Pod Save the World - From Putin to pandas with Karen Attiah

Episode Date: September 2, 2020

Ben and guest co-host Karen Attiah, the Global Opinions editor for The Washington Post, talk about Jared Kushner’s coddling of dictators and his trip to the United Arab Emirates, human rights in Egypt, the latest on the crackdown in Belarus and its implications for journalists, far-right protestors in Germany who threatened to storm the Reichstag, and the global impact of the late Chadwick Boseman.

Welcome back to Pod Save the World. I'm Ben Rhodes, and the show is going to be a little different this week. Tommy is out on vacation and also celebrating a landmark birthday. So I will be hosting along with the Washington Post Global Opinions Editor, Karen Atia, who you've heard on the pod and is really one of the truly inspiring and interesting voices in journalism today. So we've got a really great show. But before we dig in, there's just one piece of housekeeping I want to do. Yesterday was National Poll Worker Recruitment Day.

And guess what, even if your family does not mark that holiday, you can still sign up to be a poll worker. When polling places don't have enough poll workers, they close, which leaves many voters unheard, and this is not the election to do that. So in an election year where voting has already become more complicated by this pandemic and this president, we cannot risk losing the votes we need. Vote Save America is working to recruit 10,000 poll workers. So if you are healthy and able, sign up to be trained and work as a poll worker at your polling location. It's literally the most important thing I think you can do this election day to make sure that votes are counted.

Find more info on Votesaveamerica.com slash every last vote. One more note this week. There's a new Missing America that's dropped, episode four, disinformation. You will hear the unbelievable or perhaps all too believable story about how Facebook came to Myanmar and brought with it, the spread of hate and disinformation and helped contribute to ethnic cleansing. But you'll also hear what we can do. about that. You'll hear from a lot of different voices with a lot of different ideas about how to regulate big tech and make sure that disinformation is a virus that we can treat instead of a virus

that spreads unchecked around the world. So check out Missing America. Okay, I'm very happy to be joined by the editor of the Washington Post Global Opinion section, truly one of the essential resources to make sense of today's world. Karen, thank you so much, Karen, for riding with us today being a co-host. Oh, thanks so much, Ben. This will be a lot of fun. I think. Yeah, I mean, as much fun as these topics can be. So we've got a great show here. We're going to start hearing a little bit from Karen about her book that's coming out.

And then we'll briefly drive by the Republican National Convention of last week. But that will lead us into a discussion of Jared Kushner's magical mystery trip to the Middle East this week. Some discussion of Egypt and human rights. The latest from Belarus, the latest from Beirut as well. then some anti-mask protests in Berlin that also led to far-right protesters storming the Reichstag, not something you ever want to see in Germany. A strange story out of Rwanda. Then we'll talk a little bit about Black Panther in the legacy of Chadwick Boseman. And Karen, to end it, there's some good news about a panda that we can talk about. So with that, I'm ready to go here. So let's start, Karen,

I think you have some news recently was announced you have a book coming out. I wanted to just give you a chance to share with our listeners what the book is, why you decided to write it. And unfortunately, I think it's also going to tee up some of the topics we'll talk about today. Yeah, thanks so much. So, you know, as some or many may know, I, during my time, you know, at the Washington Post and editing global opinions, I was the one who hired and recruited Saudi journalist Jamal Khashokchi. Actually, I think next week or so will be like the three-year anniversary of when I first got in contact with Jamal. And then as, you know, so many know, a year later, he was killed in a Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

And so for me, I, you know, many people may know or saw me, you know, really trying to do all I could, honestly, to advocate for him, and not just for him, but for all of us journalists, anybody who wants to speak their mind without fear of being killed or jailed or threatened in any way. And so I decided to write, just really honestly, like write my sort of remembering, remembrance, my memory of that year, working with Jamal, who he was, that I remember. and a bit of the behind the headlines, behind the scenes of what it was like, honestly, like the human story, what it's like just to be plunged into an international scandal and the largest U.S.-S.-Saudi tension or diplomatic rift since 9-11.

And so that's what the book's about. I'm still finishing it. It's hard to know kind of where the story ends. But yeah, we're looking at releasing in March of next year, inshallah, God willing. So, yeah, yeah. And it's, it was hard. It's still, he was one of the writers that I felt very strongly about. He was anybody who knew him, who's kind, he was honest, he was respectful.

And still to this day, it's been almost two years. And I still can't wrap my head around what happened. our government's response, the Trump administration's response, it still sickens me. So, yeah, I just hope that, you know, everyone can have a chance to just kind of see a bit of a different perspective on the story. Well, we're going to get into both our government's response and, you know, some other stories, frankly, about journalists who are under threat. I mean, one question I did just want to ask you, I'm always amazed when you meet people like this at the risks that they're taking and how they live with them.

I mean, how much did you have a sense from Jamal at the time, you know, that he was aware of the cloud over him, you know, may not have envisioned that that could lead to something as extreme as what happened in the consulate. But as an editor in a relationship with someone who's challenging, you know, an authoritarian system like that, how present was that that sense of risk in Jamal's life and work? Yeah. I mean, I think it was present, and yet there was a sense that, even from me, my own belief as well, there was a sense that, well, he was outside of the country, he was safe. He was riding for the Washington Post. And I think for both of us, there was a sense that those two things offered him a measure of protection. still, you know, and looking back, and I'll speak about it in the book a lot more, but I look back and maybe there are times where I think I should have known better, given what has happened sometimes to some of the other writers that I've worked with and other authoritarian regimes. Again, I think the difference is or was for them was that they were still in their countries,

but Jamal was outside and he was respectful. all many powerful people in Washington knew him. And the chilling part about that is that it didn't keep him safe. And it didn't keep me safe in some ways. So yeah, it's it's kind of, I mean, like all of us, none of us, you know, really know when our time is up, right? And we just carry on. We do, we live our lives.

We always think there will be more time. And so I think that story also is part of that. what I hope to achieve. We were just going about our lives. We had no idea what was awaiting us, so awaiting him. Well, look, everybody should check out Karen's book, you know, be available for pre-order. Yes, it's called Say Your Word, Then Leave. And it's, well, you'll see why I named it to pick up the book, but it has a special

attribution to Jam Out and how he saw the world. So that's the title. And yes, coming soon. and I'll be happy to speak a whole lot more about the experience then. Well, you know, people should check it out for many reasons, including, you know, the fact that it's really at the nexus of so many things are happening in the world today. It was kind of chilling, putting together the topic list today,

and, you know, figuring out how many of the topics we're going to discuss have some nexus to what happened to Jamal. And, you know, starting, unfortunately, with the R&C last week, which, you know, I think it's easy for people to see the kind of authoritarianism on display here as some extension of the absurdity of American politics. But, you know, when you see essentially a cult of personality, an authoritarian pageant really at the White House, ignoring any laws or norms against the mixing of politics and government in our country, you know, take that seriously. It was also kind of a strange performance last week. we won't relive it in detail because who wants to relive it in detail. But you saw this kind of simultaneous cult of personality about Trump and these conspiracy

theories that we've come to expect from Trump's Republican Party. And a lot of speakers who, you know, insisted that Trump is doing things that he's not doing. And so we heard, you know, simultaneously a lot of race baiting combined with efforts to elevate, you know, black and brown surrogates, even when they didn't necessarily know they were supposed to be talking to the RNC. People forced to participate in a naturalization ceremony at the White House. People taped in public housing in New York City who had no idea that the video was going to be for the RNC. But when you can't really make an argument, these are the things you have to do. And on national security, Karen, I was struck that we heard about a Trump presidency that

doesn't really exist. If you listen to the RNC speakers, you'd think we have peace in them Middle East. And with North Korea, you'd think Iran had given up its nuclear program instead of accelerating it. You think that Trump has ended endless wars instead of escalating them. One of my favorites, Rick Rinell saying that Trump has charmed Chancellor Angela Merkel, which flies in the face of everything that we've seen and prompted Angela Merkel to laugh when she was asked about it. So that's pretty much the rundown, an effort to kind of simultaneously say that everything Trump has done is great and often to say that Trump has done things that he hasn't at all done. But I wanted to focus on the values piece of this. And Tom Cotton was one speaker

who said that we need a president who stands up for America, not one who takes a knee, not particularly subtle there. He accused Joe Biden of coddling dictators in America's backyard and around the world, which is obviously ironic. It brings us to our first topic here. Jared Kushner's tour visiting many dictators. So, you know, the, Essentially, Jared will be doing exactly what they accused Joe Biden of doing throughout the week. He's in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE, meeting with Crown Prince Mahm bin Zayat, who's the de facto leader of the United Arab Emirates, obviously touting this normalization deal between Israel and the UAE.

Other stops could include Saudi Arabia, where he'll no doubt meet with Maham bin Salman. We can talk about that. And Bahrain, Oman, and Morocco have been floated. other countries that they've suggested they want to normalize ties with Israel. The plane carrying this delegation from Tel Aviv to Abu Dhabi had the word peace written on it in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. Again, bears repeating that while normalization is great in terms of Israel and the UAE, these are not countries that have fought a war ever or in any state of war. The Palestinians reacted, as you might expect, saying the prime minister of Palestine, saying that,

this was a very painful moment and a blatant violation of the Arab position towards the Arab-Israeli conflict, which had tied normalization to the Arab peace initiative, which envisioned two states, not just the Palestinians essentially accepting surrender terms. But, you know, what Jared clearly wants is more nations to normalize relations with Israel right before the election, and there's rumors that he wants a kind of splashy signing ceremony at the White House. We talked about this a little bit. What are other nations getting? Bibi Nanyahu is getting a win in terms of normalization by doing nothing other than promising

not to annex further Palestinian territory in the West Bank for now. The UAE, I think, you know, has been under a growing cloud in Washington, which we can talk about because of their real leadership with Saudi Arabia of the war in Yemen, which has created humanitarian catastrophe and a strategic disaster. also Maham bin Zayyad, we can talk about this, you know, he was the first major supporter in Washington for Mahmab bin Salman when MBS was a relatively unknown, not even 30-year-old prince. NBC was a man who vouched for him, used all of his connections in Washington to say, this is a reformer, this is a guy we should trust and invest in. So for MBZ, he gets to do a favor for Trump, who he, I'm sure once reelected. And if Biden is elected, you know, MBZ probably thinks he gets himself out of the pouncy box here with Democrats by doing something with Israel.

And he was also reportedly promised advanced U.S. fighter aircraft. Again, pretty strange gesture for the U.S. to provide advanced aircraft to a country that has killed civilians with real impunity in Yemen. And MBS will get, no doubt, a photo op with Jared just a couple months before our election. So, so Karen, there's a lot there. But, I mean, what is, you know, having worked with Jamal, who talked about Saudi Arabia, which is obviously at the center of how these Gulf countries, including the UAE, approach the U.S. and the world, I'm sure having looked at NBC and this deal between the UA and Israel, what do you think is going on here with Jared's trip and what jumps out to you?

So much here. All I can say is I'm glad we have panda content awaiting us at the end of this journey of pageantry. I really like that you brought up the word even just pageantry when it comes to the Trump administration, what we saw at the R&C. And to me, it's almost this, like, ironically fitting time. If people remember, for a long time at the beginning of the Trump administration, there was a lot of talk speculation. You know, what foreign country is Trump who's notoriously, you know, travel averse, honestly. What country is he going to visit first? It was Saudi Arabia.

That was the first foreign trip. And we remembered that it was stacked with pageantry, that he, the Saudis spent millions upon millions. We remember the sword dance, the orb, the glowing orb. And, you know, to fast forward to now, you know, three years later, we know that, you know, Jared Kushner's, his whole, you know, his, you know, his, peace de resistance has been this deal of the century, which is the normalization of ties between Arab countries and Israel. And, you know, as you said, only UAE has signaled, well, or symbolically

signaled these normalizations. You know, I think when I see this and thinking about even just Saudi Arabia, Jamal, and even just MBZ, Mohammed bin Zayyad, who, as you really said, is the one many people say who has been pulling the strings behind MBS. And in many ways, I think the UAE, I mean, outside of kind of Washington circles, journalists circles,

for the most part, UAE, Dubai, Abu Dhabi still enjoys a, decent reputation. In the wider, I guess, imagination, you know, you still have people who talk about vacationing in Dubai and it's, the Emirates has put a lot of effort into its public image, you know, and I know in my line of work, you know, we write, you know, we're critical of Saudi Arabia. That's no secret. We're quite critical of the human rights situation. Obviously, you know, furious, still furious, still critical. of what happened with Jamal Khashchukchi.

But, you know, the Emirates are very sensitive to their public image, and have spent on all sorts of money and all sorts of capital to preserve this image of a tolerant, open, progressive society. And so, you know, but underneath that has been a lot of repression And a lot of, I think one way to also think about what's happening with the UAE and this push to try to normalize relations with particularly these Gulf countries. So Saudi Arabia, UAE is using Iran, right, or positioning Iran as the common enemy, as the natural reason why there should be alliances between the UAE, Saudi Arabia and Israel, because, well, you know, Iran is the common threat, right? And so you've been seeing a lot of this rhetoric throughout the Trump administration, even in their horrific and like shambolic response to Jamal Khashokchi's murder,

was like, yeah, that was bad. But we have to fight Iran. So, you know. So it's just a continuation of that. And look, we know like Jared Kushner and MBS, you know, in terms of, you know, having a photo app. We know that they're buddies. We know that they're what's that buddies, you know. And we know that he.

you know, according to New York Times, that Jared was advising his, you know, sleepover buddy to weather the storm after Jamal's murder. And so it's just like straight up, like impunity, straight up just, you know, if we do see that photo, you know, it's just another reminder that they, do not care about human rights, about the backlash, about any of that. So, you know, it's almost, yeah, two years to the day after the secret trip to Saudi Arabian. It's kind of like deja vu all over again, trying to microwave this deal of the century in a couple months. And it's all pageantry, Ben. It's all pageantry. Yeah, you know, one of the things, I mean,

that always struck me about the UAE is that MBZ love to counsel people in Washington, you know, as if he could explain the Arab world to them. You know, let me tell you, almost kind of like an alliance of Arabia type thing, how to manage this region, how to think about this region. And almost always his advice was that you should not trust the people of the region, that the people of the region are too dangerous, that they're not ready for democracy. It And let's face it, Abu Dhabi and Dubai are great cities, but they are not free cities, particularly for the people of the Emirates. And there have been increasing efforts to restrict free speech, even for foreigners, detentions of foreign academics, harassment of human rights activists. But I was always struck by this idea of a leader telling foreigners, in this case, Americans, you know, don't trust my people, you know, just me.

and MBS over here in Saudi Arabia. And in a weird way, you know, that's kind of what Trump and Jared do. I mean, there's a common thread of this authoritarianism. It's amazing to me that, as you say, Jared, you know, clearly wanted to help his buddy MBS get out of the bind he was in with Jamal Khashoggi. Not only did he not at all care about what happened to Jamal Khashoggi, he just saw it as kind of this inconvenience that had to be gotten through, even though I think most Americans, you know, would obviously side with the Washington Post journalist, the U.S.

resident who was murdered in this way. It just says something, you know, about how little accountability Trump and Jared feel that they're not even worried about having a photo op with MBS two weeks for the election, you know, that they think that, you know, having a big gaudy, you know, show around, you know, what is not even a complete deal, the normalized relations between the UAE and Israel, you know, overwhelms the concerns about the fact that this guy's like a murderous dictator. I mean, it, you know, it's a real test of whether Americans care about these types of things, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just, honestly, it should be, it should be a campaign issue. If I were on the Biden team, you know, free piece of advice, like, if that happens,

that should be a part of, Trump should have to answer that. Kushner should have to answer that. you know, again, memo to journalists, they should have to face questions on that. And again, like you said, considering their R&C rhetoric about not coddling to dictators, this literally, if anything, MBS is being behind the murder of Jamal Khashokchi, introduced MBS as a murderous dictator to many Americans, again, outside of sort of the Washington, the Washington Matrix, that was his introduction. as a brutal, impulsive, somebody who's just not to be trusted with the future of the Middle East because specifically he does not care about the lives of lives, period, whether it's Yemen,

whether it's journalists even this year, very prominent Saudi activists who have been jailed, have perished in jail, Abdullah al-Hamid, Ali Shahi, Lujain Hathul, the, woman who was famous for trying to defy the ban on women driving still sits in jail, celebrated her 30th birthday in jail in July. And so to me, you know, but to me I also, it's a bigger question, you know, than just Trump. And as you said, you know, this question about dictators and folks like MBZ who can come to Washington and sell governments and officials for years, not just now, but for years saying like, oh, you know, don't worry about my people.

They're backwards. Like, just trust me. I can fix everything. So what does I also say that we ate that up? I didn't eat that up. But I'm just saying like others have eaten that up and created this climate now that lives, Arab lives can just be discarded. So, I mean, I think that is something that I really wrestled with.

I struggled with in the wake of Jamal's death. So, you know, but yeah, like I said, it's just a, and also a question of like, what would the Biden campaign or what would a president of Biden presidency look like in relation to these countries? Yeah. You know, Biden has said, you know, I, you know, I don't coddle dictators like Trump. And obviously, you know, the U.S. has a sketchy history when it comes to that. But I think that should be a moment for the Biden campaign, not just to attack Trump, but like, okay, articulate your vision. Yeah. How would you deal with, how would you do with them?

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And look, you know, I mean, we, I think in the Obama administration, we had tensions with these guys over Iran chiefly and over President Obama's initial decision to break from from Husni Mubarak and Egypt. But time and again, you know, there's this kind of gravitational pull towards giving, you know, largely a pass to a guy like MBZ. or not overtly breaking from MBS, even when he went to war in Yemen. I think that mindset that was present in the Obama administration, even when we didn't get along particularly well with these guys, is what has to change. And the thing to look for is whether not only the rhetoric changes,

but whether the policies change, whether we keep selling them advanced arms, whether we keep supporting a war in Yemen, whether we're vocal about human rights abuses. And actually, one test of that is, is another country in the region I wanted to talk about, which is Egypt. You know, I think a lot of Americans don't fully know the story of the extent to which the 2013 really military coup, which the Obama administration did not call a coup and should

have called the coup, that removed Mohamed Morsi, the democratically elected Islamist president of the country and replaced him with Abdel Fatal-Sisi, a really general who's become really a brutal dictator, that coup was finance, supported, advocated for openly by the UAE in Saudi Arabia. And in Washington, they were very aggressive. And I remember reading, you know, all manner of opinion pieces and think tank reports about how this was the will of the people in Egypt. And the dynamic they set up is that there's a choice between them, the autocrats, or some vast instability, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood, terrorism, you know, the risk of conflict with Israel.

And they, you know, make it a binary choice, us or this kind of unseen danger, this other. And you had a recent piece in the opinions section by Lisa Massimino and Neil Hicks, you know, that detailed, okay, well, who are the people behind these draconian measures in Egypt, which has tens of thousands of people in prison who should not be there often for political offenses? including one of the most prominent human rights activists, who's actually not in the country. So he was sentenced in absentia. But the piece talked about someone who was, again, one of the more prominent activists for Egyptian human rights, sends to 15 years in prison for criticizing Cici on Twitter.

I mean, that's all he did. And they sent him for 15 years. I mean, and you guys have published a lot on Egypt. I mean, do you have a sense that Egypt has kind of been forgotten? I mean, Cici was looking over that orb with Trump and King Slam. of Saudi Arabia, as you mentioned. Why is Egypt kind of fallen off the radar screen? And frankly, what would you want to see a Biden administration do, given that Egypt is still one of the leading recipients of American foreign assistance if Biden's elected? Yeah. I mean, I think that the

CC regime, and I, again, just thinking this all makes me flashback to conversations I used to have with Jamal Khashukchi. And he used to be, uh, Egypt was going to go. to his heart, right? And he wrote frequently about the, you know, so-called Arab Spring and about how crushed he was. In many ways, crushed he was that Saudi Arabia and UAE played a huge role in suppressing that. And I, you know, from my experience, like, it has, we do what we could or still do everything we can to speak and write and advocate against this authority. authoritarianism. I mean, the numbers of not only people in jail, but I think what people need to understand is the tactics that CC, the Emirates, Saudis use is like, they will go up to your family. They

will threaten and throw your family members in jail to try to get to you. And it causes immense strain on those who dare dare to criticize the CC regime. And honestly, it's one of the biggest, I think the Egypt is one of the biggest blights, I think, on the U.S. record in terms of openly supporting a dictator and undermining what happened in 2013 in terms of a democratic election. And I mean, I think that, you know, what I would like to see from a Biden, I didn't want to say Biden regime. Yeah, yeah, the administration. I just, yeah, the administration because, yeah, you know, we, we're not there yet in terms of actual regime.

But to be, to put like more than just words and rhetoric to support for human rights is to end weapons deals is to impose. and I know there's huge debates over sanctions and their effectiveness, but to impose legitimate consequences for top individuals, top members of the CC regime that engage in these abuses. And like one thing, you know, you spoke of President Morsi, he passed away in prison last year. And there was very little kind of, little kind of. outcry, remembrance. I just remember thinking it was it was very muted. This was the sitting and

democratically elected president, in pass away in jail, you know, to be specific, he was in prison. And many Egyptian activists feel like he was, he died of purposeful neglect. He had multiple health issues. And so just this real drive by the CC regime to eliminate any forms of dissent, any forms of the Muslim Brotherhood has is ongoing, is ongoing, you know, Mohamed Sultan, the Egyptian American activist who, you know, also has been targeted, his family has been targeted and, you know, had to resort to trying to even sue to alleviate this sort of pressure. And basically, the U.S. government sided with the Egyptian government and in that.

So it's just really, it just rings so hollow. And I honestly, I wish that U.S. journalists, when the Trump administration, not regime, administration, you know, makes these claims that we push back with these facts. Yeah.

I think we, I think the press should be doing a much better job at being able to respond to this in real time. Yeah. No, I think, you know, Muhammad Sultan is someone we both know in common, and his story is really chilling, both from when he was in prison and tortured in Egypt. And I actually have an episode of Missing America, the podcast I'm doing coming up, where he tells that story that kind of culminates with the Egyptian

government letting ISIS recruiters into his cell to try to recruit him. They want the opposition to be radicalized. It's a justification for all those weapons that we sell them. But now, of course, as you mentioned, his family's being rolled up in Egypt. He's suing his torture. and the U.S. government is siding with the Egyptian regime. Trump is called CC, my favorite dictator. Again, it kind of counteracts the Tom Cotton talking point that, you know, Biden's one of the coddle's dictators. I think one of the lessons, though, is that sometimes on the left, we are very critical. The right-wing dictators, the Republicans, very critical of Cuba and Venezuela, but America needs some consistency here. One country that we have agreed about, largely,

although Trump is silent about it because probably his relationship with Putin. Putin is Belarus and Lukashenko. So this is going to complete here our kind of tour of dictators. The latest, we'll kind of gloss up against him later. But, you know, we've been following us on the show. Putin recently just a couple days ago called Lukashenko on a 66th birthday to pass on his warm wishes. So I'm glad they could have that moment together. They issued an Andine statement about strengthening bilateral relations, but that can feel a kind of ominous if, you know, the strengthening bilateral relations might be Russian intervention on Lukashenko's behalf. But the crowds have not diminished in Belarus. The people clearly are fed up.

But the other thing I wanted to ask you about, Karen, is we've seen the detention of dozens of of foreign journalists, including from outlets like the Associated Press. So clearly kind of a concerted strategy here by Lukashenko to try to keep foreign eyes and foreign journalists from reporting on what's going on there. What is that about? I mean, you've looked at these issues. Why does a Lukashenko focus on foreign journalists? Why should people care about it? And what is the value of what those journalists are there to do? Honestly, I mean, it seems after Lukashenko got that, you know,

vote of possible, you know, military support or police support for his, you know, to help back him up against these protesters that he was definitely emboldened. And, you know, I think in many ways, is to see to see detentions and attacks on on journalists period, on people period, obviously, on people period. But on journalists, and particularly foreign journalists, is a big middle finger to the international community, right? Yeah, yeah. Basically, this is a president. And also getting support from a president, Putin, who has.

his own record of targeting journalists, assassinating, I mean, Alexander Navalny, you know, sitting in a poisoned in a German hospital as we speak. We know that this is, that Lukashenko is getting support from a regime that doesn't give a crap about journalists, about dissenters that they, you know, will take you out, right? So I think that that's how we should interpret, not just the crack. They want the international community to see. Yeah, it's a show of force. We don't care.

It's a show of force, in a way. It's a show of impunity. And it's a show, I mean, and ultimately, it means that they are interested in blocking out what's happening there. In a way, it does kind of show that they care about their image, I suppose. But it is, you know, in my years of covering journalists and press freedom, I once was an analyst for Freedom House looking at these issues. It's very hard to put sort of the genie back in the bottle once a government decides that it's open season on journalists. Often it can follow up with harsh laws, repressive laws against journalists. I would be on the lookout for, you know, how our international journalist organizations

going to respond if there's a ban or it becomes enforced some sort of ban on foreign journalists. I mean, things get scary once any government decides to turn the lights out on foreign covers, decides to block internet, block social media. You know, I think right now we're talking about journalists, but this is just kind of the sort of escalations that you see. So it's troubling, but it's also a bit inspiring perhaps, or not perhaps, definitely that, you know, millions of people in Belarus are still taking to the streets.

But it's worrying. Again, another reminder that, you know, my chosen profession for many around the world is extremely dangerous. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, you make the point about, you know, when the lights are out, what do you not see? I mean, we don't really see what's happening in Jingjiang province in Western China, where a million Uyghurs are in camps. We hear reports mainly from the good work that, like, human rights organizations do, some investigative journalism, but not people there. We don't really see what's happening in Kashmir right now where Modi's turned off the internet intermittently and crackdown on journalists. And Belarus feels like, you know, the people there get it, that if they lose this fight, they could end up in one of those blocked out places,

you know, and that speaks to the stakes involved. So the theme for next couple stops here, Karen, these are places you've lived, very worldly, you know, life the last couple years. One was Beirut, another place we've been following here. Maybe this is a potential sign of hope, or maybe it's just more the same, but they have a new prime minister, Mustafa Adib, who was most recently the Lebanese ambassador to Germany. He was designated prime minister, which means he emerged from the complex power-sharing agreements that have kind of governed Lebanese politics since the end of their civil war. The prime minister has to be a Sunni. The president has to be a Mernite Christian. The speaker of the parliament has to be a Shiite. So there's a delicate balance here.

And what this suggests is that Adi was able to secure the broad enough backing to take this job. You know, honestly, it's one of those jobs that, you know, not a lot of people would want to volunteer for, Prime Minister of Lebanon because you're navigating between all kinds of different factions, including sectarian factions, his blow of the, obviously the Iranian back group that is incredibly powerful in Lebanon. But he's replacing the previous prime minister who had to resign after that massive blast in Beirut and after kind of an economic collapse has been unfolding in the country for some time. So things are not doing well in Lebanon, obviously.

And today President Macron of France visited. France has been a key international donor. And clearly the aim here is to see whether Lebanon can take certain steps to get international support to stabilize its economy, to rebuild from the blast. So Karen, I want to ask you as someone who's lived in Bayrude, what is on the plate of this new Prime Minister. You've got the blast. You've got COVID. You've got an economy that had been collapsing. You've got Macron, a key international visitor there in the country. What needs to happen next in Beirut? And why should that matter to people? Why is Lebanon important? Yeah, absolutely. And just for clarification, I spent a good amount of time there last year just for reporting for my books,

but I don't want to claim that I live there. So I'm just, you know, prefacing that, but I mean, just after, you know, not just being there for some time, but also, you know, just following, again, Lebanese policy, again, to bring certain things back to the Gulf and to Saudi Arabia, you know, starting from, you know, even when just this, this sort of yo-yo turmoil when it's come to the government. I mean, even Sad Hariri, the the former prime minister who was kidnapped by MBS in basically in 2018, forced to resign and then stepped back in. Then we saw the protests, the massive anti-government, anti-corruption protests in Beirut

and across Lebanon last year, which then, you know, forced to reary to resign again. And while I was there, and first of all, I mean, I, Beirut is, is an amazing city and the Lebanese people are amazing, but I think one thing that struck me while I was there that, you know, maybe ties to even just the pain and the agony that ordinary Lebanese people are feeling. I just remember being on the streets in Beirut, like, near the Hamra district, and there was like trash piling up on a lot of the streets, and you could, it just kind of permeated the air. Like, I could smell. kind of sheisha and orange blossoms and then it's like, and then trash.

And just talking to people, they were like, this is just a sign. Like the government hasn't figured out how to, you know, the corrupt factions within the government haven't figured out how to make enough money to get the trash collected properly. And it was literally spilling out like into the streets. And you could just get the sense that like people in Bari, were just so tired. of the incompetence of the corruption.

And, you know, as you mentioned, even going into, before COVID, Lebanon was facing a massive economic downturn. And, I mean, Lebanon is so important, not just for its geographical, proximity, yes, to Israel, to Syria, and all of that. and it's been at the forefront in many ways of the refugee crisis, the Syrian refugee crisis and what that has meant for, you know, for the politics and the geopolitics in the whole region, including Europe, honestly.

So it matters immensely what happens, what happens in Lebanon. And it's just this, I mean, like to hear about the blast, which Bayrude is still, trying to literally pick up the pieces from, I think I read a story today that the price of glass and concrete has skyrocketed. Like, people are trying to rebuild their homes and they can't because there are shortages. And if there was ever a country that deserved this horrible blast from a few weeks ago, the least it was Lebanon. And so, you know, what I've been hearing from Lebanese friends and journalists is really, you know, well,

Well, in many ways, I wish all this still was getting the blast and the aftermath was getting more international attention. But one thing that they do caution is they're skeptical of their government. Their government has, they feel that their governments have screwed them over and not, not invested in their people. And so I think that, you know, they're on, they're skeptical and they have every right. They have every right to be given the situation. And again, given COVID, but, you know, I hate to be cliche, but they are such a resilient people, but they've been through so, so, so, so, so much. And to hear that, you know, some of my friends even in Beirut saying that the blast in the

aftermath feels worse even in some respects than even those who had gone through the Civil War just because of this years of trying to pick themselves back up, trying to pick themselves back up. So, you know, I think that, you know, and it's no surprise that Macron would be the first, be the first to kind of really offer a show on the ground of support, although I saw a picture of him and he wasn't wearing a mask in Lebanon. Yeah.

That would be important. You know, I think that one of the things, you get questions about, right, is like why should the U.S. provide assistance to places like this? I mean, one way to think about Lebanon is just how much the people there, a lot of this is not their fault. And so, you know, you've got Iran backing Hezbollah, and that's been a longstanding relationship. So you've got a foreign interference from Iran. You've got Saudi Arabia, as you point out, literally taking hostage, you know, the former prime minister of the country, Hariri. And Riyadh wanting to suggest that they control him, that they want to control politics in Lebanon, not Iran.

So you have this kind of proxy war between Saudis and the Iranians. And then you've got refugees by the millions in the country, not their fault, you know, from Syria, from other conflicts in the Middle East. So this is a place and a people that has had a lot of stuff happen to them, that it's not of their creation. And in that kind of circumstance, I think the international community, whatever that is anymore, does have an obligation here to kind of help fill the gap, you know. Yeah. And not only that, but like, I think one thing people, I mean, just in my time as a journalist and even living and reporting from my parents' home country of Ghana to I was a reporter in Curacao for a year. the Lebanese diaspora and business communities around the world. I mean, there were questions about how this downturn was going to, because there are a lot of Lebanese abroad who also send money home as well. And so, you know, what happens in Lebanon also in many ways affects so many communities and

diaspora's around the world. So yeah, I totally agree with you. It's just like, to me, this is such an argument for supporting people and for a people-first policy, no matter what the, what America decides to do, a people-first policy and not so much, you know, the government, you know what I mean? Yeah, not the geopolitical, the geopolitical intrigue. Yeah. Is what captures everybody's attention, not these actual people who live. The actual people who live there and who are caught, like, in many ways.

And I, one thing, you know, when this is all over, Beirut is a place I really want to go back too. But if there is ever a people who's government who, who I wish people who've never been to Lebanon can understand how, yeah, Christians live amongst, Lebanese Christians live amongst Muslims, live among, it's such a cosmopolitan place in city in many ways and even in the government, this trying, it's a, it's a country that tries to balance so much. Yeah, yeah. So many different interest, so many different backgrounds, religions, but then it also means that balancing also means that there's proxy conflict. And it's just, yes, the Lebanese people do not deserve. Yeah, no, it's, they deserve a break. They're very high on the list of people around the world

that need a break. Another place that you spent some time working on your book is Germany. I have to say, I was a little surprised to read the headline in New York Times, quote, far-right Germans try to storm Reichstag as virus protests escalate. Not a headline you want to read. The better news, obviously, is that they fail to storm the Reichstag this time. And in fact, actually, you know, on the surface, a lot is going well in Germany. Chancellor Merkel's government has handled the virus, you know, very well among the world's democracies. You know, the schools are reopening.

They've been able to kind of keep the economy afloat, keep the deaths low. And yet at the same time, you have this kind of bizarre protest, people may have seen on TV, you know, tens of thousands of protesters in Berlin, this kind of weird mix of people, conspiracy theorists, kind of anti-capitalists, people who don't want to wear masks. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was there because of his kind of anti-vax ideology. Yeah, it was a good scene there, kind of Star Wars bar situation. But, you know, to give credit to Germany, everybody spoke up. You know, so the head of the Green Party condemned this. Nazis with imperial flags try to storm the Bundeshoegg recalls the darkest period in our history, he said.

The president of Germany called it an unbearable attack on the heart of our democracy. The head of Merkel's party said it's intolerable for the right flag to fly at the parliament. So the good news is, you know, there are antibodies against this kind of thing in Germany. But how do you explain a country that seems to have it together and yet has still this undercurrent of kind of conspiracy theory that could explode in like a demonstration like this that we saw. Yeah, it's not to use like virus puns, but here we are. I mean, the mass our screen, you know, it seems for many other things, many other grievances. You know, and it's even last year when I was in Berlin and in Germany, there was many more,

many more stories about far right, the far right influence, basically, creeping up in all aspects of politics and in life. I was in a part of Berlin and there weren't like too far from us. There were, you know, yeah, kind of like small neo-Nazi demonstrations. Of course there were counter protest and I think it's important to also highlight that there are plenty of Germans and Berliners who see this creep, this kind of more far right near Nazis, unophobic, racist creep, and are trying to do what they can against it. But it was definitely in the air last year when I was there in stories about how this infiltration was happening even through the police forces and the military.

And I think finally this year, well, after a long, long time, the German government kind of kept a lid on these reports, tried to, you know, present a rosier picture of what was happening. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's part of the same far right creep that we've been seeing around the world. And it's just, it's quite, it's telling that in many ways the originator of Nazism, hasn't defeated it over all this time. And I think, you know, even while I was there, there was a, you would hear, but I was learning about that there is a sentiment

of people who have long felt that Germany has had to apologize for far too long for what happened during the Holocaust, that there are even, you know, people who still believe that Germany has already paid enough of a price. and who secretly harbor a lot of those ideologies. And so in many ways for these mass, these anti-mass protests, to come out as a way for people to proudly fly their far-right flag, for people to, in many ways, air out their grievances,

which I think in the New York Times article or opinion piece makes, you know, the point that this is a screen for people to express grievance. And so the question is grievance about what? About, you know, a country that, again, largely has weathered many of Europe's economic crises well. And there's plenty of, you know, plenty to say about that and plenty to say about how they handled the coronavirus well. The mass and the measures worked.

I wish Germans could come to Texas and see what it looks like when this virus is out of control. But, you know, it's, it's, it speaks to something else. And it speaks to, it speaks to conspiracy theories. It speaks to a broader fight about disinformation, fake news, misinformation. And it's really just, yeah, I mean, obviously as a black woman to hear that, masks are bringing Germans back to slavery. I just, you know, the side eye for me, the eye rule of the century. But it's something to watch.

And it's something to watch as the world is grappling with this virus without a vaccine. And how this virus is going to become a certain type of avatar in a way, a shield, a vehicle for people to express and agitate. against other norms, honestly, against experts, against facts. And to see this happen in Germany, I mean, we've obviously had

some of these protests here, but so much for being the leader of the free world. Yeah, well, they're not, as you said, it shows that nobody's immune to it, right? And you have to stand up to this everywhere. And it shows that, you know, history never really goes away.

You know, that may be the slowly awkward transition to another country that's dealt with a genocide, Rwanda, that has been seen as, like Germany, a success story in the sense that the economy has recovered, kind of a development darling of Africa under President Paul Kagame, the Tutsi who helped end the genocide and has governed the country ever since. People may have seen a strange series of headlines in recent days that the hero of the movie Hotel Rwanda, a man named Paul Bussesabagina. I hope I got that right.

But I remember well reading the book about this and watching this movie. Don Cheadle played Paul, who was a Hutu, who had a hotel that sheltered people from the genocide in the capital of Cagali, who were fleeing the violence. He subsequently moved out of the country, became an opponent of Cagame, and was recently charged with terrorism by the government of Rwanda. People may have been looking at this and thinking of Don Cheadle, thinking about this inspiring story of a man, sheltering people. What happened here, Karen? You want to enlighten our listeners about why even a place where Rwanda that seemed like it had climbed out of its past is not fully out of it. I mean, you know, to see – and one thing about Rwanda, and particularly Hotel Rwanda, and honestly, you know, just keeping in mind that, you know, Hotel Rwanda for a lot of Americans who's – saw the movie really helped to bring awareness to what happened in 1994 with the genocide

and the Hutus and Tutsis. And honestly, the irony in many ways is that, you know, Pal Kagame, who was in the military during that time and then became president after the genocide in many ways, uses the horrendousness of the slaughter that happened to justify policies that put to centers in jail, that chill journalists that have sent opponents fleeing into exile. And so the idea that the man behind the story that helped raise the problem, profile of Rwanda and what happened during that time is now in jail again to our earlier you know fun conversation straight up impunity like yeah yeah yeah you know and and and it's just

I mean this this happened what two days ago so you know it's it's a case to watch and I think it's a case to for for journalists and and activists and people to pressure on but in my you know time at the post I've written on Rwanda a lot and written about how Kagame is such a, is such a darling. Like, he enjoys, you know, coming to, to the states and speaking at places like Harvard and at the UN. And I'll often hear people defend him to me saying, well, but he keeps the country from sliding back into war. And again, it's back to this. And this is where I think that a lot of, like, the authoritarian in Playbook is pretty, is it like a standard one. It's like a global one. I mean, it's back to

the same idea that without me as these people's dear leader, these people are not capable of living together peacefully. So you need me, dear West. You need me, America as Kagame to hold it together, to keep these people from killing each other, and to keep Kagale clean, because that's what everybody tells me. They're like, yeah, but Kagame has removed plastic bags. from the streets. Like, he's an enlightened African, basically. And I find that quite racist in some ways. And I find it also shameful that, again, other reasons to enable dictators. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, there were plenty of reports of him, you know, targeting dissidents outside of Rwanda during the Obama years, even at the same time that, you know, the metrics that people look at

these African countries that are recipients of foreign aid in terms of health and education or the performance of the civil service would be good. But I mean, I think that Obama used to speak about this, and he did this at the African Union to a lot of attention in Africa, that, you know, there are these guys like Kagame who, who in their own mind, whether it's just for pure pursuit of power or whether they actually believe it, they think that they're indispensable. And the idea is if you're actually building a democracy, that should be able to be handed off to somebody else. You know, um, uh, I, you know, the other thing that, that jumped out of me

when I saw the kind of last couple items we had teed up was, uh, you know, Hotel Rwanda kind of plays into the Western view of Africa. What's the movie that people saw about Africa? Oh, it's the movie where they're slaughtering each other with machetes and, and the guy, you know, who runs the hotel that, that the white people stay at when they visit, you know, does this heroic thing. And, and it was a good and well-meaning movie. I don't. I don't want to speak badly at the movie, but I think it speaks also why to our next topic, Black Panther resonated so much because it was a different presentation of Africa than, say, Hotel Rwanda.

And, you know, as much as this is a sad topic because of the tragic loss of Chadwick Boseman, I also think it's kind of a hopeful topic because, you know, I remember traveling with President Obama to Johannesburg, South Africa. 2018. And Ryan Coogler came with us, the director of Black Panther and writer. And, you know, he walked out to speak to these hundreds of young African leaders. And they went absolutely berserk. I mean, in a way that, I mean, I'm used to people freaking out when they see Barack Obama or Michelle Obama. But I'd never see anything like this on their feet yelling. Everybody was doing a Wakanda forever. And you got the sense that all these kids, all these young people saw themselves

differently because of Black Panther. And this is just South Africa. And I'm trying to think about when Chadwick Boseman died, the legacy of like, how do young people, not just black Americans, but young Africans, see themselves differently because of not just that film, but all of his work, you know, embodying all these heroes. I know you've written a piece about this that will air the same day that the podcast comes out. I mean, what do you think the legacy is of Black Panther? And how would you describe not just the impact?

on black Americans, but on the African continent. Gosh, that anecdote about Obama and Ryan Cugler even gives me chills right now. The only thing I can think of is, have you seen that gift with Obama where he's sitting in the chair and he's throwing his hands up? Like, wait, what? He's still like, what about me? What about me?

I'm sure that was... I had in my phone a great picture, though, of Obama and Cougar each doing Wakanda forever. Someday I'll post it on some social media platform and try to break the internet because it's very... Now's the time, man. Like, right, right, the BP wave right now. Yeah, I mean, look, I was stunned when I heard about Chajric Boseman's death over the weekend.

And I didn't, I don't know, I'm not normally one to really, I don't know, I'm not normally one to be super into celebrities like that. but this hit hard and I think maybe for many, many, many reasons he was young. Nobody knew he was sick with colon cancer. And I just didn't know what to say for a few days. Until like I was reading over the coverage and I saw that Bozeman was very insistent from the beginning that Tachala, his character, speaks in South African language in Chosa. and that he fought Marvel. Marvel was pretty keen on having the actors speak in a British accent. And they felt that speaking in African accents was, quote, too much.

And to read that, you know, Coogler said in a statement a few days ago that it was Bozeman's speaking his lines in Sosa. and I'm sorry if I mispronouncing it, but just speaking in commitment to the literally African voice, like the African accented voice and language, and that that's what convinced him to sign on to direct Black Panther. And then the rest is literally history. I mean, one of the biggest superhero movies of all time,

the highest grossing movie for a black actor, But I don't want to just say it's important because it made a lot of money. No, but I think it's just so, I mean, he was, Bozeman, we already knew he was a fighter. But the idea that he was literally fighting colonialism in a way, like fighting against the idea that, like, the British accent is the accent for Africans to sound what dignified, to sound, to sound authoritative, to sound universal, quote unquote. that that wouldn't be too much? No, that undermines the whole premise of what Wakanda is supposed to represent, which is a country that has never been touched by an outside subjugator, that has never been touched by a colonizer. And so, Bozeman said that that was a deal breaker for him. And on hindsight, I'm glad. And, you know, in my discussions with African journalists who watched the

film, they loved it. At the same time, like, you know, you hear the accent. It's like, well, okay, there's a South African accent here. There's a kind of a Ugandan accent here. I'm like, I kind of hear a Nigerian a little bit. So it's kind of like this hodgepodge. And as Larry Madoa from the BBC said, it's like, it's a bit of a mess. But you know what? I think that it shows the importance of centering Africanness.

And I say Africanness because they weren't trying to show Africa. It's very much an African American in some ways vision of Africa, of, of, this utopia, an African utopia. Lost utopia. Yeah, exactly. Or what could have been, what could be or could have been. But that's important that you center literally our words, our accents, our voices. And so for me, you know, as a first generation American here, seeing now that like Black Panther

has kind of been that a proof case that you can. can center blackness, you can center black people, you can center Africa, Africa, an approximation to Africa, and have it resonate. And that's exactly what it did. And it resonated as a very universal story in many ways, again, not to tie everything to Saudi Arabia. That was the first movie that screened in Saudi Arabia when they opened cinemas again. It grossed over $1 billion dollars worldwide. And so it resonated with something human in all of us. And so it's just, it's really important, I think, for, you know, I think if you speak to Africans, you'll also hear that there are African stories. There are African creators and filmmakers. And they deserve to

also be given the resources and the support to make their stories as well. But it just really showed on a global level that we can be ourselves. And that's enough. And that's important. Yeah, well, hopefully the legacy is both what all the young people who saw that movie do in their lives. And like you say, that there's more of a spotlight on African films, too, not just depictions of Africa. I wanted to end on one light or happy note here on August 21st, Mi Jiang, the National Zoo's, only female giant panda in Washington, gave birth to what is considered a miracle cub. Me Zhang is older than the typical panda mother, according to the Washington Post.

your parent employer, Karen, she had less than a 1% chance of having another cub. And this is particularly exciting for panda lovers in D.C. Because the last one, Bebe, was sent back to China, another sign of Chinese rising influence in November of 2019 because China owns and leases all the giant pandas in U.S.Us. But we're happy about this. We wanted to celebrate it in a week without a lot of good news. It's been a week and a half, so we think that the panda is going to make it here. And when you get up to D.C., are you going to see this panda?

Do you care? How do you feel about the baby panda? I remember when I first joined the post, my colleagues and I, we had like a huge panda discussion. And like there are apparently some people on this earth who are anti-panda. I don't. I do not. It's like anti-baxers, right? Well, I mean, I think they are cute and cuddly.

I know they're not the smartest. or the brightest or the hardest working creatures on this planet. But I am all for anybody who checks my Twitter feed. Like right now I'm obsessed with like watching hummingbirds. Yeah, I am all for any sort of. Yeah, I'm all for any sort of joy during this pandemic. And yeah, I just, I want to see, I do want to see the pandas. I, you know, yeah, I do.

Let's do it. I'm a panda supporter. Well, how about, you know, when we both can get to D.C., we'll go check out the panda. Yeah, I'm a panda centrist. I acknowledge the flaws. But I also feel like, you know, we can't just, I'm not a panda extremist. Like, I, you know, neither way. Like, they're, they're okay. They've got their flaws. But I can, I can appreciate, appreciate how cute they are.

I can appreciate an animal just wants to hang out, sleep and eat bambooies all day. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. That's about where I'm at in month seven of lockdown. And I think maybe this is an omen that 2021 will be better than 2020. I will take that. I think we'll all be pandas. Like, that's really honestly, actually now that I think about it, I think that it's just an omen that really honestly, that's the best we can hope for is just to be a panda.

Just roll around, eat bamboo, kind of, you know, pandas kind of walk around like they're a little drunk all the time, you know. So it's like, you know, we're all like. try to avoid the conflict between the American and Chinese governments. Yeah, you know, and we're all like sleep deprived and kind of, you know, stumbling all over ourselves through this like new reality. So maybe the panda is not such a bad mascot for all of us to have. No, let's take it. I'll take it.

Well, look, thanks so much for helping us out this week. Check out Karen Antia's new book available for Peodor. Check out her writing, including this piece on Black Panther that is popping today as you're hearing this. And please, please check out global opinions. some amazing voices there. Rana Ayyub, who you've heard on this podcast. Rekiah Diallo, you've heard on this podcast. Jason Rezion, a good friend of ours,

who you've also heard in this podcast. We seem to have similar taste, Karen, including in pandas and movies. So I hope you come back and hope we can keep in touch. We'll do. We'll do. As long as we make it through this year. Yeah, just make it through 2020, and then we'll see.

I'm happy. I'm happy to be back. Thank you so much for having me on. This is a lot of fun. Thanks. It's awesome. Thanks, Karen. is a crooked media production.

The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller. Pod Save the World is mixed and edited by Chris Basil. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to our amazing digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melconian, and Milo Kim, who film and share our episodes and videos every week.