Podcrushed - Ariana Grande (Part 1)

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation with the extraordinarily prolific Ariana Grande, the crew has a wide-ranging conversation on childhood, her Broadway origins, and getting to act alongside her best friends. Ariana shares thoughtful reflections on her time at Nickelodeon and why therapy should be mandatory for all child actors.   For more on music, Eternal Sunshine, BTS on The Boy is Mine MV, and Wicked, check out Part 2.   Follow Podcrushed on socials: TikTok Instagram XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada My grandpa loved to sing too Every time we finished dinner He would sing Good night, I hate to leave you now But have a good time At the end of every single dinner So sweet

Oh my gosh That's really charming Welcome to podcrushed We're hosts I'm Penn I'm Nava And I'm Sophie And I think we would have been your middle school besties Hatching plans to sneak into R-rated

Okay, who am I getting? PG-13 rated movies. Well, if you've clicked on this episode, then you might know what's coming. I suppose that's true for all of them. The one thing that's different. Amazing, start. We're all the great to start.

Just you wait. There's more. We have today the one, the only, Ariana Grande. You might know her most famously from starring alongside me in a music video. I'm the boy's mind video. I played the cat.

Yeah, she played the cat. I don't know if you remember that part. She's got a new record out It's been out for a little bit now Even newer down the pipeline Is wicked So we're talking about her whole life But you know

We just we get into sadder You're going to want to know about that Oh boy do we New depths of Saturn New depths Yeah please please stick around You're not going to want to miss this one Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored?

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Now, so you don't miss an episode. All right. Well, in addition to introducing my socks, we have with us Ariana Grande. Thank you. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming.

I'm so excited. I'm honored and I'm excited. We're so excited. We're just going to dive right in. We typically start around 12. From what I understand, you had, Now, this may or may not be true. We'll know if our research is it?

I'm scared. Wait, wait, wait. Before we actually dive right in, I do think we have to address how different this episode is. No, it's so different. From all of our other episodes. I've seen them and I'm like, where are you talking about? In which way? Well, I walked in.

Is it my socks? That's it. It is. We can see Penn songs. It's that. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, is this a new setup for season three?

Yeah. It's a new set up for you. Yeah. That's crazy. That's so nice. Well, we're doing, we're doing sort of one-offs this year. You know, we just sort of like, we vibe to our guests. And you warrant a giant wooden studio built in probably the 1980s or 70s when this was necessary to record music.

I'm deeply on it. It's so cool. I was like, wow, rebranding. What's going on? Like, this is so fun. All wood, all the time. Matthew Hessey is going to cry. When he hears you say like this for his episode, you had like that makeshift wardrobe where he was like, Penn, are you trapped in?

It definitely looks like a kill room. That little cottage of mine that I have not redecorated. It's a place that I typically am in for the remote interviews when we're on Zoom. How fun, but this is extraordinary. This is a much bigger killroom. Wow, thank you. I'm glad you thought of me for this. Thank you so much.

Wow. I can hear things differently. I mean, out of the headphones just sounds, yeah. I've always loved recording studios. I absolutely love them. And I'm interested in, like, your relationship to that. But we'll get into that. First, is this true or false?

Did you have a screen name Jim Carrey Fan 42? That's true. Is this true? Absolutely true. Well, he was 42 at the time. Okay. So that's where the number came from because Jim Carrey fan was taken. So I had to put a number and it was 42 because that was his age.

And I believe that year I should stop, but I'll tell you, I had a birthday party for him. For him. For him. For him. Was he there? No, he couldn't make it. But I was, uh, yeah. What's his birthday?

Do you remember? I actually don't remember now, but the weirdest thing. The most, what? Give me a chance. The most cosmic thing is it actually happened to be when I announced my album, Eternal Sunshine, which is obviously named after the movie. And I announced it on his birthday, coincidentally. Wow.

And you still don't remember what that date is. No. Oh. I don't remember still. Something with a seven in it. Something with a seven. Ariana, who came to the Jim Carrey birthday that you hosted? My friend Aaron Simon Gross.

Okay. I love it. Who's still my best friend. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Did you guys do like Jim Carrey themed things? No, we just watched the movies and I think my mom had like Jim Carrey themed things. That's very cute.

We had like the mask. My mom had like little like paper masks. That's very cute. So your mom was very supportive? Yes. She's always been very supportive of all of my, yeah, obsessions. So what age was this, though? Are you, were you 12 or 10?

Well, I don't know. I think I was, well, if he was 42, I must have been, I have no idea. I don't know. I don't know how old he is now, so I don't know. But you had a screen name. But yeah, that was my screen. So, like, that was. So I was young and it was like one of my first screen names.

I remember, I was a little bit about you because I feel like not many 10 or 12-year-old girls would choose that as a screen name. Yeah. Yes. I was always a little off I was always a little different No but you remember the days when like you would have a few screen names Yeah absolutely yeah that was like the cool thing

In Away messages and like rainbow fonts Like certain people could change the fonts It was in that era it was like that Those days Yeah that was yeah that that's where we're starting That is where we're starting Well do you think that that I mean you know your relationship to comedy Is to me

A really interesting one You know I don't think you've ever left it personally. I feel like it's in your music in just the right amounts. You know what I mean? Your appearances on SNL are pretty show-stopping and phenomenal. Thank you.

And then of course, you know, you started not much later than 12 like doing these comedy shows. Was that was I mean, what did you think of comedy then? Was it your favorite thing? Was it related to you as a performer?

Yeah, I think first of all, thank you. That's so nice. But I loved comedy first. I mean, I loved singing first and foremost. But I remember that comedy always gave me a different feeling than singing did. Singing, I think, takes itself so seriously. And I love laughing so much.

Like there's something about making a person laugh that's like, we're comfortable. We trust each other. We're here. Like laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me. So, yeah, I don't know. I it was always something I loved a lot and then I think when pop sort of took over for a while I lost a little bit of like that light and I kind of like I missed it I think subconsciously in a very big way um so yeah I don't know looking forward to kind of I'm glad you said that you could hear it a tiny bit in the music because I don't like to take things too seriously in some of my more like playful pop songs I think it's a nice you know place to. put some comedy sometimes but yeah thank you i don't know yeah i know i really i really i really hear it especially um i don't know if you remember this the first time i dmd you about this well yes it was about this

but what but what i the way i shot my shot was um i i i said that uh that shut up is one of the best like pop openers of an album of the last probably 10 or 20 years i really love it and it's so funny but it's so well crafted thank you and that to me again like that you could go on SNL as you do okay so fine so somebody can be funny but that you yeah to me I just I've always heard it in the music so I think it's really cool it's not easy to do my mind I couldn't believe

that you had like heard my music or I've been watching you forever I would have to live under a rock which I nearly do but I've still heard your music well thank you but also to lead with that like that's so that's like whoa this is too much for me thank you that Penn also the interesting thing about him is that he's incapable of

lying so if he's going to write to you with something that he likes that you've done you know it's true it was really hard for me to start doing ads at first in the podcast I was like I had to figure out how to get behind this ad I remember one time when I didn't have the time I took like an hour to record right I won't say for which one I won't say for which one it took me an hour like of time I did not have yeah anyway can I say what's my intention behind me where do I look where am I coming from in this in this ad. It wasn't about acting.

It was like, I'm saying something about this product that, like, I need to believe in some way. Otherwise, like, oh, can I say this? His out is usually, and that's why Sophie loves. He's like, so never, what do you think about? That's so funny. We'll have to cut that. But, all right, and I just want to say one thing, it'll take us out of the time period. But there's an SNL skit you did where I think it was like title was having power outage or something.

and you had to do all the different singers. Yeah. It's one of my favorites. It's one of my favorite skits and I watch it like honestly like 10 times a year and I show it to anyone that I'm trying to impress. Like I know we're going to laugh together. You know, so there's like a cute guy. I'm like, have you seen this skit.

Oh my God. Yeah. And anyone that I want to think that I have good taste in like humor. I just, and it always hits. People always love it. And a lot of people don't know you're that funny. So it's like unexpected. But I just love it.

It's so good. Thank you. I was so bummed because some people thought that I was lip syncing. in some of the, in some of them. Because you're that good. No, that was Shakira. I was like, I'm upset, but thank you. I was like, well, I'm offended and thanks.

No, I'm kidding. But yeah, thank you. That's fun. It was, I love, I love doing SNL. I, um, yeah, it's so thrilling. It's so much fun. And there are so many things that get cut to that are so ticklish. And it's just fun to be in that building.

It's so fast and everyone's so creative and funny and brilliant. It's just, it's fun. You're recent with Bowen-Yang when you guys did the Moulan Rouge, but it was crazy hysterical. The most fun I've ever had in my life. I almost didn't make it through any of it. I love Bowen-Yang so much. He's so brilliant.

He's so beautiful and wicked. I can't wait for people to see. Oh, he's in wicked too. We have a whole section. We got to jump back. We're in this room. My other screen name is Bowen-Yang fan. At 30.

I don't know. So let's go back to you growing up. Like, was your household, I mean, because you're just, I mean, even more now, it just feels to me like it's so clear you're a performer through and through. Was it a performing household? I mean, where does it come from? What were your parents like?

Yes. So my parents are kind of polar opposite, but if you know me, it kind of makes sense knowing them and then how I came about. Because my mom is like business. She's also very creative and talented, but she does. I mean, she's the CEO of a company that designs and manufactures.

like telecommunication equipment like PAs for like ferries and like yeah so it's very different and my dad is sort of the more creative one he does architectural design and photography and graphic design and he paints and you know so I'm kind of smack in the middle of the two of them but um my brother was in a lot of theater and in a lot of school shows growing up he was on Broadway and um so it was a very theatrical household even though the only two who have pursued it are Frankie and me but my mom was always

singing and doing karaoke nights and my dad was always singing as well and my grandpa love to sing too every time we finished dinner he would sing good night I hate to leave you now but have a good time at the end of every single dinner. So sweet

oh my gosh yeah that's really charming yeah he was the best did any of them have anything like a voice like yours? I mean, I think so, but I love them. I don't know. My grandpa had big belt, like he'd sing along to Frank Sinatra with all his heart. And my mom has a beautiful voice.

My dad loves to sing and has a beautiful voice. He's a beautiful heart. And he's a beautiful painter. My Aunt Mayer is in a band as well. My Aunt Mayer is a musician. My Uncle Craig, they have a band. That's on my dad's side. and my cousin

Hallie is a singer so lots of art but my parents were not pursuing it was that an answer I don't even remember my question but I asked her question sorry I'm long-winded well that made me curious

because you said Frankie was into performing he was on Broadway and I feel like if you have an older sibling who is really good at something or pursuing something sometimes that makes a younger sibling shy away from it but it sounds like that to know my idol yeah I looked up to him so much

and I still do, he's amazing but he went to Milenberg and I loved seeing him in his shows there and even before then he went to Pinecrest and I would see him in those shows too and yeah, I was always his biggest fan and I was like, I want to do that.

That's so sweet. You've talked a lot about your Nona. Your Nona is on your new album and I'm curious, what was your relationship with her like when you were little? Like how much of an influence did she have in your life? Oh my gosh. I mean my grandparents,

my whole family has always been so supportive, but in the healthiest way, not pushy. Like, my mom wasn't a stage mom. She was the first person to get me where I wanted to go. Like, if I was like, I would love to go to this audition, she would take me there and make sure I was prepared and support me. But she never told me that it was what I should be doing because she thought I was talented or because, you know,

she was like, are you sure? My family was very supportive but very protective as well. But my grandparents, my Nona actually saw the ad in the newspaper to sing the national anthem at the Panthers game and she took me for my audition. So, no one was very supportive to. Were you eight or nine then? I think I was eight, yeah. Wow. So that was your first, was that your first audition and first performance?

I think that was my first public performance, yeah. I was eight. I don't know what I would have done before. Other than like playing the bumblebee in my school play, which I did. And I worked a nice little bit in there I improved it, I didn't tell anyone I was going to do it Got a big laugh, I was very proud That's brave, Eddie?

Yeah, I think I was just supposed to fly by and exit And I, before I did, I ripped the little stinger off of my costume And I stung the lead character and I flew off unprompted But I'm talking really young That's improv and also like ruined a costume That's bold and I'm sorry This is my public apology to the costume department.

Yeah, they've been waiting. The preschool. Sorry. You should know that I once sang the national anthem also at like a local, it was a AAA baseball game in Washington State. Why haven't I seen this? Well, it's not on record. He paid someone to bury the footage.

You know, this is not a lie. I forgot the words in the middle. Oh, my goodness. It's a tricky one. Yeah, doesn't it feel like it can kind of like go in so close? It can't. It can fake you out. Wait, so what did you do, Penn? Did you hum?

No, so I really just, in the middle, I just forgot that word. Which word? I don't remember at this point. It doesn't. No, it doesn't at all. He just doesn't even remember the word. There's an English word that never. You know, I'm facing, like, out into the sky and the mountains,

and the whole crowd is behind me. How old were you? I was a bit older, so I was 13. Oh, no, that's a bit funny. It's quite embarrassing. And I just paused. It didn't freak me out, actually. And then I just went, um,

and then I hear the whole crowd chanting the word, but because it's a crowd, it's very hard to make out. This is not helpful. And so sweet. And so then I actually said, what? That's best case scenario. And then I finally heard it. And I go, oh, thanks.

And then I just finished. That's fabulous. I need to see. Both teams were so supportive. They were just like, yeah, you know, slap me in the back because they assumed that I was mortified, but I have to be honest, like, I wasn't really. I wasn't really because, I don't know, it just.

I would have thrown up for sure. I would have. You definitely would have. The one person who was not supportive was the person who hired me for it. She was like, well, I guess it could have been more prepared. You're a kid. Yeah, I mean, she hires up the word. That is deeply traumatic.

You can say that to a 13-year-old. Can a viewer please find this footage and DM it to us? There's going to be an uptick in Google searches. There would be, there's definitely no footage. It's before phones. Oh, me. Yeah. Before all of all phones.

Before all, this is before telecommunications. Yes. Did you build the camera? So hold on. So I'm curious, if you can recall, this is the genesis of, you as a performer here. We're building a story. Okay.

Did you, do you recall either afterward feeling that I want more of this? Were you just like, eh? You know, like, I'm wondering if you have any core memories there. I think I didn't have much of a relationship to the song at the time. I think I was eight and I was like, these are the words, just sing them. Just performing. You know, like, you got off a stage or the ice or whatever. I loved it.

I felt so happy and proud. and the funniest thing about that video to me is how I like, A, I feel like I look exactly the same as I do in that video. Like, that's exactly still everything. I didn't even know there's a video. There's a video. It's really funny because when I'm done,

the way I whip my head and walk away is too crazy. It's a little too much. I liked it a little too much back then. It was really funny. I loved it. I had so much fun. I wanted to do it again. Did you get hit by a puck?

I did. I got hit by two pucks. But I'm a big Panthers fan. still. Nothing can take me away. Where did the puck hit you? Once was the palm of my hand. Because you were like this?

Yeah, because my dad went to cover me and they went to, and I didn't know what was happening, so I went like this and it got me here. And I don't remember what the other, I think it was the same thing twice. Obviously the other time. That's where my memory went. That's wild. That can be so dangerous. No, yeah.

But they really, oh my gosh. Gosh, they put me on, they got me tons of ice and they put me on the Zamboni. And I was like, I'm not hurt anymore. Again, I love this. No, I was like crying. I was crying and smiling at the same time. You were already learning how to smile through the pain of the performance. And boy was, did I need to learn quickly?

Yeah. I'm kidding. That's dark. But no. I was like, and then, yeah. Dark, that was dark. No, I don't think it was dark at all. It reminds me of something you said on the video,

which we'll talk about later. Oh my God, our video shoots? Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, wait, what did I say? Well, you did, you said that you, you know, you had like, I think you hurt your foot somehow. Oh, yes. And we were just talking briefly about how, you know,

you're constantly getting these, not you, a performer, is constantly just sort of getting hurt. And like. And you just got to go through it. And like, it's just not a priority. Yeah. You're just, even like mid-take. I'm like, I cannot acknowledge this right now.

And when we're done, I'll be like, hi, may I have a band-aid? my pinkies on the ground and certain things just aren't as important when you're in a take or something I don't know I fractured a rib

in the middle of a take place and I was just like finished until the end and then afterward I was like I can't move that's wild and the sickest part of me was like oh god

I bet that was perfect on camera I'm like I bet that was great for the scene fucked so at eight years old you're singing the national anthem you're like I love this and what's sort of the next step

I know eventually you make it to Broadway but what kind of happens in between this thing with you it was like so fast it was fast but I'm thankful that it wasn't too fast because I was still home with my family for like those years that I'm you know I was a teenager when I was on Broadway I was already 13 so between then I did a lot of like local family theater and community theater and I was always on stage I loved acting and I loved singing and being a part of any show that I could find but um Yeah, then I went to audition with my best friend Aaron Simon Gross, who was at the Jim Carrey birthday for 13, the musical. And we got it together. Like he was, we both got it together. It was so fun.

Yeah, so I got to do my first few jobs because then I met Liz Gillies, who's one of my best friends in the entire world. And then after 13, auditioned for Victorious, and she and I got that together. So I've always had support and friendship around me. But yeah, I didn't start too young. I feel like 13 is, even though, you know, working at a young age is like we can talk for 75 hours. There's much to say, and we'll get there, I'm sure.

But, you know, it was nice to have a friend and it was nice to have not been seven or eight. But you were young. Yeah, I mean, I was about the same. So let's see, I first started doing community theater like eight and nine. and then I was I got my first like What was your first role? Willing Grace actually

I had like five lines Unwilling Grace In community theater Oh sorry I thought you made I thought you made I thought you had ever Um

Well Outside of school Yeah Was Winthrop and Music Man Cool A little enough You love musical theater I love musical theater

Do you love music theater? I don't know music music I don't. I'm not very well. He's going to test you. It could be the reason that I don't love musical theater because, you know, I loved the experience, but I did not. Maybe it wasn't the right show for you. It wasn't.

And then also my audition song was I Can Show You the World from Aladdin. Fabulous. Or a whole new world is what it's called. Yeah. But it starts with I can show you the world. And, oh, my goodness. Just I think of that audition process and cringe. However, I discovered that if it's done at its best,

When I saw Rent, I loved Rent. I loved Rent. You know, I was like a 20-year-old. Yeah. I could say, okay, when it's done well, I do like a musical. I have a core memory around Rent. My whole family was obsessed with musicals. We would sing Wicked all the time.

Were you Glinda or an alphabet? May I ask? Oh, Glinda. Oh, my God, fun. You don't have to say that. Popular is the best song. Oh, my gosh. But, no, but we would sing Rent all the time.

and I had no idea what the songs were about. I was like eight or nine, and my whole family went to go see it on Broadway, but you weren't allowed to bring a, like, 10-year-old. So I had to go see the New York City Ballet, which I fell asleep in with my aunt while they were all at rent. It was horrible. Oh, rent, yes.

Wow, that's devastating. Nothing's crazier than loving rent at a young age, being young and loving the songs. And then growing up and being like, whoa. That's what we're like, whoa, holy shit. One song glory. Yeah. Yeah, you know, honestly, all I knew about Rent was the South Park episode.

It's like, eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, and all that. And I didn't realize how much of a specific kind of lampoon that was because I turned to my friend at the time who I was seeing it with after like four or five minutes. And I was like, are they ever going to stop singing? And she looked at me like, I was crazy. She was like, no. No, first of us. And then I, you know, for the next 15 minutes, I was like, what have I done?

what have I done? What have I done? But then, you know, we'll make a way. Yeah. I don't want to delay us, but I have a crazy rent tie-in story. I was in a group called Kids Who Care when I was really young with Aaron and all my friends and we would sing for like different charity events or sometimes we would even go to old age homes and perform for the elderly. And one of the songs on our set list, because we loved to it and sometimes like when we would do shows we would do we would do what you own which says you're dying in America and the one time we didn't we didn't think we didn't think and we had a bunch of gigs in a row we didn't think about it and we were just at this old age home and we were like

we got to the final course you're dying in America at the end of the millennium and we were like but you know what did they appreciate it they couldn't hear us it was great it was great they couldn't hear anything they were like oh they're so cute and no one heard anything and it was fabulous see in my brain they were like finally some hard hitting something something where they can really give it to us finally someone honest around with telling the truth no no no at the end of the millennium you got five years yeah but like we didn't think about it at all And that final chorus approach. So good.

And we'll be right back. All right. So let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten?

And I don't mean in the sense of vanity. I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself. I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way. A spouse, a pet.

You know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting to sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so, honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with.

The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i think it tastes great i use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and 8 which is really good for for i think mood and stress i sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible um honestly you you don't even need to mix it with water uh uh and yeah i just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus

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And Podcrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up today at IXL.com slash podcrushed. Visit IXL.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. When you were on Broadway, you were in middle school, which is like right in the pocket of our show. So you weren't going to traditional school at the time? No, I was tutored.

We all had like a tutoring classroom and, yeah. That's like just when you were on set or what would you say? When you were at the theater? Yeah. Were you going to school and like other times? Yeah, I mean, because I wasn't sure if the show was going to take me out of North Broward Preparatory School in Coconut Creek forever. Coconut Creek, really?

Yeah, it's so Floridian. So wait, a prep school, is that very, is that very, is that very? very um academic was it a very was it a very academic path you were on um no i was there i mean i was there i think i kind of knew what i wanted to do and i was a good student i think i was a good student um but yeah i was there and then i would and i left to do the show and we had tutors so some of the kids were still in school like i was and um we would just be doing our classes remotely. And then I

did victorious and I had to finish the way that kid actors finished. I don't even remember what it's called. Yeah, is it the proficiency? Yeah, what is the test? The GED. Yeah, no, no, no. Well, there is that, but... Yeah, that, but no. I mean, in California... So that you can work more hours. It's... It's every state has a different one. Every state, so in California, California's... So in California, yes, yes, the Chesape. That's what I meant. Um, and then I...

was able to work like I was 30 at 15. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, yeah, I did the same thing. Literally. That's, yeah. So what was your experience around crushes at the time? Like your first loves, first heartbreaks? Oh, God. I mean, my mom was really strict. So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't worse. Worse. How do you think I ended up where I am? I just, no, as I, yeah, I think my mom was very protective and protective is a better word, but somewhat strict, very protective. and I couldn't, I didn't have a lot of crushes that I was like allowed to explore when I was super young, but I had them and they were there, but I didn't like, I had like my first kiss secretly in the hallway one time and I was like...

At a real school? Yeah, at North Broward in Coconut Creek. I was like quick and I was like, oh, this is bad, I'm going to get in trouble and I need to leave and I ran away and I don't think I ever talked to him again. But yeah. He's still crying. He's still mourning that. It was after school and before going to the school store because there was a school

store and that's like what people did and I wanted to be cool and I wanted to go to the school store. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was always a very like, I couldn't, I didn't want to like run home and be like, I had my first kiss. I was very nervous and scared. Yeah.

We'll cut this because I've told this story before but I think you'll find it cute. My first kiss was in a, like, spin-the-bottle game, sort of something like that. And my parents were very strict. And then it was like at a kid's birthday party, whatever. And I went to every kid at the party crying, like, please don't tell my mom. They were all like, why would we tell me? That's so cute. I was like, please don't tell my mom.

And then... You have to leave this in because I feel seen and understand it. And then as soon as I got home, just like opened the door. My mom was like, hi, Nava. And I started crying. And I was like, I kiss that in. Oh, my God. Okay.

That's just, like, no reaction. This is actually, like, this was my first kiss as, like, a person that I can remember being. Because when I was in preschool, I kissed a lot of boys. Oh, really? Yeah. I think something, like, there's something extreme that happens to me. Like, you know, like, when I was young, I kissed a lot of boys and I was very, like, fearless. And then I was, like, very nervous.

And I was, I kissed one boy and then never again. Until I was, like, 18. Yeah. Wow. Or, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like 16. That's not true at all. It's okay.

Don't worry. Guys, I don't think I've ever thought about. my life because I don't know what happened to me in my life at all who I am it's because you were performing I've been through it too it's the same for all of us wait it's because of the puck it's because of professional I don't remember anything guys wait I was like 14 yeah fair no you know what it is every year at that age is so long I don't remember the chess pee I don't remember graduating I don't remember anything it's it's only it's only um I mean honestly I feel like I feel like I feel like at that age every year is just phenomenally long. It's its own timeline. The difference between

13 and 14 to a 13 and 14 year old is massive. Yeah. Also, I've been thinking about this recently. Like you need external markers of time. Like whether it's, you know, middle school, you know, was 6th grade to 8th grade. And so it happened at some point during those years. Or like, if somebody moved house, then that's marker of time. Yeah, I have no, nothing. Yeah, because you're, so I actually have this too. In between the puck. Sorry. and today. Sorry, go on. What?

But honestly, like, after leaving school formally at, like, 12 years old, you know, a lot of it blends together for me as well. So I feel you. Yeah, strange. Well, we're finding it today. I'm curious how you, like, whether you thought of yourself as an artist then or not, how are you seeing the world?

What do you think your greatest aspirational? was at that time? To sing. I just wanted to sing. I really loved it. And what about, like, was acting connected? You know, because you were in musical theater then, did you always want to just sing?

Or at that time, were they really wed together? Well, they were wed together because I wanted to be on Broadway. That was my first and only goal. I was like, I want to be on Broadway. I want to be in musicals. And I also love making music. That was the other thing that I loved doing. I would love to, like, go home and play.

on garage band and like I had like a looping machine that I would play with because image and heap is my idol and my forever all time number one inspiration and um I saw her use one on stage so for Christmas my mom surprised me with one and and I don't think it was like the same thing it was I think actually mine's used for the guitars or something at the time but I don't know but I would like play and um loop my own vocals and just kind of like get I would I loved it so much so I knew I wanted to pursue the arts in all any forms. I loved writing songs. I think I wrote my first song when I was like 12.

And I, yeah, I loved it. I just loved it. I just wanted to create. Do you remember what that song was about? Let it rain. Oh, that's a great little for that. Thank you so much. I thought I was like Mary J. Blige or something.

I thought I was like Natasha Beddingfield. I like, it was very of that era. Yeah. Yeah. Let what rain? It. All of it. It, baby.

Just, I'm open, just all of it. And, like, why are you writing that at, like, 12? What are you talking about? I mean, I wrote a song at 14, I think, called Stay With Me, which is like, stay with me tonight. Like, come on, we're all just regurgitating what we're here. That's beautiful. Do you have it? It's actually, we can send you a clip of Evan Rachel Wood singing it because she knew it.

So, yeah, we were friends at that point. And, you know, it's funny you're talking about a looping machine. I really wanted one. I had a four track, but I love to stack harmonies. I just loved harmonies. It's, you know, again, I can teach you a little bit about it. Fine, you should sing.

I would like to stay with me tonight. Isn't that it? Can you give us a few? Give us one. No, I'm not. No, see, that was not the lyric. See, Evan, Evan, no, I would never, I would never, I would never, I would. Everyone is just these two.

I don't remember what it was, but it was not, we could go out walking to talking. It was too rhymy. And I would not, like, I remember that there was a clarification. It had something repeating. Anyway. This is such an abrupt pivot, but we have a question we ask every guest, which is to tell us an embarrassing story from that sort of early adolescent period,

if anything comes to mind. Oh, God. I don't know, because, and this sounds, like, so stupid. But I feel like I am not, like, easily embarrassed. I just feel like I'm like, oh, I'll make, like, a terrible job. and carry on and I don't know but I don't know something embarrassing about that

I had really bad OCD really is that embarrassed that's just sad that's not bad what do you mean like obsessive like counting or like certain ritual like certain had to be in

the shower for a certain amount of times singing through Define Gravity three times in the shower that's how I knew I had a long enough shower What's the song? Define gravity I'm not kidding When I was really from Wicked, literally though, when I was like, Wow.

Can we remove Penn for the second? I can go have some more jerk chicken if, um. It's a show called Wicked. I've never heard of it. Sorry. No, but no, things like that. I feel like that's embarrassing is being, is being. That's embarrassing.

No, I was just thinking when you said I don't get embarrassed. And then Penn was talking about that, you know, singing the anthem. and forgetting the words and not feeling embarrassed. I feel like that's something... You think there's something wrong with us, which makes us... I feel like that's probably part of the genesis of becoming a performer. Like you have to kind of have...

The kids who don't have that... I definitely get embarrassed quickly and easily are not going to go on stage. They're not going to develop the practice. Okay, I agree with you on one hand because it's like doing it in front of people. Okay, fine. But I was very, very easily embarrassed

by very, very little things. And I want to recall that you, kissed a boy. Internally. It's internally embarrassed. Well, that's what I'm saying. So, yeah. So what we do, I think, in this show, every now and then, I guess we'll have like some

kind of really prototypical, like, it was a very embarrassing moment and they all laughed at me and it's very funny and all of that. But I think, you know, the essence of the question is, I don't know, it's like that that soft center that everybody has, that everybody has that can become sort of like horrified at being seen maybe it's just being seen or I don't know if you're being seen in a way

that doesn't feel like it's fair right you know well I think embarrassed and like saddened by opinion are two different things I think that's fair yeah because I think it's like

that's of course a massive piece of it but it's like when I was young I just didn't I like could easily laugh at myself if that makes sense that's nice but all of it inside is all you know yeah that's why you become i think outward do anything for the laugh and yeah i guess sort of brave in that way because inside you're like hey what i suppose yeah shy how many

times would you sing to find gravity in the shower in the shower by myself i would i would have to hear it three times to know that i had been in there long enough but that was like that kind of oCD it was like numbers and like certain routine things cleanliness and stuff cleanliness definitely um I would use so much a total germaphobe, monopathophobe. Like, my hands would be cracking with, because I'd use so much hand sanitizer and I'd be such a germaphobe. Did this, how did COVID impact you then? I was okay. I just was mindful of precautions that normal, but I'm so much older now.

But when I was little, it was like the scariest thing in the wild to me. When did it subside then? Like, that's interesting that it was younger and then not older. Weird because I talk to my therapist about this a lot. It goes away when I'm creating and when I'm busy with work. Like when I have a job, it went away when I started working a lot. And when I started doing like finding community and theater and finding people and finding casts and distractions and kind of a place to like put my feelings and like use my feelings. And then when I'm kind of like in an off season or like in between projects, I'm like, is that thing scary again?

And I'm like, oh, am I like, does that, is that thing coming back? I don't know. But I think, like, when art is in the forefront of my life, I don't have time to think about anything else. Every thing really subsides when, yeah. But, yeah. But that was when I was young and I was much, I think, I think I was so brave then. And now I'm, like, so soft and so, like, I'm, like, a little, but it's, we're finding the balance now. It seems like maybe...

It took a big circle, big... Yeah. It sounds to me like something of your new record is a return to... Tiny. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Thank you.

It definitely feels like a certain... Coming home to myself has taken place over the last, like, two and a half years or something. But people say that's what happens when you turn 30. I think it's just something we all kind of get... Late 20s.

Yeah, late 20s 30. It's like you get there. You come home a little bit. You talk about the return of Saturn. I mean, you have this Saturn interlude. And I, in preparing for this, I decided to like, I'm like, I wanted to learn a little bit about Saturn. Here's a really interesting thing that will possibly lead you into a valuable reflection or not. We shall see. So the way Saturn got its rings, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, a, it was a, a, it was a, a, a, it was a, a, a, it was a, a, a, it was a, a, a, it was a, a, a, it was a, a, a. giant moon, a frozen moon. And it passed, Saturn has this thing called the Roche Point, which is where...

But, so here's the thing. So, it's gravity is so intense. I'm going to pull you through. Just wait, just you wait. But the Roche Point is different for every object that hits it, right? So, the Roche Point is, listen to this.

Listen, if you want to know about Saturn, no, no, no, I love it. If you want to know about Saturn, at this point, at the Roche point, The front of the object, the gravity is so intense that pulls it apart from the back. So Saturn, you just don't see how this is relevant? This is fabulous.

It's like, once you got to that part, I forgot the first part. So the rings, this is how the rings form. Oh, okay, okay, okay. But the point is, finish it, tell us. The point is. The roche point and the back. So any object that interacts with Saturn, okay, has its own roche point where its gravity is,

so much lesser than Saturn's, that the front of it starts to rip apart from the back of it. Wow. So if you were to hit the Roche point, the front of you would rip off. It's all about Saturn, actually. Yeah. Okay, right? So it's a collection of others of what's once been. So, well, it's this one, actually, it's not many other things.

It's just one moon. And this moon, so there's like an analogy from, we're Baha'is, and so there's, there's this body of writings called the Baha'i writings. We can talk about that later off tape if you want. Or on tape. Or on tape. Lemonada would love that. Yeah, right. You can compare a moon to a system of belief.

So what happened to Saturn's moon was that it was ripped apart by its own gravity. Isn't that poetic? And I was thinking that if there's any validity to this idea of Saturn returns, is that a belief system of your own is being torn apart. But then it's being reorganized rather than a single point, it surrounds you entirely in totally new fashion and form.

That's stunning. Yeah. That's beautiful. You landed it. I did land it. Well done. You landed at the plane. That was absolutely gorgeous.

And so I can't. Having gone through late 20s and 30 myself, I just feel like you've turned this period into, to a piece of art. Actually, I hadn't even done it. You've made the rings. You took the thing. You know, you've decorated yourself

with this beautiful new gem, which is Eternal Sunshine, right? That's what I'm saying. That's what you should say. Can we actually just roll it back and you say all of that? That's such a beautiful... That's such a beautiful...

Yeah. Because it really does feel to me like, you know, spending a lot of time with your catalog these last days seeing some videos and stuff and the way you've spoken about it you know it makes me think that there's one moment I think in a Vogue interview where you spoke about beauty as a as a tool I think we all do it I know we all do it especially if we're in the public eye using beauty to hide

yeah that was so beautiful yeah really really poignant I think it's just an interesting shift that happens naturally for people hopefully sooner rather than later where it's like, oh, maybe it doesn't need to be so, you know, I suppose for me, it just, I felt like I just wanted to kind of come home in that way. I don't know. I felt like everything about my, literally talking about style and aesthetic was just heavy and like a lot. And, you know, a lot of my fans still love that style.

And I think it's beautiful, too, from, like, afar. But I think it's just, like, I didn't realize at the time that it was like more was more because I wanted to be me less and less, like, to give myself to people less and less. So it was just kind of like a weird way of, like, building a character more and more and more. Yeah. So that, I don't know, you know. And then it was finally like, oh, there's a little voice in there. We're going to, you know, and then it just kind of found its way, come back around.

but I don't know it's it's funny how that can even show itself and something as little as like your makeup or your style or your clothes or your your every I don't know it's interesting it's weird that's totally true it's so strange that that has to be out there forever all of it you know what I mean that is that is that that is the weirdest part about doing choosing this with our lives is that like normal people every person with a job that isn't this changes and evolve and that's true and learns and has the ability to do that. I'd be like, oh, shit. And not everyone gets to weigh in. You don't even have to think about it every, I mean, you do, but you know, you don't have to look at it and be reminded of it at a, it's a, whoa, like, shop, blind, it's just, it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing that I, like, kind of do a lot of work on processing

so that it doesn't scare me away from continuing. No, I think that's really, it's, it's difficult. It's strange. It's difficult. I think it's funny to me that, that, you know, a comment section of anything is literally the manifestation of your own personal fears

in other people. It's like, wow, that thing that I thought that maybe was just an insecurity that had no place? That person's saying exactly that. Yeah, yeah. So actually, I was right about all the things that make me small and stupid and dumb and worthless.

And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's strange because it's like, sometimes you think it might be okay and then if you look, you will find it. That's a sick part of your, you know, it's like, it's just strange. strange it's just yeah yeah arian i heard you say in in a different conversation that sometimes like you try to change something that actually people have have criticized that you

you feel is valid and you change it and then they criticize you for that yes it's strange and i was like really thinking about that like yeah that's true you're in such a catchphrase you like no matter what you do people are angry at you why don't you do it sooner you're not it's not authentic that you're doing it now it's in response it's like what you people want you to say trapped in like one very specific version of yourself and that's like a prison, you know? It is very interesting. I think when that started to happen, I kind of

started to work with my therapist very closely on making peace with the fact that like, okay, maybe I'm too, maybe I'm searching too hard for this like, or for people to

get me, like the Ariana that is me. And I think I just kind of need to realize that this is, something that comes with making art for a living and with being in the public eye and this is something that I have to make peace with and become healthy about so that I can continue to make art and to tell stories and to be an artist because I love it more than anything in the world. I love singing. I love writing. I love acting. I want to do it. I love my fans. I just, it's like, it's such a tricky thing mentally to process,

especially when I started in this way at this level. I was like, you know, 19 or 20 when my music career started to become what it is. And it just was so far ahead of my development as a person. And I think I struggled for a long time when I was young, making peace with what this beautiful thing music had done to my life and I think it's still

something I work really hard on being healthy having a healthy relationship to is this and I'm thankful because I feel like before Eternal Sunshine I was not happy to be doing it I was not happy about it

and I'm very happy happy about it. I love it. I've loved every step of this album cycle so far and of Wicked and of the lead up to Wicked and the audition process. It's like feeding, I'm sorry, this is so long-winded. No, no, we love it. No, we love it. So much. I'm sorry. But, you know, it was just like a very informative and nutritious process. And I think it brought me home to everything I love and helped me reprioritize, you know, that my relationship to those. voices to art to everything and it's it's funny stick around we'll be right back fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look luckily

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Find it wherever you get your podcast and start listening today. You said something earlier that I really didn't know, and I want to, maybe I misheard, I'm not sure, but did you say that you created victorious or that you were in conversation with the creator of that before? No, auditioned for. Okay. victorious with Liz Gillies. Yeah. Yeah. So we were on 30...

No, did I say green? No, no, no, no. I was just trying to understand. He was thinking about the Roche Point. The Roche Point. I was already on Saturn's rings. Yeah, he's just like, right. No, no.

No, but I guess because I, so I... I had auditioned with Liz, who was in 13. Okay, that's what it was. That's what it was. That's what it was. We like flew to L.A. together all green and nervous and wondering what the chances were. And we both got cast So I was lucky to have my first two jobs

Be with my two best friends Like my first one was there And my second one was with Liz And that was very lucky So you were talking before About the kind of community That being on a In a stage production or a TV show provides

I mean that was for me You know I think the thing that actually drew me to it More than anything For you it sounds like there was Also a really really clear strong Like you know I want to sing music is

the future for you. Music is the path. But I guess I'm curious, what was, what was that like? Because again, this is, how old were you? 14? I was 14. And yeah, I flew out to audition with Liz Gillies for victorious. And we were all very excited. And we got cast and we were, it was the best news we could hear. I mean, we were young performers who just wanted to do this with our lives more anything and yeah and we got to and that was like so beautiful I think we had some very special memories and we feel so privileged to have been able to create those roles and be a part of something that was so special for a lot of young kids I think we're reprocessing our relationship to it a little bit now if that makes sense yeah what are your thoughts on child acting like we've had different

child doctors on the show who feel differently. Some are like, I would never let my kids. I don't think anyone should. And others who are open to it as long as there's like certain conditions on set. Obviously, my relationship to it has and is currently and has been changing and I'm reprocessing a lot of what the experience was like. You know, my, yeah, I think that the environment needs to be made safer if kids are going to be acting. And I think there should be therapists. I think there should be parents allowed to be wherever they want to be. And I think not only on kids sets, I think if anyone wants to do this or music or anything at the level of exposure that it means to be on TV or to do music with a major label or whatever.

There should be in the contract, something about therapy is mandatory twice a week or thrice a week or something like that. And I was actually talking to Max Martin about this the other day because he was always such an amazing person to talk to about the stressful parts of what I was experiencing. And he was just amazing. But a lot of people don't have the support that they need to get through being, performing at that level at such a young age, but also dealing with some of the things that the survivors who have come forward. And there's not a word for how devastating that is to hear about.

And so I think the environment just needs to be made a lot safer all around. And like I said, I'm still in real time. processing my relationship to it but um yeah the beautiful thing about it was that Liz and I got to fall in love with these characters that we created and learn what it feels like to be so in a character that you can't you know separate yourself from it and there were um things like that but yeah the rest of it is still being worked on Definitely. I mean, I think it's not just in Hollywood, and it's not just on certain sets. It's undoubtedly true that anybody who's going to be a really professional, competent, experienced, technically, like, veteran performer by the time you're in your, like, 20s, you have to have been doing it for a long time.

And I don't think there's anybody who's gotten there who hasn't experienced, you know, all these degrees of what you should and could call exploitation. But as you're going through it, it's not just that one thing. There's a million layers to it. And you can find, and as a person who then depends to some degree, not depends is not the right word. Because I'm saying this for myself as well. like the greatest burden and the greatest gift of my life is being a like high level professional performer. You know what I mean?

Like I have some of the most spiritual moments of understanding and insight and mercy and compassion when I'm in the middle of it. And I wouldn't be able to do that if I hadn't been doing it for so long. You know what I mean? And so it's like it takes and it gives. There's a lot to it.

And I think the way that, As you said, I mean, devastating is a great word to describe the things that are coming to light now. And it doesn't mean that it was all, it's just like across the board a negative experience for everybody who's doing it. And I think that's a really complicated and strange truth to sit with. It changes it a lot. And that's what I think I'm reprocessing. Me too, by the way. Like I wasn't around, yeah, I mean, I, yeah, there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot there's a lot there's a lot there. I'm sorry, it's really tricky because also you and I, if I've gathered anything from our time together and from today, from this, from just knowing you, it's, it's, it's, we're so professional.

So, so I think it's kind of like in any work environment. I'm glad that this conversation is happening here and also in the world because it's also just kind of a cultural shift. that's happening where it's not just actors and singers and whatever if you ask anyone who's ever worked ever if they've ever been sort of like you know dealt with a boss that had a really bad ego and temper and whatever or if they've been sexually harassed or even assaulted or it's it's not it doesn't it's everywhere it is everywhere it's like it's statistically it's prevalent yeah it's prevalent we we we point the finger a lot and fail to often remember like Like, this behavior is prevalent.

It's, it's a norm. We're told, it's normal. Yeah. And it's changing. And I think that's a really nice place to see the world in unison, standing in a place where we're like, that's changing. Yeah. That's unacceptable. So, yeah, I think, um, yes.

Sure. One of my favorite quotes, I'm, I, Sophie and Penn will agree with this. I have like a fire and brimstone personality too. Like I'm like, let the punish. What's the other part? Only exclusively. I'm like, I want people to be like punished. So anyway, this quote is very fire in brimstone, but I love it.

But there's a quote that says, children are a trust which no community can neglect with impunity. And I think about that a lot. Like, what does that mean? Like who's harmed when you neglect children? The children, but also the community, the adults that don't show appropriate behavior towards children. And I feel like what's worse in the film industry may be. or more amplified is like a spirit of adult behavior towards children. What I've gathered from interviewing a lot of our guests who started as children

is that there's like two phenomena that are common. One is like infantilizing people, treating people who aren't children like children like children like and then treating children like expecting adult behavior from them or acting in ways or letting children be exposed to things that like they're not developmentally ready for. No. Yeah.

That's really upsetting. Yeah. And there's also a strange. pattern that occurs where it's really taken advantage of how much it means to the young performer to get a laugh from Video Village. You're like, oh, shit, like, I'm doing something great, like, this is funny, this is good. By the way, video Village, we should say, is where all of the producers and the director are watching the monitors of, like, what's being captured on camera.

Yeah. Yeah, so it's interesting because I think that was speaking, specifically. specifically about our show, I think that was something that we were convinced was like the cool thing about us, is that like, we pushed the envelope with our humor and the innuendos were like, we were told and convinced as well that it was like the cool differentiation. And I don't know, I think it just all happened so quickly and now looking back on some of the clips. I'm like, that's, damn, like really? Yeah. Oh, shit. My daughter, you know, sorry. You know, I just think about it.

It's like what I, if I had a daughter, it's like, yeah, and yeah. The craziest part of that is like how many people have to approve it. Like when you start working in. So many adults. So many adults. So many adults approved that. So that's, it's like there's no spirit of responsibility towards children. Right.

There's a spirit of like a bottom line. There is a bottom line. You know. There's a bottom line. And then the things that weren't approved for the network were snuck on to like our website or whatever it and that is another discovery. But going into it, I guess I'm upset. But, you know, towards the end, my mom was allowed to come to set when I was, like, you know, a little.

She wasn't allowed to come to set? When we were younger, they were allowed to come to run through sometimes or, like, things like that. Like, occasionally, I think. But, yeah, towards the end, she was there, like, a little more. And we've been talking a lot about this recently, and she's been, like, sort of. My mom and I have, too, by the way. Yeah. Well, just be, I mean, because it's like...

It's awakening. Yeah, you have to start a process like, okay, so now knowing what we all know, neither would I want my children to be an environment like that, nor does my mother, in retrospect, think that I should have been an environment like that. So, you know, then how do we kind of reconcile around that as, you know, for the sake of our relationship? Yeah. And how do you also...

like put it to use how do we put it to use how do we what is there how is there an end to things like this i was actually talking about this with max who i said earlier because i think that in my contract as a republic records artist i want to see them add moving forward i need to call mondi livin about this mondi i have an idea um no but i think there should be provided that that if you're going to be doing this on this scale and your life is going to turn into something that you know it is if you do it if it goes well and if you get to do it and you get to be on the stage at the Grammys and you know your dreams are coming true there should be an element that is mandatory of therapy of a professional person to unpack what this experience of your

life changing so drastically does to you at a young age at any age it's just um really gets you for a second. Yeah. Arianna, I want to say completely sincerely that meeting you now, I mean, you're just so lovely and kind and sweet.

But even from afar, I just feel, and Penn, I've like had conversations with Penn about this completely sincere. You're so strong. Like you've gone through

some incredible things and I just feel like grace has to be one of your lead attributes as a person. Like you seem to handle things with grace. Yeah.

That's nice. Thank you. You got to. me thank you that's nice um it's true yeah thank you i think everyone in this room is very strong thank and yeah you don't know them you don't really know them oh i was all i was only talking about no i'm kidding no but thank you My therapist is doing great. That was actually, can I just, just a quick detour.

Yeah. Speaking of the funniest things that have happened in the, like, world that is so many degrees removed from what we're actually doing in real life. One of the funniest stories when I was becoming whatever I became was that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I think it was. Of course it was, but they said that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I've been with that therapist for 15 years. Wow. You should be ashamed of yourself.

No, we literally send it to each other from time to time as like a joke. I'm like still going strong.