Pod Save the World - War crimes in Ukraine

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Tommy and Ben discuss the horrifying images of war crimes against civilians in Ukraine, the growing support for far-right candidates in the upcoming French elections, Viktor Orban’s depressing victory in Hungary, political turmoil in Pakistan and Sri Lanka, the fragile ceasefire in Yemen and covid funding. Then Tommy talks with Anastasiia Lapatina from the Kyiv Independent about what it’s like covering the Russian invasion as it impacts her life and family in such a personal way.How to Help in UkraineUkrainian Congress Committee of America: donate to humanitarian effortsUnited Help Ukraine: donate to the life-saving medical supplies to Ukraine’s front linesRevived Soldiers Ukraine: donate to treatment of the wounded and the provision of hospitalsRazom for Ukraine: donate to tactical medical training and emergency response in UkraineNova Ukraine: donate to humanitarian aid for UkraineVox: How you can help UkrainiansFor a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. 

Welcome back to POTS of the World. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. Ben, how's the UK? Is Boris Johnson invited you to a party yet? It's basically all he does. No ragers here. I guess I'm in the wrong social circles to hit the Tory party circuit. There was, let me say this, Tommy. There's a huge cocaine scandal that blew up the day I got here involving a conservative MP. Pun intended. Really? Yeah, like remember we talked about cocaine parties? We did. Yes, too. How could I forget? There was a, like a, the Tory whip was like caught in some very compromising scene with some cocaine and, let's say a woman who didn't appreciate his advances. So, you know, it fit with what we talked about in the before times before we obviously had a war to talk about. But the cocaine parties appear to still be going strong here in the Tory party.

Wow. Maybe Madison Cothorne was just confused and he was actually in London when all this went down. just crack the case. Totally. Doing some investigative work out here. Yeah, good for you. Thanks for cracking that case for us. Yeah, like Sherlock Holmes over there.

Well, two quick housekeeping items. Check out the latest episode of Crooked's newest podcast, strict scrutiny to catch up on Judge Katanji Brown Jackson's confirmation hearings. Each week, law professors Leah Lippman, K. Shah, and Melissa Murray, use their experience to help you understand the inner workings of the Supreme Court. It's decision, its culture, the personalities, the fantastic show. Also, this week on America Dissected, Dr. Abdul-El Say, had talks with David Miliband, the president and CEO of the International Rescue Committee,

about the refugee crisis in Ukraine and what it means for our double standard for refugees. So check out both of those shows wherever you get your podcasts. So we are going to talk about the war in Ukraine, including the horrifying images of Russian war crimes that came out over the weekend, just like shocking stuff. I also interview Anastasia Lapitina from the Kiev Independent about what it's like to cover this war and to experience it so personally. I mean, her house was shelled. Her mom's apartment was ransacked.

And then it was just, it was really interesting talking to her about like what the, what the meaning of bias even is anymore as a reporter or as a journalist whose home has been invaded by a foreign army. It was a really thoughtful conversation. Again, like another conversation with Ukrainian where, you know, she speaks like four languages and perfect English and I can like barely pronounce. words to save my life and just such an impressive journalist. Yeah, I have to say amidst everything else in this war, like the quality of the Ukrainian

journalists who are risking everything to cover this, even as their families and friends are, in some cases, killed, is one of the many astonishing things about Ukrainians. I mean, the really incredibly young journalists at times, too, just doing remarkable reporting. Yes, truly. We are also going to talk about outside Ukraine news. The upcoming French elections, Victor Orban's, very depressing victory in Hungary, political turmoil in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, the ceasefire in Yemen that we all are crossing our fingers and hope holds for a while, and then why COVID funding got chopped from a Senate bill recently. But Ben, let's start in Ukraine because, as we preview you, the news over the weekend was truly horrifying.

We talked last week about how the Russians were going to pull back the military from Kiev and focus on the east. They did that, and that's allowed the Ukrainian forces to get into these areas. It's led journalists to get into the areas that had been occupied and cut off. And what they found was wide-scale evidence of war crimes. In the town of Boucher, hundreds of citizens were executed. They're bound shot left in the streets. There were mass graves. There are stories about rape, torture, people on the brink of starvation.

afterwards, you know, after this news came out, President Biden reiterated his belief that Putin has committed war crimes. President Zelensky visited Buccia. You could literally see the pain on his face. He called the genocide. The State Department says they believe what happened in Buccia is not an isolated incident, but a systemic effort. So you have to worry about what else we're going to find in cities that have been occupied. In response, Germany and France expelled a bunch of Russian diplomats. European countries are now talking about banning coal, oil. oil, maybe gas, although the Germans are really dragging their feet on banning oil and gas because they're so relying on it still.

Biden says there's going to be more sanctions. And then he wants to put Putin on trial basically for war crimes. So, you know, it seems likely the Russia is now going to double down on taking and holding territory in eastern Ukraine. This will become a protracted struggle. Ben, you know, like building on my conversation with Anastasia, I mean, it's hard not to see these images and just feel fucking bloodlust, you know? I mean, I was watching the new Saturday.

I was texting with you and I'm sitting there intermittently thinking, like, send them every weapon they want, send in NATO, like, do whatever it takes. But obviously, all the risks of escalation and war are still there and right. And you don't want to be like intemperate and emotional in these moments. I don't know. I just wondered how you were thinking about this and dealing with like the horror of these moments and, you know, the moral outrage that comes with seeing what we're seeing. And all the considerations we've talked about earlier about the risk of escalation and, you know, a nuclear armed war. Well, I mean, it was some of the most gut-wrenching imagery, you know, you'd ever see. And Tommy, what really got me is thinking about what are we going to find in Maricopal, you know, what are we going to find?

And this is one suburb of Kiev. And there's no reason to believe that the Russians aren't doing in other places what they did in Bucha. You know, I think that the word genocide is not one you use lightly because it has a very specific meaning. It's not just a war crime or crime against humanity. But in this case, I think we have to actually start thinking about that word because when you look at what they're doing in terms of the indiscriminate killing of Ukrainians, the deportations of Ukrainians into Russia, and then like the rhetoric around Ukraine shouldn't exist as a country. And there's some Russian state media that is very chilling to read about essentially needing to eliminate Ukraine. That's genocide, you know. And so we're at a level here where, you know, we have not seen this in Europe since World War II.

And Zelensky was right to use that word, even as you need to gather evidence and build a case to reach the threshold. But that's the scale of what we're talking about. I think for me, you know, first of all, the continued, you know, on sanctions, continuing to send Russia checks every day to buy gas. and just feels like morally untenable. And I know how difficult this is for Europe, and it's maybe easier for us to say that from America where we're not dependent on Russian gas in the same way they are.

But I just think that the sanctions have to get to a level where there's not these kind of massive carveouts for tremendous infusions of revenue into Russia from the sale of oil and gas and coal. Europe has started down this road with coal, which is the easiest thing to do. but I do think that you can't just keep buying gas from someone that's committing genocide in Europe, you know, and so I think the sanctions have to escalate.

I think on the weapons, you know, there's been clearly this effort to draw a distinction between defensive weapons, any aircraft weapons, any tank weapons, and then weapons that could be used offensively, not just against Russian forces in Ukraine, but potentially, hypothetically, into Russia. And so I think that explains some of the reticence around tanks and playing. planes, but I don't know, man. Like, we're drawing boundaries around the provision of weapons in dealing with someone who is in Vladimir Putin, just massacring people.

I would be very open to opening up the aperture on the types of weapons that are being provided. Like, we're already doing this. And these people are literally in a fight for their very survival, you know. So while I continue to be totally understanding of the Biden administration's caution around direct escalation and conflict with Russia from NATO, I do think the kind of restraints that have been imposed on the sanctions and the weaponry after this, you really have to think about relaxing those and going to places you haven't. And like you, we were texting about this, but like we're only like a month and a half into this war. Like, it does make you think where is this going to be in six or eight months? And that's truly scary to think about above all for Ukrainians.

But, I mean, it does speak to the potential for this thing to continue to escalate. Yeah, look, there's risks of escalation, right? But there's also risks to civilians of things dragging on. And yeah, I too, like no longer understand the lines that are being drawn around what weapons systems are offensive or defense or not. And Estasia and I talked about this. I mean, one country was invaded, therefore what they're trying to do is defend it. I'm like, give them the migs.

Give them those Turkish drones. Give them tanks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give them the S 300. Like I just, I don't, I feel like we're getting kind of wrapped around the axle. The U.S. government is getting wrapped around the axle of some sort of legalistic

determination. And I don't know that that's the right course. The other part of this is, you know, you want a peace process. Everyone wants a peace process to be happening. But, you know, when you saw what happened in Bucha, again, like, I don't know how Zelensky can be pressed. to cut a deal that leaves hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens living in Russian occupation, you know, I mean, and meanwhile, the Russians are like gaslighting and they're saying that

these videos are staged and the Ukrainians did a false flag to try, like, it's just such, it's outrageous, insane nonsense. And it's just like, every day this is getting more complicated. Yeah, on the weapons thing, because I've sat in the exact discussion on the situation room about, you know, defenses versus offensive, but we may be imposing a logic on our own decision-making in the U.S. that, like, Putin is not, you know, abiding by some invisible line, you know, I mean, and so I think it's time to kind of, again, unburden ourselves of, you know, not every constraint. I think, you know, NATO getting involved in this ratchets it up in ways that directly involved that, you know, could really, you know, cross that threshold and escalation

with a nuclear-armed country, obviously. But, but, but, yeah, giving these people everything that they need to defend themselves and not drawing distinctions between weapons that are going to be used against Russia in any case, makes sense to me. On the, on the gaslighting like you, it's, it's so offensive to basically be committing war crimes and then to be, you know, Alex Jonzing it, you know, and these are crisis actors or the Ukrainians are killing people or staging these things. But I think what we have to remember is that we in the U.S. and in Europe, everybody probably listening to this podcast, just assumes the Russians are gaslighting and that this stuff is happening. But remember that the audience for this Russian garbage is India, China, you know, a nation sitting on the fence in the Middle East and Africa.

And, you know, that's a much more complicated environment. Because if you look at Chinese media, they're relaying the Russian disinformation. They're echoing this. They're echoing it. The Indian media, you know, same thing. And so we shouldn't think it's not effective just because it's so absurd. And I think that that puts it on everybody who has any voice, whether it's governments or, you know, media, people like us are a little tiny whole piece of this. but like, you know, to be unequivocal in calling out what this is, which is war crimes and then

gaslighting about war crimes, we should not assume that the audience for Russian disinformation is us. You know, it's this bigger global audience. And that's why I think Zelensky is talking to every single parliament that we'll have him in the world, but we have to be helping him too. Yeah. And, you know, look, there are probably some audiences that are more used to these sort of conspiratorial narratives and are more predisposed to believe them. But also, you know, the goal of propaganda is not necessarily to get me to believe your version of events

as opposed to my version of events. It's just to confuse everything and to flood the zone with bullshit. And the Russians know that they can send out Peskov or their foreign minister, whoever just to lie about what happened with impunity and it'll take the New York Times three days of comparing satellite imagery

from three weeks ago to today. to like prove them wrong. And, you know, there's no cost for them. They just bullshit, bullshit, bullshit and flood the zone with nonsense. And, you know, I think people, when you're in that kind of information environment, you get overwhelmed by it and you get confused and you kind of like maybe give up on trying to find the truth. Yeah.

I mean, and this is a really important point you make that like the Russians don't care if their narratives even make sense or even if they contradict each other. Like, you know, so when, you know, I think I've talked about when they shot down the plane full of civilians over eastern Ukraine in 2014. One day it was the Ukrainians shot it down. One day it was it crashed. Now it's one day it's like these are crisis actors, the next day it's that the Ukrainians are killing people.

It's a flood the zone strategy. It's not like a build, a cogent narrative that can move. And look, if you think that it's crazy that anyone would believe this, there are a bunch of people in this country that believe that the world is governed by a cabal of child sex traffickers and their United States senators asking questions like that. Q&ON. Yeah. There are people who believe that Newtown was a crisis acting to take away their guns, right?

So this stuff tragically works and the only antidote to it is being, like you said, like the three-day investigation is great, but sometimes it's also just like reporting like what's happening without equivocation, you know? What appears to be happening is what's happening. And what's happening appears to be genocide. Yeah. And look, we approach that in America with humility, given how badly we fucked up the Iraq war and the run up to it and all the reporting around it.

But, yeah, I agree. Like, sometimes, you know, sometimes I think maybe we need to do a little better job of factoring in the just utter total lack of credibility of the Russian propaganda machine in this instance. Yeah. So we'll hear a lot more about Ukraine in the interview later. But, Ben, I wanted to go to the French election with you because on Sunday the 10th, so five days from when we're recording, French voters go to the polls in the first round of their two-part presidential election process. The current trajectory of that election looks worrisome for President Macron and for anyone who dislikes racist, xenophobic, right-wing nationalists. So the latest polling has Macron getting 28 percent of the vote, while Marine Le Pen, who is, you know, this, she's a right-winger, she's xenophobic, she's anti-Muslim.

Lom, there's anti-Semitism throughout her party, but she's trying to run this time. The National Rally Party is the more sanitized right-wing option. She's polling at around 21%. And then even more extreme guy, this guy, Eric Zamora, former like Tucker Carlson-like radio host, is at 11%. So what that means is that Macron and Marine Le Pen will likely win the first round, and then they'll go to a head-to-head runoff. In 2017, Macron beat LePen in a runoff 66 to 33. Right now, the polling shows him winning by.

about 54 to 46. So the question is really like how did that gap shrink that much? Right. I mean, has Macron run a bad campaign? Has he been too focused on this, you know, diplomatic effort between Russia and Ukraine while Le Pen is just talking about inflation and rising gas prices? Are people just pissed because of the economy? Are these far right messages demagoguing Muslims and immigrants resonating? Is it a combo? Like, we don't know yet. But what worries me or Ben is, you know, candidates like Le Pen, Victor Orban, who we're going to talk about in a second, often exploit these economic disruptions, like the one we've been in because of the pandemic or entering into because of the Russian invasion and do well in elections because they can just, you know, be anti-immigrant and demagogue their way to office. And so, you know, this, this gap closing between Macron and Le Pen, even if he ultimately wins a runoff. Like it feels like a worrisome trajectory to me, but I don't know. How are you looking at this? Yeah, I mean, and we should be, and the other thing I'd say about Le Pen is that this is someone has been very close to Putin over the years.

Her party, very close. Her party literally was financed by Russia, which is remarkably not illegal. And they had a trash a bunch of a leaflet that featured her shaking hands with the Kremlin. I mean, yeah, like Tucker Carlson levels of embrace of Putin. She's tried to shift course since the war started. But anyway, you get the picture. I mean, I think that, like, yeah, I think, you know, Macron is this guy who's tried to kind of, his political strength has also become his weakness, which is that he's just kind of a vowed centrist, right? And that's split apart French politics. And so the left has kind of been fractured in different parties and then the right. But the problem that's left him is there's not like a huge intensity of pro-McCron voters. You know, you have this far right that is worrisome. like you said, it's worrisome just how big the far right is. You know, if you add her support

plus the other guy, you're looking at like a healthy third plus of the French people. And then it may be, you know, I don't, that Macron is is kind of so floating in the kind of, you know, neolib centrist space that there are those people who are kind of hard left to the point that they drift to the far right person, you know. Right. I still. And maybe because they are anti-immigrant, right? Maybe they're like liberal on certain things, but they're just, you know, apparently these messages are really resonating and no one in French politics is willing to push back on far right theories like the great replacement theory that, that, you know, immigrants are coming into replace French people and that's like a grand scheme here. It's very scary. Yeah, and I do think that

Macron seemed to be running a version of a French version of what we call a Rose Garden strategy, right, where he's been Colin Putin and Colin Zelensky and agonizing and pictures, you know, of him on the phone. And he's got to get out. out there in campaign. I'm not that worried. Maybe I should be about him losing because the pattern and previous runoffs, including the last one with Le Pen, is it like once the French people really look over the precipice with her, they tend to swing back away from her. But just the fact that we're having this conversation is worrying. And just the fact that she may come closer than last time is worrying about where the trend lines are going even after the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It does suggest to me the need for Macron to do some real work here. And by the way, like, you know, like just splitting left and right may get you through, but it's not building like a viable sense of where France is going, right? Like you said, it's not addressing this kind of creeping, increasing levels of xenophobia that you worry about. In other words, I mean, I may be betraying my own. politics here, but maybe move a little bit to the left here to give some of those people something to believe in and connect to.

If you're not going to appeal to the far right, I'd rather you try to build some support to your left, too. So it's worth watching, and it's worrisome. And I think the Macron, who has some real political talent, like we've been negative. I mean, he's a very talented politician, much more talented than Francois Hollande, the previous French president, probably than Sarkozy. but he's got to get back out there and do the work. Yeah, the Palais de Elysee strategy is not working.

There was a cartoon in one of the big papers, like La Figuero or something that was Macron about to address a big rally and holding his cell phone being like, hold on, Vladimir, I've got to do these chores. I'll get right back to you. Treating the people as an afterthought. Speaking of this, sort of same theme, it's bad news out of Hungary.

Not only did Hungarian Prime Minister of Viktor Orban win a fourth term, but he won by a bigger march than expected. The last numbers I saw had his Fides party getting about 53 in the opposition coalition getting 35% of the vote. Obviously, as you discussed in great detail, in the interview last week, this was not a free or fair election. Orban gerrymanders, the parliament, he controls the media, but it's an ugly outcome. And Orban, true to form, uses victory speech to attack his opponents, attack the EU, attack the mainstream media, and attack President Zelensky, of all people. Any thoughts from you on this depressing outcome and how we should read it?

Yeah, I have a bunch of thoughts, just given how much I've tried to immerse myself in Hungarian politics the last few years. And I've been checking in with some of the opposition people I know. This was a devastating result. Because, you know, I don't think anybody, it was a long, long shot, given how rigged the playing field was, as we talked about last time. We're not to revisit that. but, you know, Orban wasn't exactly a fair election. But still, he outperformed, and I make a few points.

The first is one of the worrying things is that the opposition decided to have this big tent strategy where all the different opposition parties banded together, which seemed like a smart strategy. But part of what that did is that the previously far-right party in the opposition block, Orban really went after those voters and got a bunch of those people. And in fact, an even more far-right party popped up such that the Hungarian parliament is going to be a pretty significant majority for Orban's party plus even crazier far-right people. And so we really have to keep our eye on the status of civil society and the press and Hungary. And does Orban continue to move in the kind of Putinist direction here? That's the first point. I think the second point is, interestingly,

because he dominated the media, and we talked about this with Catalan last week, he closed on a message that if the opposition won, they were going to get them into war in Ukraine somehow. And apparently that was very effective, you know, and this is what happens when you control the media. You know, you can say, oh, if the opposition wins, they're going to go to war in Ukraine. And so I think that speaks to like just, again, needing to get information into people in these places where autocrats have kind of built a media dominance. I think the Zelensky thing, you know, he talked about this is a victory over Zelensky and George Soros. Tommy, what are those have in common.

Jewish, right? It was not subtle. And so this speaks to the character of who Victor Orban is. But in like reflecting where to go, you know, I, and you heard me talk about this last week, I've been, I thought it was an intriguing strategy by the Hungarian opposition to band together. But they banned it together and the person they chose to get behind as their prime minister candidate was the most conservative amongst the Hungarian opposition, right? and that didn't work because people were like, well, you know, like the opposition is putting a

big tent and they've got this conservative guy who's their candidate and they've got a far right party in their tent, maybe I'll just go with like the real thing, right? And it might suggest, and this is something we're going to have to like pressure test with other countries, which I'll get to in one second, but like maybe they should have gone with like the stronger alternative, you know, Like, you know what? Like maybe the way, you know, it's always a debate. And we have the debate here in the U.S. Do you beat a right-wing autocrat with like a more conservative center-left person or do you

try to just be who you are? And it may be that the Hungarian opposition needs to be like, this is who we are. We believe in these values. You know, I think we failed them, the United States and the European Union. The European Union today triggered what's called the rule of law mechanism, which is something that allows them to kind of exert more pressure on. the day after the election. I think the EU and the U.S. should have been, yeah,

EU and the U.S. should have been more outspoken before this election about the danger of Viktor Orban instead of, you know, ending up issuing warnings the day after. The last thing I'd say is that I hope that people don't give up hope in central and eastern Europe in places where they're experiencing this. You know, apathy is what Orban wants to grind you down with. And that has been the case in Serbia where there's an election as well. There's upcoming elections. I heard from somebody in the Slovenian opposition, not a country we tracked very closely,

but she said, you know, this could be demoralized into our people, but we're building a movement here. We think we can win. We have to, you know, care about places like Slovenia. We have to care about, you know, because if one, if the damn breaks on these autocrats that are gaining a stranglehold on politics in some of these countries, hopefully that that can be contagious too. But this was a really shitty result.

And I really feel bad for all my Hungarian friends are. kind of live in a climate of even greater, I think, intimidation going forward. Yeah, really shitty result. And it frankly makes me nervous, given all the economic turmoil we are going through and about to go through more of, especially in Europe. And in the U.S., yeah. Because the world isn't complicated enough. Yeah, because the world is not complicated enough, there is a growing political crisis in

Pakistan. So here's the backstory on that. Pakistan's parliament was planning to hold a vote of no confidence on Prime Minister Imran Khan, the National Assembly in Pakistan. and can remove the prime minister from office with a simple majority vote. It looked like that was about to happen. Khan had pissed off the military last year.

He lost their support. And there was a bunch of growing anger among the population over inflation. Members of the coalition started to fracture and turn on him. So to get ahead of that vote, Khan dissolved parliament, prevented it from happening and called for new elections.

Dissolve the steel bend, some workshop, and a couple of things here. So that went over about as well as you think. with the opposition parties. They accuse him of staging a coup. They challenge his move for the Supreme Court. I believe there have been two days of hearings so far, but no decision as of when we started recording this on Tuesday.

It seems like there probably will be a new set of elections, but who knows? Meanwhile, Kahn is out there claiming that this is an American conspiracy to take him down, and everybody, I think, is basically watching to see if the Pakistani military gets more directly involved because I don't think any prime minister in Pakistan's history has served out their full term because something like this happens. How nervous are you about this one, political turmoil in another nuclear armed nation? I mean, it's very familiar, you know? I mean, like we've seen this in Pakistan before.

I mean, Imran Khan has hung on and he's kind of played different sides and he's aligned himself with the military at times and been at odds with them at others. he's clearly you know his efforts to hang on you know have more than the whiff of of desperation and

and soft autocracy on his part although make no mistake as you say like the military is ultimately behind it I mean again like like the risk of having like a dark series of conversations like the

the state of democracy in Pakistan just feels like like it, it's like, you know, half step forward, two steps back again and again, right? And I think, you know, you want to make sure that if you're, whatever the U.S. role is or other countries, that the focuses on the institutional processes, the focuses on trying to find democratic mechanisms to actually resolve a crisis, the problem is Pakistan more and more, has been, you know, closer to China and Russia. And so I don't have a lot of faith, right?

That that's what's going to happen, the outcome of this is going to be resolved through democratic means, you know? And I wish that weren't the case. You know what's interesting about that is I was listening to an economist reporter, I think he was the Bureau Chief in Pakistan, he was saying that the military actually might view Kana's two anti-West, that they're, they didn't, that the, you know,

Army Chief denounced the Russian invasion of Ukraine, they feel like they're getting too dependent on China and they want to rebalance in that sense, which is, you know, an interesting political dynamic. You know, I mean, Khan, Prime Minister Khan, he's an interesting guy. He was a cricket star, kind of a man about town, Lafario, who now pretends he's, like, devoutly religious and this is his new identity. And he, you know, demagogues the West to, you know, gain political favor. Who knows where he will take this, you know?

I was just going to say, Tommy, like, I was, you know, for a guy who demagogues the West, and he really has moved in that direction, and he, who, a guy who was in Russia, like right as the invasion was beginning, meeting with the, Vapun, the chances that that guy is going to be where I am right now in London in a few weeks is not, not zero, right? you know, I just, and I think you're right, the Pakistani military, for all of its obvious orientation towards China and some of their hostile to the West, they do like to have kind of optionality and some degree of room for maneuver. And so the interesting thing to watch is how some of this criticism of Khan from people who are sincerely concerned about as any democratic behavior merges with the military calculation. And then whether that leads the military to want to dump con overboard or leads them to back him, you know, that's ultimately where, tragically, that's where this is most likely to be

decided rather than through real democratic means. Yeah. So we'll watch this one closely over the next week or two and probably do more next week's show. The other place we're watching closely is Sri Lanka because, you know, a combination of economic mismanagement by the president. inflation, food shortages, energy blackouts, are, you know, have led to a situation where protesters are on the verge of toppling the Sri Lankan government.

The president, Rajapaksa, his cabinet, resigned en masse on Sunday in response to these massive protests. You know, it doesn't seem like that was a real resignation. It seems like these protesters, it seems like the cabinet members are basically being reshuffled and you're seeing like the, you know, the interior minister becomes the finance minister, you know, like silly moves like that. one of them already resigned. 41 members of parliament quit the governing coalition on Tuesday.

So Roger Pox's decision back in the day a couple of years ago to cut taxes has led to a credit downgrade that led to a debt crisis for Sri Lanka. That combined with COVID-related drops in tourism just hit their economy really hard and people are really struggling. It seems like they won't have enough foreign currency pretty soon. Again, we're going to get into this more next week. I don't want to combine these issues with too broad of a brush here because clearly there are some very specific mistakes in terms of economic management and governance that have led to this outcome.

But I do worry about just seeing more and more stories like this where there's inflation and economic hardship because of COVID, because of all the supply chain issues that we're dealing with here, because of oil and gas shortages, because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine that could lead to political instability. So one we will watch closely. Yeah, and the only thing I'd add is that like Sri Lanka, you know, coming out of that, the civil war that ended in the kind of really decisive and troubling and execution, obviously, a defeat of the Tamil insurgency there. You know, over the last 2009, 2010. Yeah, it was beginning of our, you know, Obama administration.

Obama administration, 10, it's kind of veered back and forth between a time. looking like it was drifting to kind of autocracy. Then there was kind of a democratic opening that looked very promising and then it drifted back in the other direction. And so it's kind of a, you put it in the right context on me. It's kind of this bellwether, right? Of like if you're like this, you know, developing democracy, you know, which way are the global winds blowing, you know? And right now, because of the democratic recession combined with all the headwinds, around inflationary pressures and the inequality inside of countries like, you know, it feels like those things are moving the wrong direction. And then also in that region, right? You know,

we just talked about Pakistan. We've talked about India before and the direction is going in, which is not the democratic direction. And Sri Lanka, you do worry about, you know, is democracy and kind of rules-based rule of law, resolution of political crises, you just want to make sure that that maintains a foothold to weather these storms, right? And I think that's the kind of thing to watch in these types of political crises in all these places. Yeah, yeah, agreed. Okay, this is what counts for a good news story today, Ben, and I'm sorry, it's been so dark. So the United Nations brokered a two-month ceasefire in Yemen that started.

started on Saturday. That ceasefire has allowed aid relief to get in, oil shipments to reach critical ports for the first time in, I think, nearly three months. That lack of oil or fuel has been one of the key drivers of starvation because, you know, you can't deliver food to people who are outside of major cities. I think everyone is holding their breath and hoping that this ceasefire holds because it would be the most important step towards peace in, I think, six years. The goal, you know, in the short term is to get this humanitarian relief to people. The goal in the long term is to push for full peace talks. I don't know, Ben, I really want to see this work. I'm hopeful. I saw Congressman Brokana today, I think, was on the hill pushing the

Secretary of Defense to make sure the U.S. reacts if the Saudis violate the ceasefire, not just if the Houthi rebels, who they've been fighting for the last, you know, 10 years or so, violate the ceasefire. But I'm just curious how you're feeling about this ceasefire and how hopeful you are that it could sort of lead to a set of talks that get to us to a peaceful resolution of the fighting. I mean, you know, you take any hope you can get in the circumstance like Yemen where there's been such horrific suffering. And it's Ramadan. And so you hope that this season can kind of create a space for a more lasting ceasefire that can lead. to real talks. Notably, this came after, like, a lot of consultations, right? Like, we talked about, I think on the last show, you know, all the different Arab leaders getting, you know, there's

kind of a flurry of meetings in the Middle East. Tony Blinken was there. So my hope is that this represents, like, a real momentum in the direction of what can become a political process. The problem in the past has been when there have been sporadic ceasefires, they don't lead to any real dialogue or process and then, you know, any event can trigger an unraveling of the ceasefire, right? By either side, as Rokhanna points out, like the Houthis or the Saudis and their coalition, I'd like the U.S. to put on the table, like, that we won't support in any way a resumption of hostilities from the Saudi side, and that includes providing any... That would be good.

That would be... We have some leverage here, right? We obviously, you know, we've all learned you can't tell the Saudis what to do, but like, we can't tell them that we won't provide them any military support whatsoever for a resumption of hostilities in Yemen. That might be one way to make this stick. So, you know, that kind of, that kind of solution has to be on the table too here, where the U.S. is actually really kind of bringing some weight to bear and trying to turn this into a lasting peace. I'm sure that the regional dynamic will also factor in whether there is an Iran deal, right? Which we've been on the precipice

of an Iran return to the Iran nuclear deal for a while. I think some of the anxiety. Yeah, and some of the anxieties in the Gulf have always been. Well, is that some pivot from the U.S. to Iran? And no, it's not. Like, that's about the nuclear issue. And it's not about Yemen. Like, these things, unfortunately all get conflated.

And, but again, I think, like, there's been so much suffering in Yemen. Nobody's going to win that war, right? The Houthis are not going to win that war decisively in the Saudis. Like, we have learned that. So the choices between just protracted conflict that kills more and more innocent people for no reason or just making a ceasefire stick and actually having some political negotiation, which everybody accepts that they're going to get less than everything they want. And I think everything has to be about it being the latter outcome.

Yeah, I mean, the Saudis are already given us the finger when it comes to demanding more production. Yeah, I don't know why. just put the squeeze on them in this war. Two more quick things, Ben. So the Senate finally reached a deal to provide another $10 billion in COVID assistance. Notably, for this show's purposes, they cut $5 billion in funding for global aid. So the good news is it includes $9.25 billion for biomedical research, another $5 billion to purchase therapeutic COVID treatments like antivirals.

All this money is going to come from unspent funds left over from previous COVID relief bills. but it's so stupid and short-sighted that they would cut this global vaccination funding. I mean, the White House is clearly pissed. It sounds like Schumer is going to try to pass more international COVID relief funding later this year. Maybe he'll attach it to a Ukraine aid bill, and that would be a good way to get it through. But the White House announced they're sending vaccine doses for kids age 5 to 11 to low and middle-income countries today. So the White House is trying to get some of this international aid out there. It just seems like Congress is making it hard.

This is the dumbest fucking thing. I can't even believe we're having this conversation. We've had Samantha Power on the show. Like the shots in arms in other countries is directly related to this funding. And if you cut the funding, it's less shots in arms because the United States is the only country that's really out there at scale with the capacity to do this. This is dumb and reckless and idiotic on every level. It's immoral and inhumane that the United States as the most capable and richest country in the world is not doing more. And not because of the people like Samantha, but because of these freaking morons in Congress to get shots and arms in other countries.

But it's also going to prolong the pandemic. Like, Tommy, I am not one of these people who is an armature epidemiologist, right? beyond like... No, me either. I mostly hate them on Twitter. I know. I don't tweet about this because I know what I don't know. But like, here's what I do know

because anybody with two eyes and a brain has seen this the last year. If this thing rages unchecked around the world, you're going to get more likelihood of variant after variant that comes in here and fucks our shit up, right? So if you don't even care about people in other countries and I wish you did, I wish people in Congress did,

but they don't seem to unless they live in like two or three countries. Like, if you don't care about those people, like, this is so manifestly also a matter of self-interest to do this. Shame on Congress. I wish you were wearing your call Congress shirt. This is the, this is moronic to the extreme, immoral to the extreme. Every dollar spent on international vaccination is a dollar that protects us, enhances our

standing and does the basic humane minimum that we should be doing. So come on, get your act together. And yes, Chuck Schumer, like, find ways to attach this to must pass spending bills, whether it's Ukraine, whatever the other thing is that members of Congress love to put it with Iron Dome. Maybe we can have an Iron Dome. There you go. A gazillion dollars for Iron Dome to Israel with like a big chunk of COVID funding. And then they'll vote for it maybe. I don't know, right? Like, whatever it takes, just get it done. That's creative. Yeah, just don't make me lock down in my house for another two years.

I don't think I can do it again. Okay, Congress, learn your lesson. We're going to take quick break. And when we come back, you will hear my interview with Anastasia Lapitna, who's a reporter for the Kiev Independent, who's going to talk about what it's like to live in Ukraine and report from Ukraine in the middle of this war. So stick around for that. On the line is Anastasia Lapitna, who's a reporter for the Kiev Independent, who is currently

reporting from Aviv. Thank you so much for joining the show. Of course. Thank you for having me. I, first of all, I want to say that I follow you on Twitter. Everyone else should too. It's at L-A-T-I-N-A underscore because you are reporting in real-time, not just about what's happening in Ukraine, but about your experience of it as someone who is living through this experience

and also being a reporter. And so I just want to sort of start there. You know, the images and stories we saw this weekend at Abuca are horrifying. It's clear that Russian forces are committing war crimes. You know, what is this like for you? You're covering this and experiencing in such a personal way. You've tweeted about the impact of the war on your mom and on your home and family. Can you tell us a little bit about what that's like?

Yeah, of course. It's been extremely weird to try to combine that with my journalism because at the end of the day, you know, you kind of think like, oh, am I? am I being too biased? Am I being too emotional? Should I be more, you know, more behind all of this and kind of more cold about it? But it is impossible because this is my country and it is my home that's being affected and it's my family, you know, the houses that I've grown up in and everything else. So it's actually been, well, I'm not going to surprise anyone if I say that it's been pretty much hell living through this war. We're at day 40, I believe, today.

which is surreal to say even because, you know, I keep on joking that my birthday is coming up in May. I hope they're going to wrap it up and I can go home and celebrate in Kiev. You do. And I genuinely wish that I can do that. But yeah, I just, the reason why I, you know, tweet so much about it and spread this message, you know, that this is my house, this is my apartment, this is someone I know, is because, as cliché as that may sound, These are human stories that I think are extremely important. And I think, you know, the longer this goes on, the more people are going to get desensitized to hearing about these things.

And I really want to prevent people not to be that. And I really want to prevent that from happening. So I think it's just extremely important to understand that, first of all, that I think there is this fundamental gap in understanding war and conflict and politics and politics and, you know, the effect of everything that we're going through between someone who has never gone through it. That may sound obvious. But I think it's impossible to fill that gap.

No matter how much you read the books, no matter how much you watch the documentary, you talk to people from the Middle East to Africa, anywhere else, it's just impossible. Because, you know, I've been obviously political junkie my whole life. I've followed in all sorts of conflicts. I have friends in Syria. I have friends in Iraq. I have friends in Palestine. And until this war began, I really thought I, in a way, got what they're going through.

I thought that, you know, I tried as hard as I could to be empathetic, to understand what's going on, to hear their voices. But the second, it was my city that was getting bombed, and the second that it was my people who were being killed. And the second it was my country where a genocide was committed. my understanding of that just skyrocketed, you know, and I am actually in touch, you know, with all of my friends, you know, as I said, in Syria and Iraq constantly because I feel like there is no one else other than Ukrainians and people who have gone through the same thing can actually, you know, understand me and understand what I'm going through. And I remember any time I see activists, you know, Palestinian activists or any other activist, you know, being what people would call radical or, you know, posting these images of dead kids and being like,

look, the West, this is what you're doing. I'd always be like, oof, you know, like, guys, you know, like, we get it, but, you know, come on. Whereas now, like, that's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah. Because I think that now it, now it, now it makes sense to me. Now I see that, you know, when I say that kids here are getting slaughtered and bureaucrats in Europe are thinking whether, should we press for this one more sanction or should we not press for it because, you know, that can backfire in 10 years. Like, as a Ukrainian, that is just ludicrous to me. So, you know, as a Ukrainian, I have this huge increase in understanding and empathy towards people all over the world who feel the same frustration as I do. And it's just been

very interesting to see and watch, you know, myself go through that. Yeah, I mean, it's such an important and thoughtful point. I mean, what does bias even mean in this context? Right. I mean, I obviously, like, I'm zooming with you from America, a country that massively fucked up the reporting and fact checking in the run up to the invasion in Iraq and did something catastrophically bad for the world. But in the case of Russia and Ukraine, one side invaded the other.

It's Ukrainian civilians who were seeing images of, you know, bound and killed in the streets. You know, you tweeted something the other day where parents were writing their contact information on the backs of children, I'm just not sure how you can't react emotionally or feel biased in that situation. Yeah, and I was very surprised in a way to see the response to that tweet because that's one of my most viral tweets ever.

And the people who have been retweeting it and continue retweeting it are German MPs and European politicians and American reporters from Fox. you know, and I'm seeing all of that and I'm like, really, guys? I mean, I almost kind of want to tweet back and be like, thank you so much for tweeting and saying how you're heartbroken and how you're reminiscing that this could be your child.

But could you actually go and do your part in stopping this? Because you guys can, you know? Because to this tweet specifically, you know, like I watch my mentions generally and this tweet has just been blown up exactly in those circles. It's politicians. it's journalists, it's high-level people who have influence and I'm just so glad seeing that it's getting there.

I'm so glad that I just posted this image that may have, it's probably not shocking to Ukrainians. This is just our everyday life. I've interviewed people who had to write the blood type of their children or on their arms. Like I've seen those arms, I've seen those photos, I've spoken to these people. To me, this is just, yeah,

if there is a war, you have to take a precaution. But seeing everyone's so shocked, I, you know, I'm glad that it's getting out there and people are seeing that this is just our reality. Yeah. You know, so these horrifying images and the atrocities that we're learning about in places like Bucha, is that changing how Ukrainians feel about the peace talks that we're hearing about happening in Istanbul between the Ukrainian and the Russian sides? Yes, I think that what happened in Bucha certainly in a way changed both the national mood and the international mood as well. You know, we see states pressing for more sanctions. We see the EU being, you know, more kind of acting in a more severe way now with its rhetoric and with its sanctions as well in response to what happened because what it was is it was a genocide. I mean, you have hundreds of people killed and that's from what we saw, you know, journalists who were there today, who were there yesterday, say that, guys, it's not in the hundreds.

It can be even in the thousands because, you know, there has. have been, it's been a few days since we've really seen what happened. And there are dead people in like every other apartment, in every other yard, just civilians slaughtered. And many of them, literally with their hands tied behind their backs. And many of them are children. Some children are raped. I mean, what is it if it's not a genocide, you know? So yes, there's definitely a shift of mood. And I watched a press conference today. I think the press conference itself happened yesterday. I may be wrong. But it was basically like a like a round. table with many Ukrainian journalists posing questions to Zelensky to our president. And one of them

asked, considering, you know, what happened in Bucha, are the talks going, you know, business as usual? Or is there any shift? So it's clear that there is this public demand for a shift. It's clear that people are wondering whether, you know, whether we're going to respond in some way, whether some approach is going to be different. But, you know, we are dealing with Putin. So it's, it's, it's, It's, it's, as Zelensky actually said in that response to this journalist, is like, we will not be able to get everything we want. Because that's not how negotiations work, and especially not how negotiations with Russia work. It's just impossible. And he, he, and he, you know, repeated himself multiple times.

He just said it's impossible. We can't just get everything. You know, we can't just have a ceasefire, get into NATO, get into a EU, return Crimea, turn to bus and live as, as this never happened. Like, that's just not going to happen. But it's clear that people want to shift in narrative and actions, yes. You mentioned these German politicians retweeting you. I mean, there's reports today that in the wake of what we've seen in Bucha, that Germany is expelling Russian diplomats.

There's talk of more sanctions, but not much else. I mean, what more do you think people want to see from the West in NATO after seeing these images? Definitely, you know, more sanctions. and sanctions that, you know, target what should be targeted. I had a conversation with actually a Russian guy. He's not like a friend. He's just someone. I know he's just a public figure.

And it turned out that he followed me on social media. And he posted something about the war that I disagreed with. And I responded to him and he responded back to me. And we ended up having a conversation. And that was very interesting because he's this, you know, typical Russian liberal, lives in the U.S., opposes the war, et cetera, et cetera. And even he himself said that, you know, you block Airbnb to Russian citizens, you take out McDonald's, but then there are still a bunch of companies, for example, oil infrastructure companies. So not the companies that are actually involved in extracting oil and gas and whatever, but the ones that sustain everything else after you've extracted it.

So no one is talking about those companies. Those companies continue functioning business is normal, you know, and those are the companies that should be targeted and people should be talking about it. but everyone cares, you know, about McDonald's and, and, you know, other regular stores, which, of course, I do as well. You know, I enjoy seeing all of these sanctions because I think people should be punished. But at the same time, there are more targeted sanctions that should be pressed. And the second thing is we just need all the weapons that they can possibly give us. And the Kiev Independent just released an op-ed today saying that Ukraine should be able to just,

ask for weapons and receive it immediately at this point, you know, because it is actually kind of ridiculous that's not already happening with, you know, the pictures we're seeing from Boucher, with what's happening in Mariupal. I mean, the city like no longer exists. I don't know how many pictures I have to like continue tweeting and how many people have to get out of that hell and, you know, and give interviews for people to understand what's happening there. because there is not a single building in Mariupal that hasn't been damaged or completely destroyed, not a single one. I mean, they raised it to the ground.

And we're still having discussions about whether a particular type of plane, you know, is admissible, about whether, you know, we can have offensive weapons? Can someone explain to me? I mean, Tommy, you're much smarter than me. Can you explain to me what is an offensive weapon as opposed to a defensive weapon? What is an inherently defensive weapon that we can give, that we can't use in an attack. Yeah.

I don't know. Exactly. I mean, I've, exactly. Like, I've Googled it a few times because I was like, everyone keeps talking about it, but what are these things, you know? So it's crazy to me that there are still these discussions on whether this type of weapon can be shipped to Ukraine. We need all of them.

Whatever we ask for you, we should be getting because there's genocide happening. There's a slaughter of innocent civilians, thousands and thousands of them. There shouldn't be a discussion. And I don't think that's radical. I think that's just necessary. No, it doesn't seem radical. I worry that these discussions are getting wrapped around questions of legality that are when I think sort of a practical matter, it's like if a country is being invaded,

what they're doing to repel an invader seems inherently defensive to me. So therefore, I would give the S-300s or the Migs or all these systems that are asked for. I'm just like not really sure how NATO or the U.S. is drawing these lines. They feel a little bit arbitrary to me. I you know it seems like these unmanned aerial systems the drones the Turkish drones that have been very effective would be very useful yes there's the the American single-use drones that went over recently those seem very useful I would I hope that they would not make it so difficult to get those systems into Ukraine at this point it because it's just you know there was this whole talk about you know close the sky close the sky and there were protests all over the world you know there were speeches there was very dramatic speeches there was very dramatic speeches by Zelensky, now everyone kind of dropped that because we just realized that the West isn't going to do it. And we were like, okay, guys, sure, if you're saying no to this, we're going to back off. And there's still a discussion about whether they can send us something. I'm genuinely

surprised, you know, we already, we already said no to one thing. Now what we're asking is just give us something to stop our people from getting killed, you know. I don't think there should be discussion. Yeah, I'm with you. You know, one last question. I mean, what do you make of these reports that, you know, you have all of these Ukrainian citizens who have friends or relatives in Russia who they are reaching out to and saying this is what's happening to us, look at the reports, look at this article, and these Russian citizens just don't believe what they're saying. They think it's all propaganda. Are you hearing those sort of anecdotes in your personal life as well? Of course. I mean, it's everyone in my own family.

well. My dad's side of the family were not very close with them because I've never actually been to Russia. I've never seen them. They're just distant family. But yeah, they, you know, they sent us a text message saying, you know, we hope there's going to be peace soon. And, you know, like some vague shit that wasn't actually helpful to me or my mom. My best friend, she's half Ukrainian, half-Russian, her side of the family in Russia are just completely like, for the longest time, they didn't even reach out to them, you know, like to her father. And now they're just pretending like, you know, like they have nothing to do with it. They're just kind of like, oh, but it's not Russia. It's everywhere. I, you know, it is literally everywhere. And I think

it's, of course, incredibly sad. But it also pushes against the narrative that is just Putin. and that's a very big thing in, you know, of course, Ukrainian society right now, that we're trying to show to people that it isn't Putin who's giving orders to rape children. Right. It isn't Putin who is flying those planes. And when you have the Ukrainian government saying that, guys, you can come up with your hands in the air, you can surrender, we're going to give you money, we're going to give you amnesty, we're going to let you call your mom, and then after this is over, you can just go home.

You know, when we spread that message, when, you know, you've seen all of these pictures of, of soldiers surrendering. And Ukrainians not putting a single finger on them, you know, like we're literally give them tea and cigarettes. You know, when this is the environment that they're in and they still decide to go into my family's house, steal a bunch of shit, including my mom's shoes. What the hell do they need my mom's shoes for, you know? Or like female underwear. Like, there are photos of streets full of like female underwear because it's, you know, they were like running away, you know, they just dropped all of it. Like, what, what has to go through her mind to do that? And so those are not Putin's orders. Those are Russians who are, you know,

who are doing this on purpose. And that goes for, you know, all of our family members who, you know, you're sitting in a bomb shelter and you're sending them audio messages, videos of you getting bombed and they're telling you that it's the Nazis, Ukrainian Nazis who don't exist, you know. It's just completely crazy. Just, yeah, propagate. I agree with you. I mean, there's definitely propaganda, the brainwashing, whatever's happening, but also, you're right. I mean, no one is telling an average soldier to loot a home of a civilian on the way out the door. I mean, that's a personal choice. Last question, I promise. Any final thoughts or messages for, you know, a mostly American audience about what's happening and what they can do to help and try to, you know,

push for more support for Ukraine? Well, I think what we all really need is just more financial support and whoever is able to help financially should do that. There are plenty of websites, plenty of organizations. Our civil society made it as easy as possible for you guys in the West to find where to put your money in. So, you know, Googling it shouldn't be too difficult. And also just realizing that this isn't just about Ukraine or this isn't just about Russia. This is like genuinely about the free world and about Europe and about the world.

the entire political system that we've known to be a thing since the last few decades, you know. So this isn't some, you know, although I'm not comparing the suffering or the destruction. But this isn't something very, very far off that you can just ignore. Because, you know, when I was in Poland, multiple people told me that Polish people, that the reason why they're helping so much is that they very clearly understand that they're going to be next. Putin isn't just stopping in Ukraine, you know, Putin is not going to stop. you know, if he isn't stopped. So people just have to realize that this is going to come to them.

This is going to come to Europe. So, you know, you guys should just do everything possible to support us. And we're going to try to do everything possible to protect us and you as well in Europe. Well, listen, and Estia, thank you so much for talking with us today. Of course. Thank you for inviting me. Nightmare. Hopefully it ends soon.

Hopefully it ends by your birthday, if not a hell of a lot earlier. Because you deserve that. May 14th. Yes. Fingers crossed. All right, fingers crossed. Thank you. Of course. Thanks again to Anastasia for joining the show.

Ben, thanks to you for staying up late London time. How's the time zone treating you now? You know, you get older and like this gets harder. I used to like bounce out of bed, you know? I'm like finding myself like napping, you know, in the late afternoon. But I have to say like we will have to cover the World Cup draw at some point. I'm here in the UK, I'm here in England. And obviously, we've got England, Ireland, and potentially Ukraine, but maybe scholarly

or Wales in our draw. That's a world-o draw, if I've ever heard of one, right? So, like, we could do a whole show on that, you know? That's a good one. That is a good draw. I also saw that BBC report that two stolen notebooks written by Charles Darwin were mysteriously returned to Cambridge University, 22 years after they were taking. I noticed that curiously overlapped with your trip.

Do you have any comment? Got nothing to say about that, Tommy. Nothing, nothing at all. Nothing to say about that or the Tory MP that was, you know, like in the headlines when I landed here. The Coke Party. You were famously anti-evolution, anti-c cocaine. I think that's it for the day. It's like midnight your time, so thanks for doing it.

And I don't know, talk to guys next week. See it. Potsie of the World is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producer is Haley Muse. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seiglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Saul Rubin for production.

support and to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montuth, who upload our episodes as videos at YouTube.com slash crooked media.