Pod Save the World - Putin and Zelensky deliver messages to the world

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

Tommy and Ben record a second episode this week on Ukraine to discuss President Zelensky’s speech to Congress, the latest on US weapons transfers to Ukraine, Vladimir Putin’s terrifying authoritarian speech, Russian attacks on civilians, hope for peace talks, bad faith attacks on Biden by Republicans and the frustrating way Ukraine is being covered in the US. Then Ben speaks with Sviatoslav Yurash, the youngest member of Ukraine's Parliament about the post-Maidan generation and his close friend, journalist Oleksandra Kuvshynova who was killed while covering the war. How to Help in Ukraine Ukrainian Congress Committee of America: donate to humanitarian efforts United Help Ukraine: donate to the life-saving medical supplies to Ukraine’s front lines Revived Soldiers Ukraine: donate to treatment of the wounded and the provision of hospitals Razom for Ukraine: donate to tactical medical training and emergency response in Ukraine Nova Ukraine: donate to humanitarian aid for Ukraine Vox: How you can help Ukrainians For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.  

Welcome back to Potsave the World on Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. Ben, good to see you again. We're doing another extra episode this week because it just feels like there's been a lot. Yeah, I mean, it's been like not even three days and it feels like it's been three weeks. Yeah, so it's 515 Pacific time on Thursday. Things we're going to talk about today, President Zelensky's speech to Congress on Wednesday, the latest on U.S. assistance to Ukraine, including weapons transfers.

Vladimir Putin's terrifying, bizarre, authoritarian, authoritarian rant, peace talks and attacks on civilians. And then I just have to do it, Ben. I know this is a serious foreign policy show, but I just need to talk about bad faith attacks from Republicans and press coverage because I'm starting to lose my mind. Yeah, well, I mean, unfortunately,

that's part of the background noise that we're going to be dealing for a long. They will never escape. And then, Ben, you spoke, you did an interview this morning with the youngest member of Ukraine's parliament. Can you tell us a bit about the conversation? Yeah, I talked to Vyadislav Yorash,

who's the youngest member of parliament in Ukraine, is 26 years old. Wow. And he was incredibly close to the young journalist who was killed. Was she with the Fox News crew? She was with the Fox News crew. And so we talked about her. And I think it kind of, you know, in a war,

you start to hear about casualty numbers. It's, I think, important to kind of dig into the lives of some of the individual people to remind you just how much is behind those numbers. And then he talks about, I think, very eloquently about his generation. It's a generation of Ukrainians who were born after Ukrainian independence and led the protests in the Maidan in 2013 and 14 that kind of consolidated Ukrainian democracy. And the role he's playing now. And he is, you know, he said to me, like he, he's never had military training until he got his weapon, you know, at the beginning of the war. And he's provided. And he's provided

providing humanitarian relief on the front lines and really risking it all. And so if you want to hear a really raw depiction of what it's like to lose somebody, to be in the middle of it, to be fighting for something you believe in, it was a really powerful conversation. His tweets about her and losing her were just gut-wrenching. Yeah, I mean, you could tell this was like, you know, as important to him as anybody in his life, you know. And they're at that young age where they probably thought they had so much time. Yeah. And that's just the horror of this war.

I mean, like, radicalized is like an almost pejorative term. But I wonder Vladimir Putin never thinks about how he has radicalized a generation of Ukrainians against him, against Russia, against any sort of acquiescence to their leadership or oversight or rules. I mean, it's not that the country was like particularly welcoming of invaders. They have a long history as we've discussed. But my God. Yeah, no, I think that's, I mean, I think that's an important point because, you know, he said, and some of you may have seen this and without knowing that this was the guy, he tweeted about her yesterday. And again, we should say her name, Alexandra Kushnoyev.

And he said, her I loved, Decative Happiness and Sadness, Joy and Pain, Meaning and Loss. only death could have parted us. Now I learned to hate. You shall never be forgotten. They shall never be forgiven. And I think that's right on the nose of what you're saying. That is it, Putin's not going to be able to control these people. He cannot win this war.

No, no. Because as he said to me, like everybody now is getting to that place where they know someone who they've lost, you know. But yet still at the end, you know, he talked about the messages yes for Russians. You know, they know they have to live next to these people, you know, one way or another. So I think they're sorting through the determination to resist with the recognition that, you know, there's still on the back end of this war, that's going to be their neighbor. Yeah, well, I'm excited to hear that interview. It sounds powerful. And, you know, look,

President Zelensky has gone through a similar transformation in a couple of weeks, right? So let's start with his speech to Congress. So here's a clip from the end of his, I think, 15 minute or so address. At the leader of my niche, I am addressing the president Biden. You are the leader of the niche, of your great nation. I wish you to be the leader of the world. Being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace. These Ukrainians, man, they speak Ukrainian, Russian, perfect English.

God knows how many other languages. That was the end of his remarks where he spoke in English. He spoke in Ukrainian for most of it. He also referenced Mount Rushmore, the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, the 9-11 attacks. Slensky did an I have a dream riff and a nod to Martin Luther King. He also played a gut-wrenching roughly two-minute video of sort of what Ukraine was like before and after the invasion that included some really graphic video of wounded and killed civilians. Ben, you know, I think Zelensky has proven to be masterful when it comes to tailoring his

message to tug on the heartstrings of the audience. He invoked Churchill during his speech to Britain's House of Commons. He was, you know, directly appealing to Justin Trudeau and his speech up in Canada. It's also clear that he wants to sound grateful to the U.S. for all the support that's come through while also, like, strongly pressuring the White House to do more. Do you think that Zelensky, like, hit the sweet spot there and, you know, any other takeaways for you from the speech, like as a speechwriter as a human being? No, well, yeah, speechwriter and human being. I, as a speechwriter, I'm at the risk of, like, piling on the fan club here.

I'm in kind of awe at the pace at which he's turning these things out. And I don't think he's getting, you know, I'm in the kind of speechwriter club here in America. I don't think this is being written by, you know, consultants somewhere. This is something he's doing with his team. And, you know, what he's tapping into, we talked about the generational. aspect of it, you know, that he, you know, he's younger, he's, he's, he's not wearing a suit and tie. He's, he's, he's, he's, he's someone who's communicating in ways that are familiar to us, you know, phones and Zooms. But like, beyond that, he's tapping into a kind of populism.

An article in the Atlantic recently, Hinge of History that, that talked about some of this, you know, he's, he's kind of remade populism. You know, populism has come this kind of bad word. Yeah, it's kind of. Steve Bannan. It's ethno-nationalist, grievance-based garbage. And it's like Putin is a populist in a lot of ways, right? It's like it's all ethnicity and grievance and history. Zelensky is this populist of kind of idealism and community.

And the one common thread in all of his speeches to these democracies is he's hitting our deepest historical chords in every country, right? And he's basically highlighting the gap between like who we say we are and like what we actually do. You know, like the words carved into, you know, memorials in Washington versus like the reality of, are we really fighting for these things? Yeah. We can't even get our shit together to, like, you know, pass a law in the United States. And these people in Ukraine are fighting and dying on the front lines for democracy. And it's kind of stirred something inside of our democracies about this is all supposed to be about something more important than our narrow partisan objectives, which we'll get to.

We'll get to that. You know, today he addressed the German Bundestag, the German parliament, and he went after them. He hit the Holocaust. And, you know, the words never again need to mean something. And he said, all we heard from you over the years when we were warning you about like Nord Stream 2, the pipeline was business, business, business. You care more about business than you care about democracy basically. Wow. And you built a wall around us.

And he said, tear down this wall. So once again, you know, like this. guy, every country goes to. He's got a forest gum vibe. He's got a list, yeah. But there's a mentality too of like this guy ran out of fucks to give like a long time ago, you know?

And you would too, obviously if there were, you know, bombs and shells raining down on your city. But I think to your question too, like what was really astute is, you know, he knows the politics. And so he wants to push, but he also wants to be grateful. And he said,

I want this no-fly zone. Here's why. But if you can't, do that, like I need all this other stuff, which is very smart, right? Because incredibly smart because he knows, okay, I'm asking for something that I know you guys don't want to give me. So since I've set you up to let me down, well, then make up, make it up to me by giving me all this other stuff. Yeah, give me the S300 missile defenses. Yeah, give me the missile defenses. Give me the air. And I think that is really smart. And so this is one of those things where the guy merits the adulation he's getting. I mean, he's just, like, he's hitting every note.

Yeah, like, it's a big moment, right? I mean, I feel like sometimes words can take on an extra sense of meaning in the moments in which they happen if they're big enough, but I think he's rising to it as well. Slensky also pointedly called on all U.S. corporations to stop doing business in Russia, and I think his lobbyists may be called out Qualcomm specifically. He also proposed creating something called the U-24, something called United for Peace, which is a union of these countries that will intervene to stop conflicts immediately. I understand the sentiment seems fraught for sort of, if that's a military intervention. But you alluded to this, Ben. So the White House Congress, they're just plowing money into weapons and aid for Ukraine still, rightly. I mean, Biden signed a

$13.6 billion assistance package earlier this week. We talked in great detail on Tuesday about this Ukrainian request for Meg fighter jets. And just an aside on, that. I was reading this Department of Defense transcript. And the only thing they object to is the idea of Poland putting them in U.S. custody and then then they get to Ukraine. If Poland just gave them directly to Ukraine, the U.S. says they'd have no problem with this. It's a very confusing whatever is going on there. Yeah. But two new weapon systems that are now being talked about the Kamaai. One, the U.S. is sending Ukraine a hundred of these small, single-use drones. I believe it's called the Switchblade. Yeah. The names of it.

of these things, which is so fucking gross. But they're similar to javelin anti-tank missiles in that they can be used. They're really mobile, and you can use them to hit targets like tanks or, you know, armor or whatever it is from dozens of miles away. You guide them like a giant, deadly paper airplane with GPS and model airplane, I mean, and it blows them up. So that's one thing. Two, the U.S. is working to facilitate the transfer of what's called the S-300 missile defense

system to Ukraine. So there's lots of different iterations of the system, but the gist is a Soviet-era missile missile defense system, they can hit targets at a much greater range than Stinger missiles, which are the shoulder-fired ones we've been talking about. So we're talking about targeting a plane that's 100 kilometers away, 18 miles high, like that kind of range. So I remember first hearing about the S-300 system because Americans and Israelis were scared shitless that Russia was going to sell them to Iran. Yeah. Because it would have, you know, impacted our ability to bomb their nuclear program, basically. Some versions of this weapon system can actually also take.

take out ballistic missiles and provide missile defense. So I guess Ukraine has some S-300 systems. Already, the military there knows how to use them. Bulgaria, Greece, Slovakia have systems they might be able to give to Ukraine. Slovakia, I think, said they would. So to your point, if you're not going to do a full no-fly zone, his bargaining chip is send me this incredibly high-end missile defense system. And I think you could sort of do a partial no-fly zone, at least, with this thing. Yeah, I mean, I think that the, you know, the discussion around these things get kind of really binary. It's like, we're either doing the no flaws in it or we're not serious or something. Right. We just step back for a second. Like, the scale of what we're giving

to the Ukrainians now, any tank weapons, any aircraft weapons, sophisticated air defense weapons. Thousands more of all of them. Drones. These are going to and are already destroying massive amounts of Russian military equipment, killing Russian soldiers. like we're in, you know, and so people who, you know, act like Biden's not doing it. Like, this is, this is of a scale and lethality that, you know, I don't think anybody could have imagined a few weeks ago. And again, I think it's because of Zelensky's appeal, because of popular sentiment, because of the success of the Ukrainian military to date and the idea that actually they might be able to hold these people back. And, you know, Putin's going to take this as, you know,

and he already has, we're going to get to his speech, but like, you know, he's not going to distinguish that much between what, you know, used to be like, well, do we give them weapons and can be used against the Russians or do we just train them or just give them equipment that is defensive in nature? Like, this is like just like sliding the chips on the table. Yeah. And it feels like this is going to be ongoing given Congress's appetite to provide this type of assistance.

Really glad you had that interview with Derek Chalet because it was, you know, you know, useful to understand, you know, we have a lot of this stuff pre-positioned in Europe as Derek walked you through in a really helpful way. So that's how it's getting there so fast. And, you know, the one thing I watched, we talked about this a bit last time, but like, how do the Russians start to try to really stop the influx of these weapons? Do they start to try to hit border points where these things are crossing in? The reality, though, is that this isn't a huge border between Ukraine and NATO countries. So, you know, there's clearly going to be some opportunity to get, get these systems in. But yeah, this is, this is really escalating.

It's a lot of, a lot of weapons. Speaking of escalating, Ben, did you see that today, Speaker Pelosi read a poem for Ukraine that Bono had sent to her? I'm curious if you think that that will have more or less impact on Putin than Tulsi Gabbard's demand that he stopped the war in the spirit of law. We love Speaker Pelosi. We're just making a little joke. And we like you too as well, who I, I, you know, I, yeah. They're not listening. You know what to fucking defend you too. I don't know what to say about this.

I will say to just like, to cover the ground, the one thing that's getting a lot of attention that actually is quite good is the Schwarzenegger video. You know, I, you said that, then I saw it was nine minutes. What does he say? He like, so first of all, like the, the reality is he's huge in Russia, right? because his movies were like massive in Russia. Like he was the guy coming up. And he, what's powerful about it is he, the entire thing is directly to Russians. And he talks about his affinity for Russians and his hero was a Russian bodybuilder, etc.

But then he talks about his father being in the Nazi army and being sent to Leningrad and being broken and getting there and realizing that he was fighting for lies, being physically broken because he was badly wounded. Is he part of like the siege? Yeah, and he's addressed Russian troops directly, and he's like, don't want to end up like my dad. You don't want to end up broken the rest of your life. And it was like this, you know, you didn't think that he could be that personal. Like, so I don't know, you know, I mean, I'll say between Bono and Tulsi Gabbard and Arnold, if you're going to watch one thing, even though the nine minutes, watch the short time. Okay. Also, just a quick aside to all my friends on Twitter and the resistance and everywhere else. please stop calling Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard traders and demanding that they'd be in prison. Just chill the fuck out.

You can criticize their speech with your speech, but let's not call for like Marshall Law for Tulsi Gabbard. Well, the other thing I'd say is that like Tucker Carlson is problematic in that he has a huge platform and creates this content that can be repurposed. Like Tulsi Gabbard is not an A-lister, you know. Yeah, she's just, you're actually raising her profile. thousand percent Tucker's profile is raised he gets a lot of money from Fox but Tulsi Gabbard like a former couple term Congress

right I don't like her politics either but like move on speaking of the escalating language I mean President Biden called Putin a pure thug and a murderous dictator Thursday that tracks on Wednesday he called Putin a war criminal which set off a flurry of nerds correcting him because that determination

has to be made by the international criminal court or United Nations or blah, blah, blah. Obviously, Putin is a war criminal, as goons are bombing, maternity hospitals and a theater with hundreds of civilians inside it that had children written in big text outside of them. The Kremlin whined that Biden's rhetoric was unacceptable and unforgivable. Fuck you. So then Putin gives this belligerent, authoritarian, like, frightening speech where he says things like, quote, the Russian people will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and will simply spit them out like an insect in their own.

mouth onto the pavement. Okay. He seemed to call out oligarchs who have voiced concern about the war and called them, quote, national traders who, I'm summarizing now, or more concerned about their villas in Miami or the French Riviera,

quote, who cannot make do without foie gras, oysters, or gender freedom. That had like a bit of a Steve Bannon vibe there. So, Ben, the Financial Times reported that Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a peace plan. I guess my question is like, okay, I guess. I mean, I don't question the reporting. It was in the financial times. But how do you have any confidence in that process or Russia's willingness to abide by it after these attacks and civilians in that speech? He looks like a lunatic. Yeah. And just unpack these different components because they're all important. The war criminal thing is important. I like that Biden just said this. Me too.

I was, I won't name, I was on, on television after a Biden official who was asked this war criminal question. And it reminded me of when I was in government because the person was clearly instructed that they couldn't say this yet. Yeah. Because so people know there's a process in racial criminal courts make determinations. But like he's committing war crimes. We can see with their own eyes. He's targeting civilians indiscriminately. And Zelensky gets that smart is Zelensky taped an appeal to Russian officials and said, hey, you resign or else you're going to be a war criminal.

And that is, it's not going to deter Putin. But, you know, the idea that the rest of your life, you're going to be on some list of war criminals, you know, that that's just one thing you want to put in the head. I'm not saying it's every reason I quit on mass in the Russian military. But, I mean, you do want to plant those seeds. Putin's speech was like really terrifying. And, you know, sometimes we like get numbed to this rhetoric from people like him. but the key takeaway to me is this is incredibly dehumanizing rhetoric

you know, scum, insects, like this is the kind of stuff. Gaddafi, like. Yeah, and I don't do it lightly, but this is like Hitler-Stalin Gaddafi kind of stuff where it's like rats, insects, you know, and that's generally been a pretext to like, and he was talking about Russians, by the way.

It's, you know, what he might, yeah, fifth column. Yeah, fifth column, what he might do inside of Russia to these people who protesting, you know, the terror he might inflict, not just on Ukrainians, obviously first and foremost, but also on Russians. It's some chilling shit. Yeah, man.

This is a, the fascism is not behind any veil anymore. Right. A reminder to all of us that, you know, it's a little harder on the Russians when we're demanding that they stand up and push back. This is what they're, you know, this is what they're risking, right? And to your point, that's not a guy who's like, looks very serious about peace talk.

No. No. I mean, the notable thing in the Financial Times report to me continues to be that, okay, if the positions that are kind of leaking out or being reported out are true, the Russians have shifted from denatification demilitarization, essentially like decapitating the Ukrainian government to like, you know, NATO neutrality and recognizing Crimea. No foreign military bases. But like, so that would be a significant shift. But Putin does not look like he is actually doing that. I mean, and Tony Blinken said today, like, we don't believe these peace talks are particularly credible because of the actions Russians are taking what Putin's saying. And so, you know, it does make you think that, like, the worst case scenario of this dragging out still feels like the most likely one.

But, like, we're dealing with the – it's not that he's crazy. This is that irrational debate is, I think, the wrong debate. Like, he is who he is, and he's a fascist. Now, I think he's also full shit. If anybody wants to go watch Putin's palace, Navalny's video, yeah, Putin doesn't go to the French Riviera, but he has, like, the most expensive residence in the world. A billion dollars. I'm sure stocked with foie gras. I think I had, like, strippers' poles.

It did. This guy is living a higher life than any of these oligarchs. So, like, let's put aside, you know, Putin trying to sound like some, you know, Navalny's. all me like anti-Oligarch guy. Give me a break. Really? You took half their money. He's reportedly worth like $100 billion. At least. Okay, so I need to get mad for a minute about Republicans in press coverage of the war. So I saw today Mitch McConnell is teeing off on Biden. He's calling them slow. It's like it's embarrassing to watch him compared to Zelensky. Do you get Republicans like Rick Scott, Senator Rick Scott, Brian Fitzpatrick, who's a congressman from Pennsylvania.

They're calling for a limited no-fly zone. All the Republicans are calling for, more sanctions and then they attack Biden for high gas prices, right? Like, that's the entry-level cynicism that they're all doing. Yeah. It's driving me crazy in the coverage is two parts. So the Republicans are just weaponizing these bad faith attacks, right? Rick Scott says, we need a no-fly zone, but no one asks him, okay, write a bill, vote to authorize it. Like, would you vote to authorize it? Yes or no. Second, as Glenn Greenwald, someone I, you know, disagree with on a lot of things, but on this, I think he's right, has pointed out, a number leftists have pointed this out. Every question that Joe Biden and Jen Saki get, every question

is about escalation. Why aren't you sending nigs? What about a no-fly zone? It is constant escalatory pressure with no discussion about whether Congress would authorize these steps, whether more lives could be saved through a diplomatic effort. And it's like, it's giving me PTSD because Ryan Grimm, who writes for the intercept when in there, yeah, asked about negotiations. Like some people were dinging Jen for not having more of an answer. Guess what? The negotiations would probably be secret right now. Yeah. But it was like so notable that only he had been asking.

But it just, it feels like the same dynamic then of Iraq, Syria, red line. Every question is some version of like, are you going to do more? Are you going to be free? You're going to be a wimp. Yeah. I think, yeah, this is a lot that's frustrating about this. I mean, I think that first of all, you know, the, and we have to do this, as much as I hate to revisit it. Um, the leader of their party called Putin a genius on the eve of the invasion.

Like two weeks ago. Like we don't have to go down the Trump rabbit hole in them. But like their credibility, you know, as, you know, tried and true anti-authoritarian anti-Pudin types is, is permanently compromised by the reality of the last five years we've lived through. That's the first point. I think the second point is that like these are like really serious fucking time. You know, like, we've just talked about how Russia, the largest nuclear power in the world, is governed by a fascist who refers to human beings as Nats and is indiscriminately bombing children in Ukraine. And the Biden people are very trying to walk this, you know, tightrope of doing everything

they possibly can't help Ukrainians defend themselves without unconsciously doing. something that could tripwire us into a direct war between the U.S. and Russia, that, yes, the worst version of that war is the use of nuclear weapons. But even though, like, even if they're not nuclear weapons, it's likely that even a conventional war between the U.S. and Russia is bigger than Ukraine. By the way, it causes many more Ukrainians to die, you know. I mean, just remember, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops are staged in Europe. Yeah. Right? So you could have cruise missile strikes into Russia, into Poland, into Germany.

Like this, you could kill tens of thousands of U.S. troops. Yeah. And look, the counter argument, and you hear this in my interview, you know, the Ukrainians are like, we're willing to pay the cost. We're willing to fight these guys. And the counter argument is that like Putin's army has been proven to be something of a paper tiger. And so, you know, if you come with the full force of NATO. Sure, maybe. But maybe, but maybe a Putin who's existentially threatened. Because essentially, if, you know, the U.S. is at war with him, and already I think he's existentially threatened, he just decides to go, I mean, the history of these fascist strong men, right, is they burn it all down on the way down.

Right. And so the Baltics, all these other, Moldova, Bosnia, all these places, the Slavic world, he just decides to have the reckoning. And he clearly doesn't care if people die. So to take it back, this is, like Rick Scott, like, has no. no idea what the fuck he's talking about. None. When it comes to like, how do you navigate this perilous path of doing everything you can

to help the Ukrainians prevail without unintentionally getting into a much, much wider war that's much, much more destructive, you know? And the way in which kind of political journalists sometimes view this the same way they would view like the build back better negotiations or, you know, some, you know, the Iran deal. Or even more directly, a no-fly zone in Syria or a no-fly zone in Iraq in the early 90s. Those were big steps. But like those guys couldn't hit us with a cruise missile with a nuclear weapon on it. And by the way, there are smart analysts who think that NATO or the U.S. entering the war could actually throw a lifeline to Putin.

Because all of a sudden you can rally his country around fighting the Americans or fighting evil NATO in the way you can't when you're talking about killing your brothers and sisters in Ukraine who five minutes ago you said were. you're going to reunify and rescue from Nazis. Now, I don't know if that's right, but like, Jesus Christ, in the briefing room, you act like, were one, you know, no-fly zone or Biden decision away from ending the conflict. Yeah, and I mean, I guess, like, it's interesting, like back in the Obama years when this would always happen, right? And Syria was such a cynical one because they wouldn't vote for the authorization for these military force, but they would spend the next several years calling Obama a week. I would, you know, when John McCain would criticize us like this, it was like, okay, like, you know, I don't agree with John McCain on foreign policy, but like John McCain has thought about these things for a long time.

Rick Scott and Mitch McConnell have not. No. Like, and they are, they've proven themselves to be bottomless cynics and hypocrites. And to afford them the kind of standing of like, you know, experts on this when all they're doing is trying to, to. harvest political gain out of it is grotesque. And it's, by the way, the same thing we talked about last time. Like, I don't think the Biden people should, and I don't think they are, frankly, overly politicizes either. No. Like Joe Biden's such a great leader. No, they're not. They're just doing their jobs. And they're doing them as hard as they can. And they're doing a pretty good job

at holding the world together and imposing these massive consequences on Russia. And so this is a dangerous dynamic to watch because, yeah, you just, you don't want to trivialize the stakes of what we're talking about. Yeah, and pretty sure Mitch McConnell specifically called for a no-fly zone and then wouldn't vote for it completely during Syria. Yeah. Yeah. So like, yes, just maximum cynicism, horrible human being, cannot stand him. You're seeing all these Ukrainian military reports that they're killing generals in the Russian army. They killed three generals, which is wild. apparently Russian generals get sent to the front to fight a lot. I saw that the Treasury Department put more sanctions on Bella Russian officials, including Lukashenko and his wife. I imagine there's

sanctions to death anyway, but whatever. The Russian sanctioned Biden and Blinken and Hillary Clinton for some reason, much others. You know, and Ukraine, you know, we've been talking a lot about the absence of cyber attacks. I did see one stat that the Ukrainian government said they faced 3,000 distributed denial of service attacks since February 15th. Those are basically when you just try to overwhelming network with web traffic until it crashes. So that's a grab bag for you. I just, I think that, I mean, first of all, I was in the first list of sanctioned Americans, which is weird. It changed your life.

Not at all. Like, my ruble investments are quite low. And, you know, the travel ban, you know, I might have gone to visit Russia. I don't know. But look, I think the thing to watch, is the Russian, what you said about the Russian military, like, first of all, we should note that the Ukrainian casualties are probably horrifying. I mean, the numbers are not giving any, you know, just Mariupil, like, we have no idea how many people have died, and it's likely many, many thousands, right? On the other hand, the Russian casualty numbers are astonishingly high. Like, the estimates, you know, you've seen an estimate seven, eight thousand. Those could be low for

we know. And that's, it's been noted that that's more than America lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's more than Russia's lost. And I mean, you know, since Afghanistan, I think, you know, I mean, it's just, I'd have to check how much they lost in Chechnya, but like, this is not something you can conceal from the Russian people. And it's going to take time for that to sink in among Russians because there may be like some delay in the reporting of these casualties, but they can't hide that scale of casualties. And so one thing to watch is just the sustainability of the Russian military operation, not just from a public opinion standpoint, but just from like an attrition standpoint here, you know?

Yeah. And Putin has said he didn't want to call up reserves and do conscripts, additional conscripts, but, you know, he's suffering so many losses. That's a barometer to watch. Does Putin have to go beyond the invasion force that he marshal to just sustain this? Yeah, yeah. Okay, before we close at the news section, we want to play you

another clip. This is from Alexandra Bertritskova. She's a 21-year-old civil activist and international law student. She is currently on her way to Strausburg to represent Ukraine as a youth delegate at the Council of Europe Congress. This is her talking about her optimism for Ukraine

after the war. I think, I really hope that Ukraine will stand for itself and that Ukraine will rebuild itself and all of the people that are now being refugees or asylum seekers, they will be more than happy to come back to their, not to say their homes because most of them have no homes, but I don't even know what is going on with my house right now. Even though we have no home, we have a home lens, right?

So we will manage, I'm sure. Amazing optimism and another reminder of how badly Vladimir Putin underestimated the sense of civic identity. Yeah, civic nationalism, and patriotism. And the young generation that, again, came of age after the Soviet Union. These people, they know who they are, you know. She does make a good point, which is, you know, we tragically, we can't. think about this yet, but there will need to be a massive rebuilding effort. And I hope that the whenever that time comes, and hopefully it's sooner rather than later, that the desire to pump

billions of dollars of weapons into Ukraine is matched by the desire to rebuild Ukraine because they can't do it themselves. We got to match the money going into the Raytheon account. One for one here, yes. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, you will hear Ben's interview with the youngest member of parliament in Ukraine. So stick around for that. We are very pleased to be joined by Vyatoslov Yorash, who's the youngest member of the Ukrainian parliament, the Rada. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. So let's just start with where are you and what's the situation around you right now?

I mean, Kiev, Kiev right now is a city that has cleared out Russian incursions that we had. And battle is happening on the outskirts. basically we're planning a trip tomorrow to the outskirts to one of the embattled cities, which took already too much. Yeah. Well, I'll come back to that. I wanted to start, you know, you, I think, very powerfully, a lot of people saw your tweet about your very close friend, Alexandra Kushnova, who died on Monday, the journalist,

who was working with an American, with Fox News, an American outfit, obviously. Could you just tell us a little bit about her? I think it's important for people to learn the stories of the names of people that we see who are getting killed by Russia in this war. What's her story? What would you want the rest of the world to know about her? Alexandra died telling the world of the crimes committed by Putin in Ukraine every single day. She was full of life. She was full of dreams, full of ambition.

She wanted more. She organized many things, musical festivals that she has done. She helped with film production in Ukraine. She helped with the Chernobyl HBO miniseries that you know. She worked with many different organizations through her life. And she always showed herself time and time again to be driven, committed, organized, and as somebody who has greater dreams and ambitions. She is far more than a friend.

In the 10 years that we knew each other, we went through many things and many stages and used many titles, but the reality is she was the dearest person for me. And she was always the person that I can turn to in any situation and ask. But again, Russians killed her as they will kill so many, every single day in my country. The drama situation is that I'm thousands of Alexandros they will die today in Ukraine and thousands more that will die tomorrow.

And I'm very sad that even though we have many things sent to us and support that is given and sanctions, the West is unwilling to use all its instruments and all its might to try and stop this madness happening inside of Europe. And there's murderous streak that Mr. Putin is on my country. We obviously want to get to what would be most important for Ukrainians right now.

One more question I wanted to ask, which is that, you know, looking at your pretty extraordinary career, and you mentioned a decade. I think we all remember the Maidan and the Revolution of Dignity in 2013, which feels like a very long time ago. But obviously, people like you and Alexandra have lived this last decade from that moment to where we are now, try to describe to people what that generation is and what it's done, you know, because when I saw, when I see the depth of your feeling for Alexander obviously as a friend, but also I'm thinking about the events that have taken place in Ukraine,

some very, very hopeful events and obviously some very, very tragic events. How do you explain, you know, that generation that may dawn generation to people? The reality, it's a free generation. It's a free generation. have been born after the Soviet Union of people like myself who only know independent Ukraine and only imagine men in Ukraine in which they can function, they can dream, they can realize whatever ambitions, goals they have. Ukraine, there's plenty of problems as an independent state that is honest with itself.

And we step by step year by year, reform or reform have been trying to solve these problems. And the reality we were going on that path that leads to Western democracy, which shall give all these citizens' instruments to battle against whatever ills disturb their circumstance or that ambition. But again, it all changed because of the fact that Russia decided to destroy our statehood and destroy my nation. Mr. Putin doesn't regard our nation as in existence, doesn't regard my state as worth existing, and the point is that our generation is the living proof that he's wrong.

That's why so many of my generation have died in the war that went on since 2014 and will die in this war every single day. And the point is our generation will do everything possible to prove Putin wrong and to show to him that our nation is not just in reality, but so many are willing to stand up for that reality and even die for that reality because they don't want any other reality or any ambitions that he has for my nation.

And you mentioned your role right now, I mean, you're obviously a parliamentarian, but everybody is basically in some way part of the resistance to this Russian invasion. You mentioned going out and wanting to be with people to support people who are more on the front lines. What are your plans for how you're going to help in the days ahead? How do you think about your role in the effort there? Well, on the first day of the fighting, every member of parliament who wanted to, could receive their weapon and try and join various parts of the battle.

I did both. and basically even though I'm a rudimentary soldier is best, the point is everybody is a soldier now, especially in Kiev, that is the Russians trying to siege. And my soldierly skills notwithstanding, the point is that those people that I work with in military matters, they know that as a member of parliament and the ability to get plenty of things that they need to conduct the war more effectively.

So my point is to try and provide both military and humanitarian, necessities to enhance both our chances to win this fight and enhance the ability of population to survive this fight so that's why i was sharing so much about the humanitarian missions that i try and conduct to weddiscences and battle cities in the key region and it's it's in the trips such as this you know it basically near the near one of the towns that i was in it's where Alexandra, who's again, I insist on this, she was far more than a friend. The word friend doesn't describe the depth of our relationship through the decade. And the point is that's basically in one of the circumstances.

It's a drama for me because when you look at the circumstance of her death, I could have been there. I could have been there because I've been plenty of those checkpoints. I've seen plenty of shelling. I've been to the minefields that are now unfortunately around Kiev. So the point here is that that's just the drama that can affect any of us at any time. With Russian cruise missiles that are firing on Kiev, constantly you never know what's going to fly into the window

in the next minute. And so I think everybody has seen, you know, the extraordinary resistance, including the extraordinary military success that Ukraine has had in at least repelling in slow. Russian advances and taking out significant Russian troops and equipment. Obviously, we've had, you know, from President Zelensky on down,

calls to have a no-fly zone to close the sky over Ukraine. You had an announcement yesterday from President Biden, a pretty big package of weapons, including surface air weapons and anti-tank weapons. There's other issues like intelligence about where Russian forces are that the U.S. could provide. What you mentioned earlier that the West could be doing more, what specifically is most helpful that's being done and what more would you like to see done? So, I mean, the fact for me is, I listened to foreign affairs debates in Western circles my entire life. And those Western debates about options on the table right now for what to do in Ukraine are plentiful. And

they first and foremost focus in the fact that Russian point about the Third World War and I think of all consequences is a bluff. The reality is Russian economy size of Italy. Russia doesn't have the capabilities to overwhelm Ukraine, much less the Western states, especially America. So the point here right now is when you talk about no flies or at least those nigs which are never-ending debate in the Western world right now, that's the least from the options the West has in its toolbox. Again, if the West decides

to do more here in Ukraine, Putin can try and reconsider because, again, he understands the odds he's facing, if he faces the might of the Western alliances. Because this is something he cannot compete with in any way. So the point here, it's

either lose all or push on. And the point here is, if, from the beginning, if the idea of Western military present wasn't taken off the table, they would give him pause to think about possible moves by the West to try and preempt or push him away from this ambition.

But it's very clear right now the sanctions are not enough. And as far as again, the need in Ukraine, it's the need for everything because what we are doing right now is we are having a fight of our lives against the Russian forces. And we need that support in every way to try and sustain this battle moving forward. And that needs all those people that already are coming to Ukraine from various countries on the world to partake in the fighting. But again, Western Alliance can at any point try to move in and try to show to Russians that they cannot do as they please in destroying my nation,

destroying our citizens, causing the largest war in Europe since the Second World War, and attempting to destroy the larger state in Europe. Yeah. So I think it's important note for our audience to hear, which includes people in a lot of those foreign policy debates in the sense that you clearly do follow these debates. If the concern basically is among people who are cautious about this, including President Biden,

that direct military confrontation with Russia could risk nuclear escalation. I think it's worth noting that you're essentially saying, because Ukraine would be the place where that would be most likely to happen, right, the use of a tactical nuclear weapon. What you're saying is you don't believe that Putin would do that. And frankly, you're in some ways willing to take that risk, right? I mean, that's kind of what I hear you say. He is grinding our nation right now. He is killing at least 20,000 people are dead in Mariupo from the words of their deputy mayor, 80, 90 percent.

of the buildings in the city right now have been hit by one kind or another kind of artillery or other means the Russians have a disposal. We have attacks on all the sides. It's the point here to stop this madness and the border called Putin's bluff and to show him that again the Westmore stand by and watch as Russia destroys and kills in this in scrupulous fashion. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a good point. And I know that the intent is to try to support as much as possible while weighing this question of escalation, right? But I wanted to ask you, what's so impressive to people, I think, is this, you know, Ukraine is

on the front lines of the democratic world right now and is giving an expression to a kind of civic nationalism that is truly extraordinary. I mean, our societies have trouble coming together to do anything. And it feels like you mentioned at the beginning kind of being a part of this generation that was born in freedom and independence, or in independence, at least, and really claimed freedom post-Madon. What is the sense of the coming together there? Because it, you know, politically obviously like anywhere else, there are factions, but it just feels like this extraordinary expression of civic nationalism, of Ukrainian identity. How would you, how do you explain that to people? and how do you, what would you want to say to people around the world about what they should know about Ukrainians today?

What choice do we have? We have, again, we love our country and that love is challenged right now by somebody who wants to destroy that which we love. And that was the initial motivation that essentially immediately made all the recruiting stations and barracks around my country full, all those army units full of new people who want to join this battle, who went to fight against the Russians, and who did everything possible to show to the world that we are not taking this lying down. Those people who went out on the streets in the occupied cities

with nothing but Ukrainian flags to show that this is something they will not accept. That was the initial wave of all this. But now when everyone of us has a person they've lost, have a person, they don't know what happened to them, or have people who have been driven by this conflict away from their families and friends. It's the desire for justice as well. It's the fact that we cannot let this crime go unpunished. That's where, for example, when I looked to Alexandra, my dear Alexandra,

who was killed mercilessly, my Russian artillery, I immediately tried to get the information about the forces on the other side and army units. that are stationed there to in one way or the other, and the future is big to bring them all to justice for what they have done. But again, it's just one person. And there are so many of these people who have perished already this conflict. We are receiving, our Facebook right now is full of people mourning they're dead, talking about people they've lost.

And because of that, our nation feels one thing, defiance. We cannot let us go unpunished. We cannot move away from this reality they've caused on us. And we must do everything to make that sacrifice, to make the sacrifice worth it. So the point for us is that we need to fight on to make all that which we lost matter. Well, with that attitude, there's no way that Putin can win the war because he can't, you know, he can't subject an entire country that has that attitude. The one last question I would ask you is, then, what do you say to Russians?

I mean, obviously Putin is Putin, but if you could speak to the Russian people, what is your message to them? I tried, actually. I actually spent a good chunk of today debating with other people from my hometown of LeViv in Western Ukraine, which you hear so much about in the news because it's one of the central refugee hubs, to which many Ukrainians are fleeing or through which many Ukrainians are fleeing to Europe. I spoke with Russian opposition, actually. They had a marathon before social media shut down in Russia. And actually, I spoke to them a day before the invasion. And my message was very simple. It's about the fact that Mr. Putin is an aberration.

It doesn't have to be the rule. And they have the power in them to make this horror stop at any point, not just for us, but for them as well. And again, in any future that is there, we need to find something that remains after all this loss and death. And believe me, it's extremely hard and painful even to speak about this because so much was lost already. And when we think about our ancestors who survive much worse and given to us this independent state, we understand that we haven't even started yet in this battle for our existence. point here is that as far as Russians are concerned, they have in their hands defy the odds to show

to history that they matter as well, not just dictates like Mr. Putin, or they can fall together with him. So show that, show that in every way you can to make that manman realize that he is not in control of this nation, which can have a different path. Yeah, no, it's an extraordinary history of the Ukraine and way back when my family started there. I, I, I, well, they, they, they, they, they, they started around Odessa and then, you know, in the pogroms, they moved to Poland and then to the United, the Jewish shot of my family, ended up moving into Poland and then ultimately to the U.S. But I, I have to say, I just want to tell you what, what you've accomplished in, and, you know, is

extraordinary. I mean, I think people need to appreciate that the revolution of dignity and the assertion of a belief, you know, we in America like talk a lot about democratic values and we don't live up to them. And what you guys are doing is forcing people in democracies to see the gap between people who risk everything for those values that we talk about and the rest of the democratic world. And I think that's why you've stirred so much But more needs to be done, as you say. So I really have a lot of admiration for you and your generation, your cohort. I'm terribly sorry at the loss of Alexandra.

And I wish you the best in the days to come. Hopefully we can keep in touch. Thank you very much, Ben. It's a pleasure to speak with you. And thank you for caring about this story and telling the story to the world in America. Thanks again to Vyato's love, Yorash and Alexandra, Beritricoba. Anything else, Ben? Anything else got going on in your mind?

no I uh this is like uh I mean I I I think that there's a it's interesting that to kind of settle into this just being the the reality and then you know that we're going to be living in and um it you know when you hear the kind of people we heard from today it's just like it drives home for you like we we shouldn't take our eye off this you know No. Not that we would, but this is going to be a transformative event in world history. And the Ukrainian people are showing us what can emerge on the other end of it. They're not going anywhere. Putin is also showing us what could emerge on the other end of it. Yes, he is. And also, one last thing I noticed in some of the covers is a State Department cable that apparently mentioned that in Leviv in Western Ukraine, they found a stash of like stuff that Russian operatives have hid. some of it was only dress military uniforms, which they think were intended for a parade,

which was going to happen right after the victory. It was just this further evidence that like Putin thought they literally would have waltz in there. Yeah, there's one of the pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians who's really tight with Putin. I think Putin is like the godfather of his kids. This is one of the guys that they thought was going to be installed, could have been installed as the president of Ukraine. Nice, you know, nice wrong assessment, Putin. And they went and found at his kind of residence.

It recalled Victor Yanukovych, the pro-Russian president of Ukraine until 2013. You know, he had like that exotic zoo animal. Like golden toilet and stuff. So this guy, Medvichuk, had a railroad car, like a gold-plated railroad car restaurant. Like, you know, those old-fashioned, like super fancy dining cars? I hate these people so much. I mean, these people fucking suck. You know, I mean, that's like, like, how much money do you need?

How much money? How tacky? Like, how full of yourself to be to be like, oh, I want to entertain some people in like a 19th century railroad car restaurant. Get a hobby. Yeah. Give me a break. Well, on that note, that's it for us. Oh, one more thing, by the way.

Yeah. The U.S. is not sanctioned Roman Abramovich yet. Like, let's get going, guys. One more for the designation list. Let's dig into that next week and the weirdness out around. Israel's treatment of him as well. So look forward to that. Oh, and our friends in the UAE. It's where a lot of these oligarchs are washing up. Creeps. All right. Talk to you guys next week. Pazzi of the World is a crooked media production.

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