. And so, you know, what Ukraine is preparing to do is a major counteroffensive. They're wanting more Western weapons to create this offensive force that they would like to use in order to push toward Fiercun, hopefully capture Fjcun, and create for them this stronger position from which they can possibly restart negotiations with Russia. You know, we haven't seen them make significant progress in the South yet. They've taken some smaller areas where the Russians, there's not a strong defense by the Russians, but as they get closer to Kyrsson, that conflict or battle will really be stepped up. I think right now, you know, what we're seeing from Russia is a slow progress in the east.

And meanwhile, they're trying to soften the battlefield, so to speak, not only in the East, but across the country, using long-range missiles. You know, we've seen in recent weeks, missile attacks really be stepped up. We've seen some really devastating ones on the cities of Kremlinchuk and Vienzzi that have killed dozens of people. And, you know, this comes after a period of a couple of months when a lot of Ukrainians who had fled the country were returning and thinking that these places in central Ukraine, or Western Ukraine or southern Ukraine were relatively safe, that the conflict had moved to the

east and it was focused there. But Russia really does seem to be implementing more and more a campaign of terror by striking much deeper into Ukraine using these long-range missile systems and hitting not military infrastructure but civilian infrastructure and causing, you know, not only great damage to, you know, central and western cities, but also significant carnage and, you know, killing dozens of people at a time. Yeah, no, that was, you actually sort of alluded to my next question, which was, you know, every other day you see reports of a Russian strike on an apartment building or a mall or a school or some civilian targets, purely civilian targets. And is your sense? I mean,

I assume it is based on what you just said, that I wondered if Russia was starting to have to use older weapons that were not as precise, they weren't as good at hitting military targets, or whether they're just indiscriminately bombing places and frankly, what is sustained terrorism. I don't know if there's a sense there for what people think this is. I think it's a little bit of both. You know, I think they want to sow terror and chaos. I think they want to break, you know, the morale of the Ukrainians. You know, and at the same time, if they can hit military, actual military targets and disrupt

logistics and make it more difficult for Western weapons to reach the places that need them, then all the better, right? They are using both, you know, weaponry that can target a specific location, something of high precision caliber, but they're also using things that are much more indiscriminate. And at this point, I don't know if they actually care whether or not they're firing one or the other at a specific target. Because I think the goal really is to break the Ukrainian spirit. Ultimately, the goal here is to destroy Ukraine, right? I mean, I think Putin has been pretty explicit about that.

I think the comments just a couple of weeks ago were, you know, we are prepared to fight till the last Ukrainian. And so, you know, I think if you speak to Ukrainians like I have here in Kiev or or just about anywhere else, you know, they, you know, they truly believe that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks are being done on purpose. Like, this is, this is part of Russia's plan. But I also think it's a sign of Russia's frustration. They weren't able to capture Kiev or Harkiv or carry out or I mean win the things that they wanted to early on. This is a reaction to that.

It's born of, I think, frustration because they now have the much more limited goal of taking, you know, what is just a very specific region in the east of the country, rather than capturing a significant portion of the country, and including the capital, enforcing the government and President of the Lerlans, to vigilate. So, Chris, you know, you mentioned Ukrainian spirit. I mean, there's so much reporting and conversation in U.S. media about Western resolve, European resolve, you know, will countries stick with Ukraine for the long term? And obviously that's important. But I am interested in, you know, what your view is on the Ukrainian spirit, because obviously like the last, you know, five, six months

has been horrific. The economic cost has been enormous. And I could imagine, you know, I could imagine if I lived in Ukraine wanting to just get the hell out of there, or I could imagine being really angry in wanting to fight. And I think, you know, that sentiment is important for a lot of reasons, but also because it will determine the politics and whatever space Zelensky has to negotiate or keep fighting. And I was just curious, sort of what your read is generally on the Ukrainian resolve and how they're viewing this war, both, you know, medium and long term. Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, I think the, you know, broadly speaking, the Ukrainian people are united against Russia more than I've ever seen before.

There is significant support for Zelensky. There's very little criticism, if any criticism at all, of the government. And when there is, you know, there's the caveat that is, well, you know, we'll deal with some of this after the victory, after the war. You know, so the resolve is there. Ukrainians are united against Russia. They are, you know, willing to endure whatever they need to to see a Ukrainian win. But, you know, speaking about the soldiers on the front line, you know, the morale is fraying a bit. They're exhausted.

They haven't had a break. They've been fighting 24-7 since February. 24th. You know, I'll tell you about a soldier that I've gotten to know very well who has been in eastern Ukraine on the front line since well before the invasion on February 24th. We spoke just the other day from by phone, me from Kiev here and him from his hospital bed in eastern Ukraine. After, you know, what is it now? Four plus months. He finally was injured. Luckily, not seriously, but he took shrapnel from an 82 millimeter mortar to the back and was taken to the hospital. Some of his soldiers were not so lucky and died.

But he said in the past three weeks, they had rotated some new people in and moved some other people to other positions, and of the 60 of them that were all fighting together at about mid-June. only 20 of them were still actively fighting on the front line. There were 40 who were either killed in action or were wounded and, you know, taken to hospital. And so, you know, he said we're exhausted. We need more help. We need more assistance, both from the Ukrainian government and military and the West in terms of, you know, weaponry with which they can properly defend themselves. You know, the soldiers that I've found that are, you know, where the units where the morale is still high are those that are receiving howitzers from the U.S. and high Mars, they have a lot of weaponry from the Germans and the Brits and so forth and so on.

The units that have been stuck with smaller arms and are outgunned and outmanned where they are fighting on the front line, there the mood is a little bit more grim you know they're they're exhausted they're being hit every day with airstrikes um attack helicopters this this guy said um you know they're fighting he said we're fighting an artillery war with khalashnikovs which is just not sustainable and so you know they're they're tired they need more help um you know they are waiting for a rotation that doesn't seem to be coming. So on the front line, it's a little bit different than the sort of general morale that exists here in Kiev or in Western Ukraine, where you know, the population really is, you know, very proud and standing up in every way they can

against Russia and willing to go the distance. But the people who are actually doing the fighting, they are growing more tired by the day. This is a really grinding, exhausting war. Artillery warfare is absolutely brutal. You know, shells just rip people apart. And so it can really take a heavy psychological hole. I can't even know that. I mean, I can't imagine being in a unit where you literally don't have weapon systems that can respond back, right?

I mean, you can't reach the Russian systems. If you have the M-77 Howitzer, a U.S. Howitzer, those have a very long range. The High Mars, as you describe, I think it's the longest range weapon system on battlefield well i mean i guess the russians have long-range missiles that they can fire literally from russia that have longer range but you know you get my point but i can't imagine as you said i mean just being in a foxhole watching shells rain around you and trying to fire back with a with a rifle that is completely unsustainable and i imagine you know as you've reported and others have reported that there are men and women out there just feel like cannon fodder right yeah that's exactly

right yeah christopher miller thank you so much for uh the amazing reporting you're doing and thanks for joining us today. Everyone should follow you on Twitter. Check out your stuff at Politico. It is some of the best reporting I've seen from the ground from Kiev from everywhere. So thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. Always nice to be here.

Thank you again to Christopher Miller for doing the show. Late at night over there. Thanks to Mike Pompeo for making us laugh. Boris Johnson, again, let us know if you guys need mustard. Yeah, I was going to thank the French for Dijon in the first place. But, you know, right. And now, you know, we have to come to the rate. As we will.

The airlift will commence. All right. Talk to you guys next week. See it. Pots of the World is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producer is Haley Muse. Saul Rubin is our associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Kyle Segglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, B.B. Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montuth, upload our episodes and videos at YouTube.com slash crooked media.