Podcrushed - Ashley Flowers (Crime Junkie)

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Our guest today is Ashley Flowers, New York Times bestselling author and host of Crime Junkie, one of the biggest true crime podcasts ever, with over a billion downloads since its 2017 debut. She talks about her early life in the church, her late-night-grind to get Crime Junkie off the ground, and her theories on why crime is so fascinating.    And preorder our new book, Crushmore, here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Nava-Kavelin/9781668077993    Call American Financing today to find out how customers are saving an average of $800/mo. Call 866-889-1766 or visit http://www.AmericanFinancing.net/podcrushed. NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org.   Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here: Insta: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedInsta TikTok: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTikTok  X: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTwitter   You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here: Insta: https://www.instagram.com/pennbadgley/  https://www.instagram.com/scribbledbysophie/ https://www.instagram.com/nnnava/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@iampennbadgley  https://www.tiktok.com/@scribbledbysophie  https://www.tiktok.com/@nkavelinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I've got these horrendous home movies that I used to make where I would write a murder mystery and then make my family act it out and I was like literally even like writing commercials into the movie because I knew you had to have an ad break and fund it somehow. Wow. Oh my gosh.

Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Sophie and I'm Nava. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. We're making our Furby's kiss. Give me some sugar. I don't know. Is that weird?

Hug me with tongue. I don't know. That's... Oh, no. Welcome to podcast. I am your... Welcome to podcast. Welcome to podcast.

I am your crushed toast pod batchly. What is purse? Do you guys know that reference? It's another podcast reference. You wouldn't know. Oh, it's too good, we should definitely keep that. Well, I am your podcast host for Pod Crushed, named Penn Badgeley, joined by my co-hosts, Navi Kavlin and Sophie, I'm sorry.

You know, my day job is not this. I'm an actor, right? So, like, I mean, what am I doing here? But I get things, I'm, I get pictures of me sent of, like, to me, of myself on the train, a fair amount, you know, people at me, they tag me. And I saw a recent one that stuck out to me not only because I'm wearing a new white hat post Joe, but I noticed I was wearing these headphones.

And this is real. So I typically don't like wearing headphones on the train at all, big clunky ones, because they're just, they're not comfortable. They're not sleek. If you're getting good sound, you're not getting the other attributes. These, no lie. These are so light.

They are sleek. They're very comfortable. And you get incredible noise. Also, the battery is insane. You get like over 60 hours of active noise cancelling playtime. It's J-Lab, I should say. J-Lab, the Epic Lux Lab Edition headphones is a company that we've just found out about in the last year, and they make great stuff.

I am wearing my J-Buds mini right now. I mean, you could barely see them. They're so tiny, like a little, like a little tiny little girl. Adorable. Fairy. I love them. They come in so many different colors. And like you said, Ben, they last.

The battery lasts for so long. I've never had earbuds that last that long. So yeah, super practical. And the price point keeps it so that you can actually have like multiple pairs. Like you can have like your J-Buds mini that you use for the gym, the ones you use for home, the ones I use for my bedtime with my daughter to tune her out, you know. Healthy parenting. That really resonates with me because I have a curse when it comes to particularly headphones,

like lifelong curse, lose them, step on them, get them stolen. Somehow they never stay in my orbit. So it has been helpful to be able to afford to buy a few pairs. And this has been my favorite pair from the J-Lab, from the J-Lab. Yeah, from the J-Lab-Uvre. The Epic Sport ANC-3 air buds, they go over your ear and so far have not fallen out, have not been easy to snatch. So they're mine and I wear them at night when I want to go on a walk and I want to be alert.

So you can make them noise canceling, but you can also be alert and hear what's happening. And that's my preferred mode. So if you see Penn on the subway wearing his JLab headphones, just snap a picture. Send it to us. Yeah, we're doing. He loves invasion. Yeah, sorry. So sorry, Navs.

No, don't. You can add them. If you also have a problem with your ears where things just pop out of them, You can statch up a blue box at retailers everywhere, or you can head to jlap.com. You can use our code podcrushed, and you'll get 15% off of your order today. Your ears, dear listener, are likely dying for us to just get to the episode.

Get to the guest, get to the guest, right? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? We don't know. We've tapped blindly. We don't know. Today, Ashley Flowers,

the New York Times bestselling author and host of crime junkie, which is a weekly true crime podcast. you probably already know about because it's one of the biggest ones out there. But in it, two lifelong best friends discuss all of these gripping cases that they can't get out of their heads. Since its debut in 2017, crime junkie has become one of the biggest podcasts of all time with over a billion lifetime downloads second only to podcrushed, as you're well aware. She's here today mostly, apart from picking apart her teenage years.

She's here to promote her recent novel The Missing Half, which follows the gripping tale of two sisters who, do anything to find their missing halves, even if it means destroying everything they've ever known. We loved having Ashley here today, truly. We think you will too. Let's get on to it. Let's give her her flowers. Don't go anywhere. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louie.

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Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons like Felicia Rashad,

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Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast or watch us on YouTube. So as you may or may not be aware, we start at 12th. What was 12-year-old Ashley Flowers like? How did she see the world? What was her day-to-day life like,

home life, all that stuff? She was in a cult basically Oh, okay All right Interesting, okay Yeah, so at 12 So I live in Indiana currently I was still living in Indiana

Born and raised I just left briefly for college But my dad was a pastor At like one of those mega churches And he wasn't like the main pastor He was what was called an associate pastor We lived on the premises of the church We like everything we did

was at the church we had to go to like services multiple times a week and it was like such a freaking bubble i went to the school that was made like the church's school so like my whole world lived in this like one parking lot essentially how many people do you think comprised of that community um i mean the church itself was like a couple thousand and i mean it would like it could hold 5 000 and in the summertime they would have this thing called camp meeting where everyone would come from like all over the country in their RVs to like hear here pastors speak or whatever and I mean it was like the whole mindset too of of how the church was and I mean so many reasons I don't like it now is it was a very like us first them and I thought like

the whole the whole world operated the way we did and there was like very few people who were different and it turns out like oh no like we might have been the different ones was the entire world, them? Who is they to you? At 12, it was like, uh, the good Christians were us and everyone else was there. And everyone else was them. That's a big, that's a big them. It's a lot of them. Yeah, I know. The three of us for sure them. Yeah. Yeah. You guys had really probably exciting life and like I will get there. But um, obviously things have changed for me drastically. But at 12, the world was the world was small. There was no life out. side of it for all of middle school until high school. I think the way that I, like, rebelled

is I remember I used to tell everyone, like, there was no way in hell I'd ever marry a pastor. Really? Because, like, that's what my dad was, and I saw, like, it all around me. And I just, like, I think that, like, back then, what I thought I wanted to do was, I had a grandma who was, like, a nurse. And I just remember seeing that as being like, oh, that's, like, really financially stable. You could find a job anywhere. It was, like, super practical. And, And I continued to gravitate towards that because I did. I wanted like, I wanted a bigger life than that parking lot. I, in our research, it's, I learned that Brit, who's on crime junkie with you is like, is a lifelong friend of yours.

Yeah. And that you were, were you were so wild, such a fun fact. In the same cult? Same cult? Yeah. Same cult. Yeah, you must have been. Sorry, I mean, it's how we knew each other.

So our moms both went to the church. And her parents had actually been trying to get pregnant for a very long time, like 11 years. And my mom had me. And they had just started the adoption process. And when her mom came to visit my mom at the hospital, she told my mom was like, you know, or she told my mom, she's like, you know, this is bittersweet. Like, I'm so happy for you. But like, this is the thing that I've wanted for so long that I can't have.

And my mom was like, well, you know, for all you know, maybe your baby's being. born right now. And three months later, they got Britt and found out she has the exact same birthday. And we've been like soulmates ever since. Wow. That's wild. That is amazing. Well, so that made me curious, like, what was your friendship with Brit like at 12? Were you super tight or were you running in the same, just running in the same circles? No, we were super tight. We spent a lot of time she grew up on a farm. So like I had the house that was like attached to the church basically, but she lived like 20 minutes away on a farm. And so we

were riding horses in our bathing suit to like I mean, it was like small town, like little stuff. And her and I were like constantly rewriting we were like the weird Al Yankovic of middle school girls. Because we would like rewrite all these songs

about like the boys in our lives and we were on AIM and like solving mysteries. Like that's the true crime was the thing that her and I like always had together. Because truly we could not be more different people for an eye. But, like, for some reason, like, we were both fascinated by this. When do you think that started?

I mean, for me, like, I don't know when it wasn't there. And I think, like, my mom was super into mysteries and her mom before her. They weren't really into true crime. Like, they were just big fans of, I get the Christie books, and she'd watch Perry Mason and Colombo and all those, like, Jerry Hattrick murder shows. and but I don't know like I tell people that I think the first time like it hit me was

I'm like really close to Jean Bonnet's age and I remember being Britt and I always said like tabloid height when we're at the grocery store seeing this thing and like having this moment of being like oh my God those like those stories that you read me like happen in real life

and from that moment on like I couldn't get enough like I just became obsessed with the genre you've written a book called The Missing Half and we're going to get there but in the prolog you the I don't even know what to call her yet

the victim is wearing a tankini and that specific word actually you know there's like a trend there's been a trend on TikTok and Instagram that's like girlhood is and for me girlhood is like choosing a matching tankini with my best friend at Abercrombie and Fitch what is a specific moment because I don't think they make

tankini anymore they're like they do they're coming back they're coming back no way they had been very popular let me just explain to Penn because Venda, no, a tankini is just like a two-piece swimsuit, but instead of a bikini where it's like small triangles or, you know, whatever shape, it's like a tank top. So it's like a more modest.

It was very popular when I was like 15, 16, and then they went out of style for decades. But, and I actually, when I read it, like triggered all of these memories. And I had a question for you. I had a two-part question. One is, do you have a favorite water memory? Like, I feel like being around water is like such a childhood thing. I don't know for you. And then two, do you have a fashion regret from your middle school years?

I have, first of all, no fashion regrets. Like, take me back immediately. I love that. I would do it all over again. I also, like, I feel bad for you guys because I might be the worst host. Like, I left my, like, shame chip somewhere in my past life. And you don't have it. That's great.

I'm sure I do. Like, I, my husband, like, knows my one week spot, and he can, like, really embarrass me. Oh, we need him on. Yeah. But it's like, I mean, he'll take, he'll take, he'll take. me to a bar. You know how they have those like tunes things where you like pay to play the song? Yeah. He will just play nickelback

over and over and over until like people in the bar get mad. And then he's like the one singing along so you like know it's him. It's very like I'll I want to die when that happened. But that has nothing to do with like. But fashion choices like no. I like I because mostly because like the 90s are kind of coming back in like early 2000s.

Yeah. But my water memory, I'm like the queen of nostalgia. So when you talk about the tankini in the book, my favorite part in the book is actually this one moment later on, we talk about a memory where she did the George Washington hair. Yeah. So it's like no specific memory, but it's just like those little things that you would do every time. Like, I don't know. Like there are certain things that I can do now that like take me straight back to being young and like when the world felt so easy. I heard a quote somewhere from, there's this podcast I listened to called Decoder Ring

and she said that the world was never less complicated we were just too young to know that it was and like, and I think that's kind of the truth like there was always something but it feels so messy now I keep saying I'm gonna create you guys saw the village right

like I'm not gonna ruin the village for anyone I actually didn't watch it but I have to go ahead you can ruin it ruin it we're actually this is a podcast for ruining shows and movies. This is actually like one of the, I don't know, it's a good

one. So it's an unfortunate spoiler, but go ahead. We'll skip ahead, listeners, if you want to watch the village. Just a couple minutes. Yeah, like, you're going to lose listeners because of the village. So it's like, it looks like they're in the 1800s and they all grew up in this village and there's these monsters on the other side that they're protecting

their kids from and all of this. And you end up realizing the big twist at the end is when they finally like go past the barrier, it's just like modern day. So they had like been shielding them from everything. And I keep telling everyone in my life, like, I'm going to buy a compound one day. And I am just going to wall it off. But it's going to, instead of being the 1800s, it's going to be the 90s. And I'm just going to like, re-release an Atlanta's more set CD every

once in a while. Josie's going to get a pager. It's going to be like the best time. Yeah. Exactly. That's the best decade. I'm curious, I was looking through your Instagram. And I feel like every, almost every post, every other post in your caption, you are asking specifically single moms to leave their Venmo handles so that you can like help out with a bill or something, which I was really struck by like just the amount that you do that and how much in other areas of your career, it seems like you are really focused on giving back as well. And I was curious what you think in your upbringing led to that, if anything, or if it was something that came on later.

And also if we could just give you our handles. Perfect. I do think it was like I talk a lot about the bad parts of my upbringing and like in a light way and but I mean it was a little traumatic and I, but what I am so grateful for and that my parents instilled in me was this idea of always like trying to help people that are in a worse spot than you are. Even when we had nothing and I mean like we truly had nothing at one point. at one point, like, we were on, like, food stamps. My dad was still, like, always giving and giving. Like, that was just his nature. And I know what it was like to, I remember one time going to the dentist and I had to get a cavity filled, which is, like, not that big of a deal for most people, but I remember my mom just, like, crying as she handed the lady her credit card because $200 was going to, like, break my family.

And so, like, the single mom's thing really came from, like, after I had my daughter, like, I didn't know how hard it was going to be. Like, people can try and prepare you. And I think for some women, it comes easier. For me, it's so freaking hard. And I just couldn't imagine doing it without, like, my entire village, like, my husband and my mom and his mom. And, like, I wouldn't have survived.

And I, like, all the time, I'm just like, I don't understand how anyone can do this alone. And so that's where kind of the Venmo thing comes in. Why single moms? Like, that really came after I had a daughter. But giving back was just, like, I don't understand how to move through the world and not do that. And when it came to, like, what we do for work, I, this whole thing got started because I felt like I needed to give back. So I was obsessed with this genre and these cases. But I got to this point in adulthood where I was like, and I'd always done volunteering and I was kind of looking for my next thing.

And I was like, you know, I feel like I need to give back in some way to this community that I'm always taking from. Like, I'm listening constantly for entertainment. I can't solve a case. I can't just turn around and be a detective today. What can I do to give back? Which led me to volunteering at crime stoppers, to being on their board of directors, to eventually, you know, long story short, starting the show. And so it was just like the DNA of why I made this. and it has been so much a part of as we grow

the ways in which we're able to give and give back have to. That's really inspiring. I started doing what I do now when I was 12, and I can at least, I started to see the world as the performer that I am. So what you do isn't quite performance. What you do is it's like it's, it's, it has that in it. It has journalism in it. It has all these sort of pieces.

Yes, it's creation. So I'm just curious, like, is there a link you can make, and you don't have to force it, if not? Is there a link that you can see between the way you saw the world then and the way you see it now? And any seed of what you do now, can you, you might not have been able to see it then, but can you see it now? It was actually on the horizon then? I could not see it then, but it's so easy. It's like staring me in the face when I look back. So I've got like these horrendous.

And maybe if I can find it, I'll give you a clip, but like the smallest that I've got these horrendous home movies that I used to make where I would like write a murder mystery and then make my family, like make my family act it out. And I was like literally even like writing commercials into the movie because I knew you had to have an ad break and fund it somehow. Wow. Oh my gosh. You're a producer too. Yeah. And I'm like, I mean, I was I was directing music videos with my sister. And, I mean, from the earliest time I can remember.

And what I think is so interesting is I would have, prior to starting crime junkie and starting the business, I would have never told you I was a creative person. And I think it's because I never, I was always, like, had to be so practical. And I think it was just also the way I grew up. And I was so striving for that, like, security and, like, financial security, job security. it just wasn't, I didn't have the room to dream, I don't think, or like dream big. My parents told me I was capable of anything, but like also don't be ridiculous and get a real job kind of thing. Also stay in the cult. Yeah, or stay in the cult.

Yeah, like Marriottaster. And I, so it was like there and I've got all the home movies to prove it. But I don't know why I never let myself like actually fall into that. And when I look back at, like, the classes I did the best in, like, I could write a story that would have my freshman English teacher, like, weeping as she's grading it. But I'm, like, taking AP physics for some reason. And, like, it's so hard for me, but killing myself to do well at that because in my mind, like, math and science is, like, the only thing I should be doing. Which is so strange. But it was, yeah, it was there all along.

And now that, like, I let myself, like, find an outlet for it. I'm like, I can't believe I ever tried to do anything else. At what point do you feel like you stopped fighting who you wanted to be versus who you felt like you should be? Once that thing, like, allowed me to pay the bills doing that thing. So even when I started the business and the podcast, I worked full time for the whole first year. And I only gave myself a year because I knew how hard it was going to be. I knew how much work I was going to have to put in. And so I gave myself one year.

And I said by the one year mark, if I can't quit my job, job and pay my bills, then I have to give this other thing up. And, I mean, like, right at the one year mark, we were able to do that. Wow. You continued working another job while you were doing it? Well, I was doing the podcast for the whole first year. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I would wake up at, like, I would work on the podcast from like 5 a.m. to like 7.30. I'd go to work from 8 to 5 to 5. I would come home and work till like 10 or 11 p.m. And then I would do like 12 hours Saturday, 12 hours Sunday. It was brutal. a brutal first year. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. That's, that is incredible. I mean, it sounds like we are ready to transition to your kind of career, but we should ask you some

classic questions because our listeners will want to hear these. So, why don't we start with an embarrassing stories? Could be middle school, could be high school, but can you share like a particularly awkward, embarrassing memory from adolescence? I mean, there's like a lot of like little ones. And again, from middle school, I think I was protected by being in the bubble. Like, I couldn't do anything interesting to be embarrassing. And so it's not like, I actually like love this about me. Other people are like mortified. So my job in high school was I was the dancing pig on the side of the road, like our main strip because no one else wanted to do it.

So I was like a famous Dave's barbecue. I was the pig in the suit who was like bust in a move on the corner. And like that's what everyone. Is there video footage of this? Because we would love that. I literally was trying to pull it up. I think YouTube took it down because I was dancing to lean like a cholo. And I think it was a copyright violation.

I forgot about that song. I did not. It's like now my daughter's favorite bedtime story. I tell her about how I started as a hostess and worked my way up to the pig. And she's obsessed. I was just like, I was a goofy kid. Like, I mean, I was the one. We had a huge high school.

I was the one who was like, I got stuck one time. I was like had my backpack. and there's like the wall and this giant pole for some fucking reason and they did so busy in our high school and I was like

I'll just cut through and I got stuck and like a bunch of people had to like come it was so fucking embarrassing had to come like pull me out like weasel me out of this like hole in the wall

it was terrible but I did you get stuck I truly was just like I was awkward and I was weird and I didn't have like I didn't have a thing or a group, especially when I went to high school. So at middle school, the church broke up. So, like, everyone kind of, like, fled and went their separate ways. And so I went from being in a school where I had 13 people in my class to going to the public high school where I had, like, a thousand people in my class.

Like, it was huge. Wow. And everyone's known each other their whole lives. And so I didn't have a friend group. I ate lunch alone a ton. Um, but no, I, like, I go there and I don't know anyone. And I'm just trying to like make my way through. And I always felt, I think it's why I tried so hard at like the like the science, whatever, like the straight and narrow path is I never felt like I was great at anything. I felt like I was a little bit like a chameleon and I think I could be good at like, I could be decent good at like a lot of things. which, like, you know, made it easy to, like, fit in here and there. But, like, I was never, I never found my thing.

I never found, you know, people had sports or people had music. I cannot hold a tune to save my life. And so I always thought I was just going to be, like, I was just kind of average. And I think that's what, like, like, bummed me out more than anything. Is, like, I had this, like, desire in me for this, like, really big life. and like I felt like it was something that everybody wanted and I wanted to change the world and I wanted to

I just, that's just how I envisioned myself and I think the older and older I got I was like, oh no, like I think that like you're just this is, this is it and that's okay and but it wasn't what I wanted and I think that was hard to come to terms with for like a long time Stick around, we'll be right back.

all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you know on like a one to 10 and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a household I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep

and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way, physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turn to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they do, that they taste delicious and I'm telling you even before I started doing ads for these guys

it was a product that I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with the three that I use I use the what is it called liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning

um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and 8 which is really good for for i think mood and stress i sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible um honestly you don't even need to mix it with water uh uh and yeah i just couldn't recommend them highly enough if you want to try them out go to symbiotica.com slash podcrush for 20% off plus free shipping That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the

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exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up today at IXL.com slash podcrushed. Visit Iexl.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. It seems like there were certain restrictions or there were certain aspects of your upbringing that were quite strict. I mean, I would think in any extremely religious upbringing that's going to be there, right? Yeah. But then there was this, if you could call it permission or, you know, you, you,

You seem to have total freedom to explore, call it criminality, call it investigation, call it murder, call it whatever. You know, there was no restriction here. Yeah, like, there wasn't a ton of restriction, and I think it was because that was, like, so based in reality, like, there was no arguing with it. This was just the world, and these are the facts. That even though it's, like, the worst of the worst things, it was okay to talk about. whereas like they spent more time like worrying about like making sure I don't read Harry Potter

because that would be the end of the world and yeah I also heard no Furbies were allowed which I thought was so funny oh my God no yeah Furbies were a no go cabbage patch babies were a no just because they look weird I don't know like there's a lot that I even ask my mom about the womb I don't know yeah and she can't even explain it and that's like like the crazy part about like again I have no I have nothing against religion there's so many wonderful Christians but like this version of it where it was just like wait we don't know why we hate something we just hate it and we're just like and I'm like that isn't like I think it's okay to ask questions but yeah no cabbage patch kids no furbies no Harry Potter we're more worried

about witches and wizardry than murder yeah that's fair so so so the reason I I ask that is Because I think a lot about true crime and true crime obsession. And I think that in its essence, what we're exploring in it is questions of human nature. Mm-hmm. You know, deep questions of human nature. I think we're fascinated. So I guess I'm, I want to hear now, I think we all want to hear, about how as you grew this fascination and obsession,

call it human nature, call it whatever, turned into something. you could see as a build and just for some of our listeners who don't know like the very few of you don't know Ashley has one of the biggest podcasts in the world she has a podcasting company she gives back through her organization like what Ashley has done is absolutely like there's no I think there's no comparable person probably in the world in the world of true crime certainly the idea that we do in some sense the same thing in podcasting is a joke Oh, you guys are so... No, no, no, I'm serious.

I'm serious. So, yeah, so we have a, like, so just an overview. I've got a company called Audio Check, which... And that's your dog. Yeah, I was going to say the name just came from. I was filling out my paperwork because, again, this was not going to be a hobby. I did all my LLC paperwork before I ever released a first episode. Wow.

And I needed a name, and I was like, okay, I'm all about spending time on the things that matter. And in my mind, I was like, a name doesn't matter. Like, I'm doing audio. I love my dog Chuck. It's audio chuck. It's good. It's a great name. My origin story.

Something that we also share, great names for a podcast. Right? It's perfect. Pod Crush, there's nothing cringy about that at all. Okay, sorry, continue. So, yeah, we've got 20 shows, but our flagship show is crime junkie. We're every week, Britt, who I mention my best friend, I get on and I tell her the crime story I've been obsessing over. And the format really, like when I was thinking about how this is coming to be, so like the business of it came from, I was in the, on the board of directors for crime stoppers.

They really wanted me to do some brand awareness for them. And nobody, my age, knew what the program was. And so I originally started, I partnered with a local radio station here in Indianapolis and was like, hey, I'll come on every Monday morning. I'll tell a quick true crime story. And in exchange, you advertise for them. and it became their top-rated segment they became the top-rated station in the city

and at some point I was like okay like I actually think I could do this on my own and have like more control and tell the stories longer and I was upset Can I ask how long that segment was? It was like eight minutes. Eight minutes? That's short.

Oh it was like in and out and then with their ad breaks and their like sound effects and like it was like it was totally different okay okay And so I had become obsessed with podcasts before this. Like, I mean, I was consuming all the true crime ones. And I kept waiting for someone to make this specific show that I wanted to hear,

where I wanted to hear two people. But I didn't want, like, I didn't want, like, side tangents. I didn't really want personal stories. Like, I've got ADD with the best of them. And I'm like, I just, like, give me the facts. And give me the facts that, like, you can't half-ass it. Like, as a crime junkie, I know. the big cases. So don't come at me with

wrong facts or like stuff. I don't know. Like it's got to be deep. And so I got to this point where I was like, well, maybe I should just make the show I keep waiting for with the idea being that like, this is the crime jay experience. I'm going to like tell you everything there possibly is to find about this story in this one

place in a really accessible way. I'm going to, it was what I was already doing. I was already like researching and finding out everything and telling my best friend Britt. And so in my mind, I would just put a mic to that and let Britt be the listener. Let her be the audience that's listening. And let me tell my best friend of story. Let let the people who are listening feel like they're hanging out with us.

And it just like it just took off. I mean, I think it was, I think it's great content, but I think we were in the right place at the right time as well as far as like when podcasting was really taking off and gaining traction and true crime as a whole. I mean, I always feel like it's been a big genre but I you know over the past decade the way that that's grown as well I think it's kind of unbelievable yeah so yeah like we just had this like spike in that first year there's I'm sure you've seen like the memes about how like women will like relax like to cry it's me it's me will unwind yeah yeah and I have my own ideas of why women in particular are drawn to the genre but I'm curious

for you as the expert in the topic, what you think? I think there's a lot of things, and I, like, I have not studied this. I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I think some of it is we are often the victims of these things. And so there is this, like, hypervigilance of how can I protect myself? What can I learn? How can I? I also think, like, you consume so much that you're, like, surely it can't happen to me.

Like, if I, I don't know. I don't know what the thinking is behind that. I also think that, like, many women have this, like, attention to detail. So many of the detectives I talk to are, like, I can't tell you that some of the best detectives we have are women. And I think this, like, attention to detail and, like, wanting to pick apart every little minuscule part of a case and try and make sense of it. Because that's what, like, our brains want to make sense of the world. And so much of true crime just doesn't make sense. and to pen to go back what you were saying earlier,

it's like how does it happen and who's capable of it? And is it everyone? Are we all capable of something if pushed to a certain point? And what makes one person capable and one person not? And why is that point different for all these people? It's, I think it appeals to more than just women, but I think that we, from a self-preservation point of view, really pick at it. I mean it definitely appeals to well you know to me the male version is

seven David Fincher films you know it's it's like the the male version is not that different but it is I call it boy true crime like I can pick out boy true crime right away it's heists it spies it's like right yeah but but there is I mean I mean to me I think men have a focus on and a fast with, you know, the serial killer as a modern mythological figure in a way. But it is different. But it is different. And I'm not exactly sure what that difference is right now. Do you think that what, do you have, have you thought about this? Do you think there is... I haven't. Because everyone, everyone always asked me about women.

I'm here to ask you about men. Men. Let's talk about men more. Well, do you think men are, I think men are subject to more collective... This is not backed by data. This is just a speculative thought. Yeah. I think men are subject to more collective violence, like gang violence. they serve in the military at higher rates but women it's more like domestic violence

or like child abuse so it's more like one on one I guess boys probably are subject to child abuse too but partner violence is more predominantly like male violence against women but boys are more subject to collective violence I think so there's not you know like war stories are really popular with men

and gang stories are more popular with men so what they're more subject to they're more interested in and what women are subject to they're more interested in maybe I love that very very insightful yeah but I could be totally wrong there was this sense I got when I was listening I was listening to several episodes back to back and I was just like my husband could hear me I was in my headphones and I just was in the kitchen being like oh my god no and I was just like how did I not know about Charlotte Grabby you know like how did I not know her story that is this is so tragic like what

this man did to her and I remember when I first became a mom, I had this feeling that is, you know, it's like maybe there's two sides of the same coin of like there's so much that women go through that is just silent, it's just quiet and no one talks about it and no one sees it. And I had this feeling like I just want someone to witness what's happening. Like I want someone to like be sitting next to me or just like watching me breastfeed so that they know like what I'm actually putting into this. Like what I'm, what is what's going into motherhood because it's kind of in the shadows. And I think it's something different, but, you know, in the same vein with, like,

violence against women. And, I mean, I haven't listened to all of your episodes. And obviously, like, we've acknowledged men are victims of violence, too. But I do feel like it's, like, predominantly women. And it just feels, like, important that we know these people's names. I don't know. Yeah, it's hard, like, when you're in so many stories and you're, I think the thing that I see the most, especially as we work with families now, is this idea that, like, when something like this happens, when a whole human just gets, like, snuffed off the face of the earth, a human who has those moments and who was breastfeeding their child and who, like, did all these, like, beautiful things and had a life just like ours, when it's just gone, like, that everything just moves on. I think that's like, that was just one of the realizations I had, like, that most families have the hardest time dealing with.

Like, how does everything for me just stop? And, like, the rest of the world is so unaffected. And it happens at such an alarming rate that we are desensitized to it. And, like, even the way that, like, we talk about true crime, I think, like, desensitizes us often to the real person who got lost, the real, like, family behind all of that. which has been, like, such a big mission in our work is how do you, you will never, I will never stop consuming this crime, or this content. I don't expect anyone else to. Like, I understand wanting to consume it.

So the question for me is always like, how can you, how can we find a way to create it better? How can you find a way to consume it better, more responsibly? So that we're not continuing to cause more harm to the people who've already, like, suffered the biggest loss. Yeah. Well, I thought that was so interesting in the beginning. of the missing half right away, like pretty much right away, you talk about a true crime podcast in a self-deprecating way from the perspective of the victim or the victim's family,

how they might feel about like their family members' death being covered in the media and specifically on a podcast. And I thought that was interesting that you went there and given your career. And I wondered if you could elaborate on that. Yeah. So I, I mean, I don't talk about it very long, but it's one of those things that so much of the book, like I love doing the books because it gives me a chance to play in the mystery world where the stakes are zero. Like, the stakes feel so high when we're working in true crime because of the people on the other end of this that we're working with.

But the stakes are zero. And everyone wants me to write a book where, like, there is a podcast solving a case. Like, I have zero interest in doing that. Yeah, like, I'd do this enough. I was like, I'd rather just mock myself. But it's what I hear from family all the time I mean like I so much from the book is taken from my real life from cases I've worked from whatever

And I've seen like it goes wrong so many ways Where I've talked to families who have been burned by other things I've like so many people who like I have to like listen to people Talk about my life like they know my life When they've never even talked to me And I think that's such an interesting Part of what they have to do deal with.

And it's like, right, like, early on when I didn't have any resources, like, we were talking about people we never got to actually talk with. But, like, literally, from episode one, I got a reminder of that, though, because episode one, I did a case on Nikki McCowan, who is this woman who went missing in Indiana. It was kind of a little known case. And I released my first episode, and the next day, I got an email from her daughter. Like, I mean, I'm nobody at this point with no following. And it was just that reminder that I don't know if people forget or if they don't care or what it is,

but a reminder that every word I'm going to say I have to imagine is being heard by the people who are affected by the story. And so in little ways, like that's the kind of stuff I wanted to incorporate into the book. It's like I don't have to like, I'm not perfect. Our medium isn't perfect. But if you can point out the imperfections, I think that's how we all learn and get better. and we'll be right back Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe

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and you actually gonna quote you back to you which i know some people hate so i apologize they think you said uh at that time i think you guys had already solved helped solve nine cold cases, including two murders, and maybe you can share sort of the updated stats with us. But in response to sort of Kelly's reaction to that, you said, I think the whole world would be a better place if we stopped acting like we're strangers, we're not. And I just loved that notion, which I think sort of speaks to this idea that we're all fundamentally one.

And at the beginning, you talked about growing up at this environment of like a very us versus them. And yeah, I'm just curious, like, how you came to this place of really, like, so truly believing in in the oneness of humanity and the philosophy underpinning season of justice. And if you can tell us about the great work that you're doing with that organization. Yeah, you know, I don't know, like, I don't know when it happened, but I, so, like, when I graduated high school, I knew I was going to, like, pay for my own college and all my friends were going to, like, these two state schools. And I was just, like, I wanted something different.

I wanted, I just had something in me that was like, I need to meet new people. I need to, like, see something different. So I went to Arizona. And I got a full-time job working in a hospital. I put myself through through school at night. And I think it was just like getting away and meeting new people. And like I think that like so, I believe that hate is rooted in fear or greed, but like a lot of fear if you don't know. And you don't, you're just afraid of what you don't know. And I feel like there's like so much growing opportunities in meeting people who had a different walk of life. And I just like every time I've had that experience. And I watched so many people, like, again, we grew up in this, like, Colty Church,

but I have watched so many of them the same way I have, like, come out of it and, like, I'm in a different place. Like, I've seen them grow up, too, where they realize that what they believed wasn't right. And it's, to me, it sucks that you have to, like, have something happen to you to understand it or someone you know to, like, to have understanding and compassion and love. But I watched it happen over and over where these things they said they were so against or hated or whatever as soon as they could relate to it they like things change and i'm and i'm so grateful that people are willing to change because i think the second you write someone off because of and don't give them the chance to that's not fair either yeah um but i think it like i don't know

i just have this sense that like when like every time i've gone to meet someone like humans are so complex and there's such a maybe it's the storyteller in me there's such a story behind every single person that I don't understand how people don't think we're connected. Like I like not to be like to kumbaya but like I mean we're all like sharing this planet and I like the stuff that's going on in the world even I just like I meet so many wonderful people and so many like lovely people who we all have like a very similar story and I don't know what it is where we're fighting over or fighting for and that's that's kind of For a piece. So it's just, it's like, it's maddening, right? And as far as the nonprofit, I mean, that really came from a need. Like, I like to get in and figure out what it is that people need without just like, you know, waving a hand or throwing money at something.

When I was working these cases over and over with law enforcement, I can't tell you how many times I got into one. And what they said was, oh, yeah, we've got like suspect DNA. Like, this thing could be solved, except there is no fun for this. We just don't have the money. And, like, it was baffling to me. Like, it can't be $5,000 that's standing between this murder getting solved or not. And they didn't want to take money directly from a media company. So I set up the nonprofit for that reason specifically, especially with all, like, the new genetic genealogy testing that could be done.

Like, they didn't have the budget for regular DNA testing. Science moves so much faster than law. And offering this nonprofit that. provided those grants. I worked with a former detective, too, even just to set up the grant-making process because so many detectives are just, like, intimidated by it. So we made it as quick, as simple as possible,

just to get money in their hands. And I'll have to give you guys the updated numbers. It's been, like, it's been a lot more since the Kelly Clarkson show. But, yeah, it's gone on to fund. I mean, 10, like, a few hundred cases, if not more. We've had, I think last time I heard, like, 16 solves. Wow. Wow. So it's more than doubled.

Yeah, Jane and John Doe's identified. I know you say, yeah. And that's just the nonprofit. Like we've also been able to do a ton at Audio Chuck. We do a lot of stuff in the true crime space and then a lot of stuff with our community in Indianapolis. So we've like done an endowment for a domestic violence shelter here. We funded a mobile medical clinic, did some resources for the homeless shelter. So like a lot trying to like build up our community because part of the mission I have as well,

we've got this whole true crime thing, but I've become really passionate about building. this media company in the Midwest. Like, it's, I want to make a really amazing place for people to come and work and work in media without having to go to a coast that a lot of people can't afford to live in. And I also, Indiana is like, I think this goes back to, like, my upbringing. Like, Indiana has very different beliefs than I do personally as a state and our laws and stuff. And I want to, I believe that if everyone who believes differently just leaves, nothing changes. And so I want to create a safe place where because so many people who, whether they're gay, trans, whatever it is, like, you can't, you can't just, like, leave oftentimes.

And I want to create a safe place for people to come to work and be themselves and live their rest life here. Oh, it's amazing. Well, we did it. We solved it. I think what we'll do, we will move to our final question. If you could go back to the 12-year-old, Ashley, what would you say or do? I had this like cheesy quote on like a wooden box that I bought from like what is essentially a Charlotte Ruth when I was 16 that I hung in every house I've had and I think I wish I would have known it sooner. And it just says that, um, not to spoil the ending, but it's going to be okay. And it's, like, it's, it's, it's so cheesy and it's so simple, but it's like really been my

philosophy for everything. Like, since I found that, it's like, it's, nothing's going to end. And it, like, you, like, you're, it's going to be okay. Um, I wish I would have known that sooner, like, as, and as a kid, when, when everything feels so big and world ending and altering all your feelings when you're young are what I should have done is brought my

journal on the show all the feelings feel so big and it does feel like your world is ending for like stuff as an adult you think is simple and it's not to like I think that what I loved about it it wasn't dismissive of the feelings it wasn't just like saying that they're not valid

or that they're not real or like you're not feeling that but at the end like if you make the right decision like you're moving in the right directions like it's it's gonna you're gonna be fine kid you're gonna be fine sweet I love that you had that on a you have that wooden box that you've put up in your house all your houses that's really sweet and you said you got it when you were 16 so what you said yeah I got it at like the UP mall in Mishawaka Indiana so I had just been at like like a kitchie store like I saw it roos or something so you were you

were pretty close to 12 when you already understood that I mean yeah yeah I was I've been a very mature person, I think most of my life. I just recently did one of those like astrological past live psychic things. Past live regressions, yes, Kendrick. I didn't look full, well, it wasn't a regression. He just like told me about my past life. And I think I carried a lot of that with me. So I came in pretty mature and pretty angry, so.

Oh. Well, this has been a delight. It's been so nice chatting with you. Thank you, Ashley. This is lovely. It's so good to meet all of you. It was so nice to meet you. You can get the missing half

wherever you get your books and you can follow Ashley Flowers online at Ashley Flowers. Podcrush is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navakavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at La Manada.

And as always, you can listen to Pod Crush ad-free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye. You know what I can't stop saying? Sorry, I know I'm assuming this is all going to be cut. Is the line from the finale of White Lotus?

Coconut melts off. Coconut milk's expired. Is that a spoiler? Kind of. You know, this one is much more obvious, but I keep saying, Piper, no, in my living room, just all the time. Oh, yeah. Buddhism, Buddhism.

You want to move to Taiwan? What?