Pod Save the World - Wanted by Putin and rage tweeting at Iran

Episode Date: July 25, 2018

Two part show today! First, Tommy talks with Ambassador Michael McFaul about Vladimir Putin's request to interrogate him and Trump's shocking refusal to immediately rule it out. Then Tommy talks with the Washington Post's Jason Rezaian about Trump's late-night rage tweet at Iran and the future of US/Iranian relations. 

Welcome back to Pod Save the World. This is the last episode before I head out of town to get married. So big week here for Pod Save the World franchise and Crooked Media. But I would not leave town without putting together a fantastic show for you guys. It's a two-parter. First, I checked in with Ambassador Mike McFal. You probably have all seen the way he was targeted by Vladimir Putin in the Helsinki Summit meetings. There's been a lot written about this outrearious.

proposal by Vladimir Putin to try to get access to U.S. officials and Trump's refusal to shut it down immediately. So we talked about that and what it's been like for Mike during this crazy week. And then I talked to a fantastic journalist from the Washington Post named Jason Rosian. He was the Washington Post Bureau Chief in Tehran for several years. He was actually taken captive by the regime. We got together because we wanted to talk about Donald Trump's tweet on Sunday night where he sent this all-caps rage tweet at President Rouhani of Iran attacking him. And the way that dovetails into this broader effort by the Trump White House to, you know, name shame and destabilize the Iranian leadership. It is a strange tactic that's happening right now.

And Jason has some really interesting insights that he gleaned from living in the country and being on the ground and understanding the people. We also talked about his personal experience in Iran, including an interview he did with Anthony Bourdain when he came to town to Tehran for parts unknown. So two fantastic interviews to send me off. to Wedding Bliss, and I hope you will enjoy. And here's Mike McFall. On the line with me is Ambassador Mike McFal. He is in a green room at the late show with Stephen Colbert, again talking about what I imagine was a very weird week for you. So thank you for making time for me and doing the show today. Great. To be with you as always, Tommy. Thanks for having me. So, Mike, I imagine you were probably watching the Putin Trump Summit in Helsinki on TV with the rest of us.

did you hear Putin float this suggestion that Mueller could interview witnesses in Russia if Russian officials were given access to you and Bill Browder and this weird cockamamie scheme to sort of pitch an idea that sounded like reciprocity. Did you catch that in real time? And what was your reaction? So I did. I actually was in Helsinki at the time. Oh, boy. Yeah, I was working for NBC News. I was on live with Lester Holtz and we were, you know, that experience, Maybe you don't know, Tommy, but you're like listening live. Actually, you do know because you have to do this all the time. Oppressor is happening, and you're having to give commentary right afterwards, right?

So I'm taking notes, and I'm the Russia guy, so I'm trying to explain things to my NBC colleagues about what is going on. And the big news, of course, which most people focused on, was about how our president wouldn't defend his own intelligence community, instead, you know, said Putin did a good job of saying he didn't do it because he was strong. So that, everybody was focused on that. But I did catch this cockamamie story. And I even tried to explain it to Lester Holton real time before we went live. And it was, I want to be clear, he didn't mention my name at the time. But what Putin said is, in return for allowing Mueller's guys to go over and witness Russian officials

interrogate their GRU military intelligence officers. He wanted his government to witness the interrogation of American intelligence officers who allegedly, in this crazy cockamamie scheme, had helped Bill Browder, this businessman, who used to do a lot of business in Russia, launder money. He actually said $400 million, allegedly, that Browder had taken out. and then he gave some of that to the Clinton campaign. And Putin even went out of his way to explain the treaty under which this could happen. And I'm sure nobody was paying attention about that.

It's called an M-LAT for your listeners. But I know that treaty, and I was thinking, this is crazy. So crazy. He is assigning a false equivalency between these Russian indicted criminals and the U.S. intelligence community. So fans of the show know that Bill Browder has been a guest before he was a hedge fund guy who made a whole ton of money in Russia and wrote a great book called Red Notice all about this experience. But he ultimately hired a lawyer named Sergei Magnitsky, who was a truth teller, a freedom fighter, an anti-corruption, you know, force for good

in Russia who was killed by the Putin regime, right? And Browder has made his life fighting for justice for Magnitsky and has worked hard to get sanctions on the Russian regime. Is that a decent summary? Yeah, that's a great summary, Tommy. Well done. But I want to make one footnote. He did not mention my name at that press. Okay, okay. It was only when I'm flying back from Helsinki, Helsinki to San Francisco, Finare, about five hours into the flight, thank God I had Wi-Fi. I started getting pinged by Russian journalists, and that's because then the spokesman for the general prosecutor's office went and gave more detail about this. this offer and in that description one he named me and 11 other Americans I think

and too he made it very clear that they considered us suspects in this conspiracy so it wasn't just to talk to us to get some information we were suspected criminals that they wanted to interview and that's when I learned that I was part of Helsinki Helsinki was a complete disaster for many many reasons I think it's probably will go down in history as the worst summit between a Russian and American leader ever in my academic world. That's already the ratings are giving. But I didn't realize that I personally was going to be part of this, you know, historic, in quotation marks, the summit in Helsinki. And you write about your treatment by Putin in your fantastic book, Cold War to Hot Peace. I mean, he viewed you as a, as a guy who was a

rabble rouser fighting for democracy and, you know, sort of an enemy of his. But did this feel like a a whole new level of attack from the Putin regime? Yes. And, you know, I wrote that whole book, Tommy, so that I could educate people about how this regime works because all those things you just said are true. I've been dealing with his disinformation about me when I was in the government for years

and to this day from his proxies. You know, sometimes I got really nasty accusing me of being a pedophile, for God's sakes. That's the lengths they went. But I have to say, I felt like that chapter especially writing this book and finishing it, had closed for me, right? I cannot travel to Russia. I'm on their sanctions list. That means I can't do research on Russia. And so I had just kind of, by the time my book was published a few weeks ago,

thought, okay, that chapter's closed. I'm actually spending a lot of time thinking about China these days if you want to know the truth. And so for him to do that and go after me explicitly naming me, threatening to charge me with a crime. And then once you're done with that, if you're charged in abstentia and found guilty in abstentia, then they can go to Interpol and use red notices, as Bill Browder's book is called, to harass me and to try to arrest me around the world. And I just thought, oh, my God, I thought I was done with all of this muck of the Putin regime. I've been away for four years now from the government, and here they are again. trying to intimidate me, you know, sitting in Palo Alto, California, they're not done with me.

And let's just be clear so your listeners understand. This is about politics. This is about silencing his critics. Bill Browder is at the top of the list, and he has been courageous in what he's done. But if you look at all those other, well, I don't know all those other names. I shouldn't speak for them all, but several of them are other critics of the Putin regime. But I'm obviously, you know, at the top of that list. nuts. So I've seen some analysts online say, in some ways this type of proposal is a bit is typical of Putin, right? I mean, you float a counteroffer that sounds like it may be fair or there's a reciprocity. Oh, yeah, you want to interview our guys? We'll interview yours.

But what is actually shocking about it is Trump's reaction that he thought it was interesting or was willing to consider it. Do you agree with that analysis? Yes. So first of all, it is a classic Putin tactic. It's called what aboutism. you know, so if these are your criminals that you think they're criminals, well, here's our list of criminals. Let's have our investigators, you know, come to America, come to Russia, and interrogate them. To be clear, he said that Russians would interview their GRU military intelligence officers, but Mueller's team could sit in. And let's just pause for a moment and just realize that in of itself is a stupid, empty offer. If Putin is going to stand before the world and lie standing right next to the president of the United States, Guess what? Eleven military intelligence officers from Russia are going to do exactly the same thing. So nothing in there. And when it happened in real time, yeah, this is cockamamie crazy. And remember, sometimes what aboutism is about real events, right? Making moral equivalent arguments about real things. So one of Putin's favorites is, well, we took Crimea, but you took Kosovo.

So isn't this the same? What about Kosovo? What's weirder about this one is that the American actions, the alleged American actions, are completely fabricated, right? Nothing to do with reality. And there, our president stood and said, that was a great idea. Now, I'm going to make a confession, Tommy. When he said it then, I thought he just didn't understand what was going on, right? He doesn't know what an M-Lat treaty is. He probably never heard of Bill Browder.

And maybe that underscores why it's not such a great idea to have, President Trump in the room with President Putin for two hours. I don't think this was the only thing that he was probably confused about when Putin was talking to him. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt, okay? All right, you screwed that one up. But two days later, back on, you know, back at the White House, this press spokesperson got up and was asked a question about it. And instead of saying, this is ridiculous offer under no conditions, are we going to let American government officials be interrogated with questions from Russia, the White House said, oh, we're looking into it, and the president's going to talk to his

team. And even on the third one, right? So you get two mulligans, I guess. It's the tough administration. Even the third time, at least thankfully, she said, we're not going to entertain that deal, but she called the offer a sincere offer from Putin. And I hope she just doesn't understand what she said, but anybody that thinks that this is a sincere offer from Putin doesn't understand Putin, doesn't understand the nature of this regime. One last thing, though, I do want to give the State Department credit. They made it a very strong statement, called it absurd, if I recall, and that was the right thing to do.

There was just one little caveat, Tommy. She said, the State Department spokesperson said, while I can't speak for the White House, this is our position. And I was thinking of you. I was thinking, imagine back when we were in the White House for somebody, one of your counterparts at one of the other agencies would go on the record to say, well, this is the position of the State Department or the Justice Department, but we'll let you go talk to Tommy Vitor to figure out what their policy is.

And I think that was also a statement about the nature of the Trump administration. I honestly can't even imagine it. Yeah. Well, so Trump clearly was poorly informed or malicious. Sarah Huckney-Stander is poorly informed. The good news is you have a lot of people who know you respect you and who have worked with you in Republican circles, Democratic circles, national security circles, to the point where by a vote of 98 to zero, the Senate approved a proposal to oppose sending U.S. officials to be

interrogated by Russians. So protecting you from extraordinary rendition is apparently one of the last remaining bipartisan issues in 2018. Does that feel good? Is that? Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't have to happen, right? And had the White House just said the obvious, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. but because they didn't, there was this, I mean, I got to be honest with you. I was shocked at the outpouring, you know, hashtag protect McFall and all kinds of people, Democrats and Republicans went on the record. And many more called me privately, Tommy, just to say, we have your back. And then, as you said, it's very rare you get a 98 to zero vote on anything in the U.S. Senate.

And so that did make me feel good. But the story's not over. I just want to make sure people understand that. So that's good. They're not going to have us be interrogated. But I really hope that the Trump administration now will signal ahead of time that under no conditions will they tolerate the Russian government indicting and convicting U.S. government officials for doing their job when they were in the government. Because if they start that, that is a dangerous, dangerous precedent. for all of our diplomats serving all over the world, for our military serving all over our world, they just got to back that idea down and they have to do it now. Yeah, you were 100% right. I read in the press that you were planning to meet with officials at the Trump White House today. Did that happen? And if so, what was it like being back on the old stomping grounds?

Was that a little strange? Well, I am in Washington or it was in Washington this morning. I'll be back there tomorrow to talk with many different government officials about my situation. and my message is just what I said just now that, you know, make clear to your Russian interlocutors that this is not going to be tolerated and we're not going to start chasing U.S. government officials around the world on the Interpol. And I just hope they'll, you know, pass that message on. That's why I've come to Washington.

You know, the content of what I talked about, I don't want to talk about, but I will say, Tommy, the last time I was in the White House was December 2,000. 2016. Our former boss had a reception for ambassadors, you know, right before he left office. That was a melancholy day, but also great to see all those people, our mutual colleagues. This is our, those are my first time being back in the old executive office building today. And, you know, the first thing I saw that reminded me of where in a new era was those photos. Jumbos. The president and the vice president, where President Obama and Vice President Biden used to be.

that was, I noted that. Yeah, that was a little weird. A little weird. I'm trying to, yeah, it was a little weird. Thank you. I'm trying to be diplomatic. I know, I know. You're good at it.

But I do want to say on this set of issues, we can have policy debates about certain things, and that's normal. That's called democracy, right? We cannot have a partisan debate about whether we're going to offer up American government officials, including our intelligence officers. Remember, that's what Putin says. said first and foremost, the dictators like Putin.

No. And this is not Democrat-Republican. This is an American national security issue. And I really, really hope the Trump administration will understand it in those terms. Yeah, me too. Mike, thank you for talking to me. I'm sorry you to deal with this shit this week. I mean, what a frightening, terrible chapter to have to go through.

I hope it goes exactly, as you said, and the Trump administration will quickly completely rule out any cooperation here because it is outrageous. I think it probably speaks highly of. your character and the work you've done that Vladimir Putin dislikes you this much. And if people want to find out why, you know, being on Putin's shit list, I guess, counts for something. Yeah. Right. And I am proud of what I did there. And I wanted to explain that in the book, but also explain the nature of this regime. Because we got to push back on this regime. We as Americans have to stand together. They do some very

belligerent things, including against Americans. And it's time to push back. That's right. And the book is fantastic from Cold War to Hot Peace. You've talked to me at great length about it on this show. You will learn more about U.S. Russia relations by reading that book than through almost anything else you can do. So thank you for doing this. It's unbelievable to me that you made time for me from a green room in New York City when you've been traveling all over the place lately. So I am so grateful and I hope to see in person soon. Thanks for having me, Tommy. Really appreciate it. All right, buddy. See you, bye. Bye-bye.

And when we come back, my interview with Jason resigned in The Washington Post, I just want to give you a quick heads up that there was a slight audio issue on the other end of this conversation. So you will hear Jason's audio from a phone call. Not perfect or ideal, but I think it will be worth your time. So Jason, late on Sunday night when many of us were either asleep or sad that the HBO Sunday night programs were over, Donald Trump was busy rage tweeting. He said, never ever threaten the United States again or you will suffer consequences, the likes of which few throughout history have ever suffered before.

I tried to do that in an all-caps voice, but I don't know that I... Yeah, that sounded all-caps for me. Thank you very much. Good effort. That was a shouted tweet at Iranian President Rouhani. It was reportedly in response to Rahani making a comment advising the U.S. against continuing its hardline policies against Iran. What did you make against this latest all-caps broadside?

Well, the timing of it was really interesting. I was down in Simi Valley that night where Secretary of State Pompeo. was addressing the Iranian community in an event called Supporting Iranian Voices. And I think the president's tweet came out just after Secretary Pompeo made his remarks. And, you know, I think it's a part of this call and response that's been going on between Tehran and Washington at various decibels for almost four decades now. But I think that we're in a really volatile moment. And, you know, I just don't see how the president trying to kind of, kind of,

poke Iran at this point helps anything. Right. Yeah. I mean, and sadly, diplomacy by obnoxious tweet is now one of our main exports. Iran's foreign minister, Javad Zarif, responded, saying, color us unimpressed. The world heard even harsher bluster a few months ago. The Iranis have heard them, albeit more civilized ones for 40 years. He's not wrong about that. We've been around for millennia and seen fall of empires, including our own, which lasted more than the life of some countries. Be cautious, all caps. This is, starting to feel like North Korea all over again. Are you worried about this rhetoric escalating, or is this just the same bullshit for 40 years, as Zarif sort of says?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a lot of the same bullshit. And I think that, you know, we will hear bluster from various voices within Iran and we'll hear other more tempered voices and others, frankly, calling for renewed dialogue with the United States. So, you know, I think it's just, as many people have pointed out, potentially. diversionary tactics to so many of the other things that are going on. But, you know, when you look at Iran's position in the world, right there at the Strait-Hormos, the flow of oil, and Iran's really ramped up capabilities regionally, it just doesn't seem like something that we should be tempting fate with. Yeah. So let's just sort of dig into that for one second. The Strader-Hormuz is

sort of a choke point in the Gulf, right, where all-oil passes through. So if something The vast majority of oil, I can't remember the percentage, but it's, you know, it's the main conduit for, you know, oil to get to the rest of the world. It has to pass through there. There's no other way. And, you know, Iran and its military and the IRDC, you know, have a strong presence of it. Yeah, very active Navy. They have these little boats that will go out and harass the biggest destroyers they can find. It's nearly led to a whole series of incidents. So that's not great. As you mentioned earlier, so Iran has stepped up its efforts to, exert its influence in places outside its borders. So there's Yemen, there's various cyber hacking efforts. So Trump's not wrong to be frustrated with a lot of Iranian activity, right? Is that fair? Not at all. I mean, you know, one of the things that I thought and wrote after Secretary Pompeo's speech was none of these stuff that he's saying is necessarily wrong. You know, Iran is up to all sorts of malign behavior and has been for a very long time. But I think that was one of the main

reasons that the last administration tried to engage Iran. And, you know, in my understanding, you know, they took on the hardest issue to resolve the nuclear issue and were able to come to an agreement. Now, people may or may not like the terms of that agreement, but it was an agreement that was made between Iran, the United States, and all the other major powers and the EU. which really curtailed Iran's nuclear activities and made it very difficult for them to hide any, if not impossible, clandestine activities within their territory. So, I mean, I think what's happening right now is the last administration diffused a potential crisis, and this one with the help of, you know, the Israeli government and Saudi Arabia is trying to renew the same case that just got resolved.

Yeah. You might, you could probably lump the UAE in there. I mean, I could be wrong. No, man, I'm with you. Like, look, you know, I feel like I'm an Iran apologist because I'm so frustrated with Trump's decision to pull out of the Iran deal. So I do just want to level set and make everyone clear that the enemy of my enemy is not my friend in this instance.

Well, they're not good guys, right? Let me echo that. I mean, as their exalted guests for 544 days, you know, I'm no fan of theirs. And I'd love nothing more to see theocratic regime in Iran disappear replaced by secular democracy where the Iranian people are allowed to explain. express themselves and there's no gender apartheid and people can flourish and grow their lives. Unfortunately, I don't see what we're doing right now being the way to help promote that. So, you know, you and I are on the same page.

Yeah, yeah. And I want to get more into your unique expertise into the Iranian regime, your time in Tehran and your unintended stay at the even prison holiday suites or whatever the fuck they call it. But you mentioned Pompeo's speech a bunch of times. So this tweet, the timing of Trump's tweet on Sunday night, the Pompeo speech, they are making this big PR push that's designed to name and shame and destabilize Iran's leadership, in my opinion. Pompeo accused the Supreme Leader of Iran of controlling a personal off the books hedge fund worth $95 billion that he said acts as a slush fund for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, which is a sort of paramilitary force that does a lot of the bad activity. that we don't like in places like Yemen or cracks down on the Iranian people. And he's trying to make the case.

Pompeo was that the people in charge are getting fat and happy and make them a ton of money while average people suffer. Is that true? And do you think that that kind of message from the Trump administration can be heard by the Iranian people? Like, are they the right messengers? Look, I mean, I think that message has been relayed to them through their own experience for many years.

Right. There is a lot of truth to that. Look, I can't speak to the numbers that Secretary Pompeo was thrown around that night. But I will tell you that, you know, as someone who lived in Iran and reported from there during the most severe sanctions, which, you know, by the way, led to Iran negotiating with us. You know, the effect that it has on people is staggering. The way your livelihood and the makeup of your life shifts, in some cases almost overnight, is shocking. And, you know, I think that the promise of the JCPOA from the Iranian side, from the Iranian leadership side to its home people, was we're going to get you out of the from under the rock of sanctions and help to bring back your spending power

and help to improve the quality of your lives. Now, is there rampant corruption that lines the coffers of all of Iran's clerical leaders? Yeah, certainly. But at the same time, by cutting off all supplies to money, by cutting off oil sales, by making it difficult for Iranians to import all manner of goods, for making it almost impossible for them to travel, right? You know, we have this travel ban in place that is now going to make it, except in the rarest cases, kind of outlawing Iranians and citizens of several other countries from even visiting the United States.

By doing that, it also devalues their passport in the eyes of other nations. What you're doing is really just trapping these people in an increasingly difficult situation. And while, as I said, some of the things that Secretary Pompeo was saying about corrupt Iranian leaders certainly is true, but that doesn't mean that by, you know, cutting, off all economic activities, that's going to be beneficial with people. It'll be the opposite. Yeah, I mean, this feels like a not at all subtle regime change strategy, which shouldn't surprise you from John Bolton or Pompeii or any of these guys. But yeah, as you lay out, there are some problems here. One, we're about to sanction Iran's banking sector. By November, we've told every other

country on the planet to stop buying oil from Iran or they might sanction us. So that kind of complicates this whole empathy with the suffering of the Iranian people message. Two, the nuclear program is popular in Iran. And then the thing that I can't get my brain around is what evidence there is that destabilizing the current government would lead to a more Western-friendly government as opposed to empowering the military and the IRGC and senior goons like Qasem Soleimani, who is viewed as a murderous terrorist-supporting thug by the United States. So I don't get the endgame here. Well, you're not alone. I don't get it either. And I don't think that the administration gets to be there, right? I think that they have this fantasy that everything is just

going to work out. And, you know, my attitude has always been that change will come to Iran when people inside demand it. And people are demanding it, right? People are going out protesting, whether it's protesting against the mandatory hijab for women, whether it's protesting, you know, back pay that's not being paid, whether it's protesting water shortages. There's a lot to be angsty about there, and there always have been. But, you know, people are feeling more emboldened now than ever before. And it's not because anything that we're necessarily doing. It's because the trend of history is moving in that direction. And the fact that, you know, the penetration of smartphones and internet really in the hands of almost anybody in the country who wants it is opening up

their eyes to all sorts of realities that are going on inside the rest of the world, things that they're not being able to have access to. So, you know, to equate Iran, to North Korea. And I'll be very honest. I've never been to North Korea. I'm speculating here. You can't make a comparison between these two countries. They have nothing in common with each other. Iranians have had a very direct and long relationship through trade, through commerce, through diplomacy, for literally centuries, if not millennia. And, you know, I just don't see that stopping. Yeah, me either. Do you know the little right-wingers on the internet like to call me Tehran, Tommy? I think the illiteration just speaks to them. I get stuff like that all the time. I've never been to Iran. I'd never been to North Korea either. I'd love to go to Tehran. What is Tehran like to ask a stupid question? Tehran is a really vast city. I think that the census would officially say that there's about 14, 15 million people living there. But it's like L.A.

A million more come in every day to go to work. You know, it's perpetually choked with traffic. and smog, and it's not exactly the most beautiful city architecturally in the world, but it's got its charm because there's a real rhythm to life there. You know, I think it's a melting pot of Iran, which is a country that many people forget is home to 80 million people, many of them from very varying ethnic, religious, social background, and everybody wants to come to that city. It's not a particularly religious city. I've spent a lot of time in other parts of the Middle East and places like Turkey as well,

where, you know, when the call to prayer comes in Istanbul, you will know it because there are loudspeakers blaring all over the town, right? Or Dubai or anywhere else in the Gulf. In Iran, Tehran specifically, it's a city that is sort of on the surface has a lot of symbolism of Islam and a lot of memorials to people who died in the war with Iraq in the 1980s. It's ultimately a pretty vibrant and in some ways really secular town. And, you know, there's huge variations in the types of people that live there from, you know, the poorest to the wealthiest people in the country.

And it's a place that, you know, despite what happened to me, remains in my imagination one of my favorite places to be. Wow. That's cool. Hopefully we'll all get to go there sometime soon when things show up. I hope all of us can. And I would like to see. That's another thing.

I mean, it's a country that just a handful of Americans have visited over the years. Before I was arrested up until 2014 or so, the average number of Americans who visited Iran each year was with fewer than 500. And that included non-Iranian Americans. That included aid workers and journalists and diplomats, people working at. international organizations like UNESCO or UNICEF. So that's a tiny, tiny, tiny number. And, you know, I always felt like a sort of a kid in a candy store. I mean, if you're an adventurous person that wants to see the world, a fascinating place to do.

Yeah, who wants to tell new stories. I mean, the U.S. Embassy closed in 1979 for very good reasons. But just time and time again in North Korea, Iran, Pakistan for a period, the closing down of embassies, the shutting down of exchanges of individuals. It's just so damaging. Let me ask you about the nuclear program for a minute because it feels like three years ago, but it was, I think, not even three months ago that Donald Trump walked away from the nuclear deal with Iran. This was a deal that gave Iran economic relief for making major concessions to curtail and stop its nuclear program. How did people feel about the deal in Iran when it was first agreed to?

And what was a response to Trump deciding to tear it up? I think at the moment when it was agreed to in July of 2015, there was a moment of national celebration. There was a real strong campaign by opponents, domestic opponents inside Iran of the deal to do whatever they could to make sure that it didn't happen. But once it did happen, it was considered a great victory. and it was advertised as such through Iran various propaganda means, whether it was a state television or the internet or newspapers. To the extent that, you know, Zarif, the foreign minister, and his negotiating team were really lionized, treated like heroes for a few months. But then when the deal was implemented, I think some of the luster kind of diminished because the massive sanctions relief, which was promised to the people, didn't really materialize in the way that they had hoped.

And I think that the Obama administration was aware that there was going to be a limited bump in the short term, especially, partially and largely because the Iranian regime had done so many nasty things over the years that many international companies didn't want to go there and do business. They were concerned about the safety of their staff, concerned that new punitive measures might be put on Iran, so it wouldn't be a place to invest in long term. So, you know, over the last two years or so, it's lost some of its luster. But ultimately, I think when President Trump decided to pull out of it, it was hugely disappointing for a vast number of Iranians who thought that it still could be the beginning of a new era.

I mean, I think that there's a general consensus within Iranian society and Iranian officialdom that the country can't go on without a relationship with the United States. What country can go on without a relationship with the United States? Not Iran, I don't think. After all of these years, that fundamental pillar of death to America and antagonism towards America is starting to seem like more of a liability than a revolutionary strength. And I think people are much more open about talking about that internally in the country

than they ever have been before. So it's surprising to me that, you know, you wouldn't just let those things take shape themselves. I mean, I was not very optimistic about the sanctions that the Obama administration put on because, you know, after 2009, after the very questionable re-election or reselection of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as president in Iran, you know, there was a very dark period of time in that country. but little by little people started pushing back. And, you know, the avenues of free expression, not in terms of people coming out and being activists against policy, but people pushing the limits about what they could do socially was something that anybody that was living there would see, you know,

on a month-to-month basis. And, you know, in the summertime, the morality police would come crack down on women because they were showing too much hair or too much skin. But, you know, over time, it's clear that that's a losing battle. And, you know, I feel like at no point have we really gotten on the right side of this. And, you know, my opinion is the Iranian people have never had a friend in their own government or in this one. I mean, it just seems like that spontaneous political

courage is far more likely to lead to a regime change outcome than a Pompeo speech. And that's what I don't get here. Like, is, is President Rouhani, popular domestically. Do you think these machinations out of Washington are going to hurt him? I don't think that they're going to hurt him. I mean, I think he's already very much sideline and maybe even a lame duck with three years to go. He is the ultimate regime insider. But 20 years ago when you had the first so-called reformist president, Muhammad Hattemi, there was a period of time where he was able to push forward some social reforms. People call those minor social reforms now, but as somebody who was traveling to the country at the time, you know, the changes between 2001 and 2005 were pretty dramatic.

You know, I think that in the last year or two of his presidency, though, he was sidelined as well. This is sort of a common trait. You know, Iran has a supreme leader who ostensibly gets to decide everything if he wants to. But there's pretty robust politics in that country. And, you know, I'd be the last person to say, that I have a favorite or somebody that I would like to see do well there. But what I would like to see is any kind of force that's pushing for a freer, more open, secular, and equal society, we should be getting behind them. And I don't think that that's necessarily Rohani, but, you know, the alternatives oftentimes are much nastier.

So we've alluded to this a couple times. You were the Tehran Bureau Chief for the Washington Post, and your Iran expertise did not come easily. Can you talk about why July 22nd is an important and infamous day in your life? Yeah, I mean, July 22nd was the day in 2014 that my wife and I were very shockingly arrested in our homes and dragged off to Avine Prison, where I was kept for 544 days. She was kept there for 72 days, all of them in solitary confinement. And, you know, it was unfortunate, very unfortunate, turning point in our lives. We were both successful journalists working for international media. We had a good life, a life that we liked very much, and that was all taken away from us.

We're still trying to put it all back together. Did they take her to harass you? I mean, it's shocking to me that they would do treat both of you like that. I mean, did you guys ever figure that out or understand why? Well, I think that as we go over the next few months and I'm able to tell my story in a more kind of complete way through my book and other focused opportunities to talk specifically about that year and a half, there was a lot of things at play. Internally inside Iran and within the negotiations with the United States. And I think the most succinct way I can put it right now is that we just got caught. in the eye of a geopolitical hurricanes.

And we're part of the victims of that. Yeah. You are actually the third journalist I've talked to on this show that was either captured or held hostage. David Rode was taken by the Taliban. Jonathan Alperi was held in Syria. So I think it's just a good reminder that the press is not the enemy of the people in any way, shape, or form.

And a lot of reporters put themselves at great personal risk to help us understand. and what the hell is going on in the world, which, as we've discussed in a place like Ron, is we're almost entirely reliant on reports from you or Thomas Erdbrink, who wrote for the New York Times to figure out what the hell was going on, because, you know, there's no embassy and intelligence collection is sporadic at best, maybe. Yeah. I mean, look, I appreciate you calling that out, mentioning the importance of the work we do and sometimes at great peril.

You know, I saw David wrote at an event recently. in memory of James Foley. Yeah. There was other journalists there as well. Others who'd been spent time as hostages in different parts of the world. And, you know, there's a streak in all of us that, you know, really wants to get into truth and try and explain difficult to understand cultures, events, trends, experiences, to folks back here in America.

And that's all we were trying to do. That's all I was ever trying to do. Right. And, you know, I think we should be doing everything we can to bolster the strength of media. And the attacks on the press from this president have not only undermined our ability to do our job here in the United States, but around the world. And I think it's going to take years to undo that. It didn't start with President Trump, but, you know, he's amplified this angst and given cover for a lot of, uh, bad, bad, bad actors, whether it's Erdogan in Turkey or the president of Philippines.

You know, we've started to take so much abuse. And, you know, to the extent that in a country like India, which is, you know, the world's largest democracy, there's more newspaper readers every day in India than there are citizens of the United States of America. Yeah. But just in the last several months, we've had multiple journalists, I was reporting on this not too long ago, multiple journalists really, you know, assassinated in the most vile ways run over by cars or trucks for doing their jobs.

Yeah. And, you know, that tells me that those people that are carrying out such acts consider us somehow less than human. Yeah. And I'd like to make the counterargument that, you know, actually, we are all very human. Yes. And all we're trying to do is shed light on common humanity and tell the stories of people.

people in places where if we weren't there, nobody would. You know, you mentioned some of the horrific targeting of journalists abroad. You know, you've also written recently about the murders at the Capitol Gazette, newspaper, and Annapolis. Did you find that that was a tipping point at this moment? I mean, what concerned you most about that incident and how we move forward from it? Well, look, I mean, I think that that was one more example of exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, I have the feeling that if I'm in the position to sit down and have a conversation with somebody and ask them questions or tell them my point of view or tell them about something that I know that I can convince them to take a second look or reconsider their own positions.

But when somebody walks into an office building and begins shooting people one by one, because of the job that they do, that's not something that I think we have an easy answer. to coping with. What I really would have liked to see is, you know, President Trump's come out much more aggressively in support of the press. I would love to see the flag waving a half-mask that week. He didn't do that. And, you know, I think it's just a general contempt, not just for the work that we do, but for the really, what I would consider, sacred right that we have to free expression. Yeah, agreed. your wife were arrested in Tehran shortly after talking with Anthony Bourdain for his show Parts Unknown, I really think that the impact of that show from a foreign policy perspective is underappreciated.

Like Ben Rhodes wrote about how he watched it and he learned about Vietnam and Burma and helped him sort of push policies in those places. I used to watch it and feel like I gained more understanding and empathy about cultures than I ever did from reading the newspaper or in intelligence reports. What did Anthony Bourdain mean to you? And I don't know, what was that experience like for you and him having done that show and then leading to this horrible, I'll be a temporary outcome? Look, you know, I want to say very, very plainly, our appearance on his show had nothing to do with us being arrested. You know, I think that the timing was unfortunate and it created the perception in many people's eyes that we had been arrested for being on the show. if anything, it was our appearance on that show that really raised our profile in a very real way, right?

All of a sudden you had this clip of not arguably, definitely, one of our most beloved television personalities, talking to my wife and I, and, you know, yucking it up over some food, right? And that was shown again and again and again. So, you know, you couldn't write a new story that said, you know, his neighbor said he was a quiet man, right? I mean, you know, we were real people that were sitting down and talking with Anthony Bourdain. And I felt like the fact that we were able to be on that show at the time was a real, real honor. I mean, I'd been a fan of his shows for many years. I'd been in touch with producers from the show from the time they were at the Travel Channel about doing a show in Iran. I never worked out.

And then this all came together in a very last minute kind of way. And look, we've had a lot of champions, a lot of people, a lot of angels. And Anthony Bourdain was probably the biggest one. I mean, not only did he do right by us and how they handled that episode and the cutting of it to make sure that it was done in a way that wouldn't lead to any more problems for us than we already had. But, you know, his commitment to our well-being after we were released as well, we had the opportunity to spend time with him. My book, you know, is being published by Anthony Bourdain books,

his imprint at Echo, because he, you know, he came to me and made the case that I should do it with him. And the case that he made was a really powerful one. He said, you know what? We're going to let you do the book that you want to do. People need to hear your story. and, you know, his death is something that has affected so many people. You know, when Yegi and I get recognized in public, this has been the case from the day that we got out.

I would say nine out of ten people recognize us from being on that show. And that's just elevated even more in these last few weeks since his passing. You know, I have people coming up to me all the time and saying, you know, I never met the guy, but I love the guy. And I can tell you that, you know, I met the guy. I had the opportunity to get to know him. And he was a wonderful human being and just meant and means the world to my wife. Yeah.

He's another person like you, who I feel like I know, but I've never met in person. But yeah, he was just so able to cut through the bullshit and focus on humanity. Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, one thing that people are starting to understand was just, you know, what a good chronicler witness he was, right? You know, he went all over the world, and he just knew what questions to ask. He knew how to handle himself in those situations.

He was very at ease with himself and others, and for that reason was able to really draw you into a place and take the temperature at that moment. And it's incredible to me when you look at the shows, how many of them took place at, you know, critical moments in the history of the places that he was visiting. or just ahead of critical moments. And I think, you know, we'll be watching his shows for decades to come to learn about the world.

Yeah, totally. I mean, humility and a sense of humor goes a long, long way. Definitely. Your book, Prisoner, is a memoir about the 18 months you spent in prison. You were released in 2016 as part of a prisoner exchange with Iran. Why do you think that was able to happen? Do you think such a swap would be possible now? And, I mean, were you just unaware of all of this through the duration of these negotiations?

because you were kept in solitary confinement or isolated from the news? I had inkling that something was going on, and I could understand that from periodic visits from my wife and my mom. They didn't realize what was happening behind the scenes, but as you know, there was a lot of public rhetoric and public conversation, public debate about my fate and the fate of other Americans being held in Iran throughout the entire time, whether it was coming from Washington or whether it was coming from Iran. I think one of the arguments that I made a few weeks ago, a couple months ago now,

when the Trump administration was really making the case to pull out of the nuclear deal, was that, you know, you would be leaving behind these Americans who are still stuck in prison there. The very same people who were saying, you know, we can't make a nuclear deal with Iran, while Americans are still in prison, that this should be a prerequisite to entering into any long-term negotiations or long-term pact with Iran. We're completely silent on the issue of Americans being detained there now. And, you know, my concern is that now that that deal is over, the opportunities to negotiate to speak directly with Iranian officialdom has diminished dramatically. And I don't know what sort of channels remain open.

I have tried to make myself available to whoever wants to talk to me about my experience and how I think it should be handled. But, you know, I wish that there was more attention paid to these cases. I've written about most of them. I always respect the wishes of families. But I think ultimately, when an American citizen is being held abroad, he's got a better chance than the citizens of other countries because your government cares for you. But they don't care for you if they don't know about you.

And, you know, I think it's wise to raise the awareness around these cases as much as he can't. I agree. Jason, I am really excited to read your book when it comes out and incredibly grateful that you spent some time talking with me. It's so... Can I come back on and talk about it when it comes out? Hell yeah. Absolutely. We're going to pitch the hell of this book because it's so nice to talk to someone about Iran, who actually live there and knows people and, you know, understands what it's like.

The traffic in Tehran. That's not something that most intelligence officials have a firsthand experience dealing with, and maybe that's the key. Well, Tommy, I hope when people read this book, they walk away with better understanding of me and my life, but more importantly, that place and what attracted me to that place. And, you know, you don't have to agree with the government and power to feel an affinity to a people. Right.

or to a culture, to a history, to a land. And I certainly, you know, despite everything that happened to me, still love that place. Yeah. Always will. Well, I think that speaks well of you in addition to Iran. So thank you again for doing the show. Keep doing great work, man.

This is a really awesome conversation. I appreciate it. Thanks, Tommy. I had a good time. Thank you very much. Thanks again for listen to POTSave the World. Next week, I will be on my honeymoon, but the show is still here.

I have a fantastic interview with Bassem, Yusuf. He's a hilarious comedian from Egypt, and we talked about the Arab Spring, his time in Cairo, and how he came to be called the Egypt's John Stewart. So stay tuned for that. You will love that conversation. Have it going.