Pod Save the World - World Corrupt Episode 4: The Dark Side of the 2022 World Cup

Episode Date: October 29, 2022

Tommy and Roger consider the complexities and deadly consequences of Qatar hosting the World Cup. You’ll hear from human rights activists and experts about what life is like in Qatar for migrant workers, and from Norwegian FIFA president Lise Klaveness and pro footballers Megan Rapinoe and Tim Sparv about the power of sports activism in the fight for justice.

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Go right now to Tommyjohn.com slash world. See site for details. Tweed on these are chafing. We have something like 1.2 million fans expected to visit Qatad. What happens for LGBT people who are visiting? Are they going to be safe? The regret of not saying anything is what is going to kill you and what's going to eat you alive. Welcome back to World Corrupt.

This is our fourth episode back in the studio. Roger, good to see you. Oh, Thomas, you and me, like a geopolitical burr and footballing, Ernie. It's so good to see you, you gorgeous human being. Men and Blazers, Roger Bennett. We're doing kind of a buddy comedy thing now, or you turn it to my hooch. I suspect, as our listeners are already completely abundantly aware by now, I think we're projecting more of a dumb and dumber five.

I have to legally say this, so you're saying there's a chance. So here we are for the fourth installment of our six-part podcast series that explores the 2022 World Cup, the corruption and how it was awarded the absurdity of having a host country with no infrastructure and dangerously hot weather and a human rights record that goes against all the values that FIFA claims to hold dear. But are you ready for some football? Football washes. Oh, the pain away though, Tommy. It's a Monday night party.

Woo-woo. Different football, Raj. but whether we are ready to confront it or not, the tournament is coming. It is speeding towards us like a Roger Clemens fastball during the peak steroid era. Mixed metaphors, be damned for just 22 days away. If this is your first time listening to this podcast,

we should say, welcome, Frendo. We've been expecting you. Welcome indeed. But we would encourage you to go back to the source of this Sonic River, aka the first three episodes. So you get all the history, all the context, all the dad jokes that got a lot of. to this point. Oh, FIFA, global soccer's governing body transformed, really from lovable

startup to Facebook like behemoth. That'll stop at nothing to line its pockets. Even if your aunt runs off with the Q&on shaman, Mark Zuckerberg, another guy I think would make an excellent FIFA president one day. Oh, Tommy, stop trying to make me miss, set blatter. Sorry. Okay, in this episode, Raj, we're going to take a deeper look at what has happened since the Qataris won the bid to host this World Cup way back in 2010. We're going to talk about the political climate in this desert petro state, how the country treats women, the LGBTQ community, and its migrant workers. A reported 6,500 of whom have died since Setbladder announced this World Cup was headed to Qatar. We're also going to hear from footballers and not just any footballers. We've got two-time

World Cup champion and Presidential Medal of Freedom winner Meg and Rapino. We'll talk to us about the courage it does take to speak out when, So much of the world is calling on you to, you know, shut up and dribble. Wouldn't it be shut up and keep yuppie? But anyway, finally, Raj, we'll hear from a FIFA executive who stuck her head in the mouth of the lion that is FIFA and why she says she's been looking over her shoulder ever since. So here we go, Raj. Episode four. Mouth of a lion.

What are we? Seek for the Roy now. Vamos. For 2018 and 2022, we go to new lands. That creepy old voice may sound just like a South Park character that you're now racking your brain to remember who it is, but it's actually an old friend to listen to this show and I'm using the word friend incredibly loosely.

The aforementioned FIFA president, Sep latter, opening his big gob again back in 2010 when he boasted about how the World Cup would head to the Middle East for the first time with the zeal and obtuseness. if someone that's still the virtues of manifest destiny. If there's one thing I've learned from doing this podcast,

it's that where set bladder goes, bags of cash and trouble follow. I love that image, just blowing bags of cash, just a trail. Leave me behind me, what corruption are those bags of cash? Oh, who knows?

But if you've learned the blatter is a Batman-style baddie, I've learned to our journey this far, that Qatar is, let's just say, politically, deeply problematic. And today, we want to gain an understanding of what life there is really like. To do so, we brought in another friend to really drill down on that topic. And we mean the word friend, honestly, this.

Hi, my name is Michael Page. I'm the deputy director in the Middle East Division at Human Rights Watch. That's Michael Page. Somewhere, I think, between Marcel Proust and Matthew Perry, in terms of all-time great MPs. I did not know that Chandler from Friends was an MP, but, you know, learn something every day. Michael, though, is one of several experts you'll hear from in this episode.

He works at Human Rights Watch, an amazing organization that investigates and reports on human rights abuses all over the globe. Later, we'll hear from Nick McGeehan, who works for an organization called Fair Square, which focuses on human rights, specifically workers' rights. I sat down with Michael in New York City back in August and started by asking him some basic questions about life in Qatar. Qatar certainly is a non-democratic state. It has serious abuses, and that spans a spectrum. And I think it goes everything from migrant rights, women's rights, LGBT rights, freedom of expression. All those are major problems. Women can't pass on nationality to their children.

Unmarried women under the age of 25 need permission to travel abroad. You need male guardianship permission to marry who you want to marry. a letter of the law in which, in general, same-sex relations, punishable by up to seven years in prison. And I think there's serious concern as well because we have something like 1.2 million fans expected to visit Qatar. What happens for LGBT people who are visiting? Are they going to be safe? When we heard set blatter say Newlands earlier, what did not realize he meant was, we headed right back to the 1600s. Given how Qatar treats the migrant laborers who make up about 95% of their labor force.

That description is spot on. Some real feudalism vibes there. Here's Michael again. If you want to host a World Cup, you need to build stadiums, but you also need to build a lot more hotels. You need to expand your airport. You need to expand your metro rail. Over the past decade plus,

migrant workers have been essential building and preparing for these games. And they have this Kefala system that makes it very difficult for workers even to escape abuse. I think the 101 on the Kefala system, it's an Arabic words, it means a sponsorship system that just gives disproportionate power to your employer, right? So your employer has an incredible amount of control over your entry into the country, your working hours, your ability to leave your job, right? And it is often compared or said a contemporary form of slavery. It's a nightmare scenario in which you have lost all power. they're already in debt, and then they're not able to pay it off. The point Michael's making there is about debt, and it's an important one, Raj,

because even though we are talking about brutal, exploitative working conditions, these migrant laborers often have to pay to get these jobs in the first place. Here's Nick McGeehan from Fair Square. They've been vast sums of money. The recruitment fees that Bangladeshis pay would be up to $4,000. It's insane, and they pawn off their land, they sell their jewelry, they take loans from local loan sharks, because the Gulf of, the dream because some people do make it.

We can of course understand chasing the dream and doing everything it takes to lift your family out of poverty. But the sad reality is these stories, they often end in tragedy. Here's Michael again. They're sometimes working in incredibly dangerous conditions. Like it's 122 degrees Fahrenheit, you know, and cut it. I mean, even people

who are in like good health, it is a toll on your body. And I think what we've learned is how much heat can affect the human body, including kidney failure, heart attacks, death. That has been one of the major issues with migrant workers that are working in Kutte, in which there have been thousands of unexplained deaths during this period in which the World Cup

has been prepared for and built, and there's not been accountability, and there's also not been any kind of compensation for the people who have lost their loved ones might be in debt, have lost the ability to, send their children to school. And so it's just a horrible tragedy, but it's also such a serious abuse. It goes back to the question of why is FIFA not responsible for doing something about it?

And there you have it, Raj. Essentially the main reason we are having this conversation and we are doing this podcast, it reported 6,500 migrant workers have died since the World Cup was awarded to Qatar. Now, we've mentioned this report, which was originally in The Guardian in England, a few times It was seismic when it broke back in February 2021. And the article included the quote, more than 6,500 migrant workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have died in Qatar since it won the right to host a World Cup. And we should note the Qatar government has pushed back hard on this story

saying that these deaths can't specifically be attributed to the building of the World Cup infrastructure. But that, in an hour, of itself. It's part of the scandal. The Qatari government doesn't even collect the data. Here's Nick McGa'an, the gent from Fair Square again. The true scandal is that about 60% of those deaths are unexplained. Some people say it's high it's 69%. The rate of unexplained deaths in the US just now will be about 1%. The point Nick is making here is that in most well-resourced healthcare systems, less than 1% of deaths are categorised as unexplained. That number is increased in the US,

thanks to COVID, but the broader point still stands. Back to Nick. Can we say for sure how many workers died from negligence in Qatar related to the World Cup? Not really. But can we say that there was gross negligence on a grand scale? Absolutely. There's a compelling body of evidence to support that, and that's the scandal. And back in September of this year, journalist Nick Harris did a piece for the mail on Sunday, another British newspaper, where he dug into the official number of workers that Qatar's Supreme Committee claims have died. And I've got to say it's a lot of little farcicle, brace yourself, Tommy. It's the number three.

Three. Harris tweeted out that, quote, obfuscation, spin, and in some cases, plain falsehoods are being used to dupe these stats. But then Nick Harris proceeded to deliver this statistic that since 2011,

and this one, this one's truly awful, that foreigners in Qatar have killed themselves statistically at 79 times the rate of Qataris. There's just no right. that off as some sort of statistical anomaly. And it's worth noting that the Khafala system isn't just in Qatar.

It is happening in countries all across the Gulf, and it has its roots in an even more brutal system, colonialism. Here's Nick again. The Gulf Peninsula was the British colony, and the British controlled Bafrain, which at the time in 1930s was famous for pearl diving, as Qatar was, actually. That was the main source of income.

And they were bringing in a lot of Indian workers at the time, and the British colonial rulers wanted a way to control these workers. So they decided to make every worker responsible or beholden to a local sponsor or Kaffiel, as the word was. So they saw it as a great way of regulating labor, essentially subcontracting out the job of regulating these foreign workers to locals, the Bafranes. When the Gulf states eventually went through the 50s and 60s and Arab nationalism and they get their independence in the 60s and 70s, well, they held on to this labor system. They quite liked it. They thought, you know, hold on, this thing that was bequeathed to us by the British is actually a really good way of controlling this. foreign workforce. As if we needed to give our British listeners and I'm counting myself for this

part amongst them still, just another reason to feel a sense of shame. You're very welcome. Here's another one, Liz Truss. World Corrupt is brought to you by Athletic Greens. This is a product I use every morning to give myself a boost of energy. It doesn't taste like it's super healthy, Raj. It has a mild tropical taste that I actually look forward to. So what is this? What is this stuff? What is this magic? With one delicious scoop of AG1, you're absorbing. 75, high-quality, vitamins, minerals, whole-food-sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens to help you start your day. This special blend of ingredients supports your gut health, your nervous system, your immune

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What could possibly go wrong? Right now, it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition. It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day. That's it. No need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health to make it easy. Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one-year supply of immune-supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Travel packs. Be perfect for me, Jetsky. All you have to do is visit athletic greens.com slash world. Again, athletic greens.com slash world. Load up the jet ski, take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. I'm um... Raj, those abuses are why there is pressure on all of us to act. Those of us watching at home, people who travel to guitar and stay in hotels built and

staffed by migrant labor, or traveling on the metros that were constructed in 120-degree heat, but few will experience that pressure more acutely than the players on the field. We can only imagine the level of pressure that's already on these athletes' shoulders to perform. It's how they feed their families and almost all of the men and women I've ever interviewed did not start kicking a football and loving the game so that they could later use it as a platform to address and try right geopolitical wrongs.

But there are athletes, and thank goodness for this, who refuse to worship at the altar of professional sports preordained order and are willing to use their platforms to be a light in the darkness. And one of them just so happens to be a friend of both of ours. I mean, it's two of my favorite podcast in the whole world, men and blazers and crooked media with pod save. I mean, I'm in heaven here.

Hi, but frankly, unworthy praise there from an American footballing legend, Megan Rapino. She has won Olympic gold, two World Cups, and was literally named FIFA's women's player of the year in 2019. A human being who truly has it all, Tommy, except for good tasting podcasts, apparently. Raj, one of the reasons we both admire Megan so much is that she's one of those athletes who's had the courage to really try and affect change. Tommy, you know, I love a little bit of courage more than anything in life.

And just to remind our audience, for those who may not be aware, Megan Rapino has been willing to put herself out then, and she's done it because of a spotlight that was originally shone on her thanks to World Cup glory. And she's made the decision to use that platform and be a force of good.

Think back to September of 2016. It was shortly after NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick refused to stand for the national anthem in protest of police brutality and America's treatment of black people. Megan joined him. She was kneeling on the sidelines of an NWSL game saying at the time, quote, being a gay American, I know what it means to look at the flag and not have it protect all of your liberties. So we asked her about sports relationship with activism. I mean, sports is such an interesting. thing because it is oftentimes one of the drivers of progressive thoughts or quality, protests, pulse of the culture. But the actual infrastructure of sports is always a thousand years behind.

And I think particularly with soccer and particularly globally, I mean, obviously not necessarily with the teams that I've played on, but I think just in general, it's just a very old-school. conservative, massive, multi-billion-dollar industry that's controlled by a few people that have been historically, wildly corrupt. The culture around it is one of silence. So the need to speak up, it takes some courage. I think it does. I think it can be really stressful. I mean, it was definitely really stressful for me. You know, I was comfortable with it and it's what I wanted to do. But, you know, I think people do worry in a genuine way, like, what is this going to mean for your career? What is this going to mean for your sponsors?

And it's like, at the end of the day, I think we need to take a step back and say, what is most important? And like, go from that place because the sponsorships are not the most important or keeping everyone, quote unquote, happy or not rocking the boat. I think the most important thing is to do what you can with the point of life, which is to live it to its fullest. And then we asked Megan, a player, remember who stared FIFA president, Johnny Infantino, straight in the eye while accepting her two thousand.

2019 World Cup Winners Medal. That's only World Cup medal number two for all of you at home who are keeping score. Thank you, I was. Oh, I know you are at all times, Tommy. We asked for her opinion on the global body that governs football. FIFA is one of the most important entities and the most powerful entities in the world, full stop, whether that's political or governments or sport. And I've said this before that FIFA doesn't care because they don't.

And it's very clear what they do care about. If he finds about correctly making as much money as possible. Megan essentially summed up the first three and a half episodes of this podcast more eloquently than a fraction of the time. Damn, she's good. That is true. And sometimes the truth hurts. And it doesn't in this case. Because if you think that's good, dear listener, wait until they hear what Megan said when we asked her what message she'd like to send to the footballers heading to Qatar to compete in this World Cup.

I mean, I think I would say to them, like the regret of not saying. saying anything is what is going to kill you and what's going to eat you alive. This country and this sport, and especially this podcast, is so lucky to have Megan Rapino. What an American original. She is indeed. But look, Rod, bad news for all of us is Megan is not going to be at this World Cup. We're going to have to wait until next summer to watch her play when the back-to-back World Cup champs head to Australia in New Zealand. Oh, the Women's World Cup, or what we refer to.

Men and Blazers too as the real World Cup. That's right. But it's important to note, Megan's not alone in a willingness to delve into social issues and to talk about them publicly. And we went out to look for a footballer who confronted these complexities presented by Qatar directly. And to be honest, it wasn't easy, but we found him.

I am Tim Sparv, originally from Finland. I'm 35 years old. I stopped playing football six months ago. I was the Finnish national team captain for a number of years and that is definitely a big part of my identity. I love my country. I love representing my country. To be clear, Tim, he's what we call in football a journeyman.

He's played in England, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, lived out a 15-year career in some of Europe's top leagues. When I was young, I just didn't understand the impact that we can have in society as professional athletes. doing media, for example, that was just boring in my opinion. And very naive thinking, of course, you know, every time you have a microphone in front of you, you have a chance to speak to thousands of people, thousands of young people who listens to you. When I got maybe 24, 25, 26, I was a bit more mature. I was starting to think about, hey, what kind of role can I play in this? You know,

I want to do more than just play football games. I want to be more than just a footballer. I got to tell you, Raj, that there is a strong possibility that a 24-year-old me would have been very content just being a footballer. That sounds incredible, to be honest with you. Bight your arm off to just be a footballer. But Tim Spaff, East Baltic finished, Tommy, and those people love their saunas, their number one slot in the world happiness register, and also perpetually living on the moral high ground. But even this deeply intelligent and empathetic human being, even he wasn't totally in tune with the situation in Qatar until a teammate pointed out to him. Do I sense what they call in the film business an inciting incident, Raj?

Is this the first time that reading Save the Cat five years ago is actually going to come in handy? Exterior, Day, Finland, 2019. And Tim's teammate, Riku, Reiki, refused to travel to a winter training camp in the warm weather of Qatar. And he did say for ethical reasons. And now, Tommy, this is what they call in football circles. And I want to apologize for the technical term. I'm about to drop on you. It's a big effing deal.

I'll write that down. You can use it at will. This is a player refusing a call-up for his or her own national team on moral grounds. It simply doesn't happen. But that refusal sparked a significant reaction. For a number of years, we have been going to Qatar and Dubai and Abu Dhabi for training camps without actually questioning why we were going there. We could only see the fantastic football pitches, great facilities.

good hotels, nice weather, we were oblivious to what was actually going on around us. And for Rikuriski, going to Qatar, that was against his values, how they treat their migrant workers, for example, how they see women and women's role being a second-class citizen, in a way, how they see gay people, lesbian people. It's just against everything that he stood for. He wanted to make a point that this is not something he can support. He made us all think and it all ended up us not going there anymore for these training camps because these were training camps that we could influence ourselves.

We didn't have to go there in January. We could actually go somewhere else. The Finnish national team has not trained in Qatar since. Now, here's the bad news. We've got to point this out. A Finnish national team did not qualify for this World Cup. They fell to France on the final match day of Qaeda. qualifying, oh, always the French. And that prevented them from any chance of going through.

I think our audience should ignore what you just said and just buy Tim's jersey anyway. And you should all still do that, Tommy, because the Finnish jersey, it's trefetch, but that's an aside. Back to Tim. You did say dad jokes. For him, learning about what's happening in guitar, sparked a deeper curiosity inside of him. In the end, I thought the next step was actually having a conversation with migrant workers myself. I got to do that. The first time was through Zoom. And then after I finished my career, I actually had the chance to go to Qatar and meet them face to face. That was really powerful.

You've talked about how there was one meeting in particular with a female worker named Maggie who was working to organize the housekeepers. That was definitely the conversation that shook me. She spoke about sexual torture and living in an environment. where if you're getting abused and you run away, you still don't really have any rights. You're still stuck in a really, really awful place. They are incredibly strong.

A lot of them, they've been through a lot, things that we can't even realize, but they still get up every day and fight for their friends, fight for their colleagues. So it was powerful to be down there and listen to their stories. Tim, there's going to be several hundred players

representing their nations in Qatar. The night before they play their game, just imagine they're looking out of their hooters. window, the lights in the Rubikalae Desert expanse below, agonising about what they should do, whether they should do something, what should they say, whether they should say anything. What do you urge them to do in their hearts in that moment? They should definitely be proud of representing their country at the biggest stage. I would also urge them to think about who built those stadiums, who built those roads,

who built those hotels, and think about how. A football tournament has impacted thousands of lives and how it has impacted their families and what you can do to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Making sure that it doesn't happen again. That is the key. That's right, because we obviously can't turn back the clock and undo all the damage from this year's World Cup, but we can send a message to FIFA, to sport washers everywhere, that we are paying attention and we're not going to let this happen again.

Tim ultimately wrote a powerful article. We need to talk about Qatar when it ran in the Players Tribune and it made a lot of noise upon its release. But one of the ways to create real change, and you may know a little something about this, Tommy, is by putting the right people in positions of power. And up to this point in the podcast, we painted all of FIFA as craven, self-serving, pantomime villains,

twisting their moustaches and laughing, cackling evilly. But here's some news. Not every member of football's global governing body fits that description. Rod, you're saying that not every FIFA member has a apartment for their cats? Not all other than Tommy or at least, well, not Lisa Klavenas. I am Lisa. I'm the mother of three boys. I'm married to a woman called Ingrid.

I'm also the president of the Norwegian Football Federation and a former national team player. When you retired, you did what so many professional footballers do. you became a criminal lawyer and a judge. That is the track, you know. That's where we end up, everyone. By way of background, Tommy, Norway's Football Federation, it's one that's always tried to lead on the human rights issues. The Norwegian players wore T-shirts

before their opening 2022 World Cup Qualifier against Gibraltar that proclaimed human rights on and off the pitch. And the Federation actually debated long and hard about boycotting the tournament if they would have qualified. They just debated it. Sadly, it became a moot point and they didn't qualify. Oh, man. The good guys are not racking up a lot of wins in this podcast, Raj.

Oh, Tommy, that pains me. But remember, you are an Everton fan. That's right. You should have learned this fat long before the podcast. The good guys don't win. But enough about us. Back to Lisa, who was elected first as president of the Norwegian FAA back in March 2022. Unless in a month later, headed off to the 72nd FIFA Congress.

in Dohaar, which I've always liked to try and imagine as being like the Dundamifflin shareholders meeting, only more poorly run. But Lisa, she requested to speak at this Congress. It's a shiny, bobble of a gathering. It took a lot of guts to get on that stage, just steps from FIFA President Johnny Infantino and proceed to drop this truth bomb.

In 2010, World Cups were awarded by FIFA in unacceptable ways with unacceptable consequences. The migrant workers injured or families of those who died in the build-up to the World Cup must be cared for. There is no room for employers who do not secure the freedom and safety of World Cup workers. No room for leaders that cannot host the women's game. No room for hosts that cannot legally guarantee the safety and respect of LGBTQ plus people coming to this theater of dreams.

And the time to act is now. FIFA, all of us, must do what we are tasked to do, to lead, to have sustainable values govern every decision, truly implement transparency, zero tolerance towards corruption, accelerate the courage to put your own colleagues on blast in that moment, to their faces while the world is watching. That is simply remarkable. It got a standing ovation from everybody else, Raj, right?

Everyone was odd by her courage. I'll let you hear this from Lisa herself. My recollection was that it was just quiet. And not only was she met with silence, Tommy, but the very next speaker, a gentleman, Jorge Solomon, who some of your listeners will know as the president of the Honduran Football Association, he felt fit to go on stage, speak briefly and say, this is not the place to discuss such issues.

Ugh, gross. And then Hassan Altowadi, the Secretary General for Qatar 2020. He then got up on stage and essentially accused Lisa of failing to research the country's human rights record. Before I move on, I'd just like to express a disappointment. Madam President, visited our country and made no request for a meeting. Did not attempt to contact us and did not attempt to engage in dialogue before addressing Congress today. And that was a startling moment to me. As Qatar had been only defensive for a number of years in the run-up to the World Cup,

But this moment, though, was really setting a new note of really stepping in onto the front floor and just going on the attack. One we're going to talk more about in our next episode. But for now, let's keep the focus on Lisa here. Do you feel like you paid a price for this? Yeah, of course, in many situations, I'm a bit isolated. You know, before I did this, I would have a lot of conversation with people in the FIFA system, which I don't anymore.

But the biggest price, I think, is that I, you know, look over my shoulder, not physically, but mentally. There's some people at FIFA who won't engage with you after the speech even now. I don't think they would confirm this. Why should they talk to a Norwegian president? But before the speech, they did in very many regards. And after the speak, they really don't. The price is on very many levels, the emotional feeling of being exposed and my personal freedom when I travel, I think differently than I did before. The core thing I've learned is that if you're going to take high risk in something, you have to have a high inner reward. You know what I mean?

So this probably won't change anything. It's still worth it. It has its own value. I did not reflect upon the world watching this. I've never watched a Congress before. Who has, you know? But then I realized afterwards that the world did watch. So many has reached out to me.

Gay people in Argentina, women, female, sports journalists in Africa. These conversations alone makes it worth it. Lisa, tax gal du ha. Takska, braxie-do-ho. Varssevo. Amazing pronunciation. I won't be clear. On a personal tip,

we have so much admiration for Lisa on this podcast. So much admiration for Lisa in life. And in terms of the only way FIFA can possibly fix itself is via more people like Lisa Klavenus. By the way, Raj, look at you there. You're like soccer's Pete Buttigieg. firing off a little perfect Norwegian for no discernible reason, but still very impressive for everybody. Just a little side project TV. I'd actually feel a little inadequate after talking to all the guests on today's

pod. I did get a little carried away, got knee-deep stuck into the duo lingo. But just a quick shout out here for the Gentoo connect to this with Lisa, US soccer cult hero and Norwegian American, mixed discurrood. He's now plying his trade in Cyprus in the top flight. He's a great mate of He connected us to Lisa and we want to give him a producer credit on this project. Also, everyone on the show has much cooler names than us. But buck up, Raj, because next episode, we are going to get a chance to recalibrate our moral compass based on everything we've heard in these first four episodes. We've talked a lot about the history of sports washing in this show.

We've lifted up the floorboards and seen the moral decay that's eating house FIFA. We've also pondered why Qatar would even want the tournament. And next episode is something to make. move from talk to action. Time for some action. Are you talking about my favorite Red Man song? No, you are clearly not. You were talking about more talking to the microphones again. That is what we do here. You know, Tommy, what Edward Bullwillit and said in his historical play Caudel Richelieu back in 1839. Of course. The middling podcast is mightier than the sword.

A tale is old as time. But in episode five, we are going to really take stock of what we've learned and make a decision about what to do going forward. That's right, Tommy, how we will consume this World Cup and how we expect we might feel as we watch your heroes take the field in the stadia in this moment, the construction of which has taken a very real human toll. And look, I know that sounds a little heavy because, frankly, it is, but we have formulated a plan.

We are going to talk about what we and you, dear listener, can do to make sure that the families of the people harmed are compensated. We're also going to hear from activists, but how we can make sure we don't just keep these efforts going during the World Cup and then let it drop in the wake of the tournament. The goal here is real lasting change. It's been a hell of a journey through these first four podcasts. And I'm excited to, if not make a difference ourselves to help process all of this with our listeners so that they can work out what they want to do, both during this World Cup, and as they consume sports moving forward. Rod, you seem a little down today, buddy, so I'm going to give you a one word pump-up speech. Courage.

The name's not Roger anymore, Tommy. I'm actually changing it to mix for episode five. World Corrupt is an original podcast collaboration from Men and Blazers and Crooked Media's Pod Save the World. Alongside Roger Bennett, I'm your host, Tommy Vitor. The executive producers and writers of World Corrupt are me, Roger Bennett, my great friend Tommy Vitor and men in Blazers. Jonathan Williamson, who incredibly edited and sound design the episodes, a bit like Phil Collins drumming and singing at the very same time. A talented man.

From the crooked media side, our executive producers are Michael Martinez, Sandy Gerard, and Giancarlo Bizarro. Our producers are Ryan Wallerston and Haley Muse, and our associate producer is Saul Rubin. For Men and Blazers, our producers Miranda Davis and Martinez. This episode was fact-checked by Nehlymust. Nikki Schainer Bradford, music by Veselius Photopoulos. With editing assistance from Nick Furr-Short.

Additional production support from Crooked Media's Zuri Irvin, Kyle Segglin, and Ari Schwartz. And Men in Blazers mix discurude. Special thanks to Crooked Media's Julia Beach, Amelia Montuth, and Matt DeGroot. As well as Men in Blazers, Scott Debson, Michael Milberger, and Alex Sale for their promotional, social support and love.