Podcrushed - B.J. Novak

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Today the gang chats with B.J. Novak, the actor, writer, and all-around comedic force from films like Inglorious Basterds and The Founder, and shows like The Mindy Project, The Newsroom, and The Office. He recounts summer camp crushes, his slow realization that he was funny, and the prank that made him a Boston legend.    Follow Podcrushed on socials: TikTok Instagram XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. I had summer camp crushes, and I would write letters, and again, that was, okay, I can, I was much better at writing a letter, like a funny, long letter than I was at being suave at a campfire. So I really, my camp crushes really came alive in the off season. I was really, I was made for this era of email, and again, I'd be the perfect Joe Goldberg. you retire the roll. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Planning elaborate pranks on the principal's office. Welcome to Podcrushed. Well, that's about it.

I think we're happy to have you. Hello. Happy to have you. Navi, you have a question for us, don't you? Well, today's guest, B.J. Novak is a real prankster. and I was curious what is the best prank you've ever pulled off

or the best prank that's ever been pulled on you? Mm-hmm. I have... Penn, you don't seem like a prankster. I'm just not even close. Yeah, yeah. Literally April Fool's to me is...

I cannot muster. I cannot muster a single... Really? To give about pranks. Like, it's... I actually really admire people who do. Yeah. And by the way,

somebody who may or may not be known for this, Blake lively, was, as I recall, very serious about prank. Oh, and that, you know what's funny? I'm just thinking to myself. That's why you broke up. We finally have the real reason. Oh, that's so good.

The real reason, like I've been lying this whole time. Just hide it. Oh, it's too painful. No, she, you know what? She pulled a remarkable prank. Have I never told you this? No, tell us. So the reason this was impressive

is because she got like many people involved and my team of representatives involved. So, and my mom. I get an email. Just like, you know, totally like, oh, there's this press item that we're trying to kill, but just so you know. Like somebody thinks or maybe they've convinced,

Stephen Tyler like thinks he's your dad. From Erasmus? Whatever. Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. And I mean, I don't remember the phrasing, but I remember being like, well, you know, didn't even think about it for a moment because who would in their right mind think that that's true? And then I think the publicist is like a few days later.

She was like, you know, this isn't going away. Like we're trying to kill it. But like Stephen. Liv Tyler wants to eat you. Stephen believes it. I think something like it's getting a little bit weird because I think Stephen believes it. And I was like, I mean, okay. I don't know.

I don't know how to... And you don't call your mom at this point to be like, did you ever have a fling with Stephen Tyler? No, no, no. No, because it's like, it's like, because also knowing my mom and it was just like not even...

Yeah. Again, still, not remotely thinking that it's true. And then my manager, I think, calls at the time too, and with the publicist and they're like, so like, he's adamant now. And I'm like, and at this point, I of course don't think it's true,

but I'm just like, How could Stephen Tyler believe this? Like, there's no way. You have to be getting Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Thinks that I'm his, like, I can remember sitting at the table, like her breakfast table, well, the only table, the where we would eat. And then I think maybe she suggested, I think she suggested, call your mom. And my mom is so not an actress, so not a prankster either.

and she's upset and I'm like mom why are you upset and then she takes a pause that is like you know

the pause that sold me yeah and she goes why do you think we moved out of Maryland and and I'm telling you for something like

five to seven seconds which is a long time for something like five to seven seconds I was speechless and my world was rearranging and I was like I am I am Stephen Tyler's son no wonder I'm so musically gifted I was I was so like and I think by the end of that five to seven seconds I was already thinking like there's a way to play music here because you You know, I'd always wanted to play music. And I didn't want to exploit the man. I definitely didn't want to do that.

But I was just like, for a second, I mean, that's a long time to think that your whole life is reordered. And then what happened at the end of the seven seconds. I realized what day was. And I was, because, you know, the rationale kicked in. And then I think maybe, it's like, you know, she was a prankster, Blake. And so I think I, and then I looked at her and she probably at that point couldn't keep it straight. Oh, my God. of fools and then she just you know

I feel like there might have been one other person there I don't know who it would have been but I hear people kind of like laughing and clapping and I guess my mom too and I was and you know I was impressed I was like wow yeah you really put in a lot of work yeah and it worked for it to work at all yeah that's hard that's amazing well I don't want to tell my story anymore that's so good yeah it doesn't it doesn't involve at least two major celebrities

yeah we've got today a prankster in his own right, I feel like you already know who this man is. I don't know what kind of introduction I could provide that would tell you more about him. But we have B.J. Novak. He's a writer, director, actor, producer. He's a force. You know him, of course, from

the office. You also know him from films like Inglorious Bastards and the founder. There's also there's the Mindy Project. He's written a children's book, a best-selling children's book. He also has his film Vengeance, which he wrote directed

and start in. And most impressively, what you may not know is that he is on today's episode. I did it. Titular character. He just really wanted to say titular. Yeah, I could tell, actually. I thought, you know, there's something about that word. Stick around.

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Thank you so much for coming. coming on, honestly. It's really, really a pleasure to have you. You are so beloved by so many. I have long, or medium long, and jealous of you. Because take your pick of a reason, but my reason is that I read the book, you, and I loved it, and I wanted to make it into a movie, and I pursued the rights. No. Uh-huh. And I thought I should play Joe Goldberg. That's my thing. You're kidding. You would have been a good Joe Goldberg. Creepy guy in a bookstore. I couldn't do this. and I love the book by Carolyn Kepness and I looked into the rights

and Greg Berlanti had it and the rest of history and your show is obviously an incredible success for all the right reasons but I had the same idea what a great book that would be interesting

and so you wanted to make it a movie I saw it as a movie just because I wasn't creative I saw okay book movie maybe it will be like Harry Potter and there'll be a TV show and a movie we'll have different verses and you and I will have a crossover

At some point The fan verse will go crazy Yeah Oh there's an obvious joke The universe That's a that's uh If I had any more stomach to do Joe Goldberg

For Into my 40s I would do that Yeah I would milk it But um Yeah So so you know a little bit

About what we do here We start at 12 We'll go in both directions But just tell us a little bit about who you were at 12. How did 12-year-old BJ Novak see the world? What was he doing? Where was he?

12-year-old BJ Novak was trying to figure out the sudden transition from a world where nobody cared about what was cool. And people only cared about what was fun into a world that suddenly required. that suddenly required a self-consciousness that I hadn't had. I had a very fun childhood. I liked being funny. I liked goofing around with my friends and coming up with pranks and playing sports and, you know, things like that. And I remember getting to middle school and kind of realizing the hard way, wait a second, there's this whole other hierarchy.

There's something else in the air, you know? there's like a social status and I always remark when people say did you sit in the front of the bus or the back of the bus I sat in the middle of the bus like most people like that's how buses work most of the spaces are in the middle I wasn't I wasn't like a cool rebel in the back of the bus I wasn't a nerd in the front of the bus I don't know I was in the middle of the bus but I just thought that was a good seat yeah I was at the middle And that's also socially where I was. I wasn't a cool kid.

I wasn't an outcast. But all of a sudden, I could tell that there was something else going on. And there were kids who wore, remember there was a kid who wore case with sneakers. Oh, case with. I didn't understand. Yes. I didn't understand why you wouldn't wear a sneaker that, you know, you would see in a basketball player wear. Like, I didn't understand that there was style and symbolism of what you did and wore and who you hung out with.

I was late to realize all of that, and then I really, really wanted to be a part of it. Yeah. But I had to kind of study it. And that didn't come naturally to me. What was your entry point into it if you did manage to kind of break into that? I remember a kid with KSwis sneakers. Yeah. And I remember thinking, I don't get it.

They're just white sneakers. Why does everyone think? I thought we were ugly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they were such a thing. The other thing that I remember being sort of a big recalibration was when Beverly Hills 9-0-210 came out.

And that was like the Luke Perry original version, right? Yeah. And again, I thought of the world in terms of what's funny and fun. My family watched Cheers. Yeah. And then the other kids at school were all talking about Beverly Hills and I had 211. And all the girls had pictures. Yeah.

All the girls had pictures in their locker of it. Yeah. I was thinking, this is, the show isn't even funny. I don't follow. Why do you have pictures of this show? And so then I started watching it. And I had to go up to my parents' room because they would watch like, you know, NBC sitcoms, you know, which is what I really liked. And then I would go to their room to watch 90210 to kind of study like, what the hell is everybody talking about?

and um and i got it i got it i couldn't put it into words but then i was like okay i'm feeling something yeah i i want to be cool like him oh dylan's an alcoholic i gotta get alcohol like i got it it was like hearing rock music you feel it you can't describe it but i suddenly got like you know moody cool you know did you get a leather jacket vague no i could not afford that But that was, fortunately, that was a very good time, the 90s because those guys wore Gap. That was the cool brand. That's true. Oh, my God.

That's so true. Will that, will that ever happen again, that a broadly affordable brand will be the aspirational brand? So I still, the Gap was a little expensive back then. It was still hard to get Gap stuff because we shop to me. Yeah. Yeah. Gap stuff was good. I think it's come down in price.

Gap was a bit aspirational. Been in our public, forget it. Yeah, it's true. But I remember I could get a Gap thing now and then because generally you buy, if you want a white t-shirt, you get like a three-pack at like at Fine Lien's basement or T.J. Max or something. You don't go to the Gap for a T-shirt. That was very indulgent. But I would, I had Gap T-shirt, urban outfitters, you know. Yeah. Then you could buy stuff that kind of looked like the 90210.10. So I was like studying it. That was so 90210. So 9-0 was my first entry. And it's also. also what made me want to be an actor. Yeah. Because I also did this math, skipping a step of, those guys are really great looking.

That didn't register to me. I would just like, oh, they're actors. And I guess I'll just do that. And then I actually got really into acting. Then I would go to the video store and rent videotapes of all the movies. I looked up at the library as good movies. I feel like, it sounds like I was very studious. Yeah, you're studying a lot.

And you're acing the exam, it sounds like. Yeah, I was studying to be cool. And I would rent, you know, Robert De Niro movies and Marlon Brando movies. And I loved them. Yeah. Then I genuinely loved them. And it's funny that, like, thinking how I could be like Luke Perry is what led me to, you know, study Stunaslovsky. But that was my way in.

I was like, okay, well, if that's what girls like and that's what the Kiswis guys looking like, I guess I shouldn't do that. how early on did you make the connection with comedy because it sounds like actually in the beginning you pursued act I mean I don't know but it sounds like there was some kind of draw that was maybe more serious is that accurate it was I mean it was superficial the idea the scheme in my head was I would be like

I'd be like a teen idol because oh if you're an actor that's only I heard of was Luke Perry I'll just do that and then everyone will be obsessed with me so that was my eighth grade brain processing it. And then when I studied acting, I was like, oh, yeah, I was into the more serious stuff. And I really did. I still do. I love, you know, I saw one floor with the cougu's nest and taxi driver in my basement on VHS tapes. And I was blown away. You know, I'd never seen anything like that. So then I didn't get into that. For comedy was sort of like

something I realized was my ticket to cool that I didn't. expect. So my family is funny. As I was saying, you know, my family still watches Seinfeld. My parents watch Seinfeld or Key & Peel every night. We are like a comedy family. We talk in punchlines and revere stand-up comedy and written comedy. And so, and everyone always said that I was funny when I was a kid, but I thought of it as like not an impressive thing to be. You know, it was just like saying you a brown hair. Like, okay, cool, you know. And then I remember a couple comedy things came out that were cool.

The Simpsons was cool when that came out. And then I saw Pulp Fiction, which I wouldn't quite call a comedy, but it was very funny. And it was clearly very well written. And that was the thing in school everyone who said I was good at writing. I was like, okay, great, you know, better than not being good at it. But it didn't make a difference to me. And then suddenly I was like, wait. that thing that they said I was good at, maybe I could use that to be cool, to be the things

that I suddenly care about now, Neath Great. So then I was like, wait, what were you saying? Did you say it was funny? You know, then I sort of got interested in being funny once I thought it might be cool. But I never thought twice. It was like my dad was funny. It was like, hey, you should be a dentist like her dad. Like, okay, sure. And again, as a kid, I thought it was the best thing in the world. But then, you know, that, that brief eighth grade period when suddenly your world turns upside down, it took me a minute to find my footing in comedy again. It's not funny. You come full circle. Like, yeah, your only ticket is to be who you were all along. That's true. You know. It's true. Oh, I love that. Yeah. That's a nice thought. You mentioned one of the reasons you were

interested in becoming like a teen actor or an actor 14s was girls that that you noticed that that's what they were into an actor as a tea i didn't i wasn't thinking i'll be a teen idol in them oh i thought you wanted to be a teen idol i was like you know you didn't think that through because they would be teens and you'd be an adult i didn't think it through at all and then i go back to brown middle school and be the coolest kid yeah i didn't i was like that for someone who did a lot of studying i mean it's a little no um what was your experience around like crushes first love heartbreak around that time it really I had summer camp crushes, and I would write letters. And again, that was, okay, I was much better at writing a letter, like a funny, long letter than I was at being suave at a campfire. So I really, my camp crushes really came alive in the off season.

I was really, I was made for this era of email. And again, I'd be the perfect Joe Goldberg if you retire the role. Because I'm very good if that can be my method, way better than the in-person. You went to this summer camp consistently throughout middle school, right? From like 7th to 9th grade or 6th to 9th grade? I went a couple, I went to Camp Roma, and I went a few summers, 7th, 8th, 9th, around that, yeah. What happened at Camp Ramah? It was a bit of a free-for-all. I mean, it was supposed to have been a Jewish camp.

And I mean, it was a Jewish camp, but I think it was supposed to be a little more sort of pious than we took it. It was basically, as I remember, everyone just played basketball all day and had crushes. Yeah. So it was great. I loved it. But then Stacey and Leora were my crushes and I would write them letters. Two at the same time? Or spaced out?

Yeah, but it was kind of, I wasn't cheating on it. They were friends with each other. So I would like, I liked them both. I would write them both letters. They would tell me that, oh, I, like, Louer read me her letter out loud. And I'd be like, yes. I was kind of like, I didn't know which way it was going to go. It wasn't one single.

Did it go? Did it go a particular way? Again, I wasn't the math. I didn't think you were. They were more like an audience. Yeah, I was like, oh, the closer you get to this, the better it will be, you know. BJ, you mentioned pranks in your first kind of answer. and it seems like an important thread throughout your life.

So I want to know what's your first, like, prank that you're proud of? The first prank that I'm proud of was sixth grade, which I guess is middle school these days. It was the last grade of elementary school for us. But we had, again, this was a crush where I didn't do the math. I don't know how I would have closed with this crush. Not that you even, like, get a date in sixth grade. But there was a girl who had a crush on.

and we in library class you would take out a book and they'd have a library card right and then they'd if you would overdue book they would they would read who had overdue books in front of everyone to like shame you into bringing your book back do you know what I'm talk about can you even picture this or have I lost to you totally picture this no totally picture this yeah it may sense oh okay okay so anyway for this um I stole one of the blank book cards from the library and on my dad's typewriter I typed out a fictional book called like from BJ with love or something oh my gosh this is great and I signed and I got a library stamp too and I signed it out this is so random I signed it out in the girl's name

overdue and put it back with the overdue so the library would read it out I don't even if she is somehow listening, she'll be like, that's what it was because I think it was this crazy mystery in her class to make it seem like she had taken out this book, like she was interested in a guy like me or so, I don't know. What I was thinking, it was again, really vague. And you have a look on your face like, I don't know what to make of this. What do you make of this? Again, I didn't think things through fully. I had a lot of half-baked vibes. I hope that wasn't harassment. It just felt funny to me and it felt like a message. I mean, it wouldn't make you.

It wouldn't make the show. It's not that bad. But as I say it, I'm sort of like, it doesn't sound right. But there was no goal such as maybe we'll hold hands and go to a movie. You know, like, right. I don't know what the fuck I was, they were running for. Again, it was like a prank combined with a crush. It wasn't a grand gesture.

So were you there when they read it out loud? Was it the point for the librarian to be like, to be J with love or whatever it was called and then the girl realized that you loved her was that sort of what was happening in your mind no that's again I didn't even think of that through because at least that would have you could give notes on that plot you'd be like great I think I don't think she's going to feel love I don't think she's going to like that publicly I don't think that's going to get you where you want to go maybe the book title is different or maybe you just do something else but I didn't even have that I didn't have that I didn't have that But, you know, I do, I am remembering now a much more, I don't want to say traumatic story because people have true traumatic stories, but I was, how do I begin this? I was famous in my middle school for this dating story that never happened. So, okay, so we're back to seventh grade. I'm noticing the 902-102-0 fandom. I'm studying acting.

There's a school play. Okay? It's Oklahoma. And I auditioned for the school play and I get the lead. And I'm a seventh grader. And it's like, whoa, the seventh grader got the lead. I was definitely like on my way, right? Yeah.

And there was this girl in the play. She had a small part. And her name was Melissa Prince. And again, I didn't notice things like this. Melissa Prince was an eighth grader and famously hot, I guess. I wasn't even totally clocking things like that. People say. Right.

I certainly thought, looking back at, yes, she was, she was attracted, but I wasn't even thinking in those terms, really. Yeah. And then all of a sudden a rumor went around that Melissa Prince wanted to go out with me, B.J. Novak. seventh grader and I felt so my ego was like so big and I was also so terrified because everywhere I went people would say this thing and I barely knew who she was but I could tell from their expression that she was like gorgeous and like this was crazy and that I come out of nowhere again

I wasn't like a cool kid but like she had said her sights on me and then I knew her friend group Franny Kaplan was her friend that I was friends with. Now, my crush was on Franny, who was a better match for me. But Franny was trying to coordinate. We were all going to go to the movies. I wish I could remember this movie because it would be so funny. And, like, everyone's mom was going to drop us off at the Cleveland Circle Cinema in Brooklyn, Massachusetts. And so I'm waiting by the phone for, like, the plan, because we don't have cell phones and wait by the phone.

I'm literally waiting by the phone all weekend. I never got a call. And then Sunday, I get a call from Franny that everyone says I stood Melissa Prince up. And everyone can't believe that I stood her up. So now you're even cooler. I like the way you're thinking, but no, but that was it. Like, he can't do that. And then Melissa Prince was going to dump me.

And then the first time I ever spoke to Melissa Prince was when she walked up to me in eighth grade in my home room to dump me. I had never spoken to her. That was the first time you ever spoke to her. That's amazing. And I took it. My heart was pounding and I was so guilty. I was like so ashamed.

In retrospect, I was like, this all happened to me. But I was like, I felt so horrible that I had stood her up. I blew it. I just nodded. I didn't say a word. The whole thing happened to me. And then for the rest of middle school, the rest of junior high, the legend about me, the lore was I had, I don't know what you called it, went out with dated. I don't think it was dated.

It certainly wasn't hooked up. I had dated Melissa Prince, but stood her up and she dumped me. And I was like, didn't you date Melissa Prince? Is like, that was my first version of working on the office. Yeah. That was like for two years, I got, didn't she go out with Melissa Prince? Wow. I don't know what she's up to now.

That was the only time I ever spoke to her. Yeah. Well, he never cleared it up. It just, it just was what it was. And what do you make of this? What I love, like the 12-year-old me is, is like, to the 12-year-old you, is like, bro, you got to, you got something here. You got to work that. Like, that is part of your mystique now.

There's a way, now, by the way, the 12-year-old me did not think in these kind of transactional terms at all. No, but you're great. inside was you're even cooler now. That's crazy. You're so right. I mean, I had no swag. But then, of course, something about being cool, it seems preternatural. It's like I was not a cool to a girl, as you were saying, you were not a cool.

Like, I think typically the people who come on this show, we're not getting people who are cool in middle school. That's sort of the point. So there's, but there is this thing, like the person who looks good in a pair of K-Swiss's because, let's be real, they were ugly. They were ugly. I still don't know. but there were those kids who looked good in K-Swiss and they knew this is the thing about coolness

that seems so kind of ruthless it's like cool kids just know I feel like they just know and you weren't and I'm sorry but you weren't cool this is final pronouncement yeah the final like from one uncool kids to another and you know what's even worse now is like when I say I was the middle of the bus I like studied like okay I could easily figure out more or or less, okay, I can wear a Gap t-shirt, that's cool enough, you know, the sort of mid sort of fashion that prevented me from being an outcast also. Now, like, that's cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like looking back, the kids that like did not give a fuck. Yeah. They wore like sweatpants to

school and didn't give a fuck what people thought. Like those now, we see how cool those people are. And the K-Swiss kids will always be the K-Swiss kids. So the only people that are losers, Real losers are the people in the middle like me who are like, I think this might work. Come on. Like, I got that. I need something for the school dance, something that says, I'm not planning the dance, but I'm also here. I'm also here, you know, yeah. Stick around.

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What happened? did you do it. Yeah. A friend and I had gone to the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, which looking back, what a sort of classy group of teenagers we were that we would think like, oh, let's go to the museum, see what's playing. So we went to the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston just on a summer day, and they had an audio cassette tour called Tales from the Land of Dragons, which is a, was a ancient Chinese art exhibit. And you got, in those days, it was like an actual, sort of walkman style cassette player with a cassette in, and you rented that for five bucks and put the headphones on and it took you through. And one of us got the idea, why don't we

take one of these tapes, make our own tour, and then replace the tapes with our tour. And so we did that. We took the tape home, transcribed where everything was on the tour. And then we recruited a narrator, a kid in our school with a very deep accent. and we got ancient Chinese music on a CD from the Newton Free Library. This is so elaborate. We wrote a new tour and recorded it and printed out identical labels on stickers and put those on tapes. Hold on. And we got, we were 17.

This is like a high school heist movie. Like the level of elaboration. I feel like if you wrote about it in a college essay, it would get you into college. Like it's like, it's so good. Good. Yeah, so good. That's still the proudest thing I've ever. Still the thing I'm most proud of. Yeah.

So we got the stickers. We duplicated. Then we got 15 friends to go take the tour one summer day, each of them with a tape in their pocket. And during the tour, they would just sort of discreetly pocket the original tape, replace it with the new tape, then return it. The guard would rewind it for the next group. Wow. And the next group got our tour, which, if I may,

one of the proudest one of the things I'm proudest of in my comedy reigning career is that the first three minutes of the tape were identical so you are deep in this tour when the narrator starts going

off the rails. That's so smart. Thank you. Thank you for getting it. I'm still proud of this. So it's one thing if they put on the tour and immediately goes crazy. If you're in the middle of a tour, you're kind of sounding out. You're looking at and then he starts insulting the art and then insulting the museum and then like lashing out

at his wife who's like like in another room where he's recording it and you're like what is going on and it got crazy and crazier and more more inappropriate and we returned those tapes and then because we were good kids we left the the original tapes in a bag in a locker and left like a ransom note that they would find later it says your original tapes are in locker 16 and the Boston Globe ran a story on it

what had happened and that was just sort of museum more what was the tone of that story? The tone was bemused and suspicious it said that museum was investigating the company that made the tapes.

So you got away with it completely. And then every time I'd go back to Boston over the years I'd say, did someone once change? We got away and then I kind of gradually, gradually couldn't resist like a serial killer, not serial killer, but like the guys who have like a signature. Yeah, serial killer.

You know, I couldn't resist. I kept going back to the scene of the crime. I'd always go to the museum when I visited Boston and say, didn't someone once change this tour? They'd be like, it was this exhibit, and here's what happened. It was lore at the museum. And then finally I was on the talk show and I told the story and confessed to it.

And then since then the museum has known that it was me. And they invited me to speak. And I said, if you pardon me, I will speak. So the museum issued me a pardon. And my old high school friend and I gave a talk on sort of art and pranks. And it was a really, really fun, full circle moment to be back at the museum. BJ, you sort of... We have, like, a unique, perfect segue with you from high school to career because you went to high school with John Krasinski and you guys actually wrote a play together.

Is this, is this true? It was the senior show, the senior show, senior year of high school, yeah. It was an original satirical show. It was like an annual school tradition that was based on sort of a parody of the teachers and the school. And I don't know why they let us do it. And I don't think they let them do it anymore, but we did it. And it was very fun. And, you know, it got all the, like the whole school did it, not just the theater kids.

Yeah. Like the athletes say, like, everyone had to be a senior show. Yeah. And that is, I think, that's sort of how it's meant to be. I think that's what theater used to be, right? Yeah. It's like everyone's goofing off. What was your path from Harvard to punked?

Because I feel like punked also at the time that it came out was a unique, like, the coolest way that you. way that you could be in comedy like you really achieved your goal that was it i remember yeah i remember being on punked and another actor said to me uh this could really lead to something and i said lead to something i've arrived we're we're pulling pranks on m tv like whatever happens after this is not going to be like this it was huge it was huge i mean you guys were actually getting huge celebrities. You got like Beyonce and stuff. You got like the biggest celebrities all the time.

I wasn't there for that one, but it was so enormous. Ashton Coucher was so enormous as a star. Right, right. And I again, Penn, from total obscurity at that point, so I had started out as a staff writer on a show called Raising Dad, starring Bob Sagitt,

who became a dear friend on the WB. I think it was the network then. And it was, a very bland show. I was very lucky to have a job, but it was stifling. And it didn't feel like it was a path to much, even though I was on the Paramount lot on an official TV show, getting very well paid at a very young age. Like, it wasn't like next stop the Simpsons or anything. You know, it was sort of this very family show. But Bob Sagitt, I thought, had a really cool life. he did stand up and he starred in things and I had stopped wanting to, I had stopped thinking about

acting, but when I saw Bob, I was like, wait a second, all these people, I'm seeing the theme of sort of I study and what other people do to be cool. And then I'm like, oh, what do I already like to do, which I should have just done it the first place. I was like, okay, how did Bob? Bob just drives up in a Mercedes, like makes jokes for five minutes in the writer's room. Everyone kisses his ass and then he like drives home and he gets paid more than anybody. he's the only guy having fun. How do I do that? It's like, okay, well, Bob is a stand-up.

Okay. So I can write jokes. That's what I do here all day. I can say jokes. Like, you know, I've been in plays and stuff. I guess I'll just write jokes and say the jokes and be a stand-up and see what happens. So I started doing that. And then, as with the sort of high school acting, then I fell in love with it.

Then I watched all the great synops. I'd always been a fan of comedy, so I was already familiar. But then when I really studied. I sort of was in awe of it as an art form and wanted to be as good as I could be just for the sake of it. And I started doing it. It wasn't very good for a couple of years, but kept going. And then I started getting some traction and a producer for Punked on MTV. He was looking for sort of the next.

Dax Shepard had just been retired because he got too famous to pull the pranks. Dax was the first and still most iconic of the prank pullers. So they had to replace Dax. So they were searching around for comedians. And I was just right place, right time. My act had finally taken off. And I was 24. And they say, who's the next young comedian?

So I got an audition and improvised audition and got the job. And then here I am with, you know, the coolest guy in the world, you know, in 2004, Ashton Coucher. And pulling in all of these huge stars and you get one take. It's the best acting training in the world. I think about it because you get one take. Yeah. And the other person doesn't know, can't ever know your acting.

Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Like, what a challenge. Yeah. You know, you have a character, a motivation. You need to improvise funny lines. You need to show some arc, like, all of it. And if you are, if you ever are unconvincing, the whole thing is over.

Wow. I remember one time we were doing a prank on Tommy Lee. I was so scared. Yeah. So I was going to jump in front of his car, a stunt man, and get hit by the car and then I was going to pop-out as a paparazzi who had pictures of him killing something oh my god or maybe just hitting I was like the guy was like what the hell so he didn't die he didn't die but it hitting somebody yeah and I was going to I was going to extort Tommy

oh my god for the pictures and I'm like this is a tough guy yeah this is a guy who will get violent yeah yeah and it sounds amazing but okay and I remember I had my driver's license in my pocket because I didn't want my wallet on me. I just wanted to be as light as possible. I figured I should have my driver's license. And when we finished the prank, I took my driver's license out of my wallet and it was crumpled like an old dollar bill. Oh my God. I had somehow nervously like done that because I was so scared. So yeah, it was and it was definitely like it was the hardest job you could have as an actor in that sense. but it was also, as a prankster, it was the easiest because he didn't even have to come up with it.

They just hand it to you. It was incredible. And then what's your path to the office? And is it true that you were the first person cast on that show? I was the first person cast, not the most important person cast. It's not like they built it around me. I happened to be the first person cast for the smaller role of Ryan. What happened was, so then I was doing stand up around town and on podcast.

And yet again, I mean, this was sort of the way, maybe still is the way it worked, casting directors and networks, they look around, oh, who are people talking about? Who have you seen? And I ended up at a showcase of stand-up that Greg Daniels, who was creating the American version of the office, saw me at. And he asked for a meeting and he said, I really liked the way you paused between the jokes. It felt like you thought, you are better than people. And I like the way he paused between jokes. I have this idea that maybe we could have a tent who's just a temp, but he kind of thinks he's better than everyone. And I thought that what you were doing might be good for that. And I thought, oh, that sounds great. And he said, and I know you're a writer too. I'd love to read your writing. And so I had written a spec script, and I sent him that. And then at the time, the office was still a ways off. was getting other offers, but I really, I had this meeting with Greg and I really wanted to do that one show. And everyone, by the way, said not to because it was a remake of a British show and everyone thought it was a suicide mission and we were going to ruin it. But this meeting with Greg, he had been so inspiring and his values were so good about comedy. I really wanted to work with him. And the only way if you get on the office, I was like, could you just make me like the smallest tentative offer now in advance? So I got an offer, okay, you can act in the pilot.

And if it becomes a series, you can be a writer. And so that's why I was the first cast, but it was still, it was in a very small and non-pimital role. But yes, that's true. So I guess, like, I'm curious about this evolving relationship between writing and acting and now directing for you. You know, like how, because directing, I suppose, would have been the last thing to formally emerge, but you've of course been directing things clearly in this way. You know, you've been producing and directing essentially, like you even started with the pranks.

So I'm curious about how that's been evolving for you. Well, the incredible advantage I had is that the training on the office, I don't know if people get that anymore in the sense that it was 22 episodes a year. It had to be mainstream enough to play to sort of a broad, podcast audience back then on NBC, but it also had to pass as a documentary. Like I was saying about punk, like it actually was quite hard to do it right. And Greg Daniels, who really,

I think both strategically, so the show could last many seasons and morally, because he was a good person who wanted to be a mentor, taught everyone how to do everything. So I wasn't the only actor writer, Mindy Kaling was a actor writer. Paul Lieberstein was an actor writer. And then Steve Correll wrote a script at one point. A lot of the actors started directing on the office and a lot of the writers started directing on the office. So it really was this thing where the people who knew the office were taught how to do lots of different things in many cases. And it was a way to keep the show going. I mean, there was 200 episodes of that show. And it was the best thing that could have happened to people, especially like me and Mindy at the early stage of our career, that we were

expected, okay, it's not done when you hand in your script. You go to the edit bay. You work with the editor. You do a cut of the episode. And then you direct and you say action and cut. It's very easy in the scheme of things to direct an episode of a TV show that is already working, that's already up and running that you already know pretty well. I don't know Penn if you ever directed one of the shows you've been on, but you know what I mean. I did. Yeah, I did. And I fully agree. It's like, you know, the only reason I thought I could do it while I was also starring in the thing was because it's like, well, I already know this so well. Yes, you still have to take it seriously. You still have to take it seriously. But in the grand scheme of things, it's a great way to learn to direct. And then you realize so much of directing is just not being scared to direct. Someone told me it was Al Ruddy who produced the Godfather that they made that series about. I met him and told him I wanted to direct.

and he said in his gravelly voice, I quote it all the time. He said, you only have to know two things to direct what you want and how to get it. I thought that is so true. It's true about everything.

But it's especially true about directing. If you know what you want, which most people don't, you know, if you know what you want and you know how to get it, which is also hard, but not as hard as the first,

then you can get anything because it means you picture it in your head and you ask people for help or Penn, if you're already on the show, you know how to get that kind of performance or that kind of shot or that kind of joke or moment between characters because someone will know and you know what you're asking for and how to lead. And so directing came very naturally from that sense, from having done it on the office and having a sense, oh, okay, if I know what I want and I know how to get it, which generally means working well with people understanding what everyone else's job is,

then you can do it. But honestly, I've always felt that why the writer-actor thing was so natural for so many people in the office, it all is the same thing to mean more or less. Even acting, directing, writing, it's all just showing people what you have in mind, you know, and seeing if you can communicate, here's what I think is funny. I can do it with words in the script. I can do it with my facial expression. I can do it with exactly when the camera goes to that reaction shot. But it's all just expressing your sense of humor or sense of drama or whatever. So I think directing is easy if you know what you want and how to get it, but you need to learn in every context. And how was the leap to directing? Was Vengeance the first feature

film that you've directed? Yeah. It was very exciting to be so fully in something. I mean, in every way to be in it as an actor, but to have written the script, to be directing it, it was, I'm not an athlete, but it felt very athletic in the sense that you can't think about anything else. Your body is in it.

You wake up in the morning, immersed in it. You go to bed at night, like thinking, reflecting, but also training for the next day. You're fully in the world, what the world looks like, what the setting is. And it,

is actually easy in a way if you're that intense about something. It's like being a meditative state if you go so deep. It's often easier for me to go all in than it is for me to consult on somebody's TV show, which is easy in a different way. But in a way, it's easier to go all in. That resonates with me. When I, you know, the role of this character, Joe, on my show, you, is so central. to it. So when I was directing, I felt like I was just, oh, well, I have literally no time or bandwidth

for anything else, actually, you know, but this I can do. You know, I can just, it's just a hundred percent in. And there is something about it. You're right. It's like, it's very athletic. I mean, of course, in that case, I'm not writing. But, but, but you really do, I mean, you have to be able to answer every single question there is. And then you're in every shot and you're setting up every shot and it's like this is uh it's insane i wouldn't want to do this for very long but once you're in it you're just like all right this is the boiling water and you know we're just we're just going yeah and it's hard for me to imagine that you would have made a wrong decision when you're in the state you're describing yeah you know yeah yeah you know you know you know you know and we'll be right

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There's a line in vengeance that I wanted to ask you about where your character is talking to Ashton Couther's character who's a record producer and you are writing for a podcast that you're creating and you ask him for some writing advice. He said, if you were to give me some advice, what would it be? And he says something, I'm not quoting it exactly, but something along the lines of like, well, no one actually ever writes. You are just translating. You listen to the world and you repeat back what you hear. And that really resonated. And it made me wonder if it resonates for you, which I assume it does since you wrote it. But what are your sources of inspiration?

I think they always have to surprise me. I do believe in, it's funny, you always have to give your best lines to the villain. All the bond villains, they always say the wisest things their writer has to share, I think. I, you know, it's just anything that catches me by surprise. I have a notebook with me at all times, and I'm always just writing down whatever catches me by surprise. BJ, you also created a show called The Premise, and there was an episode that really, I thought they were all so brilliant and interesting and so different, like more different from one another than I would have expected even totally, yeah. Yes, or than anyone knew what to do with, but thank you. I was like, I've never seen anything like this.

But there was an episode called A Moment of Silence that was particularly like gripping. And I wondered if you could share with our listeners what the premise of that episode was and what the reaction was. Oh, sure. Well, the premise was a very short-lived show that I did on FX, an anthology show, where I wrote all the episodes and each one was sort of an experiment of sort of a wild idea taken seriously. They all sort of said in the present day. And moment of silence was about a father of a school shooting victim. The show really plays out the sort of slow dawning of this father in grief who seems to be joining the NRA as a spokesman, which is the greatest PR coup that the father of a shooting victim would join the NRA as a spokesman. And then it seems to be that he's just trying to get security clearance so he can take.

revenge from within the NRA at the headquarters. And his coworker, who is a wonderful friend of his, who is a lifelong NRA member, is the one who's trying to coax him out of his grief, but is also the one who's realizing, I think he's going to pull something and I need to stop it. And it ends up with this sort of showdown at the building where you're trying to figure out what his intentions are. So, you know, in a way of that, in a way, it's a comedy premise because it's such a wildly provocative idea, but it's, um, it's obviously a very dramatic execution of it. Yeah. It was really an acting piece because I really wanted to see what it would be like, uh, to be the, the person on either side of that, honestly. Yeah. And that's,

it was such a good. The dynamic between those two was so good. I hope they act together again someday. We're at our, our last question. Just going back. to 12-year-old BJ, if you could go back to him. What would you say or do? Just be yourself, but he'd never listen, you know, unless it was really me. And maybe if I brought some, like, you know, an iPhone or some proof or something, but like, I promise, man. But I think, you know, I.

Again, I feel like your question is, what message would I give? The message to me is so obvious. The message is, coolest thing you can do is be yourself. The best thing you can do is be yourself. The thing that you will get the most reward for is to be yourself as much as you can be. The thing that will make you happiest is to be yourself. That's so obvious to me that all I can think about is, how do I phrase it? Because I know I heard that advice so often.

and I thought it was the blandest most phony advice I never listened to that I had to come full circle to so all I can think of is like how do I phrase it so a 12 year will be like that's cool advice you know I don't know how to phrase it but I know what the message is Luke Perry has a message for you

I'm just imagining you with like a set of slides like and then you'll do this and then you'll do this and he's like okay maybe But I'd say, if I did do a slide show, I'd say all the things that worked out best for you worked out because you forgot about everybody else and just goofed off as yourself. Yeah. You just told the wackiest joke you could think of on stage. You wrote a children's book because you wanted to make a particular two-year-old laugh.

Yeah. You did a prank. You know, all of the times that you stopped trying to be cool and just be yourself will lead to your, quote-unquote, coolest moments. Yeah. Did you write it for a particular, for one child? That's really sweet. Yeah, I wrote it for my friend's two-year-old. That's so cute.

Immediately when it ended, it said, now let's read a book with pictures. But I didn't give up. I didn't give up. That's so cute. This was so lovely for you. Thank you so much, man. It's an honor to have you. Thank you for coming on.

Thank you, Penn. Great to talk to you and to both of you too. Yeah. Thank you. Sophie Now-bye. We are so excited that you can now listen to Podcrush to ad-free. on Amazon music. In fact, you can listen

to any episode of Pod Crush ad free right now on Amazon music with an Amazon Prime membership. If you don't cry,

we'll consider it a failure. So we're going to do our best to just like probe. But yeah. Okay. Yeah. Do you cry? I honestly, BJ?

It's a medium. Okay. I wouldn't say easily, but we're going to work for it. Don't be shocked if it happens.