Pod Save the World - Kamala Harris on the world stage

Episode Date: August 12, 2020

Now that Senator Kamala Harris is Joe Biden’s running mate, Ben and Tommy examine her foreign policy record. They also discuss growing concerns about foreign election interference, the disputed election and crackdown in Belarus, how the press is under attack in Hong Kong, Trump’s escalating fight with Chinese tech companies, allegations that Saudi Arabia tried to murder (another) critic abroad, an oil spill in Mauritius, protests in Zimbabwe, eruptions in Indonesia, Putin’s claim he has a Covid vaccine, more ambassadors gone wild and General (???) Bill Belichick. Then Tommy talks with Washington Post Beirut Bureau Chief Liz Sly about the massive explosion that rocked the city and the political and economic crisis in Lebanon before the blast.

Welcome back to POTSafe the World. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. Ben, we got a hell of a good show today. There is a ton of news. Our guest is Liz Sly. You'll hear her at the end of the show. She's the Washington Post, Beirut Bureau Chief. And I talked to her today about the massive explosion that rocked the city last week, efforts to rebuild in the political and economic crisis that Lebanon was dealing with before the 2,700 pounds of ammonia nitrate ever went off. So great conversation. And Ben, I'm just reminded. mind talking to her that like foreign correspondents in a lot of places put their lives on the line to do their jobs. And we should be grateful to them and not call them fake news maybe. Yes. They are national and international treasures. And they're not enough of them because of media consolidation. So we're really lucky to have people like Liz Sly out there. Yeah, we really are. So stay tuned for that. We're going to cover a ton of news just the two of us. First is the big news. Everybody's talking about Senator Kamala Harris has been chosen as Joe Biden's running mate. So we're going to talk about what we know about her and her foreign policy views.

Then we're going to talk about growing concern about foreign election interference. The disputed election in crackdown in Belarus that we previewed last week. We're talking about how the press is under attack in Hong Kong. Trump's growing war against Chinese tech companies, allegations that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman tried to have another enemy executed abroad this time in Canada. Talk about an oil spill in Mauritius protest in Zimbabwe, eruptions in Indonesia. Putin says he made a vaccine, Ben, I'm going to pump the brakes on that one before I take it. Yeah, yeah.

We'll see. Seriously. A little more of our ongoing running series, ambassadors, gone wild, and then finally Bill Belichick. But first, Ben, before we get to the big VP news, we have an even bigger news, which is that Missing America, Episode 1 is out. It is live. It is in the world. It is fantastic.

I listened this morning. Congratulations. How you feeling? I feel, you know, it's very weird to work on something really for a couple years and then very intensively for a bunch of months. And then suddenly, like, people have access to it. Yeah. And so, but I'm really excited. The audience that I most want to listen to this podcast are the world those because you guys have kind of been on this journey with us anyway.

And I think, you know, we go deep. Episode one, you'll hear from Susan Rice, Samantha Power, Chris Murphy. You also hear from incredible international voices like David Lammy, Kevin Rudd. You know from young activists like Zarlaas Halim's always been on this show. show. And you'll hear the COVID-Abolo response compared. You'll hear about why Black Lives Matter is relevant to our role in the world. You'll hear what other people around the world are thinking and watching our election. It kind of sets up the whole show. So I really hope people check it out. It's so good. I love the first episode. I listen to all the episodes. I love all the episodes.

Subscribe to Missing America. Wherever you get your pods, you will love it. It's such a good companion piece to this show. Look, it was the before times when Ben could really take you to all these other countries, sit down with people, learn from activists, learn about ourselves in the process. It is incredible. So subscribe to missing America. Okay, let's get to the news. Joe Biden, picked a running mate. This is an exciting day. K-Hive assembled, Tommy. Yeah, I mean, look, we obviously loved Susan, but, like, Kamal Harris, you know, I mean, there's a reason why there's been, like, an excitement around her for a long time, like dating back to, you know, her time as Attorney General in California. And, you know, it's going to be really fun to watch her, you know,

take her place in the national stage. Yeah, and hopefully kick the shit out of Mike Pence at a debate. So let's talk about a little bit of what we know from about her foreign policy record, because that's what we do here. We're world those. We're geeks. We love this stuff. I stole a lot of this from the Council on Foreign Relations. So it kind of ticked through a bunch of just things she's done, her record. So on China, Ben, she sort of made standard comments on trade. She opposed Trump trade war. She wants to cooperate with China on climate change and is called out their human rights record. So those are all things we have. like you will like this, I think in particular, Ben. I think all the 2020 candidates had really

aggressive climate change proposals. And Kamala has talked about centering climate, you know, putting at the center of her diplomacy. So I imagine you think that that's like maybe the most important thing. Yeah, I think the two things that jump out to me about Kamala's record that are really relevant to what we've talked a lot about. One is climate and the recognition that that's not just a domestic issue, that that should be the centerpiece of American foreign policy, really the central pillar. And then also, she's been really good on democracy issues here in America, right, which, as we've talked about, is totally inseparable from the need for the United States to reclaim its moral authority in the world. So I think also, frankly, just globally having a young,

dynamic, charismatic black woman, you know, of multi-ethnic background, who is going to destroy Mike Pence in debates and represents in many ways the future of the Democratic Party. Like, that's going to be a great asset to have around the world, you know, that Joe Biden's described himself as a bridge of sorts to the next generation and to the increasingly diverse America that's coming. And the extent to which Kamala Harris represents that, I think, will be very powerful in terms of her capacity to deliver a message on the world stage. Yeah, totally agree. A couple of the things that jumped out of me, she voted against reauthorizing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA.

When it comes to other counterterrorism areas, she has not ruled out using drones, but has called for more transparency. She hammered Trump for leaving the Iran deal and says she rejoin it, which makes both of us very happy. She will end support for the Saudi Civil War in Yemen. Very good again.

On North Korea, she said she would consider sanctions relief if North Korea takes verifiable steps to denuclearize, but she also wrote a letter to Trump saying he lacks the legal authority to carry out a preemptive strike North Korea. Both ways, that's good. She's opposed military intervention in Venezuela, but called for granting temporary protected status for Venezuelan migrants in the U.S. who want to stick around and stay here and be protected and not get deported to someplace where they might be hurt, imprisoned, what have you. So a lot of good things in terms of her

foreign policy record. Obviously, you know, Joe Biden's record will be leading the U.S. foreign policy, but she is the last person in the room advising him, pushing him on issues. And and I'm sure taking on her own basket of foreign policy issues to lead. Like, that's just some exciting stuff. Yeah, no. And, you know, in many ways, she's been at the mainstream of where the parties have been evolving on these issues in a very good way, right? So the approach to the Saudi war in Yemen, the approach to the Iran deal, you know,

like she's, if you take her tenacity and her very big brain and apply it to a post-9-11, American foreign policy that is rooted in winding down these wars, prioritizing diplomacy, focusing on issues around the rule of law and corruption in the U.S. and around the world. You know, I think there's a lot to work with there in terms of what she could bring to the table as a partner for Joe Biden. And again, I think it's really, if you look at some of Kamala's more outstanding moments in her time in the Senate, you know, they have been focused on these issues around the rule of law, which again, I think are profoundly foreign policy issues. You know, like the interrogation that she did of Bill Barr is the exact kind of scrutiny

that needs to be applied to people undermining the rule of law around the world. So I see here as a potentially exciting figure in bridging what needs to happen in terms of domestic reform to our own democracy and the functioning of the rule of law and inclusivity and inequality in this country and what we're standing for in other countries. And I think she could be a very forceful advocate for those things. Yes. But first they have to win. So let's talk about something that might make that harder election interference.

So on Friday, August 7th, the Director of National Intelligence's Office released a statement about election interference attempts on the 2020 election. It mentioned, quote, ongoing and potential activity, which I found to be weird phrasing that could mean anything, Ben, from three countries, China, Russia, and Iran. The statement said China wants Trump to lose, but provides no specifics besides. like public PR propaganda statements from them. It said Russia is doing things to, quote, primarily denigrate former Vice President Joe Biden and the establishment. Nice of them to incorporate some of Trump's campaign rhetoric there by calling Joe the establishment.

It doesn't say that Russia wants Trump to win or anything about the many levels of interference and deeper hacking that we saw in 2016 that we should probably assume is going on. Lastly, the DNI statement claims that Iran wants to undermine democratic institutions, undermine Trump and divide the U.S. in the wake of the election or leading up to the election. Right around the release of that statement, the New York Times Magazine, released a long piece by Robert Draper about how Trump has just fully politicized the intelligence community. It included anecdotes about specific instances of where intelligence around election interference, including in an NIE, this like highly, highly vetted important consensus

intelligence product that the intelligence community puts together. that document was changed from saying the Russians want Trump to win to something much more watered down. We talked a little bit about this on POTS of America Monday, Ben, but I think it's so important that I really wanted to hammer at home with you. What did you make of this, this DNI statement kind of, you know, spreading the election interference love around to three different countries, some pro Joe, some pro Trump? And this like general growing concern on Capitol Hill about election interference and maybe that we are not being told enough. Yeah, I was really worried about this statement. I did not see it at all as a positive step here. And I'll just unpack why.

I mean, as the Draper article attested, and as we've talked about here, you know, Rick Grinnell and years of Trump, they basically cleaned house at the DNI, right? And now you've got this kind of hack in there. And here's what they're clearly setting up, right? they are acknowledging the Russia effort, but they're trying to create a both sides narrative around it, which is what they always try doing in politics. Well, Russia might be helping Trump, but maybe China or Iran are helping Biden. First of all, let's unpack this. These are very different things. Russia, if it's like 2016, and it's probably worse, is likely to be engaged in a systematic, multifaceted effort to elect Donald Trump president of the United States again, right? and they're increasing concerns that that could even include hacking election infrastructure.

The Chinese regularly engage in anti-U.S. propaganda and disinformation. Like, this does not sound or feel to me like the Chinese are trying to help Joe Biden win. In fact, a lot of the reporting we've seen is that they would like Donald Trump to win because China's been cleaning up around the world, given the collapse of American influence. And so equating attacks from China or Iran on kind of U.S. policy with, supporting Joe Biden is what this feels like. And an equivalency drawn to what Russia is doing, that's just not true. And what worries me about this is, one, it obscures just how dangerous what the Russians are likely doing is. And two, it's also not hard to see a scenario in which

Joe Biden wins. And in their zeal to, you know, get even and to launch their investigations, they will claim, well, the Chinese helped Joe Biden get elected. And we'll have what they said Barack Obama did, and he didn't do with their Obamagate conspiracy theory, where they claim that Obama somehow used a transition to undermine the incoming administration. Like, they may very well do that. So I see them setting up a narrative to enable the Russian interference and then to weaponize what I think is a huge exaggeration, if not total misrepresentation.

of what China is doing to attack Joe Biden. And the other piece of this, Ben, is like, it seems like that the Senate itself might be enabling Russian interference, right? So we have Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, who is desperate to become fully what Vladimir Lenin once called a useful idiot, meaning someone who will pedal Russian propaganda in the West. So Johnson is using his committee, his chairmanship, to run an investigation at the Biden's family based off these documents that he was given by the former, the son of a former

KGB officer, right? And he is just like happily regurgitating ridiculous debunked lies about Burisma and Hunter Biden and all the shit we learned about during impeachment because he thinks it will get Trump elected. When even Lindsey Graham said he doesn't think this information is credible. It's driving me crazy. So like my last question, if you've been, you know, some of these senators are coming out and saying, we were just briefed on this information, but we can't tell you because it's classified. You know, we talked about this on Monday how Mike Gravel in the early 70s read the Pentagon

on papers into the congressional record. Like, do you think some of these guys should go down to the floor and start just talking about this intelligence? Like, how do we figure out when it's appropriate to do that even? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I like Mark Warner, but he made a mistake. He's the ranking member on the Senate Intelligence Committee. And he kind of signed this bipartisan statement that went along with what the DNI had said.

And notably, Adam Schiff and Nancy Pelosi then put out a statement saying, they were troubled by this framing, the equivalency being drawn between what Russia is doing and what other countries are doing. I don't think in a kind of zeal for bipartisanship here, we should allow the Republicans to somehow, again, both sides of this. That's the first thing. And the second thing is, you know, a bunch of senators, and Dick Blumenthal's, you know, been front-centered on this, keep coming out and saying how troubled they are, how dangerous this is, how they hope that more information is shared. The Trump administration and the Trump hack at DNI,

they're not going to put this information out, right? So either you're going to have to figure out a way to get it out or it's not going to get out. And there should be ways to get it out, by the way. I mean, the Democrats control of the House Intelligence Committee, or like you said, you can read some of this in the congressional record. But if there really is stuff that's that scary, I think the public has a right to know these things before the election, right?

Yes. And frankly, I also don't think that, there's huge sources and methods concerns here. It's not like the Russians aren't aware they were monitoring election interference here. They're not going to be shocked to learn that the intelligence community has uncovered some things here. And if you connected to the Draper story, the Draper story said that literally national intelligence estimates about election interference were changed at the request of political pointies in the Trump administration. That is as manipulating of intelligence as it gets. And so if this information,

is in the government and it's relevant to Americans before they vote, we should know it. Yeah, yeah. That's the point of having intelligence to be able to warn us in cases like this. Okay, let's talk about Belarus, because last week we previewed what was then an upcoming presidential election in Belarus. And again, if folks don't know where Belarus is, imagine a map, Belarus borders Russia on the east. It's just north of Ukraine. So there was some hope last week that voters in Belarus could finally depose their leader who was often referred to as Europe's longest-serving dictator. But when that election happened on August 9th, sadly those hopes were dashed. So here's the backstory.

Alexander Lukashenko has led Belarus for 26 years. He stayed in power by rigging elections and taking huge loans from Russia that kept the economy afloat, but indebted them to the Russians. This year, Lukashenko faced a surprisingly strong challenge from Svetlana Tikonoskaya, in part because Lukashenko's disastrous handling of the coronavirus. So Svetlana Tika Nostkaia is a 37-year-old with no political experience, and she decided to run after her husband, who's an activist blogger, YouTuber, was arrested just days after he announced his candidacy. It's not totally clear to me why Lukashenko's goons allowed Svetlana to qualify to run, right? They could have bounced her too. But it turned out to be a mistake because she was turning out some of the biggest crowds observers had seen in decades, despite like it being an incredibly sexist country, despite massive.

voter suppression efforts, and many observers believe that she won the election. But on Monday, Belarus's election authorities announced that Lukashenko had won 80% of the vote, and Svetlana got 10%. And so those figures are almost certainly preposterous, and they enraged citizens who took to the streets to protests. A lot of those protesters were met with a brutal crackdown by police. Ben, it was upsetting to me that it was so bad at times that it looked like Portland or Seattle. or other U.S. cities where the cops were beating the shit out of people. State-run news reported that like 3,000 people were arrested. So Svetlana apparently issued a formal complaint to the election authorities.

Then she disappeared for a while. I guess her team didn't know where she was until she reemerged in Lithuania. So Western leaders, including the U.S., have put out statements expressing concern about irregularities and the violence. Autocrats like Xi Jinping sent his congrats. The Russians blamed the West for the protests. which they always do. So, Ben, I don't want to be defeatist.

It does feel like the opposition has a uphill climb here. What do you think comes next? Does the EU weigh in? Is there a chance of an international body could pressure the right people to even things out? Or is this just the official death of any kind of election or democracy, in quotes, in Belarus? Yeah, I mean, you know, and to be clear, there already wasn't really much of democracy in Belarus. Lukashenko's been dictatorial. And look, this is such utter bullshit.

I mean, to come out and say you want 80%. 80%. It's just like when at the same time, we're seeing the biggest crowds that have ever been seen on the streets in Minsk for days against Lukashenko, you know, is just kind of an FU to the people of the country from their president, right? I would like to see, I mean, in a normal world, the U.S. and the EU together could apply a lot of pressure here. I don't think the U.S. is going to do it. I'd like to see the EU be more outspoken. They kind of have a Susan Collins vibe to their statements. They're deeply troubled.

Yeah, their walks is had. But look, the bottom line here is like, this guy is on borrowed time. Like, the people of this country are clearly sick of his kind of corrupt autocratic rule here. And he may be, like, just getting through this one. But these protests are going to come back. And, you know, the tactics they're using in the streets, you know, are horrific, but are not going to do anything to improve his standing with his people, right? And so I do think that finding ways to provide support to civil society and to the independent voices that are being raised in Belarus from the U.S., from Europe, to lift them up, to spotlight

them while also calling out the behavior of the regime in that country is going to be important, not just right now, but this is going to keep going. And so if Joe Biden's elected, like he'll have an opportunity, I think, to speak out forcefully on this and to try to organize the world's democracies, to give more support to independent political movements in civil society in places like Belarus and to be unabashed about doing it, you know? I mean, sometimes in the Obama administration, particularly in the heels of the Iraq war, we were a bit reticent, you know, to intervene, essentially, in the politics of other countries. You know what? Like Vladimir Putin has intervened in our politics. You know,

the far right is intervening in politics around the world. And I think what we need is a much more assertive tone and posture on these types of movements, because, you know, the far right? And I think, because these people are right. And so there are other things that we can do, like exposing this guy's corruption. I'm sure that the U.S. can track the illicit financial flows that support goons like Lukashenko.

Let's publicize that. Let's let the world see how rich this guy is and how did he get that rich being basically the dictator of his country for the last 25 years. So I think there's a bunch of stuff that can be done. It's not going to remedy the immediate challenge, but it's going to make sure that the next time this happens, there's a greater chance of success

for the opposition. Let's talk about another great power trying to crush a protest movement, this time in Hong Kong. So the Chinese government continues to use Hong Kong's new national security law to just squeeze Hong Kong's democracy. The latest example is the arrest Monday of Jimmy Lai, who is one of Hong Kong's most prominent democracy activists. He's been called a media mogul. He founded the Apple Daily newspaper, which is a staunchly pro-democracy newspaper. The charges against Lai, it's collusion with foreign forces. whatever the hell that means. So they sent 200 cops to the office, the Apple Daily office. They were searching it. They also arrested additional members of the Apple Daily's staff.

They arrested Lies to Sons who do not work at the paper. They arrested executives at another one of Lies, media companies. Jibby Lye is well known by senior officials in Washington. He's met with Pelosi, met with Pompeo. On Sunday, Mike Pompeo released a statement with the foreign ministers of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the UK, criticizing, Hong Kong's government for disqualifying pro-democracy candidates from the upcoming legislative elections and like generally criticizing their use of the new national security law. Late last week, the Trump administration imposed sanctions on Carrie Lamb, Hong Kong's chief executive, and 10 other officials in Hong Kong and China for suppressing pro-democracy

activists. In return, China sanctioned a bunch of Americans, including Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. So those are kind of things you would want the U.S. doing, Ben, but per usual, Trump made clear that he doesn't actually care about democracy or freedom in Hong Kong. When he was asked about these arrests today, he rambled about how Hong Kong has been making a lot of money and now the U.S. stock market is going to make more money. It was like truly bizarre, morally bankrupt stuff that just shows he doesn't give a shit about democracy in Hong Kong.

And look, frankly, we've known that for a while because he never talks about this stuff. He leaves it to Pompeo to beat his chest futile. But like, let's pause there, Ben. I was trying to think of like an equivalent person in the U.S. maybe getting arrested. I don't know if it's Jeff Bezos, Ted Turner, someone like that. But this seems like a clear attempt to silence and intimidate the press in Hong Kong. How big a deal do you think this is in terms of their slide into just becoming mainland China? And what do you think the U.S. should do in response?

So this is an enormous deal. And I'll break it down based on my experience. When I was in Hong Kong, I talked to people a lot about the media. And what they told me is that the pro-government, forces, either directly the government of the Chinese Communist Party, or often kind of Chinese tycoons associated with the government, have bought up all of the media except Apple Daily, except Jimmy Lai's properties. And I said, well, what does that mean? And they said, well, for instance, if you live in a big housing project, there is literally a government newspaper delivered to your

door every day. Like, you don't have a choice. Like, you just get it, right? And there's this kind of force feeding of a propaganda line that is friendly to Beijing that dominates the Hong Kong media space. Then there was another independent paper, the South China Morning Post, which is an iconic paper in that part of the world. It's an English language daily. This is the daily that's delivered to like every hotel room and, you know, is generally services the expat community there. All I can hear is when he said, this is the daily. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. I don't have the same voice, unfortunately. But that was bought by Oliver. Bhaba, right, which is basically the Chinese Amazon.

They have no reason to buy it. It's not part of their business model to buy it. And when they bought it, they said the reason they were buying it is because they thought they wanted to correct misperceptions about China, right? So it tells you a lot about the editorial line that they were shifting towards. And so the only source of independent news was Apple Daily. So to your question of who is it like, it's actually like arresting everybody. the Washington Post, the New York Times, CNN, because this is it.

If they get rid of Apple Daily and Jimmy Lai's media conglomerate, there is no independent media anymore that they can actually reach people. So this is a huge deal. It's not just shutting down one newspaper. It's like the last island of information that can reach people other than social media platforms, which might be next. And so in terms of what the U.S. should do, I mean, look, I've said time and again, we need to set a better example.

But in addition to that, like just finding ways to the United States. lift up Hong Kong voices and to lift up journalism. And frankly, to make sure that we're doing whatever we can to try to get information that is credible to people in Hong Kong, right? Whether that's through our own broadcasting or whether that's through, again, trying to make sure that they're not able to crack down on social media platforms needs to be a part of this. And look, the people that need to do more here are also the, the, multinational companies in Hong Kong, right? You know, like, there's a ton of international business and banks and expats.

I think that they want to be able to get news. They want to be able to get uncensored information. And, like, the Chinese are going to just snuff all that out. I think real thought has to be given to, like, again, reassessing Hong Kong having this special economic status where they're treated differently than mainland China. Yeah, this is no longer a slippery slow. just a sheet of ice and everyone's flying downhill into just becoming man in China. I'd love to ask you questions at the end of these long description of what's going on.

Like, Ben, how do you solve the hardest, most intractable problem facing politics today? But, you know, there we are. Pod Save the World for you. But you mentioned Alibaba. So let's talk about Trump's fight against some other Chinese technology companies because they're escalating. So last week, in a couple weeks prior, we were talking about Trump fighting with TikTok. Now they've been expanded that to include WeChat.

And so what happened was on Thursday, Trump signed two executive orders that bar U.S. companies or persons from making transactions with the parent companies of TikTok and WeChat for 45 days. So I talked about the TikTok piece a few times, but the WeChat part is new. And I would argue a bigger deal because for those who aren't familiar, WeChat is a Chinese messaging and like mobile payment app that is over a billion users. So CNN's reporting on this described it as Facebook, LinkedIn, Uber. Instagram all rolled into one. I'd add the cash app into there. Use it for everything in China, right? You can use WeChat to hail a car, order lunch, pay for lunch, call your friend to meet you there. So it is also like the primary way that anyone outside of China stays in touch with friends and family in the mainland. WeChat is owned by a Chinese company called Tencent,

which is heavily invested in another bunch of American companies, some gaming companies, some brands. So there's a couple pieces of this, I think. Like one is the, the, the second and third order impact of these EOs. So here's an example. The Verge wrote this interesting piece about how this decision could have a massive impact on Apple's business in China because if Apple has to remove WeChat from their app store or they can't support payments through WeChat, it basically makes an iPhone useless in China. And Apple made $44 billion in China last year.

So that's a big hit. That's like 15% of their revenue. But more broadly, like it's hard to figure out the exact details and implications. of these EOs because they're poorly written. There's time to adjust them. They're like they're basically kind of ad hoc saying, oh, that's not included. That is. But I guess my question to you, Ben, is like, what is the point?

What is the value of basically cutting off all communication with Chinese citizens from the West from other companies? Like, I understand the privacy risks from TikTok. I get the data sharing concerns. I am favor of sanctioning Chinese leaders involved in crackdowns in Hong Kong. But this seems like it's just going to break. ties between, you know, Chinese expats in the U.S. and their families, and I don't get it. Yeah, I know it's how Chinese foreign students and people visiting and living in the U.S.

communicate back home. I think more broadly the concern is this. Like the Trump administration has talked a lot about decoupling, right? This is word you hear again and again. And what that basically means in the technology space is they're going to be essentially two walled-off technology ecosystems in the world. There'll be Chinese tech. and like U.S. slash Western tech, you know, and we're going to decouple. So we're going to, like, yeah, right now, some of this is intermingled. And they're, they're Western countries that use Huawei and other Chinese technology. And then inside the Chinese market, you know, Apple, Microsoft and others have been very active.

And it's incredibly disruptive to just say, we're just cutting this all off, you know. You know, it's disruptive to U.S. businesses. it's disruptive to Chinese people abroad. It's disruptive to countries that are using Huawei that are in the democratic world here. And what concerns me is that no thought is being given to this. Like, yes, there are issues that need to be addressed. There are protections that need to be put in place for privacy or cybersecurity concerns. But just cutting these cords without thinking it through.

And without thinking about the unintended consequences of what you're doing, I think invites a lot of the negative repercussions and doesn't really articulate clearly what is gained by essentially creating a technology Cold War. And here's the thing. We may end up there. Like that may be where the world is evolving towards, but they're careening over a cliff towards it without thinking it through. So I think this is just, it's just premature. Like there have to be ways to try to explore whether there are less drastic and draconian. measures to take here that address some of these concerns without just kind of like ripping

the Band-Aid off and building a literally building a law. Yeah. Just the idea that these guys like four years in or so just slapping up EOs that are so poorly written and confusing and stuff full of commas, like nobody knows how to interpret them. There's like trillion dollar industries are at the mercy of these executive orders written by like Stephen Miller's fucking assistant who who hates the Chinese. It's ridiculous.

Yeah, and if you're saying, I mean, you have to like consider like how are you, what is the goal? You know, like every policy, you know, there's a there's a nerdy thing in foreign policy, right? Like means and ends, right? But like, what is it? Where do the end that you're trying to achieve and then figure out what the means are to get there? And the Trump people only seem to think about the means. Like, I mean, I guess the end is to be like tough on China. Yeah, but like, re-election.

To what end? To achieve what? Because you're not going to like put China out of business. you're not going to, if anything, you're going to ensure Chinese domination of a whole swath of the world where Chinese technology is predominant. And the people behind that, you know, virtual iron curtain are not going to have access to Western platforms that you're yanking back out of your concerns. And, you know, so I just, I think that, again, they see every problem as a nail. And so they just pull out the hammer. But they don't think through, like,

what they're actually trying to achieve and what effect. effects this is going to happen have in the real world. Yeah, P.S., we all know that Trump asked the Chinese for help in re-election because John Bolton told us, so, you know, we'll just gloss over that, I guess. Yeah. Let's talk about another but our friends in Saudi Arabia, Ben. So last week, a former top Saudi intelligence official named Saad al-Jabri accused Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of targeting him for assassination and taking Al-Jabri's kids who were living in Saudi Arabia hostage. These details were part of a lawsuit that was filed in Washington, D.C. Jabri says that Bahhab bin Salman, or MBS will call him, wants him dead because Al Jabri knows

MBS's secrets, basically. Al Jabri has close relationships with U.S. intelligence officials, and he thinks that MBS is worried he could basically screw up his relationship with the president. So the suit alleges that in October of 2018, which was just days after the Saudis murdered Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey, MBS dispatched a team of hitmen to Toronto, to kill Al Jabri. Those guys luckily didn't get past Canadian customs officials. I guess they lied about being together and then there was a photo clearly showing them together. It also probably didn't help that they were carrying tools you could use to dismember a body. I guess that might

be a tell. The Washington Post reported that Al Jabri is credited with overseeing informants who penetrated the Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula network of AQAP in 2010 and exposed a very serious plot to send bombs hidden in printer cartridges to the U.S. Ben, we were both at the white ass at the time. And like that was yeah, that was some serious serious scary shit. Al Jopry was a close aid to Prince Mohammed bin Nayef. MBN, as he's known, was deposed by Mohamed bin Salman. And so it's part of that big split in the Saudi family. Ben, it's worth just pointing out, like there's not a lot of evidence to back up these claims. I guess, you know, if the Canadians have video of these dudes trying to get in the country with like bone saws,

that would be useful. But, you know, the Saudis basically now have a couple weeks to respond to this suit. MBS will likely lobby the U.S. hard to get him immunity in the case and have it dismissed. I assume Al Jopri's goal here is to bring public attention to his plight and maybe get some safety that way. We can't confirm this story, but there's been lots of reporting about Saudi efforts to silence critics abroad. The New Yorker had a long piece in January 2019 about this that described MBS as, quote, working through embassies and backchannels to silence critics through blackmail intimidation and forced repatriation. That harassment includes people like Koshoggi and then just private citizens who he just, want to get back at. So Ben, I don't even know what to say about these guys anymore. Like, the only

people carrying water for the Saudis in MBS are like Trump, Jared, Kushner, and defense contractors who want to sell them weapons that kill Yemeni kids. I just, I have to imagine at this point that if MBS sticks around, like the U.S. Saudi relationship is going to massively deteriorate post-Trump, or at least I can pray that's the case. Well, yeah, I mean, the first thing that jumps out to me here is it like, if a murderer gets away with murder, even though he's been caught, he's going to do it again. You know, and like, this is what a lot of us said at the time. Like, the U.S. had information that this guy ordered a hit in a third country against a prominent person, in this case, Jamal Khashoggi, using bonesaws to dismember him in the most gruesome way.

And Trump knew all this and then embraced, literally embraced MBS. And so, of course he's doing it again. Like, again, there are consequences to these things. And we don't want to live in a, I mean, I can't believe you even have to say that we should not live in a world where countries can assassinate people with impunity in third, anywhere, for that matter, but in third countries, you know. And again, this is a prominent figure that's MBS trying to send a message that nobody's safe who criticizes me.

And that should be chilling to everybody. And by the way, also, like, MBS reportedly dispatched agents to the U.S. to harass this guy and his family. So, you know, the Khashoggi thing, maybe you could argue, okay, that all happened to Turkey, didn't happen here. They did this here. The Saudis were harassing people here. They had people at Twitter, right, you know, as part of their campaigns to kind of

monitor people. I mean, this is so much more far-reaching. And, yeah, to your point, like, if Joe Biden wins, like, we just, it cannot be business as usual. Like, this will be, to me, the first major litmus test as to where, you know, to where, you or not like a Biden administration gets just how much the world has changed under Trump. You know, this is not, we can't just say like, well, we're going to raise human rights concerns. No, this relationship needs a fundamental rethink here, a fundamental reassessment.

Because we are currently engaged in a war with these people in Yemen. We're currently shipping them tens of billions of dollars worth of weapons while they're doing this stuff. That cannot continue. Can't continue. A few other quicker ones. So residents of Mauritius, which is an island east of Madagascar and the Indian Ocean, are calling for urgent international help to stop the economic and ecological damage from an oil spill that has already leaked 1,000 tons and could dump 2,500 more. Local authorities have done what they can to plug this leak, but they're concerned that this tanker that ran aground could just split in half. The spill has already devastated local wildlife, the local economy, the local food supply. The ship is Japanese. Japan said they're going to help with these. operation, but locals are calling for a full-scale international response. Let's hope they get it. We just wanted to raise that because this sounds like a potential disaster. Yeah, and the kind of thing that, you know, is not front and center. We're giving all the other news in the world. But again, like, this is another reason why you need like a functioning vehicle for collective action around

the world, which is missing in the absence of the U.S. playing that role. Because, you know, these kinds of things can have devastating and long-lasting ecological impacts. So good to raise it. And the kind of thing that I'd like to see the U.S., again, if there's a change administration, would take the lead in the response to this kind of thing. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen under Trump. Let's turn to Zimbabwe for a second, because people in Zimbabwe have been protesting human rights abuses in their country by posting images with the hashtag Zimbabwe and Lives Matter.

So this social media campaign is calling out police brutality, political oppress, the unfair arrest of protesters, corruption, economic mismanagement, a whole lot of stuff. For well over a year, security forces loyal to Zimbabwe's president Emerson, Managawa, have been arresting protesters, raping women, torturing prisoners. Managawa came to power in 2017 after a military coup against longtime dictator Robert Mugabe. People were very happy to see Mugabe go for a while. There was a hope of a new democratic future for Zimbabwe. But Montagawa seems to have fallen back into

Mugabe's old ways. There was a weird failed assassination attempt on Mangawa's life in 2018, I believe. So Ben, I've noticed this campaign online. I wanted to lift it up here on the show. Are there international institutions that you think, like similar to our previous topic about Mauritius that should be calling out this repression that should be supporting this protest movement? Like, what are the best way to support folks who are doing this like do it yourself human rights campaign? Well, I think that the first thing is I'm glad we're talking about it in part because a lot of times in the U.S. and in the West, like, you know, Belarus gets a lot of attention, you know, but Zimbabwe doesn't. You know, like if it's, you know, movements in Europe, right,

with largely white people, like it sometimes gets more attention than what happens in Africa or, you know, in Southeast Asia, for instance. And what's so distressing here is, like, you're right, like you thought maybe a window of opportunity opened after Mugabe, and clearly that didn't happen. In terms of what should happen, you know, first of all, I think just, I do think that in this kind of new world that we're in, where there's kind of a global mobilization happening of people who want democracy and human rights, that it is useful that this draw international support and that there's a sense of solidarity. And that that's expressed online and that's expressed in the attention people pay to things.

It gives, I've talked to activists in these places, like they do take comfort and motivation from the fact that the world sees them and that people are seeing what they're trying to do and that people are trying to help them get their messages out or their images out. I think closer to policy, I wish that, you know, the neighborhood cared more about this. You know, South Africa, for instance, which prides itself on democracy, like, you know, has been very bad in speaking out on behalf of human rights often in Zimbabwe. I'd like to see other African nations. that have moved more in the direction of democracy, raising their voice in addition to the U.S. And this is also a case where you'd want to see international bodies like the Human Rights Council

at the United Nations that the U.S. is no longer on because of Trump, you know, raising these types of issues. Because what you want to get to a place is where there's civic activism, there's a global civil society that's supporting protest, that there's regional infrastructure or regional actors. So in the case of, you know, Southern Africa, South Africa, Botswana, other, countries that they can raise a voice, and that there's multilateral entities like the UN system. Or, you know, countries like in Europe, the EU and others who have trading relationships to Zimbabwe, you know, raising their voice and trying to exert some leverage here, it takes kind of on all of the above approach here. And look, if it has to start with hashtags, it has

to start with hashtags. Yeah. Well, good for the people who been posting these images, these hashtags. Everyone should do their best to amplify them because it's a courageous thing to do. Ben, this next story will sound familiar to you. A volcano in Indonesia called Mount Sinabung started erupting Saturday after a year of being dormant. So volcanic materials from this eruption reed heights of 16,400 feet. They dumped inches of ash on local villages. Hopefully, hopefully, most people are safe. NBC reported that like 30,000 people have left the area in recent years because of the volcano. And these eruptuels. But Ben, listeners might hear this and think, like, okay, volcanoes are cool.

Like, why is this on a global news podcast? Well, that's because in 2010, we had an Obama foreign trip to Asia, including to Jakarta, Indonesia. And that was impacted by a similar volcanic eruption in Indonesia. We were talking about canceling the trip for a while. We ultimately, I think, cut it short because surprise, surprise, you can't fly through volcanic ash. But it's just, it's a reminder how, like, unbelievably powerful these. volcanoes are and how they can have global implications if there's a major eruption. Yeah, no, we had to high-tail it out of Indonesia to avoid the volcano. And yeah, no, I think these are, I mean, 2020 is a hell of a year, right?

You know, we've got, we had like COVID and the plague of locust and volcanoes erupting and oil spills. And, you know, it's a reminder that the Earth has the final say on a lot of things. Sure does. But again, like in Indonesia, a linchpin of Southeast Asia. you know, key member of the major regional organization, they're ASEAN, and a country that doesn't get, I think, the attention of the United States and the world that it should, given its size and importance. You don't want to see the humanitarian suffering,

and you don't want to see any sense of destabilization because of natural disaster. So it is worth watching. And, you know, a reminder that, you know, you can control a lot of things. Yeah. Can't really control the volcano. No, no, you cannot. Not even Joe versus. First COVID mention of the day from me. On Tuesday,

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the approval of a coronavirus vaccine. Putin declared it a world first and said that one of his own daughters had taken the vaccine. It's called Sputnik V. It has not gone through phase three trials, which are the trials where thousands of people get a vaccine to make sure it doesn't kill you. Very cool for Vlad's daughter to be a guinea pig. Russia has released no data about this. alleged vaccine. Ben, I'm a firm believer in science and vaccinations, but there is literally no way in hell you could convince me to take a rushed Russian vaccine. Like, joking aside, this is pretty serious because we need people globally to trust and take an eventual coronavirus

vaccine, right? Because look, there's a lot of people who are immune deficient or for many reasons won't be able to take vaccines. And if they're a bunch of assholes who refuse to take them because they watched Plandemic and they walk around with asymptomatic spread, they could kill people who are unable to take it. So, look, fortunately, a lot of other countries and companies have vaccines in phase three trials. It's good news for us because I would rather go to a chicken pox party in Orange County than take Vladimir's rushed bullshit. Yeah. I mean, this shows you the extent to which like Putin is kind of just a troll of the world, you know, like, oh, pop up, got a vaccine called Sputnik, you know, no data. But you made the key point here, which is,

like, I'm very nervous that there's going to be competing vaccines and disinformation about vaccines. And if, say, the Chinese develop the vaccine first that, you know, others will want to say they have their own vaccine or vice versa. And what we need is an incredibly disciplined, organized, and coordinated scaling up of the vaccine that works, no matter where it comes from. And then the dissemination of that vaccine globally, because if you're not eradicating the disease globally, you're not eradicating the disease globally, you're not.

like you're not really eradicating it. And this is a reminder of how difficult that's going to be because, you know, all, you know, I'm waiting for the Duterte vaccine or the Erdogan vaccine, right, or the Bolsonaro vaccine. Like, is this going to be the trend now, Putin trend setting? Like, and like, let's just, again, like, we've learned one thing. Let the science and the data tell us what works and just do what it tells us to do

rather than listening to some leader just declaring victory on this. Yeah, until then, smoke your hydroxychloroquine. Ben, we've somehow accidentally happened upon a series here, which is called Ambassadors Gone Wild. And I have another addition that I'm very excited about, although it's a little less funny, but hopefully this asshole will never get the job. So Trump nominated a retired Army colonel named Douglas McGregor to be his ambassador to Germany. Very important job, by the way. It used to be held by Twitter troll named Rick Rennell. McGregor is, he's a decorated combat veteran turned Fox News fixture, which is how you're

get the job these days. Here are just a few of the terrible things he has said. He said Muslim migrants are going to Europe, quote, with the goal of eventually turning Europe into an Islamic state, he called for martial law at the U.S.-Mexico border and said that we should shoot to kill people there, if necessary. He went on RT, which is the Russian propaganda network, to say that eastern Ukrainians are Russians, which the U.S. and the EU vociferously disagree with, but Russia loves. He criticized German culture for wanting to atone for the sins of Nazi Germany. He said that was stupid, which is, boy, I don't even know how to unpack. So there's so much more. I do think it was notable, Ben, is like, early on, right, that you would have the occasional nominee. They'd get

picked. People would start, like, Googling them and vetting them. And I think the administration would learn about crazy views like this and be embarrassed and maybe dump them. Now I think this guy got picked because of these terrible views. There's no way around it anymore. I mean, like, Germany is one of the most important countries in the world. And, like, can you imagine what, like, Angela Merkel bought when she got the news that this fucking lunatic was being selected as ambassador? Right. Like, there's just some crazy conspiracy set of views and, you know, friendly to, I mean, literally, the U.S. German relationship is meant to stand up to, like, Russian invasions of Western countries like Ukraine. the whole project was supposed to be about

the Germans rejecting their Nazi past not having a problem with them doing that you know and so like we see this as like comic in a way because it is to some extent in a dark way yeah but imagine what it's like to Germany like what a sign of disrespect like this lunatics like this nominated and the thing that worries me is it like it Trump like some of these people are popping up

and we're thinking well the elections in a few months like what if he wins Like, these people are going to be running the whole government if he wins. All these lunatics that we've been talking about are going to be in charge. So, again, the stakes are really high here. I guess what's it called, Al-Gremont? I guess Merkel doesn't have to accept him. But is that if you really want to pick? I don't know.

I don't know what you do. I would. I mean, what's the point? It's not like Trump, you know, shows any respect for her or for Germany. Like, I mean, just like, there's no reason to, like, let these people in. Yeah, let the DCM handle it. Okay, last thing, Ben. And so apparently Trump today did an interview with his favorite bootlicker slash meet the press fixture, Hugh Hewitt.

So I guess Hugh on this radio show asked Trump about football. I guess presumably it's a conversation about whether the college football season should start this year because the white house is now pushing this really hard because I don't know, whatever. But Trump said the following about Patriots coach Bill Belichick. Quote, if I ever had a military battle, I'd call up Belichick and say, what do you think? what do you think give me a couple ideas he'd be as good as any general out there end quote so first of all don you've had a military battle i think there's an ongoing war in afghanistan you might want to look into second as a patriots fan i've been known to often say in bill we trust but i do not think that his knowledge of like the three four defense is going to help against the taliban like rob grankowski

tough to cover less so if you have a gun what are you talking about man what are you talking about I mean, I can't believe we're here, you know, like in year four, you know. And the guy's like Hugh Hewitt, I mean, like to take a detour, like this guy has trolled me for years, right? And Susan Rice and all of us who in the Obama administration has a bunch of incompetent amateurs, right? And his whole thing with me is like, I'm such an amateur. I was too young. And meanwhile, he's slobbering and salivating all over a president who's talking about like outsourcing his fucking foreign policy and his war policy to like a football coach, you know?

Like, what a bunch of bullshit, you know, like, why? And yet people take this guy seriously. Like, you know, chin stroking like, oh, yeah, Hugh Hewitt is one of the Republicans who should go and meet the press and be listened to and taken seriously. Like, give me a break. I do want to say, Tommy, like, I, and I feel I can say this because I revisited the ownership of my teams. The Patriots, man, like Tom Brady, Belichick, like Robert Kraft and in the massage parlor

I mean, I'm sorry. Does it affect your view of those championships? I guess you have to separate sports and stuff from politics and just move for your team, I know, but it sucks that these guys keep coming up. You wish it was like Greg Popovich or something, you know? Oh, yeah. Look, I mean, I also have Kurt Schilling, who was a hero for the Red Sox when he pitched through the Bloody Sock game. And now he is like the most unhinged Manga guy possible on Twitter. Yeah, look, I don't.

love it, but I do absolutely compartmentalize my life or else I would get through it. But just back to Hugh Hewitt quick, though, just like the thing about Hugh is the peak of his career was working for Richard Nixon. Yeah. Right. And then he just like attacked everybody for a while. And now his son works at the State Department, right? He's a, he works for Mike Pompeo. And Hugh Hewitt interviewed Mike Pompeo at the Nixon Library where Pompeo basically, uh, laid out a strategy that attacked everything Nixon ever stood for when it came to China. And, you know, Hugh Hewitt is like, thank you, sir, may I have another? And he looks past the fact that Trump is cool with putting Uekers in concentration camps

and letting Hong Kong's democracy get crushed. Like, he's just, it's a morally bankrupt thing. It annoys the fuck out of me that Chuck Todd allows that guy on his show. It makes meet the press unwatchable. And like, I like Chuck as a host. I like him as a person. But it embarrasses the show. It embarrasses the network to have Hugh Hewitt on there.

He's a blatant conflict of interest. And he is a hack. He's a hack. We've learned who he is. And this is why this matters, right? You know, bomb throwing, critic of Obama fine. Like, I didn't like it. He was particularly mean about me.

Like, don't go down to the same rabbit hole of figuring out just how obsessed this guy was with me because it was weird for a while. But now we've seen who he is, right? He's fully hook, line and sinker, bought on to the Trump project. If Joe Biden wins, you can bet that this guy is going to be trying to rehabilitate himself as some thoughtful conservative voice. Totally. And it will be a very interesting litmus test

as to whether or not Washington just reopens its arms to people like this who've gone along with the project 1 million percent. And will, I guarantee you, if Trump loses, he'll be seeking to reposition himself

as some thoughtful conservative who had some issues with what Trump was doing. No, no, we see who he is. You know? And like we don't have to, we don't have to like, out of some devotion to a sense of balance with people who are full of shit, like give them huge platforms.

The one thing I was going to say, Tommy, just make you feel better. Darryl Strawberry is apparently like a Republican. Really? I'm a Met fan. He's like that my last championship was 1986 Mets. And I was shocked that like straw is like apparently like a Trump guy. So it's not just not just the, I'm doing the same compartmentalization you are, man. You know, like I give people a lot of leeway for their own personal political views.

It's like when people start, you know, using their platform or brand or money to like, you know, promote a demagogue, that's when I get a little bit pissed off. So I think like Tom Brady having the dumb MAGA hat in his locker room, it annoyed me. But I think it was kind of overstated. Like I think there were buddies back in the day when he was some just dofis on the apprentice. But I don't know. Hopefully the guys figured it out by now. But that's enough of our, uh, now almost weekly sports section of the

show, which frankly I enjoy. But when we come back, we are going to have my interview with the Washington Post, Beirut Bureau Chief Liz Sly. Do not skip that. It's an incredible story about what it was like being in Beirut during that horrifying explosion. All the challenges Beirut has had for decades politically and what you can do to help. I am thrilled to be joined today by the Washington Post Bayroot Bureau Chief Liz Sly. Liz, thank you so much for making time for us after this just horrible week. Well, thank you for having me. So I'm sure listeners know this, but last week there was this massive explosion that rocked Beirut when 2,750 tons of ammonium nitrate that had just been sitting around unprotected in a

warehouse by the port for years detonated. Liz, I saw the video you tweeted of your apartment and the destruction and just the unbelievable amount of glass and rubble across Lebanon. So my first question is honestly just, how are you doing? Oh, I'm doing fine. Thank you. It's been an extremely exhausting week, as you can imagine, because not only where we sort of jolted out of our wits by this thing, we've had to be working around the clock trying to cover it. And in some ways, that's a good thing because you don't have too much time to stitch around thinking about what happened to you. And on the other hand,

I'm feeling extremely like I've been running a marathon for the past week. Yeah. I mean, at the risk of asking too personal a question, are you able to stay in your home or work out of your home? What are people doing to manage? No, no. The building is uninhabitable at the moment. I've moved to a friend's apartment on another side of town, the side of town that wasn't really affected very badly.

We're several miles away. But the further you get from the center of the blast, the less and less the damage becomes. But even what's extraordinary is that there is even damage, how far where I am now, the building across the street, directly across the street, lost all its windows. My friend's building did not. She's fine, although the cat hasn't been normal for days now.

Oh, that's so sad. So like you mentioned, I mean, there are reports of potentially hundreds dead from the blast, thousands injured. We've seen figures as high as 250,000 people who may have been pushed out of their homes. Is the government or any other entity helping people get treatment or shelter? Are they stepping in? The government is almost nowhere to be seen. What we have seen is some extraordinary scenes of the civil society,

the ordinary Lebanese, coming together to form teams of young people who go into people's apartments. They've cleaned the streets of glass. They've gone into the apartments, swept up the glass in people's apartments, people who go home to retrieve possessions, find that apartments have been cleaned. They've scrubbed the blood off the walls. already the awfulness of the scene and the immediate aftermath of that last has become a lot more palatable and a lot more easy to deal with. But the government has done absolutely nothing. What this explosion has done is it has exposed the hollowness of the Lebanese state,

the empty shell that's a figment of a state that just doesn't really have capacity, it doesn't have ability, it doesn't have compassion, it doesn't have institutions, or at the moment to any money to deal with this problem. Yeah. I mean, speaking of doing nothing, there's reports this morning that Lebanese security officials warned the government about this ammonia nitrate as recently as July, and I'm sure that was by no means the first.

I mean, the other really dire humanitarian warning that I'm seeing has to do with Lebanon's port. The head of the UN food agency said he's concerned that Lebanon could run out of bread in just weeks, because 85% of the grain comes through that now, destroyed port and those silos that are there. How concerned are people about potential food shortages and is anything being done to help maybe by the international community? People are rushing food in. Of course, I think it's a bit early to tell what the immediate loss of capacity at the Beirut port is going to do for the country's long-term ability to

secure enough food. What struck me as just as interesting about this port situation is that Lebanon is supposed to maintain a three to four months supply of food stocks of grain storage, as most countries do, an emergency reserve of grain in case of some unforeseen disaster. So the Minister of Agriculture was actually boasting that it's okay that this grain silo got blown up because it wasn't full. They only had 15,000 tons of a capacity of 14,000 tons, which was only enough to last the country. two weeks. And this is apparently a good thing because they only lost two weeks of food of grain. Wow, that is. And there is a port at Tripoli and people can bring food in. But this country was

already, as you know, in a dire state of crisis. I could not believe how dreadful things were before this explosion happened. It's really just hard to see how this country picks up from this at all. Yeah, I mean, you alluded to this earlier. You know, I've really been struck by the images, many of them shared by you on Twitter of ordinary people, some, you know, badly wounded themselves, cleaning up the streets of Beirut, and there's just no government help to be seen. I was also struck by the massive protests. And unfortunately, those protesters were met by government security forces who were wielding tear gas, rubber bullets, other weapons. The entire government resigned on Monday evening. Do you think that's going

to go far enough to address the rage in the wake of this explosion? No, not at all. It doesn't make any difference at all. One thing I've learned in the 13 years I've lived here is that government makes no difference at all. And I have this only half serious joke, but it is half serious that the more peaceful and stable times we've had in Lebanon are when we don't have a government. It takes Lebanese months, if not years, to form governments because they all argue with each other so much. The attempt to form a government brings out sector. and religious community differences in a really acute and dangerous way that puts everybody on edge. And government is ineffective one way or the other. What this does do is it means that the guys who are there now stay indefinitely while a new government is formed. But that for a new government to be formed under the current laws and processes means that there has to be a consensus among all the existing politicians and community. roots. Now that's precisely the system way of operating that has brought this country to its knees and which the protesters want to see abolished and not just a shift in the government,

but a completely new system, a revolution, a total turnover, and that's just a long way from happening. Yeah, I mean, you're alluding the fact that, you know, Lebanon was in an economic crisis, a political crisis long before this explosion. Can you just give listeners a bit of a sense of that history and how it came to be that sectarianism and corruption and these warring factions have just completely hamstrung the political system, the economy, and hurt the Lebanese people so much. Well, you can go back to 1942 when the departing French coloniers created a system that divided positions in the government, the top positions in government along sectarian lines. So the president would be a Christian.

The prime minister would be a Sunni and the Speaker of Parliament would be a Shia. That is not exactly written down, but what it's done in a de facto kind of way is spawn a system where even the security guards who man an x-ray machine at Bayou airport have to be divided up amongst the sex. This has created a system where appointments are not made on merit. They're not made on the best qualified candidate. They're made according to whether or not enough people from each sector represented. And what this has done is empower the already powerful sectarian leaders who lead these communities to distribute these jobs as if they were sort of candies or rewards to people who follow them.

So many people in this country owe their livelihoods to the benevolence dispensation of jobs and patronage of these key powerful families. And those families are the same ones who fought a civil war amongst each other. since the Civil War, they've all gone into government together and kind of colluded, if you like, while remaining rivals of each other, in sucking dry the resources, the income of this country. To an extent that nobody really realized until this year, they have actually milched dry and shared among them the entire banking deposits of the country, which have now vanished. Unbelievable. I mean, you mentioned the sort of French colonial history.

I saw that President Macron of France visited and that France and the UN are planning to lead an international donor conference that so far has pledged $300 million, I believe, in humanitarian assistance. Trump has said he'll contribute in some way, but not an amount. Are there estimates of what's needed to solve the short term and then the long-term reconstruction challenge in Lebanon? I think it's way too early to tell that. There's a kind of outpouring of generosity towards this country at the moment, but whether it's all going in the right direction or not.

I mean, everybody's being blown up. You know, offices have been blown up. The UN had 27 people injured. The NGOs who know what's going on have people injured wrecked properties. Way too early to put any estimates on this. But the total amount of damage, they said in the first few days was three to five billion. And now they're saying it's like 10 to 15 billion. Wow.

I don't know. But it's really clear that the money to rebuild this country is not going to materialise. 300 million is a drop in the bucket. For example, you can't withdraw money from your bank account at the moment. And the banks are kind of quite cleverly disguised the fact that they've lost everybody's money because it's gone with their schemes and financial engineering, which hid where the money was going. So the fact that there isn't any money in the banking system has been quite cleverly masked

by the fact that everybody since October has been severely restricted in the amounts they may withdraw from their own bank accounts. A lot of Lebanese weren't poor. People would talk about having $80,000, $100,000 in the bank, that kind of thing. They can't access that money. And the reason they can't is because it doesn't exist. And the banks have put restrictions on that. Now they need that money to rebuild their homes and they can't take it out of the banks.

So they're not going to be able to rebuild. And you realize, of course, what that leads to, everybody says, well, I'm not sticking around to rebuild in this country. Everybody wants to leave. Yeah, I mean, how concerned do you think Lebanon's neighbors are about, you know, the state collapsing and that leading to massive refugee flows out of the country? I mean, I saw a statistic where I believe one in six people in Lebanon currently are actually refugees, mostly from Syria. That seems destabilizing in and of itself. Yes, the Lebanese have no exit. Somebody was saying to me today, we are a landlock country and our only exit is the sea, which doesn't totally make sense.

But all around to the north and to the east is Syria. I mean, lots of Lebanese wouldn't be welcoming, because there's a large segment of the population that has supported the revolution against Bashar al-Assad. And Syria is in a worse state than Lebanon. And to the south-ist Israel and Lebanon and Israel have been in a state of war since 1948, and they're still in a state of war. and that border was jumping and hopping with tensions even before this explosion went off.

I mean, you can't cross that border. You just can't. So the only exit they have is to get on a plane and go to a foreign country. Our president, Donald Trump, immediately decided to call this blast an attack. He was wrong, as far as we know. Did that even register with people?

Did it cause confusion? No, because everybody already believed there was an attack. When you have an explosion, like that, there was no question in my mind in the first like 30 minutes to an hour that we were under Israeli attack, because tensions on the border had been increasing. I've been in two suicide bombings in Baghdad. I was in the building that was directly targeted and it kind of fell down around me. It felt like that. We all, everybody in Beirut believed there was a direct attack on their house at that minute. But what it actually was was such a huge explosion in one place. that everybody had an attack on their building. We were all experiencing the same thing, but a lot of people hadn't registered

that there was a fire at the port that suddenly took off. If you didn't have a view of the port, you didn't know that. Everybody heard this roar before the explosion. I put quite a lot on Twitter about this. I heard a roar. It was the sound of aircraft. I was 100% sure. I have been through Israeli bombings here,

the 2006 war, and Israeli raids in Vyut in the 80s as well and the ISIS war in Syria and Iraq this was warplanes flying over my house I was sure I ran onto the balcony to look for them I couldn't see any warplanes I turned around to go back off the balcony whoosh boom the explosion hit

and I was extremely lucky because if I'd been just on the other side of the glass it all would have blown into me but I was just parallel with the glass and we all flew into the room together. I believe we were under Israeli attack. And sort of about an hour later, somebody played me a video of the attack,

and I began to realize what had happened, and that it wasn't an Israeli attack. But still people didn't know why this whole thing had gone off in the first place. So yes, for that first night, many, many people in Beirut believe this was an Israeli attack or something to do with an Israeli attack, because that's what's caused so much of war in Lebanon in the past as well. Now, I am now convinced by the videos I've seen and the scientific explanations I've heard

that that roar I heard, which was exactly like the roar of warplanes flying very low over your head, was actually some kind of physical effect of the air being sucked in and the explosion taking off. And it's very clear from the videos. Yeah. And you've posted a lot of really helpful video to help people reconstruct what happen, including some very high definition 4K video that shows you, you know, slow motion, the just unfolding of the shockwave, which, you know, it brings me my last question, but first I just want to say thank you again for talking to us today. And thank you for your incredibly brave reporting in dangerous situations. It reminds me all over again why it's disgusting

when Trump attacks the fake news media because they're the people out there literally risking their lives. But last question for you is, you know, I think a lot of listeners are hearing you talk, they will want to do something to help the people of Lebanon, to donate somewhere, to contribute. Are there organizations you think are especially good that people should support? Well, I really would have to just say the Red Cross of Lebanon. They are the heroes of this. They were the heroes of the Civil War in the 80s. They crossed front lines. They pick people up under whatever circumstances. They've been picking people up with coronavirus. They've been going out there with very little in the way of protective fear and picking up the coronavirus

as victims and taking them off to hospital. And they are out there on the streets. They know what they're doing and they are not connected to the government. And there are lots of organizations here doing good work. I don't have the means to kind of gather them, but the Red Cross of Lebanon are heroes. Great. That's a great place to steer donations. A great piece of advice.

Lislai, thank you again for your amazing reporting for talking to us. Everyone should follow you on Twitter and read your columns in your reporting at the Washington post because it is excellent, excellent stuff. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks to Liz Lie for coming on the show. Thanks to Bill Belichick for, you know, diagramming some plays for us in terms of the forthcoming invasion of Iran. We're really appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Bye, guys. Pats of the World is a crooked media production. The Executive Producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller. Pots Save the World is mixed and edited by Chris Basil. Kyle Segglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to our amazing

digital team Elijah Cohn, Nar Melconian, and Milo Kim, who film and share our episodes videos every week.