Podcrushed - Breaking Down "YOU" S4: Part 2

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Watch this episode on YouTube! https://youtu.be/b3Z2gtnE5Rk The gang is back with another bonus episode breaking down YOU S4, Part 2. Penn shares why episode 8 is his favorite of all time, where season 5 might find Joe, and what it was like to (SPOILER ALERT!) direct all his previous leads. As always, this episode is full of spoilers. Tread with caution. Follow us on socials! TwitterTikTokInstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonado Hey there, prod crushers. You're turning in today for a very special bonus episode. What was that? That was a little bit of Conan O'Brien doing like a bad... It was an impression of Conan O'Brien doing an impression of him as a teen. Yeah, right. Let's just pontificate in a moment for how nice it was when we had Conan.

Oh, so nice. That's not today, though. Bring him back. We don't have any. We got no, Conan. We're just talking about Bonin. No, it's my show. We're talking about...

David in the background is like... We're talking about my show you. This is a bonus episode of where we're recapping part two. Full of spoilers. Same Warner. Same warning as last time. If you have not watched part two, do not listen to this episode yet. This is Pod Crushed

The podcast that takes this thing out of rejection One crushing middle school story at a time And where guests share their teenage memories Both meaningful and mortifying And we're your host I'm Nava, a former middle school director I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher And I'm Penn, the middle school dropout

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Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. We're bringing you another special episode of Pod Crush, where we break down part two of season four of you. I'm so excited.

I have truly been waiting for this moment with bated breath. Me too. clearly yeah I can't wait we talked about this when we debriefed part one but for nava and I

part two is what was the word juicy juicy now one of Nava's favorite favorite favorite to use and also she says it it's like it's onomatopoeia juicy

yeah it doesn't have the same connotations I love a TV show that's juicy right yeah and it's clear it doesn't have the same connotation for me when you say that I'm not like yes I'm like, oh.

What would make it juicy for you? Like, it's intellectually enlightening. It makes my frontal cortex expand. Yeah, that's, um... All of this is so sexual. I didn't even think that, but you're right. Yeah, what would it be for me? I don't know.

I don't know. Pass. That's what this whole thing is going to be. Pass. Oh, that's a good. Pass. Well, Penn, maybe we can get into it. When we filmed an episode about you, our first episode,

that went up on YouTube, you described season four in one word. Oh, right. Well, I was, yes, I was forced to, though. And I don't know that it can be done, and I don't know that I did a great job, but yes, I said nope. Well, can you break that down for us? What did you mean when you said nope? I think because every

time you think you know where it's going and what it's really trying to say, you're like, oh, no, that wasn't it. You think in the beginning of the season, probably, that the whole question is going to be who's doing the killing? Yeah. Well, by episode five, we know who's doing the killing.

Or... Do we? Do. Um... So then... Perfercial cortex just shrank back. In episode six, Phoebe gets kidnapped by her stalker. Yes.

And taken up to the hotel room. So episode seven, by the end of episode seven, you know that Reese isn't... That Reese is dead. Yep. And that Reese is not Reese. Yes. And that's like the second reveal that everybody thinks the part two is about.

So you got three more episodes left. So that was really what I meant. It was just like, nope, nope, that's not it. Nope, that's not it. Interesting. You know, and then by the end, it's just like, where's this going to go? I thought the nope meant you think Joe's going to change.

Nope. That's too. That's probably better. Comment below whose nope is better. Penn is or Nath. I have to say. Like for Penn? Subscribe for Nava.

Both for Sophie. I have to say that when I watched episode seven, I was the last one out of the three of us to watch part two. And I was texting you guys. I was texting our group chat, like live tweeting basically as I was watching. Oh my God. I didn't see any of those. You can scroll back. He gets some three days later.

And when Reese is killed and then his hallucination of Reese. of Reese pops up, I was like, oh, he has a twin! Oh, that's so good. Oh, I'm so glad if that was your reaction. I'm so glad. It was funny because she was like, oh my God, best plot twist ever.

And I was like, I said something that gave it away. Yeah. And I saw it coming in episode five. And Sophie was like, you knew he had a twin? No, I said, you knew there were two of them? Yeah, you said you knew there were two of them. So then I was like, oh, I think you're not as far along as I think I was. You mean developmentally?

No. No, then at the very last second he says Rees did know her, or Rees didn't know her and we do have her in a cage. Then I realized like, oh, okay, he's part of Joe, not part of Reese, but there was a split second where I was like, oh my God, this wasn't what I expected. Yeah, right, right.

So as you just mentioned, Penn, there are a ton of plot twists and I watched it a second time. And as I was watching the second time, I was like, wow, they really left a lot of breadcrumbs. My favorite one, I'll say at the end, there's like a very, very obvious one. But I thought it'd be fun to just go over some of the breadcrumbs,

like the clues that they gave to the twist. So the first clue, I don't know if this is in order, but the first clue that I thought of was that they showed a shot of the condemned bomb shelter. And we should be thinking, like, why would they show a shot of a condemned bomb shelter unless it's going to be the place where the cage will live? Yeah, and that's when Joe's walking with Kate

and he mentioned, you know, it's funny. When you just said breadcrumbs, I was like, I'm not sure about any of these breadcrumbs. I don't call any breadcrumbs. There's so many. I hope they're most of the last. Yeah, I'm truly interested to hear what they are. But, yeah, I think that was where...

Look, the whole time we were shooting... I always trust the writers and producers implicitly. Like, they know how to make this thing. And they know how to make it work. So it's like, don't let me get in... That was also why I waited until season four to direct. I was like, don't let me get in there. Don't let me get in there.

I'm going to try... No, no, don't. So, yeah, so along the way, I was like, is that gonna... How are we going to give a nod to the bomb shelter and not have it feel like, what's in the bomb shelter? You know, but, yeah. It's subtle enough, yeah.

Yeah, and then we noticed that Reese's monologues kind of mirrored a lot of Joe's inner monologue and his voiceover tone. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of his monologues are the same tone as yours. Oh, you mean when he's alive? When he's alive and he's giving monologues. To Joe, though.

To Joe, they matched Joe. I noticed that the second time, too. I was like, oh, they really had to mirror Joe's tone. So that kind of almost had to play like three different people in a way. You had to play Reese, but not that much, like the real Reese. Yeah.

Then he had to play the Reese that's getting to know Joe who has to seem like a real person a little bit. Yeah. Right? Who's like kind of congenial or... Yeah.

Have we been through this before? What's the difference between genial and congenial? Is this... We've not been through this. Okay. Congenil was the right one. And then he's like the wreaths that is like, now you know I'm not real.

Now I'm going to be really crazy. I feel like his accent changed. too. I am really curious how he thought about that. I do know, because I was there, that he was never positive, nor I didn't think anybody could be. I think it's like you're always, you're finding that. I was never positive. I don't think the directors were positive. And, you know, the writers in L.A. were just like, just keep going. Yep. That's right. Yeah. Just keep going. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So, yeah, that was. a very tricky

line to walk with Ed's monologues because he has so many he really does have a lot of them he's talking so much that you have to start wondering like yeah yeah it's true

it only happened once so I don't know if this is a breadcomer or not but the first time that Reese and Joe come together in person is right after Joe and Kate have boinked is how I wrote it I don't know why you might want to talk to the writer

I should be in that writer's room guys hire me the first time that Reese is waiting for Joe in Joe's apartment, and we don't even know how Reese got in. Reese is wearing the same outfit as Joe, and I think that that's a breadcrumb. And it's the only time, but they're wearing the same outfit. It surely, shout out to Sam Perry, who handled costume. That was a particularly tricky scene, I think, because at that point, you know, I mean, again,

I'm, Ed did something that's very hard to do, which is like, he had to be a, he had to be convincingly like somebody who's capable of this but then all the talking he's doing has to be very charming you know in my recollection we were just you know for two episodes it's like really

on a razor's head of trying not to tip our hats too much and in that scene I think maybe more than any other it was you know I think we both in that scene we were like you know it was a work in progress I watched it a second time with my dad

and I will say that when Reese was like in the apartment waiting my dad was like he didn't figure it out but he knew that that was wrong like he was like how did he get in they're not even going to explain it they're not even going to try to explain how he's just waiting for him in his apartment well they did actually because I rewatched it maybe it wasn't the first time he came in but

that was a breadcrumb we noticed was that Reese could kind of come and go as he pleased into Joe's place but he says growing up in council apartments council flats you learn how to pick locks that's right he does Yeah, there's always a nice. Yeah, there you go.

Also, I really feel like we should have Tommy on here. We should be like... We need to bring him on. We should have had him in this episode. Yeah, no, really, really. Should I call him, tell him to come over? Do another bonus. A bonus bonus with Tommy.

Actually, my dad's commentary during the show is very hilarious. I'm sure. It's so good. Okay, another clue is that the key to the bomb shelter cage area is in the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hydebook, which is sort of like a nod to Joe having two. personalities this season. That's right.

I forgot about that. That was a good one. I totally missed that. And then you put that on this list and I rewatched and I was like, oh my God, how did she catch this? It's so quick. Yeah, you're good. You're good at that.

Thanks. And then there was Phoebe Stalker being an erotomaniac, erotomaniac. How do you say that? Erotomaniac, I think. Erotomaniac. I remember when I watched that episode, I watched that episode and then took a few days to finish the rest of the part two. And I texted Nava and I said how much I loved that twist of her,

or that plot point of her stalker kind of being obsessed with her through the TV and that commentary on social media. And Navajo was just very quiet. And she was like, are you talking about the waiter? I couldn't figure out why she was being so cagey. Joe's also neurotic maniac. Is that? Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty cool.

Cool marrying. Okay, my favorite plot twist, not plot just my favorite breadcrumb is that in episode five, they showed Joe committing all the murders exactly the way he actually committed them. They actually do, yeah, right? Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And what's the context again? It's when Roald has him and he's like,

here's your, eat the reach killer. And he's explaining it, and they're seeing it, but it's sort of like you think it's a projection of Roll's mine. But you're actually watching Joe kill everyone in the exact manner that he kills them. I think that's brilliant. Yeah, no, no. This is actually where I think, like,

it so pays off in part two in ways that you really don't anticipate because you don't realize how many more twists are coming and you know and that that is to me the the possible I shouldn't say shame but it's just like to me I I just I shame Netflix again do it Penn yeah yeah Netflix I'm gonna need a job after this show ends so but wait I have another question for you so in episode eight which we'll get into later my favorite episode from the whole you can in eight and nine hide for me but eight just brilliant blew my mind in episode eight it's the only time we're

in the whole series that we've ever seen, the opening credits, be different. It's like a pencil drawing, and I think we're given to think that it's Marianne drawing it, right? Because she's an artist, she uses pencil. And then the whole episode is narrated from her point of view, and she's talking to her daughter. But we think it's like, we think it's Marianne's imagination, sort of trying to give herself some relief from the horrible situation that she's in. But then later we find out that she is alive and that she is returned to her daughter. So I'm wondering, did she tell her daughter that fairy tale? Were we just seeing it?

Yeah, that's what I think. Oh, that's so cool. That does actually give me little goosebumps. That's really cool. That's sort of what I think. I mean, I don't know. Okay. I just freaked out about it earlier, but episode eight and nine, so good.

Let's talk about them. I don't have a question. I just want you to talk about them, how it felt for you to perform them. Because they really do stand out. Eight does something really special. Eight is very much the most. We never get inside the female protagonist's head what it's like to be in the cage. They finally, after four seasons, it's the fourth season.

And that's, like, remarkable. there's just so much about that episode that's really special and I want to know for you on set, sort of a huge part of it what was it like? We have had the female perspective before and you know there's a Beck got her bit in the cage

with voiceover love didn't have time in the cage as much as she had her perspective and then like her bits with 40 so that's always something that they've been doing a bit of it's like it's always this nice tipping the hat

towards a different perspective but they can never quite do it in the way that they've now done and so something about episode 8 and so the first time I saw by the way was when I was doing ADR which is additional dialogue recording after I'd done like recording

some of the voiceover for like the last couple of episodes I then had to do some for bits of Joe when she's seeing him or something I had to be doing like the the creepy joe like asking her like when she's getting out of the box when he's taking her out of the box to put her in the cage and he's like hey how you doing buddy that kind of thing like i had to be doing that and so that was when i saw all that cut together for the first time and because i wasn't in that stuff and because i had to be prepping for the next episode and because it's just an overall just all-consuming role i actually had only read the script for that stuff with her i think i think once maybe twice so i wasn't focusing on it wasn't my job so i actually wasn't really fully appreciating what was happening to be honest and then when i saw it cut together i was just like

that's the whole point of this show we've been the entire series because he's such an unreliable narrator because he's ultimately like all the things that i say about him in press and we we know that but we watch it it has to have always been in order for it to be what it is which is continuing to succeed in a good show I think it always had to be leading to some kind of authentic we are not seeing from Joe's perspective

and we got it in a way that I just don't think we ever thought we were going to get it like it just something about it just hit me as so like I was like oh wow and Tati's performance is amazing it's the performance of her career

right and I wasn't there for any of that so like just all of it it was actually really lovely it was so nice for me as Joe I mean think about it I'm always doing that I'm always doing all of it like I'm always like there And I was able to watch it

And I was like, that is so good Yeah That is so like just refreshing and And poignant and meaningful And it to me It just in a moment Cast retroactively the rest of the series backwards in time in a new light

I just I love it Am I correct in saying that there's no voiceover From you? There's no voiceover from Joe in that episode It's probably true I'm not sure I don't think there is no no no no In the episode is probably not not true because it's with her for what about half the episode or maybe the first 20 minutes or something but at least all of those scenes with with marianne yeah her storyline there's

we don't hear from you at all we only hear from her and i found actually how that made me feel as a viewer towards joe well what was so interesting is i realized that when we do get inside your head when we hear your thoughts no matter what you're doing you are still charming like it's still there's still a little part of you that is forgiving Joe but when we don't and I see we saw you at the table with Marianne and you're watching Reese

on the screen also I'm sure it has to do with your acting in that episode too probably not but you were just I just wanted like I hated you a lot more in that in those scenes she got catharses for everything that's been building up

over the last two years I just thought that was so interesting I'm like I hate Pat Joe No, it's true. You're odious in that episode. Absolutely. Episode 8 is so interesting because it's both, I think it's both like in this season a return to the you that we're familiar with and a departure from things that have been established in you. Like, it's established that the female lead will always have a moment where she's charmed by Joe and then the veil is lifted.

But Marianne is in this season the whole time knowing who Joe is. Yeah. Which is like an interesting perspective to see how things unfold. and sort of the biggest shift in this season is that Joe's mentee is on to him and that's never happened before and then the season plays out and we'll get into that

where he harms his mentee and he's never done that before so I thought that was really sort of like setting the ground for what he's going to do to Nadia begins in episode 8 and that's really interesting it's like the show took some departures

it did yeah I mean again I think like this is where this is where Part 2 pays off you made it you got there how it feel Well, Penn, you directed episode nine of the show, right? Another great.

Incredible episode. And in this episode, we get to see all of your previous, all of the previous female leads from you. Yeah. And you have a moment with them. Well, not all of them, but which I can tell you in a moment, there's a little bit of a nice little nod to another one. We weren't able to get because of a scheduling conflict. Oh, okay. But sorry, finish your question.

So I was just wondering what that was like to direct your previous female leads. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience with that episode? I mean, it was just what you would think. Like, it was poignant because, like, you know, both Elizabeth and Victoria flew in. They were there for such a hot second. It was so quick. And because I was directing everything else, like, there was no time to really even bask and enjoy it. It was just like.

Yeah. Were they there at the same time? Did Victoria and Beck meet? I don't think so. Victoria and Elizabeth. I never call her Elizabeth. Did Victoria and Elizabeth meet? I don't believe so

I wonder if they have I don't know if they've meant but yeah so it was just it was I mean I think particularly in the cage with Victoria it was just like

well this is where the show ultimately works best now the caveat to that is actually that the show I think works best this season in the cage without Joe

you know so that's cool I think it's like you have season one and I know this is entirely an answer to your question and I'm just taking it because it's an appreciation of what the series actually does.

It's in a way you can never repeat season one. Season one is not really meant to be repeated I think. I mean it's just it's you're never going to be able to do that arc again and so then the answer in two is to be like well we have to bring in someone

who's like basically his equal you know we have to bring in somebody who's not going to fit into this mold that you think the show's going to repeat. And so for seasons two and three we benefited from that and victorious performance and love as a character and it actually just continued to elevate the show

so returning to Just Joe I think it then it has to then so really what I think is happening by the way is that is that season four is is like the episode eight to season five which is like episode nine I think like there's there's a does that make sense so here's unpack it a little bit more so so so what I mean is that

season four, I think, is not going to be as rewarding as it will until we've seen should there be one, season five. Now, this is not even, I've, we've, you know, there's no spoiler here. Like, we've not shot it. We don't know that it's happening. But, but I think it will. And I think now,

we really have done something different every season. Now that you can see retroactively. and and I do believe that season there's got to be a really satisfying resolution yeah that makes sense and resolution more than conclusion it's like this has to resolve

not for Joe it has resolved for us like what have we been doing in this crazy ride this whole time because it is a bit unique in that way it's like it's such an intense and crazy show with Joe at the center and Joe has now actually changed like he's actually changed

how has he changed some people would say that he's embraced his true self but i think that's not true because embracing your true self would actually mean something higher like what he's done is he's succumbed to his lower nature he's fully succumbed so you think he's now like peak evil he's set up to be peak evil i think so and so now that everything about the show the same way that part two of of season four is so rewarding and makes part one make more sense i think that's the that's the relationship seasons four and five are going to have that makes sense that's what that's yeah I feel like you see that he's peak evil in the scene with Nadia, where he tells Nadia, you know, you realize that Joe killed her boyfriend and he's sending her to prison and you realize he has absolutely no heart any longer.

Yeah, it is amazing because in the past the mentees have been used to humanize Joe to show that there is this part of him that wants to like take care of a child or nurture a young person's potential, you know, protect them. And that's, like, the good that he sees in himself. Yeah. That sort of justifies the bad that he does. Like, he only does bad when he's forced to. But now they completely eliminate that. Like, Joe is just evil. Like, he will destroy anyone who gets in his path.

And we'll be right back. All right. So, let's just real talk, as they say, for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like

you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down i want to know that i'm that i'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but i need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly i turned to symbiotica these these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and i'm telling you um even before us i've done ads for these

guys it was a product that i uh i really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that i use i use i use uh the the what is it called liposomal vitamin c and it tastes delicious like really really good um comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i think it tastes great i use the liposomal uh glutathione as well in the morning um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and eight which is really good for for i think mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't

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slash podcrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go go to rosettastone.com slash podcrush and start learning today. We spoke with one of your castmates on this season. I don't know if her episode will be out yet, but she was telling us a little bit about what it was like to be directed by you. And one of the things she said that was so nice is that because you come from a background of acting, that the notes you give feel either like easier to follow or to take. but you know you're giving them from a place of understanding being on the other side of it.

And I, Nav and I were talking about feedback generally a few days ago. And I was thinking, it is always really nice when you get to get, have feedback from somebody who is, who has experience in whatever field they're giving feedback. Right, right, right. Yeah. And you know what you also said in that episode was that you both were like, you're reflecting on how I don't ever give you positive feedback in this show. And, and, and sure, part of that is banter. part of that is true but but but but um i'm not going to give you positive feedback i was like it's because this is not a field i've experienced in now as an actor

i don't think that that's a criteria for giving compliments but no we're not fishing we're not what i'm trying to say is like in in in my element it's it's very easy to see what's needed you know it's very easy to see it's very easy to speak to another actor you know just because it's like it's what i know it's what i know probably better than than than anything i mean you know i mean directing television is different from directing film you are not in the in the driver's seat in the same way you are you are you are it's like it's like there's two steering wheels And you are facilitating a process. So it was a forgiving first directorial experience.

You know, like, if prepping an entire series, for instance, you know, being a producing director, like, that would have been an entirely other lift. But I did love it, you know. Yeah. I will say that for anyone who wants more details on Penn directing that episode, we did talk to you, like, right after you directed it while you were still in London. and there's a long clip on our YouTube like a 10-minute clip of you

giving some more details about that experience so if you're interested Penn can you share what I was texting you when I was watching that up I was like texting as I was watching the episode it's probably too self-aggrandizing feature I don't remember what you said I mean I know you were very kind but like

no I was like genuine because I had watched the first part for better or for worse I like will not like lie I mean I tell light lies sometimes but in general I try not to lie I'm pretty straightforward I try to be tactful but Penn asked me what I thought of the first five. I hadn't seen the second five and I, I, I,

they, without the second five, they weren't my favorite. And so I was like, oh, how do I tell him this? And I didn't know it was going to get way better. So I had, like, sent some messages around it. And then the second half, to me was, like, instantly, like, just so gratifying. And it made me appreciate what the first half was doing and why I had some limitations that had. But when I got to episode nine, I was, like, freaking out that Penn directed it because it was so good. And I didn't realize until halfway through. So then I was just, like, texting him. I was Like, were you born to direct? It was just so amazing to see him in that role.

It was such a good episode. Yeah, I mean, that's very kind. I do think that, I guess what I was trying to say about direction in television is that, I don't know where the line between, like, I think a lot of that is because of the writing of the episode. I think a lot of that is because, and it's not just the writing of that episode, it's what's happening in that episode in the arc of the season and in the arc of the series. Yeah. I do think that episode Probably 8, 9, 10 is my favorite kind of like Yeah, yeah

Maybe the whole series, I think I mean 8 is definitely my favorite episode of the whole series But then maybe what 8, 9 does It's like really gratifying So yeah, I mean I think I was I was given a great episode to direct And I think the one creative stamp that I left on it

was the dream sequence that I was able to shoot it in a way and oh my goodness it was still so hard to finish it in time and there's cuts in it that still really bother me but like we just weren't able to get to everything that I imagined and oh my goodness it was yeah it was such a so painful you have to do a director's cut of the episode well no it's like we literally weren't even able to film that like for instance that shot of me turning around and seeing Victoria for the first time

where I have this like borderline totally comical, bad expression of my hair so I'm like, who's it going on? That shot, we had, we were on borrowed time already, we were way over. I literally just like, after we had done some, we'd shot the whole sequence so many times and so many different angles,

I just was like, just move the camera in and we shot that in one take and it was so last minute but it was such an important shot like we didn't have joe's reaction to seeing love and it was like because there were so many other important pieces to get to make the dream sequence feel surreal you know it's just like all the crane shot over the over the cage there was even like a there was a yeah there was even still stuff cut from it but anyway it was it was flying by the seat of of my pants and our pants and um and some of the some of the best moments in that sequence were got

were gotten like totally last a minute like we only had one take it was But I didn't know that Victoria was going to make an appearance in this season. You didn't give us any spoilers. And also, when we debriefed part one, you were like, I just want to know who things love is coming back. I was like, oh, she's definitely not coming back. Well, she doesn't come back. No, she doesn't come back.

But she does make an appearance. And I mean, because her character is so beloved, I think that's a big deal that she shows up. I was telling Nava, though, that as soon as she showed up on screen, you know she obviously she's not real it's the memory of her i was like i'm so happy but i'm so sad because i know it's going to be over in in a minute or two minutes she still is one of my favorite characters i had the same reaction like i i really liked seeing beck i liked seeing elizabeth as beck um but when i saw love i felt like very sad because i knew it was going to end quickly and there's something about pen and victoria that is electric together like

There's just something that I haven't seen with many other actors. I've seen it a few times, but I haven't seen it with you and any other person on that show. And I did want to ask you, does it feel different when you're doing scenes with Victoria? Because it feels different for the audience. What Victoria does and has as a person, as a creative person, like as an actor, she's, she's exceedingly committed. And her character is also designed in a way that she simply is, she's, she, and equal. Beck was never...

Joe and Beck were never... That's such a good point. Joe and Beck were never at all aligned. Yeah. It really was Joe, all about Joe. All about Joe and being like, I'm just gonna, I have my delusion.

So I'm going to... She was just an object the entire time. Like, so there's no real connection. The connection was far more along the lines of every other kind of like meat cute you've seen and just turning that into like just kind of like jacking up those... Yeah.

Chemicals, right? It's just like, whoa, love the thing. and then with and then frankly the next one is love they didn't even you know Marianne is to be honest like she's kind of like okay we've done the impossible

and that we've like given Joe an equal and now this like actually we've taken a show about one man and made it about two people so then Marianne is like she's not even in the whole arc of season three she's you know and she is also a very different character I think the point is that she's on to him though

which is cool yeah I think the point is that love is actually like Joe and she's made to be very smart. You know, even though Marianne is intelligent, she's not made to be the same way. So actually what Joe and love are able to do together is actually Joe is able to be more, like if I'm thinking back to season three, like I was able to do more in scenes with love, I think, because. when he's angry with her like he's the real hymn is coming through like there's no veil there so there's so as an actor

I actually think the way I'm able to play Joe when he's in a scene with love is by design different and then Victoria's commitment and talent on top of that to that role just unlocks it and I honestly think what you also see with Joe a lot is him being exceedingly reserved

because he's hiding things but he can't do that with love in the same way So therefore, I'm more present in the scene. I'm actually thinking less. I'm doing more. So I've always enjoyed scenes with her the most because they do give me the most to do. Let's talk about Kate.

We sort of establish me in part one that she's a new kind of love interest, different in some ways. But I really want to know, I had this question as I watched it, especially the second time. Is Kate evil? Kate is interesting because there's a different side,

to Joe coming out. So in the world where neither of them are evil and they're both protagonists, like they actually have a friendship that is different, I think, in quality from the other relationships somehow, right?

Like it's like somehow it's more of a pure... I'm not really sure how that works, but it is. He seems the most himself with her at the end of it. Yeah, like himself... Well, at the end of it, yeah. So I haven't figured that out. Did she know her dad would kill Adam?

Because her dad, Greg Keneer, implies that she only says, what she said in front of him so that he would take the action of having him killed. Yeah. Do you think she did on some level do it for that reason? I actually don't think so. You don't think so. Her and her father have such a, like, they're having a conversation that is totally different from the conversation that you're hearing, though.

That's true. So, you know, so actually, I mean, again, turning her into really a real person, would that person, that person would be mostly unconsciously trying to get her father to do something about it. Yeah, I guess you're right. Yes. Okay, do we think that she suspects that Joe killed Tom? I think she must. I think she must. I mean, that was always unclear to me as well.

Okay. And then my final question on this line, in the scene in the hospital where he's like, I'm going to tell you everything, let's start with my name. I'm Joe Goldberg. Does Joe tell her everything? That is also something that the writers are going to have to specifically decide because it really does change the trajectory of the next season.

I think he withholds as much as possible unless he's asked directly because that every bit of information that is revealed gives you more time and story to use but I don't know I mean again it's funny

sometimes as an actor you really don't need to know these things you just really have to be playing the moment so Kate says to Joe many times she doesn't want to know about his past there are times when he's like starts to tell her or he's not going to tell her, but he's just telling her,

I have a past, I've done bad things, and she tells him again and again, she doesn't care. And part of the reason is because she herself has a past that she's not proud of, and she doesn't want to get into that, and she doesn't want to be defined by her past, and so she gives that to Joe as well. And I wonder what you guys think about that concept

if we bring it into the real world. Like, is there value in turning a blind eye from the past of a partner? That's a really good question. I think it's very contextual. Right? Because like overlooking the faults of others

for the sake of actual love makes a lot of... Well, because you actually are good... You need to do that to have a successful relationship period. Like, you know, um... That seems to be a part of love. I don't know.

I mean, it seems to be like you need to overlook the faults of others because everybody's got faults. At what... But where do we draw the line? I think you should pay, attention to patterns. Like if someone, we all have one-offs, like things we've done that were like, I can't believe I did that and you never do it again. I think we all have those. But then there's also like we have patterns. And so I think like if someone has a pattern

of infidelity and fidelity is important to you, I don't think you should overlook that. Oh right. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. So yeah, I think that's my answer. Yeah. Is it a pattern or is it like a mistake that someone made in the past that you're just like using to like bludgeon them or, like, you know, not even give them a shot when we've all made mistakes. Yeah. But I don't know, this is tricky. I don't know if you should go digging into people's past. Like, I think if the information is available to you, use it.

Like, make an informed decision, but don't, like, go digging into someone's past. Yeah, I actually really agree with everything you just said. I think those are the right discernments to make. I do think in a situation like Kate and Joe's, if we're not talking about murder, if someone is telling you, like, I have a past. And they're not getting into it. I do think in that case, it's worth digging into it. Yeah, yeah, like, can you say more?

Yeah, because I think you should overlook the faults of others, but how can you do that if you don't know? Yeah, if you don't know what actually happened, you know, and you have a frank conversation about it and what's happened since then and how a person has grown, how they've made certain choices since then to avoid that or, yeah, I think it's important not to ignore a person's past. Yeah, because also, like, if you just want to have a functional relationship, you're going to need to. understand how their past informs the way they are now and you know it is not digging but it's i think a responsible partner and a mature partner would be would say something along the lines of like okay you know if we're going to go any further i need to i i need to know what's informing like your pattern like i need to i need to you know like you can't hide that from me this is only tangentially related but i've heard jennifer lopez say that ruth bader ginsberg was giving her advice

when she was going to get married to a previous partner and just for people tracking the timeline and she told her like when you marry someone sometimes it's good to just be a little blind like just like don't notice don't notice some of the things like don't make it an issue which I thought was interesting advice I do conversations yeah

Ruth Peter Ginsburg and Jennifer Lopez yeah that's a real thing yeah no that is a real thing wow yeah I was the advice she gave her sometimes it's good to be a little blind yeah I don't disagree I don't totally disagree. I don't think that's like a crazy thought. No, no. When I heard it, I was like, I think that makes sense.

Like, once you're already married to the person, like, don't dwell on those things. Commit and you figure it out together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, again, it's contextual. It's like, what are you blind to? Yeah. It's like, it's totally contextual. Yes, totally. It has to be just little...

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Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Okay, you probably can't answer this, but I was wondering if there's a final breadcum for Joe's trajectory in season five. So he said, Joe says that Montrose has made some mistakes, but everyone wants him to run for political offices. This is kind of early on in part one. And then Joe says, he inspires me. Oh, right. So my question is, is Joe going to run for political office in season five? Yeah, I mean, I think, I can't, I can't say.

I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. But it certainly is interesting and tracks with, like, themes that are being explored. But I, you know. If they haven't thought about that or made that decision, they should like that would be such a good it's so good arena for a show it's true and a great arena to surround him with douchebags

well I can tell you that that the way that a climactic sort of series finale has been pitched to me is that it it tracks with with something along the lines of what you're saying in that in that all the arenas that

that Joe was sort of barred from which gave him the ability to justify all of his sort of his hatred, frankly. Like, oh, I'm not allowed into this space. I'm not allowed into this space. Basically, all of those barriers are going to fall down, I think. And so then you have a person who can no longer justify the way he was justifying his violence and his, you know. And so then you have somebody who's forced to confront themselves in, I suppose really a different way than they ever have before.

And so that's, I'm looking forward to it. This has been a really enjoyable breakdown of part two. I just want to ask you a final question. If you were keeping up with any of sort of the fan comments, what was your favorite inaccurate theory of what was happening in season four? Sort of like a plot twist that was wrong. I don't remember who said it. You might have even said it or you might have told me about the comment.

And I thought it was like, what? Joe has a brother. That wasn't me. That wasn't you guys. Okay, so I was in an interview. And somebody was like, oh, yeah, that's Joe's brother. And I was like, Joe's brother, that sounds so silly. Guys, Joe has a half-brother.

He does? So in the flashback, so if this person, I mean, I think they're right, when he sees his mom and she's like with another baby, that's her baby. Yeah. That's her baby, right? So Joe has a half-brother. So at some point, I heard somebody say that. And again, at first I thought it was like such.

a kind of like silly yeah silly sounding idea it was like oh it's like epic soap yeah then I realized he does have a half-brother stay tuned all right thank you thanks Ben

this is really enjoyable it feels like a not it feels like a not you know it feels like a not it feels like a not satisfying final question what's a good final question what was Joe like when he was if Joe could go back to his 12-year-old self what would be did we do that we did that first

he would stab him yeah stitcher