Pod Save the World - Held hostage in Syria

Episode Date: February 9, 2018

Tommy talks with war photographer Jonathan Alpeyrie about being held hostage by rebel fighters for nearly three months in Syria. 

Welcome back to Pod Save the World. Thank you guys for tuning in, as always. I want to talk a little bit about Syria for a minute. There's a lot of talk out of Washington lately about the gains our military has made against ISIS in Syria. And while that is true that we've taken back a lot of territory from ISIS, the reality is the war in Syria is getting worse. If you're a civilian living on the ground there, you are getting bombed by the regime day in and day out. You are caught in fighting between regime forces and rebel forces. It is a horrific situation. And the way we know about how bad the situation is is brave journalists and photographers that go in and document what's happening. That is a role my guest today is very familiar with. His name is Jonathan Alperi. He has documented conflict zones across the planet. And in our interview today and in his book, he talks about what it was like to get kidnapped by rebel forces for 82 days in Syria. It is a harrowing story. He talks about what it was like being held by these people, how he got out, and what he has done upon returning home to try to help others who are taking captive like he was. I think you'll enjoy the interview, and thanks again for

Tundit. My guest today is Jonathan Alprey. He's a photojournalist and author who has shot photos in at least nine conflict zones. His book, The Shattered Lens, A War of Photographer's True Story of Captivity and Survival in Syria recounts the 81 days he spent in Syrian Rebel Captivity in 2013. Jonathan, thank you so much for being on the show and joining me today. Thank you. Okay, so you were on your third assignment in Syria in 2013, when suddenly you found yourself handcuffed, blindfolded, beaten, and held captive for nearly three months by a group of Syrian rebels.

You had reported from a whole bunch of dangerous places before. How did this trip take such a disturbing turn with you being kidnapped by these individuals? Well, first to answer this question, it's important to understand that different conflicts have different kinds of danger levels. And Syria was at a very high level in terms of the possibilities of getting killed or kidnapped. And the reason is because this was a very hotly contested, still is a very hotly contested conflict where you have multiple players involved foreign and domestic players. And when you have these kinds of conflicts, they are desperate in some fashion.

all rules are out, and therefore kidnappings are a good way to fund your rebel group or to fund whatever agenda you might have. Yeah. So speaking to the risk, so I mean, you were very honest in the book. You went in this pretty clear-eyed about the risks. You write about going to a lecture by a very experienced war reporter named Sebastian Younger and asking him, hey, what do you think about going to Syria? And he said, point blank, it's just too dangerous there now. Why did you think it was important to go anyway and document what was happening when you know in particular when you also discuss how like cell phone cameras and the availability of video has changed the way conflict zones are documented and photographed it's interesting question covering the war in Syria was and i can testify

that for most of us who went in to cover it was also a personal challenge because when you're a war reporter you're also kind of like an athlete you want to expand the envelope as much as you can and see where your threshold is in terms of fear that you might have or how much, how close you want to get to death and basically look at it in the eyes and then decide whether or not this is for you as a profession or you should be covering this war. You shouldn't. And Syria was a good catalyst for that because I was able to gradually cover from wars that worse and worse and worse. And even when you're inside a conflict zone, then you can decide whether or not you want to go closer to the fighting or you don't or you want to go to an area that's safer or more

dangerous. And Syria was a very good teaching experience for that. And this war was actually my 12th war. Wow. I've covered 13 in total. And Syria was definitely one of the most dangerous assignments I've ever had to cover. And that's something you talk about in the book, which is that, you know, sort of the best photos that come from a conflict zone are closer and closer and closer to the front, you know, sort of soldiers actually in action. How do you determine mentally when you should be pushing to get closer versus when you feel like it may not be safe? Well, I mean, no photos is worth your life. And therefore, you have to take calculating risks in terms of, is this picture worth taking from going to cross that street and maybe get

killed by a sniper on the way? Is it worth it? Now, every war reporter, or especially for a journalist, especially photographers have different levels in terms of their abilities to operate and take these risks. But if you want to take good pictures, it's true, you do have to get closer. And many would agree with that. While report your rights can be further behind the line and just get information and gather it. The photographer and the cameraman, they have to be on site to get the images. And if there is combat, combat is kind of like the tip of the spear, because you have, War has made different things from covering refugee camps to destructions, things, or maybe

things that happened a bit in the past. But when you're in combat, that's the ultimate version of war because you're in it when it's actually forming and happening. And then, of course, it's the most dangerous. And this is really then you can get the feel of it. But it doesn't mean that's where you'll get the best pictures. Right. Well, it's interesting reading the book.

I mean, it seems like I came away thinking you were more a student of history and war than a student of photography even. Is that a fair characterization? No, it is. And I've always been very straightforward about that. Publicly, most photographers will tell you I want the story to be told. I have a lot more, a very different approach. And partially because I was raised differently in the sense that history has always been

a very strong sense and have been shaped intellectually. And photography is the medium that allowed me to experience historical. and what better ways to experience history than conflict, because wars actually shaped nations, and as a European, that's very true. And that's important. Photography allowed me to experience, it turns out I could take a good picture,

and I've had a very good career doing that. Do I consider myself purely as a photographer? I do not. That's part of it. It's part of the mosaic, but there's also a version of me, which is I want to experience this historical moments in bringing to me first

and live in and become that perfect. and become that person and then expand from that experience to others and say, this is why history is tragic and we have to remember that. Right, right. So something you could sort of walk us through the sequence of events that sort of led to your capture. You entered through Lebanon, I believe. Yes. So to go to Syria, you had different ways.

Turkey was the most common because it was safer and just easier to be smuggled through the lines and the borders. and go into the rebel zones. Lebanon is trickier because Lebanon is controlled mostly by Hezbollah. And dealing with them, it's not that much better than dealing with Islamists on the other side. So they're also pretty tough and very well organized and very well trained. But I decided to go through Lebanon because I want to do something a bit different and cover an area that wasn't covered as much.

And I had good contacts in Lebanon. So I put two or two together. and my decision was made. So, you know, you wrote the people who ultimately captured you and were holding you were under the umbrella of the Free Syrian Army. How did you figure that out? How did they actually take you? Well, I knew where I was going at first, before I was kidnapped.

I mean, when I was in Lebanon, so I knew the FSA, Free Syrian Army was more or less in control of that area in the Kalamoun Mountains. And knowing that, you kind of know, who you might be dealing with, even though you know the rebel groups are very separated and they have different understanding of how they should be fighting this war.

But I was smuggled from Lebanon in a town called Arsale, which at the time, and that's a small town in northern Lebanon, was controlled by pro-FSA groups. It's just played that way. Pro-rebel groups? Yeah, who were anti-Bashah al-Assad mostly.

And they were turned by Hezbollah, mostly. So you go through and then I got into this town called Yabruth, which is at the time the big hub they controlled. The rebels, that is. And I was there and I was covering the fighting from there. And that was my base of operation. Right. You were very clear about how it's terrifying this was. Immediately there were mock executions.

They were firing a pistol right next to your head. I mean, in that moment, did you think this is it? I'm not coming back from this trip? No, always. It's very strange. I would say you do not think that terrible things are going to happen to you, and maybe that's a sense of survival, I'm not sure. So if you're being executed or mock executions, like you say,

which is the right term, you don't think it's going to happen. And partially because I was covering the war from their side, and you're trying to be rational. So you're trying to rationalize everything, and you say, well, wait a minute, I'm covering your side, I'm risking my life, I'm telling you a story, but you're still going after me, That doesn't make sense. Right.

Obviously, rules in war don't apply. Logic has a different meaning. Right. But you also try to reassure yourself. So there's a lot of psychological work you're doing on yourself at the time. Yeah, I can only imagine. So an interesting sort of footnote or side note is you were able to get into Syria because of the help of fixer. And I bet that's a term people listening haven't necessarily heard before.

But they are critical for a war correspondent, really for any foreign correspondent. If you're in China reporting for the New York Times, you, you, probably have a fixer who can connect you with the right people and translate and do all the things you need. In your book, you have a description of a fixer that I love. You said, you call them, quote, sort of a cross between a foster brother and Virgil leading Dante through the various circles of Inferno. What did you mean by that? Who are these people? Like, what did they do for you? Well, that's because they do everything for you. So they, you know, they fix things for you from translating to you need a bathroom,

whatever you might need. So you're kind of like, it's kind of like a parent, but who has your life in their hands. And they also more importantly have contacts who allow you to go be with a specific rebel group. So they'll facilitate these connections. That's the most important thing. Also, they know the law of the land very well.

They know where to go. So they supply their overall thing. and they're very crucial to our work. You're very right. They're crucial. How do you find a good fixer from a bad fixer? I assume there's no fixer Yelp reviews or like, you know, there should be. There's a good idea, actually.

Maybe we should start doing that. I think we just invented a business. I'm telling me, buddy. Five stars go. Two stars is no working. No good. So how did you find this guy? Like, did it ever seem just crazy to you that you're putting your life in the hands of someone you maybe just met?

No, it's a very good question. You don't just meet people. You prepare weeks ahead. I mean, you do prepare your trip. Or if you don't have that much time, you can ask other journalists, even though in my profession it's very competitive, like any profession, but same for us. And we would still help each other. If anybody tells me, do you have a good guy on the ground?

It doesn't matter who he is, what agency, whoever he works for, I would help him, because that's a question of safety, and that's just the right thing to do. So in this case, I had two fixes. The first one was a good one. I was through my contacts in Lebanon. And the second one, I decided to trust while I was on site to go to another area where they were fighting. And I believe that's him who facilitated my kidnapping. But, you know, you make mistakes.

I mean, I've been covering wars for 15 years and you can still make mistakes. Oh, absolutely. I'm honestly amazed that it works out the right way more often than not in some of these places, given what you were saying earlier about. the enormous revenue you can make from kidnapping for ransom. No, it's true. But Syria was a, but the Middle East in general is tricky. As a Westerner, always has been.

That's nothing new. It's worse now, however. And it's tough because there's fixers are, you know, they're there for the money, of course. But like you say, there is always a middleman that plays a role in terms of the kidnapping when it comes to renegotiations to try to get you out. everybody takes a cut. It's just pure and simple business. So basically when you're kidnapped, you'll become merchandise. You're not so much a human being anymore. And that's exactly where I tried to portray in a book where I try to be more humane and therefore have a better condition.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you describe in pretty brutal detail the physical and psychological torture your captors put you through. There were beatings. One guy broke two of your ribs, the mock executions we discussed. But it did seem like your relationship evolved over time. you were able to earn their trust, maybe make some of them like you and sort of like seek out your company. How did that happen? It's a good question. Well, my mother raised me in specific way that allowed me to be very resilient to things.

And I believe that that was very helpful, number one. Number two, it was always a struggle. I had two different personalities in me at the time. One was like, I just want to go out and kill them. and I had opportunities to do so. Just take a machine gun, I can use them, no problem, and just take these guys out. That was...

For those listening, you're a pretty big guy. You nearly went to the Olympics for swimming, so you could, you know, have the upper-handed times. Right, but then I would have gone killed right after, but taking a few guys out. So that's partially a fantasy that you have, but then you really have to pull yourself back together and be like, this is not what you should be doing.

And of course, one of the many things that I did is to make sure that they would like me. So I spent a lot of time being very nice to them. But now I'm a hypocrite. More like trying to help them with things. And they would be curious about certain things and just automatically jump in that and just give them all the details they want

in order to be curious about my life back home. And obviously the base subject is women. Right. As any places at any time on the planet and amongst men, that is. And that was always a very... big curiosity for them, especially for the young ones, who are all virgins, obviously. So if you're able to exploit these cracks, and then you go right in these cracks, and you can expand, then

then you hope that they might forget about your conditions of being kidnapped for an hour or two, and that's helpful. Right. Yeah, I mean, what you endured is in no way funny, but some of the scenes you described are kind of just bizarre. It was almost like proximity and boredom just drove everybody crazy. You taught one captor how to dance to J-Lo and Pitbull. You had to explain to another what foreplay was by demonstrating with a pillow after he demanded you do so. You taught another guy had to swim. Could you relax in those moments or were you always just a captive, terrified? It's interesting. These moments you describe, you do feel free for a minute and you automatically it's a survival thing. I'm not sure where your brain rewires itself.

almost and then you almost have a like a good time and when it came to the swimming when I was in the pool the first time and they filled it up yeah I really felt like I was almost in the summer camp because the weather was incredible bombs were dropping constantly but it was a very nice weather and you're in the pool and you're swimming it's a very odd moment it's almost surreal you had to teach what sounded like the biggest fattest hairiest guy how to swim when when he first got in the pool he just sort of sank like a rock, right? Yeah, he was a warlord, and apparently he felt like he needed to improve some skills with swimming, and he didn't know how to swim.

So, yeah, he started singing with him, so I grabbed him, and then, and I've been playing Wallopolo for years, so I just tried Waller really well. So I just, like, kind of holding him. Yeah, he's not a very attractive guy to look at him with swim trunks. Anyway, but everybody was making fun of him because, you know, he's a warlord, and he's in a very compromising position, ultimately. And, yeah, and by the end, he could swim. never fully understood why he wanted to do that. But when they heard I was, I swam because I would

talk about it. I think they saw this as something very strange somehow because no one really learns how to swim that part of the world. It doesn't happen. So I think they were curious. And when they saw me swim, because there was a first time when I got in that pool two days before, then that's probably how it happened. You know, in the book, you managed to remain remarkably calm. It's like you almost seemed like you had some techniques to do so, like not thinking. about home, not daydreaming about an ex-girlfriend or family necessarily, like staying in the moment. Was that something you had figured out earlier in life, or did you just kind of decide in that moment this is how I'm going to make it through this? Nothing can ever prepare you

for being kidnapped. It's like experienced war, let's say if I fight the first time, you care about it. You know, it sounds romantic and sexy, and then it happens, and then you really know if this is for you or not. When it happened to me in 2004, my first big firefight, then I knew this was, I was meant for that. It was built in me. Where were you in this? It was in the Republic of Georgia, and I was probably August or September 2004. And I was very drunk, and because they were gone on a salt drinking vodka heavily,

and they're like, here have some, too, it'll be good for you. And it does remove a lot of your inhibitions, as it would. I guess you're out of bar to talk to women's bad. spirit of your dog. So you go and there's boats, you know, going around and you're drunk, which is very stupid because you're being careless. Anyway, I did that. And, yeah.

I mean, the other thing that would have driven me insane, I mean, you said a minute ago, you don't know why this guy wanted to learn to swim, but he did. It didn't make any sense. It seemed like nothing they did made sense. They moved you from one place to another. They brought in people who told you you'd be let go and they were full of shit. You know, that would happen time and time again. Like, that irrationality of it all would,

make me crazy. It's because you have to reapply yourself in the context of being in a war zone. So if you're home, then these lies that you're mentioning, yeah, it doesn't compute well. But however, if you're in the combat zone, then everything changes. And even if you're a nice guy and you're covering their side, therefore you're kind of taking their side in essence. And they're still going after you. And therefore, they're doing bad publicity because I'm, I'm.

a well-known international shooters. So this would come out eventually, and it did when I was released. It really makes the Syrian rebellion look very bad. And now people start. And then James Foley was killed. But to them, it doesn't matter. The war effort is what matters the most. Finally, you know, you removed several times.

There were false promises, like I mentioned. Finally, a rich Syrian connected to the government essentially bought your freedom. You know, do you have a sense of why he did that, what this guy maybe got out of getting you out of captivity? It was all very political. Originally, he was looking for two other French journalists who had been kidnapped, and he was kind of spitting in a wrong hole.

So my luck was incredible because he ended up getting contact with the rebel group who had me, and he said, well, I'm looking for these two guys, do you have them? It's like, no, we don't, but we have this guy. It's like, it's like, car shopping. Yeah, it was bizarre. Yeah, exactly, who do you want?

And he's like, well, who is he's like, well, it's him? like, okay, so he sent someone to film me, so you would see my, you know, see what I look like to make sure it wasn't the same. And then they started negotiating money. But the reason why you did this is because a lot of powerful Syrian business people and business politicians, and often it's the same. They do both are in some sort of a black list, which was created by the European Union and the United States. Exactions. Yeah, they freeze your assets. You can't travel abroad. So it really, it's stringent because a lot of these people have foreign businesses and they can't.

And he did in Canada. So he's trying to get out of that list by showing goodwill by paying a lot of money to release a foreign entity and then hopefully getting out of that list. Interesting. That's funny that he would cook up that route to get off a sanction list. But hey, whatever works. Yeah, it's one way to do it. It kind of worked in the beginning for him than it didn't because governments don't

like to be blackmailed. Usually they don't really do well with that. Did you think that ransom was always the captors goal? and they were just sort of waiting around for the best offer. When I would ask why I'm here, they would always tell me the same thing. They say, you can't get out because you're surrounded. We are surrounded by Hezbollah troops,

which was true, actually. The front was getting close. I mean, you could feel the war is getting worse and worse where we were. But so they would actually lie always and always tell me that I wasn't kidnapped. They would never tell me you're kidnapped. They always say you're here on your free will, but you know it's not true.

but it does make you feel better when you hear that and they're very smart they know that so they're like oh so it's okay but you're not being rational yourself i knew that i was being kidnapped because it's not obvious but you don't think right so when they tell you you're not kidnapped you're like okay that's okay i'm okay i'm going to be fine i'm going to live yeah so finally this individual bought your freedom they took you to another house for i believe 10 days that was larger a little more comfortable no no what happened is i was smuggled back to Damascus and then they smuggled me. It was kind of crazy, but they got me to Damascus and then he got nervous because what he did was, you know, you're dealing with the rebels, so you never

know with the Bashar government. So he smuggled me back into Lebanon 24 hours later. And then he left after the border and I went to Beirut with two of his men and he had this incredible apartment overlooking the marina of Beirut. And I knew Beirut well, so I knew where I was and I escaped there and ended up at the French embassy. So you managed to find a hard line and you made a call, it had someone to call you back, and all of a sudden, you know, they're telling you run 100 yards down the street to a hotel, I believe?

Yeah, there was a four-season very nearby. And I knew the area because I've been there, so I just walked around and I'm just waiting like this in front of the hotel and this car shows up and it's the French police and they pick me up and they drive me to the embassy. You described the anxiety of waiting for release as a fishbone in your throat. When did you find, spit the fishbone out and sort of feel okay?

Not until the next day because I remember I had a major panic attack, which I've never had before and I probably will never have that again when I woke up the next morning at the embassy. Man, it's a beautiful room. My brain didn't realize that I was free. So I spent about half an hour in other panic trying to remember where I was. Now, you see where you are, but it's weird. Your brain was like, could not connect how it felt where you were. so I had no idea where I was.

I completely lost, and then it kicks back in, and then I was fine. I can't even imagine. So finally you're out after enduring the hell of 81 days of captivity, but all that time your parents are dealing with a totally different kind of hell, right? This fear and uncertainty about your situation worrying about you. Unfortunately, sometimes the way governments interact with families make things worse. They increase that anxiety. They have terrible bedside manner, for lack of a better term,

in terms of communicating with people. The United States refused to pay ransoms. Other governments like France will publicly deny that they pay, but it's clear that they do. It's also difficult for families like yours to know who to talk to in the government. You talk in the book about how it's bizarre that the FBI is handling these cases because they are in charge of missing persons. But why isn't the State Department, right? It was this convoluted system. In fact, some American families were told they could be arrested if they talked about paying for ransom.

Yeah, like Jim Foley's family. Totally fucked up system. The Obama administration ended up conducting a big review of hostage policy. and reforming it in 2015, and we can get into that more. But the first thing I want to ask is, how did your family and friends deal with those days? Like, what sort of things practically

were they working on to try to get you home? Well, I got bits and piece of information after, obviously, I came home. And even recently, I found out some stuff. I didn't know. My parents, my mother lives in Mexico, my father lives in Maine, but they had this policy,

if I can say to keep it secret. Obviously, the governments would agree with that. So that's the way they wanted. Some other families want to make it public. Maybe if such a long time has passed, it's time to do that. But they had a mix feeling. Dealing with the French government would quite well. I think it went well.

It's just the way it's set up with interaction. Everything was different. And dealing with the U.S. government didn't go well. Now, to be fair to the federal government, it's a huge organization and it's a huge country and dealing with one individual, it's perhaps more difficult in terms of technicalities, how things are constructed. In Europe, France is a much smaller nations, less people, so you can have a close relationship with the government in that sense. Now, you're right, the Obama administration, they try to mend the relationship between the DOJ, for

example, and the families, because families were very upset. And now a question about money, there's always money involved. Often what could happen is the United States can use a third party or third party in terms of a country or an individual's to pay, but usually there's money involved. I think you were probably a little too fair a minute ago to the U.S. government. Some of the reforms they made is basically, you know, we're not going to abandon you, we're going to stand by them. They created a hostage group to coordinate all the disparate parts of governments. They were talking to the right people. And, you know, they had to stop needlessly threatening families and telling them, hey, if you negotiate with the terrorist group, you could go to prison.

That is crazy. I think they wouldn't send you to jail. They might sue you. You never have. Yeah. It's a threat. The reason why I'm being nice to their fellow government, and trust me, it doesn't happen all the time because it's a heavy structure that's cumbersome. But the FBI was very good to me when I came back and they helped me get money.

There was funds. To replace some of the equipment. Yeah. And I got quite a bit of money. and more than I needed, actually, to replace things. And I kept good relations with the FBI. And so that kept, that was well. So during, not so good, but after, I met some good agents, and they were very helpful.

Yeah, I mean, you talked about these endless debriefings that happened after you got back. There were the French authorities. There were the FBI. Am I debriefing you as we speak? Or is this like, was this cathartic writing the book? And now it's a little easier to dig into it. Like I was saying earlier in the interview, I always been very really. So it could back five for some things.

We're not getting to that. But it was cathartic. And one of the things that was very cathartic for me is going back to war. And when I was kind of getting restless and I was in the US, I was shooting, but I was bored. And I needed something extra to go back to my original positioning. So when the war in the Ukraine started, then I was like, that's it. I packed my bag. I went to Paris.

They're my best friend's house called the buddy of mine who's a famous reporter in Paris, This is older gentlemen in his 50s now. And we just went to Kiev and we covered the war for two years. Yeah, I mean, you talk about your parents, your poor parents, man. You get back and they're like, all right, we're looking forward to plan B. Like, you want to teach what's your next thing? Since then, I counted that you've been to Cairo during the Revolution, Ukraine and the Maidan during the Revolution, Mosul, a very safe place in 2017.

So what drew you back? Like, can you just not shake the need to be in these places? It's a question that's being asked to me. And every time I say the same thing, It's a legitimate question, obviously, and it's kind of, it's like a sickness. That's usually the word that I use. And again, I'm always very realistic when it comes to that. And we all have that bug.

I mean, the guys who do this, so soldiers have it too. You would have soldiers coming back from the front on leave. And you see, their family and now I have that connection with that family. And the only thing they want to do is go back, you know. It's just kind of the same. It's not entirely because we're not working as in a unit. but it's similar because once you have the war drug in your bloodstream, it's very hard to shake. And even though you know that it's not healthy.

Yeah. As a photographer, I mean, there are these iconic photos that can, I think, summarize or a war and better than any reporting can, right? There's horrifying images of a naked little girl who had just been napalmed in Vietnam, I think, like catalyzed opposition to Vietnam. There's the photo of Ilan Kurdi lying dead on the, beach, a little Syrian boy. I mean, do you think about those images and the political impact as part of your job

when you're in these places? It's not a primary thing. I know my work's going to get well published, so that's a direct consequence of that. Now, when it comes to specific photos that were instrumental in shaping my craft, obviously, and it's true for everybody, there are a couple of photographers. World War II shooters who were operating on the Russian front, both the German and the Russian side. And I found those very appealing because they're rare,

and they're not very well-known. So I'm always looking for something that's a bit off the beaten path, I can say. And they're incredible work. And the atrocity of that conflict just makes it even more. So I try to look for something that's a little different. Got it. You're clear, honest in the book, that you get booked on TV to talk about Syria policy.

You know, like, I'm, you know, I had this situation. I'm not like a policy expert. I'm certainly not either. But you also said, you know, that you felt like Assad's regime as awful as it is was the only thing keeping the country from devolving into total chaos. Do you still feel that way sort of a couple years later? And do you have a sense of like what might be a best case scenario for Syria at this point? No, but I'm doing my second trip to Syria.

And this was when the war started in the beginning of spring 2012. and we were embedded with rebels in northern Syria, a very difficult trip. And already you had a feeling these guys were being, you know, more and more Islamic. And war does that also. And then more foreigners came in. And I taught to CNN.

I was on assignment with them. Be careful because I think this is going to be. And it turned out to be true. Of course, the regime of Assad is, it's not a good regime. It's torturing. Is there a specialty? We all know that.

However, it is difficult for the United States to sometimes. have the higher moral ground because we have supported some of these people and where it doesn't suit our national interests, we switch sides and we do that all the time. That's nothing new. I agree with you. But

when you add on top of that, you have a higher moral ground, it doesn't make it as credible. I think trying to get rid of it was a terrible thing. Six to 800,000 people have died. It means our displaced the country is in complete ruin. Was it worth it? No.

And look at Libya. Libya is the other great example, Gaddafi, yeah, he was crazy, but you could talk to him still and he held it together. Libya is a complete chaos. And now all the mass migration to Europe's coming through here. They had a deal with Gaddafi to stub that, and that was the deal. And now getting rid of him just unlocked it. So they're very stupid policies. Jonathan Opry, thank you so much for joining me today. And the book is The Shattered Lens, A War Photographer's True Story of Captivity and Survival in Syria. We barely really got into the harrowing story of those 81 days.

So everyone should buy it and read it. And thanks for joining me. Thank you. Thanks again for listening to POTSave the World. If you like to show, please rate and review us in the iTunes store. It means a lot to me and it helps the show. Talk to you next week.