Pod Save the World - Russia escalates the war in Ukraine

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

Tommy and Ben walk through the latest news from Ukraine, including how Russia has conducted the military campaign so far and why many experts are concerned that the risk to civilians will increase, the impact of sanctions, the strong response from Europe, which countries have refused to condemn Russia and why, the private sector response and how sports leagues have shown solidarity for Ukraine. Then Tommy interviews a 29-year-old Ukrainian refugee named Kseniia Putiatina about her three-day journey from Ukraine to Istanbul and how she made the decision to flee.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. 

Welcome back to POTS day of the world on Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. Ben, good to see him in. Good to see you. Sorry to leave during like the busiest time possible. Yeah, I expected to miss some news. I did not expect to literally come back to a world that is changed forever. Yeah, well, I don't think you have to, you don't have to apologize to anybody.

I'll just say that. That'll be my core point. Core point. Don't worry about it. But it is like, man. does make you kind of think about how, we were talking about this on Potsdam, America, like things are just really fragile in the world everywhere.

Yeah, I mean, I think that they felt fragile for a while, right? And leaders really matter. Yeah, it's been a theme on this show for years now of how fragile things are, and something like this was going to happen, you know. This was always one of the flashpoints it was out there, right? And it was actually always the most active flashpoint. And so if there was going to be a conflagration around,

authoritarianism and aggression, you know, it was going to be here. Yeah. And I guess like there was an annexation of Kashmir and it just didn't lead to a war and we all should be pretty happy for that. Yeah. Yeah. That was another flashpoint. You know, people should remember there's some other ones out there and don't ever assume that they'll just work themselves out. Yeah. That's the thing you realize in government, like there's dogs that aren't barking and you're like very grateful for that. A huge part of working in government is preventing things from getting even worse. Yes. Yes. So today, obviously we are going to focus on Ukraine again. We're going to update everybody on the major event since the last

episode, including the military campaign, the sanctions, the strong response from Europe, the weak response from some other countries, how things can get worse, what the private sector and what sports leagues are doing to show global solidarity. And then you'll hear my interview with Katzanya Putia Tina. She's a 29-year-old from Odessa, Ukraine, who is now one of the more than 660,000 in-counting refugees who have been forced to flee the country. So definitely stick around for that because, you know, I think it's pretty hard to sit where we sit and imagine what it's like to have to make a call to, like, maybe leave your house forever. Yeah.

Yeah. I, you know, you don't know if you're ever going to be able to get back. Yeah. I mean, that's the... Literally. And talking to people in refugees, the most wrenching thing is that sense of, like, imagine walk out of your house, leaving all your stuff and maybe even some family or friends behind and never knowing if you'll be back there.

Literally never know if you'll see your house again. Never know if you'll see your friends. down the street, your cousin, your cat, your dog. I mean, it's just heart-wrenching stuff. And certainly never going to see your city look the same as it once did if you're from Kiev or Kar-Keeve or one of these places. Or a desk for that matter. Right. Okay, so we'll start with this just a quick round-up of major events. Ben, if you have anything to add, please do. And then I figured we would just sort of go through all of these sort of one-by-one and major buckets later. So the international community has responded significantly since Friday when

you guys talked with major sanctions that targeted Putin, himself, Russia's Central Bank, the U.S. Europe also moved to restrict Russia's access to the swift global financial system that allows banks to communicate. A bunch of European countries reversed course and stopped being reticent to sanction Russia and agreed not only to sanction them, but to provide Ukraine with arms. After initially deploying smaller groups of forces, the Russians are steadily moving larger and larger groups of troops into Ukraine. There's reports of a 40-mile, 40-mile convoy of Russian military vehicles headed towards

the capital. Belarus and Chechnya have deployed forces in support of Russia. That's very scary. Putin put his nuclear forces on high alert. I guess it goes without saying that that's pretty scary. Talks between the Russians and Ukrainians seemingly failed. Biden talked to Zelensky today for about a half an hour. And then, as I mentioned to the top, 660,000 Ukrainians, according to the UN, have fled the country in the last few days and become refugees. Sadly, between now and when we post this episode, that number will probably be up significantly. So again, we'll go through these all later. But any major events I miss that you,

you wanted to add or just like big things that stuck out of you um no i mean i think i think you you pretty much nailed it i mean this there's plenty to unpack within that i saw zolensky gave an interview after that call with biden oh really and i thought just briefly the noteworthy thing he said was essentially we're going to resist but we can't defeat russia by ourselves you know and so you know that that's been present in all of his messaging but i mean it was you know this is a guy very with reality. Yeah. Ben, I mean, just an aside before we get to the other stuff.

Zelensky has said that they are hunting him, the Russians. The Russians said basically they want regime change. How do you think he's like making phone calls, zooming into events, doing media hits safely? I mean, he's clearly assuming a degree of risk, you know, because you can take operational security steps and we've all seen him appearing in what appears to be, you know, basement somewhere. but you know there's only so much you can do when things shift to kind of more indiscriminate use of violence and air power and potential Russian special forces moving into the city so I do think you know and it feels almost wrong to even talk about it you know but I do think that one of the

principal things to bear in mind in the coming days is what happens to Zelonsky yeah I know I've been thinking about that a lot yeah So let's start with that, the military situation because I think there's a sobering conversation to be had, which is that a lot of military experts, I'm not one, but I've read a bunch, think that the Russians or tactical strategy over the first few days was quite flawed. The Russians basically raced a small number of military units to the capital. They seemingly wanted to scare the hell out of everybody, get them to lay down arms, maybe take out Zelensky, and basically get Ukraine to surrender before the war even started

and the West could respond. They've also seemingly taken steps to limit civilian casualties. They have not been bombing from the air as much as you might expect or using helicopters as much these expect, especially if you contrast what we've seen in Ukraine with the tactics Russia has used in Syria and Chechnya. Presumably, that's because if you wanted to capitate and install a puppet regime and control Ukraine that way, you want to sort of keep some support from the people. In both cases, it seems clear that Russia drastically underestimated the Ukrainian resistance.

But I think listeners should just know, like, the scary part comes next. Most of the Russian military has not been involved in the fighting. They will be soon. We saw overnight more bombing in cities. So, like, these little vignettes on social media about Ukrainian victories, they're inspiring and they're helping win the information war, but they're probably not representative. I mean, then what do you make of the fighting so far? And, like, are there things you're seeing that really worry you about what might come next?

Yeah. And, you know, I'm not a military expert. I do have experience, unfortunately, though, dealing with Putin's use of politics and the military together and his use of information. And I think it's fairly clear to deduce from the last five days that he was hoping for a best case scenario in which a relatively limited amount of military force, coupled with a lot of intimidation, could essentially use. deal the political outcome in which you saw a rapid collapse of the Ukrainian government or the

Ukrainian government leave the country in a way that created a vacuum. And his preferred option was clearly to install some pro-Russian puppet government, you know, populated by Ukrainian corrupt types who you have long ties to Russian security forces. There are guys like that around Kiv. And he also, I think, wanted to avoid the kind of indiscriminate. mass civilian casualties, in part because that could do a couple of things. It might forestall the most severe sanctions. And frankly, I think the Russian people, who he's trying to kind of keep this war from, I think he appreciates that, you know, there's no way to sugarcoat this.

They may feel differently about watching their military massacre, their fellow Slavs, and even ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in Ukraine than they did about Syria, which probably felt very distant from them. And clearly he failed on all accounts. Zolensky and the Ukrainian people showed a lot more resolve. The West, principally, but many other countries moved very quickly to the more severe sanctions, and he just was not going to be able to achieve his objectives with that play. And unfortunately, I think what that most likely means is he's going to pivot to more indiscriminate use of violence to achieve his ends. But even then, he's in a bit of a box, Tommy, because would you sign up to be the leader of the Russian puppet government in Keith? Oh, my God,

no. That person is not going to last in that job. That's a dangerous job. And so the idea that Russia could install a government and pull out, it seems impossible. The Ukrainians would overthrow that government. And so in addition to the more indiscriminate use of violence, I don't see how he accomplishes his objectives of essentially erasing Ukraine as a sovereign and independent state absent a really open-ended Russian military presence. Yeah, I mean, I saw one military expert suggest it could take like 800,000 Russian troops to really occupy Ukraine in the way you'd want to, given like sort of counterinsurgency strategy. You've got open borders to NATO countries. You've got sea borders where we can get

weapons in there. Like, holding onto Ukraine, if there's a real deal insurgency, is not going to be easy for Vladimir Putin. Yeah. I mean, I think nothing about, as you said, like you can overread the really inspiring stuff that some of us, I'm sure, have been consuming on social media about Ukrainian resistance. But you can also underread it. Because if you think about it this way, yes, Russia can overwhelm that resistance with violence, but that type of resistance suggests a people of 44 million people, even with refugee flows, you're still talking 40 million people who appear committed to resist over the long haul, in which case they'll never really have control over Ukraine as the United States has learned

in fighting insurgencies in places like Iraq and Afghanistan that, you know, you know, a smaller country. And the only caveat to that is, you know, for all America's flaws and failings, which we've talked about, we don't just deliberately, you know, due to a city what he did to say, Grosny, you know. And so that's the danger I see is just just violence, begetting violence. Yeah, flattening cities. I want to talk a little bit more about how things we get worse than we'll get to the sanctions. So some things that really worry me. we talked about the tactical mistakes, how they seem to avoid suffering casualties.

That all goes out the window, right? If you decide to lead siege on a city like Kiev or use, you know, a weapon like a thermobaric bomb or like, God forbid, a tactical nuclear weapon, although I don't, I react. I'm not, my defecone level is not. It's not a three, yeah, two or three. On top of that, these stories of restraint

about, you know, young Russian soldiers who are mostly conscripted, who don't really know where they are and don't want to kill Ukrainian civilians. I don't think we see that same kind of restraint from the Wagner group, which is a private militia force like Blackwater, the Russian version of Blackwater. I don't think you see that from Chechnine soldiers who are famous for their brutality and human rights abuses.

Belarus is sending in troops. I don't know what those guys are like. And then more importantly, Ben, like, what is the diplomatic off-ramp? You know, I mean, the U.S. is evacuating the embassy in Moscow, wisely, I believe. But, like, we're severing ties. There were these brief talks this week between the Ukrainian defense minister and some Russian officials. Nothing came of it. But, I mean, are you seeing anything or do you hope that there's happening behind the scenes,

some sort of diplomacy or some sort of creative thinking about, like, how do we let Putin save face here and climb down? Or do you think that option even exists? I don't see it. You know, I just could be honest. I wish I did. I hope I'm wrong. Oh, my God.

I hope I'm wrong. But the problem here is that, you know, this is what's so dangerous about war. When you start a war, already, you know, gaps between adversaries can widen and harden. And essentially, Zelensky's bottom line, which is clearly shared by the overwhelming majority of his people, is he can't agree to something that surrenders Ukrainian sovereignty. Now, that's not just NATO. That's like, is he going to have to accept the recognition of these fake republics in Dhenzsk and La Hansk? So you can have to accept, you know, the annexation of Crimea.

So you can have to accept some Russian military presence in his country. These are not things that I can see Zelensky agreeing to or any Ukrainian leader agreeing to beyond one that the Russians essentially try to install. And can Putin accept an outcome? that is short of essentially controlling Ukraine. Yeah. You know, can he accept, you know, some plet of NATO neutrality alone as what he accomplished? He, nothing about him suggests that that's his mindset. And so, you know, you hope that those talks can yield, you know, ceasefire for time and a window to just talk more.

but as Zelensky himself has pointed out, Russia has been escalating its bombing during the talks. You know, in the past, Russia has agreed to ceasefires and just completely ignored them. Syria comes to mind. And so there's not a ton of optimism. And you're right, these forces, you know, among the hierarchy there's because this is something to watch, right? The Russian conscript 18-year-old kid who's not sure why is there, that's a real problem for them, right? That is something. to watch. The Belarus military, like, is not a particularly good military, and those guys probably have no idea why the hell they're there, right? On the other hand, yeah, the Wagner group has been fighting in places like Libya and places like Syria and eastern Ukraine. They are ruthless. They are mercenaries. The Chechens, you know, Ramzan Khadirov, who's the Chechen leader,

who we make, you know, unfortunately, you know, have to learn more about, just brutal tip of the spear for Putin's repression in Chechnya. A lot of rumors that he's been involved in things like, you know, the assassination of the father of one of our recent guests, Janemsova. So there's this going to be this kind of weird hybrid of different types of violence in Ukraine. And unfortunately, you know, you can see Putin wanting to lean more on the more, you know, brutal of those actors. Yeah, I think that's right.

So there's been this flurry of sanctions. So the U.S. sanctioned Putin himself, the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, a bunch of cronies and oligarchs around Putin. The U.S. and Europe moved to cut off some Russian banks from accessing Swift, which is that messaging service that lets banks communicate. And sanctions are targeting Russia's central bank, which had $640 billion with a B in foreign exchange reserves as of February 18th. But the key thing to know is that that money, those reserves, they weren't like sitting in a vault in Moscow.

Mostly they were held electronically in Western banks. And now Putin can't access that money. In response, we saw the Russian central bank move to double interest rates to 20 percent to try to avoid inflation and runs on banks. So these are like major economic steps that happened incredibly quickly. And, you know, last week, Ben, I caught a bit of Biden's press conference where he said it could take months for sanctions to really bite. but it seems like between those comments he made on like Wednesday or Thursday of last week, and now Western countries decided to push a whole lot more chips into the table than I ever would have expected them to do.

And I do think like the honest way to describe this is economic warfare. I mean, we are trying to destroy the Russian economy, essentially, or in effect, that's what we're doing. And the Russian stock market cratered, Russia's currency, lost a big chunk of value. It's like, I don't know how this plays out. But again, like, Putin could interpret this in a lot of different ways. What do you think the most impactful move in terms of sanctions has been? Are there more steps, you think, that can be taken to escalate?

So there's no question that the central bank is the most impactful thing. You know, people have been listening over the last few weeks may have heard me reference repeatedly Putin's rainy day fund of over $600 billion. I was talking about the central bank. Yeah. And I think in part, you know, there was a belief that that would be a very difficult sanction for Western governments to move to right away, but they did for reasons we can talk about it a bit with Europe.

So this is uncharted territory. Like to give you a sense of it, the only time that this has really been done, the combination of a swift sanction and a central bank sanction is Iran, you know, after 2010, the entire economy of Iran was less than that $620 billion. It was in like the $500 billion. Like, this has never been tried before. And so I don't think we fully know and appreciate what the ramifications of this are going to be for the Russian economy, for the global economy.

It's just a different scale. And there's no question. It's going to make it harder for Russia to access money, never mind the isolation, which we can talk about in a bit. And it's going to impact ordinary Russians as prices rise and goods become scarce. In terms of where this could go, I think this is a really important thing for people. people to think about. The one thing that hasn't been done yet are energy sanctions, sanctions on the Russian export of oil and gas. If you've seen reporting about how there's

some exceptions in the SWIFT system cutoff, what those exceptions are, too, is the capacity to facilitate payments for Russian energy. So the Europeans are still buying a big chunk of gas, for instance, from Russia on a regular basis. And they're creating. exceptions to be able to facilitate those payments. Those sanctions would hurt us by far the most. And there's even an argument to make that Russia could just try to seek other buyers for their oil and gas. That's not as straightforward as it sounds either because oil is easy to move around because it's in barrels, but like gas depends on transport systems, pipelines, etc. However, the scenarios you and I've talked about already on this program, like God forbid, anything happens to Slunsky or the flattening of cities. We've already seen public opinion move the needle very quickly on what leaders are prepared to do.

It's hard to see how this doesn't lead to energy sanctions or at least pressure for those energy sanctions, which would, that would kind of fully cement the kind of cut. off between the Russian economy and at least the kind of Western economy and really send the Russian economy into, you know, a really substantial tumultuous period. Yeah, and frankly, probably the economies of a lot of countries around Russia. I mean, if you're a lower class, middle class person in Poland, you need to pay to heat your house. You know, it's cold as hell. You need some Russian gas to do it, and it's going to be difficult.

I mean, I just can't imagine being an average Russian this morning waking up and trying to use, like, Apple Pay at the Mexico. And you just can't. Or go to the ATM, you can't take money out. No money out. Yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah, the one sort of caveat to that, the reserves is there's like 100, 120 billion

of that money in gold. Yeah. So I guess you could sell that, but there was some article about like, okay, so you want to sell all the gold, you load up an entire train full of gold. You take it all the way across Siberia to China to sell it to them at some discount because she is going to screw you on the deal. She's been paying not she, a woman. And so, like, that's not an easy solution either.

It's not. I mean, you're going to see all kinds of creative things. You know, God knows crypto is going to enter into this. But, you know, Max Settin was on the last show, and he made this interesting point about China that their backfilling of the sanctions is going to do some interesting things to the power dynamic because just take export controls. Like, we're denying all these inputs, semiconductors, high-tech stuff for their economy. That means they're just going to turn to the Chinese to completely backfill all that stuff.

and suddenly Russia could be wired with Huawei. And, you know, so the Chinese can backfill some of this. They can't cushion the whole blow. But the reality, if China starts buying discounted oil and starts supplying all the tech, China's going to, you know, gain enormous foothold in Russia. Yeah. By the way, a reason why Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be challenging for the world, challenging for everybody, because, boy, if they took out all the semiconductor infrastructure,

We would all go from online, supercomputing planet to the dark ages again. Good luck with that computer in your car. Yeah, good luck with that Tesla. So, you know, like we were talking about, the European response has been amazing, shockingly tough. Finland might move to join NATO. They were famously sort of playing this middle ground and seen as like keeping close to both sides.

Germany went from only supplying Ukraine with helmets and non-lethal gear to announcing that they will send thousands of anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. to Ukraine on top of that, Germany announced that they're basically doubling their defense spending. Yeah. So obviously, like, the perceived threat to Europe from Russia has changed drastically in the last few weeks. And, you know, on some level, sure, that's good. On another level, like a more militarized Germany in Europe is historically bad.

So, you know, it's a little worrisome. Zelensky is pushing Ukraine to join the European Union. That's not going to happen anytime soon, I don't think. So, again, like Europe has done a lot here. There have been some countries that have not joined in the condemnation of Russia. The Chinese have only offered equivocal statements. India abstained from a United Nations vote to condemn the invasion. I imagine that's because they buy Russian arms.

They have relations with Russia, but also, you know, again, they just annexed Kashmir. So slightly awkward for them. Brazil didn't condemn Russia because Bolsonaro is a little wannabe Putin showed. Israel's been quiet, which could be partly because they knew. need Russia to let them do stuff in Syria, but also some think that they are trying to preserve some sort of flexibility to mediate between the two sides. I don't know. Any big takeaways from you or surprises from Europe? And then on the counterpoint, like, do you think Putin's stitching together this sort of like coalition of the shitty is meaningful to him or can help him evade

sanctions? I think that the, look, I think this Europe point is really worth people reacting to this is an enormous shift in European Union identity and European identity to get people sense for it. When we were trying to post sanctions on Russia after the annexation of Crimea, it was like pins and needles to drag the Europeans to, you know, sanctions on some oligarchs and banks sectors of Russian economy. And now Europe, you know, was the one, you know, that kind of sped past the U.S. I'm sure with the U.S. you know, urgent. too, though, but to do these more severe sanctions. And it feels like, you know, the conversation for the last decade as the world descended in the direction of this nationalist authoritarianism

and the U.S. talk about has been about why doesn't Europe care more about its identity around democratic values? Why doesn't it, you know, do more on behalf of a kind of values and principles-based foreign policy? Why is collective action among the Europeans so difficult and painstaking? And it's like that all changed overnight. And to me, there's a hopeful thing in this. It's that that European identity around democracy, and to use a word that has gone out of style, freedom, you know, has been awoken, you know, that kind of dormant vein underneath the European political life has clearly been awoken by not just leaders, but by the public. I mean, the hundreds of thousands of people in the streets in Europe and, you know,

these leaders are responding to that sense of European solidarity. And I think Europeans look at Kiev and they think more so than Americans, that could be my capital city. Right. You know? And the steps that are being taken are dramatic. I mean, Germany, not just canceling Nord Stream 2 pipeline, but doubling and spend spending and allowing for, as one of the biggest arms exporters in Europe, allowing for all manner of arms to be transferred to the Ukrainians.

Yeah. So this is a good point because the Germans. sell arms, the Dutch, previously they wouldn't let them export them to Ukrainians. Now they can. Yeah. I mean, the Brits, you know, who had been cautious about going after the kleptocrats in London and, you know, David Lamby, our friend was really beating Boris Johnson over the head. Well, then they got there, right? And you can go on down the line. Even the European Union stuff, it may be hard for Ukraine to formally become an EU member, but I think they are signaling like, you know, and as European Parliament did. No, no, this, we see you as a member of the European Union

essentially, even if it obviously is hard to implement in the current context. And so I think it's positive that finally, like, and I think there's a lot of, there was a lot of pent-up frustration with Putin, with corruption, with the kind of far right, you know, it felt like all of a sudden, I think Zelensky did this. I think when a guy stands up to a bully and Zelensky has a lot more to lose than any of those European leaders and the Ukrainians in the streets have a lot more to lose in people in European cities. and when they don't look afraid,

I think it shook them out of complacency. Now, did you see that he apparently dialed into some EU call? Yeah. I think it was like a video conference. It was a European Parliament session. And, like, gave five minutes speech. It left them in tears and was like, this might be the last time you see me.

Yeah, and the interpreter was crying while delivering the speech. It's one of those dramatic speeches that I've ever seen. And Zelensky, this is one of those narratives that is true, I think. I think he has, he's the first leader in memory to really stand up to one of these bullies. and throw a punch back. And the fact that he's smaller in every way, shape, or form only enhances it. You know, and the fact that he, you know, in that video where he's like, I'm here, you know, the head of the presidential administration is here.

We are here. And it looks like he's out among the people. He's not at some EU session. You know, he's not behind a podium. Or giant table. Yeah. Or at a giant table. Like, it's like everyone around the world saw that.

I was like, well, this guy's not afraid. What are we afraid of these fucking oligarchs for? What are you afraid? Now, you're right to caution. there's also something else that might have been tapped in the European psyche, which is this kind of dormant, martial, you know, militaristic vibe, right? And wars in Europe, you know, um, historically bad. Yeah, historically bad. I mean, I, you know, there's been, well, yeah, let's just leave it at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, this is amazing. Like, Ukraine said that they're going to get 70 fighter jets

from the EU. Most of them are mig 29s and, and other Russian-made jets. And like, look, I'll be honest, consider me a little skeptical that you can kind of just like hand off a fighter jet and like really integrate it in the worst effective way like I think maybe it would be make more sense to give them like tons of this yeah and Poland is kind of backtracked a little on okay but I mean the symbolism of a mig fighter jet attacking Russian forces as wild also I don't know if you saw this but um look I sort of you know look a cynical interpretation of why Israel won't condemn the Russians is well-founded but Bibi Netanyahu went to the Knesset. And he said, now is not the time for Israel to talk about the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

And then he went on to accuse the current Israeli government of Talib Bennett and Gary Lepid of surrendering to the Biden administration on Iran. So, like, every time you think this guy has found a bottom, it gets worse. No, look, Israel has been totally absent. And Netanyahu's gone, but he helped reorient this kind of cozy relationship with Putin. You know, we've talked about the fact that, you know, Black Cube is, that spied on me has been helpful to Putin and this spyware that they sell to this kind of autocratic club.

Amazing New York Times report on this over the weekend. Yeah, includes a lot of the countries that you mentioned. They're sitting this one out. I mean, I look at, and I think what we're seeing is the revitalization of an idea of a quote unquote free world that is doing certain things. Then you have these countries that are kind of on the margins of that are hedging because they are so deeply invested in global autocracy or kleptocracy. So in that category, I put like the UAE. Yep. I saw Mohamed bin Zayed, Washington's favorite despot, did a phone call at Putin today.

And the Russians kind of read out how much MBZ welcomed, you know, Russian steps to protected security. Well, the UAE is neck deep in kleptocracy. You know, you think where is some of that Russian oligarch wealth? Take a look at Abu Dhabi and Dubai, for instance, right? Never mind the kind of belief that democracy itself is threatening. That's something that's been ingrained in the way the UAE looks at the world. India buys a lot of deep defense relationship with Russia, increasing tolerance for, you know, undemocratic behaviors at home and abroad. Bolsonaro in the Global League of Creeps, you know.

And Israel, a very complicated one because they've kind of developed this relationship with Russia that they they have not yet wanted to place their relationship with the U.S. and democracies above that relationship. They've clearly wanted to kind of duck this thing. And when they have spoken out, it's been Lepid, who's like the more Western-facing member of that coalition, whereas Bennett is the guy who's more, you know, in the autocratic facing side of that coalition. So I think what we've seen as far as kind of a sorting of the world back into kind of almost

Cold War camps, Japan, very forceful on behalf of sanctions, for instance. Amazing. And diplomatic support from countries, not just like South Korea, but even Singapore, which isn't a democracy, but has generally kind of aligned with democracies and is probably worried about China. Taiwan, very vocal in its support of Ukraine. And it's a bunch of, I think, medical support. Sent a bunch of stuff, like Taiwan very much spoken. So it's very interesting to watch, you know, you've got the Russian camp, which is basically, you know, Russia and, you know, Belarus and the vassal states. But then, like, China, then you've got the Democratic camp.

And then you've got these kind of like people like the EU. just keeping their head down. Right. Yeah. And Russia's got some sort of randoms in like Central America or Africa that they give a lot of money to that I think abstained as well. Or that the Wagner group helps out. Yeah. Right. Right. Or might topple. Also an interesting response from the business community. So we had Google and Facebook banning Russian state media from selling ads. Telegram threatened to shut down channels that were spreading disinformation. Twitter is now labeling posts affiliated with Russian state media. On the more sort of like media, you know, Disney isn't going to show films in Russia. Sony suspended some premieres of films in Russia, and then on the oil and gas front, BP announced

it would sell its nearly 20% stake in Rosneft, which is a state-controlled, Russian state-controlled oil company. Shell said it would exit its joint venture with Gazprom, the massive Russian natural gas company. Hopefully others like Exxon will follow suit. I don't think these companies necessarily deserve a profile and courage, especially the energy companies. And I don't know how much this is just the risk of sanctions kind of forcing their hands. But it does, again, speak to this problem for Putin insofar as if he was trying to hide this war from the Russian people, that is now impossible. The question, Ben, to you to me, it's like, okay, if you're getting really hurt economically, if you can't travel abroad, if you can't watch Frozen Seven with your kid, how do we make sure

they blame Putin and not the West? That's the hard one, right? I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, like, as someone who doesn't usually like, you know, sanctions, you know, fought really hard to try to lift the Cuba embargo. And this is different. I mean, like, this is, they're in the middle of, like, a war. And I think that it ties voicing about Europe. Like, we've, you know, highlighted in the past, you know, companies that constantly put profit over values, you know, it's below my line, you know, on the Uigher genocide, etc. That's my favorite bill. And there's something kind of both refreshing and worrying and seeing this scale of action.

What's refreshing is that whether it's sanctions or whether it's responding to kind of global public opinion, there is a sense of like we are companies that are rooted in democracies and therefore we have no choice but to kind of go with the democratic world on this thing. Marisk's not delivering, you know, the shipping container company, you know, not delivering goods to Russia. But what it's going to precipitate is this kind of sorting out, right? I mean, Google, YouTube, long term, I think, are not going to be back in Russia. And we should have said this about sanctions really. Like, once you go down this road, when do you resume operations, right? If Russia is not going to accept anything less than the subjugation of Ukraine,

we've got to think these sanctions are kind of quasi-permanent and that these companies pulling out is kind of quasi-permanent. And so then, again, as I was saying with China, like, what's going to replace Google and YouTube and all these things is probably going to be like, Chinese tech, you know, Chinese social media, like, you know, maybe Chinese pop culture will suddenly take off in Russia. I don't know. And I do think that the Russian people who are ultimately principal audiences, because one

of the things we haven't said out loud is it like, you know, we seem like we're going to be in some state of conflict with Russia so long as Putin is the leader there. Yes. There's a regime change element to this. Yeah. It's not overt. It's not kill him. But let's be honest, like what Alexei Navalny is doing, right?

He's releasing videos saying things like in a few. years, today's children will ask their parents, mommy, daddy, what were you doing when Putin started the war? You didn't support it. Did you please tell them you didn't? Like, that's the opportunity that we will see if the Russian people try to seize. Yeah. And look, people should keep in mind, like, I don't want to like suggest any of this is likely, right? But there's like popular opinion and whether that rises up in Russia. There's the oligarchs that frankly, like, we should be going after for a lot of good reasons. But like, I don't know that Putin is. is going to listen to or be ousted by oligarchs.

There's like Russian generals, though. Right, there's dudes with guns. And the question is, does this getting so risky? Like, I don't think it's likely in the near term, but like things in Russian history have sometimes changed very fast, you know? Now, there's the other side of that coin, though, like you said, where Putin will try to stoke all that popular anger and direct it against the West. One thing makes me uncomfortable, for instance, Tommy, is these videos of like Russians who are

captured that are being publicized and put on social media. I see what the strategy is, it's like show the Russians the cost of this war and what's really happening. But I, you know, that can cut both ways to Russians like seeing that, you know. And we don't know. It's early stages here. I think that the imperative, though, is to get as much information in Russia as possible, because the more Russians are forced to look at Russian casualties, the destruction of Ukraine and a country of fellow Slavs, the harder it is for Putin to do that redirection. So a lot of thoughts can have to be given

about how do you force information into Russia. Some of this could be because Russians have family members in Ukraine and they're just going to hear about what's happening. Some of this is going to be on platforms like Telegram, right, where there's huge Russian... Right. Look, they can all go to nytime.com. You know, it's not China.

It's not like totally firewall. It's just a question of whether it gets there. Who knows? Or whether those things start to go away, whether Russia starts to look more like China. Now, it's hard. It took China. a long time to build what's called the Great Firewall that just keeps information out.

Russia doesn't have that right now. So they're counting more on like intimidation. Don't, you know, don't go there, don't talk about it, don't share stuff on social media, then real, like a real kind of dome of, you know. Remember Rex Tillerson's heroic work getting Exxon into Russia? It looks a little differently now. It was weirdly held up as like a credential. It was like a big thing.

We got a metal from Putin, like great, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, those videos are weird to me because you're like, is this under duress? I have no idea. The sort of Russian captives calling their moms or whatever. Then the other sort of videos

that I really don't want to see any more of is like videos of Turkish drones blowing up Russian troops because again, those are fucking human beings and they're probably 20-year-old kids who think they're in a training mission in Belarus and don't know what's going on. You know, and like all of this is awful

and it's not a game. Yeah, I understand. what the Ukrainians are doing. I get what they're doing. They want to... Like the resistance Twitter in America. Let's all just like, come on. That's the gap, right?

So the Ukrainians are trying to like tell each other, we can stand up to these guys. Look what our heroic military is doing. We actually can like mount to fight here. So you should fight, which is a normal impulse in a war. The reality is this is a European war because, to be clear, there have been wars in Iraq and Syria and Yemen in social media age and other places. But let's face it. this is a European war, which we've never seen on social media before.

And so this is all new terrain. And you're right. It's one thing for the Ukrainians to want to buck each other up. It's another thing for, like, you know, Twitter warriors to be. And some of these videos are unverified. I mean, I just caution people. You've seen this. Like, you don't know what, if it's coming from, and we tried to identify in the show,

like people, like Christopher Miller, like, I trust what's on that guy's feed, you know, like, but like, you know. Brooklyn resistance dad tweeting Maverick and Goose taken out of a mig like it's probably not really nice You said it better like

But like the place you're seeing Like really cool Amazing global solidarity is Well one in these protests You mentioned earlier Which are just like you know Kind of bring tears of your eyes But then sports

Yeah And some examples of sports Showing solidarity for Ukraine And pushing back on Russia So FIFA blocked Russia From the World Cup That's a huge deal The International Ice Hockey

Federation says Russian and Bella Russian teams are banned from competition. And Russia can't be part of the Euro hockey tour, whenever the fuck that is. The NHL, the National Hockey League, suspended deals with Russia. UEFA, which is another soccer federation like FIFA, moved the Champions League final from Russia to France, and they ended a 50 million, $5 million sponsorship deal with Gazprom. So that's like putting real money in your mouth is. The International Olympic Committee, those soulless corrupt ghouls.

Yeah. recommended barring Russian and Bella Russian athletes from events. Tennis is complicated. There's too many organizations, but they're doing some good stuff there. And then a Russian oligarch named Roman Abramovich, who owns Chelsea, a soccer club in the Premier League that's badass. Nicknamed Putin's wallet. Putin's wallet.

Yep. Handed his control of the club to a foundation. Seemingly, he's trying to shield these assets in any way he can before they get sanctions. And so we'll see what happens there. But again, some of the stuff like you've, said, like probably should have happened a while ago for different reasons. Totally justified, fully support it. But all of these things are just going to make life kind of suck more for your average Russian. I like these, though. I like them too. Yeah. I like them too. And I think people,

and first of all, let's be clear, FIFA and the IOC above all have been the worst actors when comes to Putin. These guys are so fucking corrupt. But like the reality is Putin, you know, pay attention what he cares about, he hosted the Olympics and the World Cup. Now, he got that through total corruption, you know, like just bags of cash to the IOC and to FIFA. But that's, it matters to him. Like, it's, you know, this kind of stature of Russia and, like, international sports has always been very important to Putin personally. So to me, I think this is about Putin personally, like that that your capacity to use, you know, these corrupt sporting bodies to elevate your own stature and to make the Russian people feel like, you know, you're less isolated than you are. Like, this is something that Russians are going to notice, you know, and these are not bodies, by the way, that pick on Russia.

You know, it's not, this is the U.S. This is, you know, these are bodies that have tolerated Russian corruption. Often include Russians, yeah. And by the way, we should just quick detour on, you know, Abramvitz. Like the, first of all, these oligarchs use these teams to wash money. It's all sports washing. Same with the Saudi. Same with the, you know.

So they overpay for clubs like Chelsea with like because they basically want to take assets and wash them into legitimate assets like soccer clubs. And that shit has to stop. And this is the point about sanctions enforcement. You know, you don't just flip a switch in the oligarchs. all lose their money. These guys have money in other people's names and other assets. Rose is saying to love it before the show. It's like, yeah, it doesn't say like Roman Abramovich, comma, oligarch on these taxes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's an account with a bunch of

like U.S. stocks. It's real estate. It's like hidden money. It's like a shit that's hard to get at. It's like soccer clubs too. And so these task forces that you hear about the U.S. and you Houston, these these task forces has some work to do to get the oligarch money. Do you see the dude, some like technician on an oligarch? Mark's boat, try to sink the thing? That was, I was there for that guy. I was, that was a, that was a hard, like, RT for me, you know. I think we all learned about it from the Occupy Democrats, RT, if you agree, RT, if you support

the mechanic tweet. It's just so funny. Did also, do you see the anonymous, the sort of cyber group, to launch these attacks on Russia? Like, I don't know if that matters, but, like, pretty cool. I think we are in this kind of space that we haven't really, this came, this happened a bit in Syria, but, like, the, people just looking for a way to be involved, you know,

like whether it's anonymous going after a Western networks, whether it's, you know, people trying to sink oligarch yachts. I saw GoFundMe for weapons for the Ukrainian military. The Ukrainians. The Ukrainians. The Ukrainian military set up.

So I think we're in like a new, I think that's going to be, you hit hazard decision and be interesting because I don't want to make it sound like it's fun. But like it is going to be interesting to see how this kind of impulse that is clearly just pent up in people to do something,

which again, I think is above all about the people of Ukraine. I think it's just, it really is also about like just let's fucking take a swing at these people. Like they, they, because it's, we feel the encroachment of this, Putin is at the vanguard of so much that's wrong in the world. Like, and this is where the what about isn't has to fade away a little bit, you know. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be self-critical. We should. But this guy is like trying to drag us into like a, like a hell, you know, of cesspool of correct. and autocracy and violence.

And this impulse that people have to do shit is going to continue to play out. I hope, by the way, it doesn't play out, for instance, in discrimination or attacks against Russians and other countries. That would be awful. I'm all for going after the oligarchs and their money and sinking their yachts. But like, you know, the Russian people need to be separated from Putin and how we think about this. Absolutely. You know, I agree with you.

What aboutism is often useless. I, of course, do note the day. different way that supporting the Ukrainian resistance is being treated as opposed to, let's say, I tried to send material support to Palestinians or to Syrian resistance, right? It's like there's race, it's a fair point. It's a very fair point. It's an important point, but it also doesn't diminish what Putin is doing. Right, right. And certainly it's the case that, you know, a bunch of white Ukrainian refugees are being treated very warmly. But I also would say we would argue that early on in the Syrian refugee crisis, the Afghan refugee crisis, people were incredibly welcoming in places

like Greece and other places. And obviously that sentiment changed over time and I'm not getting into why. But, you know, yeah, what I hope is that I think the point you're making is like solidarity is good for the time being. And the only, I kind of walked up to making this point before, but like that one of the, there's no question that racial and ethnic, implicit racial attitudes are informing to some extent this reaction. I think the other thing, it is also the case that Europe, if Ukraine is say like going to be in the EU, like there's there's a sense of a collective political identity. But I think the other point is that wars in Europe have become world wars, you know. And so I think some of the unease that is not about race, and this

goes beyond the refugee question, is like the entire international system was built to prevent wars in Europe. Right. This is memory. Like that's what the UN is about. That's what the EU is about. that's what NATO is about. And the fact that there's now a major war in Europe, the likes that we haven't seen since World War II, because the Balkans is kind of a different type of situation. The part of that that's not about race and ethnicity is the part that's about like European wars can drag in the entire world.

Yeah, and go for a long time. Last thing, and we talked about this a little bit on Potson America Monday, it's sort of media narrative we're seeing in the U.S. There's a lot of calls for escalation. I worry about what this could look like in a week or two. There's some loose talk about no-fly zones. Luckily, I think today, as opposed to the Syrian context, you do have people at Vox and other places coming out and being like,

this is what a no-fly zone would be. This is why it's actually a declaration of war. Like, let's be smart about this. But, you know, I heard someone on a Sunday show and meet the press say, we need another Charlie Wilson's war, which is a reference to the U.S. arming the Mahoudian in Afghanistan. Yeah, it didn't end very well.

Hillary Quinn made the same case. You had the Richard Engel tweet that, you know, suggested that like either the U.S. and NATO blows up a Russian convoy or, or, quote, staying silent. How are you feeling so far about like the conversation around this and the possible risk of it creating incentives to do more, to be more militants to send, like, just to increase our involvement? So the no-fly zone is the most, you know, over-the-top one because, you know, as you know, I'm to spend a lot of time on it. I mean, that would involve America bombing Russian forces because you can't set up a no-fly zone.

without destroying air defense systems and surface air missiles and things like that. It's not just flying planes in the air. No. So that's war with a nuclear armed country and that's not like good. I think that in general, part of what's going to be difficult is they're going to run out an option. I mentioned energy sanctions is like the last sanction. The calls to do something are going to be sustained even when the options of things to do are going to be somewhat exhausted, which is when you start getting calls for, you know, offensive cyber attacks on

Russia or what have you. And I do think we just need. And Biden, I think, has been good about, you know, defining what we won't do as well as talking about what we will do. But I think you could see cynical Republican politicians or even some Democrats, you know, taking the easy route. I've been in government myself of, like, demanding that you do things that they don't want to have to take responsibility for themselves. but it's a talking point for them and it kind of creates a just kind of warps the discourse a little bit. I think the army question is a is a tricky one because like it's not actually totally analogous, at least at this point, to say Afghanistan or Syria, and that there is a sovereign government with a military.

Right. In an army, yeah. Asking for more stuff for their military, that is qualitatively different from like a, a, burgeoning insurgency asking for arms. Now, what happens if that military and that government no longer exists? And we're not there right now. I mean, but it's also going to get harder to provide even now, like you wonder, how are these weapons getting to them? You know, so that's coming down the pike too, potentially. But, you know, for now, I think we are supporting a sovereign military requesting assistance to defend their territory.

And that should be seen as distinct from, you know, arming an insurgency, but we may get to that point. And if and when we get to that point, what you're going to have to weigh is, am I prolonging and adding to human suffering? Am I adding variables? Who are the people? Like, who is it a government? Is it or is it just people in the streets?

I mean, we don't know what this is going to look like yet. So before we start promising to do that or start ruling that out, I think we just have to see what is the what here. Yeah, I agree with that. Okay, we are going to take a quick break. And when we come back, you'll hear my interview with a young woman from Ukraine, 29-year-old woman who just recently made the three-day journey from Odessa, which is a town near Crimea, actually, all the way to Istanbul.

Turquine is now one of the many refugees. So stick around for that. I am really grateful to talk with Kassanya-Putia Tina today. She's a 29-year-old from Odessa, Ukraine, who is now in Istanbul, obviously, because Vladimir Putin has decided to launch this psychotic invasion into Ukraine. So Kassaniya, thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you. So as I mentioned to the top, you're from Odessa.

You're in Istanbul now. Can you tell us how you got there and how you decided to leave? So me, along with thousands of Ukrainians at some point realized that it's wise to seek safety abroad. So there are several like points on the border of Ukraine where you can leave the country. So I'm from Odessa. So the nearest border is the border with Moldova. So it took us a number of hours to get over there. So me specifically I spent nine hours in the traffic jam leading to the border. Some of my friends spent up to 30 hours on the border. Wow. Yeah. 30 hours.

Yeah. It's crazy over there for days, people trying to, you know, leave the country. So massive traffic jams. So do you just sit in your car for 30 hours? Is there infrastructure? It's cold out, I imagine. Yeah. So my friends gave me a lift.

So, yeah, we spend those hours in the car. So there is infrastructure when you reach the border. So there is like a net where the proper. provide, hot food, drinks, clothes, like even toys for children. All this stuff is coming from Moldoan volunteers. So people like bringing tons and tons of stuff to the border. Like when we go there, like every five minutes, there is a van arriving with like boxes filled up with everything that people might need.

But before you reach the border, there is nothing. There is, you know, just the road and you just wait and hope for the best. So, yeah, at some point, like, there is this thing that at the moment, Ukrainian men between the ages of 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave the country because they're expected to join the armed forces. So the thing was that I was traveling with my friend and her partner, and at some point we realized that he will not be able to make it. through and my friend, she didn't want to leave her partner.

That's where we decided that I'm going to leave the car and just continue on foot towards the board. And then they would turn and go back home because there was no hope for the guy to, you know, make it, make it through the border. So yeah, after nine hours, I left the car and I walked there. And basically then I met some of my friends. on the border and we crossed it on foot, obviously it took us about five hours. It was freezing outside.

Everything was moving slowly. But yeah, like I said, there was like an incredible support from Moldovan volunteers and Moldovan government who tried their best to keep us, you know, warm and nourished and everything like that. And once we crossed the border, we were met by Moldovan volunteers who were ready to provide free accommodation, free rides anywhere in Moldova. Even if you need to go to Romania, they were ready to take you there. They offered shelter.

They offered steam cards, internet, charges, like, whatever you need. Even like legal counseling or, yeah, so that was like an incredible experience of so many people genuinely trying their best, even everything they can just to, you know, support us and you as some relief. God, there's something completely overwhelming about stories of people being that kind to total strangers, you know, it's just sort of like it moves you. So like, I mean, this choice that you just had to make, which, look, I hope I pray that you'll, you'll get to go back soon. Yeah. But that, you know, you're making this choice, whether you stay in a war zone or you leave your home, maybe forever. Like, it's unimaginable to, to me, to a lot of people. Like, how do you, how do you begin to

decide? For me, it wasn't much of like a decision process. So obviously we were getting that disturbing information for months, that something was cooking up on the border. Some Putin was making certain moves, military moves. So some people took that threat seriously like me and we were like planning escape plans. Some people took a couple. lightheartedly, they never believed something like that could happen. But yeah, me and some of my friends were kind of discussing that and realizing that if things really get bad and if our army doesn't succeed, our city is going to turn like in a quasi-state, like something that's happening to the Donbos area where they're going to be.

is the minimum infrastructure, no opportunities for, you know, the proper job development. But also, most importantly, you would be expected to follow a certain ideology, right? Right, right. And personally, for me, it wasn't for, I wasn't worried for my life or safety in terms of physical safety. I just knew that if things go bad, I wouldn't be able to exist under that government and exist in that political reality because it doesn't agree with me because many people would actually prefer to, you know, just surrender peacefully and, you know, to have their lives intact and just do whatever.

but for me the change of the system would be something that I wouldn't tolerate. So yeah if you understand what I mean, yeah so it wasn't like immediate danger that scared me

physical danger, no, it was the idea that I might need to you know live in a completely different political reality. Yeah, that the long-term prospect of a sort of quasi-Russian and propped up government. I mean, yeah.

So, I mean, you mentioned that you took the threat very seriously. You made these plans. Others didn't. Like, I would never criticize anyone for not wanting to internalize this horrible situation that you're now in. But I do wonder if, you know, President Zelensky has been so brave and so inspiring and so out on the front lines. But they're also, you know, he was one of the people, I think, who was saying, oh, this

isn't going to happen pushing back. And I imagine part of that was rhetorical posturing. But I wonder if there are some folks who, you know, frustrated than think, I wish the government had made maybe more evacuation plans for women and children earlier. Is that part of the discussion? They couldn't do it. You know, they need to, well, panic is the worst in current circumstances. So at this point, I'm convinced that they were preparing internally. So they were enforcing the armed forces, you know, they were making sure they're like you know they're making they're taking everything like in order um but yeah they couldn't

just tell this to the population it's 14 people you can't just appear on tv and tell 40 million people that yeah you're expected to get bombed in a in in a week right so i'm starting to understand where he couldn't make it public but i'm i'm convinced that he and he is team did everything they could to prepare themselves for what's coming. And we see, like, it's not like my only, you know, like, it's not like, I want to believe in it. I see it. No one expected Ukrainian army to defend so effectively.

Like, the things that I saw online, like, you know, those Russian supporters there were like, well, yeah, like, Ukraine doesn't really have an army. Like, they will take Kiev in one day, right? So we see that everyone was surprised how our soldiers thought that there was like, it's a good fight, it's a decent fight. Yeah. So just based on that, I can tell that for sure they were preparing, even though they couldn't, you know, disclose that to the population, obviously. Yeah. Yeah.

It is staggering bravery from the Ukrainian armed forces. They have, it's, I mean, it's awe-inspiring what they've done. I mean, you know, Addessa is the Port City. It's off the Black Sea. It's relatively close to Crimea, which Putin invaded back in 2014. I imagine that incident, like, led to a lot of the preparations, which has made the Ukrainian response so effective now. But did that earlier, you know, illegal action by the Russians? Did that change your life in any way from 2014 to today?

Yes, a lot. So the thing is that the war didn't start on Thursday. The war has been ongoing for eight years. Yeah. We were lucky enough to not experience it firsthand just because, you know, there were some, yeah, there was some commotion in that. So for sure, there were Russian saboteers trying to, you know, you know, to cause accrued all through

local government, but back in 2014, it didn't happen. But of course, Odessa has been always like one of the primary interests for Putin just because well, it's a, the

majority of population is Russian speaking, right? Also because it's an important port, so strategically important place. But think like Russians and Putin's crew, they think of it as a traditionally Russian city. So everyone knew that. And back in 2014, we were sure we were next. We were sure it wouldn't stop with Crimea. It was obvious that Putin would want to integrate the entire, you know, southeast part of Ukraine because they're just convinced that that's historically Russian lands.

and we as Ukrainians, we don't exist as a nation. So, yeah, the fear has always been there. That's, yeah, he would not stop with Crimea. So 2014, it changed a lot. Yeah. We were never, you know, at peace since then. Yeah. I understand that, you know, some of your family,

a lot of your friends have decided to stay or were forced to stay because they were male. are you able to talk with them? Like, how are people doing? What are you hearing? So, yeah, I have, like, lots of reports from different parts of Ukraine. So obviously, most of my friends and family are in Odessa, which is relatively calm at the moment. But things can get ugly really, you know, really fast.

So, like, there is also no peace or relief in that term that Odette. So it's relatively peaceful. Like we, yeah, we expect the worst to come, you know. But yeah, I've been in touch with my friends. So they're like in different situations. Many of them have already, you know, cross the border and across Europe. Some of them stayed. We also had, we also have friends from Kiev who are reporting back from there.

So there's a lot of information, but the main thing that we are very supportive of each other. So we share the news, we express our frustration. We exchange memes, of course, because humor is extremely important part of, you know, getting through this. First, like first two or three days, no one could pull a joke. But then, you know, over the time we started, you know, like, thinking more clearly, so then that's where the humor comes in, you know, then we can laugh about it a little bit. You got to laugh.

So I start an extent, yeah. That's all you can do. Before this happened, before this fucking lunatic tyrant on your border invaded, like what was a normal day like? What did you guys do for fun? Well, I mean, what's the normal life? Like, Odessa is on the seaside. So of course, lots of our activities are connected to, you know, beach activities.

Nice. Walks, beach parties, like, I, like, for me, living close to a large body of water is essential. Like, it's part of my identity. So I couldn't imagine not being like, you know. So that's partially why I'm in Istanbul. There's boss for us, you know, so that's like helping me a lot. But yeah, I guess like our normal life wouldn't be any different. from like, you know, American or European life.

Yeah. Yeah. So just look, for what it's worth, I want you to know that I think probably everybody listening, myself included, is just like so inspired by the dignity and the courage of the Ukrainian people. It's overwhelming to watch. And it feels so small to say that and to feel that from here. But I just want you to know it.

And I just wondered if you had any message back to people listening that you. you want them to hear ways they can help, like something folks should know just to kind of close out the conversation. So I think if I would, the only thing I would want from people abroad, if they hear an opinion that this war is somewhat justified, right? So fight them.

Because like fight them verbally, you know, there is so many open sources where you can get the information. both from inside of Ukraine and outside. So don't just let it slide. People saying that, okay, but maybe the West Coast did, you know, it's all nature's fault or Ukraine is just, you know, in the middle between this massive fights between the empires like the U.S. and Russia. It's bullshit.

There is a will. of an insane man who decided to become the greatest you know emperor of the world he wants to you know

to be remembered as the greatest person in history he wants to be the Napoleon or whatever so that's his ill will that's causing everything and Ukrainians do appreciate all the support

however small is even if it's just a post online, even if it's some of our foreign friends, checking on us, you know, everything is important. It's important to be heard and seen. And that's what's been keeping us alive, basically. Yeah, yeah. I have a really good friend here in L.A. from Georgia, the country, not the state, who, you know, had the same reaction you did, which was like, of course he was going to do this. He's a monster. because he's wanted to do this.

It didn't seem to Georgia in 2008. Yeah. Yeah. And well, yeah, you know, maybe the only Napoleon comparisons that might come are to do with their shared height. But I think it's far more likely that Putin will be remembered as more resembling Hitler than than anybody else because he's acting like a madman and a sociopath. And I think the entire world is standing with Ukraine. We will all, I promise you, we will on this show everywhere else fight back against these. made-up narratives that, you know, he's saving Ukraine from Nazis or whatever.

But I do think from the outside perspective, zero people believe him. No one believes him. But the Russians actually do. And it's ridiculous because I'm the most liberal person and I'm very pro-Ukrainian. And there is no Nazis. Yeah. Seems like normal people who go to the beach. Yeah.

Not a lot of Nazis. So this whole narrative is just ridiculous. and like it's difficult to comprehend that millions and millions of people in Russia, but not only Russia, believe this narrative and are truly saying to Ukrainians, that's your own fault for open your door to NATO, to the West, to you. It's just, yeah, it's something that I will. never be able to truly comprehend, like, you know, that people, they want to seem smart. They think they're being smart.

They're throwing this like, yeah, it's jail politics. It's Cold War. Yeah. Ukraine is just in the still. But it all comes down to one person who decided, you know, to gather all the lands and introduce Soviet Union 2.0. That's it. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I totally agree. Last, I lied. Last, last question. I mean, there is this older generation that I think is sort of used to Russian aggression, has seen it before, and there are so many of them have decided to stay in fight. I mean, why do you think that is? What do you think that bravery comes from? So one interesting thing that even people who used to be quite pro-Russian and used to be skeptical, towards like Ukraine and, you know, all our aspirations.

Now they've changed their minds just because when you're being bombed, when there is troops entering your country and shutting civilians, it becomes very clear that who is the enemy, you know? So many people change their opinions a lot about that. and it's quite important. But yeah, it all comes down to, you know, defending your home, defending your family, defending your beliefs, defending the way of life.

So it's only natural that so many people are brave enough to pick up arms even though they've never, you know, held them in their entire lives. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's incredibly rave and incredibly inspiring. And Kessania, thank you so much for taking some time to talk with us today. I hope we can stay in touch. We'll be thinking about you.

I'm sure every day after this, so I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for your time, too. Thanks again to Kaskanya, Putia, Tina, for joining the show. Ben, thank you for the several books you gave me that I actually read two of them. I read Silverview. Yeah, Lecara. Behind the beautiful forever's.

Really one of the, I can't remember the last time I picked up a book, and when I put it down, I'd read 200 pages that day. Yeah. And in terms of like just sort of like giving one perspective on challenges you face in your own life versus global suffering and inequity and things others are going to. It's about it's this incredible author Catherine Boo, I believe, who basically, you know, chronicles the lives of these young, mostly women and kids in slums in near Mubai near airport for several years. Yeah. And it's just astounding. Yeah, and I might strike one as a strange book to have given you at a time of immense personal tragedy. But as sad as elements of the story are, because she's detailing just the most extreme inequality imaginable, there was something weirdly really affirming about that book, the resilience of those people and the way in ways in which they cared for each other, even as stuff was going on around them. I mean, that book's not every now and then you read a book that's not like any other book you've ever read. and that's how that book struck me. Yeah, yeah.

You know what else I read? Had some free time. I read a perfect spy. I met like my Kindle says 99%. I have one chapter left and I just like couldn't keep my eyes open last night. It is, you know how like a lot of La Carre books? They start with like 50 to 100 pages. Yeah, like what the hell is going on?

And then it ties it together and at the end it delivers the payoff. This one is like 200 pages. You're just being like, what the fuck is happening? Yeah. But ultimately you get to a very, incredible place it's a good time to go back to la carte i mean you know cold war moral ambiguity you know total moral ambiguity told cold war and also like as he went with the books you know the last one silver view um he's talking about gaza yeah and you know sort of like he doesn't shy from

tough things yeah i should say uh because people have been asking me on social media um last i've heard you know tanya cosdreva is is fine is okay the journalist we had on um Christopher Miller reporting from Kiev. So we'll keep in touch with these people that I know have both been incredible sources of information, but also like listeners, you know, are wondering, are they okay. Man, that was scary. Yeah, and her, I have to, like. Yeah.

Can't even imagine. Can't even imagine. Okay. Good to be back. Thanks again. And talk to you guys next week. See ya. Pod Save the World is a crooked media production.

The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producer is Haley Muse. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seiglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Yale Freed, and Phoebe Bradford, who film and share our episodes as videos each week.