Pod Save the World - Can Saudi Money Whitewash a Murder?: World Corrupt Season 2, Episode 4

Episode Date: April 6, 2024

In the final episode of this four-part series, Rog and Tommy trace the massive flow of Saudi money into Hollywood, Silicon Valley and Wall Street, and how the biggest venture capitalists and A-list celebrities seem to no longer care about Saudi Arabia’s human rights record. They also look back at the history of the US-Saudi relationship, and how President Biden went from pleading to make Saudi Arabia a “pariah” to traveling there to fist bump Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman in Jeddah. And finally, they dive into the possible motivations behind Saudi Arabia’s investments, from the need to diversify the Saudi economy, to whitewashing the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and changing the subject from other human rights violations. Despite all the depressing news, Rog and Tommy try to find glimmers of hope where grassroots activism and football can lead the way in creating a more just world. All of this and more, on the final episode of World Corrupt, Season 2.

This episode of World Corrupt is brought to you by Zbiotics, pre-alcohol probiotic. Your first drink for a better tomorrow. The more I think about it, the more Saudi almost feels like a startup. Saudi has a founder. Now, you don't call him a founder, you call him His Royal Highness. Muhammad bin Salman was going all over the U.S. and, you know, having dates with Sergei Bryn and, you know, many other tech moguls. MBS would reportedly boast to other Gulf leaders that he had Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner,

Quote, in his pocket. $70 billion in the US alone. That is a staggering amount of money. This is about control. This is about controlling a massive, a financial vehicle that can then itself be used to buy reward or punish thousands of other actors. Welcome back to World Corrupt Season 2. This is episode 4.

This is what we like to call the closer. Oh, the final piece of the puzzle, the sunset. to cap off. Gorgeous, nothing can go wrong day. Is this a breakup pod, Raj? Tommy,

I wouldn't call it a breakup pod because our relationship, I swear, will last forever, mostly because it's based on money, greed,

and geopolitics, sloshing through global sports. I'll be here. I'll find someone like you. Oh, I wish nothing but

the best for you, too, Thomas. I knew this was a breakup pod. That sounded a lot like my wedding boughs. Anyway, we should quickly recap

why we're here and again what we've covered so far. That's an incredible idea. Let me use this occasion to both thank and apologize to our listeners who've been with us for this entire journey of a series. And to direct those of you who may not have listened to episodes 1, 2 or 3 yet, please go back and do so before you get mucked up in this one. There you'll learn about Saudi Arabia's crown prince Mohammed bin Salman and how he's thrown billions of dollars into soccer from buying Newcastle United

in the English Premier League. to luring that walking thirst trap, Cristiano Ronaldo to the Saudi Pro League and how we clinch the ultimate global prize hosting the 2034 World Cup. You know, Tommy, maybe some of the audience is asking if MBS already got the World Cup, then what are we still doing here?

Isn't our job as storytellers complete? And the credits run? Why would we possibly need another episode? Some of the hosts are asking that too, Raj. But the podcasting will continue until morale improves. But listen, buddy, I wish it were that simple. But conquering or buying the world of soccer is just the beginning when it comes to MBS's ambitions.

And understanding why he's pouring money into sports now will help us understand what comes next. Oh, thank you. Raj, I think you mean thank you next because I know you are a huge Ariana Grande fan. I'm just so grateful for my ex. Oh, Tommy, can I just tell you? There's not a single human being on the face of the planet

who backs me into more slightly surreal lyric spouting corners, I could never imagine myself turning the new mate. I am the milly to your vanilla. But in a previous episode, we talked about the PIF, the Saudi public investment fund, which we were asked to believe is led by Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman, but absolutely not controlled by the Saudi government. By the way, how dare you suggest there's any connection at all, Tommy? I'm honestly sick of you just grasping at straw.

I apologize, I apologize. But whoever is in charge of the PIF has been busy because the Saudis have invested. in or hosted events for Live Golf, WWE, F1 Racing, MMA, and e-sports, just to name a few. And in March, the Telegraph reported that the PIF made an offer to merge the men's ATP tour with the Women's Tennis Association, or WTA tour.

It was described as a $2 billion, take it or leave it offer. Oh, that casual two-billy, all-strings-attached offer, known only to MBS and, you know, Lucas Mattson. Can you imagine how hard it was. would be to say, you know what, I think I'll go for the leave it option to $2 billion. No, I absolutely cannot because I would not. And therein lies the problem, my friend. It is very hard to say no to these truly gobsmacking sums of money. And MBS has used the PIF to buy pieces of everything from golf and tennis to Nintendo, Uber and Slack, and about a million other apps

and businesses that we all interact with on a regular basis. They bought shares of Disney, Boeing, city group, you name it. The Piff has been there. There's basically no escaping the Piff in your daily life. I'm going to have to cancel that Gojo subscription, Thomas. But what you're saying here is that essentially, if I'm checking my credit score in the morning on credit karma, taking a bird scooter to work, I'm the last person, by the way, that would ever use a bloody bird scooter, using postmates to order lunch and having someone, walk my dog, Martin Scorsese, while I'm at the office, through the wagap that the Saudi money invested in touching almost everything that we did. When you saw only one set of footprints in the sand, Raj, it was then that the Piff was carrying

you. Oh my God. By the way, that might be my favorite line that's ever come out of your mouth, Tommy. You know me, a big religious poetry guy. But you and I aren't really the key targets here. Sure, we might use the products, but we are not the movers and shakers, so to speak, that he's looking for. MBS is really after the global elites.

We're talking A-list CEOs, investors, and celebrities. Tommy, I've got to tell me, I've got gold status on Delta. I don't like to brag. I also may or may not have a Costco card that opens, I like to think. A lot of doors for you in life. Look, Raj, for you know, free samples on a stick, maybe a deal on paper towels, but I'm talking about private jets, mega yachts because for like the last decade or so,

MBS has been wooing this set with parties, red carpet events, in high-profile conferences that are known as Davos in the Desert. They're technically hosted by the Future Investment Initiative, or FII, which is basically MBS's personal think tank. And they're billed as these gatherings of the minds to have big conversations about the most pressing issues of our time, like AI and climate change. Are you allowed to say Davos in the desert legally without doing that all inverts with your fingers? I don't know if you are.

Sorry, there we go. I do love the notion of a personal think tank. You know, I always thought that was a euphemism for a toilet. which is also where all my best ideas come from. But you mentioned AI, you mentioned climate change. What goes with that? Human rights. I imagine that's a big topic of conversation at these events.

Panel after panel after panel featuring, you know, human rights organizations, dissidents and the like. Big sigh. You'll be shocked to learn, Raj, that the moderated discussions don't involve a lot of discussion about Jamal Khashoggi or locked up women's rights activists. It's more like, you know, a panel full of brave investment bankers. God, big sigh. I'm old enough to remember when that was the name of an academic that we interviewed on World Corrupt Season 1. And we will talk more about human rights issues in a bit. But generally, the who's who of the business community turns up for these events, whether than Riyadh or stateside here in the U.S.

We're talking big shots. CEOs like Jamie Diamond of J.P. Morgan Chase, David Zazlov of Warner Brothers Discovery, venture capitalists like Mark Indreason and Ben Horowitz of the firm. and Doreseon Horowitz, creative naming. You got Jared Kushner there, the Trump cabal. You got Gwyneth Paltrow. She was in attendance at the Miami version of the FII event just this past February. Don't tell me, don't try and just slip it in and not like just rock my world.

He's telling me that MBS has even gotten to Goop, that wellness-driven lifestyle influencing online marketplace of my boogie dreams. First they came for our, this smells like my vagina candle, and I did not speak out because I wasn't, you know. Look, Paltrow, she's less a person at this point, more like a, more I like to think if it was a national heritage installation.

She's got to be protected at all costs, Tommy. I finally learned what a votive candle is. Anyway, at this year's event, which was called On the Edge of a New Frontier, Gwyneth, who is now also a venture capitalist, was talking about fighting the patriarchy at a conference funded by Saudi Arabia where women just recently got the right to drive. Candles, I bet you, Alonis Morissette would have heard that speech

and immediately just quit music, up and gone. Someone finally understands the concept of irony, even less than she does. The bottom line here is that money is the draw at any of these Saudi events. Reporter said that in the first few minutes of this year's Miami-based Davos in the desert, Yasser al-Rumian, the chair of the kingdom's

publicly traded oil company Aramco, and of course Newcastle United, announced plans to spend $70 billion in the U.S. beginning in 2025. So I say that again, $70 billion in the U.S. alone. That is a staggering amount of money. I mean, forget selling Tommy John underwear, which was our bag. We could just buy Tommy Lee Jones and Elton John for that amount of cash.

You can have this, Tommy, for a fraction of that, Raj. But let's hear from someone who's been following these FII events closely over the last few years. I'm Jonathan Geyer, foreign policy writer, covering the Middle East, the world, in Biden's foreign policy. At the time we recorded this interview, Jonathan was actually working at Vox Media, and even he had to make the following disclosure. I work at Vox Media, and Penske Media is one of our part owners, and they got an influx of Saudi, I think, $200 million Saudi dollars

from a different investment group, but that's also closely linked to the royal family. They even got to Jonathan, Tommy. Don't worry, Raj. Jonathan's reporting has been a real pain in the ass for the PIF. If anything, it probably shows the limits of the influence that this kind of money can buy. I spoke with a human rights defender from Saudi Arabia this morning. And, you know, what she told me is this is a police state. Jonathan described to us how the Saudis have used their think tank to open doors.

And why, frankly, Raj, people are just walking right in. This think tank has become a kind of reputation laundering way to get sort of Nobel Prize types, academics, NGOs, UN types, philanthropy folks in a room together, and it's not MBS's name up there, but this kind of one-step removed think tank, I guess the really interesting thing is actually the movement's been going in the other direction. I think it was started to bring in a lot of international clout to Saudi Arabia through this think tank, and it's actually a way that people are trying to get money from Saudi Arabia and kind of reach out and rekindle these relationships with MBS. As you know, Raj, Hollywood is one industry that is always on the hunt for cats.

Brian Grazer, who's produced everything from a beautiful mind, an eight-mile to legendary TV shows like Arrested Development, and 24, he spoke at one of these FII events. Even Rob Lowe made an appearance and spoke about Saudi Arabia's potential role in the industry. Well, I've been lucky enough to travel a bit in the region, and the thing that I was struck with was whenever I would run into just regular young people, how passionate they were about entertainment. And my view is there's no reason that Saudi shouldn't be the leader in IP in the same way they're attempting to be the leader in sports and everything else. You sure that was Rob Leigh? Or was that actually Benjamin Kaye, his character from Wayne's world. Who went to Chinese takeout?

I know a great place. Yep, Bong Tassu, Mountain Dew, Pepsi Cola, Jung Zao Taofan. This guy is good. Sometimes I find it so hard to tell the difference. Honestly, listening to that, it does sound to me way outside of all of this. But throwing out there, MBS, he's thinking bigger than just letting Saudis go the movies, Tommy. This man actually wants to win all the Oscars. Yeah, or maybe just by the Academy.

NBS is wooing Hollywood types with a film festival called the Red Sea Festival, which is becoming a regular stop for film promotion. Sharon Stone, Will Smith, Gwyneth Paltrow, Adrian Brody, Chris Hedon. Hemsworth, all of these A-listers have walked that red carpet. The Saudis have built slick new production studios, and they're putting money into financing films. Vanity Fair had a feature recently that looked at Johnny Depp's bizarre friendship with MBS. It turns out he's financially backed the actor's latest projects.

You know, when I think about Saudi Arabia, it's people, it's leaders, it's conservative traditions, my immediate word association, it is Johnny Depp. It's blow, it's fear and loathing in Las Vegas. his pirates of the bloody Caribbean. Honestly, all of this just screams perfect circle, Venn diagram overlap. There is an Edward Cisorhands joke just sitting here that I'm not going to make upon advice of counsel.

But Johnny Depp isn't the only one who seems to have developed a personal relationship with MBS. Here's Jonathan again. I do probably think that MBS is likable. You know, I mean, there's... I'm sure he won over Adam Newman and Mark Andreessen. I mean, he's a young guy, and if you've been dealing with a very conservative king,

for decades and you have a young leader, I don't think you can put aside the human rights stuff, but certainly these people can. And I think they were convinced. I think if you show up in Riyadh, it looks really different than it did five, ten or twenty years ago. And I think that facade is a very useful organizing idea for Silicon Valley. That's kind of, you know, the disruption and move fast and break things. So the Silicon Valley types are think, oh, MBS, he's just just like us. Some genuinely seem to. Listen to this clip from an FII

conference in March of 2023 that featured Adam Newman, the guy who crashed and burned WeWork, and two of the biggest VCs in Silicon Valley, Ben Horowitz and Mark Indreason. The more I think about it, the more Saudi almost feels like a startup. And Ben, we've talked a lot about

what makes startup startups, but that's the feeling I'm getting right now. Yeah, no, it's really interesting because I tell we were just spent quite a bit of time in Saudi and people, well, what do you mean it's a startup country? And it actually, it's funny because it starts with Saudi has a founder. Now, you don't call him a founder, you call him His Royal Highness.

But, like, he's creating a new culture, he's creating a new vision for the country, he's got like a very exciting plan to execute, and then the people in the country are fired up to do it. And that is the feeling you get. Just your typical startup culture, Raj. Facebook's mantra was move fast and break things. And MBS is trying out.

Move fast or I'll break you. Oh, that classic, Mike Dicker, Bobby Knight, Sir Alex Ferguson philosophy. I think to know one in the football world has given your players, the hairdry of treatment. But Tommy, all these guys worried about, you know, their reputations, their name, their identity. Because ultimately, that's all you've got. If you watch Arthur Miller plays, I'm surprised that giving all. all the human rights concerns we've spoken about in this series, isn't it more backlash to taking money from the Saudi kingdom,

calling MBS a visionary? That exact quandary, Raj, there's a money versus reputation question is what we're going to talk about after this break. World Corrupt is brought to you by Zbiotics. Raj, I got to tell you about this game-changing product that I use before a night-out-with drinks. It's called Z-biotics. Are we talking about night-out with drinks?

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I honestly, I recommend it to everyone I know. It is, I won't go out without it, frankly. And Tommy, this podcast is nothing, if not steadfast, in our commitment to seasonal relevance. It's what we stand for, the ultimate value. Speaking of which, is that spring in the air? Vacations, weddings, birthdays, reunions? Oh my, Raj, there's so much going on. Get the most out of your spring plans by stocking up

on pre-alcohol now. Go to zbiotics.com slash corrupt to get 15% off your first order when you use corrupt at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with 100% money-back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions ask. Remember, head to zbiotics.com slash corrupt. Use the code corrupt at checkout for 15% off. Thank you Zbiotics for sponsoring this episode and our good times. World Corrupt is brought you by the Human Rights Foundation. Are you a world corrupt fan? If no, well, that's pretty strange.

You're actually still listening to this series because we're four episodes deep. We can barely bring ourselves to continue to host it, to be honest. If the answer is yes and you're a fan of World Corrupt, then we bet you're passionate about fighting for human rights all around the world. And if that's the case, you'll want to mark your calendars for June 3rd to June 5th, because the 2024 Oslo Freedom Forum is heading back to Norway, aka 2024 Oslo Freedom Forum in Norway, too, Electric Bugaloo. It's the place to be, Raj.

You'll hear from courageous individuals who are pushing boundaries, challenging oppression, and driving positive change. Don't miss this opportunity to be part of the global movement for freedom and democracy. Visit Oslof Freedomforum.com. Go today to get your tickets and use the promo code, crooked for 40% off of day passes. That's Oslof Freedomforum.com, use promo code crooked. Okay, so if our audience remembers episode two, we spoke about Jamal Khashoggi,

the Saudi journalist who was brutally executed at the Saudi consulate in Turkey in 2018, an act that U.S. intelligence agencies believe was okayed by MBS himself. There's a chillingly cold-blooded murder. And it was so shocking in its brutality and just lawlessness that in the immediate aftermath, there was a collective distancing from Saudi Arabia and MBS in particular. Several leaders, business leaders have dropped out of an upcoming summit. Davos in the desert. One of them is Uber CEO, Dara Khazra Shahi, complicated because SoftBank is one of their backers.

Dara is saying, I'm very troubled by the reports about Jamal Khashoggi. We are following the situation closely. And unless a substantially different set of facts emerges, I won't be attending this conference. You know, a few months back, Muhammad bin Salman was, you know, sort of going all over the U.S. and, you know, having, you know, dates with Sergey Brin and, you know, many other tech moguls. And, you know, it just feels like this whole, this kind of romance between Silicon Valley and the public investment fund, maybe not coming to an end, but certainly people are rethinking that relationship right now. Endeavor, which is an LA-based holding company that owns the UFC, WWE, the talent agency WME, that reps Cricket Media, by the way,

in global sports and a media company called IMG, they returned a $400 million investment from the Saudi sovereign wealth fund. Saudi Arabia's glitzy Davos in the desert conference went from the biggest boldface names to slightly less bold-faced names, the deputy Raj to the boldface. Tommy, you know it's getting serious when we're talking about about font reductions. Oh, what we're talking about?

Strike-through next. When do we get to the Helvetica partner story? But that little moment of moral clarity, it didn't last long. And here we are, just a few years later, we're listening to the WeWork guy, talk about MBS like he's Steve Jobs. And, Roch, as much as I love, given these business leaders a hard time,

it's not like the US government was doing much better, because Shogi was murdered in 2018 during the Trump administration. At the time, MBS would report boardedly boast to other golf leaders that he had Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, quote, in his pocket. And Trump himself didn't even try to hide the fact that all he cared about was Saudi cash. Keshogi is not a United States citizen. Is that right?

Or is that right? It's a permanent resident. Okay. We don't like it, John. We don't like it. And we don't like it even a little bit. But as to whether or not we should stop $110 billion from being spent in this country, knowing they have four or five alternatives, two very very much, very good alternatives, that would not be acceptable to be. So basically the lesson is, with enough money, you can get away with murder. As long as you pay off the right people. Now, activists were hoping that everything would change when President Biden was elected.

During his campaign, Biden promised to get tough on Saudi Arabia. Here's a clip from the MSNBC Washington Post Democratic primary debate back in 2019. And I would make it very clear. We were not going to, in fact, sell more weapons to them. We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are. There's very little social redeeming value in the present government in Saudi Arabia.

Oh, 2019. An era that I like to refer to as BT, that would be before Tiger King. Oh, my God. I'm never going to financially recover from this. I miss it so much. But listening to that, I mean, that was some start break from the historically cozy U.S.-S.-Saudy relationship, right?

You're half right. Biden came out swinging during the campaign, but once he got to the White House, some of those punches turned into a fist bump. Oh, half-right. I always like to say, it's 50% better than normal for me, Tommy, so I'll take it. But what does a fist bump have to do with all of this? Are you talking about my dancing, DJ Pauli D. and Vegas kind of fist bumps? I want you to know that I spend most of my waking hours thinking,

about and talking about your dancing at DJ Polly D. But in this case, I'm referring to the literal fist bump Biden gave MBS during a visit to Saudi Arabia in around 2022. Much less fun. Much less fun. When Biden first took office, he actually did put pressure on the Saudi government. The Biden administration released a report directly implicating MBS in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. They froze U.S. arms sales to the Saudis that had been approved by the Trump administration,

and they announced that the US would cut off support for the Saudi-led military campaign in Yemen. This is usually the part of the podcast where you kind of pivot with the word butt and then proceed, are going to be honest, to depress the living hell out of me. But then Russia invaded Ukraine.

Good morning from the Ukrainian capital, Kiev. Gunfire and explosions have been heard here and in the second city of Kharkiv. Russia unleashing a brutal, military assault on Ukraine. The largest invasion of a neighboring country in Europe since World War II. An unprovoked war in Europe is now underway. February 24th, 2022, a day on which like so many of our listeners, I'd just never forget

the horror of everything that took place. Truly awful, Raj. I mean, it still is. And the Russian invasion of Ukraine quickly reorder geopolitics, especially in Europe, which before the war was importing about a quarter of its energy from Russia. And once the war broke out, European countries were left scrambling to find other sources. Much of Britain was wondering if they'd be able to even afford their heating bills. Entire nations across Europe didn't know if they'd have enough natural gas to make it through the winter.

Exactly. And the White House decided that the only way to make up for Russian oil and gas being pulled off the market was to turn to other major producers like Saudi Arabia, which is how Biden ended up making a visit to Saudi Arabia, where he fist-bumped with a very pissed-off-looking, seeming MBS. The Dap heard round the world. Real politics, it's a lot of being an Everton fan, Tommy. You know, Everton, for those of you don't know, are a team that do a lot of, as my dad calls it, not winning. And the darkness is as depressing as it is inevitable.

But I heard you say the word pissy and annoyed and irritated MBS. Hearing that he was angry in this moment, explain what was really going on. Sure. So when Trump visited Saudi Arabia in 2017, King Salman himself met the delegation on the tarmac at the airport. But when Biden showed up, he got snubbed. And he was only greeted by the Saudi ambassador to the U.S. and the governor of Mecca. Now, maybe this sounds dumb, Raj to our listeners, but the pearl clutching could be heard all the way in Los Angeles from the protocol office in the State Department. I've got to say, I for one, I'm totally comforted by the fact that MBS refused to pick up Biden from the airport himself.

I'm like, it's 2024. Grab an Uber for God's sake. By the way, the Piff, remember, owns a huge chunk of Uber. So in a way, aren't we all just being greeted by Saudi Arabia at every airport we ever leave? If there's only one thing you learned from this podcast, it's that the PIF is not Saudi Arabia. They are totally different entities. Our lawyers told us to say that. But the tarmac snub, that was not the end of it.

Months after Biden's visit, OPEC Plus, which is this Saudi-led group of oil-producing nations, that includes Russia, by the way, decided to voluntarily cut oil production, and they did it just weeks before the U.S. midterm elections, undercutting Biden's efforts to stabilize energy prices around the world and reduce gas prices in the U.S. Biden was furious, and he vowed that there would be consequences. But those never really materialized. Oh, can we just shout out repression?

It's not a sponsor of this podcast, but it might as well be. I know you well. Was it Sigmund Freud who said, unexpressed emotions will never die. They're buried alive and will come forth later in ever uglier ways. Ah, Sigi Freud. That's good. That's good to hear a little Freud quote in this show.

So look, this whole situation, it was plenty ugly, Raj. Human rights organizations, political commentators, and even Jamakashoggi's fiance were outraged by Biden's trip to Saudi Arabia. Here's Sarah Lee Whitson again, who we spoke to in episode two. She's the executive director of Democracy for the Arab World Now or Don. I do believe there were some in the Biden administration who came in believing, okay, that's it. We're ending the war in Afghanistan.

We're ending this war in Yemen. We're pivoting to Asia, God damn it. We're going to deal with China. And that's what we're going to do. And they failed. And they fell right back into the same sinkhole in which successive administrations, Republican and Democrat have sunk into in the Middle East for, I believe, a variety of reasons. One is a narrowly set of defined national security interests, which I think are fallacious,

tied to the need for cheap oil, for which Saudi Arabia is, of course, key. The key to my heart is, of course, night with drinks. But it sounds like the key to any American politician's heart is cheap gasoline. It's certainly the key to getting reelected. that and creating jobs, which leads us to the second of Sarah's frustrations. Second is the arms purchases that these countries provide. Saudi Arabia is the number one weapons purchaser of U.S. weapons in the world for many years. And so rocking the boat of the relationship with them meant rocking the boat with the defense

industry in the United States as well. And of course, Israel. The Biden administration from the very get-go bought into the strategy of securing Israel by securing its status and relationships with Arab governments, never mind the fact that these are Arab governments controlled by dictatorial regimes themselves carrying out heinous abuses. So I think Israel, oil, and bombs have remained the sirens that have sunk repeated administrations' efforts. So Tommy, I'm going to shock you with this question with its profundity, you're kind of nudging me towards the realization that change in Washington is just much harder than it looks.

But like regrowing your hair after you decide to evolve into a natural bald. But that's another podcast. How do you understand and explain this epic flip-flop by the old Biden administration? So as a poorly reviewed 2009 rom-com starring Meryl Streep once said, it's complicated. God, that is the single one.

I always admire it. I hate it, but I always admire it, the single longest walk to make a movie title joke that I've ever been on. I've made my fair share of diversions, Tomic, respect. Not even a well-known movie, but honestly, I've done worse. And it gets worse for Biden, Roch. How about that transition? Oil and gas prices, they're at the heart of this policy challenge.

But as much as we'd like to transition to green energy overnight, for now at least, the world is using fossil fuels. And Saudi Arabia is sitting on the mother load. God, I want to talk more about Merrill Streepin. It's complicated. Brace yourself for another round. And the movie segue, Tommy. Muddlerud just happened to be the name of a 2019 crowdsource documentary

about one mom's quest to replace cars with bikes, which, let's just say, is a decidedly unsaudio. Raj, what did we talk about, about Googling things that I say during the recordings? Busted. It won't happen again, Tommy. And by won't, I mean, it will. But it's not just about oil. The US and Saudis have extremely close military and intelligence community ties, especially when it comes to fighting terrorist groups like al-Qaeda

encountering the threat from Iran. It's honestly ironic that Saudi Arabia was home to 15 of the 199-11 hijackers, and now we need the Saudis to combat al-Qaeda. The war on terror, baby. We have always been at war with East Asia. Don't ask too many questions. But the Biden team was also concerned that if they pushed too hard, Saudi Arabia would forge closer ties with Russia and China.

And on top of all of that, as Sarah said, the U.S. has been pushing Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalize relations. It's quite a long to-do list, Tommy. But you know what they say about the young, like 38-year-old millennial prince, NBS? You might be stuck working with him for a long, long, long time. Exactly. King Salmon is 88 and he's technically still in charge. The Biden administration calculated that making up with MBS was worth the cost. And, you know, whether we like it or not, MBS has a lot of power, especially when it comes to influencing U.S. domestic politics. A spike in gas prices right before an election can be devastating to the party in charge.

But another guest we spoke to in episode two, Khaled Al-Jabri, thinks the U.S. could take a much firmer stance. As a reminder, his father was a right-hand man to Muhammad bin Nayef, the former Crown Prince, who MBS pushed out. And now MBS is going after Khalid and his family. His brother and sister were taken prisoner four years ago in Saudi Arabia and haven't been seen since. This is the United States. And you have an array of foreign policy tools. It doesn't have to be the extreme of pariah or the other extreme of, you know, lopsided fist bump. There has to be, you know, I don't know people hate that word now, but quit pro quo, positive inducement, try to manipulate the behavior.

And I think, look, you know, bullies in that part of the world, they're very transactional. and they're getting a lot of, you know, concessions from the US for nothing in return. So in the grand scheme of things, does it feel like MBS got off scot-free after Koshouji? Zero penalty, zero repercussions for him. You know, I asked that exact same question to Khaled as well. Do you think he paid a cost? I think he did. I think it densed him for good.

I think that, you know, the ghost of Khashoggi will, you know, loom large forever. So costs is different than accountability. I don't think he was held accountable. And I think actually to the extreme, I think he got validated in a very scary way. Because, you know, if you do something like that, like one of the most grisly, gruesome, stupidest murders in history probably, and you get away with it, what do you think the lesson in BS gets? Oh, this was a near miss. I'll just have to do it again, but make sure I don't leave any fingerprints. But with time, like, you know, humans have short memory.

and at the end, like in an increasingly capitalistic world where like, you know, that part of Saudi Arabia has a lot of, you know, money. Like you're always going to have people who are going to put their business interests before human rights, unfortunately. Hey, want to read some ads? Oh, respect. Seen a segue that, Tom Tom. And when we come back, Vision 2030, Saudi Arabia's manifestation dream board for the near future, where they pinned a picture of Ronaldo's abs and a soccer ball to the wall. Tommy, it's my favorite part of the podcast. The end?

No. It's our weekly segment talking about Bart with our good friends at Wise. You should know that after four episodes, support for this podcast and a flow message, they come from Wise, the account that helps you manage your money all around the world. Hit me with the good stuff. Tom Tom. Dining in Dollars? doing business and bot, wherever life takes you, the Wise account lets you send, spend and

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Hello, good friends of the pod, and if you've been enjoying World Corrupt, Crooked Media's mashup with me, Roger Bennett, and the Men in Blazers Media Network, they've got some good news for you, especially if you let's say, soccer curious.

I'm mostly still curious about how and why you convinced me to support your favorite team, Everton, who managed to get me out of bed at obscene hours on the weekend only to lose. That's not a hard sell for football. I don't know what is.

It's good for your character, Tommy. That's what you've got to tell yourself. But it is the beauty of it, the feeling, the sense of connection, the highs, the lows, the players' beautiful neck tattoos. Nothing says subtle like a little tribal band on the esophagus, Raj. And we cover it all at the Men and Blazers Media Network, where we release soccer podcast five days a week. Search Men and Blazers wherever you get your pods. And we've just recently launched a special podcast feed, dedicated to. solely to the women's game.

It's called, because we're very original. The women's game. Again, very subtle. Settledity, never our strong suit, Thomas, but the women's game is hosted by World Cup winner and your fellow Mosshead, Sam Uis, who is a slice of human magic. Again, women's football fans,

check that out by searching the women's game and smashing that subscribe button. And finally, for those looking for a quick football fix early in the morning, search for our early kickoff podcast. which is a daily micropod produced out of London overnight featuring football's biggest headlines, ripped from Europe's back pages, all delivered to your ears in 10 minutes or less. Honestly, everything you guys make is great. Everyone should check out the Men in Blazers Network.

But I do have to ask, Raj, when the hell are you sleeping? Oh, Tommy, I've got to make what I can now. You know, before I'll lose my hair or something. So Tommy, we've talked to all the reasons that the rest of the world just can't quit. Saudi Arabia. essentially they've got too much money, too much oil, too say no. But if that's the case, the rest of the world needs them, then why is MBS investing so much money into sports and technology and everything else?

That, my friend, is the trillion-dollar question. There are a number of theories. One is that MBS is well aware that the Saudi economy has to diversify as the world reduces its reliance on fossil fuels. One of the first things MBS did after becoming Crown Prince was to announce a plan called Vision 2030. The Saudis describe it as a strategic framework to create job opportunities for the youth, improve the standard of living for citizens, promote social and cultural change in the country.

No biggie. Just going to F around and, you know, just go and create the next gen of jobs, raise the overall standard of living, totally transform the country socially and culturally. I wonder what I'll tackle on Tuesday then. Look, I'm with you. It sounds pretty good, but Saudi Arabia's got a long way to go. About 40% of Saudi Arabia's GDP is made up of oil revenue. And mind you, these are figures that we're getting from the Saudi government,

so take them with a grain of salt. The private sector only made up about 40% of the Saudi economy until recently, and the PIF has stated its plans to invest more than $267 billion into the local economy to create 1.8 million jobs. But more recently, the Saudis have admitted that they're not going to hit some of their goals. Sometimes when you reach for the stars, you only get to the, I guess it's the ozone layer. But we've got to give them an A for effort, right?

Take it from me, some low-rent podcast host. Transforming an entire nation's economy isn't a quick and easy task. But, look, before we give this guy a letter grade, I do think we have to start questioning some of the investments that he's been making. Well, at least now I can see how those nine-digit contracts for Ronaldo and Namar seem a little overly generous in the grand scheme of things. My friend, if you think those are bad, let me tell you about a little project called Neum. Neum is open for business.

The new future being built in Saudi Arabia to redefine business, livability and conservation. Environmental, social and governance is at the heart of everything we do. Tommy, you know me. I don't pretend to be a Billy Shakespeare, but Pedant Rodge says, isn't the future by definition new? And also, why would we need to redefine livability?

Honestly, I prefer to leave the definition of living right where it is, thank you. You and me both, buddy. But look, these Neum videos, they sound like AI-generated McKinsey PowerPoint and nablibs. It's all buzzwords and jargon. But this project, it's comically ambitious. Neom is an entire region of the country that will supposedly consist of 10 different project or regions, as they're calling them. That includes an octagon-shaped port city.

That's my favorite shape of Port City. And by the way, I assume that's where all the ultimate fighting will ultimately take place. Honestly, that's a good pitch. You should probably consult for them. They will pay you a lot of money for ideas like that. There's also a floating island resort. There's a ski slope. Hang on.

Is it an octagon ski slope? No, I don't think so. I only ski. I just want to make this clear. When I do skiing, I only do the skiing on the oxygen ski slopes. But hang on, I've missed the lead here a little bit. I will confess, skiing in Saudi Arabia. The one thing in the world that's even maddened

in the concept of Johnny Depp being in Saudi Arabia, are we skiing on sand here, Thomas? Oh, no, my friends. We are talking about covering a Saudi mountain with man-made snow, sustainably, of course. Yes, because they did promise to, quote, redefine conservation. But my favorite part of this boondoggle of a project

is one called The Line. It's a proposal to build a 110-mile-long, linear city. So imagine two massive skyscrapers lying parallel to each other with a mirrored facade for some reason. Imagine the dumbest design idea you could possibly think of with no roads, no cars, and it will eventually house up to 9 million people. I can imagine Johnny Depp's very interested in living at a place called The Line. But did you say linear city, which is mind bending? Like, how do people interact with each other?

I mean, like if my kid has a play date on the other side of town, I'm just going to be like, all right, off you pop, go on, ride your bike, 100 miles. Johnny might be able to pedal for her. But look, let's just say that this vision has been panned by most architects and city planners as just being completely counterintuitive and silly. But worse than that, Raj, privacy advocates point out that there is no more efficient way to spy on your entire population than to stuff them all into one building. But look, MBS, he's going to spend about a trillion dollars building this thing anyway.

And by the way, how long is this going to take? Supposedly, it's all going to be completed by 2030. And the Saudis keep releasing these promotional hype videos like this one to show the progress that they're making. The line is a civilization revolution, a transformative new city being built in Niam, Saudi Arabia. One of the most ambitious projects the world has ever seen is progressing rapidly.

God, it's funny how life works. We say to each other in our retirement, in the line. I never thought I'd end up here. But I can't help but notice, and I am very slow on the uptake. All of these projects that you're pitching me, they do seem to be geared towards one thing, which is like a lifestyle which could be defined as jet setting and luxury. That's right. I mean, Ben Hubbard, our guest from episode two, who is the New York Times Istanbul Bureau Chief and wrote an excellent book about MBS, had some similar thoughts. It seems to me like probably not the best use of $500 billion.

Saudi cities are not particularly livable. They tend to have a lot of traffic problems. A lot of them don't have very good infrastructure. Jedda, where it does rain, doesn't have much of a sewer system, and so it often floods. You know, why not take some of that money and fix up the cities that you have where Saudis already live and make life better for them? That is the key question, Raj. How is any of this going to make life better for the Saudi people?

Of course there is a role for sports and entertainment in any society, and it's smart politics to give people more entertainment options, especially young people. But how does buying a soccer team in England accomplish that goal? Not only that, Tommy, but the Premier League team, or owning one or trying to breed a successful one, it is a tough business. So many clubs lose money, lots of money. And God help your bank account, if your club gets relegated,

push down the division like in baseball. Can you imagine being moved from, the major leagues into AAA baseball. That is what happens in football, and it is a constant threat, the uncertainty, the chaos, the financial implosion. Yeah, you're on the edge of disaster any season. And look, the same can be said about a lot of Saudi Arabia's bets

in Hollywood and Silicon Valley. Sometimes you get lucky and you own a piece of the next Facebook, but far, far more often, the companies fail and your investment just goes to zero. Oh, gut health. But that brings us to back to the core question of all of this, which is why is MBS doing it in the first place? A lot of people we talk to think it's about branding and soft power

in changing Saudi Arabia's image abroad. Here's Ben again. I think it is a broader effort to rebrand the kingdom in people's minds that when people, certainly when I started writing about Saudi Arabia, you had mentioned Saudi Arabia. And it's like, people were like, oh, it's like incredibly conservative, intolerant Islam, or it's oil, or maybe it's Osama bin Laden, or like,

these are the things people knew about Saudi Arabia. And that was kind of it. And sports is like a really good way to put your name out there. It's something that obviously has fervent fans across the world who like care about Newcastle United or care about, you know, golf. And, you know, it's just, it's another way for Saudi Arabia to get its name out there in a place that's not associated with human rights or not associated with oil or not associated with, you know, various criticisms that the kingdom has received. Khalid agreed. It's influenced. it's branding, is soft power, it's changing the channel.

McKinsey told him, live is non-viable. You're going to lose $2 billion a year. Like, if I pitch that to my five-year-old kid, he'll say, don't invest. But MBS went against the recommendation of his board and put the money in it. He'll put more. It's very interesting. It tells you it's not about financial returns and therefore don't use the diversified economy excuse because that's not what's going on here.

But Sarah saw an even darker mode at play. This is about control. This is about controlling a massive, a financial vehicle that can then itself be used to buy, reward, or punish thousands of other actors within the elite American economic system. It is a vehicle through which millions and millions, tens of millions, probably soon to be hundreds of millions dollars, can be funneled, laundered, if you will, to President Trump's, golf resorts, since it would be perhaps too distasteful for them to pay him directly, this is a way to do it indirectly. So I think it is about indirect influence and power and control.

You are not going to see these companies, should Saudi Arabia say, execute 10 women for tweeting in the next year, have the capacity of the independence to say, that's it, we're done, we're out. Because the financial cost of doing. so the shareholder duties of doing so are just too high. Well, Tommy, it's time for the finale. We're going to do a dance number or is it just a musical one this time? But before you tell me exactly what we're going to do, let me just tell you, as ever, our time together, it's been uplifting and inspiring.

You've made my soul sore. My faith in humanity has been what restored? Is that the word I'm looking for? Yeah, sure. Look, someday we're going to focus on some problem that we can actually solve together. Like, hey, how about the Chicago Bears offense? Maybe we'll start with something a little easier, like climate change. We'll go with that.

But look, Roger, no one should feel hopeless. But that doesn't mean this problem can be solved easily. The truth is there are no easy answers. We can't snap our fingers and prevent big money from warping football beyond recognition, especially if FIFA is on the take. And we can't force the U.S. government to break all ties with human rights abusers like MBS or naively act like the US won't always have to balance

competing interests in foreign policy. Tommy, I thought you said this was the don't feel hopeless part. I'm getting there. I've been thinking a lot about something Khaled said when we spoke. Remember, this is a guy who lost everything because of MBS.

You can't return home to his country, his father's life was threatened, and his siblings are being held hostage. Yeah, when I listen to him, tell his story. I mean, Calid is a bloke who has every reason to feel angry and worse, hopeless.

Yeah, but even he doesn't want to see a total rupture in the U.S.-S.-Saudi relationship. He wants a middle ground between Biden declaring Saudi Arabia to be a pariah state and Donald Trump making Saudi his first visit as president, one where we take a clear, consistent approach to human rights so that countries know what to expect from us, an approach that includes both incentives for improvement and real consequences for human rights violations. You say that, Tommy, but isn't a problem that countries,

they say they care about human rights, but then they swat those very concerns aside whenever there's a crisis, like the Russian invasion or gas prices go up a couple of cents. And right now we're living in a world where it just feels like crisis, crisis, another one every day. Rod, you are exactly right. But that is where we, the voters and the citizens, come in. We have to hold these politicians accountable. And again, this won't be easy, but it is possible because as frustrating as the U.S. human rights record can feel today, it used to be way worse. Is that your way of cheering me up? Yes.

In the 1960s and 70s, when guys like Henry Kissinger were in charge, the U.S. government openly scoffed at the idea that the U.S. should take human rights into consideration. By the way, Henry Kissinger, one thing about him, huge football fan, but I do assume everything you're saying is mostly because Kissinger was too busy flying around the world, staging military coups. I mean, basically, yes. But then, after the disastrous war in Vietnam, Watergate, and the success of the civil rights movement, citizens started demanding that the U.S. do more to live up to its values at home and abroad. Congress put forward a series of recommendations for how the U.S. government can prioritize human rights and foreign policy, and they passed laws requiring more transparency, as well as laws forcing the executive branch to cut off assistance the countries that consistently violate their citizens' human rights. Honestly, always reassuring to remember that as bad as things can get, they were once worse.

I mean, that's quasi-hoopful, I think, is the turn that we're looking to nod towards hootfulness, but it's obviously not enough. How can we build on that work? So, you're right. We can demand that the current laws be applied consistently. We can call on both the White House and Congress to update and toughen these standards, and we can find ways to reduce our reliance on countries with a history of these human rights abuses. How do we do that?

In the case of Saudi Arabia, Raj, we're back where we started, baby. Oil. If the U.S. can shake off its addiction to fossil fuels and transition to renewable energy, then these petro state dictators like MBS won't have nearly as much political leverage over leaders like Joe Biden. More plug-in hybrids, less fist bumps. That's exactly right. We can make the future better, and we know this because we've done it in the past. All right, I'm done.

Off my soapbox, passing the mic to you. I want to hear about this from a football perspective. would like you now to smoke a little opium. Well, Tommy, I think the final message that we want to deliver here is that all is not lost, even though it kind of is. But where there's football, there's love,

and where there's love, there's got to be hope. Is that a black-eyed peace song, Ratch? I would love Fergit to sing those lyrics, but until she does, I'll just say, Tommy, I do believe it, because There's so many remarkable examples scattered around the world of football. I think you call them green shoots of optimism. I mean, you look at Morocco, a conservative nation

where public displays of affection and homosexuality are both illegal. But then women's national team, the Atlas Lionesses, surely one of the top seven best nicknames in the world of sports. They hosted the 22 Women's African Cup of Nations. To witness that was utterly delirious, even more so to see their team, Serge, make an audacious finals run before falling just short to South Africa.

But a year later, rise again. At the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia, and it became the first ever women's team that was North African and an Arab country to play in a World Cup and the sight of New Oliya, Benzana, running out as the first player in history to ever wear a hijab in that tournament.

It was a beautiful moment, and it's one that gave me and the people watching around the world in that global spotlight, that word, Tommy, hope. And during that very same tournament, the president of the Moroccan National Women's Soccer League said, we now see families bringing their children, their daughters, to play soccer. And it's magnificent. That really is beautiful, Raj. But how do we ensure that that sentiment turned into lasting change?

You know, not just these nice vibes, but something that could be a little more permanent that won't evaporate into the ether. Well, let's head south of the border. Let's go down Mexico way, Tommy, which I do know, sounds a bit like a James Taylor song. But it's also a place that is undergoing a remarkable to witness women's football revolution right now. You may have heard that women defeated the United States

for just the second time in history last month during the women's gold cup. And down there, Mexican lawmakers have introduced two football-related pieces of legislation in the last year. which I actually find quite fascinating. One is called the Jenny Hamoso law. Jenny Hamoso named for the Spanish World Cup hero who became an ongoing, quite grueling, globally renowned footballer

because she was subjected to assault by her own Federation president, the Spanish Federation leader Louis Rubiales, who kissed her on the mouth, on the podium in her moments of victory. Yeah, that guy is an enormous creep, and that was a truly awful moment for soccer. Yeah, I mean, the world watching, a horrific moment acted out in a full global spotlight

in a moment of glory. And I'm happy to say some action did ensue. Yeah, I remember seeing in Spain some of the biggest stars boycotted the women's team in protests and the outcry got so loud that Rubiales had to resign, right? Yeah, but in Mexico, they watched this and the ensuing legislation that was enacted went even further. Senator Josephina Vasquez Motta sponsored the bill to ensure that to be safe spaces created in sport for young women. And just earlier this month, Mexico Senate ratified amendments to the federal labor law,

which would apply those labor laws to professional athletes mandating a base salary that applies equally to both men and women. So what are we trying to take away from this, Ratch? Suppose what I'm trying to say here is, is Tommy, football, it's not a perfect place. Far from it. I mean, anyone that's listening to Will Corrupt Season 1st,

one or season two will be well versed in that reality. But it is also one of the most perfect mirrors of the world that surrounds it. And I've always loved that in great times that is a reflection of the societies, the cultures, the traditions of the nations who take the field. But it's also you can see within football the reality of politics and culture and geopolitics. And that reality is often ugly. But there are moments when football can break from that truth. and create glimmers of hope.

And in those moments, your spirit sore. And it can seem like the purest game in the world, one loved by people from Rio to Riyadh, from New York to, well, old York. And football can be a thought leader. It can be a pathfinder. It can be an example for the rest of us to witness and follow. So that when football does do the right thing, it inspires, it surges, And it can be acted as a platform for goodness to find its voice, Tommy.

Hope? Is that you, my friend? At the very least. I think it's probably Merrill Street playing the role of hope in the form of a bald man with an indescribable, unplaceable accent. I feel like it's like Fifth Beetle kind of move to Brooklyn. But look, we also can't forget that soccer or football is the most popular and most watch sport on the planet. And when you think of the World Cup, it's not just the players that come to mind. It's the armies and seas of fans in the stands on the streets and in their homes.

There is power in numbers if people choose to use it. I couldn't agree more, but we'll say don't forget to add world corrupt listeners to those numbers, Tommy. Well said. And as always, thank you to the listeners that have come with us all the way to the end. Because sadly, Raj, this is the end. This is the end of season two of world corrupts. Until next time, buddy. Oh, yes, season three, we're going to go deep on Cape Winslets in the regime.

her effort to bring the World Cup to her autocracy and I swear to you Tommy I'll be here I'll be here between now and them for nights with drinks, days with drinks waiting, watching hoping and not hoping for season three

World Corrupt is an original podcast collaboration from Men and Blazers and Crooked Media's Pod Save the World alongside Roger Bennett I'm your host Tommy Vitor The Executive Producers and writers of World Corrupt are me Roger Bennett my great friend Tommy Vito and the remarkable Men in Blazers, Jonathan Williamson.

From the crooked media side, our executive producer is Giancarlo Bizarro. Our producer is Alona Mankovsky, and our associate producer is C.J. Feroni. For Men in Blazers, our writer is a magnificent bearded wonder with three names, Zach Lee, Rigg, with all audio editing and mixing coming from the unbearably talented, mighty Max Jaffe. Original music and audio engineering by Visele's Votopoulos. Our video producer is Kirill Palaviv with additional support from Milo Kim and David Tolls. Social and promotional support for Menin Blazers

provided by Charlie Kitt, Randy Kim, Evan Ramis, Sophie Morrison and Hayden Gray production support from Jordan Dalmedo and a special thanks to Meninblazers Managing Director, Scott Debson and Marties. Special thanks to cricket media is Julia Beach, Adia Hill, Kayla Moriardi, Ewa Okulate, Ashley Simon,

Bernardo Serna, Madeline Herringer, Matt DeGrope.