Pod Save the World - Breaking: Putin Kills Alexei Navalny

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

Tommy and Ben discuss the breaking news that Russia’s most prominent opposition figure, Alexei Navalny, has died while in prison. The only information available so far is coming from prison officials and Russian government-run news channels, who claim that Navalny collapsed. Tommy and Ben talk about Navalny’s legacy, nearly universal blame being put on Putin for his death, Biden’s response, and what this means for Russia’s opposition and political future. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to POTSave the World. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. And we are doing a special edition of PODC say of the world for very horrible reasons. The Russian opposition leader and anti-corruption activist Alexei Navalny has been announced dead at the age of 47. So very, very terrible. Ben, who folks on YouTube will see, is actually calling in from the Munich Security Conference the beating heart of the blob, Ben. How's it going out there? Yeah, it's, I saw like 900 people that you know, Tommy. But like, let's say it's a jam-packed event here. But I will say like in a somber thing. I mean, Yulia Navalny is here, his wife.

And so, and actually for people who listen to another Russia, Jean-Nemsova, whose father, Boris Nemtsov, is also assassinated by Vladimir Putin. She's here as well. And so, you know, that kind of added this. poignancy to a conference. Otherwise, it was a lot of people being anxious about, you know, Ukraine funding and American politics. It just kind of drove home that these are really big stakes in the world. Yeah, well said. I mean, yeah, we'll listen to a clip of Yulia and Navalny later.

And I do think, I mean, the fact that this, you know, there's debates happening in Congress over Ukraine funding. There's the Munich Security Conference happening right now. It just makes the whole, the timing of this so weird and poignant. And we'll get into that as well. But, I mean, just the facts at the top here. So Alexei Navalny died while serving out a combined 30-year prison sentence. Most recently, he was at a penal colony in the Arctic Circle. That's how far away from, you know, Moscow, Putin needed to send him. The Russian federal penitentiary service announced his death in a statement on Friday. Basically, they said he fell and felt unwell after a walk. Apparently, Russian state media is now saying it was a blood clot. We are obviously skeptical of any explanations about his death, given the history there. Peskov, Putin's spokesman says Putin was informed. So Navalny's team says they don't have any confirmation about his death. Navalny's lawyer is traveling to this penal colony in the Arctic Circle. But Russian media says Alexei Navalny's mother said he looked happy and healthy when she saw him on Monday. Navalny addressed a Russian court via video conference on Thursday. He looked fine. He was cracking

jokes. So this is all incredibly suspicious. We do know, Ben, that his terms of his confluence, were awful. I mean, I heard an interview with Navalny's daughter last year where she said her dad was spending most of his time in solitary confinement. This guy was six foot three and his cell was seven feet by eight feet. He was allowed like one mug, one toothbrush and one book. So horrible circumstances. But we'll get into more about sort of who Navalny is, like his background and his biography. But I just want to throw it to you, Ben, because, you know, I know you spent some time with Alexei for your book. You knew him as a person and also as an active. this and just wanted to, you know, hear from you, like, reflections of that relationship and also

what else folks need to know about him. Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, we should just say that we won't necessarily ever know the exact circumstance, but Vladimir Putin killed Alexei Abolny. Yes. And whether he killed him by poisoning him yesterday or whether he killed him by all the times he's poisoned him before and the confinement, either way Vladimir Putin killed the Lexington of Olney. And that's full stop. Yeah, we can get into the kind of different nuances and complexity of Navalny. I got to know him a bit. I don't know him as well as a lot of people obviously.

I don't overstate it. But I got to know him a bit like FaceTiming during the pandemic when I was writing my book about the rise of authoritarianism. Who better to talk to than Alexei Navalny. Right, yeah. And just to give you a few glimpses of character again before we necessarily get in his politics, like the first thing he does when he gets on the phone with me is he makes a joke about me. He's like, oh, you here to tell me how to do color revolution American, you know? And he was making fun of the fact that, like, Americans think we know how to, like, promote democracy,

and that ends up freaking creating problems for people like Alexei and all, you know. And then the second thing he did is he made fun of me for, you know, close listeners of his podcast, made know I was once spied on by Black Cube, which is a bunch of, like, ex-Massad people that dig up dirt on you and stuff. And that's the second thing he said. He's like, you know, you and me have something in common. and I've been spot on by Black Cube too. Big oligarch, you know, give Putin a birthday present, hired Black Cube to dig up all this dirt on me.

And I was like, look, guy, FSB, they have all the dirt. Like, you don't need to hire these guys, you know? Right, that's like the B team. He had this incredibly, like, just direct and very Russian, like, sense of humor, you know, like dark, but, like, hilarious. And he was able to hold onto it in the dark, of circumstances. Like literally, like video conferencing, knowing her to spend 30 years of your life in a penal colony, if you didn't die first. He's like cracking jokes as he's zooming into a courtroom.

And it was like an amazing part of his personality that he was able to, you know, keep that up throughout, you know, all that happened to him. It was, you know, and that's exactly right. Like, it was central to his ability to go on that he could like make fun of this. And again, I think that is a Russian thing. And then the other personal thing I'd say, you know, he said to me, he said to me, he said to me, me, you know, I got to the point of like, you know, you go through someone's journey and how do they get into politics and his story is pretty interesting, anti-corruption activists turned blogger essentially, turned investigative journalists exposing all this corruption. But then he gets into politics. And I never really wanted to ask these questions about what's it like to be in prison

and you feel almost salacious, you know, like, are you scared when you go to jail kind of stuff? And what if he kills you, you know, like, because all these questions lurk in the backdrop. And he said to me, you know, you. you know, of course, you're afraid when you're in prison. And I'll never say, he said, like, when the prison door clings shut, you know they can do anything to you. And this is really Russia. This is, you know, like...

And when he'd said that to me, he'd already been poisoned in prison once. And he said the things that sustained him, and the reason he kept coming back at it, is number one, he had the support of his family. And he was very clear. He's like, if my wife, Julia, didn't support this, I wouldn't do it. This is something we'd be together. And he's like, I don't feel alone in prison because I feel like she's there with me because

I know she supports my decision to be doing this, which I always saw as an interesting, you know, window into like, you know, activists, their families sacrifice for them. They have two children. One with Stanford, I think, right? Yeah, one is at Sanford, Dasha. But also that that's what he's thinking about in prison. Like, you know, I take comfort in that. And you'll notice if you, you know, when he was in prison, he would often, his messages

were to his wife. But then the other thing he said is what sustained him is rage. And he said, if I ever need an incentive to be in prison, I will just think about what it's like to be in a Russian court and the lies that they tell you. Or I'll think about, you know, the buildings that were knocked down in Moscow by a bunch of gangsters, like stealing money from people when you got into politics. Or I'll think about the lies that Putin tells why he steal, you know, rage, this weird mixture of rage, humor, and family.

Like, that's, that's the Alexander Navalny that I met. And it was this kind of very interesting character. And he had this way to cut through bullshit. He's like, you know, you know, the couple of things that I always remember, like, the thing that stands out to me, he said, you know, Putin doesn't need to convince everybody that he's not a liar or that he's not corrupt. He just sets to convince people that everybody is, you know. Right.

And he said, and yeah, and he said, well, he said, the same thing is true about the global politics. He's like, he has to just convince people that democracy is just as corrupt as the system in Russia. And I remember him saying to me, and look what had happened. When Donald Trump gets elected, my whole, he said, my whole life I've been making an argument that in a democracy, the better people rise to the top than our system. And then all of a sudden, you guys elect someone who's totally corrupt. And he was like joking about it, you know? But like, he had this kind of way to cut through the bullshit in his analysis of Russian politics. And again, last thing I'll shut up. I remember him saying to me, like, I said, what would happen if you could run?

And he said, the first time I run for president, if they really let me, I'd lose, the second time I'd win. Like, he was sure he could win that he could be president of Russia. Like, he was certain of it. There was this kind of fearlessness and certainty of it. And again, I think that's what scared Putin. You know, like, this guy was not afraid of him. He was fucking fearless, unlike Putin, who's like a, you know, pussy who, like, hides in, like, the Kremlin orders these things. And, and, you know, steals money from people.

And, you know, it's just a tragedy, like that someone like that is lost for having guts, you know. But he knew what he was doing when he flew back to Russia after they almost killed them last time. Yeah. So just a little more of his backstory. I mean, I think Namalini got into politics around 2008. He became very well known internationally around the 2011 anti-government, anti-Pooten protests. And then he did attempt to run for president in 2018. But to your point, Putin was so scared of him that he barred him for doing so based on some trumped-up corruption charges.

from several years earlier. Navalny was, you're right, he was an activist, he was an opposition candidate, but he was also an incredibly powerful messenger and propagandists, really, and I say that in the most complimentary way, his organization would make these YouTube videos

about the lavish lifestyles of Putin or Dmitri Medvedev, like Putin's inner circle, and the way they were living in literally, in Putin's case, a billion dollar home paid for by corruption. I think the video about Putin's billion dollar palace and the Black Sea has over 120 million views at this point. So you can tell why Putin saw him as a threat. And to your point, like he was poisoned in prison. And then he was poisoned again in 2020

by some FSB agents who followed him on a business trip to Siberia, poisoned his underwear. And miraculously, Navalny survived that, got treatment in Germany and then came back to Russia, knowing full while he'd be arrested and thrown in jail like this. And in the process, he was so smart that he worked with this organization Bellingat, which figured out which FSB unit was the one who tried to assassinate him. He called one of the guys who was part of the assassination team, pretended to be his boss's boss's boss and got him to, you know, detail to Navalny all the ways this assassination team tried to kill him, try to cover it up, et cetera, et cetera. So just like an unbelievably savvy, creative guy. And to your point, Ben, like the kind of like wry humor at all

was the through line through everything he did. Yeah, I mean, there was a cleverness, right? Like, he told me the story of, like, how he rose from being this kind of local political operative to being this blogger. And he had a law degree, he had a legal background. And what he did is he bought a really small number of shares in, like, all the big Russian oil companies. And this was a little bit a while ago when there was a little bit more of a legal, you know,

And he used that to sue all of them to reveal, like, their schemes, you know. And so he realized that there was this tool he could use to show that they were, the profits that they were making, you know, didn't match up. You know, like, basically he was revealing that there were billions of dollars. Yeah. Yeah, there were billions of dollars disappearing to middlemen. And I tell that story because, like, he was just always kind of one step ahead in being clever about finding a weakness in the regime,

and it was always about corruption. It was always about exposing corruption. And he was sometimes criticized for being a single issue guy who just focused on corruption. But what he would always say is, well, the whole thing is corrupt. So if we don't get rid of this corrupt system,

we can't solve the other problems. Like I'd love to have an agenda about like health care and, you know, foreign policy. But before that, we had to get rid of these corrupt kleptocrats, essentially, you know? And again, that... built this following that he had across Russia.

And it should be clear, like, I've admired Boris Nemtsov, for instance, the politician I mentioned who was assassinated. Navalny was not like a Western liberal. Like, you know, he wasn't one of these Russian opposition guys that hangs out a lot in in Washington. And I admire those guys, by the way. I don't mean to them. But he was like a pretty hard-ass guy from a military town outside of Moscow.

He associated with some Russian nationalists, which we'll probably talk about. but he also so he reached different audiences it wasn't like he was just reaching yes sure some of it was kind of like these middle class muscovites who turned up to protest when Putin came back in office when Navalny led that protest movement um but you know he could also reach into other parts of russia and he traveled all across the country like when he was poisoned he was in siberia you know um and so this combination of of innovation and and humor and and also just kind of being, you know, a pretty authentic Russian guy with a very authentic Russian family, again, that all contributed to the kind of potency of his standing.

Yeah, I mean, I think that nationalism was part of his appeal, part of his ability to reach beyond, as you said, kind of like elite educated circles in Moscow and to sort of like appeal to the common man. To your point about his divisiveness in some circles, I mean, I think he was seen as a divisive figure among some of the more liberal opposition in Russia. because they thought he was more of an attention getter than a politician. Like you said earlier, I mean, Mavani admitted he didn't really have policy proposals. He did these anti-corruption YouTube videos that garnered lots of attention and sort of went after Putin.

But that was what he saw as his path to taking down this corrupt regime. There was also some controversy around Navalny in 2021. Mnesty International briefly revoked Mnvalny's prisoner of conscience status after some of his old comments resurfaced, including a time when he compared immigrants to cockroaches. Obviously, that's like a totally inappropriate dehumanizing thing to say. But, you know, I think it did sort of speak to the kind of person that Putin saw as a threat and who could appeal politically to Putin voters, for lack of a better word. Yeah, you know, he, you know, he's been asked about this a lot. And actually, people should watch the documentary Navalny and he's asked about this there and he gives like a pretty

clear answer. Some of that stuff he's apologized for, like he ended up apologizing for. And, you know, I think he, like, was a bit more of, like, a, you know, some of the rough edges may have been smooth over. But he defended some of his association with these kind of ultra-nationalists dudes. And, and he makes this point in the documentary, and people can judge themselves. He's like, I'm trying to, like, get rid of this autocrat. Like, anybody that's against Putin, you know, and we can debate that. But put yourself in his shoes, you know, like, by and large, like the people around Navalny were more liberal, you know, folks who wanted to have democratic values. I think that, you know, if you, in my conversations in Navalny, he just basically

talked about, you know, Putin represents not just corruption, but also this kind of Russian czar mindset where we spend money on wars and instead of spending, his message to me, Tommy, was basically like, let's stop spending message on wars overseas and start investing money in Russia, you know, let's stop like giving money. The crypto-trak. It's a pretty classic, like, populist message. Yep. Like, democratic principles, bring the money home.

I don't think he was, like, some Uber nationalists. Even on Ukraine, and I write about this a lot in the book, like, you know, was he supported the annexation of crime being. Now, what he explained to me, his family was half Ukrainian, half Russian, right? One of his parents was Russian, one of his parents was Ukrainian. And he said they used to fight about this all the time. And, you know, his version was, like, We should leave Ukraine the hell alone, but give us Crimea, you know.

Now, I want to be clear by one thing, though, on this. He would not have annexed Crimea, though. He would not have invaded Crimea. He would not have invaded. These are positions he took after the war started, and he was in prison. When he could get him killed, he was protesting the war. And his whole message to me was what a waste war is and we shouldn't be doing it. So I think that we shouldn't whitewash the nationalism, but that doesn't make him Putin.

I know some people are like, oh, what's the difference? You know, put in context. There's a massive fucking difference. This guy would not have invaded Ukraine. This guy would not be killing people like him in Russia. This guy would not be like stealing hundreds of billions of dollars and giving it to people with yachts. You know, like, and so I think that's the kind of, you know, you can't avoid, you know, some of the, you know, some of the. the nationalism in his background in the associations, but you also have to see it in the context of Russia.

And I put this to people, Russia's not going away. It's a huge important country. Would you rather have like a guy like Alexei Navalny running in place or Vladimir Putin? Yeah. I mean, look, we're trying to build a coalition over here from like Bill Crystal to Bernie Sanders. So we have a piece of that coming from our own house here. So Ben, you mentioned that Julia Navalny, Alexei Mali's wife was at the Munich Security Conference when she heard the news. She actually addressed the group on the main stage. Here's a clip. If this is true, I would like that Putin and all his coterie, Putin's friends, his government,

to know that they will be accountable for what they've done to our country, to my family, And to my husband, they will be liable for that. That day will come very soon. I would like to call upon the global community, everyone in this room, people around the world, so that we would unite together and overcome that evil, overcome the cerebral regime that is currently in Russia. We should just say, Ben, that, you know, when Vladimir Putin had his FSB guys try to assassinate Navalny in 2020, he was asked about it at his yearly press conference. And he didn't, he said,

yes, basically he admitted that the FSB had been tailing Navalny, but basically his response was like, look, if we wanted to kill them, they would have finished the job. So, you know, he is a, this behavior has been approached with complete impunity by Putin. We'll get into this more with the Biden press conference clips later. But I'm sure there will be efforts by, you know, Western countries to punish Putin and punish Russia for this act. But, you know, if Biden gets into this a bit, I mean, a lot of those steps have already been taken in terms of sanctions, et cetera. Yeah, you know, it's just like, I don't know, I've got a little emotional hearing that because it's just, you know, you have to, you're right. Like, this is, like, we're not going to, like, sanction Putin to, you know, like,

to surrender over the Navalny thing. and, you know, we're not going to go to war with Russia over this, right? And so at the end of the day, and even the war in Ukraine, like we talked about, is, you know, there's a stalemate there. But the question that she raises is about accountability, right, is a historical question. You know, it's basically like 20 years from now Vladimir Putin to die in his bed, president of Russia, richest man in the world, right? Or, like, one way or another, he will have been, like, hoisted out of there.

and it will be in disgrace, you know. That's the real accountability. It's not some sanction we put on them, you know? And I think the basic message from the Navalny family is like if more people had the guts of Alexei Navalny, like in every dimension, we don't all have to end up in a Siberian prison. I'm not suggesting we all go to Siberia and get thrown in prison and killed. But this guy, like the example of him flying back to Russia after he was poisoned, knowing he'd get arrested when he landed there. And knowing you'd probably get killed in prison after suffering a lot. Like, think about the kind of asks that we make of ourselves, you know, like, can you volunteer for a campaign or something?

You know, like, like, it's just like if a few more people or like, you know, some fucking Republicans who are afraid to like break with Trump on Ukraine supplemental because they don't get like fucking true social at them or, you know, or some. Some Russians, by the way, like a bunch of Russian oligarchs who, yeah, like don't want to give up their yachts so they don't want to cross Putin. Like, well, this guy gave up his life, okay? Roman Abramovich. Like, so that's the lesson for me from all this. It's like if you want to step way, way back, this guy was willing to die for his belief that Flavre Putin is like a kleptocratic criminal who is, like, ruining his country. And we can all do a little bit better. And if we do, it's more likely that in the whole, not just in the war in Ukraine, but in the kind of whole contest that is happening, it's more likely than not that he will not die in his bed, the richest man in the world and the ruler of Russia.

You know, so Ben, I think, you know, it just listeners should know that the space for journalism and opposition leaders and critics of Putin was very small before the invasion of Ukraine. And now it's, you know, completely shrunk, if not gone. It is worth also pointing out that Putin was scared of Navalny. I mean, he wouldn't even use his name. But now Putin has thrown in jail or killed or forced into exile basically every prominent Russian opposition leader. He's actually targeting Navalny's team as well. They labeled his organization, extremist organization. They've been cracking down on Navalny's defense attorneys. You know, you went through some of this earlier, but, you know, Boris Nemtsov was murdered in 2015. The former oligarch Mikhail Kodorkovsky. has been funding opposition leaders, but he's doing it from exile. So, you know, like, there is just the question of kind of what comes next and who could take up the mantle of an Alexei Navalny is a very hard one because there's not any obvious answer at the moment. Yeah, and I'm going to be clear.

Like, I actually don't put it on, like, you know, some 20-year-old Russian to, when I say people need to do more and be better. Like, I get why, like, some young Russian isn't, like, rushing into the street to just get arrested and thrown in prison. But that doesn't mean that there's not things that can be done within Russian society. And that doesn't mean that there aren't things that can be done. Like these Russian elites who, you know, they made a deal with like Putin like the Republicans made with Trump. Like, you know, 20 years ago they made that deal.

And some of those people have resources and they could be doing things. I think the Russian diaspora that has left, like can stay politically active. I think, by the way, you know, not that, again, be very clear, these are not. The Navalny movement is very much a Russian movement. So we had to be careful not to turn into some. Western back movement. But we can support them. We can, you know, they, I'll give you one example, Tommy, like they were setting up their whole YouTube channels and their whole kind of capacity to broadcast when they were exiled. And they were having trouble getting on American tech platforms

because of sanctions, you know? And, well, we can find a solution to that. Like the government can sit down with the tech companies. Like, there are things that can be done to make it easier for Russian opposition by both by Russians and by outsiders. But there's not another leader of his stature. There's not. Like, you know, Nemtsov was a popular leader, not as popular even as Navalny by the end, because for a lot of reasons, and, you know, which we go into another Russia, the podcast that I did, but like, was Jana, his daughter.

But the Navalny was like a big, you know, the biggest figure by far in the Russian opposition. But I don't know. I think he knew what he was doing. And I think he knew that like if he was killed, if he survived, then he could become president. And if he didn't, I think he probably knew that that would like instill in a lot of Russians a sense of like, this is fucked. I mean, it's a martyrdom. I mean, it's an incredibly powerful thing. And when the moment comes.

And it's come in Russia, man. It came in 1905. It came in 1917. Like when the moment comes, people will be fucking pissed because of what he did, Alexei Navalny. And there'll be somebody else who was inspired by him who will become that leader, you know? And meanwhile, he's got an infrastructure that can keep working on this. And I think, you know, so it's less like having one person to be the focal point and more just like what he represents won't die with him. Yeah, well said.

So President Biden came out pretty quickly to give a statement about Alexei Navalny and he took some questions from press. Let's hear an excerpt. Reports of his death, if they're true, and I have no reason to believe it or not, Russian authorities are going to tell their own story. But make no mistake, make no mistake. Putin is responsible for Navalny's death. Putin is responsible. What has happened to Navalny is yet more proof of Putin's brutality. No one should be fooled, not in Russia, not at home, not anywhere in the world.

Putin does not only target his citizens of other countries, as we've seen what's going on in Ukraine right now. He also inflicts terrible crimes on his own people. And as people across Russia and around the world are mourning Navalny today, because he was so many things that Putin was not. He was brave. He was principal. He was dedicated to building a Russia where the rule of law existed and where it applied to everybody. Navalny believed in that Russia, that Russia. He knew it was the cause worth fighting for and obviously even dying for. This tragedy reminds us of the stakes of this moment.

You know, Ben, I know you're having time to watch the whole thing here in Munich, but it's a very strong statement from Biden. I mean, clearly something an issue he knows about and is passionate about and someone he's probably spent time with. Biden was also asked directly if the United States views this as an assassination. Sir, first, was this an assassination? The answer is that we don't know exactly what happened, but there is no doubt that the death of the Volunet was the constitutional.

of something that Putin and his thugs did. And to be clear, you warned Vladimir Putin when you were in Geneva of devastating consequences if Navalny died in Russian custody. What consequences should he and Russia face? That was three years ago. In the meantime, they faced a hell of a lot of consequences. They've lost and or had wounded over 350,000 Russian soldiers.

They've made them a position where they've been subjected to great sanctions across the board. sanctions across the board and we're contemplating what else could be done. But what we were talking about at the time, there were no actions being taken against Russia. And that's, look, all this transpired since then. So, Ben, I mean, I, you know, I thought it was a strong statement. I'm glad Biden came out and took this head on the day it happened. I think that answer there that, yeah, you're right. Like, we may never know exactly what happened to Alexei Navalny, but there is no doubt that this is Vladimir Putin's fault that, you know, led him to die at age 47. He's not an old

man. He's just going to drop dead. And also, you know, I think Biden was kind of trying to temper expectations there by being honest that there's just not a ton more diplomatically the U.S. can do. Yeah. I mean, first of all, the fact that he gave this statement, you know, if there's, the U.S. probably, like, follows us pretty closely. It kind of indicates to me that he's dead. You know, like, this idea of, like, we're not sure. Like, I don't think he would have gone out. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about that. that, but, you know, they probably know. And I think he was right to put the responsibility on Putin. And I think the thing I'd say, Tommy, because this whole thing has got me a little

reflective and, you know, it's late in Munich. And, like, you know, I've been pretty hard on Joe Biden like of late, you know, on Gaza. And, and obviously we're going through the whole stuff about, you know, its age and, you know, people want. But you know what? Like, do you want a president? What would Donald Trump say? like Donald Trump like is talking about like you know telling Russia to do whatever the hell it wants he didn't care in 2020 yeah Donald Trump

doesn't give a shit about Alexei Navalny like this is not a joke people like like this is where it ends like Putin got elected in 2000 and you know it was a 24 year journey

to like people getting killed in prison like this like I don't want to take that chance. No. And so, again, I actually thought about this today. It's like, you know, this should drive home the consequences for people. You may not love Joe Biden.

Like, you may have some issues with this policy or, but like, this is not something to fuck around with, you know? Yeah. Because, like, this is where it ends. This is where this kind of autocracy ends. Like, Vladimir Putin sitting in the Kremlin, invading countries and killing people. like that's where autocracy ends and that's what Trump represents you know and like that was

I sent you Tommy the last exchange I had with Navalny was it on Texas about these people are all the same you know and again I'm sure Trump hasn't done the things Putin's done I'm not suggesting direct equivalence but this is not something to mess around with and and I think

you know that that's something we should remember today yeah listen Trump is on the side of the oligarchs not the people fighting them he is on the side of the authoritarians not the people fighting them. You would like Ben, in this speech, Biden hit Congress hard for going on vacation for two weeks. I didn't realize this. Congress is in recess for two weeks without, you know, passing Ukraine funding. There's letting it dangle out there. Biden also uses an opportunity to go hard after

Trump's comments today about, you know, whether what he would, telling Putin that he should invade a NATO country that hadn't spent 2% of GDP on defense. So it was really strong overall. You actually got asked about the anti-satellite capability stories that popped up earlier this week. By the way, if folks want to learn more about that, we did a YouTube exclusive Pod Save the World interview with an expert named James Acton that's on our Pod Save the World YouTube channel. But, yeah, I'm with you, Ben. Like, listen, I've been frustrated with Biden on Gaza. I think almost everybody would agree that he did an incredible job rallying the world in support of Ukraine and deserves a lot of credit for that. Yeah.

And just as a general matter, we should be on the right side of these things. And these are huge fault lines. And, you know, like the bottom line is, are you on the right side of this thing? And, yeah, the fact that these people are hiding, I mean, I'm in Munich, Tommy, and like, one of the things people are talking about is like Lindsey Graham used to love to come to this conference. Yeah, he skipped it, right? Yeah, he skipped it and went to the border instead, right? But the reason he skipped it is because he's afraid to look these people, not that there's

such a bunch of badasses here in Munich, but he's literally afraid to look these people in the face and explain why he opposes his supplemental. Right. Like, these are a bunch of cowards, you know, who don't stand for anything. And, and the day like today exposes all of that. Yeah. So we asked the Discord, the Potsay for some questions. They send in some great ones per usual. So Spiffy asks, I love the names on these things. Why do you think Putin decided to kill Navalny now? What does he gain from publicizing this right before his reelection? I, Ben, I'll admit, like, I've been wondering this too. I mean, Putin has tried to kill Navalny a couple times. He could have had him killed at any moment.

It is surprising that in the middle of this big political fight in the U.S. over more Ukraine funding, that he would, and maybe it wasn't sort of directly in his control, and that's the answer. But for this to happen now, seems like the kind of international news story that just might be able to shame a couple Republicans into finding a backbone and breaking with Donald Trump and supporting Ukraine aid. I mean, it seems like the most disadvantageous political moment for, for Putin to do this. Yeah, I mean, look, there's too, there's, it's certainly possible that, you know, Navalny's just been so poisoned over time and, and grinded down that, that he did have like a blood clot or something, you know, that, again, Putin's still responsible because it's because this man has been pumped with poison and treated like in torture conditions. if he was killed because of timing, which we don't know and probably never will,

you know, I think in general, Putin seems to be feeling pretty full of himself right now and he's kind of rubbing everybody's face in it, you know, the, like Tucker Carlson interview, and like he's trying to show people in general that he is winning and he's going to do whatever he wants. This Munich Security Conference, by the way,

which we can make fun of is, because it is kind of like a, you know, blob reunion. But, like, he had, like, a weird fixation on that. Like, he came here and gave a speech once about, you know, telling everybody to, you know, where to put it. So maybe it's sad. I don't know. What I would say is, it's a general matter.

The message emanating from Putin and the Kremlin is, I really don't care. I don't care about your sanctions. I don't care about all the aid of in Ukraine. I don't even care about the hundreds of thousands of Russians who've been killed and wounded here. Like, I'm just going to keep being Putin. And, you know, that's something. we need to factor in. Yeah, hey, congrats again, Tucker Carlson,

on your hard-hitting interview where you just were with. Who didn't ask about Navalny, by the way? Sure didn't. Did not ask about Navalny? Sure didn't. So two Discord members, Miles and Zach, have similar questions about whether there's anyone in the Russian opposition that could take up the Navalny mantle and sort of lead an opposition party.

Van, it's worth pointing out that there's an opposition figure named Burris Nadirjan who was just barred from running. He tried to challenge that ruling and just yesterday. His challenge was rejected. Ndjirjan isn't a true opposition figure the way Nipalny is. He more worked within the system, but he did take an anti-war stance. I suspect it was popular in a lot of quarters, especially with people who are sick of seeing their, you know, sons and friends killed in this meaningless war.

But, you know, to our point earlier, it's not obvious who or how you could lead an opposition movement at this moment. Yeah, there's just not. I mean, and he even said the guy who's disqualified in his interviews. He's a guy, I'm not as charismatic or popular as Alexei Navalny, but, you know, someone's got to run. That was basically his message. And it's just, you know, there are a bunch of people in prison. There are a bunch of people out of the country.

Nobody of this stature. There's some movements. The infrastructure, what happens to the infrastructure of only built will be interesting. Like, I hope it continues because it does this service of exposing corruption. But, again, I think ultimately, you don't know where it's going to come from. I mean, it's some. soldier who returns home who's pissed off about what he was made to do in Ukraine. Is it someone out of the country that organizes? It's probably not the worst thing that, you know, it's going to have

to kind of organically generate instead of it just being hung on one person. But there's really not. There's not like some next in line here, I think, to be at the front of the Russian opposition. You know, then there are these people like Kodikovsky and Gary Kasper, these people out of the country, but they're not as tied in to, you know, Navalny had his finger pretty close to the pulse there. And so even the prominent exiles, I don't think they had that standard. Yeah, if you're spending more time in like Brookings

than like, you know, farms in Siberia, you're probably don't quite have your finger on the pulse. I mean, also is interesting then that we're about to be at the two-year anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. I say full-scale because Ukrainians will always remind you that the Russians started invading Ukraine in 2014 with Crimea and then at the Donbass, et cetera. But a couple folks asked, do you think Congress will see this as incentive to continue supporting Ukraine?

Do you think any Republicans will kind of back off their pro-Putin, pro-Otocrat rhetoric as public outrage grows over his death? That's a really great question of sort of how this will break politically been. Because, you know, again, Navalny was poisoned in 2020 when Trump was in charge. I think he viewed kind of any debate about whether or not he had he was in charge. he should be critical of Putin as an affront to him personally in some sort of tacit, you know, suggestion that he got help in the election or whatever. It's just like it all got tied up in his narcissism. But I mean, I'm curious what your take is on whether this is the kind of thing could break through politically. Oh, man. I wish it were, but I don't think so, right?

You know, I mean, and you probably have better sense than me, Tommy. Like, I just, it feels like the reasons, you know, it's appealing to the conscious of these republicans. Republicans, where has that kind of gotten us? I mean, I do think what it will do, I think, is energize, it might energize Europe a little bit more. I mean, it kind of just reinforces the depths of what we're dealing with in Putin. And so I think it can only help, you know, in terms of, like, what more support can be provided by Europe? What more, you know, can we get some more people in Congress to the people that are invested in the supplemental, maybe we'll feel. energized to put more pressure on people, you know. I just don't know whether it's going to move like

a callous, self-interested, scared politician like Lindsey Grant. Yeah. So Alona just sent around to our Slack Speaker Johnson's statement on Namalny's death. I'll skip the first two paragraphs, which are not totally germane to this, but it said then he says, in the coming days as international leaders are meeting in Munich, we must be clear that Putin will be met with united opposition. as Congress debates the best path forward to support Ukraine, comma, the United States and our partners must be using every means available to cut off Putin's ability to fund his unprovoked war in Ukraine and aggression against the Baltic states. So, I mean, at face value, you read that and think like, okay, so you're going to put the thing on the floor and vote on it, right? But I still worry this coward thinks he's going to lose his speakership if he supports Ukraine. Yeah, I mean, I hope so. I hope I'm wrong. And, like, you know, there's a big rally in like a Navalny effect.

And what's so crazy about that statement is it kind of seems to allude to sanctions. Like the sanctions are, they're not working people. Like, I hate to tell you, like, they're, they worked a bit, you know, like they took some money away from the Russian government and the Russian oligarchs. But they have all these workarounds. And so that's like a, you know, sitting in Washington is, you know, demanding more sanctions. Like, it's, that's not going to be the thing that works here, you know. So that feels like a, the fact that he didn't direct it to the, and we're going to, past funding to support Ukraine, but he directed it to kind of holding them accountable and

blah, blah, blah. Like, again, I hope that it means that they'll act, but I'm, I'm not that optimistic. Yeah, I'm with you there. Final question is from exploding gopher, maybe a Minnesota, hopefully. Or a catty-shack, even better. Will the U.S. have any response other than Biden making a statement? What can the U.S. or the international community do? I mean, I think the debate we're talking about right now over Ukraine funding in Congress is

obviously the most important thing. think your point is well taken, Ben, that this could motivate or inspire folks in European capitals to dig deeper and do more. I really, I mean, look, rhetorical, Biden's statement rhetorically was great. Maybe he'll give a big speech about democracy versus autocracy. Maybe he'll make it part of the state of the union, which is coming up in a couple weeks. You could imagine a big Navalny section there and a messaging effort around it. Clearly, they, they, the White House, think this fight over NATO with Trump is politically advantageous for them. But I don't know. You could also imagine a scenario where Trump just fucking tweets something terrible and steps in it

and creates problems for himself. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's, in addition to the things we talked about, right, like there's Ukraine support. There's potentially the kinds of support for the Russian opposition, not to co-op them, but to just kind of like help them platform. But then there's like, you know, the kind of stuff Navalny did, like revealing corruption, you know. I always said the U.S. government could do more. Yeah. Like, why couldn't the U.S. government make the video about Putin's house? It's good point.

Like, in a weird way, we can learn from Navalny and, like, you know, this, Putin feels so vulnerable by this stuff, like, well, why are we doing it, you know? And not in, like, a covert way. Like, in an, like, why not just say, like, you know what? Like, you ever, we know this about you guys and you have a right to know about it, you know? So that's another thing. You can also not let the memory die.

Like, Putin's going to try to, like, erase this guy, you know, like, I'm I think it's important to, like, remind people that this happened. And remind people, that's why, you know, we try to remind people about, like, Boris Nemtlov, getting killed in front of Kremlin. I think you can demand, actually, I think it's useful to demand international investigations. Because they can become pains in the ass. You know, like, like, you open up all these investigations. This is what John and Namsova did with her dad, like, the European Court of Justice and all these other people are, like, you know, investigating. Yeah, for the rest of time, like, there should be investigations into how Navalny died to get at Yulia's point.

So that, like, you know, one day, maybe, you know, 10 years from now, actually, like, there's a bunch of people that go to prison for that. So there's stuff that can be done. We just shouldn't think that there's some lever that we can pull and change Putin right now. Yeah, that's right. It is... No, I think your point about emulating Navalny and his organization and using the billions and billions of dollars invested in the U.S. intelligence community to surface, you know, the next billion-dollar palace

owned by Putin and, you know, release it to the world. is a great idea. I mean, I think, and this is actually, you know, an area where the administration has done a lot of work, right, in advance of the Russian invasion. They were declassifying all kinds of intelligence. Jake Sullivan was talking about this, uh, from the podium a couple days ago. They're incredibly proud of what they think is a novel and, uh, clever approach to using intelligence. I agree with them. I think your idea is a good one in a way they could build on it. Ben, before. One last thing on that, Tommy is like, good legacy is to go after kleptocracy even harder, you know, like go after the oligar.

Like, give, you know, accelerate the process of giving that money to the Ukrainians. Like, you know, do the things that he stood for that were right. Yeah, paging, uh, folks in London. We're looking at you there to crack down some of these kleptocrats. Um, I did notice, Ben, that a friend of the pod, Max Seddon,

great journalists, uh, who's covered Russia for a long time, said that Russians in Moscow are lining up to lay flowers in memory of Namalny and a memorial to gulag victims outside of FSB headquarters. Um, that's pretty brave, given the likelihood that those people will now be monitored forever or crackdown on. It sounds like police have detained several people at makeshift memorials in Moscow. Some of our people are chanting and throwing snowballs at them and shouting shame.

So there are, you know, clearly in these initial hours, some Russians who are doing very brave things and who are incredibly upset and angry about, you know, this brazen assassination of a political figure. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because it'll be interesting to see what kind of protests are. We shouldn't expect that they're going to like topple the government. But like I think you'll see those kinds of demonstrations. And I think what we should say, Tommy, is like, yeah, like I talked about like, you know, a few communications of the guy. Like this guy meant a lot to a lot of Russians. And I feel really bad today for obviously first and foremost his family.

But like, you know, what if you're just some young person that really lucked up to an Avalny and you're living in. you know, not even Moscow, you're living, you know, in Vladivostok or wherever, how you must be feeling now. You must just feel like all is lost, you know, like that they've taken away everything now. They've taken away this guy that was the guy that made you feel strong. And, and again, I hope in that kind of, you know, Russian way, that that isn't channeled to giving up. It's kind of channeled into like, well, you know what?

like, you know, we're going to remember how this feels. And when we have an opening, you know, we're going to take it, you know. But I think we should, I feel bad. I just can't imagine how, how that feels to be like a Russian who wishes it was different. Yeah, and, you know, you're looking around you and, you know, the economy has been wrecked by the invasion of Ukraine and international sanctions. I mean, the whole economy now is basically a war economy. Every male under a certain age is being.

dragged into conscription from parts of the country. So yeah, I mean, I think desperate times like that, you know, oppression can lead to some incredibly brave and bold reactions, and especially when you're inspired by someone like Navalny. I think your point earlier is like, yeah, we probably shouldn't be looking to like a Gary Kasparov to and expect that type of person to lead the next revolution, right? In Tunisia, it was a fruit vendor who just felt so demoralized and disrespected by the government that he lit himself on fire and it sparked off the entire Arab Spring. And so, you know, those are the kinds of things that no one will ever be able to predict. Not us, not the intelligence community, not anybody.

It will come from some grassroots frustration. And it won't be because of some, like, sanction that we're like that we're right. You know, like, that's the thing. It'll be because of what Russia is. The 400th sanction on, you know, foreign assets that no longer exist. Well, listen, Ben, it's super late there in Munich. I'm super grateful that you are willing to get on the phone and talk now. Any final thoughts before we wrap it up?

No, I just, yeah, I'm sorry if I'm, I'm, I, I'd, you know, drone on because I was tired. I guess, you know, my, my, my last thought was it was interesting talking to Navalny in the pandemic when, you know, he, he was home with his family and, you know, he's about my age. And this guy, like, you know, he's a charismatic guy. like he could have moved to the west and, you know, been some celebrity exile guy. And again, that's not to criticize, you know, I think there's a very good place for celebrity exile people. He could have done all kinds of things. You know, it's pretty extraordinary that, you know, his decision, if you watch that Navalny documentary,

it shows the flight into Moscow where he knows what's going to happen when he lands. and he's on this plane and everybody's gawking at him and he's literally playing like call of duty or something he's just clearly trying to zone out you know and but he's looking out the window he wanted to be in Russia he wanted to die in Russia and he wanted to be on Russian soil and there's something really powerful about that and like that's part of Russian history too

like like a lot of people went to the gulags and you know everybody did a turn in Siberia And like, not everybody got out, you know? And I think we just have to remember, this is not just like some icon. This is like a human being. I saw, like, our friend of the pod, Bobby Wine, post about this. You know, like, that kind of guts gives other people courage. And I don't think we should let the message be that it's not worth it.

I think the message should be people will not ever forget that. And that other people are going to step up in their own ways and their own countries because we can't let this win. We cannot let this kind of thuggish, kleptocratic, self-interested authoritarianism that tries to grind you down and make you think that nothing matters, nothing can ever change.

That's what Vladimir Putin wants you to think by killing Alexei Navalny. And I think Navalny, what he wants us to think by flying back to Russia is think that, no, it can change, but only if people are willing to stand up to it. And that's what we should take. Absolutely. And you know what? Vladimir Putin, you might have killed the guy, but you also

immortalized him. You know, I think he's someone who's a historic figure now who will be in every history book, every textbook going forward, even if you try to erase them. You're going to die too, buddy. Well, Ben, thanks again for doing this. A very, very sad day. But good to talk with you about it. It makes me feel a little more helpful. Yeah, you too, man. If you want to get ad-frey episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider join joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at crooked.com slash friends. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events, plus find Pod Save the World on YouTube

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