Podcrushed - Alyson Stoner

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Alyson Stoner — multi-disciplinary entertainer, author, and founder & CEO of Movement Genius, a pioneering mental health company — opens up about the intense pressures of early fame, personal family challenges, and their transformative journey to healing. With decades of experience in Hollywood and a deep commitment to mental health education, Alyson shares powerful stories, practical tools, and compassionate insights to empower young performers navigating similar struggles.   And preorder our new book, Crushmore, here! Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here:  Instagram: @podcrushed TikTok: @podcrushed X: @podcrushed   You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here: Penn: Instagram, TikTok Sophie: Instagram, TikTok Nava: Instagram, TikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All of them, actually. You're the only one we thought who might not. So thank God. God to do it. Hey, I'm here to be the rule, not the exception. I'm here to uphold the status quo. That's actually probably the catchphrase of my 12th. 12-year-old self.

Here to please. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Sophie and I'm Nava and I think we would have been your middle school besties. Aspiring to be a television star who's aspiring to be a pop star who's aspiring to just be a normal gal. Good morning, good evening and good night. You are now a guest of Pod Crush and our entourage. I am Penn Badgley.

My co-hosts Sophie Ansari and Neva Kavelin are alongside me. You know, I think what we should do is we should just get right into Allison's intro because we got into such a far-reaching conversation. This was more like having an expert and a clinician on the show than it was a celebrity guest, although it is about celebrity. And it is about Allison's particular experience, having lived through the kind of ecosystem of Hollywood and fame. And Allison Stoner is an actor and an author now, possibly most famously a podcaster, Their podcast, Dear Hollywood, huge, huge one. Really can't recommend it more highly, especially because of my background having grown up in Hollywood

and alongside many others who did. They were also in Cheaper by the Dozen, you know, that's a big old iconic one. Many of you might recall, Camper Rock, similarly, Missy Elliott music video for Work It, Eminem's music video for Lose It, step up. I mean, the video game franchise, Kingdom Hearts, you know, it's kind of, it's just a long list like this. It was a really, really beautiful, far-reaching conversation, and I guess the premise for it, again, their book, where Allison explores everything from family violence and betrayal to eating disorders and religious trauma, not to mention all the Hollywood stuff.

So we had a lot to chat about. We loved speaking with them. Do not go anywhere. You know that we start at 12. However, you most certainly, more than any guest, your work, everything that you do now, in advocacy, in your book that's coming out, I mean, it is all about the abnormal circumstances you were experiencing at 12. So, and I actually want to share with you that, so as I said, I became a professional actor at 12 and I've never stopped. grew up in Hollywood the years 12 to 20 they happened to also align with the hardest of my life those years

and my first serious relationship of my teens a young woman who was a child actress since the age of 5 she actually died from the effects of alcohol after decades of alcohol abuse the first week of recording for podcrushed and and that is something that has always you can always rely on me to make something less funny and fun. And that's sort of, you know, some of my experiences such that, like, so, you know,

listening to your podcasts and other interviews you've done, reading your book, there's aspects of this. I just want you to know that are incredibly close to home. And so I think we don't just want to hear what daily life is like for you at 12. And forgive me for such a long preamble, but I think the gravity of your work and what you're here to sort of discuss, it warrants it. you know so you at 12 is not just you at 12 you at 12 you at 12 is a whole lot of things right so so give us as much as you as much as you see fit you know yes well thank you first for providing that context because that is incredibly helpful um for me to orient to the conversation and I do think I'm the only person in the world who hasn't listened to every episode of pod crushed so

I think it's probably true you should tell all the publicists that Well, when we were putting together the book campaign, every person in my small circle, an extended circle, said, oh, I sure hope you get to go on Pod Crush. Oh, that's wow. Specifically because they offered that you all have this very tender way of discussing formative experiences, but not shying away from things that are serious that do necessitate some pause and reflection. And so I'm here to meet you exactly in that space. I'm sure there will be a few laughs along the way, but certainly we're going to probably visit the full spectrum. So for those who are unfamiliar, I started performing at three years old, working professionally at six. I am considered a former child actor on Disney and Nickelodeon, et cetera.

And now I'm a mental health practitioner, among many other things. I founded a mental health company. we'll talk about that. And I host a podcast called Dear Hollywood. And most recently, I'm the author of semi-well-adjusted, despite literally everything. And I just have to say, I've been in a cave writing this for 14 years, so it's really nice to make human contact. But also, this process, you know, if you're going to try and string together every detail of your life into 90,000 words and make it cohesive somehow, you not only are reflecting on formative experiences, but there are a lot of decisions to make about how you're going to revisit that

memory. Is it through the lens of love? Is it through the lens of fear? Are you going to associate this with something else and choose that pattern? And that's going to be the message of the book. So I've been reflecting a lot on the stories, the cultural myths, the illusions that shape us at every age. And I just have to say, when I was writing three quarters of the way in to the first draft, I uncovered entirely new, different contradictory information about my childhood that I had never known. So it's an interesting time to be. The book is called semi-well adjusted for a reason. So taking us back to 12 years old, professionally at 12, let's see, I had been working on cheaper by the dozen.

I think I might have been just about to start Phineas and Ferb for Disney. I had been dancing in Missy Elliott music videos and with Eminem and Outkast and Will Smith as nine-year-olds and 10-year-olds do. And then personally, so I come from. a home that was pretty unstable addiction and abuse were prevalent. And actually at 12, I'm realizing that's the age where I was right on the cusp. Wow. I was right on the cusp of converting my life to the evangelical church and also on the cusp of falling into, you know, an eating disorder that would rock my world for many years. And both of those were attempts to counter this sense of chaos that I was experiencing

in the industry, you know, upholding 80-hour work weeks and having companies own your name and likeness and being the president of an S corporation, but you have no idea how any of this works while having the tumultuous experiences at home. And then everything happening in a 12-year-old's body. Everything's changing. I was a late bloomer, but it doesn't mean outwardly, but inwardly, you know, you're dealing with all the big feelings. So I would say it was a very, it was a very specific year that was about to catalyze. Eek. It's all in the book, too. You see it just becomes more and more complicated and dense. And I know I'm not the only person who felt that way as a young one. So that's Allison. And Allison at 12, high achiever, obsessive perfectionist.

you know, I wanted to, there was one other child actor who I deeply admired because she graduated high school at 14 and college at 18. And I said, well, if Ms. Kay Panne Baker can do that, shout out to Kay, then I must be able to do that and then some. And I'm sure Penn, you and I probably have the weirdest educational history. We can compare notes. I was in eight schools before eighth grade, you know, public, private charter, options for youth, independent study. Oh, wow. I forgot about options for youth. You can't forget about options. I was going to say, I think I'm always learning a new part of Penn's educational history. Like he'll mention something to a guest and say like, oh yeah, you know, well, when I was in high school, like, I thought you didn't go to high school.

there were 10 days where, you know, I was in, I didn't get to go to high school, but I did play a mild trick. It was a little bit of a fib, but in an attempt to have some semblance of normalcy before going into high school, you know, a lifelong athlete grew up in a family that plays every sport under the sun. And I convinced the coach of the basketball team at this new high school that I was going to be attending. Therefore, I could join the summer league. So I got to play varsity basketball in the summer league going into freshman year. And then I had to tell coach that I had to go make a movie. You know, and he wasn't going to lose sleep. I was one of the shortest people on the team. So. There's obviously so many places where we could jump in. But

I read your book. And there's so much in it. But for. some reason, and there's things that are more traumatic than what I'm about to describe, but there's one moment that I was just like, I just, it was like so much depressed. I had to put the book down, which is like you're nine years old. You've just turned nine. I think you end the chapter before this by saying, like, I had just turned nine, but my childhood was over. And you're like in this meeting where you now have 15 representatives, which like might seem like a great thing. Like I have all these opportunities, but it actually means that there's 15 adults who depend on me financially. So I have to like keep that in mind when I'm

making decisions to the degree that a nine year old who has 15 adults. who depend on her financially can make decisions. And they're having a conversation about whether or not Disney is good for you. And they're like projecting out until you're 18 years old. And like the nuances in that conversation and the way that you have no voice in that conversation and the way that they're like planning you to have like an edgy moment if you do. It's just the whole thing. And you're nine years old.

And I just, it was just such a crazy thing to think about like all the other child actors who also are in rooms and that that still may be happening. There was just so much. And I don't have a question there. but that moment stood out to me. So I guess let's go back even before 12. Like take us to nine-year-old, Allison.

Wow. Ooh, well, careful. It's going to get messier and messier the longer we go. So nine years old. I remember being in that room, actually, with my agent. And I had such admiration for her. And I, you know, saw the adults around me as respectable authority figures until proven otherwise. I didn't even know that you could question an adult's behavior, right? And at

nine, if we're talking about identity formation, you know, if you roll it back to six even, you're not really differentiating your experience of fantasy or reality. So that applies to six-year-olds, you know, playing make-believe with friends. It also means on set when you're auditioning and you're pretending to enact all kinds of material, whether intense or happy or somewhere between, there's, it's hard, there are blurred lines in that experience psychologically. Further, around six to nine, you know, your sense of identity is still largely subsumed in your caregiver or the adult who's around you maybe the most often.

And so what I, looking back now, notice is that the industry, it's. itself and all of the adults who were a part of it kind of took on an authority figure influence for me. And so it wasn't just my mother weighing in on what to do. Suddenly, it was a room full of people, like you said, making these decisions. Now, obviously, it's very different because the child is being commodified. I have no idea. what that means at that age. I'm simply thinking this is about, quote, unquote, having fun and pursuing your passions. Mind you, it's going to take 20 years before I realize I never voiced that I wanted to do this.

And when I pictured myself as a child, you know, I was like, oh, let's be Bill Nye, the science guy. Like, let's be in a lab coat, researching behind the scenes. I mean, in the short time we've been together, you can probably tell I would rather be reading a book than being the next Hannah Montana. And yet, as a young person, when your survival needs are met by staying obedient and compliant with the adults around you, you kind of roll with a lot of things. I didn't even know the word consent or bodily autonomy, I think, until my early 20s, which is so sad. But anyway, so six to nine, you know, you've got, this is your first map of the world, right? And I think maybe what's a little complicated for people to think about in terms of the child actor's experience is typically they're reflecting on this with an adult vantage point and they can compare and contrast between what is considered, quote unquote, normal, acceptable, appropriate, and what might be in the, you know, risky territory. for the child, we at that age don't have anything to compare it to.

This is our only map. So whatever happens now is what is our norm. And we will likely, all of us and whatever patterns we experience, have an inkling to repeat that pattern for better and worse, until we start to challenge it, examine it, hopefully heal if necessary. So nine to 12 and, you know, all around this time for a child star, child actor, it's so bizarre. We have this expiration date. If we don't break through, I feel also when I'm speaking, I'm like Penn, you probably, you probably have such great input on what your experience of this was like or if you felt any of this. But there's this pressure to make sure you break through to the next level. so that you can be taken seriously as an adult.

I feel that way at 38. Yes, right. Exactly. Yeah. And if you choose to go the Disney route, sometimes it's like people say, oh, it'll feel good now, but just you wait,

your career is going to tank when you turn 18. And yet, you know, it's just, it's a mix of decisions, and none of them center the child's well-being and development. It is all about commercial profit, strategic marketing, brand persona. And I as a child, of course, did not know that those motivators were driving the adults who I thought were just people who loved me and believed in me. Some might say the first step to writing a memoir is to be honest with yourself, but that's already a chess game. Because you might crave to uncover the truth or even claim to know it, yet not realize how many masks you wear.

Like, you know, biases and fears and defense mechanisms that block or discolor what you think is clarity. You know, so it usually takes some poking and prodding. And then the next step is to make it all make sense, which. Rarely is your life path, a singular, like, straight shot from A to B. And so the mind is this patchwork of contradictions and shifting meanings. And then your body has its own memory of what happened. And it's like, hey, are you going to factor me in? Especially I'm a somatic practitioner.

So like, probably the time to do so. If not now, then when? And so, yeah, you're just making a lot of decisions. about which dots you're going to connect. Every choice has a consequence. So I wish this process on no one, and yet I kind of wish it for everyone. Memoir specifically.

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Like, you know, like I did tell this story. The main one I knew that I would start at the beginning of this book. I was like, I don't know which ones I'm going to. But I knew I was going to tell the story of my first girlfriend, who again, you know, is now dead. And she's dead because she grew up in the environment you're describing. There's no other way that would be responsible or humane to frame it. However, I didn't only want her. her life to be, you know, uh, that. Like, I didn't want her spirit. I didn't want her character.

I didn't want that should be up to her. I wish she could tell her own story, right? And so there were a lot of, I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't relate more to some of the, the nitty gritty, like, specificity of what you're saying. It's a, it was, it was, it was, it was so intense and thorough. that by the time we finished, I started the press run for my show, you that just ended and that's, you know, and I was asked a question about being a child actor that had to do with like Body Dismorephia's something I'd said years ago and I was like, I have no idea how to answer that question anymore.

I have just put it all in this, and I wasn't there to talk about the book. I wasn't, you know, I was just like, I forgive me, I'm sorry. I was just kind of like blubbering because at this point I didn't even know how to frame anything anymore. Well, you bring up such an important aspect of being in the public eye, which is there is a camera recording this conversation right now. And while we want to experience vulnerability with each other or honesty, human connection, transparency, et cetera, we do know that at any moment someone can take this sound bite or say something and catch you off guard or if you're not showing up fully resourced to that interview because, God forbid, you are like, taking care of the kids and then rushing and then da-da-da-da-da-da, that the world watching and consuming you for entertainment may just nitpick every detail of what you said, how you said it, when obviously you're a whole human being. And so after I think going through the process of

writing in such detail, sometimes gruesome process, I find that I feel ironically more protective of what I'm sharing, even though y'all can read everything in this book. I mean, I'm like spilling the most sacred aspects. Well, not all. I decided to keep a few for myself, but it felt important because of the purpose of the book, the mission to say, hey, this pipeline for young performers is measurable with data. It is preventable. and we actually all play a role in it.

And so I realized, okay, I'm going to have to offer pieces of myself. But to do it in such quick exchanges is like, yeah, I'm like, oh, how long do you all have? Can we sit down for coffee? And can it be, I find now that I'm craving more of a fair exchange as I, you know. That's it. So I'm sorry to interject, but like that's what I felt because what I was sitting down. And, you know, actually, God bless the, the interviewer ended up writing a really, I think, kind of lovely balanced, like, but I remember that it was the first interview I was in.

And I knew nothing about her. And we're like jumping into body dysmorphia. And I'm like, what the, okay. I wasn't even sure what her name was, right? Because it's like I had been taking care of the kids right in a moment before. And, you know, it's her job. It's nothing, nothing. But it's, there is such an imbalance in the exchange.

And so there's like, we live in an age. of the, like, I think the disintegration of celebrity, basically. And for many reasons, that's a great thing, probably. But the way that it happens, it just feels really violent, I think, for everybody. So actually, so why don't we just, let's just go right into, let's just explicitly talk about this toddler to train wreck pipeline that you describe. You know, you talk about the data. So please just give us, give us a framing of that work right now.

And I think also specifically for our listeners, what it means about our culture, you know, like some of the reflections it has the broad takeaways, you know. Dear Hollywood, the podcast and semi-well adjusted are an expression of what I call the toddler to train wreck pipeline, or they're unpacking the toddler to train wreck pipeline, which is this systemized downward spiral that we see, the repeated horrors. stories of child performers, I think almost everyone at some point has at least seen an article that said, you know, 20 tragic ways these child stars passed away. And you see psychiatric hospitalizations, decimated fortunes, sexual trauma, incarceration, and sometimes suicide that define the lives and deaths of child performers. But no one, and And I think I know why, because this has been a very profitable machine for over a century. You can think even Shirley Temple was experiencing some of this abuse and exploitation,

but the audience really didn't pay much attention to that. We just rooted for her to be the precocious, exceptional image of optimism and innocence for the country, because that's what we wanted from her. Anyways, I digress. But, you know, very few people have deeply examined why this happens and how it unfolds. And we haven't really created a game plan to assess and approach it differently. And so child stardom is this unique cultural phenomenon that is, in my opinion, often poorly represented to the general public. usually what the general public sees are articles of quote unquote rich entitled young artists who are behaving recklessly

and there is reckless behavior involved often yes but in reality there's an entire ecosystem exploiting children and hiding the harm and then portraying this lifestyle of fame and it's this facade But behind the scenes, you know, all these detrimental and potentially abusive things are happening. And they're also working a lot. They're like working a lot and they're often quite disciplined. Yes. And so when you start to see, and thank you for adding that, because yes, these kids are working actually more than one job, more than two jobs, more than three jobs. if it's in the book too just looking at a day I'm like how did I ever why did I ever and who allowed

this but when a young person starts showing signs of illness or misbehavior our tendency is to to view it as their individual isolated problem but if these exact same stories keep happening then there might be something else here right so I started researching across child development and media culture and the industry ecosystem and then, you know, overlaying that with my lived experience and also my training now in the mental health field. And actually, can you clarify, you do have some certifications. I just, if you want to name, though, it's just interesting that you have, you know, you are coming back with like authorities here, expertise, right?

A student forever learning. And yes, I do have, there will be seven. certifications. Most recently, as a mental health coordinator for productions and theatrical stage shows, which is such a full circle moment. But training includes trauma-informed somatic movement facilitation, interpersonal neurobiology, racialized trauma, some, of course, like psych first aid, mental health first aid. A lot of suicide prevention and, And yeah, and I'm always up for learning more and more and more. So that's, you know, some of the theoretical frameworks that I'm approaching this conversation with or through.

I came across some really startling research. So Donna Rockwell did a paper on the phenomenology of fame. Phenomenology is kind of a silly word. I don't know if people know what it is. feel free to Google it. You could say it's our attempt to philosophically or objectively measure our subjective experience, meaning you and I are in the same room at the same event,

but our inner experience is going to create a different overall perception of what's happening, of who we are, of da-da-da-da. So, and that's, sorry, that's like an oversimplification. Please fact-check me and Google it. But the paper mentions that the experience of becoming famous correlates to the experience of becoming addicted to drugs, that there's a direct lineup in first the exposure to the substance and or experience the high, et cetera, and then adapting to it as a norm and eventually actually being dependent on it, so that if it's taken away or if it's threatened, you can see

symptoms of withdrawal, destabilization, et cetera. So that's one piece of research that I thought was interesting. The second was that Jib Fowles, Fowles, Fowles, talks about how the average lifespan and some research he did of people experiencing fame was 12 to 14. years younger than the average lifespan of a non-famous person. I believe this is in the states. And that, of course, can be due to a myriad of factors. And then the third piece of research that I was like, all right, we got to do something is I'm about to talk about things that are intense. So if you are not in the space to hear it or it's not right for you, please just fast forward 30 seconds. This piece of research mentioned that famous people had three to four

times higher rates of dying by suicide than non-famous people. And so I looked at those three pieces of research together and I said, if we know that fame is addictive, that it's altering a young person's brain chemistry. And if we know that it's going to shorten their lifespan, and if we know that it may lead to mental health challenges that could result in them dying by suicide, why are we hooking young children to a drug? And why are we praising it as the general public? And so I'm kind of on a quest to be able to debunk things because I have faith. Haven't used that word in a while, but I have faith in people that once they do know, the information that's been withheld from the general public, I think it will make sense and I think we will feel collectively propelled to act. And this is not just for child stars. While I would appreciate folks humanizing, you know, all of my peers who have this experience, I'm also letting me.

you know, this is a system where all of us are actually affected. You know, if you're at home watching and you're consuming content of children in these compromised positions or your consuming family content like from influencers, there's a lot of stuff here. And the funnel of falling into this pipeline is wider than ever because now you only need an internet connection to become famous. We're not even it's not even like the child

aspires to be an actor with a craft and so we're going to train twice a week and then we go to a set that's separate from the house and this is treated as a hobby or a profession. This is now my baby's so cute I couldn't help it. It seems innocent

enough. I think I'm going to film them waking up in their bedroom and that's going to be a digital footprint that they permanently have to live with for the rest of their lives. So there's a lot here. I read some research around how child stars have functioned as emblems of American innocence and optimism, particularly during periods of national instability.

So if you think about this, Shirley Temple existed during the Great Depression. And they often represent an idealized version. of childhood that aligns with whatever the dominant cultural values are. So, you know, exceptionalism, the rugged, you know, make it seem like it was just you and no one else helped you, the individualism, you know, the status, the wealth, you know, you're the picture perfect example of capitalism. You won capitalism, allegedly, from the outside, it looks that way, trust me, most of us, it's not, it's not what you think.

But then we've got this, you know, quote unquote, rags to riches myth in our culture. And child stars often deliver to us at a healthy distance where we don't have to look at ourselves so we can just watch them fumble along, some story of having a downfall and then a come back, where there's redemption, there's rehabilitation, there's, you know, hope. And do you know what it's built on? It's built on the good American value of resilience, self-discipline, and cautionary conservatism. So we can dive into that myth. Then you've got, of course, this other myth of where we, in some ways, we're impressed by precocious children.

and we kind of accelerate their ramp into adulthood. We parentify them and we encourage them to act like adults. And the child stars, like peak parentified child. Like I said, I was the president of an S corporation, I think at 13 years old. Ask me what an S corp is. I still can't really tell you. So there are a lot of different myths. and such as child's stardom,

but I do think it's a fascinating microcosm of the broader culture. Did any of that resonate? No, it does. Of course it does. I actually think let's jump into the microcosm for a second because I think what we don't, in this, we don't want to deny you your intimate personhood, you know.

So amidst all this, you still were 12, right? And it does sound like actually you were a month. amongst a very, very small group of people who, you know, I didn't quite have this, but I grew up alongside others who had, who had gotten into it so early like you did, where actually life was so distorted and complicated by the time you reach 12, that there's so much about it that is actually all of this and is not, you know, it's like it would be so irresponsible to try to address your 12-year-old life without having addressed all this.

But now that we have, did you have crushes, crushes, and a little heartbreaks and embarrassing, cringy moments that are, that are, like, not connected to predatory, systemic, oppressive. You know what I mean? Yes. And I just want to point out that you are bringing us up to the surface. You are not the one who's making this more serious. It was me, not you. First time ever.

First time ever. First time ever. Yeah. So, let's see. Formative crushes. you know people will be able to corroborate this via Google I was quite a tomboy as they say so I was the kid on the basketball courts there were you know these handful of boys Brandon Casey Josh I still remember their names wow and they didn't think I was pretty nope they thought these lovely young ladies Madison and and

Shelby were beautiful, who were, you know, developing physically and entering womanhood in all of the ways. And I was just the kid on the court with them. So I had private crushes, I think, but I also think I was nervous about being rejected. So maybe I tried to just, like, focus on building friendships. I had also, my best friend growing up was this, like, blonde, bond. mom shell. And so I learned a lot from her experiences, not realizing those were not going to correlate to my experiences. Turns out people don't just drool over you for existing and take you out on fancy dates. I never expected that, but it definitely, yeah, that did not come true. But you know what's kind of beautiful is I had these quiet,

crushes at a younger age. And in some ways, when I realized I was queer later, I sort of got to have crushes for the first time all over again. And I think when I became more connected to my body and understood sexuality, I was like, oh my gosh, now I know what it feels like to be that 12-year-old puppy panting for someone's attention and pining over someone, I think I had sort of, you know, what some queer people call that second puberty. You know, it was first for for Brandon and Casey and Josh. But then it was for my first girlfriend. And I was like, damn. That's so sweet. I actually am curious about even a little bit before 12. You've talked about how past the age of eight, you no longer are able to relate to the experiences of

non-famous people. You know, like, that's kind of where it's capped. And I'm curious if there were any even before eight or even after eight, given your experience in the industry, were there any moments or relationships where you felt you were able to experience that sort of like innocence and purity of childhood? So I'm thinking about in your book, you described Toledo with this like kind of like wistful like you talk about catching fireflies and um maybe hide and seek and yeah I'm curious if there were any any parts of your life that were felt protected in that way yes great question I don't know if I can use the word protected but I can say there were definitely some experiences um that were as innocent as they could be um one of them

I mentioned earlier that I'm in a family full of athletes, and I can't tell you how much sports actually meant to me deeply because it helped me feel connected to my roots in Ohio and to my family who I didn't see as much anymore. And so I got to play on a recreational basketball team. And originally in the manuscript, I wrote a whole section about it because it's, I think, one of my favorite childhood memories. And I'm going to two of the gal's weddings this year. So we're still in touch. And the families were super supportive. And it was a wholesome environment. I mean, we were the team that like, I was just talking to one of the players, Janae, she was like, you know,

we were a strong fourth place team every time at the tournament. And we were. Like, and it was. And And that was so important because everything else in my life was high achieving and perfection. And Coach Todd just was there to help us become better humans. And I don't think he ever raised his voice once, but we had such a respect for him. And he coached with such care. So that's, you know, that's a beautiful and uplifting experience from early ages. And another one that was still connected to the industry. that I do speak about in the book a bit is my time with this vocal coach named Nick Cooper.

And, you know, there was an intensity, of course, around singing heartfelt songs and et cetera. But at the core, Nick was a super attuned adult to all of the young artists he was helping coach and train. And that attunement, that felt presence where it was like his body is fully grounded, facing me asking and wanting to know, ready to listen, and not just to listen to dismiss later, but to actually enfold whatever he heard into the lesson for the day. Wow, that was, it was such a gift. And I think that's where I fell in love with music in a way that I would be able to maintain even when I stopped making music professionally. Like he actually got, he planted the seed of the power of music just for music's sake as a universal language of human connection, as a storytelling for expression. And so, yeah, I think sports and music, I, in some ways, yeah, I wish, if I got to ever do it all over again, I would have loved to see what an athletic career might have looked like, even if that just meant like coaching locally. Like, doesn't have to be fancy.

In fact, don't sign me up for anything fancy ever again. Allison, I'm curious, and I ask this question with a little trepidation because I don't want to do the thing that we're saying is harmful, which is like glamorized an experience that maybe, maybe at least from a perspective shouldn't have happened. But I would imagine that a lot of people when they think of your name and have recognition would think of like Missy Elliott's work, and would think of Camp Rock. I don't know if that's fair to say. So I'm curious what those experiences were for you, what you remember of them, what that was like for you and anything that you're comfortable sharing. Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that I am by no means claiming that every moment was difficult or negative. That is not true in my experience. And there are some one of a kind opportunities like dancing with Missy Elliott at the American Music Awards when I was maybe

nine or ten. And I think I sat next to Timbalin in the audience. And I think I sat next to Timbalin in the audience. And I think I was on stage after Snoop Dog announced Missy winning, and the director, like, held me up to the audience. I think I mentioned this in the book, like Baby Simba. And I, like, there's no world where I'm going to tell you that was an incredible moment. And Missy herself was and has continued to be so kind, so genuine. When, you know, it's not like we hang out the way I think some people thought back in the day I was like, you know, her niece or something. But she was wonderful to work with and the choreographer, hi-hat. Like I just saw hi-hat not that long ago.

And it's amazing to know, you know, your body will tell the truth sometimes before your mind catches up. And anytime I see anyone from Missy's network or team. my body lights up and it's, it's a hell yes. It's a great to see you. It's a, this feels safe. This feels good. So I want to give her those flowers. Camp Rock.

So this is where it gets more complicated because there were a lot of beautiful aspects of being able to, you know, do something you enjoyed, singing, dancing, acting. But as I mentioned at the top of the interview, I was trying to cope with how volatile. these highs and lows were. Even if something is positive, sometimes it's still overwhelming. And if you don't know how to come down from it, you find yourself, you know, just feeling less stable, less balanced. And I didn't have any tools at that point.

And no one gave us any kind of resources. I've designed those now. We could talk about that later. But I was feeling that sense of chaos in my body, professionally, and in my home with my caregivers and family members struggling in their own ways. So I felt like Camp Rock was a bit of a tornado. And if I could pinpoint a positive moment from it, there was an assistant choreographer. Her name is Galen Hooks.

She's gone on to be so, so, so wildly successful. And she deserves every good thing in life. She and I did something as simple as create a handshake. And in a world where you're on a set and it's, you know, every day is measured by how expensive it is, so don't mess up because time is money. And you're also around peers who just moments ago were actually your competition in the audition process. It can be hard to build genuine bonds. And this moment with Galen of just being like, I made up a fun. handshake. It was age appropriate and it was like lovely. So, you know, there's fondness

to be mined in the memory. And then, yeah, on the, not on the flip side, but just muddying that pure water a little. This is also when my body image issues are starting to escalate because I'm about to be, quote, unquote, a, you know, an official Disney channel movie star, a decomm star. And millions of kids are going to, quote, unquote, potentially look up to me. So now I have to be a role model. So I can't really make mistakes, but I don't know how to do anything yet. So my way of coping was, you know, how can I study everything and get ahead of making the mistake? How can I, like, accelerate my maturation process?

And that was, of course, me just trying to be, like, safe, ultimately from scrutiny and from doing something ridiculous. But in so doing, I do think that I, you know, I was not like some of the other kids on the set who would just, like, go out and party. Like, I will never know what that's like. I have never been the quote-unquote cool kid in that way. I was somewhere in Existential Onwee, really since the womb, to be honest. I feel you. Yes. I'm like Penn, I feel like we have some resonance potentially.

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bodily truth to it and spiritual truth to it. It's like I feel as though I've always kind of had one foot in, one foot out. And I'm like, well, yeah, okay, all right, sure, let's do it. Like, let's get on with it. But I'm going to die at some point, right? Interesting. And I'm just curious, because you did take it to what you said since the womb. And I'm curious if you know anything about the circumstances of your birth.

Oh, I do. And I actually, I didn't understand. it until I uncovered those memories while I was writing the book, that I was not a baby that was planned. I was a bit of an oops. And this notion of feeling perhaps like I was a mistake, I think, makes a lot of sense as to why I then became the kid who was like. like, well, I'm going to make every day count then.

I'm going to be the best mistake ever. I'm going to make sure you know that even though it was originally a mistake, I'm going to course correct. Let me show you that, you know, I'm worthy or valuable or whatever. So that's, of course, like the psychological aspect. Something that you named, I won't go into detail on this, but if anyone feels like looking up neurosequential modeling from Dr. Bruce Perry. or reading Dr. Bruce Perry's book,

What Happened to You, that I think he co-authored with Oprah. It talks about how in certain, let's say, traumatic experiences or, you know, at developmental milestones, if the brain doesn't develop in a particular order and way and time period, etc., sometimes we actually have to go back to the the simplest skills and capacities and cultivate those before we can move on to the more complex functioning. And so for some people, the healing process, if you show up in therapy and you're like,

okay, this happened to me when I was a baby, but now I'm going to try to jump into, let's say, cognitive behavioral therapy, we might actually benefit more from different modalities that would help create connections in the brain that might not have, you know, been made had you not been in, you know, a certain environment or with certain attachment figures or etc. So that's something that I've found really interesting about somatic therapy and techniques is that sometimes, you know, trauma and things live in nonverbal parts of the body. So if you find yourself trying to explain away what happened, but words seem to fail, there might be micro movements or ways of understanding sensation or tension or shifts in temperature, energy, mood in the body that actually end up helping you process and release stuff that was stored for years. So, yeah, my origin story, my perception of it was that I was a mistake and therefore I needed to prove that it wasn't, you know, that there could be a takeback that they could change their mind.

When I say that, I'm curious what comes up for you, if anything. Me? Well, I'm so sure all of us. Um, well, I happen to know the circumstances of my conception and my premature birth. And I do know that, uh, uh, uh, uh, there, you know, kind of details and things that are not so much for sharing you here, but they're sort of complicated. But, but, uh, what I do know is that my, my mother always read the, uh, you know she left a life actually of like success and wealth uh to to have a she made sacrifices and wanted to have a child and and her conviction in that alone always established for me um

i never some there's always been some of like self worth or confidence or belief that it's meant to be like you know despite all the extreme challenges that come for anybody there's always been that and I do and so I'm sure you know I I know this exists for everybody else not Navajo and Sophie Sophie in particular has a very of I mean you know plenty of challenges in life no matter if they don't come from family they come from somewhere else but Sophie has is a very healthy family system. Well, actually, I was going to say I started to tear up a little bit when we were talking

about birth and birth stories because I was thinking about my own. And I was thinking actually I told Domino about my birth story. At the beginning of my pregnancy, she sat down with me and she was asking me, we were in New York. And I was telling her my plans of having like an unmedicated labor and delivery and how important that was to me and I was very enthusiastic about it and then she asked about my own birth story and I was like oh well I was a C-section for my mom and my mom had previously had two unmedicated births that she really like praises and talks about so um with so much like pride and I almost like forgot that I was actually not part of that story for her and that I was kind of like is

there's so much regret around my birth and how it happened. And anyway, then cut to my labor just a year and a half ago, there was so much wrapped up in like me feeling like a failure for ending up not being able to have an unmedicated labor. And a lot of that had to do with my mom. And I remember she came into the delivery room at one point and I started weeping. And part of it was that I was like, my mom is here, you know, and then the other part of it was she's going to be so disappointed in me that I decided to get the epidural. And yeah, I just feel like there's obviously still so much for me to work through there, but there's got to be a connection and that I'm sure it's coming out in all these other ways in my life. But yes, I do generally

have a family that I love and is healthy in a lot of ways. But we all have those early experiences that are shaping us in some way. Thank you for sharing. I have so many people in my life who have mentioned the complexity of quote unquote, a more natural or unmedicated birthing experience. There's a lot there at the individual level and also like socially and. societally. So my heart goes out to you. Thank you, Alison. I actually had a question for you about movement. You've talked a lot about like somatic healing and I, of course, you're a dancer.

And I'm curious if throughout your life, if movement has always been a place for you, remained a place for you of like genuine expression and uh yeah expression or if you feel like that you had to journey back to a place where movement could be that for you specifically with dance i actually didn't enjoy dance until i uh entered the somatic space um so i i went my entire life I think the high I got off of was more that I was able to hit the step and do the thing the right way, quote unquote, right way. So it was very outward in. And of course, a somatic version of movement incorporates this inside out experience. And so I actually got to fall in love with dance.

Ironically, after I stopped pursuing it as a profession. and pursuing it with any regularity. And it just became something where I could put on a song at home privately. And mind you, when people used to tell me like, yeah, sometimes I just play music and move around, I did not relate to that experience at all. That, to me, required some kind of freedom, some kind of like trust with your own body. Like, what am I going to do? Someone give me choreography.

It required vulnerability, and it was a very slow process of meeting myself. And I had to go, you know, I had to be really, yeah, just mild and patient. Now I appreciate movement more than ever. And I'm not just talking about fitness, but just understanding the ways that your body moves, body language when you're in conversation, how your body opens up when you feel comfortable or how it signals to you by closing off before you even realize that you're not actually enjoying that date with that person. And so, yeah, I think there's also this thing just culturally where we often treat the body as a project that we're trying to complete,

you know, if I get to this weight or when I do this thing with it. then it'll be complete, or it's an object to fix. There's something wrong with it, and I need to make it, quote, unquote, better. And that's sold to us in all the ways. But I think movement gets tied into that, where movement becomes this no pain, no gain, push yourself to the limit. Otherwise, that workout didn't count. Use these extreme body modification programs to show yourself that you have the discipline

and self-control that you aspire to have, whatever that is, when in reality, wow, like movement, just as a gateway back to reconnecting with yourself and to be able to check in with what it feels like to be your human self is, it's so much more profound and rich and inviting than those narrow depictions of it. So I actually think my relationship to movement is because increasingly expansive. And especially when it's tied to healing, opportunities to heal. And as a somatic practitioner, you know, I teach six-year-olds, 65-year-olds, 96-year-olds. And there's, oh, it's just so special when you can create a room environment, co-create

together, the pressure's off. if you were allowed to listen to what your body is feeling and to slowly rebuild trust and let it move in a way that helps you express something, what would that be like? And to see what happens for people is just, it's profound. Thank you for sharing that. 10 out of 10 recommend. Also, though, go at your pace and don't rush.

because if you've been used to being neck up in your daily awareness, sometimes up front, you open up the door to listening to your body and your body's like, finally, I've been trying to get a hold of your attention and it says a lot and maybe it's loud. So just, you know, titrate, do a little, go back to what's comfortable and stable and start to, yeah, thread it in to your daily practice. Allison, I want to be respectful of time. And I do want to give an opportunity to talk about resources you had mentioned earlier. And I, in your Dear Media podcast, you do talk about sort of not just talking about the issues, but also having action. And it looks like you've made some progress and thinking about what that action can be, developing resources for families, for children. So let's give you some space to share that with us. Yes. Thank you. This is the most exciting part. to me because this is where we say, sure, things have looked grim and tough things have

happened, but slash and we can reimagine how we do this. And it actually doesn't have to be technically speaking that hard. We just have to incorporate a humid-centered approach into our interactions. So I try to think about, you know, participating in solutions at every level of the matter individually for young people entering the industry with no resource, no guidance, I designed artist's well-being essentials, which, to my knowledge, is the first of its kind toolkit that not only provides some basic psychoeducation and skill building, but also specific performance-related activities so young artists can develop, for example, a pre-and-post-audition ritual, knowing that they're going to be facing heaps of rejection or stage fright going into

the audition, what can we do so that you feel like you can manage that spike in energy and then that come down after and the waiting game of it all? And so it's a bunch of different experts and industry people who came together and said, we can make this a frontline preventative resource. You know, it's definitely the toolkit I wish I had. And that my audience had. That sounds like the phrase you said, a pre and post edition ritual, I was like, I don't know if anybody saw my eyes, but I was like, that's a fucking revelation right there. Also, human-centered, like, it's not such a, that part is like, it feels high stakes,

but it's not such a high-stakes moment of like, are your parents embezzling funds? Like, I love that you're thinking about every stage of the process. Like, that's exactly what you said, human-centered. So amazing. Yes, I love that you pointed that out because it doesn't, you don't have to be in the worst-case scenario to still see opportunities to improve, to just raise the standards overall. And so that's sort of at the individual level.

And I think it would be great if SAG-AFTRA and or agencies and, you know, management groups had this resource. The second that you join the union, the second that you sign on board, this is your onboarding manual. Tadda. And so then you get a little bit deeper into what happens on set or what happens. or what happens in terms of how we're telling these stories, depicting things like, you know, mental illness or social issues.

How can we portray these more ethically but still be compelling artistically? Well, that's where the mental health coordinator certification comes in, where we can provide a suite of services, including that kind of consultation up front, but also onset support for those intense days and not just for, the actor who, yes, is going to be enacting something, you know, that might be quite activating, but also the crew, because we don't know what the crew has experienced in their lives outside of that project. Perhaps they have to go and witness a recreation or depiction of something that has left deep scars for them. So onset support, lots of other things that you can find

if you go to, I think it's association mhc.com. Great network. That's, That's where I got my training. So that can start to shift industry protocols similar to how we're seeing intimacy coordination get its moment finally. And so then you zoom out even further to like state level, federal level, policy level. I've been working on trying to get a couple of different bills passed with a bunch of incredible people who have been at this way longer than me and who are far more. knowledgeable. And it's so encouraging to see that I'm not the first person to think about this

because it felt like that for a while. So for decades, these folks have been working on improving the legislation around protecting children, particularly in getting background checks on adults who will be working with minors because it has happened in many cases that registered sex offenders, um, child predators are on set with, that is wild with us as children. And of course we don't know this. Um, but there's also, um, legislation to, uh, protect children who are now, um, in the influencer space or in their, their parents vlogs. Um, because that's a whole different can of worms. Um, a lot of great stuff to, to check out there. If you also are just curious about like what it means to raise a young person in a digital age,

two books that I appreciated learning about were growing up in public by Dr. DeVora Heitner and then sharenting by a lawyer named Leah Plunkett, I think is her last name. 10 out of 10 recommend. So trying to work on helping solve this issue. at every level. And then I'm also just, I get to teach. So I go on conventions and teach young people. And I'm going to be teaching a workshop for SAG AfterA soon.

And really, I see so much strength in local community-driven efforts. So, you know, yes, I run my mental health company, but like, no matter what I'm doing and where I am. I think it's really just like be present with the person in front of you and trust that even if you can't solve everything, you can't help with something and just start to try to identify what are the things that you can do. My broadest hope is that the book actually serves as this vehicle to, you know, raise public consciousness on this matter so that we can just graduate to different conversations. So it's not just, oh, did you see what happened to so and so? But it's, oh, did you see how the pipeline is unfolding again?

Hmm, I wonder how we could intervene differently. Like, I'm excited to hear people weigh in with some intel. So that's what's up on my side. This is neither here nor there, but since you mentioned your book, I just have to say the cover of your book is so good. And having looked at so many covers and like when you have to kind of use your, we know that you have to use a photo of your face. it's so good. It's hard to find ones that are so original. I love it. Thank you. I have to give credit

to M.K., the photographer. And actually, the room I'm sitting in, all we did was go into the front lawn. And she's an incredible photographer. M.K. Sadler, go follow her. Hey. And she. So that's the sky behind you in that picture. It's the sky. Yes. Amazing. And she just shot upwards on the front lawn. Actually, we did a whole other shoot. And we were like, it's not quite it. And she said, if you're willing, like, let's try a couple other things. And she brought this idea. And I was like, yeah, that's it. Because it's like, it's kind of a spoof of the typical memoir photo that's like, you know, bold, brilliant, composed, elegant. And I'm like, no, actually, I'm semi-will adjusted. And I just landed on my face. So yeah, shout out to MK.

Well, our final question, which we ask everybody, is a bit of a hard left turn back to where we started. If you could go back to 12-year-old Allison, what would you say or do, if anything? Wow. I think I would want to encourage myself. Actually, no. I would just want to listen. I would just want to provide an attuned, grown, presence and maybe create an environment where younger me could feel whatever Allison needed

to feel at that age so that it didn't have to get buried so, so deeply. I think I would just try to be a friend, a support system. And like, if little Allison got a little messy, I don't know. Not saying I'm going to, like, encourage it, but I might not shut it down. It might be good to get a little messy, young one. Color outside the lines. Yeah, I love that. That's really lovely.

Thank you so much, Allison. Yeah, thank you for coming on. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was a full conversation. Glad you think so. It was. Thank you for going there with us.

You can get Alison Stoner's new books semi-well-adjusted, despite literally everything, everywhere you get books. And you can follow them online at Allison Stoner. That's A-L-Y-S-O-N-S-O-N-S-O-N-R. Pod Crushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time, because guess what? You can listen completely ad-free.

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