Podcrushed - Andy Grammer

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Chart topping singer-songwriter Andy Grammer brings his signature buoyancy and relentless optimism to a frank and reflective conversation around death, songwriting, and always being true to yourself.��Follow Podcrushed on socials! InstagramTwitterTikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Finally I just go like give into it and I walk over and I say listen my mom passed away one of the things I like to do for her is just pay for women's breakfast sometimes it would mean a lot to me around her age if you would let me

take care of your breakfast this morning and the lady on the left just starts bawling and she says like I lost my son he's about your age and so we stand up I'm just like bawling with stranger. Oh my gosh. I'm crying too. This is Pod Crushed. The podcast that takes the sting out of rejection, one crushing

middle school story at a time. And where guests share their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying. And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director. I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher. And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout. Penn, I feel like we need to address the elephant in the room, which is that you are now on TikTok. You're a TikToker. Well, don't call me a TikToker. Yeah, that'll get him off. He just deleted the app. That's a bit.

Thanks, Sophie. Yeah, it was, I think we could say it was an immaculate first step. See, here's the, here's the truth, is that all I've ever wanted to do is just dance. Aw. It's just dance, dance. Yeah. And now I have an opportunity to do that in front of legions of youth. You, so for anyone who doesn't know, Penn has a new TikTok account and his handle is I am Penn Badgley, and his first video is a crossover, the unexpected crossover the year. Midnights, Taylor Swift's new album, lead song, anti-hero with you. So it's like a moment between Penn and Joe Goldberg. And I, though I was like in the room when that TikTok was being created and, you know, understood the idea. I cannot stop watching it. I feel like I'm a like a pen stand for the first time in my life. I've like watched the video.

For the first time in your life. Like, I've always felt like I'm your friend. I've never felt like I'm your fan. And now, today I am your fan. I like, I keep watching that. I've watched it truly, truly hundreds of times. It's like shameful. Really?

Truly hundreds of times. Yeah. And all of our explore pages are now a mixture of like things we like and Penn Badger's face. Yeah. So things we like and that thing we don't like. No, we love you, Penn. I've just noticed on TikTok the way people who are younger than millennials comment on millennials. and it took me a long time to remember that they mean it's old and not young.

I'm so accustomed to my life to a millennial being young, right? And now it's like it's a, it's a charming derogatory dad term. Someone called me an elder TikToker. I was like, how? Oh, no, no, no, no. Someone did. They tagged me in a post and it was like, thank you elder TikToker for teaching me about Taylor. But they weren't being sarcastic.

It was like, they were trying to be sweet. No, that's what I mean. These young people saying without any sense of irony, like I love it when millennials are trying to figure out TikTok or something, there are enough comments about me being a millennial and then I'm old and I was like, what? TikTok will keep you humble. Yeah.

Well, let's get into it. I think you should know you save my life. Our guest today is Andy Grammer. He is a chart-topping. Platinum Sailing Recording Artist, talented musician, who you might know from his slew of hits, starting with his 2011 smash, Keep Your Head Up to Honey I'm Good, his most recent single, Saved My Life. That's the name of the song. I was moved, but the name of the song is called Saved My Life.

In fact, I was really moved by the entire conversation. And Andy, from the moment you hear his voice, is just, he has a buoyant spirit. I think you should know you saved my life. Oh, oh, oh. We did dive right into the deep end. We got started with some heavy stuff, Nava, why don't you? You're like, heavy? Let me turn this over to Nava.

Heavy, let me toss it off to Naves. You take the albatross. I'm done with it. Actually, Andy and I are old friends. We've known each other since we were 16, and Andy's mom passed away. I believe in he was 26, and he and his mom were super close.

So it just felt right having that connection with him as someone who also lost my mom to start there. So that's where we kind of jumped in, stayed at the deep end, and then proceeded to talk about middle school stories. But there's also a really sweet connection with this week's listener submitted story from a listener who lost his mom at a really young age. And so it's kind of a theme today.

Yeah, actually we were so moved by this listener submitted story that comes at the end of the episode that we actually commissioned a short film, an animated short film to go with this story. It'll be coming out soon, so stay tuned to our socials for a release date. I think you're going to love it. You can also stay tuned to our socials to see lots of fun. The Pod Crush account on TikTok is a cool place to be these days.

Some have said it's the best podcast account on TikTok, and by some, I mean, I just now, but I think it might be true. I want to see receipts. Someone just commented and said, not going to lie, I started following because he's hot. Now I'm hooked and listened to the podcast. That's the premise upon which I based my entire career. I was like, love it. But you're going to love today's episode. Andy is a joy.

Stick around. I think you should know you saved my life. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I may. making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louie. Nom Nom does this with food that actually engages your pup senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures and ingredients.

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Keep mealtime exciting with NomNum, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons like Felicia Rashad,

Loretta D'Vine, Ava DuVernay, and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process, and the legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season 2 drops July 29th. Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. Well, you've written a song about it.

We told you we would talk about it. It's about your mother. It's called She'd Say. Yeah. I can't listen to this song without crying. Can you just tell us about it? My God, I lost my mom when I was 25, and it really rocked me hard. And I'm, you know, before we were coming on, I was too loud on the microphone and everybody was making fun of me.

And that's kind of my vibe is like I'm a little too much. Like, I'm a lot. And for two years after my mom passed away, I was the quiet guy at the table for like two full years, just like taking in the world. from a different viewpoint, which, you know, I like to think of that struggle is there to make us stronger to turn us into something as opposed to just to make life shitty. And, you know, I make a lot of music that's encouraging. And if you're going to be someone that's encouraging and you haven't been through pain, you're pretty annoying.

If you're trying to build someone who's going to go sing to people and try to cheer them up, to have them really experience pain is kind of important. So that's kind of how I see it in my zone. But, so I've written a ton of songs about my mom. We can go deep into this. She's like my super otherworldly collaborator. I have a momager in the next world, undeniably. I love that.

So this specific collaboration of many, this one was the most aggressive because my wife just got me a, like, out of the blue, out of surprise. She got me a phone call with a medium. I came home one day. And she's like, I got this for you. You know, I don't know whether we believe in this or not, but like give it a shot. And I got on the phone with this guy.

Wait, and so let's be clear. Maybe not everybody's aware. A medium is, I think this is somebody who claims they somehow communicate with the other side, right? And I'm like, ah, that's a bit much for me. But okay, I'm also like, I feel like I'm supposed to make this feel like I'm not into it, but I'm kind of into it. Also, yeah, I just don't know. I think it's one of those areas where you could also just be a super quack and do a lot of damage. So I'm like a little skeptical.

So I get on the phone with this guy. and immediately he goes, Kathy, right? Man, there's a strong vibe coming from somebody that Kathy, is that your mom? I'm like, yeah, go on. And he goes, oh,

she really is very adamant that you have to write a song for her to your daughter because she can't be there to sing it to her, but you'll know what to do and she thinks it'll be a big hit. So you have to write this song

from her to your daughter about everything that she would say to your daughter. Like just straight up, this is what you need to, to do. And I'm like, wow, you're just like giving directions now. I thought, like, there used to be like little signs and I'm like, oh, is that what you're trying to say? Is what you trying to say? Now it's just like, this is a mandate. I'm going to need you to do this. It actually doesn't have any

to do with you. What's your cut like? Does she get five percent? I know, right? It just has to do with me and your daughter and you need to do it. So I wrote this song, wrote the lyrics pretty quick in my car on the way to this session. And then I had two incredible songwriting collaborators help me like piece it together. And there's a version of the song. That's just like, called In the Box. It's just like the track that we made. And then I get back in the car and I hear on the radio on NPR, it says like, Lady Smith Black Mabazzo is going to be playing in Los Angeles on Friday.

And my mom loved the Graceland record. Like she loved it. Wow. And so I'm just like, holy shit. I start crying in the car because that's such a strange coincidence. It's not anything to anybody else, but to me to write the song and then have on the radio say, these people that your mom loved are going to be in town. I'm like, oh, my God.

So we started chasing him down, and we got them to come in, and it was like, they usually don't spend that much on a record, but there's like a lot of them. That's a big get. I mean, they're huge, and they've been huge. I will say it was pretty cool to make art from a place of like,

it doesn't matter. Whatever, whatever it is, this is bigger than anything that could be material. So we got them into the studio And then I had a huge blow-up photo of my mother That I put on the piano And just told him like, this is what we're doing This is what we're trying to get

This is like told them the whole story Like this is what we're chasing We're chasing something so crazy But I'm just following it And then they surrounded me And they started singing I miss my mom in Zulu That's what they're saying about

Oh my God. Oh wow Wow That's stunning. Just like crying. My daughter, my daughter is there. How old was your daughter at this point? I think she's like one. She's at the very end of the song saying Grandma Kathy.

Her name is Louisiana K grammar for Kathy. It's her middle name. And it was really fun to just like, I mean, as artists, we kind of do this anyway, but there's different degrees to it where you're like reading tea leaves and trying to figure out, how do I stay open and interact with this? creativity, ether, other thing and then help be someone that guides it into reality so that other people

can get into it. And it's definitely one of the ones that has a really strong reaction from fans. It's funny because when you have a song that goes out and gets like a lot of attention, there's bound to be a lot of people that have a grandma Kathy like specifically. Oh, that's true.

And the emails and the DMs that I get from people that are like, whoa, this song with Grandma Kathy at the end really rocked our world and was like massive dust. One thing that I think is really

beautiful about that story and I kind of want to get into this with you because you know my mom passed away several years ago. I did not know that. How long ago? She passed me seven years ago. Are we just going to cry the whole time?

This is where we're having. Yeah, I'm like already like doing it. I feel it's happening. I love it. But what I was going to say is like what I love about that story is like when you got in the car and you heard the song

you weren't cynical about it Because we all have spiritual perception. Like I think every human being has the capacity to perceive this reality that is transcendental and that we can't perceive with our physical senses, but we somehow have the capacity to understand spiritual things. But some of us will nurture that more and develop it and some will deny it. And sometimes we can be cynical or we can like deny ourselves something that our spirit is perceiving to be true, but then like our material mind or, you know, all the propaganda that's like against that reality being real. can affect us and we'll ignore something that is so beautiful and, like, healthy for us. And I love that you didn't ignore it and that you chased it and you persevered and the door opened. And then you had that, like, incredibly confirming experience of them surrounding you

and, like, showering you with love and singing about your mom. I think it's such a, like, beautiful tribute to the reality and, like, want to commend you for listening to your spiritual perception and not being cynical. Oh, man. I love that point. I think that it's actually something you can get good at, like lifting weights, like dealing with your cynicism around stuff like that. Again, I'm very open and it's very scary because when you leave what you logically know, it's like not that far of, it's like, it's scary because like it can go into something beautiful. I can be like, I'm in a cult.

I didn't even know that guy. The line is very thin. It can happen quick. So true. I do think in small sweet ways, if anybody's listening that has lost someone, I would really encourage you to play with it. like I like to go on offense sometimes with grieving like figure out something that you can do

that's on offense to get that feeling you know like all oftentimes just if I see someone that's the same age as my mother in front of me in line I'll go on offense and I'll be like hey I lost my mom and I don't get to buy her stuff would you mind if I like bought your coffee right I'll just like live that way

and when you live that way crazy stuff happens like crazy stuff and you're just like kind of in the flow and putting your like tokens in and the downside of it is sometimes you look stupid sometimes sometimes you're like ah it's really weird man no

you're like okay I'm gonna just I'm out of here then I'm not gonna wait for my coffee but like you're running out of the store crying I'm out I'm like no wait but has that ever happened to you like has it ever gone badly has anyone had a bad reaction probably not right

Sometimes they just don't even know what's going on and they get confused and strangers every once in a while. But when you're playing with this openness, like a story that happens to me, I was playing, I had a show in Boston, and I went to go get breakfast near the place, and four ladies walked in that were about the age of my mother. And it's always a little bit delicate,

because I don't know, something about like when you're right next to the venue that you're playing, I didn't want to come off like a big shot. But I had this feeling that was, you should go pay for their breakfast. And I'm sitting at the table, like, you know what? Usually I would just do that, but just being next to, I don't know, it feels like I'm trying to, like, brag or something.

Yeah, sure, sure. So I let it go. And then it comes up again, like, pretty strong in me that, like, yo, you need to go do that. And I am now just eating eggs and having a whole situation. And I'm, like, sweating and confused as to why this is, like, such a big deal, trying to let it go. But I have this strong urge that I should go make a connection with these people. Finally, I just go, like, give into it.

walk over and I say, listen, my mom passed away. One of the things I like to do for her is just pay for women's breakfast sometimes. It would mean a lot to me around her age if you would let me take care of your breakfast this morning. And the lady on the left just starts bawling. And she says, like,

I lost my son. He's about your age. Oh, my God. So we stand up. I'm just like bawling with a stranger. Oh, my gosh. I'm crying too. I have not lost my own, but I'm crying. Grief doesn't have to be something that hits you when you're not ready for it like you can you can go ahead and go on it i tell everybody that's

going through the loss of someone like what do they love do they love like bread like their thing was to make bread set days and make bread and give it out like go on offense to be to be a part of it and get this really sweet feeling of remembering them that's really beautiful and i really i have to say in all of my my sort of like thinking pondering meditations in the afterlife um because we've all lost somebody, if not many people, especially these days. This idea of playing, what did you say? You said playing offense or going on offense with grief. Like that's, I don't know. I really like that. There's also a really sweet behind quote about service done in the name of someone who's passed helps them. Yeah. And so every time that I attribute something or that I've learned and I throw my mom's

name on it or speak on her behalf or do something kind on her behalf. It's also like if you're trying to give a really big gift to someone in different ways, whether it's of your time or actually anything, to do it in honor of someone who's passed makes it easier for the person to accept. Right? Because a lot of times when you're trying to do something for someone in this society we're like, nah, I'm good, I'm cool. That's too much. But you say like, hey, listen, this is the only way that I can give gifts to my mother is to do it on her behalf. I want to be of service to you in honor of my mother. It's a little bit more like, yeah, okay. All right. Got me. Yeah. You mentioned talking to the medium and receiving like pretty direct messages from your mom.

But I'm wondering if you've had any experiences like that without a medium, just on your own, feeling her really directly in that way. So before she left, we made a deal that anytime I hear Billy Joel, it's her. Because I like, think of her when I hear Billy Joel. And yeah, to kind of, kind of what Navajo was saying, like, it happens, and then you have to allow it to hit you, because you're like, can that be real? The first time I heard it was me and my wife's anniversary, and she was pregnant, and Uptown girl was on when we went into the restaurant, and it was a girl that we were having,

and it was just like, you can explain that away if you want. if you want to I heard it doing promo on the release of my record in New York City I'm like alone before I go into the mayhem of sitting in all these rooms

having people ask me questions I'm alone in a coffee shop just like taking my own space and I hear Billy Joel on the radio as my record's about to come out just like I can explain it away if we want to there's reasons but it's actually really really sweet

I just did a writing trip to Montana and the three songwriters picked me in the car and we're heading there and we're stopping to get groceries because we're staying in this cabin to write songs and in the grocery store Billy Joel is on and I'm like, oh, I'm sorry,

I need to tell you all that my mom writes all the songs with me and this is her just like saying what's up because we're about to go write a bunch of stuff. I just need you to know that like she's here. This is her thing. Don't get weirded out. This is what we're going to do.

I feel like this is all going to culminate with you one day or maybe have you ever met Billy Joel? I haven't yet, but I'm in. I'd love to It's gonna happen He actually showed up on the set of Gossip Girl one day I barely recall it

It was just in passing It was in the street It was in the city You know And he was just sort of like He certainly owned the city More than our show did But it was a funny interaction

Between two iconic New York entities You know what I mean It was a funny A funny night A really surreal moment But you know I want to ask

I'm thinking about people Who've lost somebody Whether it's now long time ago who really still suffer and I want to appreciate that you still have grief because what you've just painted this the way we've been talking about loss and death and the afterlife we've been laughing and we've been crying and it's like and it's but it's joyful it's hopeful it's so alive it's crackling with energy you know not everybody feels that not everybody perceives that totally and and and and I'm sure those of us who still have these

convictions there have to be moments where you doubt there have to be moments where it's cold and you're struggling with the with the visceral loss of your mother like anyone else would and so can you maybe share a little bit about those moments and like if and how and when it's like you you know you take steps towards this other this other feeling you have yeah what's really interesting is that you never want to be a buzzkill at least i don't and so there's oftentimes where you want to let other people know how lucky they are. But you realize, like,

I could say that to you right now. You know, over the holidays, people are with their family, their friends. You, like, see them all together. You bump into a whole family together. And you do the mental math of, like, well, this make you feel better or this just, like, totally ruin the mood.

If I, like, can mirror back to you what you might be taking for granted right now. and I usually choose not to because I don't think it'll help sometimes every once in a while but a lot of times like oh no no that's just for me that's for me to know and that's a sad

situation to be in to just like really see it in see what other people have and then miss it for yourself and realize there's like you know there's just a truth to missing someone physically me and my mom push it pretty far spiritually

but there is a truth to not being able to hang out with her with my daughters or she was an incredibly powerful woman pick her brain on things from an adult perspective yeah yeah there's deep deep sadness for sure I had an experience so after my mom died she died very suddenly we weren't expecting it we weren't prepared when you were saying that you were like the quietest person at the table

my thing was before she died I had like a great love for life I would say it was like a character and after she died for like two years I was very sad and like very dim I would say yeah and um and one thing that I had like always I wouldn't say like prided myself on but what I like cherished the most in my life and continue to is the feeling that I have a very close relationship with God that like nothing could shake that that has always been like my priority and I've always made time for it and I've always like organized my life around that relationship and in the years after my mom died I was like keeping myself like far away from him in a way like I still like fulfilled certain things that

I considered obligations but I was like hurt is is how I felt and I also felt like guilty like I'm not allowed to be hurt but I'm like hurt that he took her and didn't let me say goodbye and I think that that was like part of the dimness it was both like missing my mom and missing a relationship with God that was in my hands to correct but I didn't want to sorry this is like so intense but I was working at the UN a year and a half after she died and I was at a conference in Switzerland and there was a medium there and I had met him before. I had met him like in another place but I like sort of don't generally like try not to talk to mediums and have sort of gone back and forth on that whole thing but he approached me

and he was like can we go for a walk and so we went for a walk and he said I can see your mom and she's telling me that you're grieving too much and that the time for grieving has passed and now is the time for a new chapter in this relationship and it needs to be light and you need to remember all of the joy and all of the love and you have to find a way to cultivate that relationship with her because it's too heavy for too long and she doesn't feel like you're drawing on her enough and she has things that she wants to share with you but you're closed and you're not receiving them. And a week later, I was back in New York and one of my roommates who I wasn't very close with, I was like waiting for me at home and was like, I had a, she was like,

can we talk? And she was like, I had a vision of your mom this morning when I was praying. Her office had a prayer room. And she said, please tell Nava that she needs to ask me more questions and like draw me into her life more. So I was like, oh my God, like I can't deny it. Like coming from both a medium and like a person that I lived with but wasn't very close with. I was like, okay, this is like obviously real and it was such a turning point for me to also like let go of that like burden and to feel like I had permission to like enjoy life again and then it also helped me sort of like open the channels in my relationship with God and and I started asking my mom questions and so one of the things that happened was I was at this like conference for the UN and I was staying at a

hotel room in Boston it was like a cold winter night I had like a really painful shoulder injury I was like really confused about a lot of things and I was like mom like please tell me about my future like what should I be focusing on I'm like confused I don't I don't really know what my next steps should be and I like prayed and in my meditation I felt really strongly and my background is education diplomatic work um I felt really strongly that my mom communicated to me your future is in media and you should pay attention to this and so the next day I like went to my boss and I asked him if I could start following the discourse on media at the UN and I didn't like give him a reason and he was like sure if you think that's a good idea like do it and

through that I like connected with pen like my whole life just went in this different direction that I'm in now and it's because I listened like I asked and I listened and I received it and I acted on it even though I didn't understand it and had no background in it so for me like I I know that it's real I know that they're there and they want to help us but there's also like we play a part in receiving it and and being open to it so it's your mom who got me into all this yeah it's my mom's like damn it she'd say beautiful but don't you She overplay that car She'd say

She'd be with you She don't ever Forget that part She'd say You are so much stronger That you even think you are Let your heart Leave the way

That's what she'd say Ooh That's what she'd say That's what she'd say And we'll be right back. Grandma Kathy? Yeah. Yeah.

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Japanese and more. Rosetta Stone is the go-to tool for real language growth. A lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages so you can learn as many as you want whenever you want. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Podcrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com slash podcrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't us out, go to rosettastone.com slash podcrush and start learning today. Tell us a little bit about how you were brought up. I was raised as a Baha'i, very spiritual. Both my parents, my dad's a children's singer.

He's amazing. My mom and him wrote the songs together. So I grew up in a really creative songwriting household where they were willing to, you know, ride the line, financially. to make that be what they did as they're like to make the money which is a pretty cool slash stressful sometimes place to live but awesome so they wrote together for your and your father was the like the sort of musical face of it or they yeah and so the songs are like with two wings which is all about the equality of men and women and and i kind of grew up in a house that was doing this pulling ideas from spiritual stuff and trying to make it not sound cheesy and for kids which is really sweet

and I've only later come across come to realize like oh that was really cool I just like take for granted things that you get and so I was the only Baha'i in my high school and so culturally I was always a little bit trying to figure out how I can make you feel comfortable about me and you grew up in New York Andy

just for context yeah I grew up in New York yeah but I was like good enough at sports and good enough at things to just like socially to kind of like hang and be cool. But there was always like, I want to tell you about the Baha'i faith, but I know that you're going to think that's weird. So how can I do this in a way? So there's a little bit of self-consciousness that I wish wasn't there,

but there definitely was. My latest release and my record that has a lot of music about wanting to get over that. It's really funny to talk about like middle school and then where I'm at now. I feel like I'm dealing with some of that stuff right now in my music. about like I just can't my first single that came out was damn it feels good to be me which is all about I'm not good at other things

I'm not good at like trying to be sexy I'm not good at being mysterious I don't know if you can tell mystery is the first thing I thought when you jumped on I'm not like a mysterious guy if you come to one of my shows it's like literally seven to 70

huge crowd very diverse and I think when you grow up in a culture where that kind of you don't even know that's where you're aiming, that the culture is pulling you in this direction that you think maybe you're supposed to be to really just be who you are is kind of a courageous act,

kind of a rebellious act to double down on who you are. And I think that I definitely didn't have that in middle school by any stretch of the imagination. It's like the time when we're actually most challenged to be ourselves in a way.

It's like the first time you really have an opportunity to be yourself and therefore you're like what does that mean what is that you know for anyone that aspires spiritually

from any front you want to talk your a Muslim Christian boot it like all of it that doesn't always that like pretty much doesn't align with the culture so then what do you do

and how do you where do you land with all these things was just like an interesting struggle And what we really want is someone to double down and go like, no, this swam, this makes me happy. I love this. This is what I'm about. And when you're confident and open about that, the world usually goes like, oh, that's pretty cool. It's when you go like, no, no, no, no, we can play beer pong.

I just got to fill mine with root beer. And it's going to be great. That's when it's like, okay, dude. You're confusing me right now and I'm confused. Yeah. Andy, a lot of our stories that have come in are about people's, like, first time they had a crush and how they, like, approach the person first rejection, kind of awkward things. I want to tell a sweet story. I don't know if you remember this. And then I want to hear what you were like in middle school. But Andy and I met when we were, I think, 19, at an artist's retreat that our friend Ariana Caramelis organized.

Do you remember this was like in her basement, her dad, George, and your mom, Kathy, facilitated it. And it was like seven of us or something. It was this amazing weekend in New Jersey, in Morristown, New Jersey. And Andy was dating this really sweet girl I'll just call X because don't have her permission to say her name But it's Diane You're gonna say it okay She doesn't care Right so we'll say it never fine

Shut up to Diana Cool Diane This wonderful wonderful girl named Diane Anyway so one night we were like at a diner I had like just gotten to know Andy and Diane And I the group has sort of were at two tables And I'm at the table with Andy and Diane And Diane asks me

She says no Andy asked me He's like if someone gave you like a little porcelain pig. Do you remember this, Andy? I do not at all. I'm very excited. He's like, if someone gave you a little porcelain pig, would you be upset? If a guy you liked gave you a little porcelain pig, would you be upset? And I was like, no, as long as he didn't say, it reminded him of me. And then they, but like, Andy and Diane, like, both lost it because Andy had given

Diane this little porcelain pig, but said that it reminded him of her. And I just thought it was like this very sweet, like, Andy's like so earnest and sincere and, like, couldn't put together why that would, like, offend the girl. It was a very sweet, happy pig. So I'm just curious, and I know, like, the story of you and Diane, you, like, wrote her this song, like, went up to her porch. It was like a very sweet story. So maybe tell us a little bit of what you were like as a middle schooler trying to impress girls. And what was your go-to move?

Oh, my God. My go-to move. I had no moves. Did you play music then? I mean, have you always played music? I started playing music. I thought I was going to be in the NBA. Oh, really?

You know, clearly. That's bold. So you are confident I'm confident and I can be like get kind of obsessed about something and so even from a young age

I just put all that into sports wait sorry I'm just gonna say one more thing at that artist meeting and it was like a small group

but everyone was very talented and we the whole weekend we called Andy Mr. Tolento because he was so good at everything and it was like

kind of annoying so we're like making a joke of him or else like this guy who's like better than us at everything you're very talented

so it's not just it's not delusional confidence and he's just legitimately good at a lot of things. Well, it's funny. I love... She doesn't say this to everybody. No, I don't know. She's never said that to me. Yeah, nor me. But I've tried to gather about myself,

especially as my, like, in my coming in like the middle school in high school years was, I love okay, so the base version of it is impressing people. Like, I love to impress. Totally, yeah. So that means that I learned magic, like put a lot of time

into magic because that's super fun. Literally magic, yeah. You're talking, like, sleight of hand cards and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, wait, were you... Did you do this in middle school? Yeah, I did, like, parties. Wow.

I, like, went for it. I love... Hold on, wait. Wait, you were, like, you did parties, like, people could hire you? Yeah, three teens magic. We had business cards, and then we would, like, accost people. Where we grew up, there was, like, a big outdoor mall called the Woodbury Commons. And we had, like, one of those big cameras.

We're trying to be, like, David Blaine. And we'd roll around and just like, can I do a trick for you? Oh, that guy That is so cute Yeah And then I thought Maybe I wanted to be an actor Because that seemed like

Another way to impress people And sports to some degree It's very hard I wouldn't recommend Generally No I'm just kidding No no no It's brutal

That's why I didn't do I went for two years To theater In Binghamton So I did two years of acting Thinking maybe that was it And then I realized like Oh

I want to move you like the surface version of this is I want to impress you and then the deep soul version is I want to move you to look higher or to feel something or to help you or to be of service or something like that and so I realized that with acting I wasn't super interested in saying other people's words

you know I'm like oh no no I don't want to do what you I don't want you to tell me what to say I want to write the thing and then and I didn't think I could write a script because that sounded insane and impossible So I was always writing like writing three minute songs in between whatever scene we were doing

for some Greek tragedy thing I would like oh what I really want to do is write these songs and so like that that was a lot of my middle school and high school was just messing with that thing of like I'm going to learn juggling because I think that makes people happy I'm going to learn this I'm going to learn like I love the acquiring of a skill

and then giving it to someone and bringing them joy I love so there's like a ton of that in my middle school in high school years. Any crushes? Oh, yeah, tons of crushes. I think it was always awkward because when you grow up in a religious household, you're kind of clear that you're not supposed to do

the thing that society tells you you're supposed to do. So I waited until marriage to have sex, and so that just makes like a hilarious situation. Hilarious! Like, oh, yeah, I have a song called Holding Out, which is all about like waiting until marriage to have sex, which is... So in right now.

You know, right on that line of like, oh, my God, are so lame or this is interesting and I like to try to go into that space and see if I can get out alive. I'm like a daredevil creatively in that way that I like to like try to go into these areas where many people have died before. To me it's like the Indiana Jones thing where he like goes in and he's like he's got the weight and he's trying to get the jewel off to put the weight just at the same time and I'm like oh that could come off horribly but also could be really powerful. And so that's kind of, I dared myself to write that song. So back to the crushes. It was just always weird. You always know like there's not an end point that you,

that's going to go correct here. Unless we get married. Okay. Well, we're both in eighth grade. Are we going to get married? We kind of know that there's some like restrictions here to how this is going to go. And so I was always kind of awkward. It's like you're like, it sounds like you're talking about buying a house that you're definitely not going to buy. That's what it felt like to me. Or maybe just with no money. Yeah, and I have no money. But do you want to go look at this house? Sure, I guess.

I love to buy that house. Like, you're super hot and this is super fun and I'm interested, but like I don't have any money. So, which I actually don't think is a horrible way to feel in eighth grade, but it does make it very difficult. Yeah, just very difficult to be like at peace. I have a lot of empathy specifically for boys because it was my experience for that and then that relationship to porn is like brutal right now. As a young boy, you're like, this is what you're supposed to do. The culture tells you you're supposed to go, like, bag a bunch of chicks, like, do it. And then you have this internal sense of like, oh, I don't think that's what I'm supposed to do.

But let's go to a middle school or high school dance where that's kind of what we think we're supposed to. It's just very confusing and difficult. Oh, yeah. Totally. This is actually, I've told Nava and Sophie some or, you know, mentioned it a lot in the context of us developing this podcast because those are the years where you start to have all these feelings. Of course, it's natural. And for me, one of the greatest challenges, I think, really, as a boy becoming a man, was just all of the conceptions of sexuality, you know, we could refer to as heteronormativity, but just like the idea of how it seemed like I should be behaving versus how I felt. It was like a huge dissonance between them. And it was always a cause of pain and feeling alienated, you know, because there was no space to talk about this. Of course I was not going to talk to my 12, 13, 14 year old friends.

about this, you know, as we were all becoming indoctrinated into some form of a porn addiction, you know, which is just like sort of latent and accepted in our culture, which is insane, you know. And it's just like, that's the water in which we all swim. It's the air that we breathe, you know. The same way that white people need to understand whiteness more, I think men need to understand masculinity more, you know. Yeah. And it's, and there's still, you know, for all of the lip service that's being given to it, which is still a good thing, I think.

But I still don't feel like there's a lot of space, I guess, for lack of. for a better word? Yeah. Or, like, in particular, young boys to talk about it. I think there's also a lot of cultural gaslighting. Like, it's interesting. Penn didn't grow up in a religious household, but still felt, like, uncomfortable with the extremely sexual identity that he was supposed to embody, especially as an actor.

And in which I really had, like, license to express if I wanted it, you know, as I grew older because of what I did. I think that there is, like, a sort of cultural gaslighting of, like, if you feel like, this doesn't make me feel good, I don't want to have. these this like string of relationships or this porn addiction makes it harder for me to enjoy real intimacy with my actual human partner or you know like there's no room for you to say that if you say that you're oppressive you're not progressive you're not supporting sexual liberation like there's no there's literally no space to have the conversation there is like a predominant view

and it is the correct one and if you're not with it like there's something wrong with you and that's very hard like that's a very hard space to navigate yeah and i think it being growing up as a boy it's like so loose the culture thing is so interesting it's so loose there's not even like clear directives you just kind of understand that like if you can get the hot girl

to want to have sex with you that's you win but not instead do you just like doesn't make sense doesn't make sense but that is like the thing that's just like pulling you this way and you don't even know why it's a lot to handle as a young guy

to like know what you're supposed to do there's not a ton of models that are at that age, at least, that you have to look to. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big, without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% mongolet and cashmere from 50,000. dollars, that's right, $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim,

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Wish You Pain I think is really stunning It's in the wheelhouse of what we're talking about now I'm just going to read a few of the lyrics Like, I hope your doubts Come like monsters and terrorize your dreams I hope you feel the lonely hopelessness Because no one else believes

I hope you question whether you ever really had a chance at all I hope your fear is thick like poison that gets into your blood i hope you push into you cannot breathe and it's still not enough i hope you put your life out on the line and everybody watches while you fall and then you say because i love you more than you could know and your heart it grows every time it breaks i know that it might sound strange but i wish you pain Yep. This is all ripped from Abdulabaha, by the way. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.

Super ripped. You just stole. I was pulling up the quote. I wanted to try to write a song about this incredible quote, which goes, you know, we just read a bunch of stuff. But the more difficulties one sees in the world, the more perfect one becomes. The more you plow and dig the ground,

the more fertile it becomes. The more you cut the branches of a tree, the higher and stronger it grows. and then he ends by saying there's more awesome, go read it, it's incredible therefore I am happy that you have had great tribulations and difficulties for this I am very happy

that you have had many sorrows strange it is that I love you and still I am happy that you have sorrows I was like oh my God what a sweet way to look at life through like a grounded optimism that no matter what is happening to you it is building you

like that is so great and it's funny because it's not growing up a Baha'i I thought that was just like a known thing and so we went to radio with this song and I spent so much time with different radio programs

they're like what are you talking about dude yeah please tell us more because like that I can only imagine I've done so much press in my life and I play serial killer where I'm just talking about that side of death you know and like you know just what

are some of those rooms like when when somebody's like a like on the radio they're like so andy tell us about your uh you're a three minutes single you have 30 seconds exactly and what i would do this is kind of my mode of how i got this idea across and i did it in um all my meet and greets as well on my last tour which was just unbelievable but basically in my meet and greet I would say I lost my mom when I was 25 it blew me apart and gave me like a superpower of empathy and like empathy I that I could see the level to which some people were struggling, which I could not see before, just impossible. Life had been fairly easy.

So I go through this incredibly difficult thing, and then it gives me this power of empathy eyes. I dare everyone in this room in this meet and greet right now to step forward, share the thing that you went through that was so crazy that broke you, and then tell me what that turned you into. So I did that with my meet and greet, and then I did it with all the radio station programmers.

and we did all these like they did it everybody does it it was awesome yeah i think that's the best part about that concept is it's so easily proved like almost anybody can think back on their life and do that and i'll tell you the the one that like stays with me forever and i tell the story a bunch is so we did all this and then on stage every night i have had on the last tour i had a spoken word artist who's awesome sean hill uh and we'd pull someone out of the crowd we'd sit them on a chair and we'd say like I'd ask them this question and they would share it in front of it. They would share it in front of an audience.

Wow. And then while they were doing that, my head is like thinking of what the hook is lyrically to your personal specific story. And they would share and they would end and I would like pick a different musician each night. I'd be like, all right, start. And the guitar player would start playing something

and the band would start playing. And then like a chord progression, then Sean Hill would start freestyle poetry encouraging what they've been through and then when the hook came I would write a hook and if it was simple enough and sweet enough and to the point

then I would cut out the band and just point to the audience and the audience would sing this little hook that we made up that was tailored specifically for this person on stage so it was like a really awesome thing that we did every night and for the most part it worked and the first night we do it I bring someone on stage and it's this couple actually

and they come up and they say we put our six month old boy down for a nap and he never woke up and I'm sitting on stage like I have made the biggest mistake in history there's no way that you come back from that that is the most brutal thing I could ever think of

I wanted to run away and hide and rather than write some song I'm abort get me out of here and they keep talking and they say same thing, it was the worst two years that you could ever imagine like the most intense darkness and now we are the people

that the hospital calls when it happens to other people. So like we're the ones that go in and console. So crazy. We're the ones and we do, it's like the most amazing work we've ever done in our lives because no one wants to hear from anyone

that hasn't been through that. Wow. Makes me think of that story. It's, famous lore, the story of Lely and Mijnouin. Mijun is in love with Lely and he's searching for her and in the story it says he's he's searching for her so intensely he's like looking he's holding the sand in the desert in his hands and watching it pour through. He's looking for her everywhere. He can't find her and he starts to be chased by a watchman and it seems like at first

it's dangerous for him. It seems like it's a hardship and he's chasing him through the city and Majnoon is running away from him trying to get to safety, and then he ends up scaling a wall. And on the other side, he finds Lely. The moral of the story is that this watchman who seemed dangerous and terrible for Majanun ended up leading him to what he was searching for at the entire time. There's so much wisdom to that. I feel like your song is just the other side of the coin. Yeah, like how sweet if no matter what happens in your life, it's making you grow. It's like pretty hard to be too bummed out if you see everything that way.

mean that it doesn't hurt like hell. That doesn't mean that I don't miss my mom and just like pull off the side of the road and cry sometimes. It just means there's a purpose to it that I really love. As we've said, like we're all Baha'is and in the Baha'i faith, I think that there's a somewhat unique emphasis on humility. Like this is present in every religion and I think, you know, culturally at times it's valued, at times it doesn't. So I was just wondering how you both keep yourselves in check and have you learned anything that like for anyone else in the industry who wants to be successful and wants to stay humble like is are there any practical tips you first my friend um making this podcast has kept me pretty humble um how so i wish you could see i'm surrounded

by dirty mattresses somewhere in the sticks in upstate new york and i feel like life keeps us humble also again with this idea that that the purpose of this life is you know let me go ahead and tell you about the purpose of life that's it's is in my understanding in my own language is something like you know we're here to to develop spiritual attributes something like qualities of becoming a champion of justice a searcher for truth you know um to develop mercifleness and patience and forgiveness and steadfastness courage you know that just the list goes on and on and on there we're here to develop those kinds of qualities and therefore the best way to do that

is in relationship with others and then the way and then actually understanding that you know the science behind healthy relationships is humility you know so it's like

I think being in relationships keeps you humble my wife really keeps me humble my partnership with NAVA keeps me humble she just doesn't ever compliment me that's great are we still talking about humility

I don't know you are you know it's funny because I was while you're talking pulling up mine this is a hidden word. Bahá'u'llah says he's, O son of earth, no verily the heart

wherein the least remnant of envy yet lingers shall never attain my everlasting dominion nor inhale the sweet savers of holiness breathing from my kingdom of sanctity. No verily the heart were in the least remnant.

So you already tried to scoop it out. I know. You tried to get it all out and there's like still little pieces in there of envy yet lingers shall never attain my everlasting dominion. So I'll never attain my everlasting dominion. to me, I remember probably like 10 years ago

I hadn't had any success yet but that doesn't you know, that's like when in L.A. everybody's like looking at each other trying to figure out who's getting the highest and it gets intense. I was in my like crappy apartment on LaBreya and I read that.

I was like, oh cool. I can just like to the, and it doesn't always work but it works a lot of the time for me. When I start to feel envious I just get to go like, oh, that's not real. That's not like it's going to be helpful. That's nothing.

Like flip the switch. Cut it off, let it go. There's enough for everybody here. And that envy is for it. But humility, I think, as an artist, it's like there's so many microcosms of it. Like, and being a writer, like you just kind of know that so much of what you do

is going to suck and you get okay with that. And the only way that you can actually even create is to agree with that. And then pick out the good things that happen when you like just go. So there's a humility to that that is happening every day all the time. And then

before these last two years, I thought I was really good at it. And then I just got super blasted. And it was like such a stark difference between this is your life before COVID and you are being welcomed at this hotel at this really nice suite. And you are doing this.

And then someone, they got your thing here. And so when you take all that, away for almost two years. It's been really interesting to try and parse out for myself, like, cool. There's some shit here that I needed to clean out that was not cool. That was like not good. And we need to get rid of that. And then also, what is actually I'm just allowed to be sad about because I am specifically created to do this thing and I can't do it, so I'm sad. It was like a really weird process to like, I feel like I shed some ego weight over the last two years.

Yeah, I mean, the deal that I have myself, especially my wife is a performer as well, and she's a songwriter, is we just try to stay in, I'm just good enough to do this. Just good enough to do this. When people start to tell me that I'm like so good, they've never seen it before, I go like, cool, cool, cool, cool, just good enough to do this. And then when to do a halftime show and variety puts out an article, it says worst halftime show in the history of half the, I just like, oh, okay, go, cool, cool, cool. I'm just good enough, just good enough, just lucky enough to do this.

And when it's too high or too low, like try to not let too much of that in. But it still gets in sometimes and it's a whole dance. I loved both of your answers. And I was thinking, which one was better? Yeah, yeah. And I was like thinking about the question, I think every spiritual quality requires bolstering by another one. Like if you have another one, it makes that one express more easily or more healthfully.

And I was saying that I think humility really requires a lot of courage. And exactly what you're saying, Andy, like the courage to know that, like, you're going to get something's wrong and you're going to make mistakes. And that's okay and like do it anyway. So even that thing you were saying about like that tightrope of entering that space that's lame and that a lot of people have died, but you want to try it too and see if you can do something meaningful, I think that that requires humility and courage. And also to know that like a particular failure is not who you are and a particular success is not

who you are. So just like keep moving and trying to do things that are. valuable and that are meaningful. And I think that that's also like the beauty of humility is that you can do more, I think, when you're humble rather than less. Yeah. And I think you can create more beautiful art and more radical art and more valuable art when you're humble.

And even as you're talking about just making me think of like also harkening back to like the models and how to do it. Like I think this is where the religions of the world can actually be awesome. Like the one that I think of as we're talking is Abdulbaha, which is the son of Baha'u'llah, and Baha'i Faith, he's incredible. And just when I read stories about him, he's the only one that when I read stories about, I can't help, I can't finish the story. I have to put it down and go do something.

It's like of service or it's literally like, it's like crazy. I can't take it. And so I think that it's good to ingest, I don't know, literature, things about people that are really, really good at this thing. Good advice. The hidden word that you read earlier, Andy, really hit me. It made me think immediately of social media and how, like, the feeling of comparison that it, like, automatically brings up. Yeah.

It really makes me feel for the young people who are so immersed and don't really know a life without that kind of social media. And it makes me want to hold them and just, like, protect them. You mean you don't wish them pain? Yeah. I know. How strange it is that you love them? and you just want to hold them. Yeah, I just want to take care of them, my little hands.

I don't, this is not the sort of human emotion I am accustomed to. But yeah, just like, yeah, it makes me think, what can I do for young people and help them be bold and be themselves? So our sort of our standard closing question is, if you could talk to middle school, Andy, what would you tell him? Hmm. Can I close with a poem? that I would love for him to hear.

Yeah. Okay. I've always dealt with this dance, which I did on this podcast already, which is like, oh, I have these strong convictions, but I'm worried how I'll be perceived. I'm trying to be a spiritual guy in the middle of this culture and trying to make it pure and good and then also palatable.

And what I've found more as I've grown older is like, don't worry about making it palpable. Just be who you are. That's what people want. So I would want my middle school self to hear this from me, which is it is no longer impressive to me to watch these melancholy documentaries, exposing that behind the things we buy, we love, or eat is a bunch of shitty people run by money, sex, and greed. I'm not impressed with the focus that what they say it might be true.

We ignore the beauty of the forest, obsessing on low-hanging fruit. what about my soul? What about this life? What about the infinite space in the sky? What about the galaxies of possibilities swimming in my daughter's eyes? I've been labeled positive, optimistic, the guy that makes the happy music. And while I'm flattered, with these words come with an aftertaste of stupid. As if smart people are the ones who used to smile but learn their lesson, as if the scientific truth of reality is that it's depressing, I do not agree. So if it's stupid to see the good and everything, then hell yeah, call me naive. I love that, Andy.

Thank you for sharing that. Encapsulates everything in a way more eloquent. Like, we should have just played that. That's the episode. Yeah, that's where we cut. Today's listener submitted story is called In the Ebb and Flow. And I'm not going to say too much because this story really speaks for itself. Eight years old, that's how old I was when the doctor's broken news to my stunned family

that my mother had one to two years left to live. We'd known something was off for a while. Short walks exhausted her, and breathing was becoming increasingly laborious and painful for her. I didn't understand what the doctors meant when they said she was suffering from pulmonary hypertension, that the echocardiogram showed her arterial pressure was too high, but my eight-year-old brain definitely understood what one to two years left meant. My parents were shocked and angry at life. I was overcome with fear and depression, scared that at any moment I might lose my mother.

My father had to take care of both of us, which seemed to harden his heart. He was angry all the time. And my mother would spontaneously burst into tears, crying, what will I do? What will my child do? I don't want to leave him this early. I didn't even teach him how cruel life is. She was yelling this stuff all the time. She thought I wasn't listening, but I was.

At school, I would constantly imagine what it would be like to return home and find out that she had passed while I was at school. I cried a lot and would ask God, why her? Why me? And the why me, in particular, would cause my mom to turn inward, blaming herself for what her diagnosis was putting me through. Of course, it wasn't her fault, but I was just a child. I couldn't really understand. A year, and then two passed, and she didn't die. The doctors were wrong.

My mother did end up in several critical situations, including a two-month coma. but she always came back to us. One day we learned that there might be hope, a special surgery. It was risky, but she decided to take that risk, saying, I owe this to my one and only son. Doctors were reassuring, as she went into the operating room. Ultimately, all the surgery did was by her some time. It didn't do much in the way of healing her.

We were heartbroken. But time passed. And I got to my late teens, and then my mother had the worst day of her life. My father took her to the hospital, hoping that everything was going to be okay. But I knew it was hopeless. The light in her eyes just wasn't there anymore. She was suffering too much. She knew I was old enough now, to live without her.

And now my heart hardened. For the first time, I didn't want her to recover. I was sick of worrying about her all the time. I wanted a different life, and I knew that even if it was hard, this would be better for both of us. A week later, the news arrived. She was gone. At first, I didn't feel too much pain. I convinced myself my mother would hate that.

She'd want me to go on. no matter what, and then came the funeral, and every feeling I had shoved aside came rushing out of my eyes like a flood. But after that I was calm, so calm that my dad got angry at me accusing me of not loving her. I didn't argue with him. I knew he was suffering too. It's been five years now, and my dad and I are living together in Turkey. We love her And miss her so much And inspired by that of we march on

You can find Andy Grammer's music on all the major streaming platforms And you can follow him online At Andy Grammer Pod Crushed is hosted by Penn Badgeley, Novacavalin, and Sophie Ansari Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher our lead producer editor and composer is David Ansari. Our secondary editor is Sharaff and Twistle.

This podcast is a ninth mode production. Be sure to subscribe to Podcrush. You can find us on Stitcher, the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials. It's at Podcrush, spelled how it sounds. And our personals are at Pembadjley, at NAVA, that's Nava with three ends, and at Scribble by Sophie. And we're out.

See you next week. Our guest today is the talented, the successful, Andy Grammer. And I want to say, got to put myself on. Penn's iPod is vibrating. Stitcher.